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Spiritualseeker
10 June 2009, 08:54 AM
Hello all,

I was speaking to an Islamic scholar. Though I have no desire to go back to islam, we began discussing what i was looking into now. I told him I am looking into both hinduism and buddhism. I told him it is quite possible i will be a buddhist because I have trouble believing in God, but that I wasnt sure. Anyways he asked some question concerning hinduism.

He said
strangly shiva, ram and bharat
were all leaderswho never ascribed to idolworship

I said:

yes. but I dont condemn hindus much anymore. I understand them. They dont worship the images. THey bring the power of the deity in the image. They are much more peaceful then muslims unfortunately

He said
i dont understand man worship man
height of ignorance

how can a dying being benefits you?

I told him. Hindus worship a FOrmless God.

He said
all pagans worshipped the formles diety
but ascribed 100;s of partners to him


End of that particular discussion.

So from a Hindu Perspective how is God accepted as Manifestations in this world? For example in Islam they condemn the christians for saying GOD became flesh and died on the cross etc... Muslims will say God is transcendent above his creation, that he does not come into his creation and dies as creation.

How would a Hindu respond to the muslim allegations?

If Shiva was on earth and Died why do we worship that manifestation?

Please be patient with me :)
-juan

simex
10 June 2009, 10:40 AM
Again, you're not going to find one definitive answer to this question. I can share my understanding with you, but others will most certainly have different understandings.

My understanding is this: God is infinite and all pervasive. I think even Islam holds this view. But, if something is infinite, how can there be something apart from it? Mathematically, when you add a number to infinity, infinity does not get larger, it remains infinity; the number you added to infinity was always contained within infinity-- incidentally this mathematical principle was first recorded in Upanishads. So, to say that there is God, and then there is also his creation is a little silly. How can there be something apart from the ultimate? If god pervades all, if god extends infinitely in all directions (including time), what could there ever be apart from God? If there were something that was not God, God would be incomplete and limited by this space which he could not occupy.

So, I believe that this universe, and everything it entails is a manifestation of God. If Jesus says "I and my father are one", he is not lying. If a cancer patient goes in to remission, no matter what name we give to the cause, it is ultimately caused by God-- as was the cancer.

So, if Krishna was really here, he was a manifestation of God. If Krishna is a story that someone made-up, he is still a real manifestation of God in the sense that the mind who dreamed him up was in fact God, the dreaming was by God's own volition, and the dream is also God.

This goes back to your "Metaphor or real?" thread. What use is it to ascribe a level of realness to something? If you hold the impression in your mind, it is real on some level. Ideas, and the substratum of ideas, can only come from one source. Any thought you have is a creation of God; a manifestation.

That's my understanding. But I feel very uncomfortable speaking on behalf of "Hinduism". Everyone who responds here will necessarily be speaking for themselves; it's really the aggregate that is the position of Hinduism. But even that is my opinion ;)

Spiritualseeker
10 June 2009, 10:47 AM
Thank you for your response. I like how in Hinduism it is not all or nothing thinking. Its not that you have to believe like this swami over here and oppose that swami overthere. It is very open. Too open but in a good way. Perhaps the reason for my questions Is im ofcourse still in the dillusion of separateness. Had I realize there is no separateness then I would not care about such questions hehe.

Namaste

atanu
10 June 2009, 12:14 PM
Hello all,
If Shiva was on earth and Died why do we worship that manifestation?


Please be patient with me :)
-juan


Juan,

I wrote a long thing and deleted it. Who told you that Shiva was on earth and died? I do not think this is to be found in any hindu's thought and in any scripture.

Om

Spiritualseeker
10 June 2009, 02:13 PM
I guess he thinks that Krishna, Shiva, and other manifestations have died on earth. He thinks them to be human beings i suppose who lived and died like christ.

RamaRaksha
10 June 2009, 08:44 PM
These are all ideas and concepts - anyone can claim theirs is superior, what else would you expect a muslim to say? A religion that says others are infedels will teach their followers to talk about the good in other faiths?

Sometimes I think like an atheist - so far in all these years we have had ancient books on God but there is practically no evidence that God exists. Could God be the answer to man's imaginations? Trying to make sense of the world around him? That would clearly explain the errors and misinformation that exist in religious texts.

For example christians at one time put people to death because they dare say that the Sun and not the earth was the center of the Solar System. They insist even today that evolution is false and the earth is only 5,000 years old! How could God be so misinformed? When you think about it, it is not God but people who had no idea about God, making things up as they saw them some thousands of years ago.

One needs a template for everything. Michelangelo needed a template for God when he painted him and so he came up with this kindly looking bearded grandpa. Similary I put it to you that major religions came up thru man's imaginations.

The western Abrahamic religions sprang from a clever man's idea of patterning God after his King. Think about it - almost all the rules by the church could well have come from a King. A King issues orders and rules and judges people. In those days most Kings were men (and of course women were considered far more inferior in those days), so God had to be a man. When brought before his king, the subject usually fell to his knees and shook with fear, for this man was judge and jury - Hence a fear of God. A King's highest priority is keeping his crown and so if you were disloyal to him, even if you were a good person, he would either have you killed or thrown out of his kingdom. Christians are constantly shouting that you are going to hell if you don't belong to his religion, ie if you are not loyal to him. The christian heaven is a segregated, it is for members only. No room for a Gandhi or Einstein!

The Hindu idea of God is as a Teacher. A Hindu's goal is Moksha, en enlightened state, not a flesh-happy heaven. Enlightenment comes thru knowledge which is being imparted by our Guru, God. It may take several or hundreds of lives before you reach this stage.

Here we should note certain important differences between a King and a Teacher. A King as we noted is feared, but a Teacher should be respected & loved and not feared. Accordingly Hindus have never heard of the words "Fear of God" obviously western in origin. This is also the reason why Hindus should not kneel before God for this the position of a slave, subject or servant, more appropriate for a King religion. Hindus are students or children of God, not her slaves or subjects and so must act accordingly. And in fact most Hindus do do so, we either stand or sit before God.

A Good Teacher does not punish her students - physical punishment does not make you a better student. God uses patience and understanding, imparting her lessons over and over again. For this reason I say the concept of Hell is not compatible with Hinduism/Buddhism. Hell is a place of physical punishment, physical abuse unbecoming of the concept of God! Karma and Rebirth is the better way. You are not punished for the foolish acts of a previous life, but are made to learn God's lessons all over again.

Besides with Karma and Rebirth, Hindus are being given the greatest gift of all - the Gift of Life! Christians and muslims are one-and-done, but we Hindus/Buddhists are fortunate to taste the Gift of Life over and over again!

devotee
10 June 2009, 11:51 PM
Namaste SS,


strangely, shiva, ram and bharat
were all leaders who never ascribed to idol worship

First, Shiva is unborn, so there is no question of his taking to idol-worship. Bharat was a brother of Lord Ram & he is never worshipped alone.

Idol-Worship : What exactly is idol-worship ? It is very difficult to understand for a person coming with Abrahimic religion’s background. Idol worship means getting attached to something which is not God & worshipping it. Now, what is not God ? Hindus believe & have experienced too that There is nothing which is not an expression of the same Almighty.

If Hindus were a simple ignorant Idol worshipper, there would have been no concept in Hinduism of Nirgun/Nirakaar (formless & attributeless) Brahman. If they truly worshipped an idol only why they destroyed these idols after the worship by submerging the idols in the waters ( refer Durga Pooja, Kaali Pooja, Ganesh Pooja, Vishwakarma Pooja etc.) ? The divinity is worshipped & not the idols. First learn how the Hindus worship. An idol however beautifully made is not worshipped for its shape & beauty. The name of God is invoked & it is requested to God to take his position in the idol … this is known as Pran-Pratishtha. After this only, the poojs starts.

Are Muslims not idol-worshipper ? Ask him to throw Q’uran in a dirty gutter & he will become furious. Why ? It is simply a book made of paper which comes from wood & some ink made of some chemicals. What is wrong in throwing wood & ink into gutter ? Why being so sentimental about it ? If you throw this book like this, they will cut off your head without a second thought. A human life has less value than just a piece of wood & some chemicals in the eyes of a Muslim. Isn’t it Idol-worship ? OK. Forget about Q’uran. Ask him to take a photograph of his parents (or the shrine at Mecca or Q’uranic verses written on it) & spit on the photograph or you try to do it. He will not allow this. Why ? It is simply a photograph made of paper & chemicals … this is because he associates that photograph with his parents. Shall we call it idol-worship ? Does he respect the paper & chemicals or is he seeing his parents in it & that is why he respects that photograph ?

Idols are important for worship. Why ? The answer is in experience rather than a debate on it. It is easy for a devotee to worship & relate to, which he can see or perceive with his senses. It is easy to meditate for a beginner to meditate on something gross.


i dont understand man worship man height of ignorance. how can a dying being benefits you?

He doesn’t understand that God is not a human King what he thinks. The idea of God in Abrahimic religions is too simplistic. Take Him like an all powerful Formless King & the problem is over ! Hindus don’t believe in dry theory. Abrahimic religions are based on blind faith … you question the authority of the Q’uran & you are dead !

To me, God of Q’uran has a very high sense of insecurity & he is a top class megalomaniac. Worship Me or else I shall burn you in hell for eternity ! Why is he so desperate for being worshipped ? Don’t worship any false god. What is the meaning of a false god when there is no God but Him ? Why does he get threatened by a non-existent false God ? Is he a child or is he suffering from psychosis ? Kill the idolators / the worshipper of false god wherever you find them ! Why Sir ? Why can’t He (God) do this great job Himself ? Why does he rely on weak human beings for his war ? Is God so weak ? If God exists which has such weak qualities … is He really a God ? If he is so worried that people don’t worship anyone but only Allah the formless God then what is stopping him to send people to this world duly programming his mind accordingly. Why did he allow the Hindu civilization to prosper for last more than 5000 years, if he really hated the idol-worshippers ?

Where is the problem ? If what the Muslims believe is right then there is something seriously wrong with God. However, God, by definition, can never be wrong. So, the belief what Muslims hold must be wrong. Hindus don’t believe in blind faith. Whatever is there in the scriptures, must be validated by experience. It has been validated many times over by Hindu Saints. Hindu doesn’t stop at that … he assures, you too can realize the Truth.

Allah says in Q’uran that the believers(Muslims) will win war against the non-believers (Non-Muslims) because He himself will help them. Why didn’t he help Osama Bin Laden ? Why doesn’t he come to the rescue of the Muslim jihadists who are being killed in scores everyday on an average ? Why are the hard-core Muslim fundamentalist countries like Afghanistan & Pakistan in so bad conditions ? Can Q’uran be wrong ? They believe the book so blindly … what if it is wrong ? What instead of getting Jannat for killing innocents in the name of Islam, they are consigned to flames of hell after death ? What is the guarantee that this won’t happen ?

Hindu has no such worries. His faith is tested & validated. He has no fear.

And for record sake, let me clarify that I don’t think that Q’uran is wrong (please read my other posts on Islam) but it is certainly wrong if taken literally.

OM

Spiritualseeker
11 June 2009, 06:35 AM
Thank you RamaRaksha. Your post was very enlightening. Truely there is a difference between abrahamic deity and the Hindu Deity.

Namaste Devotee

That was a great response. I like the Quran analogy. I suppose we can also add to that the muslim adoration of the Kaaba or the kissing of the black stone. I am becoming more distasteful of my old concepts of God. I believe you are very right concerning the Islamic concept of God. He just seems like an Angry Jealous God who is ready to throw billions of people into hell. I love the Hindu Concept of a more loving God who is manifest in all things. Who is not separate from us. I just hope to Realize he truely exist. I am becoming more fond of the Hindu faith. Especially seeing the references to Hindu Gods in buddhism. It makes me think that perhaps the hindus are right and these deities really do exist.


Thank you both :)

-Juan

saidevo
11 June 2009, 06:44 AM
Out of sight, out of mind! And mind is the only tool for humans towards knowledge of this and the other world. And human mind thinks only by association. So...

Why (and how to) worship a God who can't be seen even as an image in a portrait, stone or metal? Why worship a God who was never with the humans and helped and guided them, instead of ruling from the heavens? Why worship a God to whom we can't relate to by faith and devotion so we might seek his/her grace for our worldly and spiritual well-being?

Out of sight, out of mind! How many of us can and do recollect the face and features of our parents, wife or a friend whom we have not seen in person for quite sometime? Unless we associate and relate to them through a voice on the phone, or a picture conveniently tucked in our purse, I bet most of us can't.

The power and utility of electricity shines only through a light-bulb. All the still and motion pictures on the TV and on the Internet are brought to us only by manifestation of unseen energy that the science calls radio waves. In the same way, the power and grace of the formless God is channelized, felt, understood and realized only through the divine installation of the images.

Once we see the photograph of a beloved person we have not seen for quite sometime, a feeling of being at home comes over us. Once we watch our favourite show on the TV, we get into the world it describes. Once we have seen the formless God in an image or an association of him, we would feel it is easier to relate to and later realize him.

Spiritualseeker
11 June 2009, 06:53 AM
That was beautiful saidevo. I never thought of it in that way. I suppose im just used to this authoritarian Deity that Resides "above the throne" as Muslims say. He dictates through a messenger etc... I never realized that it could be possible for God himself to have a manifestation to teach us the true way of life. I suppose since I was disgusted at christianity, I ended up denying any so called manifestation since I rejected Jesus as a literal manifestation of God. I am starting to understand Hindus a bit more and in some ways I am truely falling in love with the faith. Though I still think it would be foreign and people would not be readily to accept me as a "true" hindu. But I am still fond it. Sometimes I find myself invoking Lord Shiva or Invoking Lord Ganesha. I will see where I am lead. Both hinduism and buddhism are appealing. The belief in a God in Hinduism is something i struggle but I tell you if i had to choose between an abrahamic concept of a deity and the Hindu reality of a deity I would choose the latter.

-Juan

shian
11 June 2009, 07:45 AM
but why God cant use a human form or anythings forms ?

and

Hindu and Buddha temples is many time destroyed by radical, but acctually if no one can support them in law for this case, they will think is no porblem , i can built another in whatever place, because god is not idols.
Or if no money to built, they can pray and chanting without anything even the temple.

But what happened if ka'bah is destroyed ?

who acctually worship the idols ???

atanu
12 June 2009, 01:41 AM
----
Hindu and Buddha temples is many time destroyed by radical, but acctually if no one can support them in law for this case, they will think is no porblem , i can built another in whatever place, because god is not idols.
Or if no money to built, they can pray and chanting without anything even the temple.

But what happened if ka'bah is destroyed ?

who acctually worship the idols ???


Brilliant Shian. There is no other argument left. My pranams.

Om Namah Shivaya

RamaRaksha
12 June 2009, 10:33 PM
That was beautiful saidevo. I never thought of it in that way. I suppose im just used to this authoritarian Deity that Resides "above the throne" as Muslims say. He dictates through a messenger etc... I never realized that it could be possible for God himself to have a manifestation to teach us the true way of life. I suppose since I was disgusted at christianity, I ended up denying any so called manifestation since I rejected Jesus as a literal manifestation of God. I am starting to understand Hindus a bit more and in some ways I am truely falling in love with the faith. Though I still think it would be foreign and people would not be readily to accept me as a "true" hindu. But I am still fond it. Sometimes I find myself invoking Lord Shiva or Invoking Lord Ganesha. I will see where I am lead. Both hinduism and buddhism are appealing. The belief in a God in Hinduism is something i struggle but I tell you if i had to choose between an abrahamic concept of a deity and the Hindu reality of a deity I would choose the latter.

-Juan

I hope you realize that there is more to Hinduism than images. Hinduism is the oldest religions yet is the only major religion to pray to a female form of God! Giving equality to women, how remarkeble is that?

Or take the Buddha. if he had been unlucky to be born in Europe in the middle ages he would have been branded a heretic and been tortured and killed! All his teaching burnt to be lost forever! There would be no Buddhism today! And what do we do to the man who rejected some of our teachings? We make him a God! A faith that is teaching us to see the divinity in a man who is rejecting the faith!

Go back 200 years to europe or the middle east and all you see is one religion each, come to India and you see hundreds of religions! Jews, Parsees, Bohras fleeing persecution and finding it in Hindu India!

Or do you ever wonder why India and Pakistan with a shared background going back hundreds of years took such divergent paths after Independence? India remains a shining democracy whereas pakistan lurches from one despot to another? What is the only difference between the two countries? Religion!

But the greatest Gift of all is being bestowed to you if you choose to become a Hindu/Buddhist - the Gift of Life! As Hindus, we are bound by the laws of karma and to recieve God's teachings are born again and again, receiving this great Gift of Life over and over! Not only does this give us a chance to correct our past mistakes but also gives us another chance to fulfil our unfilled aspirations of a previous life - the lost love, the unfulfilled ambitions, the missed chances - we get one more shot at all this. What a great Gift! I am so thankful that I am not a christian or muslim and be one-and-done.

mithya
13 June 2009, 09:04 AM
I guess he thinks that Krishna, Shiva, and other manifestations have died on earth. He thinks them to be human beings i suppose who lived and died like christ.

Even if that's true, it still doesn't matter, because in Hinduism forms don't matter. Formless is the highest truth. So even if Krishna, Shiva etc. had never existed, it doesn't change the fact that Brahman IS. And Hinduism is about Brahman, not forms such as Krishna etc.

Spiritualseeker
13 June 2009, 09:58 AM
I hope you realize that there is more to Hinduism than images. Hinduism is the oldest religions yet is the only major religion to pray to a female form of God! Giving equality to women, how remarkeble is that?


Rama I must say this is fascinating, however if you look in the thread called women in hinduism it is not exactly all that great. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4125 I was hoping it would be because I saw that Hindus recognize feminem aspects of the deities. But in practice some things I just cant agree with. I feel like I would just be following another view or belief of women similar to islam.



Or take the Buddha. if he had been unlucky to be born in Europe in the middle ages he would have been branded a heretic and been tortured and killed! All his teaching burnt to be lost forever! There would be no Buddhism today! And what do we do to the man who rejected some of our teachings? We make him a God! A faith that is teaching us to see the divinity in a man who is rejecting the faith!


This is very interesting. I am glad for the tolerance of the hindus and I admire it.



What a great Gift! I am so thankful that I am not a christian or muslim and be one-and-done.


I am glad I am no longer muslim :)



Even if that's true, it still doesn't matter, because in Hinduism forms don't matter. Formless is the highest truth. So even if Krishna, Shiva etc. had never existed, it doesn't change the fact that Brahman IS. And Hinduism is about Brahman, not forms such as Krishna etc.

Yes I suppose your right. This is interesting.

RamaRaksha
13 June 2009, 08:23 PM
"Rama I must say this is fascinating, however if you look in the thread called women in hinduism it is not exactly all that great"

A bit of a background as to how I approach things - I approach my faith from a big picture perspective, I try not to get lost in the little details. There are a few problems once you start reading the details like the scripture as you said.

1. The problem of misintepretation: The meanings of words change over time or a word could have different meanings. Simply by reading a book one cannot discern the intent of the writer.

2. Not knowing the language: This is similar to the above - again languages evolve over time. We may think we know the meaning of a word but it could have been used in a different context some time ago.

3. The rules are different over time: What seems right to us may not be right to a future generation or a past one. For example in today's war there is nothing wrong with shooting down an enemy if he was unarmed. That was a big no-no in the olden days. Fighting a woman was considered wrong in the past, today we are encouraged to treat women as equals

4. Here's the biggest problem that I have: Who wrote these scriptures and holy books that you are reading? Christians love to tell everyone that the bible was god's own words - but we know from history that a group of men got together and put together this bible, they decided what was to be kept and what was to be thrown out.

As you know I think like an atheist - I am very skeptical that what we considred holy could have been written by people throwing in ideas that we in our present time consider improper, don't get me wrong these are not bad people, they had different values in those days.

Finally we Hindus consider only the Ramayana as our one and true Holy book, because we know who wrote it. Interesting book - it tells the story of a man called Rama, who never once said that he was God!

I urge you not to get lost in the little details when it comes to the written word- see the big picture always.

Images are a different matter, here you look for details - I believe the ancients realized that images are not that easy to manipulate and they used images to pass along that knowledge. Hence the image of a woman as God. Ever wonder why Rama and Krishna are shown in blue color? From space the earth looks blue in color! Very interesting.

RamaRaksha
13 June 2009, 10:35 PM
Secondly, I am glad that you are questioning the scriptures, you are well on your way to becoming a Hindu.

As I posted before Abrhamic religions are King religions, followers reduce themselves to soldiers, subjects and servants. A king's word is law and must not be questioned. If a king says shoot to kill, a soldier must obey, be the target a woman or a child. This is why terrorist kills innocents, he thinks he is obeying his master. Cults also mostly arise from these religions.

A Teacher is the exact opposite, she wants you to ask questions, dwell on the answer. There are no rules or laws but suggestions. A Teacher wants to impart knowledge to you but will not force it on you. You are free to walk out of her class. Important diff to note: while abrahamic religions threaten you with hell if you dare leave their religion, Hinduism does not do so.

Say a student does not pay any attention to his teacher and repeatedly fails his class. Once an adult, with poor education, he finds only menial jobs while his once classmates go on to bigger and better things. He has learned his lesson, the teacher did not force her lesson on him, the student will eventually learn it himself - this is the essence of karma. You are not judged and punished as in abrahamic religions but you do not get to escape responsibility either, the teacher lets you judge yourself and punish yourself.

I hate to use the word punish, that does sound abrahamic, let's say you learn the lesson that the teacher is trying to teach you. That is the job of a teacher, she is not trying to punish you, but is trying to impart knowledge upon you.