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satay
05 January 2009, 10:01 AM
Namaskar,

I was meditating on the following shloka and could not comprehend why anyone would take on the task of preaching the secret knowledge of gita to those that are not ready including indians and westerners.

Why do some gurus ignore this shloka and come to the west to preach?

18.67

idam te natapaskaya
nabhaktaya kadacana
na casusrusave vacyam
na ca mam yo bhyasuyati

This confidential knowledge may never be explained to those who are not austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me.

http://vedabase.net/bg/18/67/en

yajvan
05 January 2009, 01:49 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté satay


you mention

I was meditating on the following shloka and could not comprehend why anyone would take on the task of preaching the secret knowledge of gita to those that are not ready including indians and westerners. Why do some gurus ignore this shloka and come to the west to preach?
A very reasonable question… let me mention one item before I give you my opinion on this. The Śvetāśvatara¹ Upaniṣad (Chapt 4, sloka 8) takes a ṛk from the rig veda and says the following:
The Veda or ṛk-s, reside in the transcendental field or akṣara ( the imperishable, pure Reality, Brahman) , of the highest (parama) ethereal Being (vyoman) in which reside all the adhi vishve deva's (or impulses of creative intelligence, the laws of Nature), responsible for the whole manifest universe. He whose awareness is not open (na veda) to this field, what can the verses accomplish for him?

Those who know this level of reality are established in evenness (sama or even-ness) , in That ( Tat or būmán) fullness-wholeness of life, abundance (samasta - whole, united).

What does this say in short? Of what use is the ved, for he whom is not becoming established in the Absolute? Where will be the value of this great knowledge other then words? It says, become established in ātman, the avyayam (undecaying not liable to change , imperishable), the even-ness to reap the full value of the knowledge.

So there are two ideas I wish to submit to the reader:

That of study and reading yet with no sādhana or upāya (skillful means) to experience ātman;
And that of a teacher or guru teaching but without offering the method to gain this fruit of the ātman.These two points are tightly coupled, no? The knowledge does not come to life… it remains in the book, in words. Knowledge must be accompanied by experience. We can talk about the banana all day (said my teacher), we can know its composition, its weight, all that, yet the proof is in the pudding ( eating it) - then the knowledge becomes lively in our awareness, the appreciation increases, we bring merit to the physics of the banana.

So now to the question of why guru-s and teachers teach? IMHO they teach what is needed to inspire and light the knowledge of interest enough to move an individual to upāsana. Many a wise teacher knows not to offer the most esoteric concepts to the ṣiśya (student) as the awareness has not been developed to absorb the ideas.

That is why I hope HDF plays its role… to assist, offer and perhaps stimulate the awareness to higher levels of interest.
I am in hopes this is a service that HDF provides. Some times we may offer too much ( that could be me), yet there are those advanced here and they deserve the knowledge. I am not big on a separate forum for advanced concepts and principles, but can see the benefits.

One last point - We also find the wisdom of Kṛṣṇa's teaching approach found in the Bhāgavad gītā . One can view the Bhāgavad gītā in 3 sections - Chapt 1 to 6, 7 to 12, and 13 to 18. The knowledge gets deeper and deeper and thus is most beneficial to be accompanied by some direct experience of pure consciousness from the reader to reap the benefits.

I find it most valuable to keep conversations on HDF within the first 6 chapters. If we had one society that was able to put these 6 chapters to practice, they would begin to experience heaven on earth.

praṇām

reference
The Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad (6.21) says, The sage Śvetāśvatara got this knowledge of Brahman, which is very sacred and revered by many great sages, through his penance and through God's grace, and he taught it very well to his disciples.

santosh
05 January 2009, 08:29 PM
> This confidential knowledge may never be explained to those who are not austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me.

Hare Krishna Satayji,

Yes, Lord Himself is saying that this confidential knowledge should not be given to those who are not ready, not austere, envious of Krishna etc. However one can not know until one preaches who is ready to receive Krishna Bhakti and who is not. To worship the Supreme Lord is within the nature of the jiva but different jivas are covered with different degrees are covering of ignorance. However true that may be, equal "first" chance "must" be given to all without any prejudgement. Just like the school system gives open admission at the first grade level. Some of the children admitted to first grade in due course of time graduate from school, then go to college, then to university and become great doctors, scientists win noble prize etc., but other children may simply can not handle beyond 4th grade and drop out. But the school authorities can not discriminate by prejudging when a six year old little one comes for admission and say no admission for you, we think you are not good enough to be in our school. No, first chance must be given to everyone. That's what fair system means. However the school doesn't force anyone to come to school and stay in school or college.

Similarly a Saint preaches to everybody giving everybody first chance. Preaching is not forcing. A bonafide Guru out of his kindness is simply speaking message of the Lord - anyone sincere will take it, anyone who is not ready or envious of Lord will not take it.

There are so many examples of this - like 13th century saint Gyaneshwar. He translated Bhagavad Gita into prakrit (local language at that time in Maharashtra) and he and his brothers and sisters freely preached to anyone. Not everybody they preached to, was ready, some rejected it. It was their loss. Similarly the story of Saint Tukaram and saint Namdeo.

One modern example is that of Srila Prabhupada who on the order of his Guru Maharaj, Srila BhaktiSiddhanta Saraswati Maharaj, translated Srimad Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam into english and preached in the west and in India and see what wonderful result he achieved by faithfully following the instruction of his Guru Maharaj. Thousands and thousands of people who had never heard the Name of Krishna, became devotees in the west and in India. And even today thousands are practicing it today.

satay
06 January 2009, 10:02 AM
> This confidential knowledge may never be explained to those who are not austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me.

Hare Krishna Satayji,

Yes, Lord Himself is saying that this confidential knowledge should not be given to those who are not ready, not austere, envious of Krishna etc. However

Namaskar,

There cannot be any 'however' if one is to follow Lord's instruction. Either we follow his instruction completely and faithfully or we don't. There cannot be any ifs, buts or howevers.

The instruction is clearly given. Thus no other explanation is required and if one is provided it is satisfy one's own ego.

Preaching or any other related activity is not required as it makes it look like that the Lord cannot handle the human condition by himself and he must employ the so called preacher gurus or spirtualists to do his job.

We should have complete faith in the ability of the Lord.

santosh
06 January 2009, 04:13 PM
The duty undertaken by Saints throughout the history is to enlighten others about the Higher Truth. If they didn't do it, we all will live in ignorance and human society will disintegrate.

When "we" do things, it is usually out of some false ego because we are not pure. But the Saints are pure, devoid of false ego. Even today you will see on aastha, sanskar channels in India, there are so many saints who are preaching the message of Bhagavad Gita etc. Because they are on this planet only to enlighten us. That's why so many authors have translated Bhagavad Gita (over 700 translations) in their attempt to help others. Mahatma Gandhiji regularly conducted satsangs and he guided so many of his followers about the wisdom of Bhagavad Gita.

satay
06 January 2009, 07:02 PM
Namaskar Santosh,

The instruction is

"This confidential knowledge may never be explained to those who are not austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me.
"


The duty undertaken by Saints throughout the history is to enlighten others about the Higher Truth. If they didn't do it, we all will live in ignorance and human society will disintegrate.


Hmm...



When "we" do things, it is usually out of some false ego because we are not pure. But the Saints are pure, devoid of false ego. Even today you will see on aastha, sanskar channels in India, there are so many saints who are preaching the message of Bhagavad Gita etc. Because they are on this planet only to enlighten us. That's why so many authors have translated Bhagavad Gita (over 700 translations) in their attempt to help others. Mahatma Gandhiji regularly conducted satsangs and he guided so many of his followers about the wisdom of Bhagavad Gita.

No Comment.

Do you think that if none of the saints ever talked about God or Gita that Lord's message would not be found? Does the Lord have the ability to inspire people and reveal himself on his own or not? I know we can't really answer this question but just putting it out there for thought.

I wonder...

SANT
26 August 2009, 04:36 AM
There cannot be any 'however' if one is to follow Lord's instruction. Either we follow his instruction completely and faithfully or we don't. There cannot be any ifs, buts or howevers.

The instruction is clearly given. Thus no other explanation is required and if one is provided it is satisfy one's own ego.

Preaching or any other related activity is not required as it makes it look like that the Lord cannot handle the human condition by himself and he must employ the so called preacher gurus or spirtualists to do his job.

We should have complete faith in the ability of the Lord.
__________________

I dont know what other translation one can get but the word here mentioned is MAY & not SHOULD.

rkpande
26 August 2009, 09:45 AM
dear SANT,

namaskar,

I was just wondering that if a physicist was asked to explain theory of relativity, or unified field theory or may be Heisenberg uncertainty principle, to your students of the school you mentioned or to those who have dropped out, what will the scientist do. perhaps he will say a big NO NO, the students are not prepared. Even if he is forced to do, what will he do, he will use similes, metaphors, exaggerations and stories, which may closely relate to the theory but not the theory itself,
That is why Puranas were created. Vedas and Upanishads expositions are perhaps more difficult to explain even to a prepared student than above mentioned theories. We will waste our time teaching Gita or Upanishads to those whom Lord Krishna mentions. If we do, we are doing against HIS teachings.

bhaktajan
26 August 2009, 09:51 AM
"This confidential knowledge may never be explained to those who are not austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me."


1 -- What was the "CK"? [the Confidential Knowledge?] Don't post it on the WWW!!! Have faith!

2 -- " . . . may never be explained to . . . " especially, for the next 5,000 years until the 20th century CE --and then after that, only for one chore --" . . . until I advent again to re-establish sanatana-Dharma . . . ".

A preacher knows what this warning signifies --it was Duryodhana-esque types that Krishna spoke of at the ending of His 'Pep' speech to Arjuna-maha-bahu.

Did Krishna then immediately explain "Or else . . . this-or-that will occur to the preacher who ---wastes time preaching to 'Non-receptive-Non-canidates'?

No. Krishna does not then explain any consequences to preaching the most confidential Knowledge to those types of persons who "spiritually incabable of being a real/absolute Thiest" ---such persons (they may be your own freiends & relatives & teachers too) are, in relation to Krishna & the mere revelation of "Who is this Krishna fellow?" ---such persons are, for all intents and purposes:
1 not austere,
2 not-devoted,
3 not engaged in bhakti-yoga/yagya/seva/bhajan/sadhana
4 nor a wellwisher ---but who is envious.

The zen of Propagating Krishna's Fame requires efficiency of effort ---go for those already engaged to so-called civic/social welfare work.

Do not disturb the mind of the non-knowers but encourage them in their application of their work aptitudes.

SANT
26 August 2009, 11:03 AM
dear SANT,

namaskar,

I was just wondering that if a physicist was asked to explain theory of relativity, or unified field theory or may be Heisenberg uncertainty principle, to your students of the school you mentioned or to those who have dropped out, what will the scientist do. perhaps he will say a big NO NO, the students are not prepared. Even if he is forced to do, what will he do, he will use similes, metaphors, exaggerations and stories, which may closely relate to the theory but not the theory itself,
That is why Puranas were created. Vedas and Upanishads expositions are perhaps more difficult to explain even to a prepared student than above mentioned theories. We will waste our time teaching Gita or Upanishads to those whom Lord Krishna mentions. If we do, we are doing against HIS teachings.

I understand what youre saying is true but understand this that, one who is interested in metaphysics, only he will sit through the lecture.
Are you going to sit in a class where metaphyisics is taught or are you going to go and watch the cricket match.Its upto your interest.
If one can miss the cricket match to learn more about metaphysics then dont you think that he should be taught metaphysics.
Mr satay here who while meditating on the shloka got a divine vision that a krishna bhakt who has spread the golden word and love of krishna all across the globe has suddenly become wrong and he has gone against god's order and now its upto him to inform everybody.
We all know who your reference is so let me answer.
His divine grace never forcefully expalined the gita to anyone.
His divine grace was only doing what his guru told him to do.
SO now if your so strict about following verses then it is said that Gurur Brahma Gurur Vishnu, Gurur Devo Mahesh Varah. Guru Shakshat Para Brahma,
so in a way he was following parbrahma's words only.
Second it was chaitanya mahaprabhu who wanted the this knowledge to be given to the whole world.Chaitanya mahaprabu was krishna himself.

Third bhaktjan has clearly mentioned those non adhikaris nature so being a westerner doesnt make you a non adhikari.Besides adi shankaracharya has said that everyone has a right to know brahma.

Fourth his divine grace did not explain the whole gita at one time as you think.Its Not like he sat there and forcefully blasted bhagavad gita into everyone's ears.He was spreading kirshna's message.Now how would he know that some people who are not adhikaris they aslo will come and listen to the gita lectures.If you remember even dhristhashtra who was i guess the perfect example of non adhikari listened to the gita along with arjuna.
The bhagavad gita has been translated and intepreted in a way to suit a scholars own philososphy but it was his divine grace who presented it as it is.

satay
26 August 2009, 07:08 PM
namaskar,
Welcome to HDF.



Mr satay here who while meditating on the shloka got a divine vision

I wish I had a 'vision' alas I had no such thing. :)

kd gupta
28 August 2009, 10:36 AM
Namaskar,

I was meditating on the following shloka and could not comprehend why anyone would take on the task of preaching the secret knowledge of gita to those that are not ready including indians and westerners.

Why do some gurus ignore this shloka and come to the west to preach?

18.67

idam te natapaskaya
nabhaktaya kadacana
na casusrusave vacyam
na ca mam yo bhyasuyati

This confidential knowledge may never be explained to those who are not austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me.

http://vedabase.net/bg/18/67/en

Simple answer..a short story
There was a tree . A small bird had made a nest on it . A monkey was a casual visitor of the tree , and thus just Hai , Hello was with bird . One day it was raining and monkey master came drenching . Small bird advised , my friend , just make a small room like me…Hmmm, o.k. just wait , monkey replied . The rain stopped, monkey came and breaking the nest told…..you dare to advice me…

atanu
28 August 2009, 12:07 PM
Namaskar,

I was meditating on the following shloka and could not comprehend why anyone would take on the task of preaching the secret knowledge of gita to those that are not ready including indians and westerners.

Why do some gurus ignore this shloka and come to the west to preach?

18.67

idam te natapaskaya
nabhaktaya kadacana
na casusrusave vacyam
na ca mam yo bhyasuyati

This confidential knowledge may never be explained to those who are not austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me.

http://vedabase.net/bg/18/67/en

Namaste Satay,

The very next verses however clarify:

Ya imam paramam guhyam madbhakteshvabhidhaasyati;
Bhaktim mayi paraam kritwaa maamevaishyatyasamshayah.

68. He who with supreme devotion to Me will teach this supreme secret to My devotees, shall doubtless come to Me.

Na cha tasmaanmanushyeshu kashchinme priyakrittamah;
Bhavitaa na cha me tasmaadanyah priyataro bhuvi.

69. Nor is there any among men who does dearer service to Me, nor shall there be another on earth dearer to Me than he.

Adhyeshyate cha ya imam dharmyam samvaadamaavayoh;
Jnaanayajnena tenaaham ishtah syaamiti me matih.

70. And he who will study this sacred dialogue of ours, by him I shall have been worshipped by the sacrifice of wisdom; such is My conviction.

Shraddhaavaan anasooyashcha shrinuyaadapi yo narah;
So’pi muktah shubhaamllokaan praapnuyaat punyakarmanaam.

71. The man also who hears this, full of faith and free from malice, he, too, liberated, shall attain to the happy worlds of those of righteous deeds.
-----------------------------

First, read together, these ultimate verses of Gita do distinguish between vain arguments and genuine teaching. Vain arguments, based on a apurna view of Lord leads to bad results. Second, for one who has truly surrendered, there remains no doubt; whether a Guru teaches or a Guru desists. The events of the Universe are questioned no more.

Om Namah Shivaya

grames
31 August 2009, 07:42 AM
Your question ask me to ask you few questions....

1. So are you implying that none in the western world is ready to receive the knowledge of Gita? If the answer is no, then you have answer for your question.

2. Secondly, do you believe that you can explain BG to someone who are not even curious about what it is? BG is not that simple to understand. If there is curiosity, that curiosity is the good sign of something bigger and better. :)

If you can understand what i am conveying here, then you will understand why some of our Guruji's are in the west :)


Hare Krshna




Namaskar,

I was meditating on the following shloka and could not comprehend why anyone would take on the task of preaching the secret knowledge of gita to those that are not ready including indians and westerners.

Why do some gurus ignore this shloka and come to the west to preach?

18.67

idam te natapaskaya
nabhaktaya kadacana
na casusrusave vacyam
na ca mam yo bhyasuyati

This confidential knowledge may never be explained to those who are not austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me.

http://vedabase.net/bg/18/67/en

satay
31 August 2009, 11:52 AM
namaskar!
Nice to see you here!! Hope things are well with you.

Send me a PM...

Hare Krishna!


Your question ask me to ask you few questions....

1. So are you implying that none in the western world is ready to receive the knowledge of Gita? If the answer is no, then you have answer for your question.

2. Secondly, do you believe that you can explain BG to someone who are not even curious about what it is? BG is not that simple to understand. If there is curiosity, that curiosity is the good sign of something bigger and better. :)

If you can understand what i am conveying here, then you will understand why some of our Guruji's are in the west :)


Hare Krshna