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Hiwaunis
29 April 2009, 09:58 PM
Pranam,
According to Pantanjali Yoga Sutra the state before samadhi one is beyond space and time. Where is the soul in this state? What would happen if the body died while one is in this state?

Namaste,
Hiwaunis

yajvan
30 April 2009, 06:29 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté Hiwaunis


I would assume you are referring to asamprajñāta samādhi? Samādhi comes in a few flavors, so says Patañjali’s yogadarśana, 1st chapter ( called samādhi pāda); Look to the 17th and 18th sūtra-s.

nirodha निरोध control , suppression , destruction. Yet of what? The fluxuations of the mind. Some call this the 'arrested state'.
samprajñāta सम्प्रज्ञात distinguished , discerned , known accurately; mind is 'partially arrested'.
a-samprajñāta or without knowledge, or known accurately - this is the 'fully arrested' state. Some call this objectless i.e. nirvīja made up of nir = nis 'without' + vīja = bīja 'seed' - hence without seed, or objectless.Hence before a-samprajñāta , one may experience samprajñāta samādhi, yet this does not meet your question of 'void before samādhi' occuring.

To be too technical on this matter leaving a-samprajñāta, latent impressions may still persist in the mind ( called saṁskāra śeṣa ).
Since thoughts may re-appear, the 'mind' re-engages and one is back to thoughts ( this has been my experience - returning to the fluxuating mind i.e. ignorance).

That said, the interval between two fluctuating states, can be considered void.

This becomes very technical - and I do not wish to bring confusion to one's mind ( mine too!). If you wish to go deeper and wider into this ( Less the dying part you alluded to), I would find the following book , which has been an indispensable part of my library for some time now:
The Yoga Philosophy of Patañjali by Saṁkhya Yogāchārya Svāmi Hariharānanda Āraṇa (Founder of the Kāpila Monastery); rendered into English by P.N.Mukerji. My copy is from 1977. Printed in India

praṇām

Hiwaunis
30 April 2009, 09:29 PM
Pranam Yagvan,
Thanks for coming to my rescue.

This becomes very technical - and I do not wish to bring confusion to one's mind ( mine too!). If you wish to go deeper and wider into this ( Less the dying part you alluded to),

Actually, it is the dying part that I am interested in. It seems almost impossible to reach even the first level of samadhi. Soooo, well I guess I am confusing the soul as the knower with a state of consciousness.

However, I see the soul and body just as one would view a computer. The computer (body) being plugged into an energy source (soul). So if one is in a state of consciousness where one is not aware of having a body or of time and space, one is only aware that it exist; is it like being unplugged from the energy source?

I guess I am trying to figure out what is the point of reaching the state of samadhi (happiness, joy, bliss, etc) and then having to return to this world ( sorrow, pain, trouble, etc) when one can just check-out while in the state of nothingness? The soul is not affected either way, right?

Namaste,
Hiwaunis

yajvan
30 April 2009, 10:29 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

NamastÚ Hiwaunis



I guess I am trying to figure out what is the point of reaching the state of samadhi (happiness, joy, bliss, etc) and then having to return to this world ( sorrow, pain, trouble, etc) when one can just check-out while in the state of nothingness? The soul is not affected either way, right?
Namaste, Hiwaunis

Ahhh! I see your point. I cannot speak from my studies that ātman is not affected. My teacher said many times we continue to go back and forth from these samādhi levels as if one were bleaching a colored sheet in the sun. What has to be completely burnt ( like a roasted seed the wise say), are the kleśa-s╣. How is this accomplished?

We bathe in the purity of turiya, then come back to diversity. Each time, the sheet becomes more pure (white), sattvic. So we do this again and again till the white of the sheet is there all the time. Then turiya is with the person all the time. One then is in balance - no amount of diversity can shake ones being.


When one is established in this 4th ( turiya) then sorrows are not viewed as such but as the play of the 3 guna-s. The world changes.


praṇām

words
kelśa क्लेश - considered 5 in number : avidyā 'ignorance', asmitā 'egotism' , rāga 'desire' , dveṣa 'aversion' , and abhiniveśa 'tenacity of mundane existence'. There are is another 5 list, but this will do.

saidevo
30 April 2009, 11:20 PM
Here is a brief from the book The study of Patanjali (1920) by S.N.Dasgupta, downloadable at http://www.archive.org/details/studyofpatanjali00dasgiala (17.6 MB).

• In the first stages the mind attains the discriminative knowledge but the PrajnA is not deeply seated; occasionally the phenomenal states of consciousness are seen to intervene in the form of "I am", "Mine", "I know", "I do not know".

Since the old potencies that progressively become weaker are not completely destroyed, these manifestations arise as states which are seen to intervene the flow of discriminative knowledge.

• In the higher state of mind in which the mind is in its natural, passive, and objectless stream of flowing PrajnA, it is called Dharmamegha SamAdhi. When one does not want to get anything from DhyAna even, there rises the true knowledge which distinguishes the Prakriti from the PuruSha and is called the Dharmamegha SamAdhi (IV.29).

The potency of this state of consciousness lasts until PuruSha is finally liberated from the bonds of Prakriti and is absolutely free ('kevalau'). In this state, the Chitta becomes infinite and since all its Tamas is finally overcome, it shines forth like the sun, which can reflect all and thus an infinitude is acquired, which has absorbed within itself all finitude, which therefore cannot have any separate existence or manifestation from this infinite knowledge. The PuruSha in this stage is said to be JIvanmukta (IV.31).

For a Kevali PuruSha, the GuNas return back to their PradhAna (primal causes): The GuNas as cause and effect involving ordinary experiences, SamAdhi and Nirodha become submerged in the Manas; the Manas becomes submerged iu the AsmitA, the AsmitA in the Linga and the Linga in the Alinga.

This state of Kaivalya is distinguished from the state of Mahapralaya thus: in Mahapralaya, the GuNas return to the Prakriti only to be reconnected in the later stages of creation to the PuruSha, so the liberation of PuruSha is only temporary. In Kaivalya, the liberation of PuruSha from Prakriti is final and eternal, so the state is never again disturbed by any connection with Prakriti.

• The SamprajnAta state has four stages. True knowledge begins to dawn in the first stage and culiminates in the final stage. Even when reaching the fourth stage, the Yogi might still have past Vyutthana (phenomenal activity now existing as the sub-conscious), threatening the true knowledge becoming absolute certainty and permanency.

So the last stage of AsamprajnAta Samadhi represents the stage in which the ordinary consciousness has been altogether surpassed and the mind is in its own true infinite aspect and the potencies of the stages in which the mind was full of finite knowledge are also burnt, so that with the return of the Chitta to its primal cause, the final emancipation is effected.

No mind which is not in the EkAgra or one pointed-state can be fit for the AsamprajnAta Samadhi in which it has to settle itself on one object and that alone. So also no mind which has not risen up to the state of highest Nirodha or suppression is fit for the AsamprajnAta or the Nirvija state.

While Vachaspati, Ramananda Sarasvati, and Narayana Tirtha say that the one truth EkAgra to which the mind should be settled and fixed is Ishvara but Vijnana BhikShu is of the opinion that by one truth any object gross or fine is intended.

**********

Space, AkAsha, is infinite. Time is finite. When the infinitude of true knowledge is gained in the state of AsamprajnAta Samadhi and made permanent by the Yogi, perhaps the Yogi who is beyond death and physical living, would still be located in a timeless space (timeless by our scales of time) (of Tapaloka)? Even the TrimUrtis are spoken of as being located in the Sathyaloka?

Perhaps the Yogi now has the Suddha Manas where there is no reflection of the GuNas of Prakriti. He might still continue to act in his continuing live(s) caused by his remaining karma, but would always be immersed in that highest state of liberation of PuruSha.

yajvan
01 May 2009, 10:05 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

NamastÚ



Ľ In the higher state of mind in which the mind is in its natural, passive, and objectless stream of flowing PrajnA, it is called Dharmamegha SamAdhi. When one does not want to get anything from DhyAna even, there rises the true knowledge which distinguishes the Prakriti from the PuruSha and is called the Dharmamegha SamAdhi (IV.29).

One must ask , why is this dharma-megha samādhi found in the 4th chapter and not back in chapter 1, Samādhi Pāda? Because chapter 4 is Kavela Pāda:

kevala केवल- brings one to the conclusion, entirely , wholly , absolutely; Kevala is alone , only , sole , one , excluding others i.e. liberation.That is , the establishment of the SELF as one's daily experience. Kevala is considered liberation and the absolute unity to the Divine.
Why then call this dharma-megha samādhi ?

dharma धर्म- that which is established or firm steadfast ; virtue
megha मेघ- 'sprinkler' , a cloud Dharmamegha is cloud pouring virtue that one attains. The 29th sūtra of Pata˝jaliĺs yogadarśana points this out as saideveo has offered in post 5 above. I also call your attention to the fruit that the 29th sūtra points to; that is found in the 32nd sūtra╣.

It says , After the rise of that ( dharma-megha ) the guṇa-s having fullfilled their purpose, the sequence of their mutation ceases.

The guṇa-s do not operate here. This fullfills not only the instruction Pata˝jali-ji offers, but all the instructions (the vidhi -formula or injunction) given by Kṛṣṇa in chapter 2, 45th śloka of the Bhāgavad gītā - be without the 3 guṇa-s. What then insues from this?

For Pata˝jali-ji it is termed kevala. For Kṛṣṇa it is yogastaḥ kuru karmāṇi ( chapter 2 , 48 śloka) becoming established in yoga, union with the Supreme.

Kṛṣṇa says in the same śloka , ever firm in purity, independent of of possessions and possessed of the SELF. His key word is niryogakṣema╣. It suggests that in this state of Being one free from duality , of being tied to this level of functioning and the sway of the guṇa-s. One is now free, independent (kevala) of the guṇa-s.

It is the relative field of life ( duality, homes, cars, actions, big, small, etc) that the guṇa-s operate. So with dharma-megha samādhi occuring , one becomes established in yoga (yogastaḥ kuru karmāṇi) and lives a life beyond the tri-guṇa-s

praṇām

words

niryogakṣema - niryoga निर्योग a rope for tieing cows + kṣema क्षेम- giving rest, peace - The notion is being tied (niryoga) to possessions and giving rest, peace to this ( kṣema ) .
nir = nis = without or free from + yoga is attaching or binding + kṣema ( giving rest)
32nd sutra
tataḥ kṛta-arthanaṁ pariṇāma-krama-samāptir guṇānāṁ
tataḥ or tad तद्- thus , in this manner , with regard to that
kṛta कृत- done , made , accomplished , performed ; obtained, gained
arthānām or artha अर्थ- motive, purpose, reason (fyi arthanā - is request, entreaty)
pariṇāma परिणाम - change , alteration , transformation into ( as a noun, a holy man)
(also as I see it, not 'official') - pari in the direction of , towards ; parinā - taken, deception ;parāṇ - turned away, having the mind or thoughts directed backwards.
krama क्रम - proceeding; uninterrupted or regular progress , order , series , regular arrangement , succession
samāpti समाप्ति- complete acquisition ; accomplishment , completion , perfection , conclusion also reconciling differences
guṇānāṁ or guṇa गुण - in sāṃkhya philospphy the constituents of prakṛti i.e. sattva , rajas , and tamas

ConnieD
01 May 2009, 01:51 PM
I say, no amount of adversity can shake ones being.

I am not certain however it is the state before Samadhi. My teacher said, with Samadhi the body may drop or not.

It seems to me, if free of the sway of the gunas, then, you have moksha?

atanu
02 May 2009, 05:10 AM
Pranam,
According to Pantanjali Yoga Sutra the state before samadhi one is beyond space and time. Where is the soul in this state? What would happen if the body died while one is in this state?

Namaste,
Hiwaunis

Namaste Hiwaunis,

The state before samadhi is almost like just before dozing off but instead of going into unconsciousness, it feels like falling into a supportless place.

Soul is surely in its own space in samadhi. Soul has the nature of Existence, Knowledge and Bliss. In nirvikalpa samadhi, it is that. But in intermediate space it can be in any Loka. During nirvikalpa Samadhi one cannot have any experience but while entering it and after leaving it one intersects and remembers the inexpressible bliss, which is said to raise one's hair.

See, the body never had a life that it will die. There are many stories which tell us that sages leave the physical frame/clothing to dry up like a piece of wood and never return to it.

Om

ConnieD
03 May 2009, 02:01 PM
I would think, this is surely be different from what people call astro-travel.

I have seen at least one reference to leaving the body (vis a vis astro-travel) and not returning.

Is there clarification, on this point, about sages?

TatTvamAsi
03 May 2009, 04:00 PM
"Astro-travel" is the willful transition of one's consciousness to a particular place in space-time causality. This, akin to a siddhi, can be accomplished by an "un-enlightened" person who has had some rigorous training in Yoga. The state before Samadhi however, is totally different, if I am not mistaken, from this 'astro-travel' phenomenon. I believe the former is from one's desire whereas the latter is a consequence of one's persistent sadhana.

As far as the sages are concerned, I am not so sure. I am sure someone else will chime in regarding that.

The only case of 'astro-travel' I've heard of was Adi Sankara who uses this technique to gain the experience of life as a King, who happens to be on his deathbed only to be 'revived' by Adi Sankara's consciousness, albeit for a short period of time.

My question would be this: when one is approaching Samadhi (or losing one's ignorance I should say), is one still conscious of oneself? It would seem almost oxymoronic if that was the case because the whole underlying theme of the Vedas is that you don't exist, only the Atman does!

Namaskar.


I would think, this is surely be different from what people call astro-travel.

I have seen at least one reference to leaving the body (vis a vis astro-travel) and not returning.

Is there clarification, on this point, about sages?

atanu
03 May 2009, 08:36 PM
My question would be this: when one is approaching Samadhi (or losing one's ignorance I should say), is one still conscious of oneself? It would seem almost oxymoronic if that was the case because the whole underlying theme of the Vedas is that you don't exist, only the Atman does!

Namaskar.

Namaskar TTA,

Thank you for your valuable explanation.

Atman is Sat-Chit-Ananda. There cannot be a separate existence. That is very dissapointing for many. Nirbija/Nirvikalpa takes away the individuality but depending on samskaras, the individual may come back.

Also, there are a few levels, as explained above: with or without object; with or without self consciousness etc.. The object of meditation, to start with is important. As Shri Krishna says: What one meditates upon during one's last moments that one becomes.

I think, all these depend on what Ishwara has planned for each one, depending on karma. He is the one who is Eko and also seated in a particular individuality and He knows what He wants to be next. Though Ego comes to know vaguely as to what motivation is rising and thinks : I wish to become so and so.

It does not know where from a particular motivation comes.

Om

atanu
04 May 2009, 07:07 AM
Samadhi are many but the one wherefrom yogi does not return is the ultimate.

Past and future are in the here and now: (4.12). This is stage after Pralaya, when the hard disk has been cleaned and there is no one else, only the Eko Purusha. From Him evolves future and past. This is Omniscience, since all happens from the moment that the EKO is.

But when there is no desire at all, not even for omniscience, then comes: the virtues of Rain Cloud and Gunas Resolve into their source (4.34) -the Atman (though the Yoga Sutras stop at dissolution of Gunas).

Before these two steps, I think, there are unlimited possibilties of gunas combining and pulling down yogi with bribe of siddhis, who may, retaining individuality, fly or know the future or animate other bodies etc. etc. All these are also possible in sankalpa free way after resolution of gunas into source that too without taint.

Om

atanu
04 May 2009, 08:50 AM
Samadhi are many but the one wherefrom yogi does not return is the ultimate.

Past and future are in the here and now: (4.12). This is stage after Pralaya, when the hard disk has been cleaned and there is no one else, only the Eko Purusha. From Him evolves future and past. This is Omniscience, since all happens from the moment that the EKO is.

But when there is no desire at all, not even for omniscience, then comes: the virtues of Rain Cloud and Gunas Resolve into their source (4.34) -the Atman (though the Yoga Sutras stop at dissolution of Gunas).

Before these two steps, I think, there are unlimited possibilties of gunas combining and pulling down yogi with bribe of siddhis, who may, retaining individuality, fly or know the future or animate other bodies etc. etc. All these are also possible in sankalpa free way after resolution of gunas into source that too without taint.

Om

After attaining dissolution of gunas, a yogi (a jnani) may choose to use only the sattwa guna and remain immortal, all pervasive. That is what Shri Ramana teaches and saidevo ji has indicated.

Brahman-Atman is that wherefrom the mind and words return. This has two fold meaning. In Atman (Turya), the mind and words do not operate. On the other hand, yogi may get his mind and words washed in the pure Turya again and again -- to be returned to the existential world for good of all. That is how shruti, gurus, and wisdom reign in the world.

Om Namah Shivaya

sunyatisunya
04 May 2009, 03:53 PM
Perhaps someone has experienced this and knows the territory better than I do -

During my meditation I often reach a state where my awareness is internalized and my senses do not function in the same way. For example, my eyes become closed and will not open unless I move to the state where those things occur. It feels like being situated "inside" the body, internalized.

While I am in this state, sometimes I feel a strong PULL around my throat pit area. It is the feeling one imagines at death when one is no longer able to breath and feels that "this is the end of my life as a body". It could also be described as similar to opening the drain in a sink and watching the water suddenly pour down it.

Each time this happens it feels as if that pull is the pull into an unconscious dream state. When the pull is felt, a host of mind impressions are there, as if I will fall into the dream state. I am not so sure though because it's really a rather intense, frightening feeling. Other times I slip into a dream state imperceptible and only regain fuller awareness later. I am wondering whether this pull is the change in states - neither wakefulness nor dream nor deep sleep but... turiya? samadhi?

I will tell you how to get there - with your meditation technique, you have to become established in your own subjective consciousness to the point where that persists more than the state of thinking and feeling does. Around this time, you should feel "inside" your body, the body having become totally motionless and heavy, and then the "pull" (at least for me) comes automatically after anywhere from a few minutes onward.

ConnieD
05 May 2009, 03:14 PM
I think the state just before samadhi involves humility and trust.

I am thinking, astral-travel uses what psychologists call the anima or the animus.

edit: However, it may only be "attention and concentration".

Samadhi however, is probably about the higher chakras. It would seem so.

In 1970 I was dreaming, repeatedly, about the "death" of the amina-animus. Finally, it stayed dead in the dreams and those dreams stopped. That was then.

Then, years later, after so many comments about the development of my "heart charka" (I was in California and people speak of such things there) I learned to more consciously start meditating. The kundalini-experience involved all the chakras, if not an illusion, so I confess I don't know if the so-called lower chakras are not "in play" in meditation-samadhi.

Before that time, I was "spontaneously" meditating: it started when I was about 4 and 1/2 years old. I saw Richard Hittleman's Yoga for Health tv show. He had a "special" about yoga asanas. In the kshetra asana, I "spontaneously" meditated.

Nowadays, I think what I have called "meditation" all these years may be what people call samadhi.

I have no awareness of time: I "meditate" for hours and hours.

I had to actually "learn" to quickly go IN and quickly go OUT of "meditation" because of an assault while meditating, my "teacher" said. He taught me how to be aware of going IN and going OUT of "meditation" and to learn to do it quickly.

I am mentioning these things, and asking these questions, because there are so many varying different "claims" about the spiritual life. I suspect samadhi is the "meditation" where I have no awareness whatsoever of time passing.

I do that so much, I was told I have a "contemplative vocation" but I am not a catholic.

I like the "meditation" but I think what people call "karm yog" may be my present duty, I guess.

I am trying to find out more, from vedic astrology if possible.

TatTvamAsi
05 May 2009, 08:56 PM
For all this talk of meditation and samAdhI, you have mentioned "I" 25 times in your post! What kind of 'meditation' are you doing? Just curious. ;)

The bottom line is, if you keep persisting that "I need to become enlightened. I need to attain samAdhI. I have experienced this" etc., the path to losing the veil of Maya is that much more difficult. For this, I will allude to the genius that was Herman Hesse's book Siddhartha! Do not ever lose track of that which you are trying lose/attain, for 'enlightenment' is attained solely through anugraha (grace of GOD)!

Aum Shanti Shanti Shantihi.

Namaskar.




I think the state just before samadhi involves humility and trust.

I am thinking, astral-travel uses what psychologists call the anima or the animus.

edit: However, it may only be "attention and concentration".

Samadhi however, is probably about the higher chakras. It would seem so.

In 1970 I was dreaming, repeatedly, about the "death" of the amina-animus. Finally, it stayed dead in the dreams and those dreams stopped. That was then.

Then, years later, after so many comments about the development of my "heart charka" (I was in California and people speak of such things there) I learned to more consciously start meditating. The kundalini-experience involved all the chakras, if not an illusion, so I confess I don't know if the so-called lower chakras are not "in play" in meditation-samadhi.

Before that time, I was "spontaneously" meditating: it started when I was about 4 and 1/2 years old. I saw Richard Hittleman's Yoga for Health tv show. He had a "special" about yoga asanas. In the kshetra asana, I "spontaneously" meditated.

Nowadays, I think what I have called "meditation" all these years may be what people call samadhi.

I have no awareness of time: I "meditate" for hours and hours.

I had to actually "learn" to quickly go IN and quickly go OUT of "meditation" because of an assault while meditating, my "teacher" said. He taught me how to be aware of going IN and going OUT of "meditation" and to learn to do it quickly.

I am mentioning these things, and asking these questions, because there are so many varying different "claims" about the spiritual life. I suspect samadhi is the "meditation" where I have no awareness whatsoever of time passing.

I do that so much, I was told I have a "contemplative vocation" but I am not a catholic.

I like the "meditation" but I think what people call "karm yog" may be my present duty, I guess.

I am trying to find out more, from vedic astrology if possible.

TatTvamAsi
05 May 2009, 09:05 PM
Namaste Atanu,

Thank you for your explanation.

I have more questions perhaps you can give your advice on.

When one is a jnani, assuming all samskaras have been dissolved, can one 'take birth' in a body at one's will? How will this, or should I say can this happen if there is no individuality in the perspective of the jnani?

The other thing that really 'bothers' me (I use that word lightly) is what Ramana Maharishi said about "you being the doer". He says that as long as we are in the state of ignorance (avidya), we believe we are the doers/enjoyers. However, when one becomes enlightened, it is apparently clear that one is not the doer! So basically what that means is that NOBODY ever acts of his own volition! It is ALL pre-determined? This is so intriguing to me because this is closely linked with theoretical research in modern physics (Quantum Physics exactly speaking) about indeterminate states (of particles) and pre-determination!!

What are your thoughts on this? It is almost scary in a way because we are so caught up in thisdream that we call 'reality' that the thought of being mere puppets strikes at the heart of everything we define ourselves with; ultimately being EGO!

Namaskar.


Namaskar TTA,

Thank you for your valuable explanation.

Atman is Sat-Chit-Ananda. There cannot be a separate existence. That is very dissapointing for many. Nirbija/Nirvikalpa takes away the individuality but depending on samskaras, the individual may come back.

Also, there are a few levels, as explained above: with or without object; with or without self consciousness etc.. The object of meditation, to start with is important. As Shri Krishna says: What one meditates upon during one's last moments that one becomes.

I think, all these depend on what Ishwara has planned for each one, depending on karma. He is the one who is Eko and also seated in a particular individuality and He knows what He wants to be next. Though Ego comes to know vaguely as to what motivation is rising and thinks : I wish to become so and so.

It does not know where from a particular motivation comes.

Om

ConnieD
05 May 2009, 09:45 PM
I am 62 years old this year. I haven't the slightest interest in impressing anyone.

My first statement:

I think the state just before samadhi involves humility and trust.

I am writing from experience, because I am being clobbered over in a different forum with a dogmatic rant from members of ISKON and I am looking for practical responses to where I am at, not from only reading a book.

I don't know how to dialogue about what I feel the need-to-know.

But at least I am making the effort.

I "posted" right here because there is already so much here in this thread and the thread looks so promising.. for practical and on the point help in matching book-learning to actual experience.

For example: If I am experiencing samadhi, I understand turya burns up samskaras, and, as per one posting here by atanu, I could be facing choices.

I reject siddhis. I have experienced one or more anyway.

I am actually fearful of jnani immortality.

I am experiencing gunas.

This question arises: If, by the end of my life, I am up to mahasamadhi (if mahasamadhi is dying during samadhi) is that moksha?

yajvan
06 May 2009, 12:08 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namaste


Men may come and men may go By 'I' (aham अहम्) go on foreverů.

praṇām

dera2
06 May 2009, 01:38 AM
Perhaps someone has experienced this and knows the territory better than I do -

During my meditation I often reach a state where my awareness is internalized and my senses do not function in the same way. For example, my eyes become closed and will not open unless I move to the state where those things occur. It feels like being situated "inside" the body, internalized.

While I am in this state, sometimes I feel a strong PULL around my throat pit area. It is the feeling one imagines at death when one is no longer able to breath and feels that "this is the end of my life as a body". It could also be described as similar to opening the drain in a sink and watching the water suddenly pour down it.

Each time this happens it feels as if that pull is the pull into an unconscious dream state. When the pull is felt, a host of mind impressions are there, as if I will fall into the dream state. I am not so sure though because it's really a rather intense, frightening feeling. Other times I slip into a dream state imperceptible and only regain fuller awareness later. I am wondering whether this pull is the change in states - neither wakefulness nor dream nor deep sleep but... turiya? samadhi?

I will tell you how to get there - with your meditation technique, you have to become established in your own subjective consciousness to the point where that persists more than the state of thinking and feeling does. Around this time, you should feel "inside" your body, the body having become totally motionless and heavy, and then the "pull" (at least for me) comes automatically after anywhere from a few minutes onward.

Pranam sunya,

I have no experience of meditation and the level you have attained. But I have been told that when meditation is attended with kumbhaka (stage representing the retention of breath during pranayama), it is proper. Often, however, due to fear and struggle of jiva, the stage becemes the barrier. Mind rises with breath again.

Only what i have heard.

ConnieD
06 May 2009, 09:36 AM
sunyatisunya,

I was not practicing pranayama, however I have experienced such sensations during a stage of my meditation experiences.

I decided to not take special notice.

I had been told there may be special sensations in the body and not to pay special notice. It wasn't that big a deal.

After some number of days, or months perhaps (I was unaware of the number) I noticed I was breathing equally from both nostrils. I had read somewhere, we alternate right and left with breathing thru both nostrils only a short time during the changeover to the other side.

I should say, I had also heard about complaints I did not appear to be breathing.

One day, I was frustrated with the number of gods and goddesses and so I was praying "will the real G-d please stand up". The experience was somewhat embarrassing. Anyway, I didn't die. Obviously.

I did have my first prana-breath experience.

I was not breathing but I had complete refreshment of breathing the best pure air, even better than fine early morning air.

I would not be surprised, if after some more meditation you experience some nice "experiences" like that.

I was told not to pay special attention to nice "experiences" nevertheless it was life-changing, for me, to experience prana-breath.

I got real conviction there is a reality better than always striving.

I do not know if these things occur before samadhi experience or because you are having samadhi experiences.

I also do not know if prana-breath is our true reality.

It is also possible the throat chakra is opening or "balancing".

I am not a guru. I do believe it is good to tell the truth I know and there may be something there for another person.

atanu
09 May 2009, 03:13 PM
Namaste Atanu,
I have more questions perhaps you can give your advice on.

When one is a jnani, assuming all samskaras have been dissolved, can one 'take birth' in a body at one's will? How will this, or should I say can this happen if there is no individuality in the perspective of the jnani?

The other thing that really 'bothers' me (I use that word lightly) is what Ramana Maharishi said about "you being the doer". He says that as long as we are in the state of ignorance (avidya), we believe we are the doers/enjoyers. However, when one becomes enlightened, it is apparently clear that one is not the doer! So basically what that means is that NOBODY ever acts of his own volition! It is ALL pre-determined? This is so intriguing to me because this is closely linked with theoretical research in modern physics (Quantum Physics exactly speaking) about indeterminate states (of particles) and pre-determination!!

What are your thoughts on this? It is almost scary in a way because we are so caught up in thisdream that we call 'reality' that the thought of being mere puppets strikes at the heart of everything we define ourselves with; ultimately being EGO!

Namaskar.

Namaste TTA,

Both your questions are important and i can only surmise the answers from the teachings. These questions i think are from the perspective of us who have individuality. These doubts lose meaning when individuality is experienced as of one consciousness only. For example, a body builder at repose and the same person when flexing muscles may appear as two different things. A mukta who exists as 'knowledge bliss' has lost the meaning of both individuality or of Brahman (as an entity). Knowledge-Bliss' does not take birth but may animate forms (or rather flex its own muscles for viewing).

Sense of wonderment at free will or lack of it is also for the individual and it has no meaning without individuality. On reflection, you will agree that the doubts arise for the thinker whose emergence follows the sense of individuality.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
10 May 2009, 11:49 PM
Namaste TTA,

Both your questions are important and i can only surmise the answers from the teachings. These questions i think are from the perspective of us who have individuality. These doubts lose meaning when individuality is experienced as of one consciousness only. For example, a body builder at repose and the same person when flexing muscles may appear as two different things. A mukta who exists as 'knowledge bliss' has lost the meaning of both individuality or of Brahman (as an entity). Knowledge-Bliss' does not take birth but may animate forms (or rather flex its own muscles for viewing).

Sense of wonderment at free will or lack of it is also for the individual and it has no meaning without individuality. On reflection, you will agree that the doubts arise for the thinker whose emergence follows the sense of individuality.

Om Namah Shivaya

Namaste TTA,

It is very tricky to separate out the feelings/thoughts/doubts of the ignorance called ego from the reality, which is doubtless, fearless, and immortal. Just as worries of a flexed bicep is meaningless, so are ours.

To be fair, the teachings also say emphatically that "i" does not rise any more for the enlightened, forever replaced by "I-I".

Om

ConnieD
11 May 2009, 10:15 AM
atanu,

"I-I" refers to the lower bird and the upper bird joined (referring to the example of the bird on the lower branch of the tree and the bird on the upper branch of the tree?

Znanna
11 May 2009, 05:02 PM
Sense of wonderment at free will or lack of it is also for the individual and it has no meaning without individuality. On reflection, you will agree that the doubts arise for the thinker whose emergence follows the sense of individuality.


Namaste,

This brings to mind the image of Kali Ma, the victorious Mistress who severs the head :)


Personally, I find that prayer, which is both active and passive at the same time, precludes such doubts. What matters free will, if the head is given over to HEr?


ZN

atanu
11 May 2009, 08:12 PM
Namaste,

This brings to mind the image of Kali Ma, the victorious Mistress who severs the head :)

Personally, I find that prayer, which is both active and passive at the same time, precludes such doubts. What matters free will, if the head is given over to HEr?

ZN

Namaste ZN,

True. But the thief, the imposter acting as the master of the house, does not easily hand over itself to the law. :)

Om

Znanna
11 May 2009, 08:14 PM
Namaste ZN,

True. But the thief, the imposter acting as the master of the house, does not easily hand over itself to the law. :)

Om


The foot in the chest and sword might be indicative of that, yep.

;)


Namaste,
ZN

atanu
11 May 2009, 08:16 PM
atanu,

"I-I" refers to the lower bird and the upper bird joined (referring to the example of the bird on the lower branch of the tree and the bird on the upper branch of the tree?

Namaste Connie,

I-I has no trace of duality. There is no thinking but only awareness. Trying to write or explain it is theoretical.

Om

atanu
11 May 2009, 08:21 PM
The foot in the chest and sword might be indicative of that, yep.;)
Namaste,
ZN

Namaste ZN,

That indication is sectarian and actually means something else, since He comes back from between Her thighs again and again and also She sticks out Her tongue in remorse (?). But in wisdom is there a He or She? Wisdom, pra GyAna is IT.:mad:

Om

Znanna
12 May 2009, 07:59 PM
Namaste,

As you know, I am uninitated, much less sectarian! LOL

I was merely commenting on the notion that artistic representations might be storytellings of experiences, in symbolic form.

From my point of view, if Godz (both unitary and plural damn the sexing) stomps on you, severs your head and sticks out tongue at you (no disrespect intended), then the notion of "free will" somewhat goes by the boards. Don't ask me how I know.

And, about that tongue thing ... I can vouch as female that sticking out my tongue aligns my body in a way that provokes reaction.

Honestly, I think that my simplistic interpretation of the artistic paradigm might have some merit.

OM.ZN

atanu
13 May 2009, 02:22 AM
Namaste,

As you know, I am uninitated, much less sectarian! LOL

I was merely commenting on the notion that artistic representations might be storytellings of experiences, in symbolic form.

From my point of view, if Godz (both unitary and plural damn the sexing) stomps on you, severs your head and sticks out tongue at you (no disrespect intended), then the notion of "free will" somewhat goes by the boards. Don't ask me how I know.

And, about that tongue thing ... I can vouch as female that sticking out my tongue aligns my body in a way that provokes reaction.

Honestly, I think that my simplistic interpretation of the artistic paradigm might have some merit.

OM.ZN

Namaste ZN,

Angry? Eh?

Yes, kAli does all that. Yet stepping on chest of a man (sleeping blissfully with abandon and with no concern) is a different thingy.:D :D True the notion of free will is just that -- a notion, except for the only one who is ajar amar and supremely unconcerned. That is a lesson perhaps, for me and for us.

Om

atanu
14 May 2009, 12:48 AM
Namaste ZN,

Angry? Eh?

Yes, kAli does all that. Yet stepping on chest of a man (sleeping blissfully with abandon and with no concern) is a different thingy.:D :D True the notion of free will is just that -- a notion, except for the only one who is ajar amar and supremely unconcerned. That is a lesson perhaps, for me and for us.

Om

Namaste ZN,

The revelation of kAli stepping on Shiva first came to Vasista, and is interpreted in two ways. Shakti worshippers of Ramakrishna Matha, who are inclined to Advaita, teach the revealed picture as fury of mother nature sustained and stabilised by the immutable unpurturbed. Some others also say that Shakti killed Shiva.

Which perspective one chooses depends on oneself but it has a relevance to happiness. The former understanding is of Veda-Vedanta of one whole without break and no death. The understanding of the whole is conducive to happiness. Exactly as the happiness of understanding Vishnu and Shiva as opposite, yet complimentery, yet ONE.

Regards and Love.

Bro.

atanu
14 May 2009, 05:03 AM
Namaste,
And, about that tongue thing ... I can vouch as female that sticking out my tongue aligns my body in a way that provokes reaction.

Honestly, I think that my simplistic interpretation of the artistic paradigm might have some merit.

OM.ZN


Namaste ZN,

This is the last post on the series. Without negating your view, i also wish to suggest that the interpretations are often influenced to lesser or greater extent by the cultural bearing of the perceiver. In India, it would be unthinkable that Mother will stick out Her tongue spitefully. Mostly, it is seen as either Jihva (tongue of fire) that laps up everything or as remorse in the way of exclamation "Oh No!"

No doubt your interpretation of the artistic paradigm has merit, in that we have the common understanding that the notion of so-called human free will is destroyed by Her.

Regards and Love

Bro

Znanna
14 May 2009, 09:07 PM
Namaste,

I do not want to be disrespectful, coming from a chaotic and western pov...

But it seems to me that there is a literalness in artistic description which supercedes orthodox interpretation.

"Free will" is academic point of discussion when GodZ kick your ass.

When Kali-MA tastes your blood, submission is the only option, IMO.


Love,
ZN

atanu
16 May 2009, 04:02 PM
Namaste,

"Free will" is academic point of discussion when GodZ kick your ass.

When Kali-MA tastes your blood, submission is the only option, IMO.


Love,
ZN

:) My ass is too small for her gigantic kick. A simple nudge from Her made me a devotee and submit long back.

Om

Hiwaunis
16 May 2009, 07:32 PM
Namaskar TTA,

Thank you for your valuable explanation.

Atman is Sat-Chit-Ananda. There cannot be a separate existence. That is very dissapointing for many. Nirbija/Nirvikalpa takes away the individuality but depending on samskaras, the individual may come back.

Also, there are a few levels, as explained above: with or without object; with or without self consciousness etc.. The object of meditation, to start with is important. As Shri Krishna says: What one meditates upon during one's last moments that one becomes.

I think, all these depend on what Ishwara has planned for each one, depending on karma. He is the one who is Eko and also seated in a particular individuality and He knows what He wants to be next. Though Ego comes to know vaguely as to what motivation is rising and thinks : I wish to become so and so.

It does not know where from a particular motivation comes.

Om

Pranam,
I think (actually not sure) what is stated above is the answer to my question.


"My ass is too small for her gigantic kick. A simple nudge from Her made me a devotee and submit long back."

LOL, WHA HA HA HA HA! Atanu that's funny as h_ _ _! I love this forum, I love all of you guys!

But seriously, hehehe (sorry, just a little giggles left)
So if the soul has not attained perfection but the body dies while chanting Om Namah Shivay that soul does what or goes where?

Namaste,
Hiwaunis

atanu
17 May 2009, 01:23 AM
Pranam,
I think (actually not sure) what is stated above is the answer to my question.


"My ass is too small for her gigantic kick. A simple nudge from Her made me a devotee and submit long back."

LOL, WHA HA HA HA HA! Atanu that's funny as h_ _ _! I love this forum, I love all of you guys!

But seriously, hehehe (sorry, just a little giggles left)
So if the soul has not attained perfection but the body dies while chanting Om Namah Shivay that soul does what or goes where?

Namaste,
Hiwaunis

If body is dropped while chanting Shiva and with consciousness full of meaning of Shiva, one becomes that. But understanding of Shiva may come in many varieties; so again there are millions of possibilities of getting lost in form and name.

On the other hand, true Shiva is nameless (Svet. Upanishad) and full, nowhere absent, present when there is no night or day; from which the pragnya of Savitur (deity of Sun) proceeds; beyond the category of great or greater or the greatest -- where everyone has to reach eventually. The refuge of all.


Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
18 May 2009, 09:19 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

NamastÚ



I would assume you are referring to asampraj˝āta samādhi? Samādhi comes in a few flavors, so says Pata˝jaliĺs yogadarśana, 1st chapter ( called samādhi pāda); Look to the 17th and 18th sūtra-s.

nirodha निरोध control , suppression , destruction. Yet of what? The fluxuations of the mind. Some call this the 'arrested state'.
sampraj˝āta सम्प्रज्ञात distinguished , discerned , known accurately; mind is 'partially arrested'.
a-sampraj˝āta or without knowledge, or known accurately - this is the 'fully arrested' state. Some call this objectless i.e. nirvīja made up of nir = nis 'without' + vīja = bīja 'seed' - hence without seed, or objectless. Actually samādhi is where there is no mind... svāmī Lakṣman-jū

praṇām

atanu
22 May 2009, 12:35 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Actually samādhi is where there is no mind... svāmī Lakṣman-jū

praṇām


Namaste Yajvan Ji,

Yes. Without the mind, 'this and that' loses its meaning.

It is further said that there can be two types of absence of mind -- in laya samadhi, where mind is existent but subdued temporarily; and Mano Nasa -- where the mind has been known not to exist at all. What is known as non-existent cannot rise again, though waves may come and go in prakriti. Laya Samadhi, which is akin to sleep, does not remove the avidya.

Regards

Om