New and becoming disheartened

[ThouArt]

Good morning:

I am new to this forum as well as a "new" Hindu, after years of seeking and reading, studying, and fear of allowing myself to believe in God (upbringing, scientific, very "reality-based" in my belief systems) I attended a temple last year and received a sound plunk on the head a "We've been waiting for you!" kind of plunk- Yes, yes! Suddenly the words of Lord Krishna, the spiritual pain of the great Arjuna- the beautiful passages in the Upanishads that make me weep - yes, this is where I am supposed to be.
Hoping to be received at least kindly by the priests and members much less embraced- has yet to happen. I asked members for guidance and direction- get the response "ask the priest". when I ask the priest I get responses like "just do it" very coldly, very UNpriestly; I have made it VERY clear I am in earnest, I attend temple oten, I participate in pujas, prayers, have even donated money to fund raising events - I am received with a blank stare when I ask about "guru"...like I have three heads or something. I try to be respectful, curteous to a fault.
I've experienced a couple rewarding moments- reward enough for me to think MAYBE I am finally being accepted but- my experience will tell you how I am feeling at this point:
I wanted to celebrate my adult child's (only son who is ill) birthday and also wanted him to receive blessings from God for his ill health. I requested and PAID for an ayushya homam.
The priest that performed the homam was visibly furious he was performing this rite for us; when he saw us he stormed off to the administrators office and began to yell at her in Hindi (I am white and don't speak hindi) in front of me for at least 5 minutes.
He then stormed back to the area where the homam was to be done and proceeded. I was near tears and so distraught by the time we were done I was emotionally exhausted. So much so I couldn't bring myself to go back to the temple, nor even pick up my copy of my beloved Gita.
I was informed by someone that priests at most Hindu temples are Brahmins that come to the U.S and are paid for their "services" and generally bring caste prejudices with them.
What a nasty taste added to a nasty taste already in my mouth! Indulgences? How disappointing!
Please give this very disallusioned new Hindu insight! I perform pujas in my home to Lord Ganesha and Lord Shiva. I am trying very hard to continue my path but am not sure now I am doing the right thing.

[Singhi Kaya]

Namaste,

I would suggest not to get disheartned about hinduism due to behaviour of a few "hindus". You just had experiences with poor mannered Indians and not hindus. And the way Indians behave have little to do with hinduism. This topic will be too complicated to discuss here.

But my suggestion is too keep the following things in mind:

1> Hinduism is an religion for the individual. Becoming a contributer to a temple or such things are irrelevant.

2> Get in contact with a hindu and seek personal advice. If you get help from a western hindu ~ better. There are many hindu gurus who have followers in the west. You have to find your own from them. Getting to a traditional temple may be of lesser help for an westerner ~ let's say it is more of an Indian cultural thing and not hindu philosphy or spirituality.


I'm sure the western hindu's in this forum can help you to start with.

[sarabhanga]

Namaste ThouArt,

Traditional Hindu worship is not “congregational” in the way of other religions such as Christianity. Of course people meet at the temple, but the important contact is with the Deity that is installed there and the presence of other people is merely a distraction. There is, of course, more social contact in sessions of group discussion, recitation, singing, chanting, etc., but this is usually distinct from times of formal Puja (ritual worship), and likely to be led by local Pundits rather than by the temple Pujari.

Homa is a very traditional Vedic ritual, and there are some details required by the officiating priest(s) which, as a recent convert to Hinduism (without Hindu parents or a Hindu Guru), you would be unable to supply. For example: What is your given Hindu name? What is your father’s Hindu family name? What is your Gotra? What is your particular Charana?

I would imagine that the priest was not particularly angry with you, but with the impossible situation in which he found himself. Very superficially I suppose this might be termed “caste prejudice”, but the discrimination is not unfounded.

If your own birth is not Hindu, the above details can only be supplied after marriage into a Hindu family or after initiation with a Hindu Guru. A Guru will bestow an appropriate name, and you will become an heir to his own spiritual lineage (including Parivara, Parampara, Gotra, and Rishis).

[c.smith]

As others have said, please don't be discouraged. Is there another Temple that you can attend?

Lord Ganesha is a personal favorite of mine. Pray to him to remove the obstacles you are now encountering. Lord Siva is also merciful.

As a new Hindu myself, I admire that you have taken the initiative.

A last note - there may be other meditation groups or satsangs that you could attend as is the case in my city.

Above all else, welcome to the forum.

[satay]

Good morning:

I am new to this forum as well as a "new" Hindu, after years of seeking and reading, studying, and fear of allowing myself to believe in God (upbringing, scientific, very "reality-based" in my belief systems) I attended a temple last year and received a sound plunk on the head a "We've been waiting for you!" kind of plunk- Yes, yes! Suddenly the words of Lord Krishna, the spiritual pain of the great Arjuna- the beautiful passages in the Upanishads that make me weep - yes, this is where I am supposed to be.


Namaste ThouArt!

and welcome to the forums!

Other more knowledgeable members of the forum have already replied and told you what I would have said. I would just like to reiterate that please do not be discouraged. As far as the specific case of the behaviour of the priest...I couldn't say for sure...I would say that sarabhanga is correct. I think the priest may be annoyed because the administrator accepted the puja but didn't know the details that priest needed to know to perfor the puja properly!

As far as guru, many hindus in the west do not have a guru. It is correct that you will get blank stares when asking about a guru. On top of that the 'western hindu temple' thing is a bad copy of the christian sunday church thing. Many people go to the temple to meet and socialize, there is nothing wrong with that but that's not the purpose of going to the temple. In fact, I do not attend the temple in our town for this very reason and try to do puja and japa in my own house.

Our hearts are tiny temples that are lit with the same light that lights this whole universe and are energized with the same energy from one source...

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

Good morning:

I am new to this forum as well as a "new" Hindu, after years of seeking and reading, studying, and fear of allowing myself to believe in God (upbringing, scientific, very "reality-based" in my belief systems) I attended a temple last year and received a sound plunk on the head a "We've been waiting for you!" kind of plunk- Yes, yes! Suddenly the words of Lord Krishna, the spiritual pain of the great Arjuna- the beautiful passages in the Upanishads that make me weep - yes, this is where I am supposed to be.
Hoping to be received at least kindly by the priests and members much less embraced- has yet to happen. I asked members for guidance and direction- get the response "ask the priest". when I ask the priest I get responses like "just do it" very coldly, very UNpriestly; I have made it VERY clear I am in earnest, I attend temple oten, I participate in pujas, prayers, have even donated money to fund raising events - I am received with a blank stare when I ask about "guru"...like I have three heads or something. I try to be respectful, curteous to a fault.
I've experienced a couple rewarding moments- reward enough for me to think MAYBE I am finally being accepted but- my experience will tell you how I am feeling at this point:
I wanted to celebrate my adult child's (only son who is ill) birthday and also wanted him to receive blessings from God for his ill health. I requested and PAID for an ayushya homam.
The priest that performed the homam was visibly furious he was performing this rite for us; when he saw us he stormed off to the administrators office and began to yell at her in Hindi (I am white and don't speak hindi) in front of me for at least 5 minutes.
He then stormed back to the area where the homam was to be done and proceeded. I was near tears and so distraught by the time we were done I was emotionally exhausted. So much so I couldn't bring myself to go back to the temple, nor even pick up my copy of my beloved Gita.
I was informed by someone that priests at most Hindu temples are Brahmins that come to the U.S and are paid for their "services" and generally bring caste prejudices with them.
What a nasty taste added to a nasty taste already in my mouth! Indulgences? How disappointing!
Please give this very disallusioned new Hindu insight! I perform pujas in my home to Lord Ganesha and Lord Shiva. I am trying very hard to continue my path but am not sure now I am doing the right thing.

Namaskaar. I am sorry that you have had to go through such unfortunate experiences. I tend to look beyond religions and more into spiritualism. While I am a Hindu and don't plan on becoming anything else, I have seen my share of a lack of spiritualism among Hindus as well as other groups. I believe that this occurs when people forget what the mission of religion is. They forget that their rituals and behaviors are supposed to be for the purpose of spiritual growth and not just for the sole purpose of doing the rituals to say that you have done them.

Unfortunately, none of this really surprises me. Even many Indian Hindus that take a serious interest in Hinduism don't seem to get much of a response in my experiences. Every time I see organized religion in action, I become more skeptical of it because I see more negative results than positive results. Hinduism or Sanatana Dharma is actually supposed to be more of an individual religion than an organized religion but today it has for the most part become over organized much like Christianity.

Anyway, to cut to the chase I will respond to your individual points. Before anyone else here criticizes me without knowing the facts, I DO NOT participate in "group think" or "collective consciousness." I do NOT take sides with Hindus just because I am one of them. Even if every Hindu in the world is wrong I will not hesitate to say it. I focus on what is right and wrong regardless of groups or labels. I'll order the points in the order you placed them:

1. If you have not done anything wrong (which I'm sure is the case) and the members as well as priests are not accepting you, then the fact is that they are not spiritual people. A truly spiritual person will accept everyone including those they disagree with. Most of us aren't there yet. Regardless, people who are at least somewhat spiritual should at least have a moral reason for rejecting a person. If the members are rejecting you because you are not Indian, then they are racists. This is the United States of America and while we are a diverse country, I have ZERO tolerance for racism especially coming from minority groups here. It is extremely hypocritical for a minority group in the U.S. to be racist against the majority group but it clearly happens. I also would have no problem telling such people face to face the truth and I have done it many times before. As to the priests, they are hired to do a job which includes accepting everyone that shows respect to the temple. A priest that cannot do that is a fraud and should be thrown out of the temple. A person who cannot treat all people with reasonable equality and respect has no business being a priest.

I would also be curious to hear which temple this is. You don't have to tell me if you don't want to. If you do want to tell me, I give you my word that I won't tell anyone that you were the one who told me. These temples have to follow a set of federal and state laws in order to have tax-exempt status. A racial discrimination complaint to the IRS can cause the place to get shut down. It can also cause them to have their assets and property seized. I am pretty strict in my views. If a temple is bogus, I'd rather just have it shut down and then it won't be a problem anymore. Same with other institutions. If these people are as nasty as it sounds they are, I'd have no moral objections to stirring up a whole lot of trouble such as getting the media's attention as well as the government's.

2. I don't care how many people disagree with me on this, but charging for spirituality is wrong. I can accept a priest charging for a ritual if it is done in one's private home or is something that is clearly optional and separate from the temple. Temples that charge money for rituals including everything from pujas to aartis to samskaaras are bogus. If money is that important to them, they should close down the temples and get jobs like everyone else. Spirituality is similar to love. You cannot buy it or sell it. You can only obtain it and give it away. Spiritualism cannot be bought or sold with money and nobody needs money to raise their spiritual consciousness or to help others become more spiritual. These temples need to either focus on helping people to grow spiritually or they need to just close down and do something more productive than just emptying people's wallets. Temples that keep things very simple won't need much money. Temples that try to become the big scene in town and gather large numbers of people (in the guise of 'serving the Hindu community') are really more like businesses than spiritual centers. Unfortunately in today's bogus human civilization, people believe that bigger is always better. We have nearly 7 billion people in the world and less than 1% of them are very spiritual. Temples should try to get to those special people and not just run a cattle call.

3. Last but not least but what you described here is clearly racial discrimination. You can choose to just quit coming to the temple if you wish or you can choose to get even. They are required to follow state and federal laws or they lose their tax-exempt status. If you are convinced that this institution is NOT serving the spiritual needs of the people and has discriminated against you, you can file a lawsuit and file a complaint with the IRS.

I will conclude my point in saying that pretty much every ritual you see in a temple can be done at home either by yourself or with others who share the same interests. Spirituality is something personal and while group spirituality can help it is not necessary. Good luck and let us know how things go. ~BYS~

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

Namaste ThouArt,

Traditional Hindu worship is not “congregational” in the way of other religions such as Christianity. Of course people meet at the temple, but the important contact is with the Deity that is installed there and the presence of other people is merely a distraction. There is, of course, more social contact in sessions of group discussion, recitation, singing, chanting, etc., but this is usually distinct from times of formal Puja (ritual worship), and likely to be led by local Pundits rather than by the temple Pujari.

Homa is a very traditional Vedic ritual, and there are some details required by the officiating priest(s) which, as a recent convert to Hinduism (without Hindu parents or a Hindu Guru), you would be unable to supply. For example: What is your given Hindu name? What is your father’s Hindu family name? What is your Gotra? What is your particular Charana?

I would imagine that the priest was not particularly angry with you, but with the impossible situation in which he found himself. Very superficially I suppose this might be termed “caste prejudice”, but the discrimination is not unfounded.

If your own birth is not Hindu, the above details can only be supplied after marriage into a Hindu family or after initiation with a Hindu Guru. A Guru will bestow an appropriate name, and you will become an heir to his own spiritual lineage (including Parivara, Parampara, Gotra, and Rishis).

I'm quite skeptical about this as well. Most of these "Hindus" at these temples are not much more Hindu than the Westerners who go there and are often less "Hindu." Yet for some reason they have little to no problem getting the same rituals performed on them that are for some reason "difficult" to provide for the Westerners. Most of the Indian Hindus that attend these places do not have a guru. While they all have Indian names, most don't have "Hindu" names--as in the names given when you take initiation by a guru.

I can really sum up what the problem is here. If you walk into a temple and you are an Indian, you are automatically accepted as a Hindu without any questions asked. If you walk into a temple and you are white, black, or otherwise non-Desi, you have to go through a large amount of red tape to be accepted as Hindu. Even though most of these Indian Hindus barely know anything about Hinduism, most have no gurus, most have no Hindu names--just Indian names, they are still considered Hindu because their parents were, etc. At least this is what I gather from your words. Perhaps we should not forget that all these names and titles are temporary and superficial. The focus here is spiritual growth and realization of the Supreme through Sanatana Dharma. There should not be any red tape or irrelevant nonsense for anyone regardless of where they were born, who their parents were, what color their skin is, etc. All of this stuff that is totally irrelevant to spiritualism is garbage and should be scrapped.

Last but not least, when I have been to India as a foreigner from the United States, I demonstrated a respect and appreciation for India's culture and way of life. I also had no expectations that anyone would speak English or even make an attempt since Hindi is the official language. I expect that people from other countries can also behave the same way when they come to the United States. If these pujaris who come to the United States cannot also demonstrate a respect for our culture and way of life (within reason) and at least treat the people who live here with courteousness and respect, then they should pack their bags and get out of the country. If you cannot respect the country you go to, you should not even be given a visa in the first place. Sorry if I sound rough and tough but I believe it is a two-way street. If I'm given a visa to go to India, I will appreciate that and show some respect to the people who live there and treat them with respect. Those who come here who cannot do the same shouldn't be here. Come to think of it if there are pujaris here on visas who are that disrespectful of Westerners, maybe it is time to turn in their names to the U.S. State Department and have their visas cancelled. Enough said.

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

Anyway, I guess I've said a lot here but I am really tired of the way religion seems to cause more hurt to people than help. I'm tired of the endless hypocrisy coming from people claiming to be spiritual people and yet they are unable to show it. I'm tired of how people claim to know everything about spirituality by how many rounds they chant, how many books they read, and how many years of puja experience yet cannot actually practice spiritualism. Most of all it is tiring and frustrating how much if not most of the time people focus more on irrelevant religious dogma than on true spirituality. If we are to accept that Hinduism is a truly spiritual path, then all of these irrelevancies, red tape, prejudices, useless dogma, and baseless rejection of genunine souls need to be scrapped. Otherwise, it becomes nothing but big-scale hypocristy. ~BYS~

[Ablaze]

Namaste ThouArt,


I am received with a blank stare when I ask about "guru"...like I have three heads or something.

Do you mean you are asking them where you can find a Guru?


I perform pujas in my home to Lord Ganesha and Lord Shiva.

My advice is to pray to Lord Ganesha or Lord Shiva to help you find a Guru, that can help guide you on the spiritual path. The Guru will take you into his spiritual care, and help answer all your questions and meet your spiritual needs, as you follow his guidance. And hopefully you will find fellowship with other devotees as well.

[sarabhanga]

Those who do not understand will often be skeptical!

In the DIY Hinduism of BYS, what name would you suggest to fill in the blank in the following mantra used in initiating a Homa?

agne tvaM [???] devatA nAmAsi

No one is compelled to perform any Vedic Yajna (ritual fire sacrifice), and modern (“neo-Brahmanic” or “post-Shankara”) Hinduism strongly denies any need for such processes, which are generally only performed for the granting of worldly desires.

There is no problem for anyone following any school of Vedanta and adopting their philosophy as a perfect “Hindu”. But it must be remembered that the Vedas and many traditional Vedic practices assume various intimate connexions and relationships that the aforementioned devotee of Hinduism might not possess (nor even imagine!).

No modern Hindu is compelled to perform Vedic Yajnas.

[ramkish42]

Those who do not understand will often be skeptical!

In the DIY Hinduism of BYS, what name would you suggest to fill in the blank in the following mantra used in initiating a Homa?

agne tvaM [???] devatA nAmAsi

No one is compelled to perform any Vedic Yajna (ritual fire sacrifice), and modern (“neo-Brahmanic” or “post-Shankara”) Hinduism strongly denies any need for such processes, which are generally only performed for the granting of worldly desires.

There is no problem for anyone following any school of Vedanta and adopting their philosophy as a perfect “Hindu”. But it must be remembered that the Vedas and many traditional Vedic practices assume various intimate connexions and relationships that the aforementioned devotee of Hinduism might not possess (nor even imagine!).

No modern Hindu is compelled to perform Vedic Yajnas.

Apt Guruji.

However unable to understand what is DIY?

Further, hope the words "Hinduism strongly denies any need for such processes" to be replaced with "Hinduism strongly denies mandatory nature such processes"

Jai shree krishna

[Znanna]

However unable to understand what is DIY?


I think in this context, it means Do It Yourself.

ZN

[satay]

Anyway, I guess I've said a lot here but I am really tired of the way religion seems to cause more hurt to people than help. I'm tired of the endless hypocrisy coming from people claiming to be spiritual people and yet they are unable to show it. I'm tired of how people claim to know everything about spirituality by how many rounds they chant, how many books they read, and how many years of puja experience yet cannot actually practice spiritualism. Most of all it is tiring and frustrating how much if not most of the time people focus more on irrelevant religious dogma than on true spirituality. If we are to accept that Hinduism is a truly spiritual path, then all of these irrelevancies, red tape, prejudices, useless dogma, and baseless rejection of genunine souls need to be scrapped. Otherwise, it becomes nothing but big-scale hypocristy. ~BYS~

Namaste BYS!
You have covered a lot of ground here from racism to organization of religion to deporting immigrants that don't respect the country. I agree with a lot of your points but on some I am on a totally opposite end of the scale! Some of your logic doesn't make any sense at all!!

Back to the original point, we can only guess as to what the priest was saying to the administrator of the temple. For what we know, he may not even be talking 'hindi'!!! I am not taking a 'brahmin's' side but just think that he deserves the benefit of the doubt especially since we have not heard his side of the story and are only guessing on may be this happened or that or maybe he said this or may be he was angry or annoyed at this and that. It could be that we are all wrong and the pujari was talking about a totally different matter altogehter (but related to the homam?). We all could not say for sure!

Having said all this though, I appreciate your honesty in sharing your feelings with all the forum members. Please, do tell us more about how you feel!

[Sudarshan]

Good morning:

I am new to this forum as well as a "new" Hindu, after years of seeking and reading, studying, and fear of allowing myself to believe in God (upbringing, scientific, very "reality-based" in my belief systems) I attended a temple last year and received a sound plunk on the head a "We've been waiting for you!" kind of plunk- Yes, yes! Suddenly the words of Lord Krishna, the spiritual pain of the great Arjuna- the beautiful passages in the Upanishads that make me weep - yes, this is where I am supposed to be.
Hoping to be received at least kindly by the priests and members much less embraced- has yet to happen. I asked members for guidance and direction- get the response "ask the priest". when I ask the priest I get responses like "just do it" very coldly, very UNpriestly; I have made it VERY clear I am in earnest, I attend temple oten, I participate in pujas, prayers, have even donated money to fund raising events - I am received with a blank stare when I ask about "guru"...like I have three heads or something. I try to be respectful, curteous to a fault.
I've experienced a couple rewarding moments- reward enough for me to think MAYBE I am finally being accepted but- my experience will tell you how I am feeling at this point:
I wanted to celebrate my adult child's (only son who is ill) birthday and also wanted him to receive blessings from God for his ill health. I requested and PAID for an ayushya homam.
The priest that performed the homam was visibly furious he was performing this rite for us; when he saw us he stormed off to the administrators office and began to yell at her in Hindi (I am white and don't speak hindi) in front of me for at least 5 minutes.
He then stormed back to the area where the homam was to be done and proceeded. I was near tears and so distraught by the time we were done I was emotionally exhausted. So much so I couldn't bring myself to go back to the temple, nor even pick up my copy of my beloved Gita.
I was informed by someone that priests at most Hindu temples are Brahmins that come to the U.S and are paid for their "services" and generally bring caste prejudices with them.
What a nasty taste added to a nasty taste already in my mouth! Indulgences? How disappointing!
Please give this very disallusioned new Hindu insight! I perform pujas in my home to Lord Ganesha and Lord Shiva. I am trying very hard to continue my path but am not sure now I am doing the right thing.

A good way is to dissociate from all origanizations and keep God to yourself, inside your little house - that should put to rest all your "disheartened" feelings. If you see discrimination anywhere, bypass them. No vedic rituals are mandatory for any Hindu - except for some classes of people who are sincere about it.

If you do want to be recognized as a Hindu offcially by everybody then you do have to recieve initiation somewhere - with a name, a guru etc..

[ThouArt]

Namaste ThouArt,

Traditional Hindu worship is not “congregational” in the way of other religions such as Christianity. Of course people meet at the temple, but the important contact is with the Deity that is installed there and the presence of other people is merely a distraction. There is, of course, more social contact in sessions of group discussion, recitation, singing, chanting, etc., but this is usually distinct from times of formal Puja (ritual worship), and likely to be led by local Pundits rather than by the temple Pujari.

Homa is a very traditional Vedic ritual, and there are some details required by the officiating priest(s) which, as a recent convert to Hinduism (without Hindu parents or a Hindu Guru), you would be unable to supply. For example: What is your given Hindu name? What is your father’s Hindu family name? What is your Gotra? What is your particular Charana?

I would imagine that the priest was not particularly angry with you, but with the impossible situation in which he found himself. Very superficially I suppose this might be termed “caste prejudice”, but the discrimination is not unfounded.

If your own birth is not Hindu, the above details can only be supplied after marriage into a Hindu family or after initiation with a Hindu Guru. A Guru will bestow an appropriate name, and you will become an heir to his own spiritual lineage (including Parivara, Parampara, Gotra, and Rishis).
How would I know UNLESS I WAS TOLD any of the things you mention in your reply post? And why would the priest's discrimination be unfounded? If I treated someone of ANY race or group or culture the way I was treated I would be called a flaming racist and severely punished socially and as is often the case here in the U.S fired from my job, etc.
As many times as I have attempted to learn from the beginning I am afforded nothing. My desire to attend a temple is to learn to practice and worship correctly and be able to feel God's spirit within.
I am not a tourist nor a dilletente! A priest of any religion is supposed to be a leader and honorably represent the religion he/she practices. Getting red-faced and screaming in front of a neophyte trying to find his/her place on the path to God is an embarrassment to that religion indeed.
There are no Brahmins in my neighborhood nor any other "caste". In the U.S you are rich or poor or somewhere in between. However, rich and poor and the in-betweens can and often do live and work in the same neighborhood and many worship at the same neighborhood churches, sans screeching elitist priests.
Challenging me on my "spritual lineage" gets me right back where I started, one of the main reasons why I never practiced any form of Christian religion because of it's disingenuousness and multilayered: garbage in, garbage out.
That just makes me that much more disappointed!:po:

[satay]

This is not a reply to ThouArt but just an fyi for anyone who might be reading this thread.

Priest in a hindu temple especially in the US or Canada is most of the time just a pujari who does puja and distributes parsadam. It is rare that you will find a 'guru' in this pujari.

E.g. the pujari of the temple in our city 'reads' mantra off a piece of paper while performing havan. I always think, don't you have the time to even memorize these? But to be fair, being a pujari is just a weekend thing for many pujaris in the west. They have to work just like the rest of us to feed their children and put food on the table.

As far as 'caste', that's a whole different can of worms. A brief understanding of the varna and the indian culture is necessary to be able to have a meaningful discussion. Just saying because we do this like this in america and we do this like this in christianity doesn't mean anything to hindus in general and indian hindus in particular. Hindus in general couldn't care less if the whole world converted to hinduism or there is only one hindu left on the planet. (this is another can of worms, to be opened on another thread).

Also, I think there is always a misunderstanding in the west about hinduism that hinduism is 'whatever or anything goes' religion. This is not so. The rituals and rules are there to be followed for those who care to follow them. I don't know how things are in the US but in canada I see a lot of 'whites' in the temple whenever I visit the temple. They pray, socialize and eat 'langar' just the same as other hindus. I also see some sikhs there in the temple. There is never any discrimination in fact, I always notice the pujari giving parsadam to the whites first, probably he wants to give them a good impression and that they are welcome to the temple! Yes, you might get the odd stare...and I know this because wife is not a indian so whenever she attends the temple, we get stares...nothing more of it.

:1cool:

[ramkish42]

This is not a reply to ThouArt but just an fyi for anyone who might be reading this thread.
This is not a reply to Shri ThouArt / Shri Satay but just an fyi for anyone who might be reading this thread.


Priest in a hindu temple especially in the US or Canada is most of the time just a pujari who does puja and distributes parsadam. It is rare that you will find a 'guru' in this pujari.

Priest in India also are just pujaris. Many a times, they are equated with common brahmanas. Many pujaris find themselves at sea when they want to get their daughters married to a right groom, for no ordinary brahmin comes forward. Pujaris are considered low class brahmins and not found with adequate knowledge in saastras. Learned Pujaris always goes with the high titles and are treated above common brahmins, thus making their life more miserable with high prestige


E.g. the pujari of the temple in our city 'reads' mantra off a piece of paper while performing havan. I always think, don't you have the time to even memorize these? But to be fair, being a pujari is just a weekend thing for many pujaris in the west. They have to work just like the rest of us to feed their children and put food on the table.
In India, esp in Saiva temples, there are more number of murthis (idols) literally making impossible to remember varities of 108 names in a sequential order to perform Pujas.


Also, I think there is always a misunderstanding in the west about hinduism that hinduism is 'whatever or anything goes' religion. This is not so. The rituals and rules are there to be followed for those who care to follow them. I don't know how things are in the US but in canada I see a lot of 'whites' in the temple whenever I visit the temple. They pray, socialize and eat 'langar' just the same as other hindus. I also see some sikhs there in the temple. There is never any discrimination in fact, I always notice the pujari giving parsadam to the whites first, probably he wants to give them a good impression and that they are welcome to the temple! Yes, you might get the odd stare...and I know this because wife is not a indian so whenever she attends the temple, we get stares...nothing more of it.

:1cool:

In India, non hindus are not allowed inside the temple unless there is exhibited (demonstrated) belief in Hindu religion. The same is applicable to Mosques also. A only open place is a church, there again, Basma is considered common where in if one enters with Oorthvapundara (Vaishnav tilak) is given a stare. I see staring is common, when exhibited is different from intentions. Unless intentions are demonstrated, staring cannot be done away with.

As I had seen few white in USA and helped them to be hindus, I suggest, native americans or europeans should learn few niche words. Like say, I enter a church, I cannot call the priest as swamin, bhagavan, aacharya etc, but it should be father / pastor. Like wise, Hindu temples requires few niche words. It is never idols but Murthi, no priest / sir but swamin, no pujari (for homams etc) but upaadyaayah, one does not visit temple to worship but to have a darshan, no holy water but theertha, not walking around but taking pradakshina - can I say all this typically hindu technical words indicating interest in hindutva. Most important thing do not ask "What it is" to a priest but ask it to a devotee (pref. Indian) while walking around the temple (while taking a pradakshina)

I always suggested natives to enter temples with some tilaks always and always suggested them to walk bare foot for few days before starting off with visits (oops, sorry, with darshans). It will advantageous practising indian sytle of dressing. Most of natives I find esp first timers take temple visits as casual as visiting a neighborhood church with chewing gum and a cigar case which should be avoided. (I am sure that Thouart would had avoided the stuff I said in this para, but I am saying this for this is not meant to be reply to him directly)

[sarabhanga]

Namaste ThouArt,

Imagine getting into a taxi and asking the driver to take you home, but when asked for the address you have no idea! The driver could pretend, and just drive you around for a while, or he could refuse the fare. But if the journey had already been guaranteed to you by the management of the taxi-company (and the fare already taken) the poor driver is left in a very frustrating position. Should he make a mokery of his profession, and knowingly mislead you, just to keep you and the management happy, or should he be true to his principles and decline?

Of course I have no idea of what the priest was actually thinking or saying to you, and I was only trying to show that there may have been valid reasons for refusing to perform the Homa for you. But the ritual should certainly have been either performed with good faith and sympathy or (without that) not performed at all.

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

Namaskaar. I'd like to add a few points. First I will comment on my previous ones. My views may have come across as a bit angry or extreme but when one thinks about it, I believe that I am being pretty reasonable and fair. To the benefit of everyone's doubt, let's assume that the priest may have been talking about something else or that there was a misunderstanding. On the other hand, we understand that Hindu temples in the U.S. are going to largely be made up of the Indian community. We should also realize that even though this community is a minority in the U.S. that any non-Indians that enter an Indian community should at least show a minimum level of respect and courtesy. Based on the posts by ThouArt, it is quite obvious that this person has showed more than the minimum level of respect for the temple and its community members.

It is also expected that respect is a two-way street. When a white person enters a primarily Indian community and demonstrates interest and respect and this Indian community is a rather extreme minority in the surrounding society, then any kind of arrogancy from the minority (Indians in this case) is quite unfounded and hypocritical. Also, regardless of what the pujari was upset about, screaming or carrying on as ThouArt described is NOT professional or spiritual whatsoever. It is a common form of decency to take arguments "outside" and the pujari should have called the people he was angry with into the temple office or some other location outside of the main puja room and continued his argument there. It sounds that this argument or yelling was also done in the area in front of the deities which is a serious offense for the deities as well as the other devotees in the area. Again, none of us know all the details but I think we can conclude that A) ThouArt was behaving respectfully and responsibly as best as possible and that B) the pujari was not acting professional and was likely making one or more religious offenses.

I don't ask for perfection but in certain cases people should be somewhat close. If a person is taking the job of a pujari, such mistakes should be few and far between and many shouldn't happen even once. It is not a job everyone is qualified for and people that aren't ready to take the job extremely seriously should avoid it. He may have had a bad day or he may have had an unfounded problem with ThouArt. Regardless, his behavior was wrong.

I would now like to comment on a few other points:

Ramkish, I'm not sure why you posted what you did. None of your post is on topic. The discussion is about the behavior of a temple in the United States. We are not discussing Hinduism in India. I don't even see how a comparison is relevant either.

Sarabhanga, while you are giving the pujari the benefit of the doubt, it also appears that you are making alibis for his poor behavior. As said above, even if the administration made a mistake, the argument should have been taken outside of the temple room away from the other devotees to refrain from causing any offenses. The discrimination IS unfounded as well. They are automatically requiring lots of red tape and loopholes so that whites can do the exact same things that Indians are doing in the temple. An Indian name is not the same as a Hindu name anyway, at least not completely. A Hindu name is one that is given to you when you take initiation by a guru. Most of these Indians have Indian names but not the Hindu names that you are talking about. Few have a guru and many have little knowledge about the rituals themselves. Because they are Indian with Indian names, they are assumed to be Hindus and without question can perform the rituals. Yet whites are given the runaround.

If necessary, I would like to see where our scriptures demand that to perform these rituals, "Hindu" names, etc. are required. I am skeptical that any of our scriptures discriminate in when it comes to people engaging in austerities. The scriptures never use the word "Hindu" and I have never seen race an issue when it comes to rituals. The concept of "insiders" and "outsiders" is also something I have not been able to find in the scriptures either. This Group A vs. Group B or "us vs. them" that we are seeing in Hindu temples does not seem Hindu at all and it certainly seems to be in opposition to the wisdom contained in the ancient texts. Our ancient texts talk about what kind of activites make a human being a pious person, a saintly person, and a spiritual person. Most of these divisions and stringent requirements for temple rituals appear to be man-made adulterations of Sanatana Dharma. The scriptures never even described temples that I'm aware of nor many of the rituals done by temples today. I also don't see how genuine spiritualism and higher consciousness even requires these rituals in the first place. Many of them are sounding quite irrelevant to genuine dharmic spirituality and in some cases sound as if they are more of a waste of time than a useful tool.

Last but not least, my recommendation to ThouArt is to focus on your own personal spiritual welfare and understand at all times that only you are responsible for your spiritual growth, wisdom, knowledge, consciousness, and awareness. You have to use your own intelligence to discriminate among what people have to say. You have to follow your heart and realize that many times all of these people are just plain wrong. It doesn't matter what thousands of people tell you that you can or cannot do to raise your spiritual consciousness. Simply following your heart may demonstrate to you that these people are wrong. The way things are in the world these days, chances are that most people are wrong every time they open their mouths. I wish you the best of luck and keep sharing your experiences here. If you do everything you can to completely follow your heart and surrender to God and ignore what society and people and the environment as a whole (which is really illusion for the most part) has to say to you, I think you can really make some huge progress. In all honesty, it sounds to me like you already have made a lot of progress. I also think you have done the right thing by sharing your difficult experiences here with us. Namaste. ~BYS~

[satay]

I am surprised that this priest behaved as he did. Most of the time I have experienced indian hindus ready to lick the feet of foreigners (especially americans) for no reason at all. This behaviour can be observed anywhere, from hotels to temples in india. When you stay at a 5 star hotel it with 100% guranteed that I can say that if you are white you will get a better service than if you were indian staying there paying same amount for same service. It is embarrasing really but why this priest behaved like that without any reason. What was ThouArt's fault? Nothing that I can see.

ps: I don't mean to demean any hindus or indians here but just stating my observation of the behaviour of indians. Not implying that pujari should be licking someone's feet...

[satay]

This is not a reply to Shri ThouArt / Shri Satay but just an fyi for anyone who might be reading this thread.


I don't know why you are quoting my post and yet you don't want me to reply to your post. Anyway, your post doesn't make sense, not sure why you are picking on shiva temples.

The point that we are all trying to make is that the pujari in the case acted the way he did for no apparent reason. He should have been more professional or not perform the puja at all. Why do the puja when you are angry?

[Singhi Kaya]

How would I know UNLESS I WAS TOLD any of the things you mention in your reply post? And why would the priest's discrimination be unfounded? If I treated someone of ANY race or group or culture the way I was treated I would be called a flaming racist and severely punished socially and as is often the case here in the U.S fired from my job, etc.
As many times as I have attempted to learn from the beginning I am afforded nothing. My desire to attend a temple is to learn to practice and worship correctly and be able to feel God's spirit within.
I am not a tourist nor a dilletente! A priest of any religion is supposed to be a leader and honorably represent the religion he/she practices. Getting red-faced and screaming in front of a neophyte trying to find his/her place on the path to God is an embarrassment to that religion indeed.
There are no Brahmins in my neighborhood nor any other "caste". In the U.S you are rich or poor or somewhere in between. However, rich and poor and the in-betweens can and often do live and work in the same neighborhood and many worship at the same neighborhood churches, sans screeching elitist priests.
Challenging me on my "spritual lineage" gets me right back where I started, one of the main reasons why I never practiced any form of Christian religion because of it's disingenuousness and multilayered: garbage in, garbage out.
That just makes me that much more disappointed!:po:

Namaste ThouArt,

From your posts it is ovious that the preist was poorly mannered at least from an american stand point. But as i said in the very begining, this is a case of an Indian misbehaving. It is an un-expected sort of behaviour as I would expect a poor mannered Indian to misbehave with other Indians and oil whites as Satay has obsereved.

But I expect u came to hinduism because the philosophy and spirituality immpressed you and not because Indians seemed the best people on earth. And since hinduism is an individuals journey and not a congression this should not dishearten you against hinduism. Yes for us hindu's ~ hypocracy of Indians is sad, but it is a different issue. Very few Indians are hindu's by thought and deed. Many of us perform certain drills as customs and spend rest of the life in selfish hypocracy. If all Indians were true hindu's (in thought and deed) we would not be an occupied country for 1000 years and a lagging nation for 60 years. So let's dump Indian issue for other disscussions. I only want you to realize that behaviour of an Indian has very little connection to hinduism.

Finally,this is more true for preists than even common folk. The preist class is not a representative of hinduism (unlike other religions where preists are the representatives). They are just a class who perform external rituals for everybody in public temples. The only external representatives of Hindu Religion are it's Guru's, Yogis and Siddhas. Rest of us can be good hindus and make positive impact to society. But hinduism should only be judged, if at all (beyond the philosophy and spirituality) by the traits of the Guru's.

[Sudarshan]

I am surprised that this priest behaved as he did. Most of the time I have experienced indian hindus ready to lick the feet of foreigners (especially americans) for no reason at all. This behaviour can be observed anywhere, from hotels to temples in india. When you stay at a 5 star hotel it with 100% guranteed that I can say that if you are white you will get a better service than if you were indian staying there paying same amount for same service. It is embarrasing really but why this priest behaved like that without any reason. What was ThouArt's fault? Nothing that I can see.


The common man in India licks the feet because the white man usually has more money.;)

I have seen some autorickshaw and taxi drivers trying to flatter whites who come to India, and hoping to receive some "tips". So the respect is limited to this extent. I personally think no Hindu or Indian for the matter gives any more respect to a foreigner than he does to his fellow countrymen.



ps: I don't mean to demean any hindus or indians here but just stating my observation of the behaviour of indians. Not implying that pujari should be licking someone's feet...

Just like many Americans have inborn racist tendencies, some Hindus have that as well. Some Hindus (including pujaris) tend to think that Hinduism is only for born Hindus and the rest dont deserve to be included. There are Hindus who think all westerners are mlecchas irrespective of their beleifs. An isolated incident like this should not be taken seriously at all. Even if all pujaris are like that, even then it is no shame for Hinduism. You have to know what Hinduism is based on its scripture and not based on the actions of some or even many Hindus.

If you take a majority poll in India, there is no doubt that an average Hindu would be tolerant of all beleifs( note: tolerance means not resorting to violence), and would be willing to include any non Hindu to the Hindu fold. Those who dont are a thin minority whose views maybe conveniently ignored.

[Gill Harley]

sorry - I'm a bit late to this. But I'm thinking that surely the fact the ThouArt had to pay for this blessing is scandalous! Even the Roman Catholic Church (not my favourite institution) stopped asking for "indulgences" hundreds of years ago. In my view, asking for money in exchange for interceding for you with God or gods is little short of fraud.

[Singhi Kaya]

sorry - I'm a bit late to this. But I'm thinking that surely the fact the ThouArt had to pay for this blessing is scandalous! Even the Roman Catholic Church (not my favourite institution) stopped asking for "indulgences" hundreds of years ago. In my view, asking for money in exchange for interceding for you with God or gods is little short of fraud.

Homa is not a blessing but a ritual which has it's expenses.
Also preist is traditionally supported by the "dakshina" given by the satisfied grihasta for the service. Most importantly I think these vedic homas are performed to ask for boon from Gods for material and menatl well being. With such material ends the pratice of providing for the guy who does the job for you cannot be scandalous. Perhaves you are confusing this with blessing from a guru. In christianity there nothing which parallels the homas and pujas done for pure well being and hence cannot be compared to this.IMHO.

[Gill Harley]

OK then...it's not scandalous. It's taking money under false pretences. As if these clerics have any power to get the gods to grant donors wealth and material being...even should they be so blind as to hanker after it.

None of this practice has anything to do with the practice of God realisation, and I think it should be discontinued immediately - or at least taken out of the temples and left to base magicians and tricksters.

[satay]

I fail to see the relevance of discontinuing 'dakshina'. In the chruch a basket is usually handed to all members who then drop money in that basket. What's the purpose of that?

Money as evil as it is, has its practical purposes. How do we expect the temple to run without money? and especially when most hindus are running after mateiral things and don't donate money to the temple to begin with?

I think 'charging' for something is a temple matter and the temple has to charge something otherwise how do they run the temple? On the other hand there is 'dakshina' an amount of money that one is supposed to give to the priest who just performed whatever you have asked him to perform. The problem occurs when a priest demands dakshina! That is unholy. I don't think this priest demanded money...the temple did, which is quite normal and acceptable.

[Sudarshan]

OK then...it's not scandalous. It's taking money under false pretences. As if these clerics have any power to get the gods to grant donors wealth and material being...even should they be so blind as to hanker after it.

None of this practice has anything to do with the practice of God realisation, and I think it should be discontinued immediately - or at least taken out of the temples and left to base magicians and tricksters.

But they are part of the Hindu religion, and are actually connected with astrology. We are actually doing such homam as a remedy to alleviate bad Karma. It is linked to the theory of Karma, and is indeed part of the religion.

It is not related to God realization, but more related to material world. Just like you would go to a doctor when you are sick. Can you ignore illness just because you are interested only in God realization? We have our share of wordly problems, and one way is to completely surrender to God, and the other way is to seek a remedy through other means.

If you are sick, you will probably go to a doctor. If there are no medicines for your illness, you will try these homams that target your disease at the Karmic level. If that too fails, there is no other way but to surrender to the divine or resign to the fate. But no one will do that as a first resort. For those religions that dont have a theory of Karma, all this will appear nonsense, because they have no explanation of why you became sick in the first place at all.

Like sickness, the concept is extended to many wordly objecitves like long life, more wealth etc by the practice of homams or the wearing of yantras. It is not related to magicians and tricksters, as you have mentioned, who cannot do anything more than illusions. If you beleive in the theory of Karma, there is no reason to discredit the validity of these homams, except as a matter of personal opinion. One might as well reject God in absence of solid evidence.


The pujari himself has no power on his own to satsify your material desires. These pujas are directed towards devas by chanting of certain mantras, which produce subtle vibrations at the level of the stula and sukshma sharira(Yogic plexus) which produce the desired objectives. As far as I know, Srivaishnavas have been heavily discouraged from performing any homams directed at material objecives.

[satay]

I don't see the point of discontinuing any rituals just because some new hindus don't like it. All rituals have a purpose. Rituals are for material desires which is part of the hindu religion. No one is forced to perform them. I have gotten some of these rituals performed myself for my daughter as she is quite ill and have 'paid' dakshina. I dare not accept anything free in return of a priest trying to neutralize mine and my daughter's bad karma! Even if the priest didn't ask for it, it is a hindu's duty to give something in return.

[Sudarshan]

I don't see the point of discontinuing any rituals just because some new hindus don't like it. All rituals have a purpose. Rituals are for material desires which is part of the hindu religion. No one is forced to perform them. I have gotten some of these rituals performed myself for my daughter as she is quite ill and have 'paid' dakshina. I dare not accept anything free in return of a priest trying to neutralize mine and my daughter's bad karma! Even if the priest didn't ask for it, it is a hindu's duty to give something in return.

Bad Karma is not neutralized directly in these rituals. You are actually performing another Karma, in the form of the ritual, which pleases the devas( who reside inside you in the form of abhimani devatas), who are able to satisfy your desire. The effect of the bad Karma may still linger on and perhaps be caried over to a future birth. But that is not a big issue, we can control the future by controlling the present. If you either obtain Jnana or perform a complete surrender to God(Saranagati), all karmas vanish. But if you are sick now, you cannot perform any sAdhana, and hence it makes sense to transfer the Karma to a future date. In this "free" time, you should make good the opportunity and realize God.!! If you still waste time, those bad karmas you tried to bypass through the ritual will be back to haunt you in a future birth.

[Sudarshan]

I fail to see the relevance of discontinuing 'dakshina'. In the chruch a basket is usually handed to all members who then drop money in that basket. What's the purpose of that?

Money as evil as it is, has its practical purposes. How do we expect the temple to run without money? and especially when most hindus are running after mateiral things and don't donate money to the temple to begin with?

I think 'charging' for something is a temple matter and the temple has to charge something otherwise how do they run the temple? On the other hand there is 'dakshina' an amount of money that one is supposed to give to the priest who just performed whatever you have asked him to perform. The problem occurs when a priest demands dakshina! That is unholy. I don't think this priest demanded money...the temple did, which is quite normal and acceptable.

The priest will demand money because it will cost him money to perform the Puja. One must note that the Pujari's main income is from performing these rituals, and if everyone started questioning this, he will have to go hungry and we wont have any more priests. The normal salary given by the temple will never be sufficient even for his bare needs. Normally, the temple admininstration only does regular Pujas in the temple which are centered abound the main diety of the temple. For special rituals such as these, the temple admin is not concerned and it is the sole discretion of the pujari. It is he who charges you his fees and also the charges for the purchase of materials. You can always determine if he is exploiting you. If he is charging several thousands of rupees for a seemingly simple ritual, he is a greedy one.( and unfit tor the profession)

If you think that these rituals are useless, then stay away. No one compelled anyone to do that. No one needs to beleive in these to be a Hindu. It is not fair pointing fingers at the priest just because he is asking for some money.

[ramkish42]

Ramkish, I'm not sure why you posted what you did. None of your post is on topic. The discussion is about the behavior of a temple in the United States. We are not discussing Hinduism in India. I don't even see how a comparison is relevant either.

Dear BYS

I can understand from the very first posting of Guruji that the benefit of doubt has been passed over to the pujari for two counts - 1. he did not shout at Shri Thouart and was angry with the management - 2. As Shri Thouart could not give what was the exact context of shouting, why the pujari did that, etc, there are more possibility that the temple management has missed a few things and shouting of pujari indicates such things might be happening regularly. I perfectly think Shri Thouart should had spoken to the pujari on this and should had joined hands with pujari to take the issue up with management and get it solved.

Simply blaming pujari for shouting is not an answer

Thus my posting started with word "Apt". and other stuff are with postings of guruji will not make any sense to you for it is not addressed to you.

With my second postings, there are some niche things new hindus should know, something like technical words with hinduism. Practise of a religion in a religious place has to be demonstrated and for beginners, technical words are apt

My clarification on pujaris are not gurus applies not only to USA but also to India, hence Pujari should not be treated as gurus. The idea of comparison is to show the common practise of hindus. This is in sharp contrast with your practise of enquiring pujaris on techinical issues of the philosophies they are attached to, hence this again will not make any sense to you for "what is truth" is different from "what you perceive".

The comparison is relevant with the context that treating every pujari as great gurus and expecting them to behave way out of the common man's general behavior. If one treat a pujari as great guru and expect them to be patient considereing many factors, it is not going to work out favorably. As this applies to India, LAND OF HINDUISM, this cannot be an exception to USA.

Request you to read the posts in entirity to understand what is communicated

Jai shree krishna

[satay]

The priest will demand money because it will cost him money to perform the Puja. One must note that the Pujari's main income is from performing these rituals, and if everyone started questioning this, he will have to go hungry and we wont have any more priests. The normal salary given by the temple will never be sufficient even for his bare needs. Normally, the temple admininstration only does regular Pujas in the temple which are centered abound the main diety of the temple. For special rituals such as these, the temple admin is not concerned and it is the sole discretion of the pujari. It is he who charges you his fees and also the charges for the purchase of materials. You can always determine if he is exploiting you. If he is charging several thousands of rupees for a seemingly simple ritual, he is a greedy one.( and unfit tor the profession)

If you think that these rituals are useless, then stay away. No one compelled anyone to do that. No one needs to beleive in these to be a Hindu. It is not fair pointing fingers at the priest just because he is asking for some money.

I agree with what you are saying but still think that if a priest demands money then it is unholy. For example, I have to get a puja performed in our house and I contacted the temple priest, he said (exact words), "there will be 100 charge that you will have to give to the temple, it will cost about 60 dollars for the samagri for the havan that's it and other than that whatever you want to give me with shrada (contentment?)."

It makes sense that temple charges something for this otherwise how else are they supposed to run the temple? samagri for the puja, well, that has to be paid by me. The rest is dakshina and priest didn't ask for anything he just simply let me know that he will accept whatever I choose to give him. In my case, I might end up giving him around 120 dollars just for him to match or exceed a bit the 'charge' of the temple. Anything less is not appropriate in my opinion. This is personal thing. If on the other hand, I only had a dollar to give him, I think he will accept it (probably not happily but he will).

However, I have seen pundits not accepting 'low' amounts of money and actually saying I want this and that. That to me is unholy.

[ramkish42]

I don't know why you are quoting my post and yet you don't want me to reply to your post.
I am just following your footstep. I could had coined the sentence in different way, but you coinage was better, and as it is copied from you, I am quoting you name as reference.


Anyway, your post doesn't make sense,
Probably, but request you to indicate in what way


not sure why you are picking on shiva temples.
The idea is not picking up but citing. In India Shiva temples normally court Navagraha, Varieties of Shakti (in different forms), Ganapati, Kaumara in some places, Gajalakshmi, Hanuman in someplaces, and the lists goes on.

The idea is a Shakta temple and Vaishnav temple, irrespective of many forms of dieties, goes with similar forms of puja mantras. Be it rama or krishna or narayana, puja system and 1008 recited during puja is same. The same is applicable to Shakta temples, though it courts many forms of shakti, names recited in puja resemebles much to principal diety. In shiva temples, this is not so. Every installed diety has its own system of puja.


The point that we are all trying to make is that the pujari in the case acted the way he did for no apparent reason. He should have been more professional or not perform the puja at all. Why do the puja when you are angry?

As guruji has commented on this, there is no need for me to repeat it. Apparently as this post of yours occurs much later than the guruji's post, I assume that you had read it.

If not, there is no restriction to complete the puja when one is angry for he is not karta but only sahakari being a upadhyayah. You must appreciate the pujari for completing the puja irrespective of the fact that he was angry. He did not desist the scene blaming it on someone else, but helped Shri Thouart in completing the puja - in the way he did his duty.

When the OP has not indication about the apparent reason, there is no reason to judge there was "no apparent reason".

To the question on Professionalism, it consists of three parties. Possibilites are more that the temple management was less unprofessional and pujari, in heart would had shouted at the management on behalf of Shri Thouart. Are you sure it is not so

The idea of guruji not to blame any party is out the point that information submitted in the OP are not adequate enough to blame one. I second it, and I had impicitly mentioned it in my second posting and explicitly in my first

Jai shree krishna

[Sudarshan]

I agree with what you are saying but still think that if a priest demands money then it is unholy. For example, I have to get a puja performed in our house and I contacted the temple priest, he said (exact words), "there will be 100 charge that you will have to give to the temple, it will cost about 60 dollars for the samagri for the havan that's it and other than that whatever you want to give me with shrada (contentment?)."

It makes sense that temple charges something for this otherwise how else are they supposed to run the temple? samagri for the puja, well, that has to be paid by me. The rest is dakshina and priest didn't ask for anything he just simply let me know that he will accept whatever I choose to give him. In my case, I might end up giving him around 120 dollars just for him to match or exceed a bit the 'charge' of the temple. Anything less is not appropriate in my opinion. This is personal thing. If on the other hand, I only had a dollar to give him, I think he will accept it (probably not happily but he will).

However, I have seen pundits not accepting 'low' amounts of money and actually saying I want this and that. That to me is unholy.

I agree with this, but the typical materialstic Hindu of nowadays wont give a penny unless the priests asks for it. Afterall, his puja itself maybe done for becoming a millionaire - must be a strong case in point.

The puja done for a specific purpose (like the ayush homam mentioned in this thread) is not part of temple ritual. It is specfiic for the indiivdual and is done on the personal capacity of the priest. So it is natural that dakshina be paid to him rather than the temple. If the temple adminsitration is offering money to the pujari for the ritual, then he should not demand you.

Why I am so concerned about this is because we could not find a single pujari for our native vilage temple because the pujari could not find sufficient income for livelihood. We had to bring a pujari from a far off place, and for 4 months the temple did not have any pujari and not even daily worship was performed. If people get so selfish and dont pay dakshina themselves, we will have plenty of temples with no pujari to cater for them.

[Gill Harley]

satay

I am not criticising this practice from the point of view of a Christian. I am not a Christian. I am critical of any practice in any religion which gives God a bad name and in my humble opinion, this one does. Not because it asks for money for the temple. But because it asks for money in exchange for performing a ritual which purports to increase someone's wealth and prosperity. Apart from the fact that no priest, hotra or cleric is divine enough to make any kind of impression on anyone's karma in that respect, it is also nothing to do with the practice of God realisation, which all temples, mosques, synagogues and churches should be dedicated to. By asking people for money to intercede for them with the gods is sheer fraud and also setting a bad example about what the worship of God is all about. If people cannot learn the true spiritual practice in the house of religion, then where can they learn it?

[Sudarshan]

satay

I am not criticising this practice from the point of view of a Christian. I am not a Christian. I am critical of any practice in any religion which gives God a bad name and in my humble opinion, this one does. Not because it asks for money for the temple. But because it asks for money in exchange for performing a ritual which purports to increase someone's wealth and prosperity. Apart from the fact that no priest, hotra or cleric is divine enough to make any kind of impression on anyone's karma in that respect, it is also nothing to do with the practice of God realisation, which all temples, mosques, synagogues and churches should be dedicated to. By asking people for money to intercede for them with the gods is sheer fraud and also setting a bad example about what the worship of God is all about. If people cannot learn the true spiritual practice in the house of religion, then where can they learn it?

You could do the vedic ritual in your if you have the necessary technical qualification. No need to depend on the prist at all. Most of us are not literate in that aspect, so we depend on them for our worldly problems. Also, the performer of the ritual is supposed to maintain a strict disciplined life, which a normal Hindu lacks. Some rituals may entail 2-3 days of complete fasting too.

Everyone can pray to God for their worldly problems. It may or may not help. Every one is not devoted enough for God's mercy to shine forth. Every one is not qualified to perfrom such rituals oneself. Religions like Christianity and Islam have nothing to offer than to pray, and if the prayer is not granted, then cry about one's own misfortune. Hinduism is one of these few religions that comes up with an alternative in the form of rituals. The merits of even worldly pleasures are conferred only by the supreme being, and not by devas themselves. So why not seek both spritual and material needs at the same source, who alone is capable of granting them?

Hinduism does not separate materialsim and spiritualism - there are four goals in life Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha. Nor does Hinduism prohibit materialsim in toto - it only advises proper balance of both spiritualism and materialsm. Those who are fuly spiritual may abstain from these worldly gains, but that need not prevent others from seeking them from God. Both have to be sought only from the same supreme being - who alone is capable of granting anything whatsoever.

[Sudarshan]

One might ask what is the big deal about a ritual like this over a normal prayer to God. There are several differences.

1. For God to act directly to your prayer, you need to possess unusual qualifications. It is not everyday that God directly comes before you and answer your prayers. The ritual does not assume such a qualification except your faith in the priest and God. Your shortcomings are made up by the priest who is normally a more religeous person, who usually leads a moral life, does not have vices bad habits etc. If the priest does not satisfy these conditions then the ritual is possibly a waste.

2. While prayers are not scientific, rituals are. The mantras recited for a specific purpose have specific vibratory patterns that work on the sukshma sharira to produce the benefits. This is missed in any ordinary prayer, which has more to do with devotion than a science. However, an extraordinarily sincere prayer has the ability to work out a miracle, and directly bring God to your very reach - but how many of us can do that?

[Sudarshan]

I
As guruji has commented on this, there is no need for me to repeat it. Apparently as this post of yours occurs much later than the guruji's post, I assume that you had read it.


Does guruji refer to Sri Sarabhanga? I like that term. I think there is a shloka that runs something as ekadandi tridandi va...., wherein it mentions that all Sanyasins are to be honoured whether they are one-staffed, three staffed, or have differences of opinion from you, or even if he is a Buddhist. Nice to see a Srivaishnava using such a term on an advaitin, forgetting the doctrinal issues. Hats off to you..:)

[Gill Harley]

One might ask what is the big deal about a ritual like this over a normal prayer to God. There are several differences.

1. For God to act directly to your prayer, you need to possess unusual qualifications. It is not everyday that God directly comes before you and answer your prayers. The ritual does not assume such a qualification except your faith in the priest and God. Your shortcomings are made up by the priest who is normally a more religeous person, who usually leads a moral life, does not have vices bad habits etc. If the priest does not satisfy these conditions then the ritual is possibly a waste.

Sudarshan - God comes before me everyday and answers my prayers. I don't belong to any religion and I have no priest to act for me.



2. While prayers are not scientific, rituals are. The mantras recited for a specific purpose have specific vibratory patterns that work on the sukshma sharira to produce the benefits. This is missed in any ordinary prayer, which has more to do with devotion than a science. However, an extraordinarily sincere prayer has the ability to work out a miracle, and directly bring God to your very reach - but how many of us can do that?

Please see above. But it wouldn't be right for me to answer your last questiion with "I can". It is more a case of "God can" and the only thing limiting that is our own expectation. He is limitless. There is nothing he cannot do. And he is hungry for the true devotee.

To answer your previous point, my disgust at this practice has nothing to do with wanting to separate the material from the spiritual. It is separating the spiritual from the material that causes us to think we need a priest to represent us to God, as we don't believe we're good enough, in other words, too material. This is a false assumption.

No..my disgust at this practice is because of its dishonesty. Of course I understand that certain mantras can have certain affects. But do we really believe that in order to burn the seeds of our karma it is just a case of a) being born into the right religion, b) knowing the right priest and c)having enough money to pay for the right mantra?

If we really want to burn the seeds of our karma, it's much easier than that. Wake up every morning with a song of praise in our hearts, and on our lips, for our Beautiful and Loving Godhead, and then spend the rest of the day seeing, serving and loving that Godhead in everyone we meet.

It's that simple. Guaranteed karma burning superfast - and no priests, no empty rituals and no dakshina!

[Znanna]

An analog in Judeo-Christian worship is the purchase of blessed candles and/or holy water, which still goes on all the time. And, what the hey, you think those baptisms and bar mitzvahs are free? I don't think so!

Also, for some petitioners, their only participation in the rite may be their monetary contribution, but for them that counts, big time.

Just my 2 cents: In my opinion, you don't like it, don't go and pay and then complain, go and petition the Godz on your own account.


Namaste,
ZN

[ramkish42]

Does guruji refer to Sri Sarabhanga? I like that term. I think there is a shloka that runs something as ekadandi tridandi va...., wherein it mentions that all Sanyasins are to be honoured whether they are one-staffed, three staffed, or have differences of opinion from you, or even if he is a Buddhist. Nice to see a Srivaishnava using such a term on an advaitin, forgetting the doctrinal issues. Hats off to you..:)

Yes, the term refers Shri Sarabhanga

[ramkish42]

An analog in Judeo-Christian worship is the purchase of blessed candles and/or holy water, which still goes on all the time. And, what the hey, you think those baptisms and bar mitzvahs are free? I don't think so!

Also, for some petitioners, their only participation in the rite may be their monetary contribution, but for them that counts, big time.

Just my 2 cents: In my opinion, you don't like it, don't go and pay and then complain, go and petition the Godz on your own account.


Namaste,
ZN

Apt Znanna

[ThouArt]

Woah I thank you all and appreciate every reply and comment made regarding my experience.
The cranky priest did not deter me, I attended temple this morning and actually, the priest that is the topic of this discussion was courteous; the other people that witnessed his meltdown were especially kind and made me feel very welcome indeed.
Maybe the very fact that I came back proves my sincerity! And yes I would like to wear a sari and learn to speak languages I hear (Hindi, Telugu, Kanada, Tamil) and be faithful performing rituals and worship, etc.
I thank you all again and am very glad I found this rorum. Your sincerity and opinions show me I'm in the right place.

[willie]

The talk about not paying for some ritual in the christian religion probably goes back the catholic practice of indulgence selling. Which basically was the selling of a sacred piece of paper that gave the possesor to right to commit a sin and it could be purchased before the sin was even commited. But that was outlawed by one of the popes who basically said the no one on earth had the ability to dismiss a sin. But that decision cost the church a lot of its income and was not very popular.

In islam they still sell indulgences only under a seperate name and you can buy one. A person might buy an indulgence to say he is married to a woman for a day or a week and at the end of the week the marriage dissolves like it never happened.

You can tap dance around it like talking about karma but the ritual is still some sort of IOU what in essence says you get something now and pay for it later. But like all loans you then try and figure a way to get out of paying in the future. Some how I don't think brahman is that slow witted.

[satay]

You can tap dance around it like talking about karma but the ritual is still some sort of IOU what in essence says you get something now and pay for it later.

namaste willie,
No, hindu rituals or havans are not IOU's. You are wrong. Please read up on it and enhance your understanding of the rituals.

thanks,

[satay]

Woah I thank you all and appreciate every reply and comment made regarding my experience.
The cranky priest did not deter me,

namaste!
Wow! While driving today I was trying to imagine being a foreigner to hinduism and how the incident you had with one of the representatives of the religion would affect me if I were a person without any knowledge of hinduism or indian culture. I came to the conclusion after debating in my mind that if that happened to me I would never go back to that temple or even will seriously question the religion! Then I tried to imagine if I were interested in christianity and went to a church and the priest behaved like this with me showing discrimation etc. I would certainly never ever go back to that church...but now I log back here to type this message and read this message of yours.

Definitely, you have a thicker skin than mine and a much better control over your ego and more patience! All qualities a 'hindu' should have!!!

I hang my head in shame tonight. :o

[Singhi Kaya]

None of this practice has anything to do with the practice of God realisation, and I think it should be discontinued immediately - or at least taken out of the temples and left to base magicians and tricksters.

Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha are 4 important goals of a vedic/hindu life. And Gods can help and guide humans in all 4 of these life goals.

But there is nothing wrong with the 4 great arthas of life and there is no reason to involve God only in Moksha. If living a life involves earning money, living in a family and supporting it and indulgence in pleasures and pains of everyday life ~ it is a beautiful system to make Gods part of all these.

However, this is a idealized scenario ~ in reality hypocracy and theft can creep in, when the society and its administrators are weak (talking about India). Dakshina can thus become a mode of milking the the hard working to feed the worthless. But we should not blame the system set up by seers for our (soceity and it's administraror's) failure to live upto the standards.

IMHO.

[Sudarshan]

Sudarshan - God comes before me everyday and answers my prayers. I don't belong to any religion and I have no priest to act for me.


Good for you. What if he does not to others? What should they do?




Please see above. But it wouldn't be right for me to answer your last questiion with "I can". It is more a case of "God can" and the only thing limiting that is our own expectation. He is limitless. There is nothing he cannot do. And he is hungry for the true devotee.


But that is a fictitious imagination about God. We do not know God outside the scripture, and the scripture is quite clear about the nature of God - read Isa Upanishad. God is limited as long as you have limited knowledge of God. We do not know God at all, that is why we cant solve our basic problems in life. God becomes limtless only to those who know God - beyond the bookish knowledge from books.

The hypothetic devotee is not the object of a ritual. Such devotees are never born in the world of avidya. If you are born now, it means you carry with you a load of Karma for which God is not responsible. And what does Hinduism say in the matter of Karma? Mere praying to God solves the Karma? No.

In Astrology, Karma has been classified into two, Drida Karma and Adrita Karma. Drida Karma is a strong one, for which no workarounds are available for anybody, devotee or not. Adrida Karma can be remedied through rituals, through prayers, through men etc, though the remedy is accessible through God alone.

Typically, those Karma involving the self alone fall in Adrita Karma, acts like vices, gambling, or even illicit relationships, alcoholism and those acts prohibited by scripture. The sin arising from such kind of Karma that causes obstacles to life in some form can be remedied through many means. If no steps are undertaken, the fruits of these Karma will come to pass.

Those involving Drita Karma, are the ones resulting from harm to others. Betrayal, Killing, looting etc in former births have no escape route other than to suffer for these actions, and devotee or not, God is not going to be bothered at all. After all, God is the fountain of justice, and your injustice meted out to others, cannot go unpunished under any circumstance. The only solution to Drida Karma is by Jnana which means obtaining an undiminished transcendendal vision of God that burns all Karma, or voluntarily surrendering to God and not trying to protect oneself under any circumstance( called prapatti). Other than this, the touch or a sankalpa or a true Yogi or the knower of Brahman can actually burn such kind of Karma. But do Yogis ever do this - No, they dont go about solving the problems of others just like God except in deserving cases.




No..my disgust at this practice is because of its dishonesty. Of course I understand that certain mantras can have certain affects. But do we really believe that in order to burn the seeds of our karma it is just a case of a) being born into the right religion, b) knowing the right priest and c)having enough money to pay for the right mantra?

If we really want to burn the seeds of our karma, it's much easier than that. Wake up every morning with a song of praise in our hearts, and on our lips, for our Beautiful and Loving Godhead, and then spend the rest of the day seeing, serving and loving that Godhead in everyone we meet.

It's that simple. Guaranteed karma burning superfast - and no priests, no empty rituals and no dakshina!

Explained above in full. If you have tuberculosis, would you go to a doctor or start chanting the name of God? Be practical and dont make fun of vedic rituals just because you cant find reason in them. The rituals DONT burn the seed of Karma, as explained earlier. They only enable you to exchange the temporary suffering in exchange for a good Karma. It gives you the breather time in which you can realize God.

You have failed to realize that the greatest of devotees of God have suffered intolerably and often more than others. The quality of life is not governed at all by devotion - it is governed solely by past Karma. Many devotees have been tortured so much into taking their own lives. God never interferes in our worldly life and Karma except under extraordinary circumstances. He is very good at what he is best at - granting salvation. The rest of the worldly affairs is under the jurisdiction of the Lord of Justice - Lord Yamaraja, who is more fair and impartial than any other judge in the world. If you sow, so shall you reap.

[Sudarshan]

Let us get this to a more practical level.

Chanting of God's name and similar daily prayers are like taking Chyavanaprasha, or a kind of cure all or general remedy for all problems in life.

However, Chyavanaprasha has no use when you are suffering from TB, where you need to go a doctor, and take antibiotics for a month. Rituals fall in this category and must not be mixed up with any general emotional and devotional sentiments. Their purpose is very specific and limited like the antibiotics, provided the dosage taken is correct under the doctor's prescription.

Talking of devotional approaches to solving many day to day problems in life is pseudo spiritualism at best. Such devotees are indeed very rare, who can command God into fulfilling all their objectives.

[Singhi Kaya]

Namaste Sudarshan,

quite informative post on nature of karma and role of god in karma:).
I think the idea that God cannot take the burden of our karma is the most stunning and different idea of hinduism or dharma per say which seperates us from abrahamism. thus our actions become so important and god cannot save from fruits of what we have done.

Anyway my Q is whether Drita = Prarabdha
and adrita=Kriyaman + sanchita??

[Sudarshan]

Namaste Sudarshan,

quite informative post on nature of karma and role of god in karma:).
I think the idea that God cannot take the burden of our karma is the most stunning and different idea of hinduism or dharma per say which seperates us from abrahamism. thus our actions become so important and god cannot save from fruits of what we have done.


You are perfectly right. If the God so described as All Merciful and All powerful were true, what prevents God from giving instant salvation to everybody this very minute? God can do anything the devotee wants, there are no limitations, but the moment you set the limitation through your own Karma(or ego), the All powerful God is no longer so from your perspective.



Anyway my Q is whether Drita = Prarabdha
and adrita=Kriyaman + sanchita??

Nope, Drida and Adrida Karma are not directly related to sancita or prArabdha karmas. A part of the sancita karma becomes the prArabdha for this birth, and it consists of both Drida and Adita Karmas.

Drida Karma is an irrevocable Karma except through the fire of Jnana or the Yogic(divine) touch. No amount of prayers(from the plane of pure dualty) is going to prove useful for this kind of Karma. If a person is born blind , and is a great devotee of God, he obviously has committed some serious Drida Karma to deserve this.

Adrita Karma are those that are reversible. Minor sins and sins commited unknowingly or out of compulsion fall in this category. By sincere devotion to God, or by selfless action( even by an atheist) can reverse this kind of Karma.

If you kill a person in cold blood in a former birth, you will endure the effects no matter if you are devotee or not. God is not responsible for your actions at all. The scripture is harsh at places due to pure compassion towards us, and to prevent future problems for us. Those who flout the laws of scripture according to their self styled interpretations and do wicked acts will pay the penalty some day - God does nothing in this regard.

Good actions have to be sacrificed to God, else you will be born again and again to enjoy the fruits of these actions. Bad actions have to choked in their tracks, failing which the only way is to endure the after effects barring some unusual divine grace.

Great devotees of God always sacrifice the fruits of good actions voluntarily and have zero balance in their Karma bank. Bad Karmas cannot be sacrificed to God( that would be fun!), so a pure devotee of God has only bad karma in his karmic debt. Other people always have mixture of good and bad Karmas. For this reason, great devotees of God appear to suffer more than others, due to lack of any good Karmas to protect them. However, while the former category would continue to pile up the Karma over successive incarnations, the Bhakta is liberated upon the depletion of these bad karmas.

The incarnations preceding a devotee's salvation are generally filled with misery for this reason. In all likely hood, such a person is able to comunicate with God and has divine perception to some extent - and hence is able to silently endure these bad effects.

[Gill Harley]

But that is a fictitious imagination about God. We do not know God outside the scripture....and the scripture is quite clear about the nature of God - .



Namaste Sudarshan

Where do you think God was before the scriptures were written? How did man know him then? Or did he have to wait for the scriptures to be written before he could know God? That's not my view...or my experience.

Secondly, I am not making fun of Vedic ritual. I would never dream of doing such a thing as the Vedas is my life. The core four books of the Vedas (Rig, Atharva, Sama etc) contain the spiritual teachings from which Hinduism is descended. I cannot claim to have read them of all, but I've read a lot of them and in what I've read, I've not come across this idea of paying a priest to get the gods to make you rich. I think it's a comparitively modern idea.

Of course I am subject to karma. I am here, aren't I, and not living with the Lord in the Vaikunta. However, you can still experience devotion, even in this imperfect state. Devotion is when you love God above everything else.

I also didn't say "mere praying to God." will rescue you from the wheel of karma. Praying to God is useless unless you feel it sincerely in your heart and act it out in your life.



The rituals DONT burn the seed of Karma, as explained earlier. They only enable you to exchange the temporary suffering in exchange for a good Karma. It gives you the breather time in which you can realize God.

I know that's what your religion tells you. But temporary or not, I just happen not to believe it and in fact, I think it's a scandalous lie. All religions lie in some way or another, and this is one example. You don't need a breather from poverty to realise God, even if this ritual could obtain that for you, which it can't. If that was the case, all the millionaires in the world would be God-realised Brahmins and all those who live in poverty would be demons.



You have failed to realize that the greatest of devotees of God have suffered intolerably and often more than others. The quality of life is not governed at all by devotion - it is governed solely by past Karma.


Do you think that God would allow his beloved devotee to suffer anymore than is absolutely necessary, to allow that devotee to burn the seeds of their karma and be united with him? God loves his devotee so much he will sometimes even take on that devotee's karma in order to speed their return home to Him.



Many devotees have been tortured so much into taking their own lives. God never interferes in our worldly life and Karma except under extraordinary circumstances. He is very good at what he is best at - granting salvation.

What do you think salvation is? It's rescuing the devotee from the Wheel of Karma!

True devotion comes from being in love with God. It's a real experience. Those who take their own lives are obviously misunderstandng or perhaps trapped by their ego's understanding of devotion. When you truly love God, your ego disappears. [/quote]



The rest of the worldly affairs is under the jurisdiction of the Lord of Justice - Lord Yamaraja, who is more fair and impartial than any other judge in the world. If you sow, so shall you reap.

Lord Yamaraja is God's servant and he cannot, and will not, touch the devotee of God without God's permission. God is not remote to us. He is not someone we need a holier-than-us intermediary to reach. That's just what the priests tell us, to keep the dakshinas rolling in.

[satay]

namaste!

Sudharshan my dear friend,
You have said a lot here and I can not pretend to comprehend all of the knowledge you have imparted but would like to share some of my own thoughts.

Let’s look at what Bhagwan Krishn has to say as far devotion and devotee is concerned:

Chapter 12 Shloka 6, 7, 8, 12 and 20

ye tu sarvani karmani
mayi sannyasya mat-parah
ananyenaiva yogena
mam dhyayanta upasate

tesam aham samuddharta
mrtyu-samsara-sagarat
bhavami na cirat partha
mayy avesita-cetasam

mayy eva mana adhatsva
mayi buddhim nivesaya
nivasisyasi mayy eva
ata urdhvam na samsayah

ye tu dharmamrtam idam
yathoktam paryupasate
sraddadhana mat-parama
bhaktas te 'tiva me priyah

I ask you to look up the meaning of ‘paryupasat’ and sraddadhana mat-parama.

Gil, BYS and ThouArt

I request you three to read this passage in gita and see how bhagwan has instructed us to proceed in matters of sacrifices.

Chapter 17, Shloka 13

vidhi-hinam asrstannam
mantra-hinam adaksinam
sraddha-virahitam yajnam
tamasam paricaksate

[Sudarshan]

Namaste Sudarshan

Where do you think God was before the scriptures were written? How did man know him then? Or did he have to wait for the scriptures to be written before he could know God? That's not my view...or my experience.


FYI, scriptures were never written. They simply exist. (atleast orally)



Secondly, I am not making fun of Vedic ritual. I would never dream of doing such a thing as the Vedas is my life. The core four books of the Vedas (Rig, Atharva, Sama etc) contain the spiritual teachings from which Hinduism is descended. I cannot claim to have read them of all, but I've read a lot of them and in what I've read, I've not come across this idea of paying a priest to get the gods to make you rich. I think it's a comparitively modern idea.


We have many problems in worldly life. It is not just becoming rich. There is a special Puja called Satya Narayana Puja that can prevent a divorce between a couple who are on the verge of separation. I have personally seen this Puja taking effect in my family. You cannot simply reduce every thing to some imagined version of religion.





Of course I am subject to karma. I am here, aren't I, and not living with the Lord in the Vaikunta. However, you can still experience devotion, even in this imperfect state. Devotion is when you love God above everything else.


How can you love God above everything when you do not even know that God exists? That is called blind faith. Bhakti is Jnana and Jnana is Bhakti - one has no meaning without the other. In Srivaishnavism, devotion or love in the convensntional sense is called only as Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga is the vision of God is samAdhi.



I know that's what your religion tells you. But temporary or not, I just happen not to believe it and in fact, I think it's a scandalous lie. All religions lie in some way or another, and this is one example.


These rituals all have basis in the vedas. Why dont you simply state that you do not beleive fully in the vedas without introducing the word "scandalous lie". Westerners do have the habit of having their imagined version of Hinduism and then shouting at other Hindus. Vedas are not pieces of work where you accept a part and reject whatever does not make sense to you. As I have mentioned before, the Karma Kanda is not meant for mumukshus. It is meant for people who still have worldly desires and have not moved fully into spiritualism.





Do you think that God would allow his beloved devotee to suffer anymore than is absolutely necessary, to allow that devotee to burn the seeds of their karma and be united with him? TGod loves his devotee so much he will sometimes even take on that devotee's karma in order to speed their regturn home to him.


I have mentioned the reason and will post again:

"Great devotees of God always sacrifice the fruits of good actions voluntarily and have zero balance in their Karma bank. Bad Karmas cannot be sacrificed to God( that would be fun!), so a pure devotee of God has only bad karma in his karmic debt. Other people always have mixture of good and bad Karmas. For this reason, great devotees of God appear to suffer more than others, due to lack of any good Karmas to protect them. However, while the former category would continue to pile up the Karma over successive incarnations, the Bhakta is liberated upon the depletion of these bad karmas.

The incarnations preceding a devotee's salvation are generally filled with misery for this reason. In all likely hood, such a person is able to comunicate with God and has divine perception to some extent - and hence is able to silently endure these bad effects."


I have not heard of God taking on the Karma himself, and you are free to show a pramANA in its favour. Dont talk about God's love in this context please. I demand to know why the soul which is considered to be divine has ever landed in samsAra first. Answer this question first and then we can explore that part of love further. I gave you the reason -God is just above all. Love for God means love for all. The love for all comes when you see God in all. That is the point for experienceing God's love. Can you really love everyone equally without actually seeing God everywhere?( not just beleiving God to be everywhere)





Lord Yamaraja is God's servant and he cannot, and will not, touch the devotee of God without God's permission. God is not remote to us. He is not someone we need a holier-than-us intermediary to reach. That's just what the priests tell us, to keep the dakshinas rolling in.

Yamaraja needs no permission. If you do some bad Karma, you are under his jurisdiction and will be subject to his punishments. We can easily verify this in practice. You might be very good or great now, but your past Karma is still there. Do you even understand that Hinduism says in unequivocal terms that our bondage has been there from an infinite past and not for a past few years? There is something more to moksha than you will ever care to understand. If God's love were ideal, no one could still be in bondage after an infinite duration. ( OK, atleast several thousands of millions of years). It is very certain that God allows full freedom to the forces of Karma until you obtain perfection. If there were the slightest of short cuts, not a single soul would be in bondage now, given that we have had millions of opportunities in the past.

You are still confusing moksha with wordly deals. To a mumukshu, the Karma Kanda is not necessary. To a sanyasin, it is not. For the rest, this is all valid. I dont care to keep responding to these charges of deceit.

I confess that I am not a true mumukshu. I will seek a lawyer if I am arrested. I will take medcines if I get sick. I will kill my enemy for self defence. These are not activities of true mumukshus. If you are uppto this level and have completely surendered to God for everything, I agree that God will take care of your everything.

[satay]

After I posted those verses, I remembered this one...

Chapter 18 Shloka 66

sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah

!!!
Darn it Bhagwan, make up your friggin mind!! U want us to perform sacrifices or abadon them!!

:D

[satay]

Hey you guys!
You need to calm down a bit and take a deep breath.

No vedic rituals are a lie and no, the dakshina tradition is not a lie either. Guru Dakshina and dakshina to a pundit has been a part of the hindu religion from the beginning. For example, if you accept someone as a guru (even if he doesn't know that you have accepted him as your guru) you must give out guru dakshnia and the same goes to the dakshina for the priest who performed puja for you.

There is no ifs and buts about it. If you don't want the knowledge of the guru then don't accpet him, if you don't want the puja performed then don't. But if you must do these two things (or one) there is a 'price' to be paid. In mahabharat (what was that guy's name?) a sishya cuts off his thumb and presents it to guru dhrona since dhrona demanded it as a dakshina! I would have done the same as that shishya did!!

If you have accepted someone as you guru be it bhagwan himself or a human being on this earth and if that guru asks for your head in guru dakshina you must cut off your head and present it to the guru. Simple as that...there are no ifs or buts.

[satay]

I confess that I am not a true mumukshu.

True mumukshu is an impossibility! How can one be a 'true mumukshu' and still think himself as a reasonable person? What to do with the faculty of reason?

True mumukshu is blind faith and in fact Utopia and we all know that Utopia doesn't exist.

[Singhi Kaya]

I confess that I am not a true mumukshu. I will seek a lawyer if I am arrested. I will take medcines if I get sick. I will kill my enemy for self defence. These are not activities of true mumukshus. If you are uppto this level and have completely surendered to God for everything, I agree that God will take care of your everything.

If you don't seek a lawyer when arrested, don't bother about medicines when sick don't harm when attacked in short don't bother whether you live or die or suffer or enjoy ~ what is there left to be taken care of ??

[Sudarshan]

After I posted those verses, I remembered this one...

Chapter 18 Shloka 66

sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah

!!!
Darn it Bhagwan, make up your friggin mind!! U want us to perform sacrifices or abadon them!!

:D

Yes, this is quite true of mumukshus and Jnanins. The person who posted this thread was referring to the performance of Ayush Homam for his child, for longevity. Which is not an actibvity of a mumukshu who is not concerned about longevity of himself or others. So all my answers have addressed only such a context, and must not be misinterpreted to prove that I am "supporting" these rituals as a means of salvation. Srivaishnavism heavily condemns these rituals and sacrifices, and encourages true mumukshatvam, which means total surrender to God and be engaged in constant God thought throughout the day. Indeed, orthodox Srivaishnavites of the past never took medicines even if they were critically ill, and they would prefer to die if Lord Vishnu does not come for protection- we must ask ourselves. Are we really there yet? If no, we are all wordly people in some sense for whom rituals and sacrifices are quite appropriate, thougn no necessary.:)

[satay]

If you don't seek a lawyer when arrested, don't bother about medicines when sick don't harm when attacked in short don't bother whether you live or die or suffer or enjoy ~ what is there left to be taken care of ??

I think this type of thing is not taught by hinduism because what I see when you do these things i.e. leave them up to god to take care of is that I see a Buddhist standing instead of a hindu!

This reminds me of a buddhist story where a bunch of buddhist monks were travelling from village to village and in the first village people debated and shouted with them...
their response, "at least they didn't kill us"
next village, beaten with sticks and stones...
response, "at least they didn't kill us"
next village, "beaten to death"
last words, "thank you for helping us to reach nirvana"

:D

[Sudarshan]

If you don't seek a lawyer when arrested, don't bother about medicines when sick don't harm when attacked in short don't bother whether you live or die or suffer or enjoy ~ what is there left to be taken care of ??

Nothing! But that is the very idea of renunciation.

[Singhi Kaya]

True mumukshu is blind faith and in fact Utopia and we all
know that Utopia doesn't exist.

True mumukshu is not blind faith. It may seem that way to us. faith comes from chitta. faith comes with an internal belief and expectation from the present world and post death heaven and a metal conception of God ~ which in reality is just your idea and thus your menatl moha.

mumukshu has no expectation in this life or next.
As sudarshan said para bhakti is knowledge or jnana and not faith.

Faith is an human thing and must be accompanied with reason and action.
Blind faith without reason and ethics is avidya. pure ignorance.

IMHO

[Sudarshan]

I think this type of thing is not taught by hinduism because what I see when you do these things i.e. leave them up to god to take care of is that I see a Buddhist standing instead of a hindu!

This reminds me of a buddhist story where a bunch of buddhist monks were travelling from village to village and in the first village people debated and shouted with them...
their response, "at least they didn't kill us"
next village, beaten with sticks and stones...
response, "at least they didn't kill us"
next village, "beaten to death"
last words, "thank you for helping us to reach nirvana"

:D

Quite right - there will only be a handful of people with such virtues. Preaching "Buddhism" to the masses ensured that we went into slavery for 1000 years.

[Singhi Kaya]

Nothing! But that is the very idea of renunciation.

Exactly!!

[satay]

If no, we are all wordly people in some sense for whom rituals and sacrifices are quite appropriate, thougn no necessary.:)

Especially if the sacrifice is done for another family member! Like in my case as you know personally, all of them are done for my daugther...

I would pull out my heart (as any parent would) and donate it if that cured my daughter...these rituals and dakshina is nothing...in front of a parent's love.

If God didn't want us to do this type of action he shouldn't have given us feelings. I would like him to come down here and live in misery for once and see how he reacts.

[satay]

To All,
Please feel free to ignore me....I am in one those silly moods today. Not trying to derail the thread though if I am then report my posts.


FYI, I have decided to ban ThouArt for creating such trouble over here

Just kidding!

[Sudarshan]

True mumukshu is an impossibility! How can one be a 'true mumukshu' and still think himself as a reasonable person? What to do with the faculty of reason?

True mumukshu is blind faith and in fact Utopia and we all know that Utopia doesn't exist.

I am sorry to say, you need to be in Utopia in order to qualify for Vaikunta. Have you not read the stories of great Rishis who dedicated their lives for thousands of years in the sole intention of God? What makes you think we can also reach their levels without exerting so much? That would mean God is very partial, and expects some people to do penance for thousands of years and gives a free "Jesus" pass to others.

Never encourage blind faith. It is just the starting point of eveything. That is the finishing point of Abrahmic religions. But the finishing point of Sanatana Dharma is the conversion of this blind faith into true God faith through Dhyana and Samadhi. I would refuse to entertain a diluted version of Hinduism.

[Singhi Kaya]

I think this type of thing is not taught by hinduism because what I see when you do these things i.e. leave them up to god to take care of is that I see a Buddhist standing instead of a hindu!

This reminds me of a buddhist story where a bunch of buddhist monks were travelling from village to village and in the first village people debated and shouted with them...
their response, "at least they didn't kill us"
next village, beaten with sticks and stones...
response, "at least they didn't kill us"
next village, "beaten to death"
last words, "thank you for helping us to reach nirvana"

:D

:D

buddhism is only another intellectual way of looking into nirguna brahman.
I don't think there is anything like "this is the hindu way" ~ dharma=hindu=buddhist and some other sects.

Ofcourse sudarshan we are not preaching to masses but thinking in my mind. Buddist sociology has many flaws.

[Sudarshan]

Especially if the sacrifice is done for another family member! Like in my case as you know personally, all of them are done for my daugther...

I would pull out my heart (as any parent would) and donate it if that cured my daughter...these rituals and dakshina is nothing...in front of a parent's love.

If God didn't want us to do this type of action he shouldn't have given us feelings. I would like him to come down here and live in misery for once and see how he reacts.

Sandeep, the idea of renunciation is not avoiding the world. It is seeing equianimity everywhere. You do something for your daughter, but would you do the same thing for an orphan in the street? To real mumukshus, all people are equal and they love the divinity within everybody equally.

Me, my family, my friends, my city, my district, my state, my nation etc - all these ideas have to busted in the end, but not in the very beginning of sAdhana.

[Gill Harley]

I heartily apologise to all, especially Sudarshan.

My tone in this debate has been most inappropriate and unnecessary, and I will now withdraw from this discussion before I cause myself and others any more bad karma.

[satay]

Sandeep, the idea of renunciation is not avoiding the world. It is seeing equianimity everywhere. You do something for your daughter, but would you do the same thing for an orphan in the street? To real mumukshus, all people are equal and they love the divinity within everybody equally.

Me, my family, my friends, my city, my district, my state, my nation etc - all these ideas have to busted in the end, but not in the very beginning of sAdhana.

:rolleyes: I noticed that you Conveniently forgot to add 'my religion'.

You keep contradicting yourself or perhaps I am not getting it (most probably), does the 'real mumukshu' care about the world, if he does then he is bound to the world isn't it? regardless of equal caring or not.

Hinduism never preaches about 'not caring' for the world. How can then a real mumukshu be a rea mumukshu if he still cares for the world! isn't that a contradiction?

[satay]

I heartily apologise to all, especially Sudarshan.

My tone in this debate has been most inappropriate and unnecessary, and I will now withdraw from this discussion before I cause myself and others any more bad karma.

Hey Gil,
No apologies necessary. Please continue with your discussion. I am sick of sudharshan derailing all threads and sounding 'holier than all of us'. :)

Please put him in his place.

:6804382843:

[Sudarshan]

:rolleyes: I noticed that you Conveniently forgot to add 'my religion'.

You keep contradicting yourself or perhaps I am not getting it (most probably), does the 'real mumukshu' care about the world, if he does then he is bound to the world isn't it? regardless of equal caring or not.

Hinduism never preaches about 'not caring' for the world. How can then a real mumukshu be a rea mumukshu if he still cares for the world! isn't that a contradiction?

Didn't you notice an "etc" there?:rolleyes:

There is an "I" and "you" involved for all of us.

Renunciation could either mean loosing the "I" which means embracing the world with equanimity and equal to your very "I".

You could loose the "you" in which case you can loose the world and everything other than the "I".

The former is more easier. As it is far easier to love everybody than to ignore everybody else. The latter option is available only to sanyasins who break away from the world.

[Singhi Kaya]

:rolleyes: I noticed that you Conveniently forgot to add 'my religion'.

You keep contradicting yourself or perhaps I am not getting it (most probably), does the 'real mumukshu' care about the world, if he does then he is bound to the world isn't it? regardless of equal caring or not.

Hinduism never preaches about 'not caring' for the world. How can then a real mumukshu be a rea mumukshu if he still cares for the world! isn't that a contradiction?

I think you are missing the point here.

Real mumukshu's don't care about themselves. They neither care nor ignore the world. They do what is their immediate duty and needs to be done in the situation. Care , don't care are emtional luggage of an ajnani.

Sri Krishna says to sacrifice everything to him and do the duty.

What can be more objective, emotionless and yet most joyful?

[Sudarshan]

Hey Gil,
No apologies necessary. Please continue with your discussion. I am sick of sudharshan derailing all threads and sounding 'holier than all of us'. :)

Please put him in his place.

:6804382843:

Perhaps I should quit the forum? That will make the lives of others easier here.;)

[Singhi Kaya]

Hey Gil,
No apologies necessary. Please continue with your discussion. I am sick of sudharshan derailing all threads and sounding 'holier than all of us'. :)

Please put him in his place.

:6804382843:

I'm glad that sudarshan derailed this thread into more meaningful and philosophical disscussion on karma from a mere openion giving on an unknown preist. You can ofcourse cut paste from this thread to your original Karma thread

[Sudarshan]

I think you are missing the point here.

Real mumukshu's don't care about themselves. They neither care nor ignore the world. They do what is their immediate duty and needs to be done in the situation. Care , don't care are emtional luggage of an ajnani.

Sri Krishna says to sacrifice everything to him and do the duty.

What can be more objective, emotionless and yet most joyful?

When you read the Gita, it triggers you into following the path isn'it? When we come to practice, we realize that we are nowhere near what Krishna expects us to be. It is all Karma which will create these obstacles.

Faced with the problem of idealism, many Acharyas just lay stress on leaving everything in God's hands, and not even stressing higher philosophy. We can never catch up with God, unless he descends a bit for us. I personally beleive that God alone is the guru to anybody at some stage. When the Lord guides you like he does to Arjuna, you will reach him.:)

[satay]

I think you are missing the point here.



You are probably right.



Real mumukshu's don't care about themselves. They neither care nor ignore the world. They do what is their immediate duty and needs to be done in the situation. Care , don't care are emtional luggage of an ajnani.

Sri Krishna says to sacrifice everything to him and do the duty.

What can be more objective, emotionless and yet most joyful?

How can you not care for the world? I know it is easy for Bhagwan to say sacrifice everything while he sits in vaikunta and watches the show.

If care and don't care are the luggage of an ajnani then I choose to stay an ajnani and carry this luggage which apparently is dumped on me by some idiot (?) or is there a purpose behind this luggage that all of us are carrying?

I fail to see how one can be real mumukshu while not really using the emotions. In my opinion a real mumukshu is that who does his thing without attachment but not necessarirly without emotions. Emotions are there but he simply is aware of these emotions and doesn't allow the emotions to take over. He doesn't supress the emotions and says care don't care is the luggage...he simply accepts this luggage and carries it happily without any questions asked and performs his duty.

Are we on the same page for this?

[satay]

I personally beleive that God alone is the guru to anybody at some stage. When the Lord guides you like he does to Arjuna, you will reach him.:)

But I thought that you said God doesn't do anything, he just lets karma take its affect. We are not all Arjunas but yet we are to follow the teaching that was given to Arjuna. :headscratch:

God is very confusing...

[Sudarshan]

I heartily apologise to all, especially Sudarshan.

My tone in this debate has been most inappropriate and unnecessary, and I will now withdraw from this discussion before I cause myself and others any more bad karma.

I have not been offended in the least in a personal way. But when the priesly community is labelled as "liars" in a general way that would not be acceptable to Hindus who practice the faith. There are some dark horses everywhere.

However I appreciate your words. You have my utmost respect.:)

[Sudarshan]

But I thought that you said God doesn't do anything, he just lets karma take its affect. We are not all Arjunas but yet we are to follow the teaching that was given to Arjuna. :headscratch:

God is very confusing...

But that is with respect to Karma only. That does not stop God being guru does it? When you are qualified to a certain level, yes, you will have the privilege of having Krishna as your guru, and ah yes, the Visvarupa Darshan too. Arjuna is just one of the sadhaks and a role model to emulate. Hey, if you are not a kshatriya please dont venture to emulate all his actions.;)

[satay]

Nine pages of discussion. Wow!

[ramkish42]

After I posted those verses, I remembered this one...

Chapter 18 Shloka 66

sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah

!!!
Darn it Bhagwan, make up your friggin mind!! U want us to perform sacrifices or abadon them!!

:D

As this is about my signature, would like to throw some light on this.

Lord has asked not abandon all religions and religiousness but not to do it for their own sake, this is already explained in Karma Yoga.

Lord has asked us to abandon all outwardly religiousness and start being a person who lives for gratification of the lord. All duties must be adhered to for the satisfaction of the lord, for he has created those duties and bestowed upon us.

This is very big discussion, will post some time later when time permits

Jai shree krishna

[Singhi Kaya]

Nine pages of discussion. Wow!

I see only 2 and a quater ~ maybe because I have 40 posts per page ~ good way not get burdened by size:)

[Singhi Kaya]

I fail to see how one can be real mumukshu while not really using the emotions. In my opinion a real mumukshu is that who does his thing without attachment but not necessarirly without emotions. Emotions are there but he simply is aware of these emotions and doesn't allow the emotions to take over. He doesn't supress the emotions and says care don't care is the luggage...he simply accepts this luggage and carries it happily without any questions asked and performs his duty.

Are we on the same page for this?
I think I meant without attachment only. I didn't mean to supress emotions, if you are not affected by personal or ideological emotions, that's pretty much w/o emotion to me.

What are emotions??
Feeling of good, bad , love or hate which comes to our mind when dealing with worldly objects and subjects.

Why do they come??
Because in our chitta (part of which is memory) we have associated some good feelings and some bad feelings, some love and some hate and some non-sense ideas about objects and subjects of this world. We have accumulated these in past lives and continue to do so now. Worst we act blinded by them.

Are our ideas necessarily true??
I would say they are mere distractions in seeing the world as it is. I believe in the domain of mind and language, logic is the only tangible thing. Both memories and feelings associated with them are the chains of avidya. The more we act with our preferences more we get entangled in sanchita karma.

Now given this setting, how come caring or not caring for world a question in this context?? Personally I hold the view that we have come to the world develop further. Evolution is the principle on which nature is working. Duty is not create obstructions to my own evolution and my fellow beings. And oppose those demons who do so. I'll fight or do seva purely because it comes out as my dharmic duty. Yes I may have emotions ~ that doesn't mean it is a great thing to have

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

I fail to see the relevance of discontinuing 'dakshina'. In the chruch a basket is usually handed to all members who then drop money in that basket. What's the purpose of that?

Money as evil as it is, has its practical purposes. How do we expect the temple to run without money? and especially when most hindus are running after mateiral things and don't donate money to the temple to begin with?

I think 'charging' for something is a temple matter and the temple has to charge something otherwise how do they run the temple? On the other hand there is 'dakshina' an amount of money that one is supposed to give to the priest who just performed whatever you have asked him to perform. The problem occurs when a priest demands dakshina! That is unholy. I don't think this priest demanded money...the temple did, which is quite normal and acceptable.

The fact is that Christian churches never charge for anything--not even weddings. They pass the plate around and ask for donations and even through the churches also will perform a variety of rituals (which are not comparable to those in Hinduism) as well as rites of passage (such as marriage) they ask for donations and may suggest a minimum donation, but never do they flat out "charge" for a service. I live in the U.S. and I literally am not aware of even one Christian church that actually charges for blessings, rituals, rites of passage, etc. Yet every Hindu temple I have ever visited in America has charged flat rates for dozens of different rituals, services, etc.

I don't believe that Hinduism should be run off of a cash register. Yes temples do need money in order to operate. That is why they should ASK people to donate. There is a big difference between asking devotees for donations and operating a cash register and charging for practically everything. I also agree with Gill Harley's views that rituals that have nothing to do with spiritual self-realization should be done outside of the temples. The temples should either be for spiritual growth and behave that way or they should flat out be honest and say they are businesses designed to make money and thus have their tax-exempt status removed. I find it quite sad that so many genuine Hindus seeking spiritual growth (both Indian and non-Indian) are for the most part having this stolen by temples. Temples appear to be the dominate form of Hinduism in today's world and in many ways are actually destroying Hinduism due to their excessive reliance on business tactics. If Hinduism is going to just be about operating a business, then it is time for the few serious Hindus left to start a new religion. Sad to say, but history never fails to repeat itself.

Last but not least, some comments have been made about these rituals being done for material purposes (boons, money, etc.). Such material things should be conducted in a business, not a temple. I take spiritualism and spiritual growth very seriously. If an institution such as a temple lies to its members and tells them that they are "serving the interest of Hindus in the community" and "providing a spiritual domain" and in reality are doing neither and just charging money for irrelevant activities, then they should either be closed or have their tax-exempt status pulled by the government. ~BYS~

[ramkish42]

Thank you Thouart, as you had felt Lord Ganesha will steer you to the right path

Do buzz me for any queries

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

I don't see the point of discontinuing any rituals just because some new hindus don't like it. All rituals have a purpose. Rituals are for material desires which is part of the hindu religion. No one is forced to perform them. I have gotten some of these rituals performed myself for my daughter as she is quite ill and have 'paid' dakshina. I dare not accept anything free in return of a priest trying to neutralize mine and my daughter's bad karma! Even if the priest didn't ask for it, it is a hindu's duty to give something in return.

There is still a difference between giving and paying. Giving means that you choose to give something in return and this should be a combination of what you feel you should give in return as well as what you can afford to give. This is a voluntary transaction. Even if they require you to give something in return, it is voluntary in the sense that you choose what you give in return. This is a moral way of teaching someone to appreciate what they have. Charging for something is different. That is known as a business transaction. This is when you are required to give a specific amount of something or a specific item in exchange for a product or service. There is nothing spiritual about charging for something. I am not debating whether this is right or wrong but I am stating that demanding money or charging for something is not a way to teach someone to be more spiritual nor is it a spiritual transaction. ~BYS~

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

One must note that the Pujari's main income is from performing these rituals, and if everyone started questioning this, he will have to go hungry and we wont have any more priests.

Ok, here is a great compromise. If the priest is self-employed and is doing these rituals outside of the temple, then he must be taxed according to U.S. law and must fill out a 1099 form each year and be taxed on his earnings. Sorry but we all have to put food on the temple, priest or not, and I don't think it is right that I work 40 hours or more in a week and have to give 10-20% in tax yet a priest can go around probably making much more money than me in these rituals and be tax-exempt. Legally, if the priest is doing this outside of the temple and it is for his own personal welfare, then he has to be taxed on his earnings.

Second, if the priest is doing these rituals inside the temple and it is not for the welfare of the people who go to the temple, then the temple should also have its tax-exempt status removed for it is no longer a non-profit organization. Temples are not to be tax shelters allowing people to put food on the table yet not to have to pay tax like everyone else in the country. As said before, if they are going to run this stuff like a business, it should be treated like a business. I am in support of real pujaris who actually are interested in other people's spiritual growth. Pujaris that are just doing it is a job to feed their family should be taxed and have their incomes regulated just like everyone else.

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

Interesting discussion we have here. I think spiritually-oriented people should make an attempt to separate superstititon from reality. In other words, while we understand that results are not instant, we should at least have a bit of skepticism as well as faith. Religion is a multi-billion dollar if not trillion dollar industry. It has helped people as well as hurt people. Use it wisely. Thousands of people will come to the genuine spiritual seeker and con them into giving some money for some kind of boon in return. Sad to say but buyer beware. It is practically getting to the point in Kali Yuga, that the best way to make spiritual progress is just live life on your own terms and stop caring about what anyone else says you should or should not do with your life. Religions are labels just like anything else. Humanity over millenia keeps coming up with ideas on what gets you closer to God and what gets you farther away yet people today are probably farther away from God than ever before. Then when you dare to question it, they tell you that such and such scriptures are absolute truth yet there is no way to prove that God actually wrote such and such scripture or any way of verifying that it is true.

I may be in somewhat of a spiritual slump myself but I believe I am seeing things clearer now than I've seen them before. All of these self-proclamined masters will tell me that in order to get closer to God I must do activity A and refrain from activity B yet years and years go by and not only are no results seen, the opposite results are found. For instance, some self-proclaimed master of self-realization will say "chant X number of rounds daily" and "refrain from intoxicants" and "come to temple every day" for spiritual growth. I've come to realize that the best way to find out what works is to experience life yourself and make your own choices and not just follow the crowd. Despite what our religious puppets and our politicans have to say, I've had more spiritual experiences smoking ganja, chanting on my own, and staying away from some of these temples than I've had trying to follow the cattle call that these bogus leaders tell us to do.

I have come to believe that often the fastest way to understanding reality, God, and yourself is the simplest way. All six or seven billion people on this planet, all of their technology, books, media, institutions, etc. are programming us to do something or not to do something. This includes mankind's religions and scriptures. It often becomes background noise similar to static on a TV screen when it isn't on a real channel. Sometimes the best way to make real progress is to turn off all of this programming and simply follow what your mind and heart tells you is best. After all, so much is telling you what to think, what to feel, and what to do, that you don't even have a chance to decide for yourself. ~BYS~

[sarabhanga]

An Indian name is not the same as a Hindu name anyway, at least not completely. A Hindu name is one that is given to you when you take initiation by a guru. Most of these Indians have Indian names but not the Hindu names that you are talking about.

Indian Hindus have Hindu parents, and for all Indian Hindus their parents are their very first Gurus, and all such Hindus will have received their name by Namakarana Samskara. Subsequent Samskaras (if performed) will all reveal further details, and the Namakarana, Upanayana and Samavartana Samskaras are most important with regard to the proper naming of all Hindus.

Namakarana and Upanayana are performed by the parents, and Samavartana is performed by the Guru. And ALL Brahmanas should know their given names, family name, and gotra (at the very least).

Without Hindu parents, the only possibility for initiation into Hinduism is via a Guru, who effectively adopts the aspirant as his/her own child.

[Sudarshan]

I may be in somewhat of a spiritual slump myself but I believe I am seeing things clearer now than I've seen them before. All of these self-proclamined masters will tell me that in order to get closer to God I must do activity A and refrain from activity B yet years and years go by and not only are no results seen, the opposite results are found.


What did you expect to see as a result in all these years? Unless you were sure of what you were expecting to find, how do you know you have found it or not? The activity A you mention here is Niyama and B is Yama. These have to be observed for many years or perhaps many incarnations before any real spiritual progress is made. So I do not understand what you meant by "not getting any result".



For instance, some self-proclaimed master of self-realization will say "chant X number of rounds daily" and "refrain from intoxicants" and "come to temple every day" for spiritual growth. I've come to realize that the best way to find out what works is to experience life yourself and make your own choices and not just follow the crowd. Despite what our religious puppets and our politicans have to say,


The number of rounds is not so important. Whatever we do, even a few minutes a day, dedciation and concentration are essential. Many people I know switch on the television sets during their "chanting" with their minds firmly set on the "cute chicks" that appear on the screen rather than focussing on God. Such approach would be fruitless irrespective of the number of rounds.

refrain from intoxicants - is an essential teaching of all religions. If you cannot control very basic addictions, then how could anyone aspire for God? You cannot be a slave to your passions, but learn to be a master of your passions.

Temple visits are very essential, as it is a place where a number of devotees meet, where daily puja is offered to the diety and the atmosphere is spiritually charged. The chaitanya is more in the temple than at home. Similarly, many people undertake long pilgrimages and usually even walk hundreds of miles towards the center of pilgrimage. While outwardly such things appear to be superficial, such experiences teach you a lot about renunciation, the pain during the journey which teaches you the sufferings other people undergo etc. Every thing is there for a good reason, if you understand the significance.



I've had more spiritual experiences smoking ganja, chanting on my own, and staying away from some of these temples than I've had trying to follow the cattle call that these bogus leaders tell us to do.


Cant understand what "spiritual experiences" one can have while smoking ganja.:confused:



I have come to believe that often the fastest way to understanding reality, God, and yourself is the simplest way. All six or seven billion people on this planet, all of their technology, books, media, institutions, etc. are programming us to do something or not to do something. This includes mankind's religions and scriptures. It often becomes background noise similar to static on a TV screen when it isn't on a real channel. Sometimes the best way to make real progress is to turn off all of this programming and simply follow what your mind and heart tells you is best. After all, so much is telling you what to think, what to feel, and what to do, that you don't even have a chance to decide for yourself. ~BYS~

Does not make much sense - there is some solid foundation you must build on. If there were no such need, our sages would not have wasted so much energy composing thousands of pieces of scriptures for us. You can keep investigating your path, but you must come to a definite conclusion at some point. Else the entire life is gone this way. If you turn off all "programming" then you have virtually nothing to work with. You must note that your very beleif in God is based only on the testimony of sages, and if you dont care for what they say regarding the way to it, then there is probably no reason to beleive in their claims about God as well.

[Sudarshan]

Ok, here is a great compromise. If the priest is self-employed and is doing these rituals outside of the temple, then he must be taxed according to U.S. law and must fill out a 1099 form each year and be taxed on his earnings. Sorry but we all have to put food on the temple, priest or not, and I don't think it is right that I work 40 hours or more in a week and have to give 10-20% in tax yet a priest can go around probably making much more money than me in these rituals and be tax-exempt. Legally, if the priest is doing this outside of the temple and it is for his own personal welfare, then he has to be taxed on his earnings.

Second, if the priest is doing these rituals inside the temple and it is not for the welfare of the people who go to the temple, then the temple should also have its tax-exempt status removed for it is no longer a non-profit organization. Temples are not to be tax shelters allowing people to put food on the table yet not to have to pay tax like everyone else in the country. As said before, if they are going to run this stuff like a business, it should be treated like a business. I am in support of real pujaris who actually are interested in other people's spiritual growth. Pujaris that are just doing it is a job to feed their family should be taxed and have their incomes regulated just like everyone else.

The tax issue is completely irrelevant here. It is the personal problem of the priest. If law requires him to pay tax, then he ought to. When big hot shots with a million dollar income are using the loop holes to avoid paying taxes, I find it rather silly to lay hands on the poor priest who earns a meagre income. Perhaps the vegetable seller on the streets ought to be taxed too? Let us first catch these big corporates in the matter of tax and spare the poor people.

[Sudarshan]

How can you not care for the world? I know it is easy for Bhagwan to say sacrifice everything while he sits in vaikunta and watches the show.


Namaste Satay, that sounds like Abrahamism. Bhagwan does not sit in Vaikunta and watch the show. He is there everywhere, within you, within me....if you cant see that it is your own problem.

[satay]

Namaste Satay, that sounds like Abrahamism. Bhagwan does not sit in Vaikunta and watch the show. He is there everywhere, within you, within me....if you cant see that it is your own problem.

really? if he is everywhere then may I ask why people want to go to vaikunta? I by the way do not desire to go there but I suspect that many hindus do. or don't they?

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

Cant understand what "spiritual experiences" one can have while smoking ganja.:confused:


I believe that adding your name to the "ignore list" of my "user CP" has just helped to increase my spiritual growth. ~BYS~

[Sudarshan]

really? if he is everywhere then may I ask why people want to go to vaikunta? I by the way do not desire to go there but I suspect that many hindus do. or don't they?

Brahman exists in two forms - immanent and transcendent. What we see here is the immanent form of God, in Vaikunta it is the transcendent form.(Turiya beyond space and time).

Nobody can "go" to Vaikunta as it is beyond the concept of space and time, though the word go is used in the same sense as a vision of God, which is not exactly a vision in any sense we know.

[satay]

Brahman exists in two forms - immanent and transcendent. What we see here is the immanent form of God, in Vaikunta it is the transcendent form.(Turiya beyond space and time).


Who is this Brahman now that you are talking about? Is it narayana or krishna of Iskcon or gopala of vrindavan?

If it is bhagwan krishn, where does he talk about these two forms? can you point me to scripture?



Nobody can "go" to Vaikunta as it is beyond the concept of space and time, though the word go is used in the same sense as a vision of God, which is not exactly a vision in any sense we know.

scripture reference? or is it personal opinion?

[Sudarshan]

Who is this Brahman now that you are talking about? Is it narayana or krishna of Iskcon or gopala of vrindavan?


Why? I am a Srivaishnava, and it should be Narayana.



If it is bhagwan krishn, where does he talk about these two forms? can you point me to scripture?


Read chapter 8 of Gita.




scripture reference? or is it personal opinion?

Turiya is essentially stated to be beyond space and time in Mandukya, so I dont wish to change that. When I said this on some other forum, one Vaishnava was offended, so I stopped saying that. Descriptions of Vaikunta are given in some upanishads - the only controversy is whether these are to be interpreted literally or figuratively. I beleive Bhakta Of God posted this question on this forum as to how Vaikunta looks like. It is difficult to answer that because Vaikunta is not seen with this eye, and is a kind of perception totally unrelated to sense organs and even the mind. Vaikunta is known only in samAdhi.

[willie]

So the fight has broke out and it is a yelling match as usual.

I like the idea of removing the tax exempt status of some religious organization and I would image that it would strike fear into them.

The poor vegtable seller is required to pay taxes on the income they make if it is over a certain limit.

The world is littered with the dead bones of holymen and fraudes and it world it better for it .

If brahman is equally resident at all point in all existence equally , then it would not be possible for brahman to be more present in any temple. And I do not see where brahman would listen to priest anymore than any of others of the planet. So I do not see where these priests would have anymore success at rituals than any other person.

Holymen have shaken various holybooks at people for years and mostly they have been ignored. Because people started to listen the what they said and watch what they did and it did not turn out to be the same. And when people did have strong belief it only caused wars and suffering to the minority groups in the area.

Christians have original sin and hindus have karma so in either one a person does not get an even break. In one you have to pay for something some original inhabitant of the earth, who might or might not be related to you did. In the other you have to pay for something that your atman did in a previous life, something that you don't have any idea of what it was or how to make up for. With this kind of debt it is no wonder things go bad and people live like cunning animals, parroting the holy talk and grabbing all the wealth they can for themselves.

If all the temples, churches and mosques were to disappear from the face of the earth , then perhaps we could say that brahman had had enough of the present ignorance and was breaking gound for new ideas.

The peoblem with holybooks is that when you read them there are always people trying to tell you what each word mean. Well it means what it means to you when you read it and maybe in the future you get more of an idea as to what was trying to be said. And as someone else said , the first holymen did it on their own and they did it alone. So there is hope for the rest of us to emulate their lead because I thing holymen and holywomen are make not born.

Jesus was declared devine by committee vote and some voted against the idea because they though it gave the average person the idea that you were either born holy or not, and so most would say, why even try to become a holyperson it wasn't born with it.

[Sudarshan]

If brahman is equally resident at all point in all existence equally , then it would not be possible for brahman to be more present in any temple. And I do not see where brahman would listen to priest anymore than any of others of the planet. So I do not see where these priests would have anymore success at rituals than any other person.


Namaste Wille - This is what I referred to as "pseudo spiritualism". If the idea that Brahman is all makes the temples redundant, then it also makes all worship, all charities, all good actions equally redundant . Infact I can kill you, abuse you etc because I am Brahman and you are one. And now why are you complaining to the Brahman about the actions of some Brahmans?;)



Christians have original sin and hindus have karma so in either one a person does not get an even break. In one you have to pay for something some original inhabitant of the earth, who might or might not be related to you did. In the other you have to pay for something that your atman did in a previous life, something that you don't have any idea of what it was or how to make up for. With this kind of debt it is no wonder things go bad and people live like cunning animals, parroting the holy talk and grabbing all the wealth they can for themselves.


I am unable to know from your ID if you are a Hindu or Christian, but this is a wrong understand of the Karma theory. I explained the theory of Karma on this thread so as to be easily intelligible for everyone, and perhaps used terms like "punishment by God". If you care to read the theory from the perspective of the Shankyan principles, it is only an impression recorded on the chitta that acts as Karma. In the Yoga system, the process is roughly called as "destruction of Chitta". Your present deeds are recorded as "thought impressions" in the chitta and control all your future actions. The lower mind which governs the senses is taking inputs from Chitta and Buddhi, and if the influence of Chitta predominates, you cannot overcome these impressions recorded in the Chitta. This is what I wrote as "God is unable to save you from your past Karma". However, if you could purify your Buddhi to a great extent, the lower mind is no longer influenced by the Chitta but takes actions based on only directions from the Buddhi - this is what in layman's process translates as Jnana Yoga.

There is no God sitting somewhere above and watching helplessly the man suffering for his past actions in Hinduism. You have to make the conscious action of purifying the Buddhi to prevent yourself from ever governed by your chitta, and purify the chitta itself by present actions. Ordinary prayers do not penetrate the Buddhi, but can influence only the Chitta, and hence it may take a long time for such prayers to result in Jnana that destroys the Karma. The only alternative is total surrender to God ( remember total means total and no dilutions), which is equivalent to complete renunciation and Karma good or bad can no longer affect the renuniciant.

[jaggin]

I suggest doing what Jesus said to do when you come to a city (religious house of worship) that will not receive you. Shake the dust of that city off your feet (forget you were ever there) and move on to another place. He told His disciples they wouldn't finish visiting all the cities in Israel before he would come again. The important thing is that you are seeking God. All who seek Him find Him.

[jaggin]

The only alternative is total surrender to God ( remember total means total and no dilutions), which is equivalent to complete renunciation and Karma good or bad can no longer affect the renuniciant.

This is what a Christian does when he receives Jesus as Lord and Savior and what Islam means. Where does that occur in the Hindu scriptures? I must have missed it.

[Ablaze]

This is what a Christian does when he receives Jesus as Lord and Savior and what Islam means. Where does that occur in the Hindu scriptures? I must have missed it.

Have you read the Bhagavad Gita?

Relinquishing all ideas of righteousness, surrender unto Me exclusively; I will deliver you from all sinful reactions, do not despair.
~ Bhagavad Gita 18:66

[Sudarshan]

I suggest doing what Jesus said to do when you come to a city (religious house of worship) that will not receive you. Shake the dust of that city off your feet (forget you were ever there) and move on to another place. He told His disciples they wouldn't finish visiting all the cities in Israel before he would come again. The important thing is that you are seeking God. All who seek Him find Him.

That is right - I will quote Sarabhanga: If you seek Him and yet have materials desires left, the mode of transport and the time of transport may not match one's expectations.:D

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

Indian Hindus have Hindu parents, and for all Indian Hindus their parents are their very first Gurus, and all such Hindus will have received their name by Namakarana Samskara. Subsequent Samskaras (if performed) will all reveal further details, and the Namakarana, Upanayana and Samavartana Samskaras are most important with regard to the proper naming of all Hindus.

Namakarana and Upanayana are performed by the parents, and Samavartana is performed by the Guru. And ALL Brahmanas should know their given names, family name, and gotra (at the very least).

Without Hindu parents, the only possibility for initiation into Hinduism is via a Guru, who effectively adopts the aspirant as his/her own child.

This still seems like a large amount of unnecessary red tape. There should not be any requirements whatsoever for one who wishes to follow a spiritual path other than following the spiritual path itself. As usual, you never provide actual references backing up your points. There is no "Hinduism" in any of our scriptures. That was a made up term that came in later years. As far as I am aware and in my studies of the scriptures, there are no pre-requisites for anyone following Sanatana Dharma. They simply must follow it the best they can once they have taken interest in it. God does not say, "Before you can love me and serve me, I need you to fill out this paperwork and slide your credit card through the machine." ~BYS~

[willie]

Brahman is equally resident at all point in the universe so temples are no more holy than any building of other structure. If temples were more holy then surely there would be a charge for using a better transmitting sight for talking to or recieving a message from brahman. Sure there are those who would like to charge for using these temples , under the pretense of then being better transmitting or recieving site than other places but I have doubt that they are telling the truth.

When one part of brahman tries to hurt another part of brahman would it not expect to encounter some resistence?

The only psuedo spirituality is among these socalled holymen who can only see one way, their way , of accomplishing anything. I find it informative that of the different holymen they mostly talk about their method of becoming spiritual, but all the methods are different. Brahnam must be very accomidation. And no telling what other methods are possible.

One thing about kharma is the first time a atman is put into a human body I wonder where all the bad kharma come from that will make it reincarnate?

In a very real sense brahman does sit above all and watch everything and it has help. In the form of krishna, rama shiva and host of other parts. All wanting to make people better and draw them closer to brahman.

If a person is going to be a spiritual person then they should just start out and begin. Brahman and its other extensions will quide them on their path. Sure you may not be a real force as a holyman or holywoman but you will be better off the you were before.

I think that if a person thinks about brahman, meditates and has sincere feeling then slowy they will see more of the spiritual side of the world.

[sarabhanga]

BYS,

It is clear that you have no understanding of the importance of Namakarana (or correct naming) in ALL traditional Dharmas!

The Hindu Namakarana is exactly equivalent to the Christian Christening ritual.

If Namakarana is rejected, then all traditional Mantras and all traditional names of God must also be rejected as “unnecessary red-tape” that was foolishly imposed by the Rishis and promoted by misguided Gurus and Brahmanas.

DIY Dharma strikes again! Nameless seekers searching for a nameless God, with no faith in the wisdom of ages and no trust in anyone but themselves. I wish you luck! But please remember that this is HINDU Dharma Forums.

[Sudarshan]

This still seems like a large amount of unnecessary red tape. There should not be any requirements whatsoever for one who wishes to follow a spiritual path other than following the spiritual path itself. As usual, you never provide actual references backing up your points. There is no "Hinduism" in any of our scriptures. That was a made up term that came in later years. As far as I am aware and in my studies of the scriptures, there are no pre-requisites for anyone following Sanatana Dharma. They simply must follow it the best they can once they have taken interest in it. God does not say, "Before you can love me and serve me, I need you to fill out this paperwork and slide your credit card through the machine." ~BYS~

If all Hindu traditions had followed this, there would have been no Hinduism left by now. The naming ceremonies, certain apparently sectarian teachings, dogmas and rituals all go a long way in protecting the Dharma from invaders. A particular tradition has to claim that it is superior, its ceremonies are superior etc to gain any acceptance and to be of complete use to its followers. Without any formal religion, it will easily be eaten by dogs and vultures.

If a disciple walks upto a guru and asks - "Why must I follow you? ". The guru is forced to say that he alone is the guru, he alone shows the way, his teachings are infallible, his formalism is required etc. Without such discipline, the disciple will never be convinced that the guru would be of any use to him. He might simply start looking for another one. The mleccha who offers free Jesus passes to everyone would have an easy time luring all Hindus into Christianity. Why has Hinduism survived all these odds? It is because it adapted fairly well, and made the religion more formal. An informal religion has no identity and will soon be on way to extinction.

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

BYS,

It is clear that you have no understanding of the importance of Namakarana (or correct naming) in ALL traditional Dharmas!

The Hindu Namakarana is exactly equivalent to the Christian Christening ritual.

If Namakarana is rejected, then all traditional Mantras and all traditional names of God must also be rejected as “unnecessary red-tape” that was foolishly imposed by the Rishis and promoted by misguided Gurus and Brahmanas.

DIY Dharma strikes again! Nameless seekers searching for a nameless God, with no faith in the wisdom of ages and no trust in anyone but themselves. I wish you luck! But please remember that this is HINDU Dharma Forums.

I asked for scriptural references. Why do you constantly repeat yourself as if you are holier than the rest of us yet rarely, if ever, actually back up what you say with references when your opinions are cross-examined? The last part of your post was also diving into personal attacks which is not something that is fit for someone claiming to be a sannyasin. ~BYS~

[sarabhanga]

In the DIY Hinduism of BYS, what name would you suggest to fill in the blank in the following mantra used in initiating a Homa?

agne tvaM [???] devatA nAmAsi
This question, along with almost every other question that I have ever asked you, remains unanswered!



It is clear that you have no understanding of the importance of Namakarana (or correct naming) in ALL traditional Dharmas!

The Hindu Namakarana is exactly equivalent to the Christian Christening ritual.

If Namakarana is rejected, then all traditional Mantras and all traditional names of God must also be rejected as “unnecessary red-tape” that was foolishly imposed by the Rishis and promoted by misguided Gurus and Brahmanas.

DIY Dharma strikes again! Nameless seekers searching for a nameless God, with no faith in the wisdom of ages and no trust in anyone but themselves. I wish you luck! But please remember that this is HINDU Dharma Forums.
Why do you constantly repeat yourself?
NOTHING here has been repeated anywhere else! :confused:



फट्

[willie]

Finally, a discussion worth having.

What we seem to have here is the fight between fundamentalists and the progressives. And for good reason , too.

Rituals and the following if them has torn a lot of religions apart and will continue to do so for the forseeable future. What is the problem with rituals anyway? The make members of the temple feel good and provide a continuity from generation to generation. But, on the other hand, they are in a way saying that a holy person, priest of guru has more pull with brahman then others. I do not see how this can be so.

Over the ages there have been holymen and perhaps women who have learned from those before them , but for what reason. To make themselves important so they can act like minature kings over the population or to truly help other people? An interesting question and for all those who subscribe to rituals there are a equal number who want then eliminated.

As for ritual holding a temple or church together, don't believe it. I have been in a lot of churches and a lot of them are dying slowly but surely. And the same is true of temples. Slowly time kills off the last members and the building is sold for some other purpose. The fastest growing chuches are those who entertain the members. So much for spirituality.

The first few gurus went it alone and they did a pretty good job of developing spirituality. And when you compare their teachings most a drastictically different in the approach to spiritual developement, so no telling what other methods are out there waiting to be stumbled on and developed. So going it alone might no be too bad of an idea, besides today we have to internet to study holybooks from a lot of religions and we can presue a lot of different ideas.

The winds of change are blowing hard and to survive you have to be flexible. Brahman is resident in a lot of places and has a lot of varied followers.

[satay]

The fastest growing chuches are those who entertain the members. So much for spirituality.

Now that you mention it willie, I have observed this as well. Amen to that.



The winds of change are blowing hard and to survive you have to be flexible.

read some of osho's books if you haven't already.

As far as rituals your understanding is incorrect since you keep comapring them to church rituals. Rituals are going to remain part of Sanatana Dharma as long as orthodox hindus are alive. Hinduism has been making room for all kinds of different ideas and as usual hinduism will make room for the new/modern type hindus who don't see any value in performing rituals or for those who simply can not comprehend the meaning and the process involved.

[Sudarshan]

As far as rituals your understanding is incorrect since you keep comapring them to church rituals. Rituals are going to remain part of Sanatana Dharma as long as orthodox hindus are alive. Hinduism has been making room for all kinds of different ideas and as usual hinduism will make room for the new/modern type hindus who don't see any value in performing rituals or for those who simply can not comprehend the meaning and the process involved.


Sanatana Dharma is a proactive religion. The rishis know that human beings are different - and have various goals and needs. It is even utterly foolish for a religion to preach God alone as the goal, as very few people match upto the standards.

Since the needs of most people are material to begin with, the saints enticed people with rituals to Gods to satisy their material wants. Similarly, people were asked to start singing the names of God so that they could become wealthy. The common man took the bait and started doing it for becoming wealthy. But, as he continuosly did it for several months, the very practice started making him purer, and made him less and less materialistic. In the end, the very materialstiic objective that prompted him to indulge in these devotional activities was given up. The story of Dhruva is a good example of how God is attained, even if the objective for seeking God is purely materialstic.(Dhruva started in quest of Lord Vishnu so that he may sit on the lap of his father!)

[Bhakti Yoga Seeker]

This question, along with almost every other question that I have ever asked you, remains unanswered!
NOTHING here has been repeated anywhere else! :confused:


This is because you answer a question with a question. You stated essentially that the naming ritual is required for the initiation of a non-Hindu lacking Hindu parents into Hinduism. You stated this without backing up your claims with evidence from the scriptures. I commented on that and instead of replying with the references or simply saying that it is commonly accepted or your own opinion, you basically said the same thing again that the naming is essential, etc. The second time you went into this you started indulging in personal attacks by implying how ridiculous it is that I wasn't aware of this naming requirement, that it is a shame people like me reduce Hinduism to whatever, etc. So I stated again how it is absurd that you keep saying the same or similar material even after you have been asked to prove your point yet instead of actually proving your point, you just go around a third time saying how it is my fault that I don't listen or answer your questions, etc. The fact is that you have now repeated yourself twice and have not yet quoted anything that anyone can use. You at least did put a few Sanskrit words in there the third time but with no English translation or any mention of which text and which verse it was from. These are extremely poor discussion or debate tactics and it really is a waste of your time as well as my own. ~BYS~

[sarabhanga]

Homa is a very traditional Vedic ritual, and there are some details required by the officiating priest(s) which, as a recent convert to Hinduism (without Hindu parents or a Hindu Guru), you would be unable to supply. For example: What is your given Hindu name? What is your father’s Hindu family name? What is your Gotra? What is your particular Charana?

I'm quite skeptical about this as well.

Those who do not understand will often be skeptical!

In the DIY Hinduism of BYS, what name would you suggest to fill in the blank in the following mantra used in initiating a Homa?

agne tvaM [???] devatA nAmAsi

They are automatically requiring lots of red tape and loopholes so that whites can do the exact same things that Indians are doing in the temple. An Indian name is not the same as a Hindu name anyway.

I would like to see where our scriptures demand that to perform these rituals, “Hindu” names, etc. are required. I am skeptical.



In the DIY Hinduism of BYS, what name would you suggest to fill in the blank in the following mantra used in initiating a Homa?

agne tvaM [???] devatA nAmAsi

This question remains unanswered!
Before I had posed this question you had not asked me anything; but then, rather than answer my initial pertinent question, you chose to reply only with a demand for scriptural references!

The falsification of evidence is a very poor tactic in any reasonable discussion!

[Gill Harley]

Sudarshan - please give us your evidence for stating that the ancient Vedic rishis tricked the common man into becoming more sattvic in his desires by lying to him that the mantras and rituals were designed to make him rich?

[Sudarshan]

Sudarshan - please give us your evidence for stating that the ancient Vedic rishis tricked the common man into becoming more sattvic in his desires by lying to him that the mantras and rituals were designed to make him rich?

Vedanta is essentially classified into two - Karma Kanda and Jnana Kanda. The Karma Kanda is contained in the sutras of Jaiimini ( the 12 chapters) and the Sankarasha Kanda consisting of four chapters. The Jnana Kanda consists of Badrayana sutras of four chapters. The goals for each of these sets of sutras is stated within the sutras themselves. It is usually accepted that the Sankarsha Kanda is also authored by Jaimini, and the whole of vedanta is a composition of 20 chapters.

Let us see the goals mentioned for each of the sets of sutras:

The Jaimini sutras start with the verse athAto dharmajijnAsa, Thus the enquiry into Dharma. Thus the Karma Kanda deals with the principles of Dharma, which translates to dharma, artha and kAma, the three goals of life.

Badarayana sutras start with the verse athAto brahmajijnAsa - Then, therefore the enquiry to Brahman, which deals with the supreme goal of life, moxa.

The Karma Kanda is for the grihastas and the Jnana Kanda is essentially for sanyasins or mumukshus, or those desiring for liberattion.(alone). If the only goal of Hinduism had been moksha, we never had a need for Karma Kanda at all.

Jaimini sutras themselves make it obvious that the many rituals and sacrifices mentioned in it do not lead to moksha, but their goal is only heaven and material objectives. Most of the disciplines we follow in life, come solely under Karma Kanda. The Karma Kanda which begins with people still have lingering desires, must culiminate with the relinquishing of the fruits of Karma in order for one to qualify for Jnana Kanda.

If the rishis prescribed these rituals knowing very well that moksha cannot be atatined by Karma, then they could not have just skipped this part and had to provide us only with the Jnana Kanda. They did not do that. and it is only for qualifiying a man first with Karma Kanda, which begins with the atainment of worldly desires and higher heavens, and then a final frustration at the limited value of these accomplishments, which leads a man to seek for the final goal of liberation.

[Gill Harley]

Namaste Sudarshan

"Vedanta" means "after the Vedas".

So I repeat my original question:


Sudarshan - please give us your evidence for stating that the ancient Vedic rishis tricked the common man into becoming more sattvic in his desires by lying to him that the mantras and rituals were designed to make him rich?

[Sudarshan]

Namaste Sudarshan

"Vedanta" means "after the Vedas".

So I repeat my original question:

So?

Vedanta does not mean after the vedas, it refers to the climax(end part) of the vedas - the Upanishads in specific. There is nothing "after the vedas".

Vedanta is very speciifc that it is only for mumukshus as its first aphorism confrms. Few people are ready for in reality. Both Karma Kanda and Jnana Kanda comprise a unitary text. If you are not following one the the prescribed methods of Yoga in the vedanta, you are not a vedantin, but only belong to Karma Kanda - the vast majoriity of hindus fall in this class only, irrespective of what they claim to be.

[jaggin]

Finally, a discussion worth having.

The fastest growing chuches are those who entertain the members. So much for spirituality.

The winds of change are blowing hard and to survive you have to be flexible. Brahman is resident in a lot of places and has a lot of varied followers.

The Pastor of my current church feels the same way about the entertainment. My previous church had an entertainment type worship survice. The reality is that such a service does engender a stronger spirituality if the participants are spiritually oriented.

Perhaps it is a little like presenting materialism to attract worldly people but then we can hope also that those people will catch the spirit while they are there.

One of the problems with mainline Christian churches is that they tend to have music from the 17th century when most people today are relating to a different form of music. Lack of flexibility is responsible for the demise of mainline churches.

At the same time mainline churches are falling into apostasy and that will further erode their effectiveness accept for attracting sinners who will never be saved because of a watered down Gospel.

[willie]

There are a lot of modern christian singer, most of whom want to be crossover singers and work both sided of the street.

I think the days of the hellfire and brimstone sermon are over , at least, in the midwest, east, west and north. In the south there is more of the old testament in the sermons even to progressive churches have it. Well that and a church on about every block of town. When I drive through the south I am always surprised at the sheer number of churchs there are. And for the attitude of the people I ran accross they needed everyone of them.

I used the stop some sundays and go in to listen to the sermons, at least , until I got threw out of a few. But that is just me I guess.

Go to church and try and have a conversation about spirituality , and don't be afraid of the tough issues. See where it leads. A good place to start it with the book of judas of how jesus were declared devine be committee. It will scratch off the spirituality veneer and show what is underneath.

[jaggin]

I lived in Alabama for two years, so I know what you mean. I usually go where the Lord sends me and that meant an all black church that was a member of the Southern Baptist Convention. At least with black churches spirituality is real and not just a veneer. I liked the openness to Christian subjects in the south. In the northeast (where I'm from), you have to be careful lest someone seeks to remove your head.

It is no embarassment being thrown out of churches. Usually I am told to keep my mouth shut at which point, I leave voluntarily. I am about to leave the church that I am attending because the Lord has me very sensitive to holiness issues at present. Unfortuanately for me I get to go to a Christian Science church next where I don't believe what they believe from the start but the Lord has His purposes. It may have something to do with the Lord's promise to give me the gift of healing because that is where Christian Science falls short.

Another thing the south has is the mega-church with televised services. I lived near the Fraser Methodist in Montgomery, AL and sometimes went to the breakfast buffet there but I think biscuits and red eyed gravy were meant to create heart attacks.:p

If you are starting with the book of Judas, you are starting from a position of heresy, the Bible is the best antidote for that. The divinity of Jesus was already proclaimed in the book of Isaiah, all any committee would be able to do is affirm what the Bible has to say as central to Christian belief as opposed to those who disavowed the Bible by saying something else.

[willie]

The book of judas actually says that judas was instructed by jesus to turn him in. What a way to become a hero , get someone to finger you. Judas was to beceme the hero of the chruch but like all organization , when the leader gets it the underling start in fighting over who will be the next leader.

Maybe the people on the committee knew the truth they jesus had to have somone turn him in so he could die a hero. Wonder where god was all this time?

[izi]

i love Siva, and how he ridicules the Brahmins in the forest....

he is so wise

[satay]

namaste,

Welcome to HDF.


how he ridicules the Brahmins in the forest....



huh? Care to explain?

[izi]

In that one story where he confronts the brahmins, who are performing rituals that are empty....and then their wives run off with him....rofl. oh my god I love siva

anyways...maybe a change of perspective is needed here- if one sees their own self as as already recieving everything they need, then you can take their rudeness as a lesson - it is, after all, what the universe has presented you at that moment...so...

fear of rejection is just one less thing to worry about on the laundry list of flaws we must purge, right?

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste

Right ! And i bet you are going to give a true and very beautiful story teller.




Pranams!

[Eastern Mind]

anyways...maybe a change of perspective is needed here- if one sees their own self as as already recieving everything they need, then you can take their rudeness as a lesson - it is, after all, what the universe has presented you at that moment...so...

fear of rejection is just one less thing to worry about on the laundry list of flaws we must purge, right?

You understand karma very well. The universe is in a perfect state... of evolution. Having someone be rude to you is a boon for you. More karma gone. Aum Namasivaya