sunyatisunya
04 May 2009, 01:34 PM
It seems that before I developed an interest in the Indian yogic spiritual traditions, I could only understand ordinary, theistic religions and philosophies and their direct negation [the writings of atheists against those theistic religions and philosophies]. This is mostly where atheists stand too - in negating the beliefs of theists who believe in a separate god who exists 'somewhere else' and can only be 'proved' through faith in him/her/it.
Does anyone have any experience in defending Shaivite philosophies [I'm really only knowledgeable of Kashmir Shaivism...] against the attack of the atheists' arguments?
I support them, in a way, when they attack feeble-minded persons and attempt to raise them to a higher level of intellectuality. For example, one person might hold a Bible up and say "Every word in this is from God Almighty, and I know this because I have faith in Him!" - the atheist will tear this person apart, and rightly so, I think, because it shows a certain weakness in understanding. The atheist will destroy the belief in God as All Powerful Deity removed from the Universe, and then ravage the person's faith in the Bible by demonstrating all the inconsistencies in it, its history, etc.
But some of these Eastern systems are more subtle - for example, as I understand it, Kashmir Shaivism teaches that only ONE BEING exists, and that could be called God, Shiva, Bhairava, etc., and perhaps this is given different names in every tradition which reaches a similar state of understanding. This ONE BEING takes on the particularity of everything in the Universe in order to lose himself in it. So a deer walking in the woods is the ONE BEING manifest as a deer, feeling his life as a limited deer, with a limited deer body and a limited deer mind, in a constant battle for his own life against other forms of life. Very exciting!
Kashmir Shaivism proposes this theory, that this whole creation is a play, or trick, or game in which the ONE BEING takes on the form of each thing, enjoying its particularity and sense of separateness, so that the ONE BEING can enjoy it! It's a very joyful cosmology indeed. So the practice of Kashmir Shaivism is how the ONE BEING who is manifest as a limited human individual, with a limited human mind, intellect and ego, - how he can re-attain to the realization of his own God-Consciousness.
Now, just from this point alone, we're dealing with a philosophy[I] completely different from the ordinary theistic beliefs that atheists deal with in their arguing. The ordinary theist says "I cannot show you HOW my belief is correct, I just believe it, and if you do too you'll see." This is emotional, when one believes something a higher reasoning shuts off and you interpret things in accordance with the belief. Yet Kashmir Shaivism teaches a definite HOW. It seems to me that if an atheist were to say "I do not believe all this malarky about a play or game of existence, that 'God' is playing the part of everything for fun, to re-realize his own nature, it's nonsense" then the Kashmiri Shaiva would say, "That's fine, you don't have to believe, but I can show you HOW to realize this: do these techniques properly and find out."
Now, at this point, the atheist would be stuck in a rut. What can he do? If he argues intellectually against the techniques, "It's absurd to think that sitting down and breathing can give one some sudden realization of actually being 'God'!" then he looks a fool because the techniques exist there for him to try. They do not require any money or traveling to be done, nothing of any inconvenience. So if he tries them... what does he find?
This is all so interesting. If I understand it correctly, Kashmir Shaivism would also propose that the atheist who is arguing is also the ONE BEING, manifest as that arguing atheist, and the ONE BEING is enjoying the particularity of that limited manifestation. What a strange game! And yet, it is the most life-affirming and joyful thing I have ever come across. Think of its implications in every area of life.
Let's say you have a pet rabbit named Stu who you are very fond of. One day, he dies. Understandably, you are upset. You lament, "Oh Stu, why did you have to die, my beautiful rabbit friend?!" and you feel depressed that life has taken away your friend. It reminds you of how everyone and everything you know will also die, and you yourself will die. Very grim, like existing in a sort of bad dream! The Kashmir Shaiva would know that the ONE BEING was playing as Stu the Rabbit just to enjoy that particularity, that separateness, that differentiated knowledge, and that Stu's death is nothing because it was only the dissolution of one particular, limited manifestation! It is everywhere! One laughs... and laughs...
Anyone any thoughts on this?
Does anyone have any experience in defending Shaivite philosophies [I'm really only knowledgeable of Kashmir Shaivism...] against the attack of the atheists' arguments?
I support them, in a way, when they attack feeble-minded persons and attempt to raise them to a higher level of intellectuality. For example, one person might hold a Bible up and say "Every word in this is from God Almighty, and I know this because I have faith in Him!" - the atheist will tear this person apart, and rightly so, I think, because it shows a certain weakness in understanding. The atheist will destroy the belief in God as All Powerful Deity removed from the Universe, and then ravage the person's faith in the Bible by demonstrating all the inconsistencies in it, its history, etc.
But some of these Eastern systems are more subtle - for example, as I understand it, Kashmir Shaivism teaches that only ONE BEING exists, and that could be called God, Shiva, Bhairava, etc., and perhaps this is given different names in every tradition which reaches a similar state of understanding. This ONE BEING takes on the particularity of everything in the Universe in order to lose himself in it. So a deer walking in the woods is the ONE BEING manifest as a deer, feeling his life as a limited deer, with a limited deer body and a limited deer mind, in a constant battle for his own life against other forms of life. Very exciting!
Kashmir Shaivism proposes this theory, that this whole creation is a play, or trick, or game in which the ONE BEING takes on the form of each thing, enjoying its particularity and sense of separateness, so that the ONE BEING can enjoy it! It's a very joyful cosmology indeed. So the practice of Kashmir Shaivism is how the ONE BEING who is manifest as a limited human individual, with a limited human mind, intellect and ego, - how he can re-attain to the realization of his own God-Consciousness.
Now, just from this point alone, we're dealing with a philosophy[I] completely different from the ordinary theistic beliefs that atheists deal with in their arguing. The ordinary theist says "I cannot show you HOW my belief is correct, I just believe it, and if you do too you'll see." This is emotional, when one believes something a higher reasoning shuts off and you interpret things in accordance with the belief. Yet Kashmir Shaivism teaches a definite HOW. It seems to me that if an atheist were to say "I do not believe all this malarky about a play or game of existence, that 'God' is playing the part of everything for fun, to re-realize his own nature, it's nonsense" then the Kashmiri Shaiva would say, "That's fine, you don't have to believe, but I can show you HOW to realize this: do these techniques properly and find out."
Now, at this point, the atheist would be stuck in a rut. What can he do? If he argues intellectually against the techniques, "It's absurd to think that sitting down and breathing can give one some sudden realization of actually being 'God'!" then he looks a fool because the techniques exist there for him to try. They do not require any money or traveling to be done, nothing of any inconvenience. So if he tries them... what does he find?
This is all so interesting. If I understand it correctly, Kashmir Shaivism would also propose that the atheist who is arguing is also the ONE BEING, manifest as that arguing atheist, and the ONE BEING is enjoying the particularity of that limited manifestation. What a strange game! And yet, it is the most life-affirming and joyful thing I have ever come across. Think of its implications in every area of life.
Let's say you have a pet rabbit named Stu who you are very fond of. One day, he dies. Understandably, you are upset. You lament, "Oh Stu, why did you have to die, my beautiful rabbit friend?!" and you feel depressed that life has taken away your friend. It reminds you of how everyone and everything you know will also die, and you yourself will die. Very grim, like existing in a sort of bad dream! The Kashmir Shaiva would know that the ONE BEING was playing as Stu the Rabbit just to enjoy that particularity, that separateness, that differentiated knowledge, and that Stu's death is nothing because it was only the dissolution of one particular, limited manifestation! It is everywhere! One laughs... and laughs...
Anyone any thoughts on this?