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sarabhanga
25 June 2006, 03:09 AM
लँ
लक्ष = लग्न = लिङ्ग = शिव

In the Mahabharata, it is said that Brahma commissioned Shiva for the task of Creation. Shiva sank into the dark Void, where his creative seed was secreted. He meditated for such a long time that Brahma grew impatient and appointed Prajapati; and when Shiva finally emerged, he became indignant that the work had been completed by another and in fury severed his own organ. He planted it in the earth.

The phallus has always been Shiva’s most potent emblem. Simple earthen or stone Linga were common in Sindhu-Sarasvati culture, and the Rig-Veda refers to the indigenous Shishnadevas (those to whom the Linga is God). The Neolithic tribes of northern India anciently used a stone digging-stick (Lak or Lang) in their primitive agriculture; and a stone phallus planted in or emerging from the earth, which is the Yoni (Bhaga) of the World, is the æternal aniconic form of Shiva-Shakti. Shiva is Mahashepha (Great Phallus) and Bhagesha (Womb Lord); and Shiva is Sthanu (Standing), rising from the quiet focus of Brahma’s creative vortex as Evidence that promises both Life and After-Life (i.e. Fruitful Æternity).

The Puranas relate that, while Brahma and Vishnu were quarrelling, Shiva displayed his Jyotirlinga. That Shaft of Light was pure Rajas, comprising the entire spectrum of creative radiation, and arose directly from the dark Flood of the Void. As Hamsa, Brahma flew upwards; and as Varaha, Vishnu plumbed the depths; but neither could fathom the extent of Shiva’s mighty Linga.

The arched extent of Arjuna’s Shaft is cognate with the ‘Aaron (Ark) of the Rod’: the ever-fertile standard of the First Priest, who is One of Twelve; the emblematic Arc of an æternal Covenant between God and Man.

Maheshvara declares that He will always be present within the bounds marked by His Jyotirlinga. The multifarious jewels of this legendary ‘Lost Ark’ are yet found in Bharata, where they shine resplendent as the Twelve Jyotirlinga of Lord Shiva

Shiva is: Somanatha in Saurastra [Somnath, Gujarat]; Mallikarjuna on Shrishaila [Srisailam, Andhra-Pradesh]; Mahakala at Ujjayini [Ujjain, Madhya-Pradesh]; Omkara at Amareshvara [island in Narmada River, near Mandhatta, M.P.]; Kedara in Himalaya [source of Mandakini River, Uttaranchal]; Bhimashankara at Dakini [source of Bhima River, Maharastra]; Vishveshvara at Varanasi [Uttar-Pradesh]; Tryambaka on Gautami [source of Godavari River, Maharastra]; Vaidyanatha at Citabhumi [Deoghar, Jharkhand]; Nagesha at Dvarakavana [near Dwarka, Gujarat]; Rameshvara at Setubandha [Ramesvaram, Tamil Nadu]; and Ghushnesha at Shivalaya [Ellora, Maharastra].

satay
28 June 2006, 11:39 AM
Maheshvara declares that He will always be present within the bounds marked by His Jyotirlinga. The multifarious jewels of this legendary ‘Lost Ark’ are yet found in Bharata, where they shine resplendent as the Twelve Jyotirlinga of Lord Shiva


namaste,

Why lord chose to leave all jyotirlinga in the land known as Bharata and not anywhere else? or is that we just haven't looked for it anywhere else on the planet?

Sudarshan
28 June 2006, 12:07 PM
namaste,

Why lord chose to leave all jyotirlinga in the land known as Bharata and not anywhere else? or is that we just haven't looked for it anywhere else on the planet?

Perhaps Bharat is not this land at all? And Jyothirlingas do not pertain to this world at all? Perhaps they have two meanings- an inner and outer? I saw TruthSeeker-ji giving different meanings. I agree with the fact that Bharat cannot India, else Hinduism must give up its claim of "Sanatana Dharama" and call itself "Bharat Dharma", a way of salvation for Indians only. To Bhava Dasa I asked for an explanation of the geographical explanations for the description of Bharatvarsha and the Jambudvipa given in Srimad Bhagavatam, and he did not give any explanation. There is something more than history and geography in our scripture.

Stalapuranas are the most absurd things you will ever find.:D

ramkish42
28 June 2006, 01:24 PM
namaste,

Why lord chose to leave all jyotirlinga in the land known as Bharata and not anywhere else? or is that we just haven't looked for it anywhere else on the planet?

We have lost a huge set of vedic teachings over time and many greater perceptions of great saints and scholars.

Lord would had showered his benevolance to all places, but those places has lost the track to recall those teachings and unable to identify such benevolance over a period of time.

Probably, those missing parts of veda could be dealing with such showers, as for India, it was not relevant much, our ancestors would not had given much importance to it for crossing himalayas would had been a huge task to visit such places. Over a period of time, I suspect, we had lost them.

Jai shree krishna

Singhi Kaya
28 June 2006, 01:45 PM
namaste,

Why lord chose to leave all jyotirlinga in the land known as Bharata and not anywhere else? or is that we just haven't looked for it anywhere else on the planet?

Because bharata is the bed where humans found the keys to breaking the shakels of bondage of jiva and a chance to evolve further. It also means if bharata completely looses this key, humanity will have to make a fresh start or perhaves perish. It also shows why anything outside the sanatan hindu dharma fold doesn't work in the land called bharata. shiva is the supreme god in this land and maa durga is his power. Try anything else, we will perish.

I believe it is as straight forward as that. And this straight forward conclusion seems to me more profound than any 'internal' / 'spiritual' meaning that can be given to the jotirlingas.

IMHO

sarabhanga
29 June 2006, 02:21 AM
The first Jyotirlinga is Somanatha, and the primary expression of Soma is the Moon.

Surya is the principal Aditya (bright light), and Soma is the principal Daitya (dark light).

The ancient Shaiva perspective began (of course) with an understanding of only 5 Jyotirlinga , and the idea of 12 Jyotirlinga actually relates to the later (imported) system of dividing the Lagnamandala (Zodiac) into 12 segments.

The Heavens are the Lagnamandala or Lakshamandala (i.e. Amrityuloka); and the Earth is the Alakshamandala (i.e. Mrityuloka).

The original Shiva Lingamandala (above) is reflected below as the Lingamandala of 12 distinguished Jyotirlinga displayed on the very body of Sati (i.e. the Earth, and particularly Bharatavarsha, where Sati and her ultimate sacrifice is remembered as the Mother of earthly existence).

An elaborated system of Jyotirlingas and Shaktipithas has been explicitly revealed ONLY in Bharata, although the total of all the natural (and thus virtually eternal) sacred sites of all the indigenous cultures across the world is the best approximation to the global reality of this divine revelation.

sarabhanga
29 June 2006, 09:25 PM
द्वादशज्योतिर्लिङ्गस्मरणम्
|| dvādaśajyotirliṅgasmaraṇam ||



सौराष्ट्रे सोमनाथं च श्रीशैले मल्लिकार्जुनम् ।
उज्जयिन्यां महाकालमोङ्कारममलेश्वरम् ॥१॥
परल्यां वैद्यनाथं च डाकिन्यां भीमशङ्करम् ।
सेतुबन्धे तु रामेशं नागेशं दारुकावने ॥२॥
वाराणस्यां तु विश्वेशं त्र्यम्बकं गौतमीतटे ।
हिमालये तु केदारं घुश्मेशं च शिवालये ॥३॥
एतानि ज्योतिर्लिङ्गानि सायं प्रातः पठेन्नरः ।
सप्तजन्मकृतं पापं स्मरणेन विनश्यति ॥४॥

॥ इति द्वादशज्योतिर्लिङ्गस्मरणं सम्पूर्णम् ॥




saurāṣṭre somanāthaṁ ca śrīśaile mallikārjunam |
ujjayinyāṁ mahākālam oṅkāram amaleśvaram ||1||

paralyāṁ vaidyanāthaṁ ca ḍākinyāṁ bhīmaśaṅkaram |
setubandhe tu rāmeśaṁ nāgeśaṁ dārukāvane ||2||

vārāṇasyāṁ tu viśveśaṁ tryambakaṁ gautamītaṭe |
himālaye tu kedāraṁ ghuśmeśaṁ ca śivālaye ||3||

etāni jyotirliṅgāni sāyaṁ prātaḥ paṭhennaraḥ |
saptajanmakṛtaṁ pāpaṁ smaraṇena vinaśyati ||4||


|| iti dvādaśajyotirliṅgasmaraṇaṁ sampūrṇam ||

sarabhanga
29 June 2006, 10:46 PM
The 12 Jyotirlinga considered as equal divisions of the whole derives from the original vedic ideal of 11 rays from a single source ~ i.e. 12 indicates 11 + 1 (just as 4 indicates 3 + 1). And the ancient Lord of these 11 rays is the Kashyapa who reigns from Kashi (Varanasi) as Shri Vishvesha (the Lord of All).



ekādaśivandanā

हे जिह्वे भज विश्वनाथं बद्रीकेदारभस्मेश्वराः ।
भीमाशङ्करबैजनाथहृदये नागेश्वरारामेश्वराः ॥
ओङ्कारेममलेश्वरं स्मरहरं महाकालं मल्लिकार्जुनम् ।
ध्यायेत्त्र्यंबकसोमनाथमनिशं एकादशि ॐ नमः ॥

he jihve bhaja viśvanāthaṁ badrīkedārabhasmeśvarāḥ |
bhīmāśaṅkarabaijanāthahṛdaye nāgeśvarārāmeśvarāḥ ||
oṅkāremamaleśvaraṁ smaraharaṁ mahākālaṁ mallikārjunam |
dhyāyettryaṁbakasomanāthamaniśaṁ ekādaśi om namaḥ ||

sarabhanga
02 July 2006, 07:51 AM
हर हर महादेव शम्भु कशी विश्वनाथ गङ्गे
hara hara mahādeva śambhu kaśī viśvanātha gaṅge

sarabhanga
03 July 2006, 10:12 PM
:bowdown: Shri Kedara Natha Ji ~ Nirvana Darshana

sarabhanga
08 July 2006, 02:13 AM
श्रीविश्वनाथस्तोत्रम्
|| śrīviśvanāthastotram ||



उपहरणं विभवानां संहरणं सकलदुरितजालस्य ।
उद्धरणं संसाराच्चरणं वः श्रेयसेऽस्तु विश्वपतेः ॥१॥

upaharaṇaṁ vibhavānāṁ saṁharaṇaṁ sakaladuritajālasya |
uddharaṇaṁ saṁsārāccaraṇaṁ vaḥ śreyase'stu viśvapateḥ ||1||


भिक्षुकोऽपि सकलेप्सितदाता प्रेतभूमिनिलयोऽपि पवित्रः ।
भूतमित्रमपि योऽभयसत्री तं विचित्रचरितं शिवमीडे ॥२॥

bhikṣuko'pi sakalepsitadātā pretabhūminilayo'pi pavitraḥ |
bhūtamitramapi yo'bhayasatrī taṁ vicitracaritaṁ śivamīḍe ||2||

sarabhanga
09 July 2006, 07:21 AM
द्वादशज्योतिर्लिङ्गस्तोत्रम्
|| dvādaśajyotirliṅgastotram ||



सौराष्ट्रदेशे विशदेऽतिरम्ये ज्योतिर्मयं चन्द्रकलावतंसम् ।
बक्तिप्रदानाय कृपावतीर्णं तं सोमनाथं शरणं प्रपद्ये ॥१॥

saurāṣṭradeśe viśade'tiramye jyotirmayaṁ candrakalāvataṁsam |
baktipradānāya kṛpāvatīrṇaṁ taṁ somanāthaṁ śaraṇaṁ prapadye ||1||


श्रीसैलशृङ्गे विबुधातिसङ्गे तुलाद्रितुङ्गेऽपि मुदा वसन्तम् ।
तमर्जुनं मल्लिकपूर्वमेकं नमामि संसारसमुद्रसेतुम् ॥२॥

śrīsailaśṛṅge vibudhātisaṅge tulādrituṅge'pi mudā vasantam |
tamarjunaṁ mallikapūrvamekaṁ namāmi saṁsārasamudrasetum ||2||


अवन्तिकायां विहितावतारं मुक्तिप्रदानाय च सज्जनानाम् ।
अकालमृत्योः परिरक्षणार्थं वन्दे महाकालमहासुरेशम् ॥३॥

avantikāyāṁ vihitāvatāraṁ muktipradānāya ca sajjanānām |
akālamṛtyoḥ parirakṣaṇārthaṁ vande mahākālamahāsureśam ||3||


कावेरिकानर्मदयोः पवित्रे समागमे सज्जनतारणाय ।
सदैव मान्धातृपुरे वसन्तमोङ्कारमीशं शिवमेकमीडे ॥४॥

kāverikānarmadayoḥ pavitre samāgame sajjanatāraṇāya |
sadaiva māndhātṛpure vasantamoṅkāramīśaṁ śivamekamīḍe ||4||


पूर्वोत्तरे प्रज्वलिकानिधाने सदा वसन्तं गिरिजासमेतम् ।
सुरासुराराधितपादपद्मं श्रीवैद्यनाथं तमहं नमामि ॥५॥

pūrvottare prajvalikānidhāne sadā vasantaṁ girijāsametam |
surāsurārādhitapādapadmaṁ śrīvaidyanāthaṁ tamahaṁ namāmi ||5||


याम्ये सदङ्गे नगरेऽतिरम्ये विभूषिताङ्गं विविधैश्च भोगैः ।
सद्धक्तिमुक्तिप्रदमीशमेकं श्रीनागनाथं शरणं प्रपद्ये ॥६॥

yāmye sadaṅge nagare'tiramye vibhūṣitāṅgaṁ vividhaiśca bhogaiḥ |
saddhaktimuktipradamīśamekaṁ śrīnāganāthaṁ śaraṇaṁ prapadye ||6||


महाद्रिपार्श्व च तटे रमन्तं सम्पूज्यमानं सततं मुनीन्द्रैः ।
सुरामुरैर्यक्षमहोरगाद्यैः केदारमीशं शिवमेकमीडे ॥७॥

mahādripārśva ca taṭe ramantaṁ sampūjyamānaṁ satataṁ munīndraiḥ |
surāmurairyakṣamahoragādyaiḥ kedāramīśaṁ śivamekamīḍe ||7||


सहाद्रिशीर्षे विमले वसन्तं गोदावरीतीरपवित्रदेशे ।
यद्दर्शनात्पातकमाशु नाशं प्रयाति तं त्र्यम्बकमीशमीडे ॥८॥

sahādriśīrṣe vimale vasantaṁ godāvarītīrapavitradeśe |
yaddarśanātpātakamāśu nāśaṁ prayāti taṁ tryambakamīśamīḍe ||8||


सुताम्रपर्णीजलराशियोगे निबध्य सेतुं विशिखैरसंख्यैः ।
श्रीरामचन्द्रेण समर्पितं तं रमेश्वराख्यं नियतं नमामि ॥९॥

sutāmraparṇījalarāśiyoge nibadhya setuṁ viśikhairasaṁkhyaiḥ |
śrīrāmacandreṇa samarpitaṁ taṁ rameśvarākhyaṁ niyataṁ namāmi ||9||


यं डाकिनीशाकिनिकासमाजे निषेव्यमाणं पिशिताशनैश्च ।
सदैव भीमादिपदप्रसिद्धं तं शङ्करं भक्तहितं नमामि ॥१०॥

yaṁ ḍākinīśākinikāsamāje niṣevyamāṇaṁ piśitāśanaiśca |
sadaiva bhīmādipadaprasiddhaṁ taṁ śaṅkaraṁ bhaktahitaṁ namāmi ||10||


सानन्दमानन्दवेने वसन्तमानन्दकन्दं हतपापवृन्दम् ।
वाराणसीनाथमनाथनाथं श्रीविश्वनाथं शरणं प्रपद्ये ॥११॥

sānandamānandavene vasantamānandakandaṁ hatapāpavṛndam |
vārāṇasīnāthamanāthanāthaṁ śrīviśvanāthaṁ śaraṇaṁ prapadye ||11||


इलापुरे रम्यविशालकेऽस्मिन्समुल्लसन्तं च जगद्वरेण्यम् ।
वन्दे महोदारतरस्वभावं घृष्णोश्वराख्यं शरणं प्रपद्ये ॥१२॥

ilāpure ramyaviśālake'sminsamullasantaṁ ca jagadvareṇyam |
vande mahodāratarasvabhāvaṁ ghṛṣṇośvarākhyaṁ śaraṇaṁ prapadye ||12||


ज्योतिर्मयद्वादशलिङ्गकानां शिवात्मनां प्रोक्तमिदं क्रमेण ।
स्तोत्रं पठित्वा मनुजोऽतिभक्त्या फलं तदालोक्य निजं भजेच्च ॥१३॥

jyotirmayadvādaśaliṅgakānāṁ śivātmanāṁ proktamidaṁ krameṇa |
stotraṁ paṭhitvā manujo'tibhaktyā phalaṁ tadālokya nijaṁ bhajecca ||13||



॥ इति द्वादशज्योतिर्लिङ्गस्तोत्रं सम्पूर्णम् ॥
|| iti dvādaśajyotirliṅgastotraṁ sampūrṇam ||

sarabhanga
22 July 2006, 06:14 AM
Shri Barah Jyotirlinga Yantra ;)

sarabhanga
25 July 2006, 09:42 PM
Somanatha Pattana:

The first Jyotirlinga is Somanatha (Prabhasa Pattana) in Saurastra (the region of Surat), was famous even before 1000 BC, and Shri Krishna is credited with building a wooden temple there. It is the place where Krishna disappeared, his incarnation terminated by a hunter’s arrow. The hunter’s name was Jara (old age), and the arrow of time that pierced Krishna’s vital spot (the vulnerable royal heel) was fired by Sharva-Shiva. Near to the site of Krishna’s death (Balka Tirtha, near the Triveni where the Hiranya and Kapila rivers merge with Sarasvati) there is a ruined Surya temple (c.100 CE), and ancient Linga abound; but Shri Krishna’s final kingdom in Darukavana is now more remembered at modern Dwarka (near the northwestern extremity of the Kathiawar Peninsula).

Old Dvaraka actually stood near Madhupura, about 145 km SE from the modern township, and near to Mount Raivataka, which can only be the Girnar Hills. This region has an ancient association with the Siddhas, and was an important site at the time of Ashoka.

Two previous structures are supposed to have existed at Somanatha: a golden temple erected by the Somaraja (Candra – the Moon), which was replaced by a silver temple erected by Raivata (one of the Rudras). And mighty Bhima is said to have replaced Krishna’s wooden temple with one made from stone.

A stone temple was constructed at Somanatha, which flourished throughout the Gupta period (5th Century CE ruins litter the site today). Its glory, and the splendor of its great riches, became so renowned (a visiting Arab, Al Biruni, reported 300 musicians, 500 dancing girls, and 300 Brahmana just to shave the heads of pilgrims) that the Afghani Musalman Mahmud of Ghazni was moved to lead an expedition to Saurastra in 1024 CE. In two days of pillage, the inhabitants of Somanatha Pattana were slaughtered, the Mandira was destroyed, and the famous Linga lay shattered. Repeated rebuilding efforts, after repeated destruction by Musalman raiders (1297 and 1394 CE), faltered in 1706 CE when the Mughal Musalman Aurangzeb finally sacked Somanatha and converted the ruins into a mosque. A new Somnath Mandir was not established until 1950 CE.

sarabhanga
06 August 2006, 08:21 PM
Mandhatripura ~ Shri Omkareshvara

sarabhanga
12 August 2006, 08:21 PM
Shri Tryambakeshvara Jyotirlinga Puja

sarabhanga
15 August 2006, 08:36 AM
Tryambakam yajāmahe sugandhim pushtivardhanam,
Urvārukamiva bandhanānmrityormukshīya māmritāt.

sarabhanga
20 July 2007, 11:00 PM
Mahākāla !

Nuno Matos
23 July 2007, 10:29 PM
Namaste

I do find plausible a relation between the Lingas and the pre-historic phallic rocks here in Europe and specially in Portugal were they are the most elaborated one. I have heard from historical fonts that the ancient Saraswati Brahmin people in a remote past my have come from what is now know Portugal spread to central Asia and then to India, there are genetic as historic evidences that prove this theory, never the less the ancient world is still full of uncertainty's and mysteries to be solved.
The lingas here are very beautiful and ornamented and the history of Portugal with India is not just exploitation and destrution.
I would like your comments on that.


Om namah shivaya!

sarabhanga
24 July 2007, 02:04 AM
I have heard from historical fonts that the ancient Saraswati Brahmin people in a remote past my have come from what is now know Portugal spread to central Asia and then to India, there are genetic as historic evidences that prove this theory


Namaste Nuno,

Standing stones (or menhirs) and phallic emblems were quite common in the ancient world. Are Portuguese menhirs more ancient than all the others? Can you provide, or give reference to, any of the other evidence that supposedly proves this theory? The erection of menhirs is characteristic of all mega-lithic (big-stone) cultures.

Nuno Matos
24 July 2007, 05:03 PM
Namaste dear Sarabhanga


Yes they are. In fact standing stones in Iberia especially in Alentejo Portugal are the most ancient standing stones know by scientists and they go back to the beginning of neolithic culture. What make this stones different is the fact that they are prior to any of the others achievements of megalithic culture proved by the fact that the stones are found alone in a field and not in a group as in Stonehenge's or as making part of a larger group of stones although there are grouped stones as well.
Facts to consider:

1-The stones are found alone
2- They are smaller
3- They are ornamented
4- the stones wore used for religious proposes and not political or as burial decoration that came later.

This is According to crookscape*, and some oder site's on the internet about Portuguese neolithic. Believing my translation of a small sample of text from that site, here in its Portuguese version:

"Deixando objectivamente de fora outras considerações igualmente pertinentes, este quadro faz notar e reforça aquilo que Manuel Calado tem vindo a chamar a atenção, ou seja, a forte tendência para situarmos o fenómeno menírico no momento mais recuado do neolítico, no alentejo."

and now in English:

Putting behind objectively oder considerations equally pertinent, this frame makes notice and reaffirms what Manuel Calado has been calling the attention to and that is, the strong trend to situate the meniric phenomena in a more ancient period of the neolithic in Alentejo.



The connection between the actual Konkani speakers and West Iberian is more obscure never the less there are scientific documents that can prove an historic relation between the two in a period that goes back at least 6 thousand years ago, they are credited to have introduced the art of shaping metal in Iberia.
Now in relation to the genetic group of the Saraswati Brahmins i would like only to ask if they have unabrow? Thats an an Atlantic genetic mark.
I dont want to take what i have said to seriously, especially in what concerns genetics, because a lot of things as i have already said are still very obscure and in investigation.
If you want a more elaborated answer, that will take some time for me to gather all the disperse info about the subject.
Thank you!


* http://www.crookscape.org/textdez2005/text06.html
http://www.crookscape.org/textmsls2006/n_00moonspring.html

"The earliest Neolithic monuments in Brittany and Portugal may have been created while Mesolithic cemeteries were still in use" (Bradley, 1998: 34)
"The distribution of larger monuments of this form might be more consistent with Mesolithic antecedents then with an ultimate origin in the heartlands of Neolithic Europe" (Bradley, 1998: 61)

Om namah shivaya!

sarabhanga
28 July 2007, 12:16 AM
Namaste Nuno,

It does indeed appear that the oldest known standing stones are in Iberia, but was it the ancient Portuguese who actually went to all of the far flung locations where such menhirs are known, or was it just the idea (or the technical ability to manipulate large stones) that spread from the Iberian Peninsula and ushered in the “megalithic” age?

Menhirs are found in India (mainly in the south), but civilization in the Sarasvati region was already ancient when the earliest menhirs appeared (after 2000 BC ?).

The supposed linga excavated from Indus-Sarasvati (c. 2,500 BC) sites are much smaller, made from stone or molded from clay, and perhaps associated with a circular plinth (or yoni).

http://www.archaeologyonline.net/indology/siva-linga-harappa.jpg

Shaivism seems to have developed from ancestor worship, so that death and after-life (as much as fertility, prosperity, or protection) ritual purposes would be inseparable from religious (and likely also political) purposes.

Konkani has ancient roots in India, and is perhaps connected with the old Indus-Sarasvati language, but the region of Goa has suffered very much Portuguese influence over more recent centuries and Konkani now includes many loan words from Portuguese.

And as for “unibrows”, I have no idea!

Nuno Matos
08 August 2007, 01:50 PM
Namaste Sarabhanga


There are recent genetic evidences of that spreading from the north of Africa after the first Ice age thought Iberian Peninsula ending on India and not the contrary. The coming back will happen later. See what the latest study s on populations genetics suggest.
The unibrow it´s a genetic characteristic of the Atlantic man and woman and its very usual to find it in Iberia, the Alps, Ireland, Scotland,France, Germany, central Asia, India, Persia and Afghanistan. So I believe that the so called Aryans who "invaded" India, i don't believe in a real invasion, wore the same that lift up does stones in Iberia much earlier than 2000 BC, maybe 12000 BC. And migrated from Europe trough and in central Asia as they settle, finally reaching India and growing Citys there. In what is now know the Indo-Kush ( Pakistan, Himalayas and North India) region that was already well populated of different tribal and genetic groups.This was progressive process it must had its first impulse 15000 years ago (suggested date). Sometimes violent sometimes cooperative. And then slowly progressive trough the Indian sub continent.
If this discussion goes on don't you think it is better to change the place of posting or create some new tread related with the history of Sanatana Dharma?

sarabhanga
09 August 2007, 05:18 AM
Namaste Nuno,

The oldest menhirs in Portugal are perhaps dated from around 4,000 BC, but certainly not 12,000 BC!

Homo sapiens appeared (in Africa) about 100,000 years ago, and by 40,000 years ago humans had spread (via India) all the way to Australia.

When did the Iberian “stone-lifters” begin their supposed migration? 15,000 years ago? That would be 10,000 years before the oldest known standing stones were invented back home in Iberia!

The Aryan influx is supposed to have occurred after 2,000 BC, and the Aryans were preoccupied with fire-ritual rather than the worship of stone lingas.

What evidence is there of the “unibrow” status of the native Indus-Sarasvati population or of the incoming Aryans”?

None of this makes much sense to me!

Nuno Matos
09 August 2007, 08:45 AM
Namaste Sarabhanga

The neolithic starts according to Wikipedia 12000 BC. Scientists today appoint the beginning of stone culture in Iberia before and not after the neolithic started so i think 15000 is a good number for the starting of the migration. Have you read the subjects exposed in the links in my previous posts about the beginning of stone culture in Iberia.
In Iberia the menirs wore used for purposes of rituals of procreation, as religious object, as a mark signaling a buried corpse or the place of a grave( om namah shivaya), or as mark for moon observation. Doesn't that looks like some of the primitive attributions of a Linga in Shaivism and its relations with the moon cults.
The fire! Yes for travelers in that period keeping the fire alive was the most important and precious thing, life's depended on it has they crossed the gelid steeps of Eurasia and central Asia. The fire as an invention is much more older than standing stones or what ever we know as human.
Never the less and although the scientific findings and evidences this all matter doesn't make to much sense to me as well, if its going to divide instead of unite. I thought it was a good controversial subject to discuss and i am quite convinced of its veracity.Lets go back to mythologies instead.
Let me tell you the story that made me abandon to some degree the Christian faith. One day a local priest from a reputed order invited me to go with him watching a exposition on butterfly s. It was a very nice guy that priest he even show me the place were the order had a house and garden in Lisbon he wanted me to join the order.When all off the sudden i came upon some rare butterfly and i told him according to what was written about that butterfly that she belonged to the order X of butterfly s when for my surprise the priest told me that what i was seeing, that was according to what was written on the brochure about that butterfly, was something else, order Y of butterfly s he told me. -You must be wrong, i said, but the priest keep on telling me,-No I'm not! Infuriated he become. Since that day i have never trusted very much priest words I think most of them are just people with ego ( games) problems.Hope to be wrong. Om namah shivaya!


Love, Light!

sarabhanga
10 August 2007, 01:29 AM
Namaste Nuno,

Perhaps stone-age culture (which does not necessarily include the erection of large stones) began in Iberia around 12,000 BC, but ALL dolmens, menhirs, etc. in Portugal have been dated somewhere from the late 5th millennium to the early 4th millennium BC ~ i.e. between 4,500 BC and 3,500 BC, or “around 4,000 BC” !

Once established, the idea almost immediately began spreading (in all directions), so perhaps this is associated with the migration of Iberians across long distances, or perhaps only the idea spread, step by step, through neighboring cultures.

The supposed Aryan influx into India (after 2,000 BC) may be connected with the arrival of Iberian megalithic culture, but most menhirs are in southern India (after 1,000 BC) and the Aryans came (with fire rituals, but not linga worship) from the north.

The Iberian megaliths all seem to be connected with a lunar ritual calendar, and the Shiva linga likewise has lunar and time-keeping associations.

I am not dogmatic about any of this, only going by available evidence, but I remain unconvinced.