Is consciousness the reflection of matter?

[mithya]

Hi,

Let's say I am conscious of a certain object, say a table. Now if the table were to disappear, I would no longer be conscious of it. I may be conscious of the memory, but even that memory is made possible only because a table must've existed in the real world at some point in time. Does it follow that consciousness merely exists as a reflection of material objects, with the brain functioning as a reflecting medium?

To simplify it, matter=object, brain=mirror, consciousness=image. Meaning, matter (objects) are reflected by brain (mirror), and consequently a series of images called consciousness is formed. Which is why, we're no longer conscious once we die, because without the mirror, no image is possible. Likewise, without objects, no image is possible, which is why during deep sleep, there is no consciousness at all (because objects are absent and therefore no images/consciousness is created).

In other words, is matter the real thing and consciousness an epiphenomenon?

Your thoughts on this welcome.

Mithya

[saidevo]

Namaste Mithya.

There you have resurrected a dead horse, that was earlier flogged to death, and we need to flog it again, perforce, though this time it is only a donkey making cacophonous noises.

Anyway, the fundamental fallacy in your logic is the supposition of the permanence of the object-filled world. A second fallacy is the supposition that the physical brain is all that is to consciousness. Even hardcore scientists are wary of such suppositions, as you might know.

• You say that a table as an object is more permanent than the brain that reflects it as consciousness acting as a mirror. Alright, but how was the first table in the world created? How was its design made? Wasn't it made in the 'mirror' of the brain first before it was shaped up in the 'real, objective world'?

• Now, this table in memory is an interesting observation. Once you see a table with your physical eyes, its form and nature sinks into the memory. The beauty of this storage is that you can later on 'reflect in your brain' the same table in different sizes and colors, zooming in and out and enhancing its colors giving changes to its brightness, saturation and gamma corrections, as it were!

This means that though the original table is no longer there to see, the mirror of the brain reflects it as 'it desires'. If consciousness is just brain and brain is just a mirror of objects, can it have such desires?

• Another point is that you cannot have a table in memory before you have seen one. Primitive man saw objects of nature such as the sun, moon, plants, animals and other humans that were 'reflected in his brain' but then his brain was shrewd enough to customize them into designs, devices and constructs for his own life and living! Is a mirror capable of such intelligent improvisation?

• If there is 'no consciousness at all' in deep sleep, what makes a human wake up and remember about the peacefulness of his deep sleep? Can the mirror just switch itself off and on? If so, what 'programs it' do such things?

Consciousness is definitely reflected by the brain, from where the brain gets its intelligence, but this reflection is not of matter but of the divine energy. If consciousness is an epiphenomenon then the world would have come into existence at all.

[devotee]

Does it follow that consciousness merely exists as a reflection of material objects, with the brain functioning as a reflecting medium?
To simplify it, matter=object, brain=mirror, consciousness=image.

Namaste Mithya,

Your understanding of the term "Consciousness" & logic both are flawed as has been rightly pointed out by Saidevoji.

"Consciousness" means awareness. If "Consciousness = Image", what is conscious of the image being formed ? Image cannot be conscious of itself !

Now, does consciousness lie within brain only ? Let's see these phenomena :

i) An iron piece is brought near a magnet. The Iron piece gets attracted towards the magnet. How is the magnet aware of presence of the Iron piece & how is the iron piece is aware of presence of magnet ?

ii) There are two objects of mass "m1" & "m2" in space, separated by a distance "d". The force acting between the two would be directly proportional to the product of m1 & m2 & inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the two objects. In other words, a well calculated force acts between the two.

Now change the distance between the objects to d1 & the force changes again to a mathematically calculated value as per the above law. Now, who/what is conscious of the distance being changed between the two objects ? Who is aware of the Laws governing application of forces ? Who is conscious to make sure that the laws are obeyed without fail ?

I can give you many similar situations where there is no brain but consciousness is there. Think of these situations & then offer your comments.

OM

[mithya]

Namaste Mithya.

There you have resurrected a dead horse, that was earlier flogged to death, and we need to flog it again, perforce, though this time it is only a donkey making cacophonous noises.

Some people sound funny, when they try to be poetic.


Anyway, the fundamental fallacy in your logic is the supposition of the permanence of the object-filled world.

How so?


A second fallacy is the supposition that the physical brain is all that is to consciousness. Even hardcore scientists are wary of such suppositions, as you might know.

Does science say consciousness is independent of brain?


You say that a table as an object is more permanent than the brain that reflects it as consciousness acting as a mirror. Alright, but how was the first table in the world created? How was its design made? Wasn't it made in the 'mirror' of the brain first before it was shaped up in the 'real, objective world'?

Can you be conscious of a square circle? This will answer your queries.



Now, this table in memory is an interesting observation. Once you see a table with your physical eyes, its form and nature sinks into the memory. The beauty of this storage is that you can later on 'reflect in your brain' the same table in different sizes and colors, zooming in and out and enhancing its colors giving changes to its brightness, saturation and gamma corrections, as it were!

This means that though the original table is no longer there to see, the mirror of the brain reflects it as 'it desires'. If consciousness is just brain and brain is just a mirror of objects, can it have such desires?

Different mirrors reflect the same object completely differently. Even the same type of mirrors reflect the same object differently, if some of them have defects and other don't (such as dirt, scratches etc.). You can liken these scratches to conditioning, which would explain the origin of desires and all that.


Another point is that you cannot have a table in memory before you have seen one. Primitive man saw objects of nature such as the sun, moon, plants, animals and other humans that were 'reflected in his brain' but then his brain was shrewd enough to customize them into designs, devices and constructs for his own life and living! Is a mirror capable of such intelligent improvisation?

Same as above. Besides, the image that the mirror reflects is an insentient one, whereas the image that the brain reflects is consciousness, sentience; hence the the latter can function intelligently. This is why one shouldn't stretch the analogy too far.


If there is 'no consciousness at all' in deep sleep, what makes a human wake up and remember about the peacefulness of his deep sleep?

This is a matter of conjecture, isn't it? When you're conscious, there's so much disturbance, and therefore during deep sleep when there's no consciousness, this state is thought of as peace. Moreover, even if what you say is true, we say it's peaceful ONLY AFTER waking up, NOT during the sleep. If there's consciousness during sleep, we must be aware of this peace? But we aren't. As you said it yourself, we remember it AFTER waking up. That itself is proof that consciousness is absent in deep sleep, or we don't have to remember this so-called peace after waking up. We'd be aware even during sleep.


Consciousness is definitely reflected by the brain, from where the brain gets its intelligence, but this reflection is not of matter but of the divine energy. If consciousness is an epiphenomenon then the world would have come into existence at all.

How so?

[mithya]

An interesting video that shows that so-called nirvana, brahman consciousness is all in the head. This is an amazing insight into the whole thing by a brain scientist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU

[atanu]

An interesting video that shows that so-called nirvana, brahman consciousness is all in the head. This is an amazing insight into the whole thing by a brain scientist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU

Namaste Mithya,

Granted. But where is that Head, which keeps so-called Nirvana, Brahman Consciousness etc.? In a dead body, the head is very much present but there is no consciousness? Where is that Head?

-----------------

Once upon a time, I intuited that Anil Antony and Nirotu were one person. Your posts now lend credence to my intuition that Mithya and Anadi are not two.:D

Anadi had mentioned that a whip of air anhilates the consciousness. You also harp on the same theme without differentiating the subject and the object.

pra-gyAna is that which is before gyAna (objective consciousness of objects). pra-gyAna is that which leads to or gives rise to gyAna The gyAna varies or may be altogether absent but that does not mean that pra-gyAna has been anhilated.

-------------------------

Suppose you are air and there is nothing but undifferentiated air around. What will you perceive? You will perceive nothing, owing to absence of a second object that can be heard, smelled, seen, touched, or felt. This state is called pra-GyAna ghana -- unbroken conciousness. The deep sleep is like that. There is no second being to be known there. Lack of desire has dissolved all sensual perceptions of differences. Knowing this one is able to dip into the reservoir of bliss and sustenance at will --- in meditation.

When you say consciousness is reflection of matter, you are partly correct, since no one has seen the objective Universe in absence of a body. Yet that body is a construct of consciousness only, based on particular desires. On dissolution of the desires, the body and the Universe also disslove.

But, when you say that consciousness is reflection of matter (without acknowledging that the matter itself is consciousness), you are either a materialist or a mAyAvAdin. Who can ever argue that a piece of metal or a stone will in time acquire consciousness and become intelligent? Only a materialist or a mAyAvAdin can imagine so. An advaitin can never imagine so.

Om Namah Shivaya


Note: Thank you mithya for the excellent link.

[atanu]

This is an amazing insight into the whole thing by a brain scientist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU

It is more amazing that the truth of consciousness and bliss has been taught by yogis of yore. They have taught the science of immoratlity. Isn't that amazing. Mandukya Upanishad is the Science.

The problem with the understanding in the linked video is that the right hemisphere of brain is also dead in a dead body. So, "I am" precedes the right or left hemispheres of the inert brain. And pure Pragnya Ghana precedes the "I am" proclamation. And Atman is the revealer of Pragnya Ghana.

Om

[satay]

namaskar,


An interesting video that shows that so-called nirvana, brahman consciousness is all in the head. This is an amazing insight into the whole thing by a brain scientist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU

Thanks for posting the link Mithya. I found the video very interesting. However, I think that you might have missed the point that the doctor was trying to make across.

I also enjoyed the comments posted on the video.

[satay]

Prananm,


The problem with the understanding in the linked video is that the right hemisphere of brain is also dead in a dead body. So, "I am" precedes the right or left hemispheres of the inert brain. And pure Pragnya Ghana precedes the "I am" proclamation. And Atman is the revealer of Pragnya Ghana.

Om

I couldn't have said it better. :)

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Ādi Śaṅkara in his Dṛg-Dṛśya Viveka , 5th śloka;
Discrimination (viveka) between the seer (dṛg) and the seen (dṛśya)
says the following,

This Consciousness does neither rise nor does it set. It does not increase nor does it suffer decay.
Being Self-Luminous it illumines everything else without any other aid.

it does not rise - it has no birth, it is ajāti, birthless.
it does not set - it is without death, it is amṛtyu, deathless
nor does it suffer decay - it is akṣaya अक्षय - undecaying

praṇām

[devotee]

Namaste all,

Is the consciousness within brain ? Is the consciousness within living things ? Is the consciousness within non-living things ?

If the consciousness was within brain only, a dead man would have been conscious ! If the consciousness was not within brain & other organs of the body, the organs would not have worked so precisely & accurately as per their defined roles. If the consciousness was not there in the universe outside the living things, there would have been no agency to ensure that the laws of the universe are followed with mathematical accuracy even by non-living things. How did a stone know there is gravity around ?

So shall we say, "The brain, all living things & non-living things are within consciousness" ? It is Consciousness which appears in various forms & that appearance varies with the state of mind.

What we understand as "consciousness" within us is not unbiased & pure ... it is clouded by limitations of our senses. Therefore, the perceptions are not same. The green color seen by a person is seen as red by a color blind person ... who can say who is right (let us not forget that the term "color blind" is used only because he doesn't conform to the majority) ? The same color is seen as grey/blackish by an animal/insect who cannot see colors. The intensity of sound heard by every person is different. Why ? It is highly intense for the dogs & other wild animals. There is an animal which can hear the sound of movement of the ants inside ground ! We can hardly see a very limited spectrum of light & a very limited spectrum of sound & yet we tend to believe only what we see & hear !!

When I say, "It is a flower". This is only half true. It is correct to say, "I see 'IT' as a flower". We cannot say or even know what a flower really is without direct perception of things. I see the the color of the flower, the shape of the flower, feel the softness of the petals .... but I cannot say that it is really what exists. The color is a perception within my mind ... it is actually a electromagnetic wave of certain wavelength which actually has no color but that is interpreted by my brain as a certain color. The shape is also formed in my mind. If we see the structure & sub-structure of atoms, it is 99.99 % space ! What we have not been able to definitely prove that the balance too is nothing but space, is not known to us definitely ... our knowledge & implements for verification are too limited to go beyond what we have been able to know so far. Now, where does the space start & where does it end ? So, where is the shape ? The touch is one of the worst delusions we have. No two atoms can come nearer to each other less than a certain distance. Then what really is touch ? We really don't touch anything ! So, where is the softness of the flower ?

Now, is the flower really a flower ? It is all in our mind. Within the given conditions of mind & senses, it appears as a flower but we cannot definitely say what it really is.

Regards,

OM

[atanu]

An interesting video that shows that so-called nirvana, brahman consciousness is all in the head. This is an amazing insight into the whole thing by a brain scientist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU

Namaste All,

I think, in the linked video, I could see Vinayaka of brightness of thousand suns, clothed up in a gross body, and flanked by Mother on the left and Father on the right. Did anyone else see Him?

He is the obstacle in absence of sight of wisdom that He is. He is the remover of obstacles when wisdom (pra gyAnA) is known as ghana.

Om Vinayaka Namah Om

[saidevo]

Thanks to Mithya for the video link. Watching it was a beautiful experience. However, it seems that Mithya has missed the message of the video, as Satay has pointed out.

I think that the message is that the human brain is connected to the energy of consciousness of the universe as a receiver is connected to a transmitter of electromagnetic waves. While the right hemisphere filters and converts the transmission of energy to momentary sensory impressions using the five physical senses and their corresponding faculties, the left hemisphere stores away the sensory impressions for future association and retrival. This is why the right hemisphere is a parallel processor and the left a serial processor. The left hemisphere also creates the impression of ahamkAra, the I-ness.

In summary, the message, I think is NOT "that so-called nirvana, brahman consciousness is all in the head" but that the head is the instrument gifted to the humans to connect to the great Cosmic Consciousness of the Universe that manifests in the form of energy and that the brain has faculties to realize the Reality of that Consciousness and stay in peace, or filer and convert it into the world of the human ego and stay in strife, trying to maintain the individuality.

Here are a few interesting pieces of the monologue that goes beyong the human brain and body:

• "Information in the form of energy streams in, simultaneously through all of our sensory systems. And then it explodes into this enormous collage of what this present moment looks like, smells like, tastes like, feels like and what it sounds like."

• "I am an enery being connected to the energy all around me through the consciousness of my right hemisphere. We are energy beings connected to one another throught he consciousness of our right hemispheres as one human family. And right here, right now, we are brothers and sisters on this planet, here to make the world a better place. And in this moment we are perfect, we are whole and we are beautiful."

• "And as soon as my left hemisphere says to me 'I am', I become separate, I become a single solid individual, separate from the energy field round me, and separate from here."

• The doctor emotionally and beautifully describes her shock and pain as she learned that she was still alive after the haemorrhage, being painfully connected to her body after the liberation into a peaceful existence.

Finally, the question "Who are We?" that she raises and describes about the power we have to choose what we want to become, using the two hemispheres of our brains to tune into their greater source of energy and consciousness, is cleary trans-physical, if not purely metaphysical.

[mithya]

The question is: Is it possible without having a stroke to shut down LH, and realize the immensity of existence? Can meditation accomplish this? I highly doubt it, because if it did, most of us would be enlightened by now. So what else can? Is there some trick that can end this chattering mind once and for all? I don't mean temporarily, but forever. There seems to be no other way to verify Brahman, nirvana, whatever, without this direct experience.

I strongly feel that's the problem. Most of us accept books as authority, but unless we actually experience it, it's so hard to believe in the books. It's all fine to say consciousness is all, we're not the body etc. etc., but so far none of us has experienced such state. We feel we're the body, we feel we're limited, we feel separate from the world. Unless we can experiene that state where time and space are not, it's not easy to believe in the scriptures.

[devotee]

Namaste Mithya,

Thanks for a very important & beautiful piece of video ! :)

So, the question remains --- Are we what our left brain says ? Or are we what our right brain says ?

The continuous chatter of the left brain disconnects us from the "whole". Here is why the masters tell us to meditate --- to stop the chatter of our left brain. Then we have an opportunity to feel the connection we have with the Infinite.

Thanks again. This video strengthens my views formed in my spiritual journey so far. The both sides of brain are like transmitters cum interpreters ... "we" are ONE ocean of energy which is not confined to bodies alone.

OM

[saidevo]

Namaste Mithya.

It is good, your turn around towards the trans-physical.



The question is: Is it possible without having a stroke to shut down LH, and realize the immensity of existence? Can meditation accomplish this? I highly doubt it, because if it did, most of us would be enlightened by now.


Meditation is not as easy as it sounds. Only when done properly, would it give enlightment, and that in only progressively. A good Website to learn about it from the basics is http://www.swamij.com/index.html



I strongly feel that's the problem. Most of us accept books as authority, but unless we actually experience it, it's so hard to believe in the books. It's all fine to say consciousness is all, we're not the body etc. etc., but so far none of us has experienced such state. We feel we're the body, we feel we're limited, we feel separate from the world. Unless we can experiene that state where time and space are not, it's not easy to believe in the scriptures.


Scriptures to seekers are like the textbooks to the scientists. Just as the scientific textbooks contain empirical results, scriptures that deal with 'sAdhana' contain experienced revelations of great sages. And just as a scientist can only use the textbooks for guidance but has to do his research and experiment himself/herself, so the 'sAdhaka' (seeker) should.

[devotee]

Namaste Saidevoji,



Meditation is not as easy as it sounds. Only when done properly, would it give enlightment, and that in only progressively.

In my opinion, Guru's grace is also very important for success. Simply following the techniques mechanically may not be much helpful.

Regards,

OM

[saidevo]

Namaste Devotee.

In fact, initially I had thought of only one word as reply to Mithya's latest post: guru. In the digression of having to explain the importance of scriptures and the toughness of yoga meditation, I forgot to mention about the guru! Thank you for reminding me: yes, a guru is the most important requirement in any serious 'sAdhana', no doubt about it.

[TatTvamAsi]

Meditation and Yoga are the only way to experience the nature of reality.


The question is: Is it possible without having a stroke to shut down LH, and realize the immensity of existence? Can meditation accomplish this? I highly doubt it, because if it did, most of us would be enlightened by now. So what else can? Is there some trick that can end this chattering mind once and for all? I don't mean temporarily, but forever. There seems to be no other way to verify Brahman, nirvana, whatever, without this direct experience.


hahaha.. "most of us would be enlightened by now..." hahahhah..