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Spiritualseeker
21 May 2009, 06:39 PM
Hello all,

I am not a hindu. However, about a year ago I had a dream (I was muslim at the time) that I was on perhaps a huge mountain or it could be a piece of land in midair. I stood before TWO HUGE statues. One was Shiva im not sure if he was standing or in a meditative position I have no recollection of that. Genash was right beside him. It is strange because I had not thought of hinduism in a long time. WHen I was 16 I looked a bit into it, however I never thought about it for years. As i stood before the statues I was in complete awe because they were so huge! There were other people just walking around. I turned and started to move and saw water rising off the side like an ocean and these strange animation type fish were jumping out.

Thats all I can remember.

I would love to hear some interpretation. Perhaps it was my psyche or perhaps it was something else.

-juan

Spiritualseeker
25 May 2009, 08:37 PM
Can someone please teach me some devotional phrases or mantra to Shiva and Genash? I would appreciate it. I want to honor my dream by doing some devotion even if i am not hindu.

bhargavsai
26 May 2009, 12:45 AM
Hello friend,

As you have asked some phrases and mantras of Shiva or Ganesha, I would like to help you. Shiva and Ganesha are among the 5 important deities in Smartha Tradition. There are thousands of phrases and mantras relating these two, but I would like to give you the most used or important ones:

For Shiva

Mantras:
Aum Namaha Shivaya(This is called as Panchakshari Mantra or Five Lettered Mantra) , This mantra is mostly used in the worship of Shiva, and it is given greatest importance by Shaivites.

Phrases for Shiva: Mrityunjaya Mantra, Shiva Gayatri Mantra, Sri Rudram

Try to listen to audio of this mantras and phrases to get clear idea.

For Ganesha:

Mantras:

ॐ गणेशाय नमः (Aum Ganeshaya Namaha)

Aum Gan Ganapatye Namah: This is Lord Ganesha's mula ("root") mantra .It is also known as his ''beej'' Mantra. This mantra is used for Yoga Sadhana in which we pray to Lord Ganesha and merge ourself with the supreme knowledge and peace. This is a mantra from Ganapati Upanishad. One can always use it before starting any new venture so that success comes without any hassle.

Aum Vakratundaya Hum
This is a powerful mantra from Ganesha Purana. When things are not in your favour, or when the minds of the people turn negative, depressed or discouraged, the attention of Ganesha may be drawn by this mantra to straighten their ways. The HUM symbolizes "Delay no more, my Lord, in straightening the paths of the crooked-minded ones." This mantra is used many a times in the Ganesha Purana to reduce the violence of cruel demons. In addition, this mantra could also be used for healing any spinal problem, such as curvature of the spine or curved limbs. Dedicate 1,008 repetitions of this holy word to straighten and heal such deficiencies.

Spiritualseeker
26 May 2009, 07:52 AM
Excellent! Thanks a lot. Do I have to wash up before doing the mantras or can I say them anytime throughout the day?

Sagefrakrobatik
27 May 2009, 04:20 PM
Interesting. What was your impression of Hinduism before you had this experience?

Spiritualseeker
27 May 2009, 07:47 PM
Hello Age,

Well at the age of either 15 or 16 I looked into hinduism and with blind faith would sometimes pray to the deities. But i wasnt officially hindu nor did i know what i was doing. I became muslim for 7 years and just recently gave it up. This dream occured during a time when I was a muslim. Ofcourse at that time I had the angry dogma that Hindus were Pagans and "stupid". Unfortunately I thought this way because I followed my Ego and the Islamic DOctrine strengthen these (Me against the world) view.

What was strange though is during that time that i had that dream, I had not really been thinking of Hinduism... So I dont see why I had the dream. I am very curious as to why I had the dream.

saidevo
27 May 2009, 09:44 PM
Namaste Spiritualseeker.

You have rightly understood the play of Ego which some anachronistic beliefs, specially in the Abrahamic religions seek to strengthen. I think it is a divine privilege granted to you to have had such a dream at such an age. Since you also have the right perspective about Hinduism, especially the practice of worshipping many gods, you might do well to take up some kind of worship, because a personal god brings God closer to the person.

You are now, however, not unique in having Hindu connections: we had an aged Muslim colleage who had visions of God Ganesha in his dreams, so he always kept a portrait of the god on his desk. He said his senior Muslim friends appreciated it and were of the opinion that he was divinely privileged. In God Ranganatha's temple in Srirangam, Trichy, Tamilnadu, you can see Muslim women maintaining the lamps at the outer courtyard, supplementing oil and wicks. In the vicinity of our residence, there is a Muslim shop that specializes in selling Hindu religious items: the salesmen there know as much as we Hindus know about our rites and religious practice. During my boyhood days, the severity of ailments such as the jaundice, scorpion and snake bites were reduced by mantra and the practitioner was at times a Muslim who would use a needle and a pitcher of water for the jaundice cure, would chant some mantras for sometime at the end of which the water turned yellow. Of course, this treatment was supplemented by herbal medicine. In Tamilnadu, several Muslims learn Sanskrit and study Hinduism and Hindu history in schools and colleagues.

Since the Vedic religion was prevalent the world over in the ancient days, it is not very surprising that roots of Hinduism sprout up in the soil of good minds; if they are carefully nourished, the world could be a much better place to live.

Unfortunately, my experiences with my Christian friends or acquaintances are not the same: with them I find an exclusive religious preference. Although they might not criticize Hindu religious practices, they wouldn't appreciate them either. To give an example, we had a pair of Christian colleagues who would contribute to the Ayudha Puja celebrations in the office, but would not partake them: instead, they would have their 'prasAdams' reserved for them before the puja began, so they received it unsullied by Pagan worship.

Spiritualseeker
28 May 2009, 08:02 AM
Namaste



You have rightly understood the play of Ego which some anachronistic beliefs, specially in the Abrahamic religions seek to strengthen.


Yes I feel it is way too close minded. It took me a bit to get rid of my old beliefs due to how deeply rooted the Abrahamic religions make it within a person. Its basically either you follow Islam or your in hell.


think it is a divine privilege granted to you to have had such a dream at such an age. Since you also have the right perspective about Hinduism, especially the practice of worshipping many gods, you might do well to take up some kind of worship, because a personal god brings God closer to the person.

I think you may be right. I was considering doing some devotion to Lord Shiva, however a part of me wonders if I should. Sometimes I wonder if there is a Deity. THen when im possibly accepting that perhaps there is a Deity it makes me wonder if Lord Shiva is. Because when I heard the story of Lord Shiva cutting off the head of Genash (Before he was given the elephant head) I wonder how come Lord Shiva wasnt All Knowing and All aware of who the boy was. Since if he is God then I think he would know. But perhaps I am thinking too hard. I would love some responses. I will try to tackle everything with an open mind.

A part of me wants to start worshipping Shiva, but I dont know if its just my desire for exoticness or out of mere confusion on my part.



You are now, however, not unique in having Hindu connections: we had an aged Muslim colleage who had visions of God Ganesha in his dreams, so he always kept a portrait of the god on his desk. He said his senior Muslim friends appreciated it and were of the opinion that he was divinely privileged. In God Ranganatha's temple in Srirangam, Trichy, Tamilnadu, you can see Muslim women maintaining the lamps at the outer courtyard, supplementing oil and wicks.

Do you recommend any particular devotions to Lord shiva? As already mentioned in the thread I learned some mantras in worship of Shiva and the mantras of Lord Genash.



Since the Vedic religion was prevalent the world over in the ancient days, it is not very surprising that roots of Hinduism sprout up in the soil of good minds; if they are carefully nourished, the world could be a much better place to live.


Are Vedas all preserved? Also is Hinduism older than shamanism?

Thanks for the response. :)
-juan

simex
28 May 2009, 10:23 AM
Also is Hinduism older than shamanism?



Well, Sanatana Dharma is literally "the eternal law", and is said to be timeless. If we take it to mean the action that springs forth from the correct view of reality, then I would agree that it is indeed without a beginning.

However, if you mean the formal group of religions in the Indian sub-continent which revere the vedas, then no, shamanism is much older. But then, shamanism is a very broad term, which accounts for all experiential and/or mystical traditions.

I believe it was Joseph Campbell who put forth the idea that the earliest eastern mystical traditions (i.e. Hinduism, Taoism) were codified versions of shamanism; that as people moved in to bigger and bigger cities, they needed shamanistic practices that would not disturb the neighbors. And so, from there we got meditation, mantras, etc... as opposed to loud drumming and ecstatic trances.

I mean, when the rishis wrote the Upanishads, they were living in the forest seeking direct experiential knowledge. They did not consider themselves Hindus, and I'm not sure that they even had a concept of a "belief system". For all intents and purposes they were shamans.

So I would say Hinduism is a shamanistic tradition, and by the same token, shamanism has always been Sanatana Dharma. But what use is dividing it in to categories? There is an unbroken continuum between the Soma drinking, trance seeking rishis, and the modern day householder performing a puja.

Call it the perrenial philosophy, call it shamanism, call it Sanatana Dharma; these are all words for the same thing. And what do all of these things teach? That we spin the most simple thing in to so many convoluted categories and objects. The one manifests as many. Om

Spiritualseeker
28 May 2009, 11:34 AM
Namaste simex!

Wow I never thought of it like that. THat does make some sense. Before I didnt know that Hinduism isnt just a belief system but an actual method for experiencing the divine. See what im looking for in life right now is not just a belief that I can just use my thinking mind to say "I believe this", I instead want confirmation through direct experience. I want the divine if God exist I want God, if there is no God well I still want the oneness of all things or the eternal truth.

THanks for the enlightening reply.

Next wednesday I am going to try to go to a Hindu Temple to learn meditation. Who knows where it will lead. Perhaps years from now (if im still alive) I will be a Shiva Worshipping fellow, or perhaps I will atleast tasted some Hindu Mystical Experiences that will help me become compassionate and loving.

Peace
-juan

atanu
28 May 2009, 12:38 PM
Hello all,

I am not a hindu. However, about a year ago I had a dream (I was muslim at the time) that I was on perhaps a huge mountain or it could be a piece of land in midair. I stood before TWO HUGE statues. One was Shiva im not sure if he was standing or in a meditative position I have no recollection of that. Genash was right beside him. It is strange because I had not thought of hinduism in a long time. WHen I was 16 I looked a bit into it, however I never thought about it for years. As i stood before the statues I was in complete awe because they were so huge! There were other people just walking around. I turned and started to move and saw water rising off the side like an ocean and these strange animation type fish were jumping out.

Thats all I can remember.

I would love to hear some interpretation. Perhaps it was my psyche or perhaps it was something else.

-juan

Juan,

Congratulations. Please allow me a liberty to point out a correction. It should be Ganesha, which means Lord of 'gana'. The word Gaṇa (गण), means "flock, troop, multitude, number, tribe, series, class".

Om

Spiritualseeker
28 May 2009, 01:02 PM
Namaste Atanu,

Thank you. So is the a at the end of Ganesha silent or do you say the a at the end?

ScottMalaysia
28 May 2009, 09:03 PM
Namaste Atanu,

Thank you. So is the a at the end of Ganesha silent or do you say the a at the end?

It depends. If you are a Hindi speaker, then the 'a' is usually silent and He is addressed as Lord Ganesh (as short 'a's at the end of words are dropped). If you are a Tamil speaker, there is an 'r' at the end of his name, so he is Lord Ganesar. Other Indian languages I'm not sure about.

saidevo
28 May 2009, 09:15 PM
Namaste Spiritualseeker.

1. The fantastic stories in the Hindu PurANas, such as the origin of GaNeshA with an elephant head after Shiva cut off his head, are often allegorical nature, illustrative of a larger spiritual truth. My personal impressions on the story of GaNeshA include:

• The head is a symbol of ego. GaNeshA when her mother PArvati created him, was arrogant towards Shiva, consort of his own mother, even after knowing him as such and waged a war in which he beat up BrahmA and VishNu (according to Shiva PurANa). Shiva's cutting off his head is the destruction of personal ego.

• The elephant is the most gigantic, most powerful, 'sattvic' (of sanguine temperament) and most beautiful animal. Its head symbolizes its sharp memory with eyes that can even pick a needle. Thus it is appropriate that GaNeshA has an elephant's head.

• Creation is a 'lIlA' (sport, play) of IshvarA (Shiva): a 'lIlA' in which Shiva himself takes active part; wherever you see destruction with regeneration, you can see the cosmic dance of Shiva. An author of a novel evokes our sympathy towards some of his characters, and our strong feelings of dislike towards some others. We don't ask that the author should have had a better knowledge than creating such dislikable characters, since we know that the fictional world moves on through the interplay of good and evil. This world is a fiction too, existing only in Shiva's mind.

To know about the spiritual truths about GaNeshA and Shiva, you may read these books:

'Loving Ganesha'
at http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/lg/

'Living with Siva, Hinduism's Contemporary Culture'
at http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/lws/

'Merging with Siva, Hinduism's Contemporary Metaphysics'
at http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/mws/

2. As for your own devotion to Shiva, you need not be in a hurry. It is essential that you worship him with faith and conviction. God is formless but Shiva is one of his manifestations. To start with you might try reciting in your mind the Shiva mantra 'Aum namaH shivAya'.

3. Sage VyAsa compiled the Vedas into four books, but what we have in this Kali Yuga is only a part of what was available in the other Yugas.

4. I personally believe Hinduism is older than Shaminism and choose to be skeptical about the theories of western scholars such as Joseph Campbell (and others) that Simex has spoken of in post #9.

saidevo
28 May 2009, 10:29 PM
Namaste Simex.



However, if you mean the formal group of religions in the Indian sub-continent which revere the vedas, then no, shamanism is much older. But then, shamanism is a very broad term, which accounts for all experiential and/or mystical traditions.


Recent archaeological excavations of graves might put them back by 12,000 years and thus view Shamanism to be older than SanAtana Dharma, but archaeology digs up only things nearest to the surface. Shamanism, IMO, depends on inducement of trance by external cultural symbols and articles and can be likened to some of the modern (and perhaps misconceived) Hindu tantric practices popular in the West and NOT to the yogic, meditative practices of Sanatana Dharma that require the strict asceticism of giving up physical and mental attachments.



So I would say Hinduism is a shamanistic tradition, and by the same token, shamanism has always been Sanatana Dharma. But what use is dividing it in to categories? There is an unbroken continuum between the Soma drinking, trance seeking rishis, and the modern day householder performing a puja.


Saying that the Rishis drank Soma to get their trance and discovered the universal truths by such drink-induced trance is naive. Upanishads cannot be compared even remotely with the Shamanistic texts because, IMO, Shamanism does not have a clear concept of God, except that God is basically polytheistic, animistic and sometimes pantheistic.



I mean, when the rishis wrote the Upanishads, they were living in the forest seeking direct experiential knowledge. They did not consider themselves Hindus, and I'm not sure that they even had a concept of a "belief system". For all intents and purposes they were shamans.


Yes, the Rishis had a belief system, because SanAtana Dharma was at that time known as the Vedic Religion; and they considered themselves Hindus because the term Hindu, contrary to popular misconception is not alien to the Hindu texts, check the book 'Antiquity and Origin of the Term 'Hindu'" by M.H.Pahoja at http://sarasvati95.googlepages.com/antiquityhindu.pdf.

SanAtana Dharma aka Hinduism is an integrated and assimilative belief system of dharma, religion, metaphysics and philosophy. Shamanism may be considered a part of Sanatana Dharma and thus its derivative but it can't equal the range and depth of Hinduism.

The term 'shAman' in Samskritam means 'appeasing, reconciling'. Shamanism is just content with that: appeasing and reconciling with the world of spirits and seeking their benevolence.

MahaHrada
29 May 2009, 06:40 AM
Shamanism as the term is used today does not designate a certain religion or a group of beliefs with a common history, like the term hinduism. It is just a term which became popular among scholars of religion about 50 years ago, so we can say shamanism was invented and accepted by western scholars of religion in the current age, before that time therefore it did not exist. (except as a designation for the priest of the ancient althaic religion who was called shaman and where the term was borrowed from)

It is comparable to the term Monotheism, Polytheism, Animism Pantheism etc that are also used by scholars of religion to define sometimes very different religions from differnt parts of the world and different times of history under a common heading for purposes of analysis and comparison of religious ideas of different cultures. and different times.

The term shamanism is used very loosely nowadays by scholars and even more loosely by people belonging to the popular new age movement, it is applied almost indiscriminately to a huge variety of very different traditional religions that exist everywhere around the globe, which according to these western scholars, share some common elements.

For instance the important and influential scholar of religion Mircea Eliade grouped traditional indian teachings such as that of the siddha sampradaya, which included nath panth, aghor panth, Kaula sampradaya, Pashupata shaivas, kalamukhas and kapalika sadhus and others as belonging to this group of religion he called Shamanism.

But also ancient african traditional religions, south and north american Indian religions, ancient celtic druids, australian aborigines religion are all grouped under the heading Shamanism.

What sense does that make? Imagine that according to that definition a south american indian tribal priest and a Sadguru of Nath Yogi sampradaya follow the same Religion, Rubbish. These theories are only mental constructs and often make little sense in real life.

How old can such an alleged religion be that is made up of so many different groups of people from so many cultures? It has no history. It is just a city in the clouds.

The church used to call all non christain religious practiconers by the derogoratory term heathens, the term is now almost forgotten and has lost its meaning, i hope this will happen to the term Shamanism as well it has become redundant already after only 50 years of use. The use of the term by Scholars of religion may have its benefits, but the followers of new age shamanism are inducing states of severe mental instability, by adapting practices from diverse cultures, via some copy and paste method, thereby loosing complete touch with reality in a really dangerous way, modern shaman practices and crash courses are driving many people to near insanity.

simex
29 May 2009, 09:22 AM
Maha,

You're talking about words, and I'm talking about phenomena. I have no interest in the conventions of academia.

I AM saying that a native american and a sadhu practice the same religion: Sanatana Dharma, Shamanism, the search for truth, perrenial philosophy, mysticism. I know the words fall short, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Do you really think the cultural trappings of these things are important to the truth ascertained? All traditions fit within Sanatana Dharma.

In the distant future the entire universe, including India, will be dissolved. A new universe will spring up in its place, do you think there will be an India? Do you think there will be Sadhus and pujas?

The eternal, ever present truth is not Shiva, Upanishads, Bindus, or Lingam, it is the thing that these all point to.

I'm sorry that you see brahman as so many mutually exclusive pieces.

PEACE
PEACE
PEACE

MahaHrada
29 May 2009, 10:12 AM
Maha,

You're talking about words, and I'm talking about phenomena. I have no interest in the conventions of academia.

I AM saying that a native american and a sadhu practice the same religion: Sanatana Dharma, Shamanism, the search for truth, perrenial philosophy, mysticism. I know the words fall short, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Do you really think the cultural trappings of these things are important to the truth ascertained? All traditions fit within Sanatana Dharma.

In the distant future the entire universe, including India, will be dissolved. A new universe will spring up in its place, do you think there will be an India? Do you think there will be Sadhus and pujas?

The eternal, ever present truth is not Shiva, Upanishads, Bindus, or Lingam, it is the thing that these all point to.

I'm sorry that you see brahman as so many mutually exclusive pieces.

PEACE
PEACE
PEACE

I think you have a real problem with understanding what i am writing about. Words are made to be descriptions of differences words fulfill no other function. It is simple as that. How can you communicate or talk if you don´t agree to that.

Lets make it more simple: An apple is called an apple because it is different from a peach not because it is the same. Both are fruits, both fruits are round. A circle is round. If i would paint a circle and say to you because both are round the circle is the same as an apple i am an idiot.


But if i say that a south american tribal priest and a Yogi from Nath sampradaya belong to the same religion, called shamanism just because they share some irrelevant common elements i am a scholar, or what?

A Religion called Shamanism does not exist. It is an academic concept of doubtful value, Thats all i say i am not talking about eternal truth at all since is not my topic.

simex
29 May 2009, 10:29 AM
If i would paint a circle and say to you because both are round the circle is the same as an apple i am an idiot.

...or a Rishi.

"What is here the same is there. He goes from death to death who sees any difference here."

-Katha Upanishad

Do you doubt the veracity of this statement?

simex
29 May 2009, 10:31 AM
A Religion called Shamanism does not exist. It is an academic concept of doubtful value.

I agree, which is why I'm pointing out how broad it is.

MahaHrada
29 May 2009, 10:47 AM
...or a Rishi.

"What is here the same is there. He goes from death to death who sees any difference here."

-Katha Upanishad

Do you doubt the veracity of this statement?


I do not like to discuss the Upanishads, and i think one needs a very long study with highly educated Gurus and be of brahmin descent plus you need a grasp of conversational sanskrit to begin the study of basics concepts of veda and upanishads in a fruitful way.

I do not have these Qualifications

But i am very shure the rishi would not eat a painted circle because he thinks it is the same than a mango because both are round. And as far as i can discern every word in this sentence has a distinct meaning. If every word would denote the same object speech is useless.

atanu
29 May 2009, 11:12 AM
Words are made to be descriptions of differences words fulfill no other function.

Lets make it more simple: An apple is called an apple because it is different from a peach not because it is the same. Both are fruits, -----


Namaste All,

That is true. Long time back I wrote that language is a lady -- difficult to judge and this lady, like a fleshy lady, also changes Her mood, like mountain clouds do, every moment. So, the underlying sruti, sura, svara, gita, --- etc. is difficult to ascertain. But apple and 'sev', though different surely denote the same thing. So, different words may have same meaning or similar meaning.

Beneath all tAratamya is the common note. I think that the goal of all true spiritual traditions, howsoever different in procedural and exoteric aspects, is esoterically common, and that is to know the common thread that never goes out of fashion.

Coming to the subject, I however, think that saidevoji and maha are correct, insofar as, shamanism is a very generalized concept, which lacks the precise stringing together by svara 'Om' as in sanatana dharma (or may be that i do not know as of now).

Om

Spiritualseeker
29 May 2009, 12:58 PM
Namaste,

I didnt mean for this to get into a debate. I was just curious because I hear hinduism is very ancient. I also wanted to learn more about Lord Ganesha and Lord Shiva. Which luckily a link was given in the thread. I am currently reading the first link called "Loving Ganesha" it is very interesting. I will continue to read.

Spiritualseeker
29 May 2009, 02:39 PM
Namaste Spiritualseeker.

1. The fantastic stories in the Hindu PurANas, such as the origin of GaNeshA with an elephant head after Shiva cut off his head, are often allegorical nature, illustrative of a larger spiritual truth. My personal impressions on the story of GaNeshA include:

• The head is a symbol of ego. GaNeshA when her mother PArvati created him, was arrogant towards Shiva, consort of his own mother, even after knowing him as such and waged a war in which he beat up BrahmA and VishNu (according to Shiva PurANa). Shiva's cutting off his head is the destruction of personal ego.

• The elephant is the most gigantic, most powerful, 'sattvic' (of sanguine temperament) and most beautiful animal. Its head symbolizes its sharp memory with eyes that can even pick a needle. Thus it is appropriate that GaNeshA has an elephant's head.

• Creation is a 'lIlA' (sport, play) of IshvarA (Shiva): a 'lIlA' in which Shiva himself takes active part; wherever you see destruction with regeneration, you can see the cosmic dance of Shiva. An author of a novel evokes our sympathy towards some of his characters, and our strong feelings of dislike towards some others. We don't ask that the author should have had a better knowledge than creating such dislikable characters, since we know that the fictional world moves on through the interplay of good and evil. This world is a fiction too, existing only in Shiva's mind.

To know about the spiritual truths about GaNeshA and Shiva, you may read these books:

'Loving Ganesha'
at http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/lg/

'Living with Siva, Hinduism's Contemporary Culture'
at http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/lws/

'Merging with Siva, Hinduism's Contemporary Metaphysics'
at http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/mws/

2. As for your own devotion to Shiva, you need not be in a hurry. It is essential that you worship him with faith and conviction. God is formless but Shiva is one of his manifestations. To start with you might try reciting in your mind the Shiva mantra 'Aum namaH shivAya'.

3. Sage VyAsa compiled the Vedas into four books, but what we have in this Kali Yuga is only a part of what was available in the other Yugas.

4. I personally believe Hinduism is older than Shaminism and choose to be skeptical about the theories of western scholars such as Joseph Campbell (and others) that Simex has spoken of in post #9.


Thank you very much for the links they are very helpful. So far Loving Ganesha is amazing. I am going to try to visualize Ganesha in meditation and try to be mindful of him to see if it affects me. If it affects me or if I experience Lord Ganesha then perhaps that will bring me close to him and I will know that he truely exist and then i can go from there.

Eastern Mind
29 May 2009, 03:33 PM
Thank you very much for the links they are very helpful. So far Loving Ganesha is amazing. I am going to try to visualize Ganesha in meditation and try to be mindful of him to see if it affects me. If it affects me or if I experience Lord Ganesha then perhaps that will bring me close to him and I will know that he truely exist and then i can go from there.

Spiritualseeker:
Prostrations to Vinayaka!

This is absolutely wonderful stuff, making me very happy. Its good to see my Guru's (author of the books you are reading) words being understood at a depth. One thing I want to mention is that Ganesha's mouse is an indicator that he usually works patiently. Slowly is not the right word. What I'm saying is that if you do not get the right answer immediately please be patient. Sometimes after prayer, later when you're just in a relaxed mood, the insight will come. Of course all this is in the books you are reading.

Aum Namasivaya

Spiritualseeker
29 May 2009, 08:14 PM
Namaste Easternmind,

Yes the work is very good. I am planning on perhaps purchasing a hard copy if I find it cheaper on Amazon. Im also interested in that book called how to Convert to Hinduism. I will look for that too if i can get it a bit cheaper. I find a lot of the contents of Loving Ganesha to make sense. Im still trying to understand some things though. Such as There is the Supreme Deity (God the formless) and I understand Shiva is an incarnation of the Supreme Deity, but is Lord Ganesha also an incarnation of the Supreme Deity? I hear the Hinduism is monotheistic in deeper levels, im just trying to understand the millions of deities. Just so i can understand.

-juan

Eastern Mind
29 May 2009, 09:14 PM
Namaste Easternmind,

Yes the work is very good. I am planning on perhaps purchasing a hard copy if I find it cheaper on Amazon. Im also interested in that book called how to Convert to Hinduism. I will look for that too if i can get it a bit cheaper. I find a lot of the contents of Loving Ganesha to make sense. Im still trying to understand some things though. Such as There is the Supreme Deity (God the formless) and I understand Shiva is an incarnation of the Supreme Deity, but is Lord Ganesha also an incarnation of the Supreme Deity? I hear the Hinduism is monotheistic in deeper levels, im just trying to understand the millions of deities. Just so i can understand.

-juan

In my view Siva is the Supreme deity, not just an incarnation. He has form and is formless. Ganesha is a separate being, and yet part of Siva at the same time, as we are. (Again these are my views and they are in alignment with the books you are studying.) Ganesha could be likened to a great archangel. He is a Mahadeva created by Siva to do certain specific things. He is close, easy to contact, and for Everyone.

Aum Namasivaya

saidevo
29 May 2009, 10:31 PM
I AM saying that a native american and a sadhu practice the same religion: Sanatana Dharma, Shamanism, the search for truth, perrenial philosophy, mysticism. I know the words fall short, that's exactly what I'm saying.


It's easy to say that a native american ShAman and a Hindu sadhu practice the same religion, the search for truth. This is acceptible insofar as we do not say that a Hindu sadhu and a member of the Christian/Muslim clergy practice the same religion, because there is no search for truth in the Abrahamic religions!

What is more important, however, is the level of perception of the Truth. From the absence of in-depth descriptions of that Truth in the Shamanistic texts, one can safely say the level of mysticism that a Hindu yogi achieves is far ahead of that of a ShAman. This is not to underrate the ShAman practice: only that it is not designed for such level of Self-Realization. However, I don't rule out a modern ShAman who is familiar with the Hindu Upanishads and yogic practices achieving the level of a Hindu yogi, despite the shortcomings of his religion, but so far as I know, we have not seen this happen.



In the distant future the entire universe, including India, will be dissolved. A new universe will spring up in its place, do you think there will be an India? Do you think there will be Sadhus and pujas?


I don't know if this truth is known from the Shamanistic texts, but the Hindu texts do say that a city like VAraNAsi created by Shiva is exempt from destruction in Pralaya. The Tibetans say the same thing about Shambhala. The meaning of this statement is that the divine blue prints of a city like VAraNasi will be preserved and the city recreated in the next time cycle instead of letting it evolve in course of time. Also, the Hindu PurANas say that since God's creation can never be imperfect, the same world will be recreated in every time cycle in the same way, so there will always be Bharat alias India!



The eternal, ever present truth is not Shiva, Upanishads, Bindus, or Lingam, it is the thing that these all point to.


Among the Hindu Trinity, BrahmA's lifetime is 1,000 divine years. I read somewhere (don't remember where anyway) that even the lifetime of VishNu is measured. I am yet to come across a statement that Shiva has a finite lifetime.

The eternal, ever present Truth is Brahman, which is also Shiva. Brahman, like Shiva, is the greatest ShAman in the sense that it/he is the greatest appeaser, or else there would be no Creation. Among the Hindu Trinity, Shiva is the greatest appeaser and sacrificer. He sacrificed a part of his body to accommodate Shakti and come down from his level of DhakShiNAmUrti and become an ArdhanArIshvarA. With her he enacts his cosmic dance of destruction and regeneration, besides appeasing his devotees and reconciling to their prayers. He never takes an avatar because he is in the creation-destruction-regeneration of every particle in the universe and beyond it: this is one reason that Shiva is Brahman and Brahman is Shiva.

Spiritualseeker
29 May 2009, 11:34 PM
In my view Siva is the Supreme deity, not just an incarnation. He has form and is formless. Ganesha is a separate being, and yet part of Siva at the same time, as we are. (Again these are my views and they are in alignment with the books you are studying.) Ganesha could be likened to a great archangel. He is a Mahadeva created by Siva to do certain specific things. He is close, easy to contact, and for Everyone.

Aum Namasivaya

I see. So though people argue with hindus because hindus believe in a pantheon of deities, it is very similar to the abrahamic religions concerning angels. In Islam there is an Angel that moves the clouds bringing rain. There are warrior angels and angel of death, or guardian angels, an angel of revelation etc.. I suppose many deities is not problematic.

But does GOd the Supreme GOD ever get angry with our worshipping of lesser gods?

atanu
30 May 2009, 12:05 AM
But does GOd the Supreme GOD ever get angry with our worshipping of lesser gods?

Namaste Spiritual,

There is a lot of confusion on this aspect. And I doubt that I (ego) can make it better. Let us try.

Hindu scriptures also say: The self slays those who are not mindful of the Self. The Supreme God, as per highest Hindu understanding is man's life and power of seeing, hearing, understanding, deciding etc. etc. In short God is the real Self in every one and in every thing.

Leaving this God, one who worships 'anya devata' -- an external manifestation of God/Self, will get lesser results and eventual death. This is so because such a worshipper of anya devata does not recognise the role of his own self in creation of the anya devata. Anya Devata is truly a creation of ego and thus we see fights of "My God greatest".

It is not God who gets angry with worship of anya devata but it is the self that slays and that also grants moksha. This self is different from the Self/God only due to ignorance of ego.

The Ego tells us: "I am this, I have beautiful wife and I possess this and that". Whereas, actually ego has no existence and cannot possess any thing. So, it is the ego that kills. It is ego that punishes. Another name of Ego is ignorance.

Om

Om
Om

MahaHrada
30 May 2009, 04:41 AM
What is more important, however, is the level of perception of the Truth. From the absence of in-depth descriptions of that Truth in the Shamanistic texts, one can safely say the level of mysticism that a Hindu yogi achieves is far ahead of that of a ShAman. This is not to underrate the ShAman practice.

There is an important point, that is, that there are no shamanistic texts as such, since the scholars of religion determine what is shamanism and what is not shamanism.

Mircea Eliade was instrumental in creating the theory that there existed in ancient times a religion he called shamanism. He said that in every country there are some remnants of this religion.

As i already mentioned Mircea Eliade wrote that some of the sadhus especially those Sadhu Sampradayas that i have mentioned are remnants of that religion and therefore the Yogis are Shamans.

The people that belive in the fiction of a shaman religion do this to all the different cultures and religions of the world they pick out same practicioners who use methods of trance induction and spirit journeys etc. and call them shamans.

Therefore according to the western concept of a shaman religion the hindu shastras of these traditions, like for instance Hatha Yoga Pradipika, are shamanistic texts.

Especially Yoga is considered a shaman religion because of the soul journey through the nadis and chakras and practicies of achieving out of body experiences.

But of course if you ask the Sadhus they would say that they are shaivas or shaktas and their shastras are Hindu shastras.

The same is true of all other religions that fit in the concept, for instance the Yungdrung bön (from tibet) also are a so called shamanistic religion but they themselves say that they are budhhists.

So if this concept of prehistoric shaman religion is true a lot of Hindu traditions especially those connected with the non dual agamic and siddha tradition, all yogis and sadhus and also many Shaktas that do Laya Yoga or any practicies concerned with Chakras, mantra and yantra or tantra are not considered Hindus anymore but rather shamans. So according to the shamanism concept all their shastras are shamanistic texts.

There are already studies on sale where the whole so called tantric tradition whether indian Jain or buddhist is identified with shamanism.

As i wrote before nobody needs the concept of a prehistoric shaman religion to explain why some religious traditions around the world use similar methods to induce religious experience, or acquire higher states of mind, like out of body experiences ability to see the future, or manipulate events like inducing rainfall etc. In all religions there will be some extraordinary people that acquire direct darshan of the devas, their experiences will of course be similar.

Spiritualseeker
30 May 2009, 04:45 PM
I see. I was reading today that Brahma and Vishnu were arguing and sometimes fight.... Arent they the same Ultimate reality or God himself. I dont understand stories like this. Am I misinterpreting them

Spiritualseeker
30 May 2009, 05:26 PM
Also I had question concerning an answer given to a question about worshipping many deities.

Here is the link http://www.hindubooks.org/hinduqa/Q_1_10/question7.htm



Question 7. If the Hindus really believe in one God, why do they worship a variety of gods like Siva, Devi, Vishau or Ganapati? Is it not tantamount to accepting many gods and godlings ? As If in approval of this tenet, don't we see these gods competing and conflicting with one another, if we an to believe the stories in our ?

Though Hinduism concedes the existence of several gods or deities, it accepts only one God, the Supreme. Out of these deities, Indra and others are actually ordinary souls like us, who rose to those positions in the cosmic scheme as a result of the extra. ordinary religious merit they had acquired in the previous cycle of creation.
It should be noted here that these deities who rule over certain aspects of the powers of nature, are like the officers of the government, who exercise their powers delegated to them by the Head of the State. Once their merit gets exhausted, they have got to vacate their positions and try for Moksha or liberation.

Next, we take up the case of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva. They are not three independent and separate deities, but three different aspects of the same Supreme God, while engaged in the processes of creation, sustenance and destruction of the universe, in that order. It is similar to the role played by the same person as the father at home, as the boss in the office and as a customer in a shop.


Okay the first question is concerning that some of the deities became deities through good merit ect... Isnt this the buddhist concept? That you can be reborn as a god due to some good merit but eventually you will lose the power and be stuck in samsara still? If this is the case then why do we worship the deities? Perhaps some of the deities have already lost their powers?


Also I wanted to know like I mentioned in the post before why some of the deities fault eachother and mainly how Vishnu and Brahma can fight eachother if they are the same reality or same Ultimate God?

Thank you

-juan

TatTvamAsi
30 May 2009, 07:48 PM
I see. I was reading today that Brahma and Vishnu were arguing and sometimes fight.... Arent they the same Ultimate reality or God himself. I dont understand stories like this. Am I misinterpreting them

It is interesting to see a muslim interested in Sanatana Dharma!

Regarding the stories you read (Puranas etc.) are meant to be allegorical in nature to depict a particular aspect of that Supreme Reality. I mean, some of these stories are so outlandish that any rational person will tend to eschew them immediately. However, one cannot read these stories with the mindset of "these are the events that happened xxxx number of years ago in this place etc.".

Remember, all of Hindu scriptures are there to motivate the person to take up sAdhanA (spiritual practice-->meditation/yoga etc.). In fact, Ramana Maharishi (one of the greatest rishis in the 20th Century) said that the scriptures are actually a hurdle and an impediment to achieving moksha (liberation).

These stories such as Brahma & Vishnu fighting seem puerile and that is because it is analogous to us humans looking at lionesses carrying their little ones by their mouths; this obviously seems 'cruel' but it is actually very gentle and the best way to transport the cubs! Our understanding, analysis, and cognition of certain events in creation is highly limited and therefore myopic. That is why most sages in India always stress on practice rather than reading the books! To most people, reading these books will only further confuse them due to their partial/limited understanding of the purport and intention behind each allegory or story.

Namaskar.

TatTvamAsi
30 May 2009, 07:52 PM
In short, Buddhism came from Hinduism. It is just a mildly varied version of the same philosophy and has NOTHING new to posit. Ignorant people, mostly outside of India, mistakenly think Buddhism is a separate "religion" or philosophy that is unique and arose separate from Hinduism! Nothing can be farther from the truth. Buddhism was "born" in India and is considered a nastika darshana of Hinduism.

Namaskar.


Also I had question concerning an answer given to a question about worshipping many deities.

Here is the link http://www.hindubooks.org/hinduqa/Q_1_10/question7.htm



Okay the first question is concerning that some of the deities became deities through good merit ect... Isnt this the buddhist concept? That you can be reborn as a god due to some good merit but eventually you will lose the power and be stuck in samsara still? If this is the case then why do we worship the deities? Perhaps some of the deities have already lost their powers?


Also I wanted to know like I mentioned in the post before why some of the deities fault eachother and mainly how Vishnu and Brahma can fight eachother if they are the same reality or same Ultimate God?

Thank you

-juan

Spiritualseeker
30 May 2009, 10:16 PM
Namaste TatTvamasi,

That was a beautiful explanation. What about the deities only are beings like us who have achieved great spiritual states? It seems like they will soon lose their abilities according to the link I had. This reminds me of the buddhist concept. And the buddhist concept is what lead me to ponder if there is even a Creator and GOD.

-Juan

atanu
31 May 2009, 12:41 AM
Also I had question concerning an answer given to a question about worshipping many deities.

Also I wanted to know like I mentioned in the post before why some of the deities fault eachother and mainly how Vishnu and Brahma can fight eachother if they are the same reality or same Ultimate God?

Thank you

-juan

Hello Juan,

Do you face dillemma such as below?

"I shall now eat two pastry cakes"
"No, No. I should not do that, I will have indigestion."

etc etc.

Who are these people fighting in you? Why should the same single mind entertain such conflicting doubts? When there is harmony among BrahmA, Vishnu and Rudra, then only the man (mind) knows its source.

Om

The totality of Hindu Dharma is woven with our experiences, very unlike the western religions, where most adherents have no clue as to what and where God?

Om

Spiritualseeker
31 May 2009, 06:26 AM
Lets ignore King's post.

I still seek clarification on the nature of the deities. I understand that our beliefs can be shaped by our experiences (which makes me want to try Hindu meditation and yoga and mantras), but I am very conflicted. I even had a dream yesterday in which a thought occured in the dream about perhaps accepting buddhism and practicing it and not believing in a Deity. Im not sure what has happend but I feel like the Deity I was worshipping the past 7 years as a muslim was nothing more than my mind.

:(


-juan

MahaHrada
31 May 2009, 09:00 AM
Lets ignore King's post.

I still seek clarification on the nature of the deities. I understand that our beliefs can be shaped by our experiences (which makes me want to try Hindu meditation and yoga and mantras), but I am very conflicted. I even had a dream yesterday in which a thought occured in the dream about perhaps accepting buddhism and practicing it and not believing in a Deity. Im not sure what has happend but I feel like the Deity I was worshipping the past 7 years as a muslim was nothing more than my mind.

:(
-juan

Most traditions in Hinduism are not primarily concerned with worshipping gods or one god, but are concerned with self knowledge. Self knowledge is the goal, Yoga , Meditation, worship are only the methods. In Monotheism God is somehow the goal. In Hinduism self knowledge is the Goal.

You can be a Hindu without worship of any god at all if you choose other methods of self knowledge like the path of self inquiry.

Gods are worshipped because they can help acquire self knowledge and also to acquire other benefits.

Some traditions put a greater emphasis on ritual worship and prayer others very little.

Even in Buddhism you will find prayers to the Buddhas and Bodhisattwas to help you in your search.

It is possible to find Hindu teachers that will be less concernend with prayer and worship and more with self knowledge and Yoga, you can find some Buddhist Traditions who put a greater empasis on ritual worship the these Hindus will. Of course this can be true also the other way around.

In the beginning you will find little difference between Buddhism and Yoga. The first 4 so called Dhyanas (meditative stages) in Buddhism are similarly practised in Hindu Yoga, differences in practice and doctrine occur later on. This is because Buddhism is one among the many Indian philosophical traditions which will all differ from each other in ceretain respects.

I think the problem for beginners is that Hinduism is not one Religion but a huge spiritual culture that is very ancient, it contains so many different Traditions that teach so many different paths that it is hard to find a beginning without becoming confused.

For instance i follow a tradition that not at all agrees with the notion that Hinduism is in essence monotheistic, like it is presented in the online books of shaiva siddhanta church that you have read. For us the Brahman is not a personal god but almost like the shunya of buddhism a backdrop of all that exists and it is alakh (without parts) and niranjan (stainless) therefore it is like a mathematical function or a physical law and cannot be worshipped and it is not a god who utters commands and writes books, creates the world etc. like for those that belive in a personal creator god.

When Shiva creates and withdraws the world he is not personal he is becoming one with a cosmic function, like a physical law. Every finite being is also shiva, and can by sadhana assume identity with that function, by dissolving everything else in his being except the fucntion of dissolution or creation. Then the individual has ceased or attained immortality and has merged into this divine function.

If the pralaya(destruction of all finite) occurs also the divine beings have to dissolve their characteristics and become reduced to potential functions existing in seed state only. The immortal law rta is greater than any finite element. The vedas, meaning knowledge or laws of nature, the lawful functions, for instance of how creation maintenance destruction is governend, or at least their blueprints, existed eternally.

This primal function has no name or form thats why we call the absolute Anama in our tradition which is the nameless. Trying to worship the nameless is likened in one of our shastras (holy books) to the effort to carry the space inside a house in a chest and bring it outside and release it there. Space is inside the house and it is outside, but it is the same space. Same is with the nameless brahman it is the same inside you as well as outside. Therefore it is impossible to worship. In our tradition belief in a personal monotheistic supreme infinite creator god or aspects of him that can be worshipped is regarded as supersitition. only something with name and form can be worshipped. And only something finite and imperfect will communicate in language, not a function of conciousness that is without parts and stainless. Only Self Knowledge will reveal the nameless.

Buddhism makes it easier for beginners because it is only one sampradaya of bharata dharma with one founder and one doctrine, and good teachers are easily available in the west.

Besides buddhist proselytize and are eager to accept new members into their faith while it is kind of hard to be accepted as a disciple of a traditional Hindu teacher.

The important question is whether one is interested in Self knowledge, truth and personal improvement, or rather wants to worship some god and belief some doctrine or holy book. When one strives for self knowledge whether a certain god, or a buddha, or nothing at all is worshipped is of secondary importance.

When worship and belief is more important than self knowledge, the method more important than the aim, people tend to become dangerous, aggressive and a threat to Society better avoid that.

devotee
31 May 2009, 11:00 AM
Excellent post, MahaHrada ! :)

Spiritualseeker
31 May 2009, 02:45 PM
Namaste MahaHrada,

I appreciate your response. It helped me understand a little. However I was sadden when I read this
Besides buddhist proselytize and are eager to accept new members into their faith while it is kind of hard to be accepted as a disciple of a traditional Hindu teacher.

It makes me think that hinduism is not for all people. It reminds me of when a Hindu told me that I need to stay with my religion that i grew up in and that "we dont want you to convert"

And another Hindu in high school who had called me a wannabe hindu.

Perhaps I should stop investigating hinduism if i would probably not be so accepted. Which is fine. Its sad though because it seemed like hinduism had a lot of offer me. but perhaps ill just stick with the next best thing i.e. Buddhism.

Thank you
-juan

Eastern Mind
31 May 2009, 03:36 PM
Namaste MahaHrada,

I appreciate your response. It helped me understand a little. However I was sadden when I read this

It makes me think that hinduism is not for all people. It reminds me of when a Hindu told me that I need to stay with my religion that i grew up in and that "we dont want you to convert"

And another Hindu in high school who had called me a wannabe hindu.

Perhaps I should stop investigating hinduism if i would probably not be so accepted. Which is fine. Its sad though because it seemed like hinduism had a lot of offer me. but perhaps ill just stick with the next best thing i.e. Buddhism.

Thank you
-juan

We Hindus (I do not speak for all) do want you to convert. But not out of money or business, or on a whim, or to get married. Nor do we want you to discontinue your quest in a moment of discouragement as I see in your case. We want you to convert because in your heart of hearts, you KNOW you`re a Hindu. Even before that,we`d like you to be a kind loving person who can help and uplift others with your soul shining through your eyes. A sincere Guru wants to see that the devotee is sincere, and really by belief is a Hindu. In my path to adoption (vs conversion) I had to study under the guru and his senior monks for several years. We wrote long essays, did tons of tests, had lots of feedback, and discussion first. Then only did it come time to make it official. That`s true conversion. Its not just some whim or ànother thing to do on a Sunday afternoon`. This is how converting to Hinduism is different. Other religions might take you in a day, but not us.

You WILL be accepted in this way. Of course there are immature souls who may not accept you, that`s just life. But one always has to consider the source when these things happen. I`ve been called a wannabe Hindu, a fake Hindu, been kicked out of a Hindu temple for being white etc. So. I`ve also been welcomed into homes, been stood beside by other devotees of God, smiled at, had namaskaram done to me, and otherwise been taken in wholeheartedly because these mature souls have recognised the same burning devotion in me that they have in themselves. I have been uplifting, and have been uplifted. Just keep coming back to it if you feel its right for you. As my Guru used to say to me when I had doubts: Proceed with Confidence!

Aum Namasivaya

MahaHrada
31 May 2009, 06:38 PM
Namaste MahaHrada,

I appreciate your response. It helped me understand a little. However I was sadden when I read this

It makes me think that hinduism is not for all people. It reminds me of when a Hindu told me that I need to stay with my religion that i grew up in and that "we dont want you to convert"

And another Hindu in high school who had called me a wannabe hindu.

Perhaps I should stop investigating hinduism if i would probably not be so accepted. Which is fine. Its sad though because it seemed like hinduism had a lot of offer me. but perhaps ill just stick with the next best thing i.e. Buddhism.

Thank you
-juan

I have experience with all three religions. I had a Muslim Sufi teacher from India from the Chisti Silsila, i have studied with buddhist teachers both from Mahayana and Vajrayana and with teachers from Natha and Kaula Parampara.

If you understand what i wrote,in the other posting, you will see that the important difference is not between two religions but between people who follow the ideal of self knowledge and those that do not follow it.

You have to overcome the important inward difference not the outward.
If you change only the outward form you have not really changed, you still cling to the same ignorance.

A ritual of conversion or act of conversion will not change your aim.
If one is a superstitious Muslim fool one will by conversion only become a superstitious Hindu Fool :)

One should first try to get rid of the foolishness then the question of religion or conversion will become secondary or vanish. The ancient saints from my tradition like Matsyendranath and Gorakhnath but also even in this century the modern Saints Pirs or Sadgurus are worshipped by Muslims Sufis as Pirs, by Hindus as Natha, and by Buddhist as Mahasiddhas. Still today they teach all Religions. Conversion is an evil custom. Reject ignorance, embrace wisdom. Reject Conversions, embrace Learning. Reject outward Religion, embrace the inner truth. These virtues will make you a follower of Sanatana Dharma, no matter what sect or religion you follow, not some Document that say you are a hindu now because of this or that outward reason, or by ritual of conversion. You cannot eat a painted bowl of rice.

devotee
31 May 2009, 09:00 PM
It makes me think that hinduism is not for all people. It reminds me of when a Hindu told me that I need to stay with my religion that i grew up in and that "we dont want you to convert"

And another Hindu in high school who had called me a wannabe hindu.

Perhaps I should stop investigating hinduism if i would probably not be so accepted. Which is fine. Its sad though because it seemed like hinduism had a lot of offer me. but perhaps ill just stick with the next best thing i.e. Buddhism.


Namaste SS,

You are most welcome to "Hinduism" (Is it really an "ism" ?). And let me tell you once for all : no one has right to tell you that you can't or should not embrace Hinduism or for that matter any religion. Hinduism is the only religion which accepts all paths as valid. You choose the path that suits you & not get influenced by what some people say or don't say. Are you interested in your spiritual upliftment or what people say about you ? Does it really matter what some people think or say about you ? Will this thinking lead to the Truth which must be known ?

And for God's sake, please don't ever assume that all Hindus are saints ... there are rogues in all societies & Hindu society is no exception. Such people must be ignored or at best be pitied upon for their sick thoughts. Concentrate on the Path ... the Truth ... don't get deterred by some thorns on the way. There is no path where you get only flower petals welcoming you. The True Path to the Truth was never easy, anyway.

If you are interested in a rousing welcome for conversion, then certainly Christianity & Islam are better than Hinduism. I am sorry, if it disappoints you. :)

OM

atanu
01 June 2009, 01:13 AM
One should first try to get rid of the foolishness then the question of religion or conversion will become secondary or vanish. The ancient saints from my tradition like Matsyendranath and Gorakhnath but also even in this century the modern Saints Pirs or Sadgurus are worshipped by Muslims Sufis as Pirs, by Hindus as Natha, and by Buddhist as Mahasiddhas. Still today they teach all Religions. Conversion is an evil custom. Reject ignorance, embrace wisdom. Reject Conversions, embrace Learning. Reject outward Religion, embrace the inner truth. These virtues will make you a follower of Sanatana Dharma, no matter what sect or religion you follow, not some Document that say you are a hindu now because of this or that outward reason, or by ritual of conversion. You cannot eat a painted bowl of rice.


Namah. Namah.

It just occurred that once one joins God's party, there cannot be any conversion at all. Where can one go? To what else one can convert?

Of course one can change political parties like one changes one's clothes.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
01 June 2009, 03:16 AM
Lets ignore King's post.

I still seek clarification on the nature of the deities. I understand that our beliefs can be shaped by our experiences (which makes me want to try Hindu meditation and yoga and mantras), but I am very conflicted. I even had a dream yesterday in which a thought occured in the dream about perhaps accepting buddhism and practicing it and not believing in a Deity. Im not sure what has happend but I feel like the Deity I was worshipping the past 7 years as a muslim was nothing more than my mind.

-juan

Hello Juan,

It is true that whatever you see or worship is nothing more than your mind. But do we know the Mind? The Mind is the Universe. It shapes itself as the Universe, but we assume that the mind is in that small fleshy ball called brain.

Actually your body and my body and all bodies are in the Mind.

--------
Now whatever you see as gross and fleshy have their subtle counterparts in subtle universe -- that we will undertand better if we study and contemplate on our own waking, dream, and deep sleep states. You can reflect as to how, in absence of sunlight, your dream has many coloured objects? Wherefrom the light has come? How you see things much bigger than yourself in dream?

What you see in dream is also the mind, in its subtle form. Brihadaraynaka Upanishad terms it as Lord's subtle body.

----------------

In our waking state we take teachers. Do we not? To learn anything we accept Gurus. Do we not? Deities are such but they are subtle and have infinitely more power. Deities, like Rudra or Varuna are called quickeners in Veda. They transport you to the realm where you will never reach unaided.

Do not have any doubt on this account. Take up any deity that appeals to you most and accept Him/Her as the guiding light. Pray daily, regarding the chosen deity as the full, as we say: Guru BrahmA, Guru Vishnu, Guru Mahesvara.

If required, the Deity will lead you to a living Guru. Have patience and stick with the Deity for at least one year.

Best Wishes.

Om

Spiritualseeker
01 June 2009, 07:06 AM
Namaste SS,

You are most welcome to "Hinduism" (Is it really an "ism" ?). And let me tell you once for all : no one has right to tell you that you can't or should not embrace Hinduism or for that matter any religion. Hinduism is the only religion which accepts all paths as valid. You choose the path that suits you & not get influenced by what some people say or don't say. Are you interested in your spiritual upliftment or what people say about you ? Does it really matter what some people think or say about you ? Will this thinking lead to the Truth which must be known ?

And for God's sake, please don't ever assume that all Hindus are saints ... there are rogues in all societies & Hindu society is no exception. Such people must be ignored or at best be pitied upon for their sick thoughts. Concentrate on the Path ... the Truth ... don't get deterred by some thorns on the way. There is no path where you get only flower petals welcoming you. The True Path to the Truth was never easy, anyway.

If you are interested in a rousing welcome for conversion, then certainly Christianity & Islam are better than Hinduism. I am sorry, if it disappoints you. :)

OM


Namaste Devotee,

Thank you that is a beautiful path. Your right I shouldnt worry about what others think. I was just wondering if even the Deities would accept one as a convert. But I guess they would judging by your post and others.

This clears up a lot.



In our waking state we take teachers. Do we not? To learn anything we accept Gurus. Do we not? Deities are such but they are subtle and have infinitely more power. Deities, like Rudra or Varuna are called quickeners in Veda. They transport you to the realm where you will never reach unaided.

Do not have any doubt on this account. Take up any deity that appeals to you most and accept Him/Her as the guiding light. Pray daily, regarding the chosen deity as the full, as we say: Guru BrahmA, Guru Vishnu, Guru Mahesvara.

If required, the Deity will lead you to a living Guru. Have patience and stick with the Deity for at least one year.

Best Wishes.

Om


I see. So maybe I will keep dedication to Lord Shiva and Lord Ganesha. Since I had a dream of them. I will stay patient and keep reading about them and their attributes and make worship to them. Yesterday I did a Visualization of Lord Shiva while chanting Om Namaha Shivaya. I am hoping doing such things will bring me close to his holy presence.

Thank you :)
-juan

Spiritualseeker
03 June 2009, 08:11 PM
Hello all,

What works are best for me to read to learn about Lord Shiva? Also are there any books specifically listing ways to supplicate, pray to, mantras, and rituals in honor of Lord shiva?

saidevo
03 June 2009, 10:11 PM
Namaste Juan.

Here are some resources to learn about and pray to Shiva:

Books:
Lord Dhakshinamurti: Source of Spiritual Knowledge (Dayananda Saraswati)(215 KB)
http://www.avgsatsang.org/hhpsds/pdf/Source_of_Spiritual_Knowledge.pdf

Lord Siva and His Worship (Sivananda) (183 KB)
http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/lordsiva.pdf

Shiva - the Ascetic God (Madhuri Guin) (281 KB)
http://www.dollsofindia.com/acrobat/shiva.pdf

Worship:
Shiva Stotras (hymns)
http://www.astrojyoti.com/shivamp3list.htm

Shaivate and ShAkta Websites:
http://www.shaivam.org
http://www.shivashakti.com/index.html

Please note that it is neither easily possible nor necessary to have read/learnt the contents of all the resources above to learn about and worship Shiva. All it requires is to be conscious of Shiva in all your activities and have a persistent mental image of his sacred form at all times. At prayer time, you might try to sing along with the record of a stotra and thus eventually learn to sing a hymn with the right pronounciation.

In bhakti, devotion, the bhAva, mental inclination is the most important. Hinduism allows you to treat your favourite god as your father (the most common role), boss, friend or even spouse!

hindustallion
04 June 2009, 08:52 AM
Namastey Spiritualseeker,
It looks like you are some way special. Most of the people in west and middle-east are covered with their own culture that they do not sometimes even hear about Vedic Culture. It requires a self understanding research to come to the foot of Vedic Culture. But It seems that the Gods of Vedic Culture had come to you. Its very rare, that you said you never even thought about Hinduism before.

I have a blog regarding Lord Siva. As I am a Lord Siva devotee, my grandfather(who is a saint now) gave me a book called 'MahaSivaPuranam', and Im translating it from Malayalam to English. You can find the stories at my blog http://sivapurana.blogspot.com/ ...the stories are not finished. I am still working on it.

Dhanyawad
Yadu

Spiritualseeker
04 June 2009, 08:56 PM
Namaste Juan.

Here are some resources to learn about and pray to Shiva:

Books:
Lord Dhakshinamurti: Source of Spiritual Knowledge (Dayananda Saraswati)(215 KB)
http://www.avgsatsang.org/hhpsds/pdf..._Knowledge.pdf (http://www.avgsatsang.org/hhpsds/pdf/Source_of_Spiritual_Knowledge.pdf)

Lord Siva and His Worship (Sivananda) (183 KB)
http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/lordsiva.pdf

Shiva - the Ascetic God (Madhuri Guin) (281 KB)
http://www.dollsofindia.com/acrobat/shiva.pdf

Worship:
Shiva Stotras (hymns)
http://www.astrojyoti.com/shivamp3list.htm

Shaivate and ShAkta Websites:
http://www.shaivam.org (http://www.shaivam.org/)
http://www.shivashakti.com/index.html

Please note that it is neither easily possible nor necessary to have read/learnt the contents of all the resources above to learn about and worship Shiva. All it requires is to be conscious of Shiva in all your activities and have a persistent mental image of his sacred form at all times. At prayer time, you might try to sing along with the record of a stotra and thus eventually learn to sing a hymn with the right pronounciation.

In bhakti, devotion, the bhAva, mental inclination is the most important. Hinduism allows you to treat your favourite god as your father (the most common role), boss, friend or even spouse!


Thanks for the great material. I started reading the source of spiritual knowledge. Not quite finished yet but it speaks to me deeply. Its interesting that you say I dont have to read all the contents to worship Shiva. I am now into direct experience and less scripture study (though im sure it still is important in hinduism). I want to know for sure that these beings such as Lord Shiva really do exist. Hopefully I can touch him through worship and mantras.

Thank you for the information I look foward to reading the other material.



Namastey Spiritualseeker,
It looks like you are some way special. Most of the people in west and middle-east are covered with their own culture that they do not sometimes even hear about Vedic Culture. It requires a self understanding research to come to the foot of Vedic Culture. But It seems that the Gods of Vedic Culture had come to you. Its very rare, that you said you never even thought about Hinduism before.

I have a blog regarding Lord Siva. As I am a Lord Siva devotee, my grandfather(who is a saint now) gave me a book called 'MahaSivaPuranam', and Im translating it from Malayalam to English. You can find the stories at my blog http://sivapurana.blogspot.com/ ...the stories are not finished. I am still working on it.

Dhanyawad
Yadu


I dont think im too special friend. I used to criticize and belittle the Hindu faith. I was ignorant of what Hinduism teaches (and still am very ignorant to what it teaches) but now i see it as a very complex and rich faith. And it is a possible choice for me as I look through some of the spiritual paths of Buddhism, Taoism, and Hinduism is yet another which I am considering. Though I havent officially made my decision between the 3 I am though somewhat drawn to hinduism.

I checked out the blog it is very interesting. Could you please explain to me about those scripture stories about the gods are those to be interpreted literally or are they metaphoric?

Thank you :)

-Juan

hindustallion
05 June 2009, 05:44 AM
Well Juan, Even though I am a Siva Devotee, i believe in the concept of Formless Supreme Power, NirakaraRupa ParaBrahma. I mentioned it on the first story of "The evolution of the Universe". As we know Siva,Visnu are more Human like forms,they maybe not in that way. Ancient Rishis may picturised them in Human forms to make it easy for us to understand. Like they picturise Ravana as ten headed to make us understand he has the power of ten-heads. So interpreting it literally maybe easy to understand. But the truth and essense maybe different. Many truths can be find out from even a single sentence of scriptures if it taken metophorically.
All these doesn't mean what we consider a history like Mahabharath or Ramayana are just stories. These incidents might happened in other ways which maybe pretty complicated to understand.

Dhanyawad
Yadu

Spiritualseeker
05 June 2009, 07:48 AM
Very interesting. Well I was looking for a hindu bookstore online to purchase a work to get me started. However, I ran into a site in which a questioner was asking how to convince his friend (who worships Lord Shiva) that Vishnu should be worshipped. This confused me, because if they are the same Supreme Deity why do Hindus try to convert or convince eachother that its better to worship another deity?

-Juan

P.S. what books should i purchase?

hindustallion
05 June 2009, 09:05 AM
Check this out.. there are so many stuffs related to Hinduism sold out in these links
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/links_to_other_websites.htm

Well, i totally don't understand the situation you are talking about. Its totally immature. Every Gods we believe are one supreme power. In some scriptures we can see Visnu, Siva and BrahmaDev discussing abt it like "afterall we are all one". And it is the first time i ever heard that someone try to convince to worship another daity, Juan. Its very rare.
But if you say that second person is a Lord Siva devotee, then its acceptable. Bcoz, Lord Siva will grant wishes quickly and will curse or punish quickly. We can see soo many people ending up debt or poverty worshipping Lord Siva. If the worshipping is not done properly, then it will be better to be prepared for a curse. Wheras, Lord Visnu will try to look the bright side of the people. This doesn't mean anyone who worships Lord Siva is in trouble. The Chola Emperor RajaRaja was a LordSiva devotee and he spent his life being in the riches of palace. We can see paintings of him serving Lord Siva(drawn by his supervision).
So the guy might be concerned abt his friend, so he might try converting him into Lord Visnu devotee.
I am a Lord Siva devotee though. It is also written in my Jataka.
If you know the guy, try to tell him that don't force the other guy to convert his devotion. He might be comfortable with praying Siva like I do even though I know its a risk.
And.........
I don't know what I said was superstition or theories or fact. I just said what I know. Afterall, I am just 16....
Dhanyawad
Yadu

Spiritualseeker
05 June 2009, 01:26 PM
Thank you hindustallion. THroughout the day is it alright for me to visualize Lord shiva and recite the mantra "Om Namaha Shivaya"? Are there any good visualizations for Lord Ganesha?

Eastern Mind
05 June 2009, 05:35 PM
Spiritual seeker:

Just a thought. Where are you in the US. Perhaps we can recommend a Siva od Ganesha temple for you to go to. if the temple is operating according to correct tradition, you should be able to feel their presence better there by meditating in a quiet place or in front of the altar.
Aum Namasivaya

Spiritualseeker
05 June 2009, 07:01 PM
Hello eastern mind

I think I found a temple here. I will be going this wednesday coming up. the person told me there is a Shiva and Ganesha representation there. He told me to go there and see what happends. But if you have other suggestions I am in altamonte Springs florida.

Eastern Mind
05 June 2009, 11:32 PM
Namaste:

A representation is different from a murthi (statue) that has had the vibration of the God put into it through a correct ritual with the correct devotion, so I would be unable to tell unless I were to go there. Even then it would be only my feeling. But in the neighbourhood from what I've read on here, this thing called the internet, the Siva temple in Atlanta sounds like it might be the right place. Of course, I'm biased to South indian style temples normally.

Aum Namasivaya

PS: You could also watch the youtube video of the Siva puja at the Kauai Ashram. That might just do it for you.

hindustallion
06 June 2009, 07:19 AM
I'm only familiar with South Indian style of temples. Especially that of Kerala. I've never been anywhere outside South India(How shame!). The concept of 'Sri Kovil', i think, is the difference in SOuth Indian temple from that of others. No one except priests are allowed to enter the Sri Kovil and they donot allow worshippers to touch the deity. But what I understand from films and my parent's account, the North Indian temples give more freedom to worshippers. Temples in SOuth India are restricted especially that of Kerala. Temples like Guruvayur, SabariMala etc have restriction on even the clothes that the worshippers wear. I think this restriction came to keep the deity pure. I've been visiting only south Indian types of temples for the first 13 years of my life and when i visited ISKCON temple, i witnessed an entirely different way of Puja.
Dhanyawad

Spiritualseeker
06 June 2009, 10:02 AM
Im checking out some of the videos on youtube. I am trying to get motivated to go to a temple today. By the way should I get Bhagavad gita with explanation from a Swami? If i were to become hindu i would want to devote myself to Shiva, but since Krishna is another manifestation of God do you think the work would benefit me?

P.S. I got a Tattoo of OM on my chest. Do you think this is okay?

hindustallion
06 June 2009, 11:27 AM
Here is a link to my youtube channel..............http://www.youtube.com/user/hindustallion
i don't have any videos that help,but my friends and channels dat i subscribed to will definitely be a help for ya.
Of Course, There are plenty of Bhagavad Gita with explanation.The only Bhagavad Gita with explanation i have is of Malayalam language. Its been explained by Swami GnananandaSaraswati.
There is no problem reading BhagavatGita even if you are a Lord Siva devotee. It will definitely benifit ya. And don't forget to read MahaSivaPurana(it will help ya if u going 2 bcome a Lord Siva devotee).
I also love to tattoo a Aum in my Biceps but a friend of my who is a tattoo artisit said that its a risk. Some tattoo artist may use pins used for others, it will cause skin diseaeses. But don't worry, its only a probablilty. I use hennah to use it as a tattoo on my biceps. Hennah is free from skin diseaes but it only stays for 1 or 2 weeks and is not as dark as a normal tattoo.

hindustallion
06 June 2009, 11:48 AM
Other disadvantage of religious tattoo is(i forgot to say it in d last post)....i don't know abt ur country but in India, communists, Jihadis or others who wanna attack Hindus look onto these and attack. The attacks has been reduced in d past few years but its totally mature to be aware of it. But u have nothing 2 worry, ur Aum is in chest, right?. Tattooing it in visible areas might motivate these anti-Hindu jerks to attack us.

Spiritualseeker
06 June 2009, 02:29 PM
Alright so I went to a temple. I spoke to a man not sure if he was priest but he seemed to be the one doing invocations and giving people what appeared to be oil and place the red dye on the foreheads of devotees. I told him about my dream he told me its a good thing. I asked him to teach me a bit about Lord Shiva. Which he did. I casually asked him if people convert to hinduism he said no there is no need. All paths lead to god. I was disappointed he said that. But he told me if i so wished I could devote myself to Lord Shiva and Lord Ganesha. A couple people there seemed to look at me like I didnt belong there. I was overall a little uncomfortable.

-juan

Eastern Mind
06 June 2009, 05:03 PM
Alright so I went to a temple. I spoke to a man not sure if he was priest but he seemed to be the one doing invocations and giving people what appeared to be oil and place the red dye on the foreheads of devotees. I told him about my dream he told me its a good thing. I asked him to teach me a bit about Lord Shiva. Which he did. I casually asked him if people convert to hinduism he said no there is no need. All paths lead to god. I was disappointed he said that. But he told me if i so wished I could devote myself to Lord Shiva and Lord Ganesha. A couple people there seemed to look at me like I didnt belong there. I was overall a little uncomfortable.

-juan

I'm glad you went. Sounds like you got a lot out of it. Yes, he was probably the priest. Some temples are big enough to have hired priests. Others have volunteer pandits only. in the northern style, the priest is more likely to place substances on your forehead. In the south you do it yourself. He is correct that there is no general need to convert. At least I would agree. However, on a personal level the devotee might feel a NEED to officially convert, which was my case. Regardless, there are dozens of opinions on the matter.

There is always someone who will look at you as if you're not belonging. You're a stranger. Haven't you been in the situation where there'esa stranger in your town? Its normal, and nothing to get worked upo avout. I still get it even though I've been going to the same temple for 30 years.

Aum Namasivaya

Spiritualseeker
06 June 2009, 06:10 PM
Thanks for the response eastern mind. I think your right. I think one of the reasons i fear rejection is i have social anxiety disorder. So its all in my head and ego. However, it was a decent experience. The priest invited me back monday that i can do something with milk..... not sure what that means but I guess as an offering to the gods. I probably wont be able to make it because ill be tired after work monday but we'll see.

Easternmind do you mind helping me perhaps make a daily practice? What I mean is help me compile a set of practices to do daily in the morning to help find the Shiva in me and Serve the outward shiva. Like mantras etc... should I do any visualizations? How should I meditate?

I am trying to see if hinduism is for me but I have an attraction to buddhism aswell. But what i notice is buddhist accept the gods of hindus as real. They just dont emphasize serving the gods. So the point is if they accept the gods then perhaps I should look into worshipping them.

Many thanks

OM Namah Sivaya!

Eastern Mind
06 June 2009, 06:34 PM
Namaste again:

I am certainly no authority. I myself don't do a lot of daily sadhana. All I can do is regurgitate another's advice. Here are a few pointers I've heard about but don't practice much.

Pick a regular time and place.

Start small. Get a picture of Ganesha. If you can get to an India store, purchase some kind of aarti lamp. If not a candle will do. Make the place clean, and reserved for one thing only. Don't go all out. Increase your time slowly.

For example, read one quote a day and reflect on that. Do a simple aarti to the picture. Sit and breathe rhythmically for 5 to 10 minutes.

Thats it. One thing about Hindus I have learned. Because of the belief in reincarnation, we see development over lifetimes, so wer tend to be more patient than practitioners of Abrahamic relogions who see this lifetime as a one shot affair. Slowly as your mind adjusts, you can increase the time. In the beginning CONSISTENCY is of the utmost importance.

Aum Namasivaya

Spiritualseeker
06 June 2009, 08:01 PM
Namaste

Excellent sounds good. In addition to that I just purchased Loving Ganesha. I found it for 16 bucks on amazon. I will learn some mantras from there and do some visualizations. Please pray for me :)

So I take it you are devoted to Lord Shiva and Lord Ganesha? What attracted you to these deities?

Peace
Om Namaha Sivaya

Spiritualseeker
06 June 2009, 08:04 PM
BTW can someone tell me how Buddha is related to buddhism? according to buddhism Buddha did not talk about God. Instead he accepted dependent origination and rejected much of hinduism is this true? When I went to the temple today I saw an image of Sri Buddha. So, is he truely a manifestation of God?

-Juan

yajvan
06 June 2009, 08:08 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté EM and Spiritualseeker,

Let me offer a point of view for your kind consideration.

In Vasișțha's Yoga ( the conversation of Vasișțha with Śrī Rāmaḥ) he says to Śrī Rāmaḥ " there are 4 gatekeepers at the entrance to the realm of Mokṣa (Liberation or enlightenment), they are self-control, spirit of enquiry, contentment, and good company ( satsaṅga)"

" He who wears the armor of self control is not harmed by sorrows." Enquiry, the study of the srūti and smṛti he says " the intelligence becomes keen and is able to realize the Supreme";

With Contentment - "one does not crave" and one that is not content in the SELF will be subjected to sorrow. Satsaṅga or the company of the wise and enlightened "enlarges ones intelligence" and "is superior to all other forms of religious practice like charity, austerity, pilgrimage, rites, etc". He concludes by saying " if you cannot practice all 4 , practice one."

When one thinks of their daily routine these 4 are most useful:

Self-control - ones meditation and practice; Why so? Pure awareness is to be known; Taking time out to refresh the mind and body.
Spirit of enquiry - Self-study and the notion of insight via reading; Feeding the intellect that supports new information.
Contentment - a state of being sugesting being happy with your conditions; make them better ? Sure. Contentment suggests that there is no undue stress and strain of 'If I only had... If I only could' - then I'd be happy'.
and good company ( satsaṅga) - being around and talking with people that share the values of the Spirit. Perhaps HDF may contribute to this notion....just a thought.

praṇām

Eastern Mind
06 June 2009, 09:47 PM
Namaste

Excellent sounds good. In addition to that I just purchased Loving Ganesha. I found it for 16 bucks on amazon. I will learn some mantras from there and do some visualizations. Please pray for me

So I take it you are devoted to Lord Shiva and Lord Ganesha? What attracted you to these deities?

Peace
Om Namaha Sivaya

Excellent choice of books, but then I;m biased as you already know. Yes I am a Saivite. If you read my diary of a pilgrimage posted on here, you can get a sense of why I am attracted to these two, plus Murugan.

Aum Namasivaya

Spiritualseeker
06 June 2009, 10:26 PM
Namaste Yajvan,

That is beautiful advice. So in regards to the meditation I can simply do awareness of the breath?

I think these are some sufficient subjects to reflect on. I also purchased Bhagavad Gita Explained. I will be listening to that. It is an audio book and is 19 hours long! I look foward to getting the wisdom out of that.

I wish to learn a bit more about the rituals done at the temple because I was out of place when devotees were doing ritualistic invocation and circumbulations.

I also want to increase in my visualization of the deities. This is a practice that I enjoy in Tibetan Buddhist scene. However, I am sure it can be just as powerful visualizing Lord Shiva and Lord Ganesha.


Peace
Om Namah Sivaya!
-juan

Spiritualseeker
07 June 2009, 03:38 PM
Namaste,

Also if I got a statue a small one of Ganesha and Lord Shiva how do I make offerings? What can I do? Can I light candles? How do I draw the Power of the Deity into the image?

Thanks
-Juan

Eastern Mind
07 June 2009, 05:39 PM
Namaste,

Also if I got a statue a small one of Ganesha and Lord Shiva how do I make offerings? What can I do? Can I light candles? How do I draw the Power of the Deity into the image?

Thanks
-Juan

Wow, you do get at things quickly. Is the statue metal, stone, or plastic? The reason I am inquiring is that different substances hold energy in different ways. Hopefully the statue is either stone or metal. One thing you can do is to take your statues to the temple you went to and ask the priest to bless them. If it is a south Indian style place, he will probably put them close to the existing ones at the temple. You could leave them there for a week or so, and the vibration of the existing murthis (word for statue that has been made alive) would sort of rub off, in a mystical sense. All of this, again, REALLY depends on the nature of the temple and priest you are visiting.

If you took Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, and called them Jerusulamism, then that's a good analogy for Hinduism. It is vast.

In the book you are reading there is a simple Ganesha puja in it, so you can follow that. But in reality its in your heart.

Aum Namasivaya

In jest: I expect another question within the day. Yajvanji can help a lot too.

Spiritualseeker
07 June 2009, 05:45 PM
hehe. Well I am not planning on becomming a hindu. I really have no idea if GOD exist. I doubt his existence. I have apulled attraction to Buddhism that rejects a Creator. Yet part of me wonders if Hinduism is indeed correct. I am desperate. I do not have statues yet. I was just asking to know. Sometimes throughout the day I recite Om Namah Sivaya or OM Gam Ganapatye Namaha. Though I really dont know if Lord Shiva exist or if even Lord Ganesha Exist. I am lost confused and wondering if GOd is real or if its just all in my mind.

yajvan
07 June 2009, 05:46 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté Spiritualseeker


Namaste Yajvan,

That is beautiful advice. So in regards to the meditation I can simply do awareness of the breath?

I think these are some sufficient subjects to reflect on. I also purchased Bhagavad Gita Explained. I will be listening to that. It is an audio book and is 19 hours long! I look foward to getting the wisdom out of that.

I wish to learn a bit more about the rituals done at the temple because I was out of place when devotees were doing ritualistic invocation and circumbulations.

I also want to increase in my visualization of the deities. This is a practice that I enjoy in Tibetan Buddhist scene. However, I am sure it can be just as powerful visualizing Lord Shiva and Lord Ganesha.

Peace
Om Namah Sivaya!
-juan

Regarding meditation - IMHO , yes, a good place to start is with the breath. This post may help ( as there are others within this set of posts youmay find of use):
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=18322&postcount=3 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=18322&postcount=3)
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=18381&postcount=7 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=18381&postcount=7)

A simple thing like the awareness of one's own breath is very useful and the experience is noticable.


Regarding study - starting with the Bhāgavad gītā is good, as it is considered the cream of the veda-s. Then let your interest perhaps lead you to other sources of knowledge. This post may be of some use:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1946&highlight=ocean+knowledge

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=15712&postcount=27

For rituals - you can goggle on puja-s and that will be a start. Some ideas of customs and traditions can be found here: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3656

praṇām

Spiritualseeker
07 June 2009, 05:57 PM
Namaste!

I love reading your post yajvan. Thank you for the response. So If I understand the meditation technique in the links it is basically breath in (hold breath as long as comfortable) then breath out (hold breath as long as comfortable)?

I have just started listening to the intro to Bhagavad Gita. It seems like it will be complex but the commentary seems like it will be good. I am hoping it will teach me to realize that there truely is a Deity or God that created me and wishes for my wellbeing. Because now I am lost. but perhaps I can also find peace in being lost :)

-Juan

Eastern Mind
07 June 2009, 06:07 PM
hehe. Well I am not planning on becomming a hindu. I really have no idea if GOD exist. I doubt his existence. I have apulled attraction to Buddhism that rejects a Creator. Yet part of me wonders if Hinduism is indeed correct. I am desperate. I do not have statues yet. I was just asking to know. Sometimes throughout the day I recite Om Namah Sivaya or OM Gam Ganapatye Namaha. Though I really dont know if Lord Shiva exist or if even Lord Ganesha Exist. I am lost confused and wondering if GOd is real or if its just all in my mind.

Oops. Sorry I misread your post. I read too fast.

Aum

Spiritualseeker
07 June 2009, 06:25 PM
no problem easternmind.

Wow yajvan Hinduism truely is a vast ocean of knowledge. There are many things for me to study and read according to the other links.

yajvan
07 June 2009, 07:45 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté Spiritualseeker

Namaste!

I love reading your post yajvan. Thank you for the response. So If I understand the meditation technique in the links it is basically breath in (hold breath as long as comfortable) then breath out (hold breath as long as comfortable)? Juan
There are two offerings. Both are considered āṇavopāya practice :


āṇu अणु = fine , minute , atomic is known as 'atom' - which is another name for the individual jiva. This upāya is the means whereby the āṇu or the individual jiva uses his own kāraṇa-s or instruments i.e. senses, prana and manas for self-realization. It includes disciplines concerning the regulation of prana, japa, concentration, meditation, etc.Lets talk of the breathing and start simple. First, sit comfortably. Cross your legs, or don't , the key is sitting comfortably with an upright posture. Just comfortable and easy to breathe.

We then close the eyes ( so far so good eh?) and just breathe in through the nose then out through the nose. We just take our time and breath in, breath out , and we just observe this process. We do not get ahead of the breath , or behind it, or expect the next breath to act in one way or the other, we just watch/monitor the breath come in and out. We're just easy about the whole thing. That is, we expect nothing.


We will then notice over time the body and mind settling down. Yet we do not push or force the mind to do anything except watch the breath. If the mind goes off on a thought or an idea - we do not whip the mind back, but just notice we are not watching the breath and then bring our attention back to doing this.
Now how long do we do this? First start out with a time you can do consistently, day in and day out. If you can do this twice a day, that would be great. Yet we do not obsess about it. But whatever you start with you stay with. Well begun is half done, my teacher would always say.

My recommendation - please consider doing this for a week. Then come back to this post and let us know what you experienced. We then will go on to the second part of this conversation , then on to kumbaka. If you do not feel comfortable talking about your experiences, then email me and you can offer your experiences that way, as it is a personal thing, yes?

Note that this approach is offered in the 24th kārikā found in the Vijañāna Bhairava. I take no ownership of its origin... I am just the plumbing, bringing some water to one that may wish to drink.

praṇām

saidevo
08 June 2009, 12:52 AM
Namaste Juan.



hehe. Well I am not planning on becomming a hindu. I really have no idea if GOD exist. I doubt his existence. I have apulled attraction to Buddhism that rejects a Creator. Yet part of me wonders if Hinduism is indeed correct. I am desperate. I do not have statues yet. I was just asking to know. Sometimes throughout the day I recite Om Namah Sivaya or OM Gam Ganapatye Namaha. Though I really dont know if Lord Shiva exist or if even Lord Ganesha Exist. I am lost confused and wondering if GOd is real or if its just all in my mind.


I wrote the following post some days back but did not post it since it seemed you have chosen the path of devotion to Hindu gods (possibly due to your dream); at the same time, I can understand your vacillation about a deity being just creation of the mind and so it might be better to practise meditation instead of wasting time on devotional rituals. I see that you are only 23 years old, so such lingering doubts are common. However, you might consider the following summary:

All spiritual seekers of whatever religion invariably go through the path of devotion (bhakti yoga) before they enter the path of knowledge of Self-Realization. When you were a Muslim you would surely have associated a symbol with your God, Allah. A Christian primarily worships Jesus, a Buddhist Buddha and the followers of other religions too will surely have an association with their godhead when it comes to worship.

Hinduism allows you to have one or more such associations with the divine and worship a deity of your choice: a deity that is closer to your heart depending on your mental and spiritual temperament. Thus we have several personal deities in Hinduism: Shiva, VishNu, BrahmA, their consorts Uma (aka PArvati), Lakshmi and Sarasvati respectively, KrishNa, Rama, and then Shiva's sons Ganesha and Muruga--to name a few. There are devotions and traditions strongly attached to these Gods. You can also worship more than one God, or many gods with a preferred personal God and so on. This kind of variety in devotion makes a devotee know, feel and realize that there is a God who is there to take care of his/her worldly and spiritual needs, and regulates the devotee in the general and specific provisions of dharma required of him/her in the worldly life.

Although a Hindu worships so many Gods, he/she knows that he/she worships only a form of the one God, Brahman the omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, infinite and eternal Absolute Truth. Once a devotee is firmly fixed in the stage of devotion, it would be easy to ascend to the stage of Self-Realization, which is the ultimate realization that even that one God is not different from one's own soul, Atman.

The Hindu PurANas and itihAsas (epics) are broadly classified into those oriented towards the three Gods of the Hindu Trinity. Some are also oriented towards Shakti (PArvati) and some to the second generation Gods such as Ganesha, Muruga, KrishNa and Rama. Thus, if VishNu is the hero of one PurANa, Shiva and BrahmA would naturally play second fiddle to him and vice versa, so there is nothing wrong with the stories of the Gods competing and even fighting with one another, so long as the story is an allegorical pointer to a greater spiritual truth.

From what you have written about your spiritual inclinations, since you have lingering doubts about a deity being just a creation of the mind, the yoga path of knowledge towards Self-Realization could be better suited for you. Still, if you would prefer devotion towards one or more Gods, the best way could be 'to love them all' despite the problems that crop up for you by reading stories about them. This might be possible by having the right mindset: that whether the stories happened or not, the author/compiler of the PurANas were far advanced souls who knew better than us; that there is a purpose behind the purAnic incidents which may not be known to me immediately; that all the purAnic Gods are just forms of Brahman, so when human egos clash, why not the divine ones?

Conversion to Hinduism is not prohibited or unwelcome, but know that this would put you in a tradition: no one is converted to become a Hindu Advaitic sage straightway. As an alternative, you can, however, experiment with your spiritual pursuits for as long as you wish, before you really need to be fitted into a religion.

saidevo
08 June 2009, 12:58 AM
Namaste Juan.

Here is a good booklet on the practice of meditation:
Yoga, Meditation and Japa Sadhana (Krishnananda)
http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/ymj/Yoga,%20Meditation%20and%20Japa%20Sadhana%20by%20Swami%20Krishnananda.pdf

and a useful Website:
http;//www.swamij.com

Spiritualseeker
08 June 2009, 08:21 PM
My recommendation - please consider doing this for a week. Then come back to this post and let us know what you experienced. We then will go on to the second part of this conversation , then on to kumbaka. If you do not feel comfortable talking about your experiences, then email me and you can offer your experiences that way, as it is a personal thing, yes?


Namaste!

Alright I have started. Last night I sat in meditation perhaps 10 minutes. This morning I did a 20 minute meditation. Also I did Om Gam Ganapatiye namaha while visualizing Lord Ganesha though this really has nothing to do with the breath meditation. Anyways tonight before going to bed ill do 10 to 15 minutes of meditation. I will try to keep it up :)



I wrote the following post some days back but did not post it since it seemed you have chosen the path of devotion to Hindu gods (possibly due to your dream); at the same time, I can understand your vacillation about a deity being just creation of the mind and so it might be better to practise meditation instead of wasting time on devotional rituals. I see that you are only 23 years old, so such lingering doubts are common. However, you might consider the following summary:

All spiritual seekers of whatever religion invariably go through the path of devotion (bhakti yoga) before they enter the path of knowledge of Self-Realization. When you were a Muslim you would surely have associated a symbol with your God, Allah. A Christian primarily worships Jesus, a Buddhist Buddha and the followers of other religions too will surely have an association with their godhead when it comes to worship.

Hinduism allows you to have one or more such associations with the divine and worship a deity of your choice: a deity that is closer to your heart depending on your mental and spiritual temperament. Thus we have several personal deities in Hinduism: Shiva, VishNu, BrahmA, their consorts Uma (aka PArvati), Lakshmi and Sarasvati respectively, KrishNa, Rama, and then Shiva's sons Ganesha and Muruga--to name a few. There are devotions and traditions strongly attached to these Gods. You can also worship more than one God, or many gods with a preferred personal God and so on. This kind of variety in devotion makes a devotee know, feel and realize that there is a God who is there to take care of his/her worldly and spiritual needs, and regulates the devotee in the general and specific provisions of dharma required of him/her in the worldly life.

Although a Hindu worships so many Gods, he/she knows that he/she worships only a form of the one God, Brahman the omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, infinite and eternal Absolute Truth. Once a devotee is firmly fixed in the stage of devotion, it would be easy to ascend to the stage of Self-Realization, which is the ultimate realization that even that one God is not different from one's own soul, Atman.

The Hindu PurANas and itihAsas (epics) are broadly classified into those oriented towards the three Gods of the Hindu Trinity. Some are also oriented towards Shakti (PArvati) and some to the second generation Gods such as Ganesha, Muruga, KrishNa and Rama. Thus, if VishNu is the hero of one PurANa, Shiva and BrahmA would naturally play second fiddle to him and vice versa, so there is nothing wrong with the stories of the Gods competing and even fighting with one another, so long as the story is an allegorical pointer to a greater spiritual truth.

From what you have written about your spiritual inclinations, since you have lingering doubts about a deity being just a creation of the mind, the yoga path of knowledge towards Self-Realization could be better suited for you. Still, if you would prefer devotion towards one or more Gods, the best way could be 'to love them all' despite the problems that crop up for you by reading stories about them. This might be possible by having the right mindset: that whether the stories happened or not, the author/compiler of the PurANas were far advanced souls who knew better than us; that there is a purpose behind the purAnic incidents which may not be known to me immediately; that all the purAnic Gods are just forms of Brahman, so when human egos clash, why not the divine ones?

Conversion to Hinduism is not prohibited or unwelcome, but know that this would put you in a tradition: no one is converted to become a Hindu Advaitic sage straightway. As an alternative, you can, however, experiment with your spiritual pursuits for as long as you wish, before you really need to be fitted into a religion


Namaste!

Thank you for this beautiful response. So perhaps I will pray to some of the deities a variety to see that overtime I can become comfortable and possibly truely believe in God. I have been trying to find a simple site that can explain the Deities and the main function so i can develope a relationship. What I mean is im looking for a site or book that teaches me the attributes of each deity and what they represent. This way lets say I am finding obstacles in my daily life I may turn to Lord Ganesha and ask him to remove the obstacles and guide me. etc. Do you know of any such sites or works?

One of my problems is I am still very ignorant of the deities. I am trying to learn about Lord Shiva but it the information I read doesnt really give me a beginners stage of understanding HIM. Can you perhaps suggest something for me to read?




From what you have written about your spiritual inclinations, since you have lingering doubts about a deity being just a creation of the mind, the yoga path of knowledge towards Self-Realization could be better suited for you


You might be right but I guess I can try to be devoted to deities. I just feel the need to know they exist before worshipping. But I have change drastically from once being this muslim who thought calling upon anything other than Allah was disbelief to now I have experimented with calling upon Buddhist deities (which some are hindu deities such as the Goddess Tara) so why not try to have a personal relationship with the deities? I would hope that the gods and goddesses love me and care for me. I hope to realize that if its true.



As an alternative, you can, however, experiment with your spiritual pursuits for as long as you wish, before you really need to be fitted into a religion.


Yes I think I should take my time. I do gotta say that some of the Hindu Mantras and visualizing the deities have made me a bit more calm. But let me not decide now that I should take this beautiful Dharma because right now im vulnerable and excited over this exploration. That means my mind is clouded. When the mind calms and the excitement ends then truely I can see if this is the path for me.



Namaste Juan.

Here is a good booklet on the practice of meditation:
Yoga, Meditation and Japa Sadhana (Krishnananda)
http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/ym...ishnananda.pdf (http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/ymj/Yoga,%20Meditation%20and%20Japa%20Sadhana%20by%20Swami%20Krishnananda.pdf)

and a useful Website:
http;//www.swamij.com


Thank you very much my friend. I will take a look at the sites right now. :)

Znanna
08 June 2009, 08:25 PM
Namaste,

In the silence of meditation, the echoes of Godz voices may be heard, as the echo of the sea in a transparent conch.

The beauty is taking the time to pick up the shell, so to speak.


ZN

saidevo
08 June 2009, 10:20 PM
Namaste Juan.



So perhaps I will pray to some of the deities a variety to see that overtime I can become comfortable and possibly truely believe in God. I have been trying to find a simple site that can explain the Deities and the main function so i can develope a relationship. What I mean is im looking for a site or book that teaches me the attributes of each deity and what they represent. This way lets say I am finding obstacles in my daily life I may turn to Lord Ganesha and ask him to remove the obstacles and guide me. etc. Do you know of any such sites or works?


Some resources for Hindu Gods and their symbolism:
Sanatana Dharma for Kids: One God, many gods
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=442

Sanatana Dharma for Kids: Hindu Trinity: Brahma - Sarasvati
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=448

Sanatana Dharma for Kids: Hindu Trinity: Vishnu - Lakshmi
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=469

Sanatana Dharma for Kids: Hindu Trinity: Shiva - Parvati
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=526

Sanatana Dharma for Kids: Sacred Symbols: AUM
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=496

Hindu Dharma (Bansi Pandit)
http://ikashmir.net/hindudharma/doc/hindudharma.pdf

Some useful books on Hinduism:
How to Become a (Better) Hindu (Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami)
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hbh/hbh_table_of_contents.html

All About Hinduism (Sivananda)
http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/hinduismbk.pdf

A good Hindu Website:
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/index.html

1. You might visualize the Hindu gods as a family. In fact, they are a family: Shiva's consort Shakti took many avatars and did intense penance to be finally united with him. The philosophy behind the stories of Shakti in her forms PArvati, Durga, KAmAkshi, MInAkshi and so on is that shakti, i.e., energy apparently separates from its source of Consciousness (Shiva) to create the manifest world and then through the jIvas (individual souls) reaches back to Shiva just as a river flows towards and merges into the ocean. The ArdhanArIshvarA form of Shiva illustrates the inseparate union of Shiva-Shakti.

Now, Shakti in her form as MInAkshi, is the sister of VishNu, given in marriage to Sundareshvarar, a form of Shiva in the famous MInAkshi temple, Madurai, Tamilnadu. Thus, VishNu becomes the maternal uncle of Ganesha and Kartikeya. BrahmA is VishNu's child. He created his consort Sarasvati and then married her. BrahmA-Sarasvati represent the entire knowledge of the Universe: notice that in Hinduism, women are given the hightest divine status as consorts of male gods.

2. Devotion to deities with complete faith in their divinity is a safe and sure path for every seeker because it puts the seeker firmly on the path of knowledge, when the soul is advanced enough for it. Also remember that in devotion, the most essential element is surrender to the deity in complete faith, keeping away all our doubts. It is not that you won't get the deity's grace if you have doubts about its divinity; only that you get the grace to the extent of your faith and surrender.

yajvan
08 June 2009, 11:24 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté Spiritualseeker


you write


Alright I have started. Last night I sat in meditation perhaps 10 minutes. This morning I did a 20 minute meditation. Also I did Om Gam Ganapatiye namaha while visualizing Lord Ganesha though this really has nothing to do with the breath meditation. Anyways tonight before going to bed ill do 10 to 15 minutes of meditation. I will try to keep it up


Let me offer a few ideas that may assist you in the next week.

Keep with a time that fits. If you are doing 20 mins, then stay with 20 min. Avoid 10 min, then 15 min, then 20 min then back to 10 min. What the body-mind likes is regularity, being familiar.
Avoid mixing and matching. If you are doing one meditation, stay with that. Then if you wish to chant , or visualize while chanting, that is fine, yet keep the practices seperate. That is, keep breathing as one method, and your chanting + visualizing as another. Stop one, wait a few min, then go on to the next one if you wish.
A key to success is:
being consistent and regular.
being simple about it.
no forcing or pusing or straining - why so? We are looking to culture calmness, eveness, the settling of the mind.
hope this helps.

praṇām

Spiritualseeker
07 July 2009, 08:14 PM
Namaste,

Okay had another dream. However, this dream i cannot recall what i was doing and where i was at. One thing i can bring back from the dream is I either had a thought in the dream or said outloud or heard a voice that said "In order to communicate with God you need to quiet your mind"


Any inputs or explanations?

eriko
08 July 2009, 06:05 AM
Namaste,

Okay had another dream. However, this dream i cannot recall what i was doing and where i was at. One thing i can bring back from the dream is I either had a thought in the dream or said outloud or heard a voice that said "In order to communicate with God you need to quiet your mind"


Any inputs or explanations?
No offense, but I don't think this would be a dream. You have been reading too much about Hinduism lately, this could merely be an impression of the things going in your mind and may not have any spritual significance.

One thing that I have observed is that when you start thinking about something, similar thoughts come to your mind, mainly subconcious mind.

But anyways these are just my thoughts. I won't be surprised if somebody comes up with a better explanation.

Jai Shree Krishna

Eastern Mind
08 July 2009, 06:36 AM
Namaste:

I agree with Eriko on this. In so many different ways and words, various people have been saying that to you over the last month or so. So this is a culmination perhaps, or a reinforcement from your own subconscious. When we spend a lot of time on one activity, thinking about it, the subconscious collects it all.

But I'll throw another idea out for you to consider. Now that all the seeds are planted, perhaps you can try a new method to resolve your 'Hinduism vs Buddhism' inner discussion. This is advice my Guru used to give. That is to just drop the topic from your mind altogether. Go on a mental holiday, or a real holiday. Stop thinking about it. Then, in some time (usually past three days time) when in a moment of non-thinking, when the body is relaxed, mind is relaxed, you may get a superconscious (intuitive) flash of insight, and the answer is just there.

This method has worked for me several times in the past. Intuition, when you're tuned in to it, is more powerful by far than reason. Best wishes, again.

Aum Namasivaya

Spiritualseeker
08 July 2009, 06:42 AM
Namaste,

that is a beautiful technique. I will definately try that. Otherwise i think ill go around in the same circle. I was at the bookstore last week and had hindu books and buddhist books and just kept going back and forth. Maybe I do need to drop it away for a bit.

:)

-juan

Spiritualseeker
07 January 2010, 11:16 AM
So now I have had a dream yesterday about western Siva devotees. I have not really been in touch with Siva lately. But in the dream I saw a bunch of perhaps monastics or simple laymen devotees. They were white males. A strange and humerous aspect of the dream was one of the devotees said he wasnt full vegetarian because he eats fish. I think someone or perhaps I heard a recording or a voice explaining Muraqabah which is a Sufi meditation. Anyways that was the end of that.

OM
-juan

Eastern Mind
07 January 2010, 11:33 AM
SS: Funny. Seems to me you must have been browsing the Hawaii ashram website, or at least some impressions sunk in. Regarding the fish thing, in Mauritius (where fish is a large portion of diet) there were a ton of people I met who said exactly that. They could do these incredibly difficult looking penances of kavadi which I was amazed at, and seemed normal to them. Yet they had the same looks of amazement about me when I said that I was vegetarian. So it was ..kavadi - simple... vegetarianism - difficult. lol Maybe there still are people there like that. Saivism is thriving there.

Aum Namasivaya

Spiritualseeker
07 January 2010, 11:53 AM
haha that is very interesting. So those people were saivites or did they follow a different methodology?

realdemigod
13 April 2011, 11:08 AM
Spiritualseeker you are so blessed to see the holy Lord Shiva in your dreams!