Marijuana or LSD awakes all siddhis?

[Mudvayne]

Patanjali wrote that herbs could awake lower or higher siddhis. But that kind of herbs would awake it?

[Eastern Mind]

I believe this is a myth purported by the philosophical system called the drug culture. If there are siddhis to be gotten, they are temporal at best, not permanent awakened states, like the Siddhars of yore. But then that's just me.

Aum Namasivaya

[atanu]

Namaste friends,

The link gives some assorted ideas and some further links on the subject.
http://www.mail-archive.com/fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com/msg01231.html

It is interesting to read of Entheogens, as generically the spiritual intoxicants are called. This includes Soma of Rig Veda. It is interesting to find both Theo (God) and Gens (Creation) in the term Entheogens. Soma is also the father of all creation --- it is thus amusing to correlate the link between God, Creation, and Intoxication. Perhaps, Shiva wants to tell that the things of the world that trouble people is all hashish, created through hashis and sustained by hashis.

Entheogens are discussed in somewhat detail in wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogens

----------------------------
Those who have read Carlos Castaneda may know the use of peyote for breaking the imaginations that have solidified into so called reality, to break set solidity of human mind (which in first place is imagination) and provide glimpses of the homogeneous reality. This must be done under a high guru, if at all. And, as EM, has pointed, is only temporary. Meditation, on the other hand, though preferable under a guru, gives control to the seeker.

To assign the meaning that analysts (western intellectuals and purAna based vaisnavaites) attribute to Soma verses of Rig Veda as tribute to some physical intoxicant is entierly misplaced. Soma is the life elixir, the auspicious energy, amrita, the immortality nectar.


As the Rig Veda verse shows below:
We have drunk Soma and become immortal; we have attained the light, the Gods discovered. Now what may foeman's malice do to harm us? What, O Immortal, mortal man's deception?It is entirely foolish to think that Soma is a mere plant or an energising brew made of physical constituents.

Om

[atanu]

Namaste friends,

It is interesting to read of Entheogens, as generically the spiritual intoxicants are called. This includes Soma of Rig Veda. It is interesting to find both Theo (God) and Gens (Creation) in the term Entheogens. Soma is also the father of all creation --- it is thus amusing to correlate the link between God, Creation, and Intoxication. Perhaps, Shiva wants to tell that the things of the world that trouble people is all hashish, created through hashis and sustained by hashis.


Om

Further pursuing the link of entheogens to bondage of habit formation, it is i think appropriate that as the hallucinogens intoxicate and bind, the greatest intoxicant, the entheogen, the God, also creates and binds -- not wilfully but due to inherent nature of avidya. It is revealing that we consider as habit forming some substances, whereas we all are enslaved to the greatest habit that binds, which is the Universe -- a creation of intoxicating Soma.

Perhaps, small doses of physical entheogens may act as antidotes. But the ultimate entheogen, called controller of mAyA only can act as the final antidote to samsara, which is the set formed habit, called bondage.

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

I thought to offer some additonal ideas and perhaps contribute with those ( EM and atanu) that have posted above.

Lets take a look at what Patañjali says in his Yogadarśanai, the 4th chapter called kaivala¹ pāda. The 1st sūtra says the following:

janma auṣadhi mantra tapaḥ-samādhijaḥ siddayaḥ

janma = birth
auṣadhi = oṣadhi which is an annual plant or herb yet also means a remedy ( we some times call it a concoction)
mantra = ' instrument of thought '; we know this a sound vibration, a formula,; some may call it a prayer, or syllable i.e. bīja mantra.
tapaḥ = tapasya = an austerity, a practice, one of inner-personal development; this word is from tápas - produced by heat ;
As we heat things to improve/change the quality of an item e.g. we temper steel, blown glass is heated to shape and form it, gold and various metals are heated to remove impurities, etc.
samādhijaḥ = samādhi + jaḥ - samādhi is that level of same-ess (sama) that is, pure consciousness, pure awareness of the totally absorbed practitioner.
jaḥ = ja - produced or caused by , born or produced in or at or upon
siddayaḥ= siddhi - perfection; success, accomplishment; here we us it as acquisition of super-normal or the supposed faculty so acquired i.e. aṇimā laghimā, etc.What this says: siddhi (accomplishment of siddhi powers) may come with birth (janma or birth ), from herbs (auṣadhi), formulas (mantra), the kindling from ones sādhana (tapasya or the purification of the individual through practice ), and/or produced (ja) from samādhi.

What of from birth (janma) ?
It could mean two things.

One's past accomplishments come with the individual via stored vāsanā-s¹ ( passed impressions) we bring from life-to-life.
Another way of viewing it ( my view only) is one born into a house of yogi's or adepts that instruct the individual in siddhi practices.What of herbs (auṣadhi) ?
I have little to offer here. I have not met any one that informed me that an herb assisted them in a siddhi practice. Yet I have read and viewed people ( not yogi-s) discussing on TV out-of-the-body experiences while doing a medical procedure. Hence the drug used by the physician stimulated this ability I would assume.

I have also heard of people using mushrooms and gaining siddhi experiences - yet this occurred only when the mushroom/drug was taken and did not continue after the drug ( in the mushroom) wore-off. Hence not too practical.

What of formulas ?
This frankly is what Patañjali offers in his Yogadarśana i.e.formula's for siddhi-s . This formula is called saṁyama. There are multiple HDF posts regarding saṁyama¹, yet let me offer a POV.
Saṁyama (संयम) defined by Monier Williams Dictionary is considered holding together , restraint , control; concentration of mind. Yet I find this a 'clinical' definition, devoid of practice or experience. The sense of control may be mis-leading to many. The word control comes with the following:

dominate, command, to hold in check and more extremely to eliminate or prevent the flourishing or spread ( like in controlling a forest fire perhaps).I not a fan of the word control as it suggests effort. With effort expended saṁyama becomes a fleeting idea that one does not capture. This saṁyama is more towards the notion of holding together, gently, then 'restraining or controlling' . It's a very delicate thing that happens when practiced.
If I had to define it i.e. the Monier Williams Dictionary offer, I would not do much better then their entry, but would add one operative word, formula. This saṁyama is the formula for (gently and with minimum effort) holding together dhāraṅā, dhyāna, and samādhi within the field of consciousness.

The formula is based upon intent. Intent is the least amount of effort expended that still has direction and bears fruit -and this is saṁyama , a function of intent. This is what is missing in the definition of this most noble word saṁyama.

What of from ones sādhana (tapasya) ?
The rigor of ones practice may also yield siddhi ability over time. That is, siddhi-s can develop quite naturally during ones sādhana as a matter of course. How one handles it is up to them. Yet if one wishes to develop these skills then purification is required .

Last, produced (ja) from samādhi -
The level of pure awareness, pure potential. When samādhi is stablized in one's daily consciousness/awareness , it is the home of all possibilities. People learn to work within this field of possibilites as more of their full-functioning is now available and hence siddhi abilities can natually occur.

This ability is called out in the Spanda kārikā-s ( 3rd chapter) called vibhūti spanda, just as Patañjali calls out siddhi-s in his 3rd chapter, called vibhūti pāda. Are there other books that call out siddhi-s from elevaated consciousness? Sure e.g. Parā-trīśikā Vivaraṇa 36th and 37th śloka-s, and others.

Some closing thoughts
Patañjali points out that siddhi-s may be impediments, yet also sees them as accomplishments and a milestone of cetana¹-development.
Then why pursue it ? Chapter 3, vibhūti pāda, 5th sūtra , Patañjali-ji informs us, By mastering that (the art of saṁyama), the light of knowledge i.e. prajñā (intuitive wisdom - cognitive abilities) dawns.


All the Powers of the Universe are already ours; It is We who have put our hands before our eyes and cry that it is Dark! - Svāmi Vivekānanda

praṇām

words & references

kaivala कैवल also written kevala केवल - is simple , pure , uncompounded , unmingled ; perfect unity;
pāda पाद - a verse or line as the fourth part of a regular stanza or śloka; the chapter of a book originally only a book or section of a book consisting of 4 parts
vāsanā वासना - the impression of anything remaining in the mind; the present consciousness of past (life) perceptions , knowledge derived from memory.
This is not to be confused with vasana वसन - cloth , clothes , dress , garment , apparel , attire ; dwelling or abiding, yet they share a common theme of 'dwelling' or 'abiding'.
More on saṁyama at these HDF posts:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2507&highlight=samyama (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2507&highlight=samyama)
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1382&highlight=samyama (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1382&highlight=samyama)
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=22005&postcount=22 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=22005&postcount=22)
cetana - consciousness, understanding, sense, or intelligence , yet too visible , conspicuous i.e. seeing ones progress.

[Mudvayne]

I heard that you can awake it -siddhis- in a few days.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté


I heard that you can awake it -siddhis- in a few days.


This completely depends on the quality of the aspirant.

praṇām

[reflections]

Namaste All,
I am really sorry if I am stating some thing wrong as I am not informed well about this topic.

However,

Isn't it true that a True Sadhak should not aim for Sidhhis, but for giver of the Siddhis i.e. Brahman/God? I have read some saying by RamKrishna Paramhamsa that Attention to Siddhis can be a hurdle in path of Sadhna. I will search the quote and post it.

And secondly, Marijuana or LSD can be very much addictive and it can do more harm than benefit. Shouldn't 'Har(i) Naam', sweet name of Lord should be enough to intoxicate us?



Jai Shri Krishna

[Mudvayne]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté




This completely depends on the quality of the aspirant.

praṇām


Force of will and concentration I guess.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté


Force of will and concentration I guess.


If 'force' is exercised within saṁyama, there will be little results.

If 'force of will' is exercised outside of saṁyama, during daily activity and the intent is to be regular in one's sādhana, then this is a different story.

In saṁyama, we do less to accomplish more, until we do nothing and accomplish everything - this is samādhi.

That is the whole notion of pratyāhāra¹ (drawing back, withdrawal); the notion of doing less and less ( within ones meditation). There is an inward march to finer levels of awareness, to turiya.


This is a discussion point that is talked about in-depth in this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3312



praṇām


words
pratyāhāra प्रत्याहार withdrawal (esp. of the senses from external objects) ; re-absorption or dissolution of the world.

[srivijaya]

Patanjali wrote that herbs could awake lower or higher siddhis. But that kind of herbs would awake it?

Hi Mudvayne,
Drugs can no doubt create sublime visions and transport those who take them to fantastic places. Coleridge's poem Kubla Khan was said to be the result of a vision he had whist taking opium. For the rest of his life he yearned to recapture that beauty but was never able to

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree :
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.
Opium, his "milk of Paradise" took him there once. A small glimpse of where the mind can journey.

Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise.

But a drug-taker is a mere passenger on this journey, thrown into random visions and not spiritually ready to appreciate their significance. No wonder then his cold feeling of longing after the event and his desire for more.

Meditation is the pathway taught by the masters, as this empowers the contemplative and puts him in the driving seat. Drugs are not a short cut to samhadi, they re-structure (without consent) the minds of those who take them and your mind is the most precious thing you have.

Guard it well and meditate would be my advice.

Namaste

[simex]

Drugs will definitely not give you magic powers, or take you straight to enlightenment. This is because drugs excite the chitta, when you want to be bringing it to a standstill.

However, to be fair, LSD was an instrumental rung on the ladder of my spiritual journey. Before I took the drug, I could only intellectually understand that the world I saw was my own subjective creation; I believed it to be purely objective, like many people. I believed that people saw things exactly the way I saw them, because I was looking directly at reality. The first time I tripped, this illusion quickly dissolved; it became glaringly obvious that what seemed so concrete and real, could be fundamentally changed by ingesting a sugar cube. But, of course, the realization came from within, and the drug was only a tool. Any state of altered consciousness can teach you viveka, even a fever.

Don't look for magic IN the world; the world IS magic.

[Mudvayne]

But when a person use marijuana or entheogens that person awake their siddhis and chakras for a while.

[simex]

But when a person use marijuana or entheogens that person awake their siddhis and chakras for a while.

Trust me dude, if marijuana gave you temporary siddhis, I would be a freakin' wizard, shooting fireballs and flying all over the place. Sadly, this is not the case. There is no magic in the world, because if there was, it wouldn't be magic, it would be nature. But the thing is, nature is magic. Brahman constantly changes, recycling itself in to new forms which give the illusion (i.e. magic) of different forms, of permanence, of reality.

occum's razor, thermodynamics, causality... all these things tell us that there should be no universe here, that energy should be at rest, and yet here it is. What could be more magical than this? You are living constantly in the midst of the greatest siddhi ever performed, and you are performing it!

[Mudvayne]

Well.

You have to know how to use marijuana to awake siddhis. Is not just about use it..

I don't know how to explain this.

[saidevo]

Namaste Simex.

"Brahman constantly changes..." in the illusion he creates, 'what is natural is also magical', "living is the greatest siddhi"--nice points.

Creation is full of oxymorons. One way to get initiated in the 'siddhis' is perhaps looking at the meeting point of the opposite poles of the oxymorons.

[saidevo]

Coleridge's poem Kubla Khan was said to be the result of a vision he had whist taking opium.


Another poem that glorifies opium is "The Lotus Eaters" by Tennyson. Some beautiful lines from this poem. Tennyson's poetry is full of onomatopoeia, a figure of speech where the sound echos the sense.

"There is sweet music here that softer falls
Than petals from blown roses on the grass,
Or night-dews on still waters between walls
Of shadowy granite, in a gleaming pass;
Music that gentlier on the spirit lies,
Than tir'd eyelids upon tir'd eyes;
Music that brings sweet sleep down from the blissful skies.
Here are cool mosses deep,
And thro' the moss the ivies creep,
And in the stream the long-leaved flowers weep,
And from the craggy ledge the poppy hangs in sleep."

[atanu]

Namaste All,
I am really sorry if I am stating some thing wrong as I am not informed well about this topic.

And secondly, Marijuana or LSD can be very much addictive and it can do more harm than benefit. Shouldn't 'Har(i) Naam', sweet name of Lord should be enough to intoxicate us?

Jai Shri Krishna



But a drug-taker is a mere passenger on this journey, thrown into random visions and not spiritually ready to appreciate their significance. No wonder then his cold feeling of longing after the event and his desire for more.

Meditation is the pathway taught by the masters, as this empowers the contemplative and puts him in the driving seat. Drugs are not a short cut to samhadi, they re-structure (without consent) the minds of those who take them and your mind is the most precious thing you have.

Guard it well and meditate would be my advice.


Namaste Reflections and Srivijya,

Both of you are correct. But there are sadhus who use entheogens. And there are some sampradayas, which I understand, use entheogens under supervision. I understand that there are great dangers, in case the wisdom slips. It is indeed walking on a razor's edge. From this perspective mantra japa or meditation are safe and prescribed for all.

During mantra japa or during meditation, some see "I am reciting some sounds with some meaning". Some others progress and see "I am submitting myself at the feet of God". Then some understand that they are gently gaining control over their mind's fickleness. In all these, one sees a fleshy body doing all sorts of things that are at times very tiring and boring.

Some, however, at the end of OM invoke their diety and see various sounds rising from dadhikarana (white) and spreading around in mind boggling sweetness of colour riot, consisting of sinduri red, blue, yellow, gray, and broken by white here and there -- all this permeated by fragrance and feel of sweetened milk.

None of the above is true. Only the Seer, who is also the Seen, is true. However, to be put on fast-track and to see the bodyless subtleness, the value of entheogens cannot be disputed, else Patanjali would not have broached upon it. Only under guidance of a satguru (a knower of Brahman) can this be of any use, however.


About siddhi also, the same rule applies. Siddhi is some magic happening automatically -- because the desire rises in Prakriti and is fulfilled by the Prakriti, Atman has no role, except to see the desire rise and see it fulfilled. This is true pure complete siddhi. In advaita Turya there is unfortunately no siddhi. Whereas, the siddhi we commonly talk about and which probably is also the subject matter here is volitional siddhi, wherein the ego has not been lost. Such siddhi, in time, will drag the siddhi holder to hell.


Om Namah Shivaya

PS: I am completely sane and clean. Lest there be any doubt?:)

[atanu]

Regarding entheogen again.

There is a bengali song, remembrance of which, in relation to entheogen, made me smile and also nurse a lump in throat. So, I give the gist below. The song addresses Goddess as daughter and goes like:

Oh, daughter where did you get all these ornaments from? Wherefrom your opulence? I heard that your husband has no home and no clothes. Your two poor sons have no salt to eat. Wherefrom all your ornaments? Oh, daughter tell me.


Om Namah Shivaya

[TatTvamAsi]

Drugs will definitely not give you magic powers, or take you straight to enlightenment. This is because drugs excite the chitta, when you want to be bringing it to a standstill.


That is exactly correct. Use of psychedelics is highly recommended against by all, especially gurus.

This is evident in other things in life; there is no free lunch or shortcut to things that are lasting and fulfilling. Hard work, perseverance, and determined self-effort are the only paths to sustained happiness.

There is a reason why drugs are illegal in all (sane) countries. People who use entheogens of any kind should be arrested and purged as they (the demand) are a curse everywhere.

And to the OP, "Mudvayne", LOL (a crappy band by the way), smoking weed is not going to do anything for you. Maybe, just maybe, Mudvayne might sound better when you're high! ROFLMAO! :D

[mithya]

I don't think LSD gives siddhis. But at the same time, it's funny that some people are dead against it. Eastern cultures don't condemn these things, it's part of western culture to do that. Even Shiva takes soma, many rishis take soma, there's nothing wrong with drugs if used for a higher purpose. Unfortunately, most 'hindus' today are against drugs under some false (Christian) pretext of moralism. Seems like modern hindus are more 'christian' in their attitude than Christians themselves!

[amra]

Plants or chemichals have a consciouness, plants that can affect human consciousness are more conscious than plants that do not. To use a plant correctly you must make a 'request' of the plant. To just use a plant for some selfish aim is all well and good but you are making the plant bear some of your karma, so to avoid the plant being angry at you, you should ask it. TO force nature to give you something is very bad, i read somewhere of a rule which has always stayed with me that is if you don't ask you get milk if you ask you get water and if you take you get blood.

[Eastern Mind]

I don't think LSD gives siddhis. But at the same time, it's funny that some people are dead against it. Eastern cultures don't condemn these things, it's part of western culture to do that. Even Shiva takes soma, many rishis take soma, there's nothing wrong with drugs if used for a higher purpose. Unfortunately, most 'hindus' today are against drugs under some false (Christian) pretext of moralism. Seems like modern hindus are more 'christian' in their attitude than Christians themselves!

Of course all Hindus are different based on their own experiences. I believe it is a slippery slope to make such broad generalisations as 'most' Hindus. Where is the data? There is a huge difference, IMHO, between 'FORBIDDEN!" and 'not recommended' . I personally know of very few Hindu teachers or Hindus for that matter who take such hard line stances. Christians, yes. Thats what makes them seem so foolish. Its like me and booze. I drink on average one beer a year. Does that mean I'm against it? No. Does it mean I've chosen not to indulge. Yes, most of the time.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'higher purpose'. I know of no drug (with the possible exception of peyote) that leads to a permanently higher state. Even peyote, in my understanding from reading Castenanda 30 some years back just does the job of 'breaking seals' and ultimately isn't necessary. For me 'higher purpose' means that which leads us further towards moksha' .

I don't think 'Siva takes soma" other than in some human created myths perhaps. Siva in the ultimate aspect is formless ... beyond form, time, and space.

I still maintain that the 'drug culture' likes to perpetuate its own myths.

Aum Namasivaya

[atanu]

I don't think 'Siva takes soma" other than in some human created myths perhaps. Siva in the ultimate aspect is formless ... beyond form, time, and space.

I still maintain that the 'drug culture' likes to perpetuate its own myths.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste All,

Shiva is Soma. Bliss is the first sheath of Atman Shiva. On a very small part of that bliss this world exists. Why should Shiva take Soma? It is for us to either get lost in 'material' in search of bliss or dive in to face bliss face to face.

Om

[simex]

That is exactly correct.


...

People who use entheogens of any kind should be arrested and purged as they (the demand) are a curse everywhere.
I like that you praised and demonized me in the same post.

[Nondogmatic Nondualist]

What is the purpose of cultivating siddhis in the first place? Most people take psychedelic drugs because they want to have a sensory experience.

Whatever can be attained (including siddhis) can be lost. Whatever can be experienced (including drug-induced experiences) will fade away. Why not inquire into the question of what is never attained nor lost, and in which all experiences arise and subside?

[devotee]

Namaste NN,



Whatever can be attained (including siddhis) can be lost. Whatever can be experienced (including drug-induced experiences) will fade away. Why not inquire into the question of what is never attained nor lost, and in which all experiences arise and subside?

That is an excellent thought ! :)

OM

[Peshalah]

I have heard that Peyotee is better than LSD since it is natural. People have said that they feel a primal connection with the earth and have a more meaningful and thoughtful trip with Peyotee than with LSD. The visuals are said to be more primal and organic looking without the metallic edge experienced with the visuals from LSD. People who advocate Peyotee often say that it should be done for spiritual purposes and not just to experience a high. Peyotee is usually done along with a spiritual ritual. They say that people who are just after a high will be made sick by the plant as if the plant knows your intentions.
Some drugs can temporarily supress the lower levels of human consciousness which allows one to get a glimpse of what it would be like at a higher level of consciousness without having actually earned it. Watching a Jet Lee film; seeing his kung fu moves and then having the feeling that you are a kung fu master is a lot different than doing what it takes to become an actual kung fu master. The higher levels of consciousness are accompanied by true love, peace and transcedental bliss. A person on drugs is capable of feeling a kind of high even if they do not have a love for God in their heart. What good is sensory exhileration without the quickening of the spirit or without strengthening your connection to Godhead?

[Adhvagat]

That is exactly correct. Use of psychedelics is highly recommended against by all, especially gurus.

This is evident in other things in life; there is no free lunch or shortcut to things that are lasting and fulfilling. Hard work, perseverance, and determined self-effort are the only paths to sustained happiness.

There is a reason why drugs are illegal in all (sane) countries. People who use entheogens of any kind should be arrested and purged as they (the demand) are a curse everywhere.

And to the OP, "Mudvayne", LOL (a crappy band by the way), smoking weed is not going to do anything for you. Maybe, just maybe, Mudvayne might sound better when you're high! ROFLMAO! :D

TTA, you made me laugh. :D