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mithya
17 April 2009, 11:08 AM
It's the goal of Advaita and Buddhism to have a mind free of thoughts. The mind has to be empty to tap into the higher state of consciousness. The question is how. When you try to suppress thoughts, they become all the more active. But if you don't suppress, you're back to square one with a chattering mind. There seems to be no middle way here.

Any thoughts?

satay
17 April 2009, 11:19 AM
Namaskar,

I haven't read anywhere that Advaita or Buddhism recommends that you should 'suppress' thoughts or fight with them.

You are supposed to become a witness and watch the gaps in between thoughts.

The analogy I was given is: it is like sitting at the bank of a river. You simply watch the water flow by. You don't interefere with the water or tinker with it, you don't suppress it, you don't put your foot or hand in it. You simply become a 'witness'. This witnessing clears the mind.

yajvan
17 April 2009, 11:47 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Trying and suppression brings effort. Effort in meditation brings stress and/or strain. This keeps one from settling down. Meditation is about effortlessness.

That IMO is why people have difficulty with meditation. We're so use to effort, pushing, pulling to move forward, that when it comes to just allowing the mind to settle down and be easy, one thinks 'okay, lets go, mind, settle down... thoughts, move over there, hey what's that feeling in my leg, hey I have an itch on my nose... hey thoughts, get out of here, stop thinking I need to concentrate, concentrate!!!! ' This is the path of the ill-informed.

The process of settling down , or pratiprasava¹ some call parivṛtti¹ , is the process of returning to one's original state. The effort expended gives more 'mind' to the process.

It is by doing less, one accomplishes more , when doing meditation.

Do not take my word for it, try it yourself - the proof is in the pudding.

praṇām

words

pratiprasava प्रतिप्रसव - returning to the original state.
parivṛtti परिवृत्ति - turning, or returning

atanu
17 April 2009, 02:17 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

The process of settling down , or pratiprasava¹ some call parivṛtti¹ , is the process of returning to one's original state. The effort expended gives more 'mind' to the process.

It is by doing less, one accomplishes more , when doing meditation.

Do noty take my word for it, try it yourself - the proof is in the pudding.

praṇām

words
pratiprasava प्रतिप्रसव - returning to the original state.
parivṛtti परिवृत्ति - turning, or returning

Namaste yajvan ji,

I am not sure whether it is parivRtti (परिवृत्ति) or is it nivRtti (निवृत्ति, which is opposite of प्रवृत्ति). While the former means turning or returning to this world primarily, the latter means ceasing from worldly acts , inactivity , rest , repose. (I understand that parivRtti (परिवृत्ति) and pravRtti (प्रवृत्ति) are not same. But परिवृत्ति primarily means revolution).

And regarding effortlessness, I wish to point out that the mind of an initiate sadhaka has to be gently brought back again and again to repose in the Self, before effortless meditative state can be attained. Thus it is more work than allowing the mind to wander. Because, it is difficult, the practice of concentration must precede.

For an initiate sadhaka, discipline and effort cannot be over emphasized. No amount of theoretical discussion will help in absence of actual practise.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
17 April 2009, 02:38 PM
It's the goal of Advaita and Buddhism to have a mind free of thoughts. The mind has to be empty to tap into the higher state of consciousness. The question is how. When you try to suppress thoughts, they become all the more active. But if you don't suppress, you're back to square one with a chattering mind. There seems to be no middle way here.

Any thoughts?

Namaste mithya,

The goal is not to have a blank mind. Neither is the goal suppression of thoughts/desires (as all have pointed out). Suppressed desires tend to erupt with great violence. The goal is removal of ignorance regarding origin and ownership of thoughts.

Two words are used: manolaya (trance induced blankness of mind) and manonAsa (destruction of the artifact called mind). The latter is the goal and it is to experience clearly that the ego is non-existent. The artifact called mind is a bundle of desiring thoughts related to the idea of an ego. Once the ego is known as non-existent, the thoughts do not anymore relate to personal self, but are known to arise of their own accord directly from the Gunas.

In advaita, the final step is Neti-Neti or to paraphrase: it is to examine each thought and find out that the thoughts do not pertain to the real Self but to an artifact called bhandasura (fake demon). This process is also known as Vichara.

But before effortless Vichara can take place, the standard yoga methods to gain mastery over wavering mind, beginning with Pranayama etc., are required for all. Again, before pranayama and yoga, chitta suddhi through nishkAm karma is required for all.

Om Namah Shivaya

mithya
18 April 2009, 01:21 AM
It is by doing less, one accomplishes more , when doing meditation.

Do noty take my word for it, try it yourself - the proof is in the pudding.



I've tried this, and this is what usually happens. When I watch, after a while I get 'caught' in the train of thought. Then realizing I am thinking rather than watching thoughts, I go back to watching; only to go off on another train of thought. And so the game continues. I don't suppress, I make no effort, yet I can't simply watch without getting 'caught' in the thinking process. So where does the 'third way' lead?

devotee
18 April 2009, 11:08 AM
I've tried this, and this is what usually happens. When I watch, after a while I get 'caught' in the train of thought. Then realizing I am thinking rather than watching thoughts, I go back to watching; only to go off on another train of thought. And so the game continues. I don't suppress, I make no effort, yet I can't simply watch without getting 'caught' in the thinking process. So where does the 'third way' lead?

Namaste Mithya,

First stage is learning Concentration, as Atanu has rightly said :


the practice of concentration must precede.

It is better to learn under the guidance of a Guru. Trying to blank mind when your "dharana" is weak is not advisable. It can lead to problems. In fact, there is a reason why the Guru tells to keep this knowledge a secret.

"Watching your thoughts", like a flowing river is also known as Vipassana in Buddhism. There are many schools (e.g. Vipassana Centres of Mr Goenka) which offer courses in Vipassana. I have not attended this but I have friends who have done it. You get a perfect environment there & a teacher who teaches you the art of meditation. The basic course is a 10-day course.

In Raj Yoga, there are schools run by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Maharishi Yogananda Dhyan Kendras, Brahma Kumaris, Sri Ram Krishna Mission etc.

OM

ConnieD
18 April 2009, 06:36 PM
Don't get on the train!

Maybe here is a little help?

If thoughts are surging, or emotions are swinging about, consider you are waiting to meditate and while waiting you witness it all surging and swinging about to and fro and all over the place, as motion.

Think of a plumb bob.

I did this once, when particularly like I have described.

I thought: I am sitting on a "dung pile" (cleaned up version) and I am only witnessing thoughts and emotions surging and swinging about.

Once I accepted this and did it, the plumb bob stopped true.

Meditation began. I call it "waiting for meditation".

yajvan
18 April 2009, 08:09 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namaste atanu-ji


And regarding effortlessness, I wish to point out that the mind of an initiate sadhaka has to be gently brought back again and again to repose in the Self, before effortless meditative state can be attained.

Key word is gently... yes, I agree.

praṇām

yajvan
18 April 2009, 11:06 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namaste atanu-ji


I am not sure whether it is parivRtti (परिवृत्ति) or is it nivRtti (निवृत्ति, which is opposite of प्रवृत्ति). While the former means turning or returning to this world primarily, the latter means ceasing from worldly acts , inactivity , rest , repose. (I understand that parivRtti (परिवृत्ति) and pravRtti (प्रवृत्ति) are not same. But परिवृत्तिprimarily means revolution).
Yes, you make perfect sense.
The point I was hoping to bring out was 'ceasing' from worldly acts ( the inward stroke of meditation), then coming back out from it as a matter of course ; the notion of withdraw then withdraw from the withdrawal.

How so?
Let me take pratiprasava as tatpuruṣa ( a compund word) prati + prasava :
prati प्रति means back , again , in return + prasava प्रसव means being set in motion. It also means birthplace and procreation. So when we add this together prati or back, return + prasava or birthplace = returning back, or reversing the birth process , or returning back to the original state.

pratiprasava प्रतिप्रसव- returning to the original state.
parivṛtti परिवृत्ति- turning, or returning and as you said return (into this world) abslolutely applies and is defined as such; I concur.This whole process is sometimes just a hint of one word to imply this returning. This notion is considered within Patañjali’s Yogadarśana, chapter 2, 10th sutra:
te pratiprasava heyātḥ suksmāḥ

Yet I concur and agree the words pratiprasava does not = the word parivṛtti. My hopes were to just use a word or two, indiating this withdrawal ( pratiprasava ) & coming back from the withdrawal parivṛtti.

praṇām

yajvan
19 April 2009, 11:42 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namaste

mithya writes,


I've tried this, and this is what usually happens. When I watch, after a while I get 'caught' in the train of thought. Then realizing I am thinking rather than watching thoughts, I go back to watching; only to go off on another train of thought. And so the game continues. I don't suppress, I make no effort, yet I can't simply watch without getting 'caught' in the thinking process. So where does the 'third way' lead?

Let me offer another POV, not different from the other posts offered, just an extention of thinking about this. Watching thoughts can occur while setting quietly and/or when engaged in activity.

If a thought comes and you 'board the train', and particiapte in the thought, there is no issue. It was simple and your mind does what it does best. It engaged in something that might give a hint of satisfaction. You are doing the correct action by just returning back to the process of watching thoughts. If you whip the mind back, then you cause angst and this is opposite of what you wish to achieve.

Devotee mentions its like watching a flowing river ( which makes sense). Another idea may be this: it's like walking down the street
and you see others pass you by. It just happens. Sometimes you may catch a person's dress and say that was interesting, yet your movement forward was not impelled by the viewing of the person's attire. Like that this process goes. You catch a thought and let go , back to watching.

atanu-ji writes


But before effortless Vichara can take place, the standard yoga methods to gain mastery over wavering mind, beginning with Pranayama
This is good council - that of prāṇāyām. Prāṇa is tightly connected to the mind's movement. Manage prāṇa and you manage the mind.
We know prāṇāyām is the regulation of the breath ( that is why I call it 'management). Prāṇāyāma is a method to control the breath/life force, but at the same time āyāma, to extend it. The ultimate extension is perfect balance, the center or mādhya, of breath-and-no-breath.
Its like turning down the flame of a pot of boiling water. Manage the energy source (prāṇa) and one's mind follows suit. It is said as prāṇa goes, so do the senses. He or she that manages/ befriends prāṇa is able to manage and control the various dimensions of prāṇa - the mind, taste, touch, etc.

But what of this returning to watching thoughts? Or really the process of meditation and this notion of prāṇāyām, what is going on? Though meditation, one settles down the mind… The notion is to experience sūkṣma gati. What is that ? Refined, subtle, awareness.
Svāmī Lakṣman-jū calls this unfoldment of sūkṣma gati, anusandhāna, ever-refreshed awareness.

This retuning to watching the stream of thoughts or back to some mantra, or ones rhythmical breating brings ever-refreshed awareness.

If we look at the word anu+sandha+āna we have anu or orderly , methodically , one after another , repeatedly; sandhi¹ we discussed on various posts + āna is exhaling the breath through the nose or inhalation ~ breath inspired , breathing. This produces continually refreshed awareness.

Well how does one pursue this continually-refreshed awareness? Vijῆāna Bhairava tantra gives us the methods. This HDF set of posts outlines a few dharana ( a practice, contemplation, meditations) for one to consider: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2323 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2323)

Again utilizing the breath is simple and one gains results after a short period. This is the method of prāṇāyām and is outlined in 24th kārikā (sūtra) of Vijῆāna Bhairava tantra.

It is through this prāṇāyām method the breath becomes calm, some call this centering the breath and the mind. This centering, mādhya or standing between two, a neutral position, is called madhyamaṃ prāṇam .
So as one practices, madhyamaṃ prāṇam becomes established and the ability to experience this sandhi unfolds. It is here where turya resides.

IMHO If you are watching thoughts and you find no settling of the mind, no refined awareness, no peace or relaxation occurring then some additions to the process may be considered. Yet I find watching thoughts during activity useful.


praṇām


words
sandhi or saṃdhyā (saMdhyA) संध्या - juncture, or joining point.

yajvan
19 April 2009, 03:16 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namaste
I wrote in post 11 above,

the process of meditation and this notion of prāṇāyām, what is going on? Though meditation, one settles down the mind… The notion is to experience sūkṣma gati. What is that ? Refined, subtle, awareness.
Svāmī Lakṣman-jū calls this unfoldment of sūkṣma gati, anusandhāna, ever-refreshed awareness
Why is this fresh awareness so keen to the process? Awareness, being lucid harmony ( sattva) in action dissolves dullness and quietens the restlessness of the mind. It gently but steadily changes its very substance says Śrī Nisargadatta Mahraj.
This dullness ( tamas) my teacher would call stress, and it builds up within the individual within the nervous system ( he called the village of the senses). How so? By impressions made on the individual. Some impressions can be strong or weak but the 'impressions' overshadow the true natue of the SELF. They collect and store and over time cause grief.

This refreshed/purposefully aimed Awareness at finer and finer levels sweeps this away. Śrī Nisargadatta Mahraj said the change need not be spectacular, it may be hardly noticeable, yet it is deep and a fundamental shift from darkeness to light.

I see it as water over time that cuts away corners of rocks, shapes mountains and valleys via its flow. Yet the water is not harder then the rock and is completely fluid, taking the shape of its container, yet when it moves (refreshed awareness) it has the power to shape, re-form, and cut a new landscape. So is this power of ever-refreshed awareness.

praṇām