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vcindiana
21 January 2009, 04:32 AM
will post it later

vcindiana
24 January 2009, 11:01 AM
In my little search I could not find a good explanation of pain/suffering in Geeta. There is more about the Karmic theory of explanation of these or trying to avoid this whole REAL issue by explaining in terms of Maya. I guess Saints and Sadhus are blessed. My question is how does a real Hindu deal with another ordinary human being in suffering? How does he help that person go through the adversary in keeping with the Hindu faith?

Love .... VC

atanu
24 January 2009, 11:42 AM
In my little search I could not find a good explanation of pain/suffering in Geeta.
Love .... VC

Namaste VC,

But I think that Gita starts with the pain of dilemma.

Om

vcindiana
24 January 2009, 01:10 PM
Dear Atanu: Thank You.
In Geeta Arjuna‘s problem was emotional bonding or attachments with his family members with whom he grew up, he did not want them to be killed. The dilemma he faced may sound painful but it is about choosing the right action based on the situation, his inherent gift, profession, skill, education etc...

Here I am talking about a person who is severely emotionally or physically suffering. How can this person help himself reading Geeta or get helped by his fellow person who has understood Geeta? How does this person get strength and courage to face the adversary?

Love..............VC

reflections
25 January 2009, 08:00 AM
Namaste vcindiana,
It is repeated through out the Gita to be balanced and equipoised in good and bad times. Ch-12 says
'Sam dukh Sukha Kshami' i.e. Devotee of God is one who is equipoised in pleasure and misery. 'Shubha Shubh Parityago Bhakti Manme Priyonar' One who has given up the distinction of 'good' and 'bad' is the devotee likened by God. Same thing is said again and again.

Plus, good times are result of good karmas and bad times are result of bad karmas, still good karma is like a golden chain and bad karmas are like iron chain. Chain is still a chain and will trap us irrespective of it being a golden chain or an iron one. So, the wise accepts good or bad times, and try to be equal in both.

Personally, I see it this way. In Vedanta, Karma is not thought of an independent entity. Ishvara 'Pesronal God' dispenses fruits of Karma. So, I feel depending upon my previous karma, Ishvara knows which situation is best for me. A mother still love the child, though she might be giving the child some bitter medication. So, I think he knows better than me.

VC, Gita starts with 'Vishad yog' Vishad means unhappiness. Arjuna had his own confusions, we will have our own doubts and miseries. Gita ends with 'Moksha Sanyas Yog' means liberation. So, Gita is the one to convert 'Vishad' into 'Moksha sanyas'.

When others are suffering, Gita obviously teach compassion.
Ch-6 says, 'Atmopamyen sarvatra samam pashyati yogin'. i.e. A yogi sees all living beings as his own self. So if I ever start treating the whole world as the part of my conciousness, how will I be not moved by their miseries?

Hope this answered you.

atanu
25 January 2009, 08:37 AM
Dear Atanu: Thank You.
In Geeta Arjuna‘s problem was emotional bonding or attachments with his family members with whom he grew up, he did not want them to be killed. The dilemma he faced may sound painful but it is about choosing the right action based on the situation, his inherent gift, profession, skill, education etc...

Here I am talking about a person who is severely emotionally or physically suffering. How can this person help himself reading Geeta or get helped by his fellow person who has understood Geeta? How does this person get strength and courage to face the adversary?

Love..............VC

Namaskar VC,

The following conversation has always helped me so I am noting it here.



A very stressed man approached a guru for mitigation of his pain. The following is an approximate translation of the dialog that followed.
Guru: Did you sleep in the night?
Devotee: Yes.
Guru: Were you aware of the pains in your sleep?
Devotee: No I slept peacefully. Pains reappeared when I woke up.
Guru: That person who was blissfully asleep and this person who is torn by pain, are they two different persons? Find out the nature of the blissful person to get rid of all pains.Om

One who reads Gita with faith will get the correct Jnana (wisdom) to by-pass the painful thoughts arising out of the incorrect notion "I am this body". Pain is actually a thought of past or of future, assuming identity of I and the body or the mind and also wishing for a preferred way of events.

Gita teaches Atma Jnana - knowledge of the Self. Shri Krishna emphasises again and again that forgetfulness of the nature of self is death -- the greatest pain.



Following in the wake of the question-answer cited in italics above, i have come to the following understanding that help to dispel the painful thoughts when they arise.
1. "I" am not the body, since a dead body never can say "I want to live, do not cremate me".
2. Mind is also not the "I", since in deep sleep, I exist very very blissfully, although the Mind is inactive.
3. In Brihadaraynaka Upanishad, sage Yajnyavalka explains to Raja Janaka that in sleep nothing is known since there is no second to be known. There is no other color that can be known. There is no other sound that can be known etc. etc. He affirms that the functions of the senses are immortal and can never be lost. One knows nothing in the sleep because there is no second. That gives a clear picture of one's true nature as infinite, bodiless, partitionless, and self re-juvenating.
4. Meditating all facts given above, i understand that there must be conditions hidden in the deep sleep that govern quality of one's dreams and also the waking state events.
5. i further understand that the sleep -- the highest form of tranquility, which is only marred by ignorance of the nature of sleep itself, does not come when there is desire in the mind.
6. Desires are preferences -- or aversions.
7. Brihadarayanaka Upanishad equates Desire with Death. Desire is Kala. Desire gets a body. Atman has no body.i understand that living without a preference, while not forgetting infinite nature of one's beginning (that is somehow marred by process of the mind), is conducive to overcome pains and with continued practice the sadhaka attains happiness without any blemish.

Studying Gita daily with faith will enlighten the reader in shortest possible time since Shri Krishna teaches: Submit to me and I will grant you Jnana. He also says that there is no better purifier that Jnana. He teaches Arjuna to know that Arjuna is not the doer. Finally, in the 18th Chapter, He spells out the secret.

i have just outlined a few aspects of Gita that help to get over pain and anguish. A regular reader of Gita will surely be free of pain and illusions in shortest possible time. i intuit that you might have noted the most potent points yourself that you might post gradually.

Regards

Om

vcindiana
26 January 2009, 10:24 PM
Dear Atanu: Thank you again.

It is interesting you bring the concept of sleep to explain. Let me please get practical here. What if the Devotee you describe comes to Guru and tells him that he is severely suffering from the pain due to pancreatic cancer and the cancer has eroded his spine. He knows the end is near. He is tormented with the excruciating pain and the fear of death. He blames himself that it was his “past karma” or fate. He cannot find any comfort let alone sleeping. Does the Guru has any real insight about this man plight and how does he comfort this man?

You say Pain is actually a thought of past and future. Have you ever sat next to a sick person with the worst pain and disability and can you clearly explain him that “You are not the body” proclaiming your “correct “notion at this time? Or you think it is too late for him and leave him alone?

You mention about Sleep. As I understand sleep is physiological process of rest. I love my sleep. There is no consciousness other than basic life sustaining activities. I do not think or make any decisions while I am sleeping. Basically I am a sort of “Dead” although temporarily. Forget about Desire or No desire. Practically there is no Life for me in my sleep. Reality of pain and pleasures hit me as soon as I am awake. It is difficult to understand Sleep is an example of knowing the SELF. I would like to know your own personal “Sadhak” experience if you care to share with me.

Love...........VC

atanu
26 January 2009, 10:35 PM
Dear Atanu: Thank you again.

What if the Devotee you describe comes to Guru and tells him that he is severely suffering from the pain due to pancreatic cancer and the cancer has eroded his spine.

You say Pain is actually a thought of past and future. Have you ever sat next to a sick person with the worst pain and disability and can you clearly explain him that “You are not the body” proclaiming your “correct “notion at this time? Or you think it is too late for him and leave him alone?

Yes. I have. And yes, I have faced pain myself. There are pain killers for certain pains. If you are talking of those kind of pains then I do not need to comment, you as a Doctor can take care.

There are pains that your medicines cannot touch and those pains only develop into pancreatic Cancer etc. eventually. Modern medicine is however, woefully inadequate in the understanding that spiritual/mental ailments precede the physical ones.


You mention about Sleep. As I understand sleep is physiological process of rest.

Rest for whom? And who gives the rest? Is the person being rested and the person giving rest are two different persons?

I possibly should not have volunteered to respond in this thread, since you are not pausing to think. However, all for good.

Om

atanu
29 January 2009, 06:25 AM
Namaste VC,

I have seen my father dying of pain of Cancer on my arms. I do not belittle the effect of such acute pains and also the emotional depression that the knowledge of certain death causes to the patient.

Regarding acute physical or emotional pain, I wish to relate the following happening.

A mother in extreme anguish brought her dead son's body to the Guru and demanded that the body be brought to life. She did not relent and was in no mood to move out. The Guru said: Keep the body in such and such room and let us wait and see what happens.

In the morning, the lady and her people moved out the body and cremated it.
In Gita, Shri Krishna advices Arjuna to bear adversities with forbearance since they come and go. Death is inevitable and pain is inevitable. Why should a Guru interfere with the treatment of a Doctor in such acute cases, as pancreatic cancer etc? Yet, a Guru, by his mere presence can calm ruffled nerves. Similarly, a terminal patient also will be benefited by studying a scripture such as Gita. A Guru teaches 'Sraddha and Saburi', which is also the essence of Gita.

------------------

OTOH while there is health, enquiries such as 'how a thought is able to move an arm?' 'How a subtle thought contacts a fleshy gross thing and causes movement?', are some good questions towards gaining some mastery over pain, IMO.

There is plenty of wisdom in Gita as to how the Atma is uncuttable and how the Atma is immortal. But obviously, theoretical knowldge will not serve any purpose till one is able to separate out infinite unconnected subtle spirit called "I am" from the yoke of the body.

It is irony that the inert body is not capable of feeling any pain. It is through the agencies of the Atma that pains or pleasures are known. And that Atma being subtle is not opposed in any part and thus should never have any pain.

Om Namah Shivaya

vcindiana
29 January 2009, 07:41 AM
Namaste VC,

I have seen my father dying of pain of Cancer on my arms. I do not belittle the effect of such acute pains and also the emotional depression that the knowledge of certain death causes to the patient.



Regarding acute physical or emotional pain, I wish to relate the following happening.
A mother in extreme anguish brought her dead son's body to the Guru and demanded that the body be brought to life. She did not relent and was in no mood to move out. The Guru said: Keep the body in such and such room and let us wait and see what happens.In the morning, the lady and her people moved out the body and cremated it.In Gita, Shri Krishna advices Arjuna to bear adversities with forbearance since they come and go. Death is inevitable and pain is inevitable.
Om Namah Shivaya


Dear Atanu: Thank you.

I can feel the physical and emotional pain you and your father endured at the time of his death. I lost my father as well; it was indeed hard to bear the suffering.

I agree Gita says to bear adversities with forbearance since they come and go. As ordinary human beings like me we cannot get comfort in knowing this cold abstract concept despite its TRUE facts of life and death. In your story, a mother brings her dead son to Guru/God in the hope of his coming back to life. Nothing happens!! No matter what religion or faith people belong to, there is an inner feeling that the powerful God would do some miracle if we prayed hard enough. God is not a magician or a miracle worker. But it is my understanding God does some amazing thing during the time of turbulence as you put it “a Guru (God), by his mere presence can calm ruffled nerves”. He just holds his people (us) in his arms (as you found out with your father), dries out our tears and lovingly comforts and gives strength to us! It is Amazing.

Love…………………VC

Infinite Regress
29 January 2009, 09:34 AM
There are two forms of pain, physical and psychological. No scripture can solve the problem pertaining to the former. Only medical science can. Religion is essentially for the latter. To seek spiritual solutions for physical pain doesn't make sense, IMO.

atanu
31 January 2009, 02:33 AM
There are two forms of pain, physical and psychological. No scripture can solve the problem pertaining to the former. Only medical science can. Religion is essentially for the latter. To seek spiritual solutions for physical pain doesn't make sense, IMO.

Dear Infinite,

Most monstrous pain is of death, when life breath leaves all organs. Although not apparent, there is only the spiritual solution. What appears to be material solution also has spirit as the base.

OM

atanu
31 January 2009, 03:13 AM
Dear Atanu: Thank you.

I can feel the physical and emotional pain you and your father endured at the time of his death. I lost my father as well; it was indeed hard to bear the suffering.

I agree Gita says to bear adversities with forbearance since they come and go. As ordinary human beings like me we cannot get comfort in knowing this cold abstract concept despite its TRUE facts of life and death. In your story, a mother brings her dead son to Guru/God in the hope of his coming back to life. Nothing happens!! No matter what religion or faith people belong to, there is an inner feeling that the powerful God would do some miracle if we prayed hard enough. God is not a magician or a miracle worker. But it is my understanding God does some amazing thing during the time of turbulence as you put it “a Guru (God), by his mere presence can calm ruffled nerves”. He just holds his people (us) in his arms (as you found out with your father), dries out our tears and lovingly comforts and gives strength to us! It is Amazing.

Love…………………VC

Dear VC Pranam,

Thank you for the nice heart felt note.

Let me clarify a few points, however. First, the incident that I wrote in italics is a true happening.

Second, as per my understanding, God can do magic -- He is known as magician and the destroyer of illusion also. It is God who animates bodies, which otherwise are inert. He is a magician since He is Atman -- subtler than Ether, yet He owns infinite gross bodies. He dispels the illusion of the magic also. Rudra in Veda is known as an excellent Doctor and as the one who gives knowledge, without which the ultimate pain of repeated death and birth cannot be overcome.

There is a degree of difference between western and eastern religions, the former relying on the miracles performed at physical level to rate a person's godliness.The eastern religions rely more on the knowledge aspect, whereby the truth of the fearless, deathless, and taintless spirit is known, rather than the emotional aspect of magic at physical level.

There is a couple of stories in Yoga Vasista (these were related earlier and some of us may remember them).

Sage Vasista saw a violent man with thousand arms and legs. He bore thousand clubs in his thousand hands. He was continuously moving from here to there and shouting and crying. He was roaming over thorns and shrieking with pain and then he was hitting himself with his club and crying in pain. Sometimes, he would go near a water stream or a well and remain calm for a moment or two. But alas, he would again move and enter fire. (Some may recognize this man as sahasrashira, sahasrabahu Purusha Himself).
This continued for long, till the man began to cut his own arms (by which he grasps) and legs (by which he moves). One by one he cut of all his limbs and then only he was santam -- peace. Sage Vasista told Rama: This man is the mind.

There is another story from Yoga Vasista, which a Guru related to an aggrieved man. A man who had lost his only son visited his guru and requested for some consolation. The guru however did not pay any attention for a long time. At this the aggrieved father turned his ire at the Guru calling him heartless etc. The guru then related the story.
Rama and Shyam were friends, hailing from same village, who went to study abroad. After a long time, a trader from their village visited the place where Rama and Shyam had gone for studies. The trader met Rama who told the trader of all the happenings and requested him to convey to his parents that how successful and happy he was. Rama also requested the trader to convey to Shyam's parents of Shyam's sad demise.
The trader came back and did a horrible thing. He mistook the names and conveyed to Shyam's father of his successful son and to Rama's father of Rama's death. Gloom overtook Rama's family.It is true that when in pain these stories are more painful than mitigating. But on cool contemplation the truth begins to shine. The mind which is subtle, cannot have any real contact with any flesh, yet owning up the flesh, it moans. Real alleviation of pain, as per Sanatana Dharma, is severing this false knot, permanently.

Regards and Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
31 January 2009, 08:15 AM
Practically there is no Life for me in my sleep. Reality of pain and pleasures hit me as soon as I am awake. It is difficult to understand Sleep is an example of knowing the SELF. I would like to know your own personal “Sadhak” experience if you care to share with me.

Love...........VC

Dear VC Pranam,

I am no sadhak per se. Life's pains have forced me to question. And as of now, the question and the understanding, which i had written above is again reproduced below as summary:

It is irony that the inert body is not capable of feeling any pain. It is through the agencies of the Atma that pains or pleasures are known. And that Atma being subtle is not opposed in any part and thus should never have any pain.
Regards.
OM

vcindiana
31 January 2009, 03:16 PM
Dear VC Pranam,


I am no sadhak per se. ....... had written above is again reproduced below as summary:
It is irony that the inert body is not capable of feeling any pain. It is through the agencies of the Atma that pains or pleasures are known. ..
Regards.OM

Dear Atanu:
How true it is!! Let me please explain my “practical” experience.

I was a late bloomer when I learnt swimming. Water was a scary thing to me, never ventured to jump into a pool or a lake for a long time. When I reached 50 I decided somehow I needed to understand the mystery behind this. I studied the physics of water and the psychology of fear and understood why people drown in a pool of water.

Talking about Physics, water is denser. We all have at least some air in our lungs and our body is not denser than water. Depending on individual buoyancy if one just let go he or she will always stay close to the surface of the water. Try intentionally reaching the bottom of the pool, it will push you up. Whenever I stand in the water not touching the bottom, the surface of the water will be about 3 to 4 inches from my scalp. Yes, during that I do not inhale. It takes very little effort to push myself up to catch a breath and go back into the water. As long as I frequently come up for a breath I can stay CALMLY in the water and enjoying forever no matter how deep the water is.

The key element in this exercise is to keep the body and the soul or consciousness together. Fear is THE impediment to keep these together.

People go through certain stages in fear. In the initial stages we feel tingling in our hands and feet. We experience dry mouth, and then we feel “butterflies” in our stomach and start to tremble or shake. In extreme fear we just loose consciousness. The moment we start to experience FEAR, our soul or one can call consciousness, starts to be uneasy with the surroundings. In the final stage of fear it literally leaves the body making the body inert! Guess what happens when one is in the body of water. The soulless person inhales water instead and drowns.

I know I have stretched this concept for some of you, but it has worked for me. I am not afraid of water any more. I love to jump in any lakes, pools and oceans and these are friends to me. Please let me know if any of you want to enjoy water but afraid of it.

Love.............VC

atanu
31 January 2009, 10:29 PM
Dear Atanu:
How true it is!! Let me please explain my “practical” experience.

I was a late bloomer when I learnt swimming. Water was a scary thing to me, never ventured to jump into a pool or a lake for a long time. When I reached 50 I decided somehow I needed to understand the mystery behind this. I studied the physics of water and the psychology of fear and understood why people drown in a pool of water.

Talking about Physics, water is denser. We all have at least some air in our lungs and our body is not denser than water. Depending on individual buoyancy if one just let go he or she will always stay close to the surface of the water. Try intentionally reaching the bottom of the pool, it will push you up. Whenever I stand in the water not touching the bottom, the surface of the water will be about 3 to 4 inches from my scalp. Yes, during that I do not inhale. It takes very little effort to push myself up to catch a breath and go back into the water. As long as I frequently come up for a breath I can stay CALMLY in the water and enjoying forever no matter how deep the water is.

The key element in this exercise is to keep the body and the soul or consciousness together. Fear is THE impediment to keep these together.

People go through certain stages in fear. In the initial stages we feel tingling in our hands and feet. We experience dry mouth, and then we feel “butterflies” in our stomach and start to tremble or shake. In extreme fear we just loose consciousness. The moment we start to experience FEAR, our soul or one can call consciousness, starts to be uneasy with the surroundings. In the final stage of fear it literally leaves the body making the body inert! Guess what happens when one is in the body of water. The soulless person inhales water instead and drowns.

I know I have stretched this concept for some of you, but it has worked for me. I am not afraid of water any more. I love to jump in any lakes, pools and oceans and these are friends to me. Please let me know if any of you want to enjoy water but afraid of it.

Love.............VC

Namaste VC,

Thank you for your excellent post. You bring out the importance of calm intelligent appraisal of our fears (and all our emotions, if I may add) and maintaining that cool in actual time of crisis. A recent landing of a jet plane on water, in my awareness, is another example.

I am exremely fearful of driving in curvy high places and also of water. I have a possible fearful job ahead that will test my fear of water and I will keep your advice in mind. Thanks. As if your post was just-in-time.

I have related earlier that i am somewhat instinctive regarding future happenings and it often gives me depression. For example, often my mind will begin humming 'accident-accident', and six times it has been followed by the feared thing -- thrice with my family members. You can imagine the fearsomeness of the situation.

Now, the moment such a negative thought arises, I practise to remember God. Let whatever happen happen, but keep the mind centered on God/Self.

I can relate an interesting experience. About 8 months back, i was driving from office back to home. In front of me was that famous crescent Moon, which immediately brings to me the world as the contour of the sweet Lord. My mind was very sweet, like honey and i saw a motorcyclist at the side of the road, 10 ft ahead and away from me. And then i sensed that the motor cyclist skidded and the motor cycle went away from the road and the man was under the car.

That was when I knew fear. Some one braked as hard as one could. But I was shaking and could not get out to see the scene beneath the wheel, when someone came and congratulated me for excellent driving. I said "Thank Lord".

I came out and pulled up the fellow from the ground and surprise, he was a friend, a devotee of Shri Ramana. We embraced heartily. He had a broken thumb but he drove home on his own.

Om Namah Shivaya