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srivijaya
13 December 2008, 03:27 PM
Could anyone please explain the spiritual significance of this story for a Shaivite contemplative.

The Ancient Legend of Sati

Dakshayani, one of the forms of the mother-goddess, was a daughter of Daksha Prajapati, a descendant of Brahma. She was married to Shiva but Daksha did not acknowledge Shiva's divine powers. Once King Daksha was celebrating a great sacrifice (yajna) to which neither Dakshayani nor Shiva were invited. Dakshayani, however, went to the her fatherís yajna uninvited but was greatly insulted by Daksha. As a result of her ill-treatment, she threw herself into the sacrificial fire and perished. Hence she came to be known as Sati, the chaste one.

When the news of Satiís death reached her husband, Shiva became inconsolable and rushed to Daksha's yajna. After the destruction of Dakshaís sacrifice, he wandered over the earth in the dance of destruction (tandava nritya) with Satiís dead body on his shoulder. The gods now became anxious to free Shiva from his infatuation and made a conspiracy to deprive him of his wifeís dead body. Thereupon Vishnu, while following Shiva, cut Satiís dead body on Shivaís shoulder piece by piece with his discus (chakra).

The places where pieces of Satiís body fell then became Peethas, i.e, holy seats or resorts of the mother-goddess. In all of these peethas, mother-goddess is represented to be constantly living in some form together with a Bhairava, i.e. a form of her consort Shiva. Bhairava is always present as a minor deity in the Shakti-Peethas and has a dog as his companion.

It is believed that parts of Satiís feet fell in Chintpurni.
http://www.geocities.com/chintpurni1/legend.html

Namaste

TatTvamAsi
13 December 2008, 10:18 PM
Namaste,

Interesting story: Sati & Shiva.

The fact that Daksha is a prajapati (mind-born son of Brahma) is significant. At the end, when he is beheaded, he receives a head of a goat after he repents and accepts Shiva.

My opinion, as I am no Vedic scholar, of this story is that the import is two-fold: one of Shiva's prominence (as compared to even that of a prajapati) and the devotion of a woman to her lord (husband) and vice-versa; as after Sati immolates herself, she is born in a fisherman community and Shiva comes there in the guise of a young lad who kills a shark (Nandi) to win the girl's (Sati's) hand in marriage.

In fact, someone correct me if I'm wrong, I think during the battle of Daksh'a yajna, "Badrakali" is created from Shiva's hair and she quells all the demons that are invoked by the rishis at the yajna (Bhrigu etc.).

With the superb computer technology and animation techniques available today, Hindu epics, puranas, stories would be THE BEST MOVIES IN THE WORLD!! We just need the funding, effort, and sensitivity of the directors of the projects!

I can't wait to see the animated Ramayana in 2010 (by Disney I think)!

MahaHrada
14 December 2008, 05:25 AM
we should look into the matter a litle more deeply and ask why did daksha exclude shiva from the sacrifical worship? The answer is that shiva is ghora as well as aghora, he is frightful as well as peaceful when he is frightful he is leading an impure lifestyle if beheld form the orthodox viewpoint, he is often clad in nothing but ashes taken from the funeral pyre, he is wearing snakes instead of the yajnopavita, he is using intocixant drinks, and hangs around at unclean places(smashans-burning grounds) with shady characters like vampires and ghuls (vetalas and bhutas). In short he is not exactly the kind of husband a father is proud to invite to his beautifuly arranged yajna.
Now his daughter of course is angry and dissapointed and also wants to teach her father a lesson, that it is a must to have sacrifical items prepared for shiva in such a great yajna, and he should be invited to partake, since -though he does not look familar and nice, he is nonetheless most dignified, he is even the most powerful and important among the devas, because he is the dissolver and therefore he is the only immortal one among the devas,(since the agent of dissolution cannot be dissolved) and she knows that he will eventually cause, asuming the form of Mahakala the great time, the dissolution of all that has ever come into existence, including the other deities. She cannot allow that her father thinks that the gods that shine in temporal glory only are those worthy of praise, but he that cannot be destroyed is unworthy of sacrifice, though it is to him all and everything must submit at the end of time, and must be sacrificied due to the natural laws of the universe?

So what to do to prevent such a spoilt sacrifice done by her own father which would have dire consequences, for her and everybody else also, if carried out in the way envisioned ?

Sati knows all the glory and function of shiva, in fact nobody else than her can fully know about shivas act of destruction, because she is an aspect of devi, and the devi is the only witness conscious at the time and after the dissolution of the universe (Mahapralaya) when all other devas have sunk into oblivion.

In the Lalita sahasranama Devi is called therefore:
"Maheshvara mahakalpa mahatandava sakshini" meaning: The witness of the dance of destruction that Mahesvara does at the end of time.

That is the reason why she knows that the ultimate sacrifice every jiva, and that includes the devas, will one day be submitted to, and no one can escape, is the destruction in the fire of shiva at the end of the mahakalpa. And therefore ultimately all sacrifices go to shiva alone, and he is doing the Maha Tandava to pleasure Shakti. If that is not taken into account the sacrifice is spoilt.

Adi Shankaracharya, who was also a great shakta, is expressing this thought, exalting the Devi above even shiva, in saundaryalahari in the following way:

svadehodbhUtAbhir-ghRNibhir-aNimAdyAbhir-abhito
nishhevye nitye tvAm-aham-iti sadA bhAvayati yaH /
kim AshcaryaM tasya trinayana-samRddhiM tRNayatA
mahA-samvartAgnir-viracayati nIrAjana-vidhiM //30//

nitye : Oh the Eternal One,
nishhevye : Oh the One adored by all,
yah : He who
sadA : always
bhAvayati : thinks of (meditates on)
tvAM : You
abhitaH : (You, who are) surrounded
ghRNibhiH : by rays
svadehodbhUtAbhiH : emanating from one’s own body
aNimAdhyAbhiH : such as aNimA and the like,
aham iti : as “I”,
kim Ashcaryam : What wonder is there (meaning, No wonder) that
tasya : for him
triNayatA : (who) makes into insignificance
trinayana-samRddhiM : the glory of the three eyed (Shiva),
maha-samvartAgniH : The Great Fire of Dissolution
viracayati : is (only) a performance of
nIrAjana-vidhiM : the rite of waving of Lights.

Sati´s act of throwing herself into the yajna is reminding us of the same fact elucidated by Adi Shankara , which is that she is indestructible and meditation and union with her, will change the great fire of dissolution merely into a perfomance of waving of lights in worship to her.

The sacrifice of offering up of oneself in the fire of a homa kunda (sacrifical fire pit) in a symbolic way is a most important part of many internal and external spiritual practices and also part of dikshas (viraja homa in sannyas diksha and similar sacrifices in agamic dikshas), where the sadhak is endowed with a new subtle body free from karma and consisting of mantra.

(This is only a short digression or remark linked with another thread.
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=25738
Like it is said in shiva sutras cittam mantrah, the mind of the sadhak is mantra , after the guru has done the internal fire sacrifce and the disciple has reinforced this by his own sadhana the normal sukshma sharira , impressed with karma and other doshas, is destroyed in the fire of the sacrifical pit, and exchanged with a different divine body. This idea has entered buddhism as well. In Vajrayana the Buddha has developed the trikayas and does not manifest through the usual subtle body.This I mention just to show that quotes from the shiva sutras etc. are sometimes only practical when the basic course of sadhana is correctly apllied,
Without diksha you usually have no mantra body, without mantra body you cannot become aware of the essence of the mantra body, and therefore the three verses of the second part of the shiva sutras do not apply to a non-iniitiate. This i mention only to show tantra is too complicated to venture into it without guidance.)

The whole subject of the offering into fire is prominent in Yoga and Tantra mostly in secret practicies connected with the regulation of prana and nadis, there are also even more deeper levels of interpretation of the interaction of agni(fire) surya(sun) soma (moon) in the body connected to the internal way the Yajna is done, so there is still a lot more to ponder upon and look for deeper esoteric levels of interpretation.

The sacrifice of the ego the karma and the impurities, but also sense impressions and desires, as fuel into the internal agni is a most sacred act superior to the outward performance of the sacrifice done with ghee, food and other objects.
Ultimately all external offerings implicate an offering of the limited self, or parts of that self. Sati is therefore reminding her father of the internal meaning of the sacrifice which meaning he did obviously not remember anymore.

Shakti Pithas

The topic of the shakti pithas that arose, according to the puranic account from the different members of the devi, according to other accounts the sacred places arose because of a journey of the devi throughout bharat, is intrinsically linked to the tantric tradition.

Besides being a reminder that bharat is the body of the devi, they demarcate places where the presence of shakti is imposed like as a stamp (mudra) on the objective world, prakriti, even if the whole of the material universe is identical to the devi, especially bharat is considered her very own body on this planet, and in bharat again there are sacred places where she is most powerfully present, assuming different natural formations.

These formations are the pithas. These power places are not only visited physically by pilgrimage but also transfered from the macrocosm and imposed upon and integrated into the material and subtle body (nadi system) and prana of the tantric sadhaka during sadhana by the practice of Pitha Nyasa.
In that way his own body becomes connected to the body of devi as bharata mata. I like to remind again, that tantra philosophy does not accept the unreality of matter as in buddhism and mayavada, but prakriti is concrete and real and equated with shiva and shakti in an inextricable union (samarasya), of knower, means of knowledge, and known, the divine is both transcendent and immanent.

The concept of the pithas has been taken over by Vajrayana but sadly there it looses its full significance and beauty, since buddhism is non theistic and does not belive in the reality of matter and the immanence of the divine shakti in formations of the natural landscape.

By the way the important swayambhu stupa in Nepal is similarly to the concept of the shakti pitha belived to once have been a natural representation of the adibuddha in the form of a natural blue flame, this same flame was regarded also as a manifestation of adinath shiva. Later the stupa was built around the flame, and i heard stories that only in this century did the stupa cool down, before it was warm and that could be felt physically when touching the surface, due to the fire that is supposed to be still enclosed in the Stupa.

I myself was living near there in the 80ies and there are some places where one could still ignite the water of a small stream with a match because of the natural gas that is occuring in the mixture, so the story of the huge blue flame is not a so called legend, it is based on facts.

The shakti pitha at Jwalamukhi H.P. is another sacred shakti place connected with flames that are natural and self ignited gas flames, here the tongue of sati fell down. The flame shape of course reminds one of a tongue.

Of course the reason why Shiva immediately started his tandava dance of destruction for her, was because he knew that with her sacrifice she was enacting exactly that very moment of the revealation of her indestructible nature during Mahapralaya.

In the end of that story her divine marks where stamped into the very fabric of the universe right into the very atoms of the punyabhumi. Now in destroying the earth he would have destroyed her very body. Thats why his dance calmend down and the earth was saved from premature destruction.

atanu
14 December 2008, 11:02 AM
Namaste Friends,

Very valuable inputs have been provided and all perspectives are correct. Devoid of key inputs from Vedas and Satapatha Brahmana, the story will however, not make full sense.

This is the Svistakrit Sacrfice that is called "Well Offered". Till a sacrifice is well offered it will not be complete and Prajapati - the offerer, the leader of the rite will have a severed-impaired intelligence.

Shiva is the Atman, full sthanu (immovable absolute). He is called Vastavya -- the residual truth. Rig Veda says that Rudra is never separated from the highest Shakti. Rig Veda also says that Rudra yieldeth to no second. In fact He is ONE WITHOUT A SECOND. There is no question of shakti separating out as a second and dying.

Vishnu is called fast moving and far striding. Rig Veda says that Vishnu owns the highest Shakti.

Sati is the consort of Sat-Vastavya Rudra and Sati is manifestation of the movement, Vishnu, which in one sense is Maya, since it now appears to have partitioned the Shakti.

But there was never any partition and there will never be any partition and Shiva-Sati-Vishnu are one Atman of Prajapati.


Prajapati sacrifices with everything and to every Deva yet leaving out his own Atman. He fails to sacrifice self to the Self.

The story is from the view point of beheaded Prajapati who lacked knowledge of Shiva Atman and forgot that his so-called daughter shakti is eternally of Shiva, of Atman. He then perceives (Rig Veda says invents) Shiva's angry dance, the movement, which is the Vishnu -- the Universe as fragmenting Shakti -- which being all pervasive can never be fragmented, which never dies, and which never separates from Shiva-Vishnu Vastavya.


Satapatha Brahamana
1:7:3:13. [The Hotri continues to recite]: 'May he sacrifice to his own greatness!' When, on that occasion, he asks him (Agni) to bring hither the deities, he also makes him bring hither his own greatness; but before this no worship of any kind has been offered to 'his (Agni's) own greatness:' and he therefore now gratifies him, and thus that (fire) has been established so as to prevent failure on his (the sacrificer's) part. This is the reason why he says 'may he sacrifice to his own greatness.'
-----------------------------

BG
13. 17. And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates also.


13. 18. That, the Light of all lights, is beyond darkness; it is said to be knowledge, the Knowable and the goal of knowledge, seated in the hearts of all.
13.28 Samam sarveshu bhooteshu tishthantam parameshwaram;


Vinashyatswavinashyantam yah pashyati sa pashyati.
13. 28. He sees, who sees the Supreme Lord, existing equally in all beings, the unperishing within the perishing.
13.29 Samam pashyan hi sarvatra samavasthitameeshwaram;
Na hinastyaatmanaa’tmaanam tato yaati paraam gatim.
13.29. Because he who sees the same Lord dwelling equally everywhere does not destroy the self by the self, he goes to the highest goal.
-------------------------Prajapati failed to see the same Lord dwelling equally everywhere and in himself and thereby destroyed the self by the self. Thinking that Shiva is another person outside of me and also outside of others is the mistake. Sacrifice remains incomplete till self is sacrificed to Self.


Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
14 December 2008, 11:27 AM
SVETASVATARA UPANISHAD.


FOURTH ADHYAYA.


16. He who knows Siva (the blessed) hidden in all beings, like the subtile film that rises from out the clarified butter, alone enveloping everything, he who knows the god, is freed from all fetters.


17. That god, the maker of all thing, the great Self, always dwelling in the heart of man, is perceived by the heart, the soul, the mind; they who know it become immortal.


18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence.
Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
14 December 2008, 08:13 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

atanu writes


Shiva is the Atman, full sthanu (immovable absolute). He is called Vastavya -- the residual truth


Very rewarding reading atanu and MahaHrada, thank you both for your posts.


And who is this sati?
We can look at satī सती , She is considered Truth (sat) personified. This connnects nicely to atanu's 'residual truth' offered above.
Satī सती also means good and virtuous; this word satī later becomes suttī, a faithful wife; satī is also fragrant earth.
sāti साति too, is gaining, winning or acquisition - what is key here is sa.
sa स by itself is considered a noun for Śiva and/or Viṣṇu; a noun for knowledge, or meditation.
If we extend the a and make it sā सा it becomes giving, bestowing, granting. And who does this? Lakṣmī or Gaurī, sā another name for them both.

And as mentioned satī is grounded in sat सत् - truth, being, existence, that which really is, entity or existence , essence (sāra) and culminates in sattā which is (feminie) existence, being, and brings us back to satī.

Hence satī & sattā + sat : satī ( Śrī Devī ,Pārvatī, Gaurī, Śaivī is śakti) + sat (Śiva¹, Maheśvara) together , are One or Paramārtha - the highest purpose, Paramātman or the Supreme Self, many call Parameśvara the Supreme Lord that is unsupassible (anuttara - without equal).

pranams

words

We know Śiva is called dakṣādhvaraharāya, the Destroyer (hara) of Dakṣa's sacrifice (adhvara):


Dakṣa दक्ष is able, fit, adroit, expert, clever, dexterous, industrious , intelligent. Dakṣa was one of the prajāpati-s ( lord of creatures) created by Brahmā i.e. Marīci , Atri , Angiras , Pulastya , Pulaka , Kratu , Vasiṣṭha , Pracetas or Dakṣa , Bhṛgu , Nārada. The Mahābhārata mentions 14;
adhvara अध्वर is sacrifice, also means non-injuring; this is rooted in dhvṛ ध्वृ which means to bend , cause to fall , hurt , injure; hence a+dhvṛ is to not (a) injure (dhvṛ);
hara हर is taking away , carrying off , removing , destroying.
Hence Śiva is recognized as the Destroyer (hara) of Dakṣa's sacrifice (adhvara).

srivijaya
15 December 2008, 04:11 AM
These power places are not only visited physically by pilgrimage but also transfered from the macrocosm and imposed upon and integrated into the material and subtle body (nadi system) and prana of the tantric sadhaka during sadhana by the practice of Pitha Nyasa.
In that way his own body becomes connected to the body of devi as bharata mata. I like to remind again, that tantra philosophy does not accept the unreality of matter as in buddhism and mayavada, but prakriti is concrete and real and equated with shiva and shakti in an inextricable union (samarasya), of knower, means of knowledge, and known, the divine is both transcendent and immanent.

The concept of the pithas has been taken over by Vajrayana but sadly there it looses its full significance and beauty, since buddhism is non theistic and does not belive in the reality of matter and the immanence of the divine shakti in formations of the natural landscape.

Dear Friends,
The replies to my initial question have far exceeded any expectations, or any hopes I had for a reply. I wish to express my gratitude to all of you for taking the time to reply in such a complete and profound manner.
It is impossible to convey joy on the internet but it has been a long time since I have read such wonderful posts on any forum.

As you know, I am Buddhist but a somewhat eclectic and non-conventional one at that. As MahaHrada knows from our correspondence elsewhere, I am also a practitioner of Highest Yoga Tantra of the Samvara cycle, and I greatly value his knowledge in this area. I would agree with him that some Buddhist schools impede, or hinder the full understanding of the process with an insistence on according intellectual teachings of emptiness a crucial status. This creates a tension within the practice, as an element is introduced which is clearly out of place. In a non-dualistic framework, even considerations of emptiness (however one defines it) are superfluous and counterproductive. My experience of other Buddhist schools has helped me to see that even within Buddhism there are paths which do not rely on such teachings. On one hand we risk reifying profound states into 'objects' to be beheld dualistically. On the other hand we risk a futile process of negating all objects of knowledge in a nihilistic way.

It is truly the razor's edge upon which we walk.

What has been written parallels non-conceptual insight I have gained through practice and I have drawn some radical conclusions from that insight. I figured that this story was of critical importance in unlocking the deeper aspects of truth.

Atanu wrote "But there was never any partition and there will never be any partition and Shiva-Sati-Vishnu are one Atman of Prajapati."
It is the process of this partition, in a conventional sense, which interests me. The fact that the Devi is scattered throughout the body of the contemplative. A pathway to the ultimate union - the non-dualistic merging of the two can be intuited when we understand how and why the partition took place. It has parallels with ideas of the Anima.

There is one more story I have encountered, which I think illustrates what we are discussing very wonderfully:

Story associated with Trimbakeshwar
At the time of the marriage of Lord Shiva with Parvati, all the Devarshis gathered together. Brahmadev, the creator of the Universe, seeing the beauty of Parvati, had a discharge of semen. Lord Shiva observing this, offered him water of Ganges, the purest water and said, "you will wipe off your sin by this water". Brahmadev kept the holy water in his kamandalu (a particular container made out of dried fruit carried by Sadhus) and was purified by its bath.
http://www.nashik.com/travel/trimbakeshwar.html

This would seem to indicate the mind (Brahmadev) which, having moved away from the ultimate state of Shiva, dualistically objectifies the Devi and does not understand the union of which Atanu wrote.

Would my assessment be correct here?

Namaste

MahaHrada
15 December 2008, 05:49 AM
What i like to emphasise again and again is that the tantra is averse to the Mayavada doctrine.
In other words it belives that the physical universe is the the very body of the Shakti. Shiva appears as akula and shakti as kula, Shiva is the one consciousness without parts (akula) and shakti the mirror in which this consciousness experiences all imaginable relative realities.

The one is definend as light from a lamp (prakasha) the other as reflecting objects (vimarsha), giving rise to visibilty, this is the metapher.
Vision is only possible when both come together, light and reflection.

These polarities are considered to be in a state of advaita, which means not two, it does not mean one, they are not (a) two (dvaita).

Which means that when we realise the aim of amritva or shivatva, union with shiva or nectar of immortality, it is not necessary to move from a state of diversity to a state of oneness.

On the contrary it is to realise that diversity and unity exist in a blurred state (as in quantum physics) it is non-dual or not-two with unity.

So unity or formless cosnciousness remains in his state, the particular remains in his state, unity is realised, but that does not affect the difference, it remains.

If we consider that we have to move a certain way from duality and impurity towards unity, we apparently think these two differ from each other, that is not the import of advaita as understood in the tantras.

In the tantra wherever you look whether at a natural formation of stones or a flame of gas, a murti, another human being, all theses particulars are perceived as shakti, so there is no need to go to any other place, be it an imagined spiritual goal of moksha or real like a pilgrimage spot, you have to elimnate the error, the error, the maya, or impurity is that you do not realise the full identity of the kula with the akula.

Mapping the pithas on the body shows that we do not necessarily need to visit these places in the real world, they also exist as places of power within us.

In the kula system the akula (brahman of the upanishads) is not exalted above the lowest ladder of the particular.

It teaches you to live in totality, there is no break in the experience, everything is absolutely equal (state of sama in nath parampara) to any other thing.

Like my guruīs guru used to say "Nath yogis turn ashes to god and gods to ashes."

But to reach into that state it is extremely important to become aware that advaita in tantra does not mean one but not two.

That is to mean, though two thing seem apparently different and stay different, both partake of the same essence, it is the state of our consciousness which decides whether we can see a god or only ash.

I will cite lakshman joo here about the kula: In the practice of the kula system you have to realise the totality of the universe in one particle.
and:
siva which is realized in prithvi tattva is the same level the same reality of siva which is realized in siva tattva.

So in this system it is irrrelevant whether you are engaged in the process of contemplation of the formless or the form.

Like it is said in Vajrayana also Samsara is equated with Nirvana.

This is a radically differring approach then the advaita vedanta that atanu is propagating, where all notions of difference are considered as not really existing but are only temporarly caused by maya.

Here in the tantra we celebrate every particular as a real existent and visible manifestation of shakti, non dual with the formless shiva, and we do not need to move from the particular to the one, creating a duality as it where between illusion and the real, instead we consider the highest state as amritatva or shivatatva, the blissful state of realisation of non duality between the particular and the formless.

Here nothing needs to be changed, everything is perfect as it is, the only imperfection is that we do not realise exactly that inborn state of natural perfection (sahaja) and therefore are caught up in diverse illusions and desires. A similar idea is taught in vayrajana dzog chen, which emanated from the udiyana pitha.

srivijaya
15 December 2008, 06:01 AM
Here nothing needs to be changed everything is perfect as it is, the only imperfection is that we do not realise exactly that inborn state of natural perfection (sahaja) and therefore are caught up in diverse illusions and desires. A similar idea is taught in vayrajana dzog chen, which emanated from the udiyana pitha.

Indeed. Well said. Very much equates with Dzog Chen as you rightly point out. I think the doctrine of Spanda concurs with this view. I absolutely agree that introducing the concept of 'illusion' can lead to much proliferation.

namaste

atanu
15 December 2008, 06:04 AM
Atanu wrote "But there was never any partition and there will never be any partition and Shiva-Sati-Vishnu are one Atman of Prajapati."
It is the process of this partition, in a conventional sense, which interests me.

Namaste Srivijaya,

I do not know whether the following will interest anyone or not? Nonetheless.

The process of separations are depicted in a few stories of Sataptaha Brahmana. Prajapati is one overlord, the primeval man of whom we are all parts. What was separated by Prajapati at the beginning of time by his notions continue to take effect even today with us.

In one instance, Prajapati BrahmA (Rudra only as per Rig Veda) was eluded by Usha, his own light, his own dauhgter, to lust. This brought out anger in form of Rudra, who snipped off a head of BrahmA. But that separation gave rise to a vidya called Madhu Vidya from Dadhichi Rishi to heal the defective sacrifice.

Second, separation takes place when Vishnu is said to have swelled with Pride. At that time also. Vishnu's head was severed and Vishnu's body (the firmament) and the Vishnu's head (the Sun) became as if separate. On this occassion also, a sacrifice named Pravargya was instituted to heal the separation.

Third instance, of ignorance of indwelling Shiva already depicted above, led to Svistakrit sacrifice -- sacrificing one's own agni by agni. Recognising one's own life and one's own intelligence as from the indwelling God.

There is a fourth instance where separation does not take place but all joy leave Indra. Indra immensely disliked Bheda (duality) and thus killed Visvarupa --fathered by Visvakarma, who became extremely angry and prohibited Indra from participating in Soma sacrifice. Indra forcibly took away Soma but could not digest it, which went out through all pores of Indra, making Indra lifeless but not dead. Aswins and Saraswati restored Indra to His glory. Saraswati and Aswins again employed Madhu Vidya to bring Indra to life.
----------------------

Let us go through this very intersting set of verses. Mental agnis, as I understand refer to the desires. Agni is equated to warmth, desire, and death, yama.

Sataptha Brahmana

Part IV THIRD BRÂHMANA.


10:5:3:1. Verily, in the beginning this (universe) was, as it were, neither non-existent nor existent; in the beginning this (universe), indeed, as it were, existed and did not exist: there was then only that Mind.


10:5:3:2. Wherefore it has been said by the Rishi (Rig-veda X, 129, 1), 'There was then neither the non-existent nor the existent;' for Mind was, as it were, neither existent nor non-existent.


10:5:3:3. This Mind, when created, wished to become manifest,--more defined, more substantial: it sought after a self (body). It practised austerity: it acquired consistency. It then beheld thirty-six thousand Arka-fires of its own self, composed of mind, built up of mind: mentally alone they were established (on sacrificial hearths) and mentally built up; mentally the cups (of Soma) were drawn thereat mentally they chanted, and mentally they recited on (near) them,--whatever rite is performed at the sacrifice, whatever sacrificial rite there is, that was performed mentally only, as a mental performance, on those (fires or fire-altars) composed of mind, and built up of mind. And whatever it is that (living) beings here conceive in their mind that was done regarding those (mental Agnis):--they establish them (on the hearths) and build them up (as fire-altars); they draw the cups for them; they chant on (near) them and recite hymns on them,--of that extent was the development of Mind, of that extent its creation,--so great is Mind: thirty-six thousand Arka-fires; and each of these as great as that former (fire-altar) was.


10:5:3:4. That Mind created Speech. This Speech, when created, wished to become manifest,--more defined, more substantial: it sought after a self. It practised austerity: it acquired consistency. It beheld thirty-six thousand Arka-fires of its own self, composed of speech, built up of speech: with speech they were established, and with speech built up; with speech the cups were drawn thereat; with speech they chanted, and with speech they recited on them--whatever rite is performed at the sacrifice, whatever sacrificial rite there is, that was performed by speech alone, as a vocal performance, on those (fires) composed of speech, and built up of speech. And whatever beings here speak by speech that was done regarding those (fires): they establish them and build them up; they draw the cups for them; they chant on them and recite hymns on them,--of that extent was the development of Speech, of that extent its creation,--so great is Speech: thirty-six thousand Arka-fires; and each of these as great as that former (fire-altar) was.


10:5:3:5. That Speech created the Breath. This Breath, when created, wished to become manifest,--more defined, more substantial: it sought after a self. It practised austerity: it acquired consistency. It beheld thirty-six thousand Arka-fires of its own self, composed of breath, built up of breath: with breath they were established, and with breath built up; with breath the cups were drawn thereat; with breath they chanted and with breath they recited on them,--whatever rite is performed at the sacrifice, whatever sacrificial rite there is, that was performed by breath alone, as a breathing-performance, on those (fires) composed of breath, and built up of breath. And whatever beings here breathe with breath that was done regarding those (fires):--they establish them, and build them up; they draw the cups for them; they chant on them and recite hymns on them,--of that extent was the development of Breath, of that extent was its creation,--so great is Breath: thirty-six thousand Arka-fires; and each of these as great as that former (fire-altar) was.


10:5:3:6. That Breath created the Eye. This Eye, when created, wished to become manifest,--more defined, more substantial: it sought after a self. It practised austerity: it acquired consistency. It beheld thirty-six thousand Arka-fires of its own self, composed of the eye, built up of the eye: by means of the eye they were established, and by means of the eye built up; by the eye the cups were drawn thereat; by means of the eye they chanted and recited hymns on them,--whatever rite is performed as the sacrifice, whatever sacrificial rite there is, that was performed by the eye alone, as an eye-performance, on those (fires) composed of eye, and built up of the eye. And whatever beings here see with the eye that was done regarding those (fires):they establish them and build them up; they draw the cups for them; they chant on them and recite hymns on them,--of that extent was the development of the Eye, of that extent its creation,--so great is the Eye: thirty-six thousand Arka-fires; and each of these as great as that former (fire-altar) was.


10:5:3:7. That Eye created the Ear. This Ear, when created, wished to become manifest,--more defined, more substantial: it sought after a self. It practised austerity: it acquired consistency. It beheld thirty-six thousand Arka-fires of its own self, composed of the ear, built up of the ear: by means of the ear they were established, and by means of the ear built up; by the ear the cups were drawn thereat; by means of the ear they chanted and recited hymns on them,--whatever rite is performed at the sacrifice, whatever sacrificial rite there is, that was performed by the ear alone, as an ear-performance, on those (fires) composed of ear, and built up of the ear. And whatever beings here hear with the ear that was done regarding those (fires):--they establish them and build, them up; they draw the cups for them; they chant on them and recite hymns on them,--of that extent was the development of the Ear, of that extent its creation,--so great is the Ear: thirty-six thousand Arka-fires; and each of these as great as that former (fire-altar) was.


10:5:3:8. That Ear created Work, and this condensed itself into the vital airs, into this compound, this composition of food; for incomplete is work without the vital airs, and incomplete are the vital airs without work.


10:5:3:9. This Work, when created, wished to become manifest,--more defined, more substantial: it sought after a self. It practised austerity: it acquired consistency. It beheld thirty-six thousand Arka-fires of its own self, composed of work, built up of (or by) work: by work they were established, and by work built up; by work the cups were drawn thereat; by work they chanted and recited hymns on them,--whatever rite is performed at the sacrifice, whatever sacrificial rite there is, that was performed by work alone, as a work-performance, on those (fires) composed of work, and built up of work. And whatever beings here work by work that was done regarding those (fires);--they establish them and build them up; they draw the cups for them; they chant on them and recite hymns on them,--of that extent was the development of Work, of that extent its creation,--so great is Work: thirty-six thousand Arka-fires; and each of these as great as that former (fire-altar) was.


10:5:3:10. That Work created the Fire,--Fire, doubtless, is more manifest than Work, for by work (sacrificial performance) they produce it, and by work they kindle it.


10:5:3:11 This Fire, when created, wished to become manifest,--more defined, more substantial: it sought after a self. It practised austerity: it acquired consistency. It beheld thirty-six thousand Arka-fires of its own self, composed of fire, built up of fire: with fire they were established, and with fire built up; with fire the cups were drawn thereat; with fire they chanted and recited hymns on them;--whatever rite is performed at the sacrifice, whatever sacrificial rite there is, that was performed with fire alone, as a fire-performance, on those (fires) composed of fire, and built up of fire. And whatever fire beings here kindle that was done regarding those (fires):--they establish them and build them up; they draw the cups for them; they chant on them and recite hymns on them,--of that extent was the development of Fire, of that extent its creation,--so great is Fire: thirty-six thousand Arka-fires; and each of these as great as that former (fire-altar) was.


10:5:3:12. These fires (altars), in truth, are knowledge-built; and all beings at all times build them for him who knows this, even whilst he is asleep: by knowledge alone these fires (altars) are indeed built for him who knows this.--------------------------------
The Prajapati-Purusha demarcated the knowledge (Pragnya Ghana, consciousness) into functions, parts and shapes and that arrangement persists. It is Vishnu who cuts up Shakti as if in parts, but mentally only.

When Speech (Sati) in form of Work (led by desires in the form of agni) and finally in form of Jihva- tongue of fire, leaves the Mind (Shiva), there is Universe. There is only one way to unite them -- to see the connecting consciousness afforded by silence of body, speech, and mind (obtained by kripa).

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
15 December 2008, 08:52 AM
That is to mean, though two thing seem apparently different and stay different, both partake of the same essence, it is the state of our consciousness which decides whether we can see a god or only ash.

I will cite lakshman joo here about the kula: In the practice of the kula system you have to realise the totality of the universe in one particle.
and:
siva which is realized in prithvi tattva is the same level the same reality of siva which is realized in siva tattva.



Namaste MahaHrada,

Exactly, I agree whole heartedly. First let us realise shiva in prithvi tattwa and in all other tattwas.

Om Namaha Shivaya

MahaHrada
15 December 2008, 09:05 AM
Namaste Srivijaya,

I do not know whether the following will interest anyone or not? Nonetheless.

I think the presented exposition is very interesting and it is my opinion that several important themes of the tantric shaivaite and shakta tradition which are especially associated with the shakti peethas have a strong connection with the aforementioned vedic themes especially those centered around the rudra homa such as the shatarudrIyaM juhoti, and the somayaga such as the agnistoma, these vedic performances where internalised and formend the background of the the Yoga of the Kapalikas or Mahavratins, those tantrics of the terrible bhairava stream.
The tantric Tradition as a whole can be clearly traced to a set of themes occuring in the vedas, amongst these also features most prominently, the theme of the cutting off of brahmas head and the wanderings of bhairava with the curse of the skull of brahma stuck on his hand, which was re enacted, by the tantric shaivas like the Kapalikas Aghors and Nath yogis, even by their outward appearance, the use of skull implements, or implements that resemble skull bowls, these themes are also present in the Kaula traditions and exported to the buddhist Vajrayana.
The skull used is ones own skull and the ingredients of the amrita are destilled from ones own body.
In the internalisation of the vedic rudra homa such as the shatarudrIyaM juhoti the agni manifesting as the fierce rudra in his own body, is satieted by the Kapalika in his own body by using the soma oozing from the gajadanta or chandra nadi in the head, in the sukshma sharira.


This satiation of rudra is leading to the manifestation of the highest state
which is celebrated with this last mantra from the shatarudrIyaM juhoti, where again the unity of rudra and agni is praised.

rudró vA eShá yád agníH sá yáthA vyAghráH kruddhás tíShThaty eváM vA eShá etárhi sáMcitam etáir úpa tiShThate namaskAráir eváinaGM shamayati

rudra is verily [manifest] in this fire; just as tiger stands in fury, so also he stands. When the [fire-altar] is piled with these [bricks], he worships [rudra], and indeed with homage he soothes him.

These mantras where used by the Mahavratin when engaged in the internal fire sacrifice where his own body became the piled up altar, his own skull the soma cup, and his food the sacrifical charu.

atanu
15 December 2008, 11:17 AM
To each according to taste



THE BUILDING OF THE SACRED FIRE-ALTAR

SATARUDRIYA LUSTRATION, INSTALLMENT AND CONSECRATION OF FIRE, AND SOMA-SACRIFICE


9:1:1:2. They spake, 'Let us gather together food for him: therewith we will appease him!' They gathered for him that food, the Sântadevatya, and thereby appeased him; and inasmuch as they thereby appeased (sam) the god (deva), it is called Sântadevatya;--Sântadevatya, doubtless, is here called mystically 'Satarudriya,' for the gods love the mystic. And in like manner does this Sacrificer now bestow upon him that highest form, immortality. Flaming he there stands, longing for food. He gathers for him that food, the Sântadevatya, and thereby appeases him.

9:1:1:3. He offers wild sesamum seeds. He grows when he is being built up: he grows for (the consumption) of every kind of food. And wild sesamum seeds represent both kinds of food, the cultivated as well as the wild-growing: inasmuch as they are sesamum seeds they are a cultivated (kind of food), and inasmuch as they ripen on unploughed land they are wild-growing; he thus satisfies him with both kinds of food, the cultivated as well as the wild-growing.


9:1:1:6. And as to why he performs the Satarudriya offering. When Pragâpati had become disjointed, the deities departed from him. Only one god did not leave him, to wit, Manyu (wrath): extended he remained within. He (Pragâpati) cried, and the tears of him that fell down settled on Manyu. He became the hundred-headed, thousand-eyed, hundred-quivered Rudra. And the other drops that fell down, spread over these worlds in countless numbers, by thousands; and inasmuch as they originated from crying (rud), they were called Rudras (roarers). That hundred-headed, thousand-eyed, hundred-quivered Rudra, with his bow strung, and his arrow fitted to the string, was inspiring fear, being in quest of food. The gods were afraid of him.

9:1:1:7. They spake unto Pragâpati 'We are afraid of this one, lest he should hurt us!' He spake, 'Gather food for him, and appease him therewith!' They gathered for him that food, the Satarudriya (offering), and thereby appeased him; and inasmuch as they thereby appeased (sam) the hundred-headed (satasîrsha) Rudra, it is called Satasîrsharudrasamanîya,--and satasîrsharudrasamanîya, doubtless, is what they mystically call Satarudriya, for the gods love the mystic. And in like manner does this (Sacrificer) now gather for him that food, the Satarudriya, and appease him thereby.

9:1:1:8. He offers gavedhukâ flour; for from the place where that deity lay disjointed, gavedhukâ plants (coix barbata) sprang forth: he thus gratifies him by his own portion, by his own life-sap.

9:1:1:9. He offers by means of an arka-leaf; for that tree sprang from the resting-place of that god: he thus gratifies him by his own portion, by his own life-sap.

---------------

To each according to taste. Lord Rudra is satisfied by food consisting of satarudriya (Sântadevatya) mantras, sesamum seeds, flour and leaf, because these constitute Prajapati's body and sap.


Om Namah Shivaya

srivijaya
15 December 2008, 11:50 AM
Dear atanu,
Many thanks for the information. Could this also be seen as a description of the re-birth process, as it has shades of meaning found in Tibetan teachings on this subject?

As well as the winds/ energies which provide a unique constellation for each life, a being in the human realm takes one gender.

I wondered if, at some point, the the 'other' unborn gender is "sliced apart" and deposited within the subtle body, taking the role of Sati?

Namaste

yajvan
15 December 2008, 12:59 PM
Shiva's angry dance, the movement, which is the Vishnu -- the Universe as fragmenting Shakti -- which being all pervasive can never be fragmented, which never dies, and which never separates from Shiva-Vishnu Vastavya.

Om Namah Shivaya


The ṛig ( some write ṛk, ṛg, ṛik, etc. ) veda, 1.22.17 sūktā , offers the following on this Viṣṇu.
The ṛṣi is Medhātithiḥ Kānvaḥ and meter (chandas) is gāyatri

idam viṣṇur vichakrame tredhā nidadhe
padam samūḷham asya pāmsure ||
this viṣṇu strode in three ways, placed His feet,
firmly established of Him in the region having
the dust of His feet.

That is, from viṣṇu's 3 strides and the dust created from His his feet, is the cause of the birth of the Universe.

pranams

atanu
15 December 2008, 08:07 PM
The ṛig ( some write ṛk, ṛg, ṛik, etc. ) veda, 1.22.17 sūktā , offers the following on this Viṣṇu.

The ṛṣi is Medhātithiḥ Kānvaḥ and meter (chandas) is gāyatri

idam viṣṇur vichakrame tredhā nidadhe
padam samūḷham asya pāmsure ||
this viṣṇu strode in three ways, placed His feet,
firmly established of Him in the region having
the dust of His feet.

That is, from viṣṇu's 3 strides and the dust created from His his feet, is the cause of the birth of the Universe.
pranams


Namaste Yajvan Ji,

Thank you for the verses. i am going to such length because MahahRada has put up few questions on Advaita in a thread which was begun to seek explanation of a story. I am recording the following here so that at least some may appreciate whether the PARTLESS can be known by a PART? And whether without knowing the PARTLESS, a sadhaka can see Shiva in earth, in trees, in oneself and in others? Can sadhaka internalise the following?



18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence.To me the three steps of Vishnu correspond to the three states of AUM most logically. And surely, AUM is everything. The speech, Cow, Gauri, issuing from primeval MIND (Atman) is all this. The Universe itself is thought of as Vishnu, who is lying here disjointed -- the Sun being His head. Yet, the movement alone is not the goal. The highest Vyom, from where the movement originates is the goal. Prajapati's (and everyone's) Khtra power is Rudra-Pradhana, whom the Sacrificer appeases with Rudriya.

Yet Pradhana is also not the goal. Manyu is Wrath. Rudra-Varuna-Indra-Mitra are the forms of this one Pradhana. These are called quickeners. Without transcending Manyu there is no chance of ever understanding that the goal is PARTLESS SAMAM:


When men shall roll up space as if it were a piece of hide, then there will be an end of misery without one’s cultivating the Knowledge of the Lord, who is without parts, without actions, tranquil, blameless, unattached, the supreme bridge to Immortality, and like a fire that has consumed all its fuel.Partlessness and actionlessness do not seem very glamorous goal but without knowing/experiencing the partless and actionless, the freedom of immortality is elusive. But first, before the partless is known the anger-the fire, the wrath, has to be overcome as below.

-------------------



SIXTH ADHYÂYA. FIRST BRÂHMANA.
11:6:1:1. Now, Bhrigu, the son of Varuna, deemed himself superior to his father Varuna in knowledge. Varuna became aware of this: 'He deems himself superior to me in knowledge,' he thought.
11:6:1:2. He said, 'Go thou eastward, my boy; and having seen there what thou shalt see, go thou southwards; and having seen there what thou shalt see, go thou westward; and having seen there what thou shalt see, go thou northward; and having seen there what thou shalt see, go thou toward the northern of those two intermediate quarters in front, and tell me then what thou shalt see there.'
11:6:1:3. He then went forth from thence eastward, and lo, men were dismembering men, hewing off their limbs one by one, and saying, 'This to thee, this to me!' He said, 'Horrible! woe is me! men here have dismembered men, hewing off their limbs one by one!' They replied, 'Thus, indeed, these dealt with us in yonder world, and so we now deal with them in return.' He said, 'Is there no atonement for this?'--'Yes, there is,' they replied.--'What is it?'--'Thy father knows.'
11:6:1:4. He went forth from thence southward, and lo, men were dismembering men, cutting up their limbs one by one, and saying, 'This to thee, this to me!' He said, 'Horrible! woe is me! men here have dismembered men, cutting up their limbs one by one!' They replied, 'Thus, indeed, these dealt with us in yonder world, and so we now deal with them in return.' He said, 'Is there no atonement for this?'--'Yes, there is,' they replied.--'What is it?'--'Thy father knows.'
11:6:1:5. He went forth from thence westward, and lo, men, sitting still, were being eaten by men, sitting still! He said, 'Horrible! woe is me! men, sitting still, are eating men, sitting still!' They replied, 'Thus, indeed, these have dealt with us in yonder world, and so we now deal with them in return.' He said, 'Is there no atonement for this? Yes, there is,' they replied.--'What is it? Thy father knows.'
11:6:1:6. He went forth from thence northward, and lo, men, crying aloud, were being eaten by men, crying aloud! He said, 'Horrible! woe is me! men, crying aloud, here are eating men, crying aloud!' They replied, 'Thus, indeed, these dealt with us in yonder world, and so we now deal with them in return.' He said, 'Is there no atonement for this?'--'Yes, there is,' they replied.--'What is it? Thy father knows.'
11:6:1:7. He went forth from thence toward the northern of those two intermediate quarters in front, and lo, there were two women, one beautiful, one over-beautiful: between them stood a man, black, with yellow eyes, and a staff in his hand. On seeing him, terror seized him, and he went home, and sat down. His father said to him, 'Study thy day's lesson (of scripture): why dost thou not, study thy lesson?' He said, What am I to study? there is nothing whatever.' Then Varuna knew, 'He has indeed seen it!
11:6:1:8. He spake, ‘As to those men whom thou sawest in the eastern region being dismembered by men hewing off their limbs one by one, and saying, "This to thee, this to me!" they were the trees: when one puts fire-wood from trees on (the fire) he subdues the trees, and conquers the world of trees.
11:6:1:9. ‘And as to those men whom thou sawest in the southern region being dismembered by men cutting up their limbs one by one, and saying, "This to thee, this to me!" they were the cattle; when one makes offering with milk he subdues the cattle, and conquers the world of cattle.
11:6:1:10. ‘And as to those men thou sawest in the western region who, whilst sitting still, were being eaten by men sitting still, they were the herbs: when one illumines (the Agnihotra milk) with a straw, he subdues the herbs, and conquers the world of herbs.
11:6:1:11. ‘And as to those men thou sawest in the northern region who, whilst crying aloud, were being eaten by men crying aloud, they were the waters: when one pours water to (the Agnihotra milk), he subdues the waters, and conquers the world of waters.
11:6:1:12. ‘And as to those two women whom thou sawest, one beautiful and one over-beautiful,--the beautiful one is Belief: when one offers the first libation (of the Agnihotra) he subdues Belief, and conquers Belief; and the over-beautiful one is Unbelief: when one offers the second libation, he subdues Unbelief, and conquers Unbelief.
11:6:1:13. 'And as to the black man with yellow eyes, who was standing between them with a staff in his hand, he was Wrath: when, having poured water into the spoon, one pours (the libation into the fire), he subdues Wrath, and conquers Wrath; and, verily, whosoever, knowing this, offers the Agnihotra, thereby conquers everything, and subdues everything.------------------------------------------------------

Verily the final hurdle is wrath. Before overcoming wrath the very concept of Dvaita and VA have to erased. Rudriya is the means. And then only the unglamorous partless and fuel-less Brahman-- the source of the Khatra power and Vishnu's movement be in the horizon. Being a part one can never know the full. Being a part one can never overcome the wrath -- there will be always fear and aversion for one who sees another.


Om Namah Shivaya

srivijaya
16 December 2008, 08:19 AM
there will be always fear and aversion for one who sees another.

Hi atanu,
Wrath is difficult to eradicate, as it is always "justified". Whereas we may feel some guilt at our desire, it is seldom so with anger, which is always incited by others. The real enemy, however, is hatred, as it binds us to samsara.


The highest Vyom, from where the movement originates is the goal Would this be Turya, or is Turya the choice-less abiding within indivisible movement and stillness?

I venture to offer the following quote, as a description of my meditative ethos:

"Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"

"On the western wall, lord."

"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"

"On the ground, lord."

"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"

"On the water, lord."

"And if there is no water, where does it land?"

"It does not land, lord."

Perhaps those who get angry do so because they still cling to some vanity that they own their path, that they have a goal, that they will reap a reward.

Namaste

atanu
16 December 2008, 10:26 AM
Namaste srivijaya,
Hi,


Hi atanu,
Wrath is difficult to eradicate, as it is always "justified". Whereas we may feel some guilt at our desire, it is seldom so with anger, which is always incited by others. The real enemy, however, is hatred, as it binds us to samsara.


Yes. Hatred and Fear are necessary results of ignorance.


Would this be Turya, or is Turya the choice-less abiding within indivisible movement and stillness?

I believe that the highest vyom is still a vyom and it is the station of bliss (Soma) -- so it is the Pragnya Ghana or lower. Soma is indeed Vachaspati in Rig Veda. Turya is indescribale.


I venture to offer the following quote, as a description of my meditative ethos:

Very nice metaphor for the meditative experience. Another word that comes to me is 'supportless' -- as if falling and if the initial fear is overcome then 'it does not land'.



Perhaps those who get angry do so because they still cling to some vanity that they own their path, that they have a goal, that they will reap a reward.



Perhaps. Often I feel a very settled calmness that there is nothing to prove. Neither it is necessary to prove one's worth nor is it necessary to obtain validation. It is also not essential to help anyone. But those are rare times. Every one is pushed by Guna.

Since you made a statement about illusion while replying to MahaHrada, I would like to take this opportunity to clarify (see how guna works?)

It is not essential to know how the 'impartible boneless spirit' became this very 'bony and parted Universe'. Theories will never match the Spirit. But it is enough to remember that the Partless Brahman/Atman cannot be known as a separate part. There cannot be a division of a seer (devotee), the seeing process (God's creation) and the seen (God).

Partless can be known by the Partless. So, the Turya will ever remain indescribable -- who will describe to whom?

Best Wishes. Regards.

Om

atanu
16 December 2008, 10:44 AM
Namaste srivijaya,
Partless can be known by the Partless. So, the Turya will ever remain indescribable -- who will describe to whom?

Om

Possibly that is why the Atman makes the Mind to show His glory to Usha, who in return shows Her glamour.:( And then the Mind is floored (landed). And the Atman issues anger "Adam, I did not wish you to be seduced".

Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
16 December 2008, 12:16 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namaste

Srivijaya writes

It is truly the razor's edge upon which we walk.

I thought it may be of some value to offer where this wonderful saying is found.
It is from the Kathā¹ Upaniṣad ( some write Kathopaniṣad ) and is one of my favorites; it is one of the primary (mukhya¹) Upaniṣad-s.
( I also recall seeing this analogy other places, but it does not come to mind. Can anyone advise on the other places this statement is also found? )

Kathopaniṣad , Chapt 1, 3rd vallī , 14th śloka
Arise! Awake! Having reached the Great (teachers or vara¹), gain understanding. The path is as sharp as a razor, difficult to cross and travel, so the wise declare.

pranams

words

Kathā Upaniṣad - Kathā कथा - is speech, dialog, story, conversation, ; sometimes merely a particle of interrogation e.g. what should one say of?
mukhya मुख्य - being at the head or at the beginning , first , principal , chief , eminent ; this word is also defined as coming from or belonging to the mouth or face.
vallī वल्ली - is a creeper, like a cucumber plant. It is used in the division of various writings to indicate a sub-section as the Chapter or section spreads, like a plant that spreads its vines.
vara वर or varan - choicest , valuable , precious , best , most excellent or eminent i.e. the Illumined teacher

atanu
16 December 2008, 05:33 PM
hariḥ oṁ
( I also recall seeing this analogy other places, but it does not come to mind. Can anyone advise on the other places this statement is also found? )


Namaste Yajjvan ji,

'The Razor's Edge' is also the name of a novel which got made into a film. The novel is about the predicament of an American who is drawn towards a Hindu Guru.

Om

yajvan
16 December 2008, 06:11 PM
Namaste Yajjvan ji,

'The Razor's Edge' is also the name of a novel which got made into a film. The novel is about the predicament of an American who is drawn towards a Hindu Guru. Om

Namaste atanu,
Yes, thank you. I have seen this movie... there is the 1946 black and white version and a 1984 color release that stars Bill Murray. I wish to find the 1946 version.

For others that wish to read of this movie, you may want to visit this site:
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/bodhidharma/rz-moviereview.html

MahaHrada
17 December 2008, 05:52 AM
h.
( I also recall seeing this analogy other places, but it does not come to mind. Can anyone advise on the other places this statement is also found? )


The quote appropriate for the topic:
kulamārgo mahādevi na mayā ninditah kvacit
acārarahitā yetra ninditāste na cetare || 120 ||
anyathā kaulike dharme ācārah kathito mayā |
vicarantyanthā devi mūdhā panditamāninah || 121 ||
krpānadhārāgamanāt vyāghrakan thāvalambanāt |
bhujangadhāranānnūnamasakyaṁ kulavarttanam || 122 ||

dvitīyollāsa kularnava ṭantra

O Mahadevi, it is not the path of the Kula that is to be denounced
On the other hand those deprived of its acaras should be condemmed. not others
One is the Acara laid down by me for the Kuladharma quite another the way, O devi, followed by the fools deeming themselves to be wise.
One may walk on the sharp edge of a sword one may hold the neck of a tiger , one may even put on a serpent on his body but to follow the ways of the Kula is considerably more difficult.

Kularnava Tantra second chaper verse 120-22

yajvan
17 December 2008, 11:50 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~


The quote appropriate for the topic:
kulamārgo mahādevi na mayā ninditah kvacit
acārarahitā yetra ninditāste na cetare || 120 ||
anyathā kaulike dharme ācārah kathito mayā |
vicarantyanthā devi mūdhā panditamāninah || 121 ||
krpānadhārāgamanāt vyāghrakan thāvalambanāt |
bhujangadhāranānnūnamasakyaṁ kulavarttanam || 122 ||

dvitīyollāsa kularnava ṭantra

O Mahadevi, it is not the path of the Kula that is to be denounced
On the other hand those deprived of its acaras should be condemmed. not others
One is the Acara laid down by me for the Kuladharma quite another the way, O devi, followed by the fools deeming themselves to be wise.
One may walk on the sharp edge of a sword one may hold the neck of a tiger , one may even put on a serpent on his body but to follow the ways of the Kula is considerably more difficult.

Kularnava Tantra second chaper verse 120-22

Namaste MahaHrada
Thank you for the śloka and the source of it.

pranams

srivijaya
18 December 2008, 03:35 AM
It is not essential to know how the 'impartible boneless spirit' became this very 'bony and parted Universe'....

Possibly that is why the Atman makes the Mind to show His glory to Usha, who in return shows Her glamour. And then the Mind is floored (landed). And the Atman issues anger "Adam, I did not wish you to be seduced".
Theories will never match the Spirit.
Hi atanu,
I agree that theories will never match the spirit. I also feel that any attempt, however sincere, to quantify the ultimate will necessarily result in only a partial truth. Unfortunately, we have no other choice but to convey our experiences within the dualistic, imperfect medium of language. The best we can do is to first shoot to the left of the target, then to shoot to the right and then make it clear that we are really aiming at a portion in the middle which our bullets are unable to hit. It's then up to others to find that portion for themselves.

namaste

atanu
19 December 2008, 11:33 PM
Hi atanu,
The best we can do is to first shoot to the left of the target, then to shoot to the right and then make it clear that we are really aiming at a portion in the middle which our bullets are unable to hit. It's then up to others to find that portion for themselves.

namaste

Namaste srivijaya,

So nicely said. Thanks.



The quote appropriate for the topic

One is the Acara laid down by me for the Kuladharma quite another the way, O devi, followed by the fools deeming themselves to be wise.
One may walk on the sharp edge of a sword one may hold the neck of a tiger , one may even put on a serpent on his body but to follow the ways of the Kula is considerably more difficult.

Kularnava Tantra second chaper verse 120-22

Thanks MahaHrada for the verse and the Jnana, possibly unintended and unforeseen.

Shiva is Eko (One) as sat-chit ananda and also All as pervader of all forms of his own Pragnya to the hilt-- to every pore, nook, and corner of every form. When Shiva teaches of fools and others it cannot be so simple. The boundary itself is awareness -- Pragnya in form of touch. What is beyond boundary known through report is also awareness - forms of Pragnya. There is no place where Shiva is not.

Rudra Bhargo is that warmth which dries up but also causes moisture -- eyes welling up with tears of love and sweetness.

Yagna is Gyana -- just re-arranged letters. The Razor's edge is so because there is very sharp edge to what one's perspective can do.

Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya