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Spiritualseeker
21 May 2009, 06:33 PM
Hello all,

This might seem like a silly question, but how do we know that gods and goddesses exist? Also are there any good articles by Hindus defending the belief in many gods in refutation to monotheist?

Also do Gods help in meditation?

Thanks
-Juan

Eastern Mind
21 May 2009, 07:19 PM
Logically, you don't know. Its all a matter of faith, based on spiritual experience. You had your Ganesha, and Siva dream, didn't you? Is that 'proof'? Maybe. Maybe not. I believe that God and Gods (my best anology would be Christian archangels) are absolutely real.

Aum Namasivaya

amra
22 May 2009, 07:11 AM
All the Gods and Godesses that make up the universe are inside the body on a smaller scale. There is no need of faith, it is a matter of seeing a fact, until you see, a million logical arguments for and against will only add to the weight on your head and push you further down. We do not deal in faith but only with facts, with reality.

Spiritualseeker
22 May 2009, 07:24 AM
Thanks amra

So it seems Hinduism is more practical than other theistic paths that just rely on Faith but no experience of the divine?

saidevo
22 May 2009, 10:13 AM
For an elementary view on this formula 'one God, many gods' of Hinduism, you might read this thread:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=442

If I exist in many of the roles and external forms I need to play/take, and then I exist as a single soul too, and since the truth about my many forms of existence is not just faith but experiential knowledge, it is the same with the One God and the many gods.

MahaHrada
22 May 2009, 11:14 AM
Thanks amra

So it seems Hinduism is more practical than other theistic paths that just rely on Faith but no experience of the divine?

Dear Seeker

Please consider that Amra is not a Hindu herself. Different to what she read about the subject, in Hinduism or bharata Dharma (any indian spiritual tradition) you are required to have faith and trust .
You need Faith in your teacher, in the doctrine of your tradition, and its scriptures (shastra), and of course in the object of worship. The devata, or object of worship can differ with the tradition and with one´s individual inclination and qualification.

Faith is not only needed, without it spiritual Life is not possible, it is that which makes up a human being. Sri Krishna says in the Bhagavadgita in Chapter XVII that a human being is wholly determined by what his beliefs are (skt. shraddha) and that religious acts without faith are both ineffective and not even praiseworthy. (asat)

2. Krishna said:The natural faith of embodied beings is of three kinds born of their nature either Sattvika, Rajasika, and Taamasika. Hear about that:

3.O Arjuna, the faith of each is in accordance with one's own nature
Man is made of faith what his faith is that shurely he is.

4.The Sattvik men worship Devas,
The Rajasik people worship yakshas and rakshasas,
And the Tamasik worship ancestor spirits pisachas and ghosts.

......

28. Whatever sacrifice, charity, austerity,
is performend without faith, Oh Partha is called Asat.
It has no value here or hereafter, O Arjuna.

Chapter XVII of the Bhagavad Gita
"Sraddha-Traya-Vibhaga-Yoga,"
meaning "The Yoga of the Three Forms of Faith"

Eastern Mind
22 May 2009, 02:40 PM
If I exist in many of the roles and external forms I need to play/take, and then I exist as a single soul too, and since the truth about my many forms of existence is not just faith but experiential knowledge, it is the same with the One God and the many gods.

Well said, Sir. I'm not sure how you could have any true faith without experiential knowledge. Is it not our experiences that bring us faith? Surely we are not born with it inherent.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
22 May 2009, 04:37 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Regarding faith, as I see it...
śraddhā श्रद्धा faith, unwavering faith; trust , confidence , trustfulness , faithfulness


It is my firm belief that śraddhā is an important ingredient to one's spiritual unfoldment or vipramokṣa¹ - But who I am I to say? If we looked to the Chāndogya Upaniṣad, Nārada is instructed by the great muni Sanatkumāra-ji. Nārada wishes to know Brahman in full, in his own being. Sanatkumāra-ji talks of 26 qualities. The 19th quality is śraddhā श्रद्धा faith. He says the following:
When having śraddhā श्रद्धा faith alone one contemplates. One of no faith never contemplates. Faith therefore is to be known in detail. Nārada says, Then revered Sir, I would like to know this śraddhā in detail.
Sanatkumāra-ji says the following:
When having steadfastness alone (niṣṭhā¹) one has faith. One of no steadfastness ( lacking niṣṭhā) never has faith. The steadfast alone if endowed with faith. Steadfastness (niṣṭhā) therefore is to be known.

It is clear ( to me ) that this quality is held in high regard. Yes, but what do you think yajvan? For me, this niṣṭhā or firmness or fixity or śraddhā, I have the following firm view:

That Brahman is all that I see and do not see.
That the existence of HIM (the Universal Self) permeates everything and is every thing, and I have the opportunity to experience/live that.
That I need to go no further then my SELF to realize this.
That one's owns sādhana, or spiritual practice is the tool to realize the truth of Brahman. Sādhana at its root, dhana¹ धन or ‘treasure’ is no further then or outside of me.
Even though I make the choice to realize the SELF, it is the SELF that reveals it-SELF to it-SELF ( this can be called HIS grace).
It is my resolve (kratu) & delight, or responsibility to set up the conditions for this to occur.In the Chāndogya Upaniṣad (3.14.1) it says sa kratuṁkurvīta i.e. he should make the resolve. This is part of the same śloka stating everything here is verily Brahman (sarvam khalviaṁ brahma).

Ādi Śaṅkarā offers more clarity on this one word 'kratu'. He says kratu is a firm will, with a fixed idea and sense of certainty that this is so, not otherwise.

To that end, I see śrāddha beyond blind faith but as adhyavasāna, that of perseverance, determined effort or of one-pointedness.

And as it is offered in the Upaniṣad śloka it advises and directs the traveler (adhvanīya) to make the resolve to realize this truth , that of sarvam khalviaṁ brahma. That there will be help along the way , by guidance, guru, and/or Divine help (Indra and Sanatkumāra).

Hence as I see it śraddhā (faith) gives support to resolve (kratu) + steadfastness (niṣṭhā) which helps fuel adhyavasāna, that of perseverance, determined effort or one-pointedness. But one-pointedness for what? To the realization that sarvam khalviaṁ brahma.

praṇām

words

vipramokṣa विप्रमोक्ष- loosing, release; deliverence from.
niṣṭha निष्ठ intent on; grounded in; now we can look at this word niṣṭhā:
niṣṭhā निष्ठा- firmness , steadiness , attachment , devotion , application , skill in , familiarity with , certain knowledge ; decisive.
This is rooted in sthā standing , staying , abiding , being situated in , existing or being in i.e. fixity
dhana धन- any valued object
adhyavasāna अध्यवसान- energy , perseverance, determination; one-pointedness.

Spiritualseeker
22 May 2009, 08:26 PM
Hello all,
thank you all for the great feedback. What would you recommend one who does not know if god exist? Like for me im not sure if perhaps the buddhist are right and that there is no creator god... I am having issues. I was losing faith even as a muslim for past 7 years. I wondered if all the god stuff was in my mind. And the calm and peaceful experiences I have felt without believing in a deity. So I am a bit confused. Im so lost but i seem to go in this samsaric circle. I would love to hear any advice

-juan

Eastern Mind
22 May 2009, 10:22 PM
Getting lost is just more of the path. There would be nothing to find if we weren't all lost in varying degrees. But within Sanatana Dharma we are taught patience. There is no great hurry or need to push the panic button. Enjoy your quest!

Aum Namasivaya

saidevo
22 May 2009, 10:32 PM
Namaste Eastern Mind.



Well said, Sir. I'm not sure how you could have any true faith without experiential knowledge. Is it not our experiences that bring us faith? Surely we are not born with it inherent.


Please do not call me 'Sir': We are more or less of the same age in this birth. You are perhaps a better seeker than us born Hindus (who are somewhat complacent), going by your great narration of your pilgrimage in India. Your sincerity, faith and understanding of the small hitches in Hindu religious practices are amazing, they are indicative of your spiritual stature.

Faith is largely based on our own experiential knowledge, but sometimes it is inherent too: When someone recommends me a new medical practitioner, a new washerman, a new maid and so on, I try them based on my inherent faith in the person who in turn has the experiential knowledge. A child's faith towards its mother and father are inherent. And man's faith in God (whatever his religion) is inherent to a large extent: he only seeks to get it confirmed by having his own experiential knowledge.

That said, I totally agree with you that gods and goddesses in Hinduism and other faiths are absolutely real.

Eastern Mind
22 May 2009, 11:05 PM
Namaste Eastern Mind.



Please do not call me 'Sir':

Vannakkam: For some reason I find this funny. Ironic, as I'm the same as you. I would have told you the same thing had you called me that. You are of course quite correct. Maybe our connotations of the word differ. For sure in the west it is less honorific than in the east, so if that helps.. ...
It was meant just to indicate that I respect your views.

But I am perhaps even more in the equality spirit than you. For example, it used to bug me when students walked behind me, so I got them to walk beside me. I was one if not the only teacher on staff that would use the students' washroom. Hated that 'class' thing.

On my trip I asked the driver to quit calling me 'Sir' but he just couldn't bring himself to it, so eventually I had to adapt. But the best part was in restaurants when the waiters always served me ahead of my daughter, and then I would simply pass it over to her. They always looked befuddled. One guy in Tiruchendur figured it out on about the fifth time there, and he actually served her first. Cheerful guy that he was. Same thing in elevators, carrying luggage etc. "Here, you're welcome to follow along, maybe open the door for me, and I'll tip you anyway even though I'm carrying the luggage." I don't think I could ever get used to being served like that. Read too many Gandhi stories I guess.

Let me assure you it won't happen again.

Aum Namasivaya

amra
23 May 2009, 06:12 AM
Yes I should clarify I am not a Hindu and do not represent Hinduism. Regarding my stance on faith it no doubt is an essential property in spiritual growth. But blind faith is a very dangerous thing. So someone interested in following any spiritual path should not rely on faith until one is fully convinced of its efficacy(the path's). I.e. one should test ones Guru and be convinced he is not false before having faith in him. Faith without being sure becomes riddled with doubt and becomes detrimental for you and others. I agree that to do something a man must have faith in what he is doing but before this he should know and understand what he has to do. We must take responsibility for our own development and not rely on externals as the false is prevalent today.

Znanna
23 May 2009, 11:38 AM
Namaste,

While I don't think we can *know* Godz, as Godz is/are unfathomable (in a quantum way), I am of the opinion that there is/are higher orders of consciousness, some of which are non-corporal.

I have wrestled often with questioning whether these higher orders are a projection of my own mind, or are extant independent of my interaction with them.

However, so very many supernatural things have characterized my experiences, I tend to the notion that some are not mere artifacts of my imagination.

The manner in which I encounter Godz is, after finding a good balance in meditation, "opening" a spot on the top back part of my head, and "flowing" Godz into/out of the energy raised in the meditation/prayer, if that makes any sense.

ZN