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yajvan
31 March 2009, 12:03 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Cosmos is a greek term meaning 'order, orderly arrangement, ornaments'. Its opposite is chaos. We use the term chaos to depict dis-order. Yet as I understand it, it also was to mean primal emptiness, space.

As I look at the definition of chaos, I am told it is from ghn or ghen meaning 'gape, be wide open' ( so says winkipedia). From this we get an Anglo-Saxon word gānian ('yawn'), geanian, ginian ('gape wide'). Yet for this post I am interested in 'order' and 'dis-order' and perhaps what you see.

From my POV I see order in this cosmos. I see laws of nature at work and the laws of physics that try to keep up in defining all the
phenomenon that surround us. Even random events ( as I see it) are structured by natural laws. Let me give an example that I wrote on another post:


If something goes flying out from the center of a star or a galaxy or ejected in a random manner out of a human cell , the laws of velocity, attraction, resistance , gravity all apply.
Lets not get so cosmic - how about a balloon that is let go, letting the air out to propel the balloon. To us, the path is random, yet to analyse it and chart the course of pressure, wind velocity, bla-bla-bla, the balloon took the path of least resistance to move in space... random to the observer, yet filled with order and the laws of physics.

This suggests (IMHO) even 'randomness' must operate by the laws that are found in the universe, hence chaos is in the eyes of
the beholder.
Lets say some one asks, then what would be an example of pure chaos? I'd say laws of nature that are not reliable , that is:

Today I plant a tomato seed and get a pumkin... I am okay with that as long as each time I did this I got a pumkin.
It is when you plant a tomato and one day you get a pumpkin, the next day you get a palm tree.
Today I put gas in my car and I get 50MPG, the next day I put gas in and it freezes the engine and it falls apart.
Today a female dog has puppies, tomorrow she gives birth to a kangaroo.
Today the earth completes a day in 24 hrs, tomorrow it takes 100 hrs to rotate 360°That is chaos...

I see this cosmos as the intelligence of this Universe managing on every level. I see Creation ( Brahma at work) , the maintenance of this universe by Viṣṇu and I see its destruction (Rudra) in beautiful order.
Now are these deities or are they names we give to macro-qualities of nature? I will leave that to you.


Just wondered what you see? Order? Chaos? or a combination there of?


http://imgsrc.hubblesite.org/hu/db/images/hs-2007-41-a-web.jpg



praṇām

Pretnath
01 April 2009, 09:38 AM
Namaste Yajvan G,

err.. sorry for what that post is?

simex
01 April 2009, 09:51 AM
Chaos and order are subjective. Something can appear chaotic or ordered depending on the position and scale of the observer, and the observer's personal opinion of the threshold between the two categories. Without an observer who holds both concepts in his mind, neither phenomenon exists.

It is both and neither simultaneously. The same holds true for all dichotomies.

yajvan
01 April 2009, 05:38 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

NamastÚ simex


Chaos and order are subjective. Something can appear chaotic or ordered depending on the position and scale of the observer, and the observer's personal opinion of the threshold between the two categories. Without an observer who holds both concepts in his mind, neither phenomenon exists.

It is both and neither simultaneously. The same holds true for all dichotomies.

Let me ask then... we ( in our present form or identification) where not here for all time. As this universe unfolded over time - did it not exist?
If yes - then was the unfoldment or expansion done in an orderly manner? If no, then what occured?

Before we could view the heavens and deep space - stars exploded without our knowing. Did they do this by various laws of nature? Did this only occur until we viewed it?


If an event takes place without your knowing, does it not follow some law inherent in nature? Lets say, as we speak an elevator is going up or down in New York. I have no idea who is in it, yet I can be certain ( 99.99999%) one is traveling up-or-down as I type this. Does it not follow some law of nature e.g. friction on the cables, graviity pulling on it, etc etc. and not dependent on my viewing it to occur?

praṇām

simex
02 April 2009, 09:02 AM
I don't know if things can happen in the absence of awareness.

Now, as for chaos, order, and natural laws...

Excuse me for answering your question with another question: how do you know that natural laws are constant when even the entire history of human discovery is but a tiny dot on the cosmic timeline? As far as we can tell, everything changes constantly, yet certain things appear to be constant because the rate of change between the subject and the object is so disparaging, or even the scale that the movement occurs in.

Consider a large boulder. To the observer, devoid of scientific knowledge, the boulder appears permanent and immovable. however, if the observer were to look at the boulder under the most sensitive viewing device, he would see that it is teeming with movement, as electrons circle their nuclei. similarly, if the observer were to watch the boulder at a much faster time scale, it would look like clump of salt being melted away by the rain, it would not appear static at all.

I suspect that all permanence is maya. Perhaps there is even a movement between existence and non-existence?

saidevo
02 April 2009, 11:45 AM
Namaste Yajvan.

I am rather surprised that you have referred to the TrimUrtis but to Brahman in a discussion on cosmos and chaos. We know that Brahman as the Cosmic Consciousness is the substratum of both cosmos and chaos.

Putting it into thoughts and expressions in Language and speech always 'reduces' and customises the Truth to different kinds of awareness levels. No wonder then that in manifest creation of duality, cosmos and chaos are paired as opposites, though in reality they merge into the great cosmic dance of Shiva.

It would be interesting to have a look at the Sanskrit connotations of 'cosmos' and 'chaos':

For the word 'cosmos', we have:
• 'jagat': all the manifest words--gross and subtle--with its beings;
• 'vishvaM': universe;

For the word 'chaos', we have:
• 'saMkaraH' (!): intermixture, confusion, 'rendered unclean by touch';
• 'saMkula': violence, confusion;
• 'saMkIrNatA': mingled, confused, disordered;
• 'vyastatA': multiplied, scattered, confused.

Thus we find that cosmos is always equated with material manifestation and chaos as the force or energy that creates the apparent order or disorder or both in the material manifestation. As Simex has explained it very well, both the cosmos and the chaos are 'mAyA', subjective, apparent and conditional realities projected on an Absolute Reality.

In the style of Sarabhanga, we might say:
Brahman = cosmos + chaos
Brahman = matter + energy
Brahman = Shiva + Shakti
Brahman = AUM = AtmA + anAtmA + acceptance and negation (as their relationship)

The 'scale' that Simex speaks of are the scales of 'space, time and motion'. Each of these three concepts have their triads. Bhagavan Das lists out these triads and their relationships in his book The Science of Peace, in chapter 12, which we have in this thread:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2860 (post #3 on)

He lists out the following triads:

• space: side-beside-between, inner-outer-through, point-radii-sphere;
• time: beginning-end-middle, past-future-present, moment-period-cycle;
• motion: mergence-emergence-recurrence, approach-recess-revolution, linear-rotatory-spiral;

And he says that the whole drama of interplay of matter and energy creating the cosmos and chaos is due to the acceptance-negation relationship the Self has with the Not-Self.

amra
02 April 2009, 01:48 PM
"Brahman as the Cosmic Consciousness is the substratum of both cosmos and chaos"

This is indeed true but of this as the Veda say nothing can be said or not said. Every discussion can be cut off by using this statement. Instead of using this as an excuse or rather defence mechanism in the face of awkward questions let us have the graciousness to address some of the points that have been raised. The issue is of correct orientation, what Yajvan has brought up has been called the scale of Being. Two opposite points, above=order, below=chaos and the One encompassing all. In relation to this the laws of physics have been introduced. Order cannot be 'seen' through the lens of physical laws. These laws have themselves descended from this order. But they are Bastard laws as Physics does not recognise its origin. This origin is a level in the universe of an order higher than on the Earth. A level more conscious. Consciousness is order all laws descend from this but when they lose connection with consciouness they become tools of chaos. There is no ordering principle, things begin to deterioate entropy is increased until we come to jada pure inert material. This is chaos. Pure non being 'a dog giving birth to a kangaroo'

the Tantras say 'what is not here is nowhere' the equivalent of the saying of Hermes Trismesgistus 'As above so below' all this must be understood as being in the human body BUT not only just in the human body as simex has made the mistake of presuming. What is reflected in the human body is what is in the universe, but on a different scale.

The order and chaos of the universe can only be understood in our bodies. To have a law and believe this law is operating elsewhere without your awareness is either a form of dogma or faith in this law or this law has been confirmed in your own consciousness and experienced. I believe only the latter has any validity and the former must only help or guide to the latter.

simex
02 April 2009, 03:51 PM
the Tantras say 'what is not here is nowhere' the equivalent of the saying of Hermes Trismesgistus 'As above so below' all this must be understood as being in the human body BUT not only just in the human body as simex has made the mistake of presuming. What is reflected in the human body is what is in the universe, but on a different scale.


No, I agree with you.

Things that occur in the human body also occur in the universe because the body is not separate from the universe. This is something I've only recently come to realize in the last year. I used to view all subjective phenomena as "not real" but now I see that even if we imagine something, it is real, because our imagining is a real thing that happens in the universe.

I think you're taking it a step further than my view: you're also saying that the human mind is a reflection of the universe? That makes sense to me; there's no input, no shaping device that is not the universe. So, in the same way that songs written on the guitar might share certain characteristics by virtue of the fact that the notes are arranged in a certain way, our minds, a product of the universe, necessarily bear its hallmark?

I would love it if you could elaborate as to why you think this.

saidevo
02 April 2009, 09:33 PM
Namaste Amra.



"Brahman as the Cosmic Consciousness is the substratum of both cosmos and chaos"

This is indeed true but of this as the Veda say nothing can be said or not said. Every discussion can be cut off by using this statement. Instead of using this as an excuse or rather defence mechanism in the face of awkward questions let us have the graciousness to address some of the points that have been raised.


Yajvan brought in the gods BrahmA, VishNu and Rudra and suggested that they might be "names we give to macro-qualities of nature". This is why I brought in Brahman who is behind nature as the immanent consciousness, driving and keeping it order. It does not mean that once we bring in Brahman, we shut out all superficial discussions. We can think of the white screen and talk of the movie as well and finally try to show that the order and chaos of the movie is nothing more than shades of light and sound projected on the substratum of the white screen.



This origin is a level in the universe of an order higher than on the Earth. A level more conscious. Consciousness is order all laws descend from this but when they lose connection with consciouness they become tools of chaos. There is no ordering principle, things begin to deterioate entropy is increased until we come to jada pure inert material. This is chaos. Pure non being 'a dog giving birth to a kangaroo'


This is a good point I would heartily agree to, but there is one hitch. You say that order is where the connection with the consciousness is in tact and the loss of this connection brings in chaos. What makes certain things and beings to lose the connection and certain others to keep it? What can be said as answer to this question within the confines of physical science?

For example, an insane man is chaotic in thoughts, emotions and action. Still, his manifest body must obey all the physical and physiological laws, though his mind does not. In other words, the order in his physical body is due to its keeping connection with the consciousness and the chaos in mind is due to its losing this connection. But then there is only one consciousness as the substratum of both his body and mind! What exactly is the reason that his grossly physical nature is in perfect order (always in touch with the consciousness) while his subtly physical mind is in chaos (losing its connection with consciousness)?

If there is no (scientifically apparent) reason for the above mentioned order and chaos, then the offspring of an insane person must also be mad, but it never (if at all) happens in life. Suppose science is able to clone an insane man; will he be insane too?

As in the human body, so in the universe--the point you have brought in is an eminent truth and this brings in the 'science' of astrology, and I hope Yajvan would be glad to elaborate on this connection, for I know much less of it.

Thus, IMO, all theories and notions of physical sciences have their answers only in the metaphysical science behind it. The very notion of consciousness you have brought in, the concept of One Being, (both are synonyms for Brahman) though accepted by modern physics, cannot be explained within its confines. Metaphysics and Philosophy are not just dogma or faith; they are as empiral and disciplined as science. The ultimate perception of the unity in chaos and order, as Atanu would point out, is only in Self-Realization, which is subjective, and Simex would be correct there!

yajvan
04 April 2009, 08:53 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté


amra-ji writes the following,



Consciousness is order all laws descend from this but when they lose connection with consciouness they become tools of chaos

brilliant.

saidevo writes,


The ultimate perception of the unity in chaos and order,

Well said;
This in a nutshell is the definition of uni+verse - Universe , a unity in the mist of diversity.


This 'order' is restored when one brings this level of consciousness (unity of Being) to ones awareness.


simex writes,


I don't know if things can happen in the absence of awareness.


This is in lieu of my question on things happening without a 'human's' obeservation or awareness of an action.

As I see it and have been taught and experience it, awareness ( applied consciousness) is not dependent on human intervention. We share consciousness, we apply it as awareness, yet it does not need us to exist. Consciousness is not the sole domain of humans. There is no thing that it is not.


praṇām

amra
04 April 2009, 03:04 PM
Namaste all
Saidevo ji I would say that the physical body is in itself disordered. The physical body has a limited connection with order. The visheshta of the body is that it is a vehicle of consciousness. The subtle bodies which can be formed in the gross body are more ordered and more conscious than the gross. The physical body is only apparently or seemingly ordered. The example you give of the chaotic insane mind of a man and his ordered body, i would be inclined to reinterpret thusly: An emodied consciousness that identifies with the gross body becomes insane and disordered because this is the property of physical matter. Physical matter is insane.

Physical laws apply to things because we believe them to, our faith creates the laws. The things in themselves are chaotic, in cosmic sense. We must retain a sense of perspective, the physical world is a solidification of the ideas of it. These ideas descend from the pole of greatest order-pure consciousness. The world is created top down not bottom up - the physical body cannot be connected with the world of ideas or the subtle realms because it is created through these subtle realms themselves. Only our consciousness can perceive these ideas, if we become godly.

I would say that we must preserve this two-poled nature of the cosmos to understand our place and our being in the cosmos. It is fair to say all is consciousness but if we overly rely on this statement we tend to obliterate the spiritual and subtle realms into some amorphous whole, and in my small opinion this can be detrimental to the growth of us.

As our minds grow sattvic we begin to 'see' more and tamas has the opposite effect that constricts our 'vision' This reflects the universe which is the interplay of these two basic tendencies, to reveal and conceal. The mind is an instrument that transforms 'influences' which reach us from parts of the universe. To receive divine influence we must make our container fit to recieve such influences or shakti's and have the power to digest them. The mind contains the whole universe only in possibility, it is possible to see the whole universe in yourself. But as in our case the mind contains only a small part of the universe.

yajvan
04 April 2009, 06:00 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

NamastÚ


amra-ji writes,


It is fair to say all is consciousness but if we overly rely on this statement we tend to obliterate the spiritual and subtle realms into some amorphous whole, and in my small opinion this can be detrimental to the growth of us.


Yes, I see your point here. Yet, 'saying ' vs. 'experiencing' it is a whole new conversation.

The wise say it, because that is their actual experience. Many here say it because the śastra's advise us of this wisdom. Note I am not fining fault (at all) with this. Yet it seems that one also must be on the path to sattā for the words one uses to blossom.

The world is as you are my teacher would say. So the more we infuse our thoughts and discussion with Being, the more we groom ourselves for an awakening that is a joy vs. a surprise.

praṇām

yajvan
05 April 2009, 05:48 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

NamastÚ


amra-ji writes,


I would say that the physical body is in itself disordered. The physical body has a limited connection with order. The visheshta of the body is that it is a vehicle of consciousness. The subtle bodies which can be formed in the gross body are more ordered and more conscious than the gross. The physical body is only apparently or seemingly ordered. The example you give of the chaotic insane mind of a man and his ordered body, i would be inclined to reinterpret thusly: An emodied consciousness that identifies with the gross body becomes insane and disordered because this is the property of physical matter. Physical matter is insane.
I have listened to some that say we take in order by the food we eat. That is, we 'refresh' our order by food-stuffs. Hence the importance of what we eat ( both physically and mentally). This makes sense to me conceptually.

Regarding disorder.
I am of the opinion that disorder does not = chaos. Let say we take a car and place it in a field and we do not add to its order that is, keep it clean, fix parts that begin to rust, or evaporate due to the sun's UV rays that break down all the bonds within the plastic parts, etc.
Over time the car goes to dust. Some would look at it as decay and that makes sense. Some could stretch the idea and say 'dis-order' is occurring , which too is still okay with me. But it would be difficult to suggest that chaos is at work de-composing the car. How so?
The de-composition is occurring via specific laws of nature and are repeatable. Hence it is not a chaotic occurrence.

Now take our bodies - over time we too decay. We do the best we can to keep our order ( eat, rest, exercise), but over time we decay. More dis-order is occurring? Perhaps, but done in an orderly fashion.

I have yet to find a good example of pure chaos that is not just a concept but a phenomenon that one can measure, or observe that is beyond the hypothetical. Maybe its out there waitng for someone's discovery.
But how would you reproduce the event if its pure chaos? it will act differently the next time - perhaps that is the test.

praṇām

saidevo
05 April 2009, 11:47 PM
Namaste everyone.

Some nice insights have emerged in this thread from Amraji, Yajvan and Simex. Let us discuss them in summary.

01. Consciousness is order. All laws descend from it. (Amra, post #7)

02. Pure chaos that is a phenomenon is yet to be discovered in the cosmos (Yajvan, post #13).

03. The degree of order or chaos of manifest creation in all its embodied forms of consciousness is decided by the extent of their connection with the underlying consciousness (which is Brahman). (Amra, post #7)

04. Orderliness proceeds top down, so physical matter, which has the least realized connection with consciousness is the most chaotic, with varying degrees of orderliness in the different grades of subtle matter manifest over the base of consciousness. (Amra, post #11)

05. The order and chaos of the universe can only be understood in our bodies (Amra, post #7). The human mind is a reflection of the universe? (Simex, post #8)

06. The perception that the magnitude and constancy of the natural laws is uniform throughout the cosmos is only subject and might change with a change in scale such as the time. (Simex, post #5)

07. We must preserve this two-poled nature of the cosmos to understand our place and our being in the cosmos. (Amra, post #11)

My thoughts on the above points:

01. I think everyone may agree that Consciousness (aka Brahman) is Order in its purest nature. We might even say that order is found only in consciousness; any semblances of it in physical or subtle matter are only distorted reflections of the pure order found only in consciousness.

02. Most of us might agree with the view that pure chaos in cosmos is yet to be discovered, but what about the human mind? Isn't it an example of pure chaos? Does the mind faithfully reflect the order of the consciousness that drives it? If it doesn't what is its source of disorder?

IMO, yes, human mind is the nearest to the pure form of chaos. This is because it does not or cannot reflect the pure order of the underlying consciousness (Atman), since the mind does not obey the laws emanating from their source that are perceived through Buddhi. The source of disorder of the mind are the vAsanas (karmic impressions of past lives) stored in the chitta (the hard disk of the mind), which also create the ahamkAra (ego), which in turn thinks that it is a deputy of the Atman.

Perhaps the clouds (which are poetically described as capricious) are an example of the chaos in visible, physical form. This may be due to the unbalanced activity of several forces/energies on them such as that of the wind, the earth (gravitational pull of water molecules), electricity, etc.

03. Can we say that order in the consciousness is 'sattva', chaos in different degrees of disorder in manifest creation is 'tamas' and the laws that tend to restore the order are 'rajas'?

04. Our Puranas say that all past, present and future forms of manifest creation are embedded as archetypes in the Cosmic Mind of Brahman. Theosophy also corroborates this truth with the statement that everything that is happening in physical form has already happened in their respective forms in other subtler planes (astral, mental, causal etc).

05. Since the universe might be viewed as Brahman's 'physical body', our own bodies are but part of Brahman. In the same way our Buddhi, Manas, five sheaths, three bodies, four states of existence are all part of their manifestations in progressively larger scales. This is why Hindus worship Sun as a god who is a manifest form of Brahman, the solar system being his physical body.

06. I think this is true because are the laws of nature either not the same or perceived in the same way by different levels of intelligent beings such as humans, devas, asuras, gandharvas, etc.? The element of subjectivity helps the perception of order and maintenance of peace.

07. One way to preserve the 'two-poled nature of the cosmos' is to maintain our ecosystem, whereas today's world is proceeding swiftly towards an ecocide.

A nice discussion overall, giving new insights and helping a learner grow in knowledge.

yajvan
06 April 2009, 12:59 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté saidevo,

A nice summary of the conversation, thank you.
you write,


IMO, yes, human mind is the nearest to the pure form of chaos. This is because it does not or cannot reflect the pure order of the underlying consciousness (Atman), since the mind does not obey the laws emanating from their source that are perceived through Buddhi. The source of disorder of the mind are the vAsanas (karmic impressions of past lives) stored in the chitta (the hard disk of the mind), which also create the ahamkAra (ego), which in turn thinks that it is a deputy of the Atman.

I can see why the mind may be viewed as such. When I think of the mind, we do have many random thoughts. Yet when the mind is focused, it no longer is generally random but is applied to a purpose and marches accordingly. The chaos ( if any ) has been removed.

Now if this only happened one time and never again, perhaps it does imbibe the characteristics of a chaotic system. Yet this is not the case. One second I could be day-dreaming then in the next instant my mind is called to attention by an event and one becomes focused. There is no doubt that the mind can ( and will) float back to random thoughts once more; yet 'order' was brought to it even for a short time. So, 'pure chaos' IMHO was not achieved as this chaos would not even allow a condition to occur in a repeatable fashion.

Next idea for consideration - the mind like a pot of boiling water. Bubbles ( thoughts ) come up all the time, here, there, they pop and boil. When you look at the pot, you say what is all this activity , how come all this boiling and randomness of these bubbles and waves of water, very chaotic.
Then you look and see the source of the bubbles - the fire (energy) being applied to the pot to heat up the water and we now understand the 'system'. I remove the heat, I remove the boiling.

So what is the 'system' for the mind? We view it and say , oh it's random thoughts. But when we look at the 'system' what is happening is very simple. The mind goes from thought-to-thought looking, poking, sniffing, probing, uncovering, but for what? For more happiness, satisfaction. That is the fuel.

The search for more expansion of happiness and it just does not find it. Sometimes it lands on some and is satisfied for a time e.g. a home, family, car, boat, music, friends, children, but then is concedes that this does not fully crunch its thirst. Well what does bring the halt to all this searching?

When the mind turns within and experienes the fullness (sākalya) of Being ( sattā) - this brings it satisfaction, it stops looking; it stops hopping from flower-to-flower like a bee looking for more and more pollen - it comes to rest in the SELF, Brahman.

This is the wisdom of the Chāndogya Upaniṣad, where Sanatkumāra is instructing Nārada and says, nālpe sukham asti or finite (alpa) things do not (na) contain happiness (suka).

When the mind jumps from thought to thought it lives within the finite and will come up empty-handed for its complete satisfaction.

Hence my view of chaos & mind, but it may not fit any official definition thereof.

praṇām

amra
07 April 2009, 04:28 AM
Yes, thanks for the summary a useful clarification.
The seemingly chaotic state of mind alluded to above - 'The mind goes from thought-to-thought looking, poking, sniffing, probing, uncovering, but for what? For more happiness, satisfaction.' - is a very important attribute of the cosmos. This searching or movement into non-being, is the feminine aspect of the divine, that creates the multitudes of worlds. In us this chaotic state of mind moves us to action, to make things, to move towards non-being. Things can be experienced only because their intrinsic reality or beingness has been limited. I think I have been using the wrong word - chaos - or it has been wrongle applied. This limiting aspect or tamasic aspect is necessessary for us to experience reality, but chaos comes about due to unbalance, an excessive of growth of one side of our being at the cost of the other. Instead of this chaotic mind being focused to be chaotic in an orderly manner it is without direction or rather lopsided - towards the process of limiting reality or tamas without the complimentary sattva to balance tamas. For example to build a bridge a man has to direct his thoughts to plans and concepts of engineering to build the bridge, this is a limiting process whereby certain concepts are isolated from the background of consciousness to form a definite aim. When there are too many concepts and thoughts flying about due to unbalance things become created which do not need to be - the excessive technology of today.

yajvan
07 April 2009, 11:45 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté saidevo,

amra writes,



07. We must preserve this two-poled nature of the cosmos to understand our place and our being in the cosmos. (Amra, post #11)

This comes together when saṃvid संविद् - to know together , know thoroughly , know , recognize is established.

What then is to know thoroughly? That silence of Being, and all the diversity of nature resides in us in balance (sama) simultaneously .

So what is missing in us today? The establishment of SELF (ātma) as a real experience in our daily lives. Established in IT, we then have the balance of silence of Being at all times ( 7x24x365) and the diversity of creation. The two poles residing together.


praṇām

saidevo
10 April 2009, 11:13 PM
Namaste Yajvan.

You said that 'pure chaos' is yet to be seen or discovered. What about 'pure order'? Do we find the 'pure order' with an eternal, identical rhythm of change, which is reflected through the states of existence of a thing or being in the universe?

For example, the order of macro entities in time and space is perhaps nearer to perfection but with the micro entities there might be order in the dimension of space but I think the existence of the entity is unpredictable in terms of the dimension of time. The order of the revolution of a planet in the solar system is predictable but the order of the revolution of an electron in the atom is unpredictable.

Therefore I think we must settle for the dominant propensity of the different forms of gross and subtle matter to decide whether chaos or order is prodominant in that form of matter.



Yet when the mind is focused, it no longer is generally random but is applied to a purpose and marches accordingly. The chaos ( if any ) has been removed.


Human mind when focussed is in order for sure, but this order is highly temporary in the normal existence of waking and dreaming sleep. The predominant characteristics of chaos of the mind reasserts when it grows tired of the order imposed by the necessity to focus. So I would rather say that the mind is chaotic in nature, with the possible exception of the 'shuddha manas' of the 'jnAnis'.

In SaMkhya philosophy, 'prakriti' before creation is in a state of perfect order with its three 'guNas' balancing out each other. The balancing out of the 'guNas' is not a question of their being in equal proportions, but a question of their blending to form 'nirguNa', like the seven colors of light merging to form a ray of white light.

When 'puruSha' interacts with 'prakriti', the balance is disturbed, resulting in chaos. Perhaps now 'prakriti' becomes the "formless matter and infinite space, supposed to have existed before the ordered universe", which is in disorder--a favourite definition of every dictionary about chaos. After this initial chaos, creation with its order of several forms of matter and being takes place by the interaction of 'puruShas' (In SaMkhya, 'puruShas' are infinite while 'prakriti' is only one).

So we can say that 'perfect order' is achieved by the balancing out of the three 'guNas' in an entity. This is rarely the case with mind of ordinary people; so IMO the basic nature of mind is chaos, though not a pure one.

Where do we find a 'pure order' in terms of the 'guNas' in the universe? The apparent rhythmic order of things and systems is due to the imposition of order by the underlying Cosmic Consciousness, which continually replenishes forms with matter and energy, like the electron guns refresh a computer screen to sustain the forms it displays.

In Creation, the 'Chid-Sat-Ananda' nature of NirguNa Brahman through projection of its 'Jnaana-Kriyaa-Icchaa shaktis' imposes the 'rajas-sattva-tamas guNas' on the 'prakriti' and emanates forms and beings from itself with the dominant characteristics left over in the previous cycle of creation. For details of this perception, check The Science of Peace by Bhagavan Das, chapters 8 to 10, posted in HDF here:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2665
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2676
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2684

I think the order of the cosmos is only 'mAyA'--temporary, conditional and apparent only to the senses. True and perfect order is found only in the underlying Cosmic Consciousness of the Self which is surmised in the state of deep sleep and realized in the state of 'turiya'.

yajvan
12 April 2009, 07:50 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté saidevo,


You said that 'pure chaos' is yet to be seen or discovered. What about 'pure order'? Do we find the 'pure order' with an eternal, identical rhythm of change, which is reflected through the states of existence of a thing or being in the universe?

True and perfect order is found only in the underlying Cosmic Consciousness of the Self which is surmised in the state of deep sleep and realized in the state of 'turiya'.

A well thought out post... thank you. I must agree the first place my mind went when you mentioned 'pure order' was turiya.


Now there could be another, a counter part in the physical universe, that of absolute zero ( or 0º Kelvin). It is said there is zero entropy at that level. Absolute zero physically possesses a quantum mechanical zero-point energy and thus no disturbances, no chance for dis-order or chaos, so say the scientists. They also say there is perfect 'fluid flow', without resistance.

Now before I go further , I am not a physicist, and speak with no authority on this matter. My opinions have been formed by others regarding this matter i.e. physists I listened to. They talked of superconductivity and superfluidity and the adjunct to pure awareness.
Perhaps others can add their knowledge on this matter.

I also liked the notion of the 3 gunas in perfect balance - no place for chaos there, the total universe is still virtual.

praṇām

saidevo
12 April 2009, 11:16 PM
Namaste Yajvan.

The physics I studied at college decades ago is far rusted now and I have no intention of updating it; so I can only use rational logic and common sense to think over the discoveries of physical science.

Wikipedia tells us that the 'Boomerang Nebula', better known as the 'Bow Tie Nebula', has the lowest temperature of 1 deg K (-272 deg C) and that the 'background glow from the Big Bang' is 3 deg K (-270 deg C). These are perhaps the physical manifestations that are the closest to the nature of the Absolute Truth (Brahman).

I think there is one catch in the discovery of the 'Boomerang Nebula'. It is said that the nebula is evolving into a star or stellar system with the outflow of gas from star in the nebula's core, and that the gas is moving outwards at a speed of 164 km/s and expanding rapidly as it moves into space.

Now, if the core of the nebula has a temperature of 1 deg K, the surrounding space must be closer to this temperature. If so, should not the outflowing gas move at far higher speeds though not at the speed of light because of the conditions of near superconductivity, whereas the gas is said to move out at only 164 km/s? Aren't these two observations (temperature and movement) contradictory? Or perhaps my assumption that at Absolute Zero with its superconductivity and superfluidity, movement/communication would approach the speed of light because of almost zero resistance is wrong?

Theosophists in their clairvoyant investigations of the astral and mental worlds of subtler matter have found out that

• the subtle matter in these worlds is self-shining. This means that when our consciousness is focussed on these worlds, we can see the matter that constitutes the atomosphere of these worlds.

• there are no thermic conditions of heat and cold or other energic phenomena, though there is perception, communication and movement.

• communication and movement are at the speed of light in the astral world. This means that our thought-forms and emotions reach their target destinations instantaneously. Communication is by means of thoughts and emotions manifest in astral matter.

• communication and movement are at the speed of mind in the lower planes of the mental world, so we do these things just by thinking them out. Communication is by means of thoughts only (no emotions).

• communication in the higher planes of the mental world, and in the causal and higher worlds is by means of what is perceived in clairvoyance as streaks of light energy in colors that are far subtler than in the spectrum of the physical ray of light.

The world of Absolute Zero with its physical energic and material phenomena is thus perhaps the first-level physical manifesation of Brahman. Perhaps it is at a level next to the state of deep sleep?

yajvan
13 April 2009, 10:49 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

NamastÚ saidevo,


Namaste Yajvan.

Wikipedia tells us that the 'Boomerang Nebula', better known as the 'Bow Tie Nebula', has the lowest temperature of 1 deg K (-272 deg C) and that the 'background glow from the Big Bang' is 3 deg K (-270 deg C). These are perhaps the physical manifestations that are the closest to the nature of the Absolute Truth (Brahman).

Now, if the core of the nebula has a temperature of 1 deg K, the surrounding space must be closer to this temperature. If so, should not the outflowing gas move at far higher speeds though not at the speed of light because of the conditions of near superconductivity, whereas the gas is said to move out at only 164 km/s? Aren't these two observations (temperature and movement) contradictory? Or perhaps my assumption that at Absolute Zero with its superconductivity and superfluidity, movement/communication would approach the speed of light because of almost zero resistance is wrong?

Yes, the physics I too took in college is now antiquated ( less the fundamental laws of Newton and the like). I have no firm answers to what we are pondering here, but had a thought or two to share with you.

As this gas expands through ~1║ K , my first thought is was there enough energy ( initially) to get it to move faster then 164km/sec. ?
It is travelling at the speed of what it was energetically stimulated by.

What of no resistance, why not maximum speed? Here's one POV we can consider:
Take a ball and place it in an Absolute Zero environment ( say a billion km of 0║ space). Does it move? If it is at rest, it remains at rest - the Absolute Zero environment does not influence the ball's state of rest.
Now take the same ball, same conditions and give it a push. It will move at the speed of the initial push ( say 5k/sec) - yet it will not stop - because there is zero resistance to it within the Absolute Zero environment. There is no outside force adding push to it to go faster, and hence no acceleration and its speed remains constant with no degradation.

Once the ball gets to the end of Absolute Zero environment then it will slow down and finally stop as no one is adding energy to it to keep its velocity constant.

Regarding the Galaxy Gas
Yet the other thought I had - the full 'fluid flow' with no resistance may be only occur at 0║ Kelvin. Being 1║ K may not make the laws come into play. Its only at that point of Absolute Zero that the laws then take on these other characteristics.

And what of the opposite forces acting on it slowing it down? the pull of gravity from other sources? I do not know if this is accurate or possible.

...just a few ideas, perhaps some are accurate, some not.



praṇām

saidevo
14 April 2009, 01:32 AM
Namaste Yajvan.

I can understand the points in your reply, but certain doubts linger:

Wiki says that at Absolute Zero:

• the entropy is zero and all molecular motion (that involve energy) ceases. What about the motions/vibrations inside the atoms that constitute the molecules? If there is superconductivity and superfluidity, then what could happen to the electrons in the atoms? Would they stay in their orbits or be conducted along the huge spaces between the atoms?

Perhaps this is where the Consciousness comes into play, preserving the subatomic motion and vibration but freezing molecular motion.

• You are right that a ball given a push moves along at a constant speed within the AZ environment, but still any movement should cause loss of energy, and how would this energy going out of the ball due to its movement be dissipated in AZ?

• The resistance of opposing forces would surely come into play beyond the AZ environment, so the ball would slow down and finally come to a stop. This makes it possible for the outflowing gases of the Boomerang Nebula to move at 164 km/s, alright. But then according to the popular theory, the universe is ever expanding; I wonder how would this affect the near AZ environments in the universe.

• What about the transmission of light and sound energy in AZ environment, for the Hindu scriptures say that the OmkAra is always heard throughout the Universe at all times and conditions.

For some people, it may not be right to mix physics and metaphysics, but I would rather have a holistic view of the big picture.

---

devotee
14 April 2009, 04:06 AM
Namaste Saidevoji & Yajvan ji,

Let me try to answer your questions :

At Absloute temperature, the entropy is zero and all molecular motion (that involve energy) ceases. What about the motions/vibrations inside the atoms that constitute the molecules? If there is superconductivity and superfluidity, then what could happen to the electrons in the atoms? Would they stay in their orbits or be conducted along the huge spaces between the atoms?

====> The absolute temperature has nothing to do with the motion of the body. The state of the motion of the body would remain unchanged even on encountering the Absolute Temperature. This is, because the temperature is nothing but a measure of intensity of vibration of molecules which comes to standstill at absolute zero but the motion of an object is not affected by its molecular movement as long as the body acts as one object & molecules don't disperse.

There is no effect on movement of electrons either at absolute temperature, otherwise all the electrons would collapse into the nucleus & matter would get destroyed. Yes, at this temperature the electrical resistance of the matter would drop to zero i.e. there will be no loss of energy in transmission of electrons (i.e. flow of electricity) from one point to the other.



• You are right that a ball given a push moves along at a constant speed within the AZ environment, but still any movement should cause loss of energy, and how would this energy going out of the ball due to its movement be dissipated in AZ?

In my opinion, if the body is moving in a straight line, the ball would keep its velocity intact.


The resistance of opposing forces would surely come into play beyond the AZ environment, so the ball would slow down and finally come to a stop. This makes it possible for the outflowing gases of the Boomerang Nebula to move at 164 km/s, alright. But then according to the popular theory, the universe is ever expanding; I wonder how would this affect the near AZ environments in the universe.

Even in AZ environment, there may be various forces acting on the body, say, the frictional forces, if the medium of movement is not pure space. The expansion of universe should also not affect the velocity of the body due to relativity effect (i.e. we are measuring all velocities & accelerations within the expanding universe).


What about the transmission of light and sound energy in AZ environment, for the Hindu scriptures say that the OmkAra is always heard throughout the Universe at all times and conditions.

Both Light & sound are forms of energy. However, light can travel even without medium but the sound must travel within a medium which is closely related with vibrations of molecules. So, there won't be any effect on speed of light. However, temperature does affect the motion of the molecules & so the velocity of sound would certainly get affected, but if sound energy is given into the medium, the AZ temperature can't be maintained in the first place.

Please consider the above simply a humble try to answer your questions. It should not give an impression of my being an expert of Physics.

Regards,

OM

devotee
15 April 2009, 03:48 AM
Namaste Saidevoji,

I was again thinking on this Absolute Zero & how things might behave in AZ environment. Scientifically,Absolute Zero cannot be reached. However, is it the sate of Brahman before creation ? May be, because any activity in AZ state will lead to raising the temperature to Non-AZ state.

In fact, we cannot definitely say or predict what would be the state of affairs in AZ state. We simply don't know. All opinions are just opinions.


Regards,

OM

saidevo
15 April 2009, 09:13 AM
Namaste Devotee.

You have given some good points to think about vis-a-vis my doubts, with perhaps good scientific accuracy.



The absolute temperature has nothing to do with the motion of the body. The state of the motion of the body would remain unchanged even on encountering the Absolute Temperature. This is, because the temperature is nothing but a measure of intensity of vibration of molecules which comes to standstill at absolute zero but the motion of an object is not affected by its molecular movement as long as the body acts as one object & molecules don't disperse.


In modern physics, heat is defined as "any transfer of energy from one body or system to another due to a difference in temperature." And temperature is a physical, therodynamic property. It is a measure related to the average kinetic energy of the atoms of the body or system.

Now "kinetic energy of an object is the extra energy which it possesses due to its motion." A spacecraft until it reaches its orbital velocity is powered by chemical energy and heat but once it is there in orbit, its kinetic energy remains constant because there is almost no friction in space. When the spacecraft re-enters the earth's atmosphere, the kinetic energy is converted to heat.

This means that motion is purely on account of kinetic energy, which in turn relates to temperature, and when the temperature is AZ, there would be no kinetic energy possessed by the molecules and consequently all molecular motion ceases. In this zero entropy condition, molecules would be held in their positions as in crystals, pure substances forming perfect crystals. Thus AZ is a completely frozen world!

This is fine and understandable, but my question is about the motion and vibration of the subatomic particles, specially the electron, proton, and the neutron. The atoms in the molecule must need to maintain their shape and thermodynamic structure or else there will be PraLayA! When there is no kinetic energy because of the AZ temperature, what maintains the subatomic motion and vibration?

Perhaps we have the answer in the example of a spacecraft orbiting the earth. It is not that there is no kinetic energy at AZ, but that the KE of subatomic particles would be held constant since the orbiting electrons would have reached their orbital velocities. Even as the gravitational pull of the earth maintains the spacecraft in orbit, so would the pull of the nucleus maintain the electrons in their orbits. Thus, while the world of AZ is a frozen world for molecular movement, it is perhaps an automated world in the case of atoms.

The metaphysical point of these observations is that the Cosmic Consciousness is at play, maintaining and preserving the micro world of atoms and molecules at all times and temperatures. At AZ, since there is no external molecular movement, only subatomic movement and vibration, the whole world of AZ is in a balanced state of physical manifestation, and perhaps this is the Prakriti of SaMkhya before PuruSha interacted with it, using the carried over karmic seeds of the previous cycle of creation.



Scientifically,Absolute Zero cannot be reached. However, is it the sate of Brahman before creation ? May be, because any activity in AZ state will lead to raising the temperature to Non-AZ state.

In fact, we cannot definitely say or predict what would be the state of affairs in AZ state. We simply don't know. All opinions are just opinions.


All opinions are just opinions, I agree, and all predictions may be definite but then we learn giving a free rein to our mind; and who knows, some of our opinions and speculations might be part of valid metaphysical hypotheses! Since we are not scientists, we always have the advantage of trans-scientific thinking.

atanu
01 May 2009, 12:15 AM
I brought the following from another thread since i felt that it can serve a purpose here.


Simex, in another thread, provided a nice pictorial depiction of truth as a continuum, which appears discrete due to its un-evenness.

It is like wave-particle duality. One must eventually know the fabric that connects every low and high and also remains as the substratum for all shapes/names that are formed due to continuous unfoldment of the continuum called Brahman (homogeneous fabric).

Further, the various shapes, hills, valleys, cliffs, shadows, bright spots, hot areas, cool areas, war, peace, love, hatred, etc etc. that are generated continously on the surface of substratum on account of continuous unfoldment/foldment of the fabric will indeed be chaos.

If the powers did not assign names and meanings and sequences. In Svet. Upanishad, it is said that Lord institutes order in the midst of Chaos. He is the Buddhi in this chaos.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
29 May 2009, 11:32 PM
Friends,

In 'Times of India' today there are two interesting columns. One is 'Let's work out Love', by Steven Strogaz, Professor of Applied Mathematics at Cornell.

The authour makes it very interesting, the flavour of which will vanish in my summary. But one can read the original on net. The summary goes like this.

Newton, cryptically said "It is useful to solve differential equations". Which means that the Universe can be precisely understood in terms of differential equations. That was when Newton solved 2 Body problems with Sun and Planet. When Newton turned to solve 3 Body problem, with Sun, Planet, and Moon, He remarked "Headache". It was intractable and led to chaotic results.

No one could do it and that led to the science of Chaotic Dynamics.

The interesting part is that the present author salutes Newton, and says that TWO BODY LOVE SYSTEM can also be solved through differential equations, though the attributes would be many or almost infinite; such as two way reactions of moods in almost infinite array (reaction to one's own and reaction to the second body's mood). But still it could be done, as the author says.

But in real life, the mathematics professor learned a hard way that it is chaos and un-solvable, when he found that in his own love affair, he has forgotten to factor-in his girlfriend's attraction for her previous lover.

That made it a THREE BODY PROBLEM --- chaotic, intractable, and unpredicatable.:D

I understand why the world is chaos and unknown to us: We are grappling with 'infinite body' problem, failing to solve the 'one spirit' solution.

-----------------------------------

The second article is by Osho on Evolution. The essay is an eye opener.

It is not that the body of a Monkey will become Man with time. Osho clarifies that it is the soul that evolves and acquires a suitable body.

Just beautiful, clear and precise. Yes, this is what Upanishad says.

Osho further clarifies that Man still carries the animal instincts and some exhibit meekness and others ferociousness -- all depending on the past conditions of the soul. The full essay must be read.

Om

yajvan
01 June 2009, 07:43 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté



Take a ball and place it in an Absolute Zero environment

We talked about absolute zero... this is a Nova program I watched on freezing, refrigeration, absolute zero, etc. Which assisted me in my (meager) understanding of this subject matter.


It is very good i.e. well done, informative, etc. It is in-depth and gives plenty of info ... it is 1 hr 43 min long.
If one wanted to know more about 'cold' and its genesis of our scientific knowledge of it, this may be for you:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/63745/nova-absolute-zero?c=News-and-Information#s-p11-sa-i1

praṇām