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Spiritualseeker
10 June 2009, 09:26 AM
Hello all,

In the scriptures how do we know that which is metephor and that which is literal? For example do we know if the story of Shiva cutting off the head of Ganesha and then putting on an elephant head is this story metaphor or did this happen?

As I mentioned before in another thread if Shiva is God of universe why did he not know of what he was doing before he chopped off the head? If it is metaphor then I could understand it a bit more. But how do we tell what is 100percent literal or metaphor?

simex
10 June 2009, 09:43 AM
Depends who you ask. There is no central authority in Hinduism, and everyone is free to interpret scriptures as they see fit-- much to the chagrin of some.

Personally, I see it as all metaphoric. But you will find people with the exact opposite position. The beauty of scripture is that while it means different things to different people, it is always relevant to that individual.

Spiritualseeker
10 June 2009, 09:46 AM
I see i can understand that. However, if one thinks its metaphoric they still have a belief that Ganesha does exist though right? Like that story may be metaphoric to some but they still worship Ganesha and believe him as a real being?

MahaHrada
10 June 2009, 10:11 AM
I see i can understand that. However, if one thinks its metaphoric they still have a belief that Ganesha does exist though right? Like that story may be metaphoric to some but they still worship Ganesha and believe him as a real being?

Some will do and some will not.

:)

Like i said before it is more about Self knowledge then anything else.

That there is a difference between that what is existing inside yourself and outside yourself is an illusion.

Worship is a method not a Goal. If you want a book to belive in and a god that is watching over the uiniverse like a boss of some factory or a general over his army, punishing and rewarding you, you need to become a christian or stay a muslim.

So what is real or unreal anyways?

When there exists nothing but the divine inside and outside, you can worship anything, a rat, a monkey, a tree, a cow, an elephant, your guru, a stone, your brother or sister your wife, just as you wish.

Spiritualseeker
10 June 2009, 10:14 AM
Very interesting. It seems like some of the views and concepts are similar to Buddhism. I do agree with your views though. I have killed the belief that there is an external God who is angry at me for not being a good slave etc.. The only thing I am trying to figure out is if there is a Deity, or if it is just shunyata or emptiness.

Thanks for the response.

MahaHrada
10 June 2009, 12:12 PM
Very interesting. It seems like some of the views and concepts are similar to Buddhism. I do agree with your views though. I have killed the belief that there is an external God who is angry at me for not being a good slave etc.. The only thing I am trying to figure out is if there is a Deity, or if it is just shunyata or emptiness.

Thanks for the response.

What does Deity mean? A creator god who oversees creation like some general does not exist in Hinduism nor in Buddhism, maybe at some time in the past Indra had an overseer function. But he was rather like a king among gods that is a very strong God. Otherwise you can say all beings who have reached self knowledge are identical with the impersonal deity. Imagine the diety is milk and this milk is inside everything you can see, and it is also inside you when you close the eyes, so wherever you stick a straw through the outer form, you can then drink that milk.

Remember it is always about you not about an outside god, you have to improve, you do not need a great god to be a great person, you can become a great self even if you only worship a simple or a small god or guru :)

If in the final analysis conciousness is some eternal continuum that is moving through modifications and therefore self, past, present, and future exists like the Hindus belive, or whether conciousness is an illusion created by the law of cause and effect (dependent origination) , in the exact present of here and now, and therefore all is momentary and changing, and there is nothing that abides, or is modified, like the buddhist belive we will maybe never find out. The only thing i know is that one can become a better person and improve the mind by sadhana, if one is a buddhist or a hindu or a taoist, while this is very rarely possible in case of christians and muslims, usually by adopting these religions one looses instead of gaining.

Spiritualseeker
10 June 2009, 02:14 PM
This is an interesting yet may be odd to some story:

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=hindu+gods&first=41&docid=787100336794&mid=099D7EBC9C56C6E9C527099D7EBC9C56C6E9C527&FORM=VIVR
Ganesha and the race with his brother

Eastern Mind
10 June 2009, 05:53 PM
Hey they're all metaphorical to me. But that's just me.

Spiritualseeker
10 June 2009, 06:51 PM
aha but when you mean its metaphoric do you still believe the deities to be real? Like in loving Ganesha he states that Ganesha is not just a symbol but is actually real. Can the stories be metaphoric yet the gods be real? Because something tells me the deities may exist, but some stories i cannot accept as being literal.

Znanna
10 June 2009, 07:29 PM
Well, I've had my share of supernatural stuff happen to me over the years. Where did it come from, inside or outside?

It really doesn't matter one way or another. I'll fess up though to continuing to test the boundaries, though ... at some point I'll stop scratching the itch.

ZN

Eastern Mind
10 June 2009, 07:34 PM
aha but when you mean its metaphoric do you still believe the deities to be real? Like in loving Ganesha he states that Ganesha is not just a symbol but is actually real. Can the stories be metaphoric yet the gods be real? Because something tells me the deities may exist, but some stories i cannot accept as being literal.

Lets put it this way. I believe Ganesha is absolutely real, but that he doesn`t have an elephant`s head. This is a representation. To me, he is energy, and I have no idea of what he actually looks like, but that is irrelevant, as long as the energy can uplift me, and he can answer my prayers. Like Zhanna, I too have had several mystical experiences that can only be explained by His existence. Aum Namasivaya

Spiritualseeker
10 June 2009, 07:40 PM
Interesting, then why should we visualize the deities? If they are beyond such forms?

Eastern Mind
10 June 2009, 08:33 PM
Interesting, then why should we visualize the deities? If they are beyond such forms?

Visualizing the form helps to catalyze (bring out) the energy. Aum Namasivaya

Znanna
10 June 2009, 08:43 PM
Interesting, then why should we visualize the deities? If they are beyond such forms?


Namaste,

Praying adds luster to the beautiful pearl.


ZN

atanu
11 June 2009, 05:33 AM
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=383&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1228929314

Namaste,

Aum in sanskrit or Tamil fonts both represent Ganesha.

Om

Spiritualseeker
11 June 2009, 06:44 AM
aha I see. Well i cant wait to get Loving Ganesha. It still has not arrived i am getting a bit impatient. I also want to start some of the mantras in it and visualize Lord Ganesha.

Eastern Mind
11 June 2009, 07:04 AM
The complete text is on line here. http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/lg/ Its not the same as a book in hand I know, but it might get you started.

Aum Namasivaya

Spiritualseeker
11 June 2009, 07:11 AM
Yeah thank you. I want it in my hand so that I can just flip it open no matter where I am at. I read much of it online. I love the way your teacher explains. He seems like a teacher with real insight. I like how he is explaining also that Lord Ganesha is real. I am interested in learning more about Lord Ganesha because with all due respect in the west we have trouble when we hear about an elephant headed God. we are not used to this so we usually dismiss it as fake or fairy tale. But it could be because in the west many of us our stuck in our intellect and dont try to dwell further into it.


Namaste

Spiritualseeker
11 June 2009, 07:18 AM
By the way if God is within all things then why do we pray outward to him/her? Like in Buddhism we all have buddha nature. That is like saying the God within us. So in buddhism they might use deities but they see the deities as an aspect of their mind. So why in hinduism is outward worship done?

MahaHrada
11 June 2009, 08:04 AM
By the way if God is within all things then why do we pray outward to him/her? Like in Buddhism we all have buddha nature. That is like saying the God within us. So in buddhism they might use deities but they see the deities as an aspect of their mind. So why in hinduism is outward worship done?

Who told you the buddhist do not worship? They worship the whole night and day :) they pray to 100 of thousands of buddhas and bodhisattwas, and on top of that they worship vedic deities like indra and mahakala and maheswara as dharma protectors , then they worship the local gods spirits of their home country like vietnam thailand etc also.
Some Hindu Tradition do not perform much outward worship but more Yoga and inner worship, some perform more outward worship and less Yoga as i told you already. Every Tradition differs but most will agree that self is greater than God, inner Realisation greater than outer worship. I told you before I don´t see a diffference in worship practices between Buddhist and Hindus. Hindus worship and respect teachers and divine beings and buddhist worship teachers and divine beings they even using the same puja (worship) procedures.
And once again: Worship is secondary in both Hinduism and Budhism. Self knowledge and becoming a better person and common good of society is the primary objective. If worship helps to achieve this why should it be stopped? Worship is nothing more than showing respect towards the divine qualities of the worshipped. Good qualities are nothing outward they are inward.
Islam and christianity is centered only around worship and prayer and belief in a personal God and his book, and the god is like a ruler and the book like his law book, and worship is an expression of obedience or submission to the ruler and is begging for gifts or averting of punishment by praising his superíority. These ideas do not exist in Hinduism or Buddhism, therefore worship is not the same. Worship in Hinduism or Buddhism is not begging for mercy and gifts or for absolvence of sins, but one tries to assimilate, and evoke the divine quality óf the deity in oneself and outside.
Before every worship one does therefore the dhyana of the deity, that means one imagines the diety, and worships it sitting ín ones own heart-lotus, with symbolic items, only after meditating on the attributes and the presence of the deity inside the self, is this energy symbolically transferred to the outward sign. If you do not become the divine yourself, or understand what is the divine, how can you think to be able to show respect to an outward sign when it carries no inner meaning, and profit from such a mechanical act? If the form of a devata does not mean anything to you, inside yourself, why worship its outward idol or symbolic image? It would then have a more meaningful use as a doorstopper than in the worship place.
So there is an essential difference between worship in Islam and Christianity and its counterpart in Hinduism and Budhhism.

Spiritualseeker
11 June 2009, 11:21 AM
You are indeed right. I think I am only being stubborn. Even as i was going to sleep i asked for a dream that would tell me if there is a God. I had a dream last night that my father told me "You have been quiet about what you been studying (hinduism)." he was wanting to know what i was learning. I said: "Well I dont know if there is a God" My father said : "You cant stop believing there is a God."

So I wonder if that dream was an indication to accept it and therefore I can just go with the flow that hinduism has to offer an ignore the nontheistic buddhist beliefs.


By the way Loving Ganesha book just came in the mail WOHOO WHOO WOHHOO WOHOOOOOO!

saidevo
11 June 2009, 10:43 PM
Namaste Juan.

A word about dreams:

The dream world is more unreal and often absurd than the real world. The dreams we have, are in most cases just manifestations of our pent up thoughts, emotions and feelings. Our mind creates the world of scenary and action combining them in incredible and often ridiculous ways. For example, if a thought such as 'I shall travel today in a flying railway train' is predominant in your mind and sinks to its storage (chitta), you would have it fulfilled in a dream, sooner or later!

This is not to say that all dreams are absurd manifestations of our pent up impressions: only that all of them can't be taken as pointers; and the question if a dream is a pointer or not can be decided only by the person who had the dream.

While most dreams are subjective, there is another kind of them, known as lucid dreams, which involves the experiences of our soul travelling in the astral world; with practice, this journey of the soul can be controlled and regulated by training our consciousness to be aware of them while we are in them, instead of vaguely remembering them after we wake up from the dream.

Divinity often reveals itself in subtle visions, experiences and understanding in the waking state, when our mind is immersed in devotion or meditation.

atanu
12 June 2009, 01:31 AM
aha but when you mean its metaphoric do you still believe the deities to be real? Like in loving Ganesha he states that Ganesha is not just a symbol but is actually real. Can the stories be metaphoric yet the gods be real? Because something tells me the deities may exist, but some stories i cannot accept as being literal.

Namaste Juan,

I perceive that your mind is running here and there too fast, just like here in me, and thus Ganesha is the correct revealed Deity. The restless Mind is the Rat that is Ganesha's car and which Ganesha uses to fill up His belly, which of course never gets filled. But with prayer, Ganesha can steady the car.

As indicated Ganesha is AUM, the Universe and its source. The deity is not outside but we are in the Deity. The mantra of Ganesha is said to be 'gam om'. 'g' is gati -- the movement. 'a' is the universe of agni Vaisvanra and 'm' is mahesvara sarvesvara. He is the Gati - movement that will take one to Mahesvara, through the agni-vaisvanara world. In this sense, He is Vishnu. And in this sense, "No one reaches God by-passing His Son".

Though, actually God has no son and no consort: He/She/It is the female Godesses and Ganapati.

Rudram 4th ANUVAKA from Yajur Veda

Nama avyadhinibhyo vividhyanti bhyascha vo namo |
Salutations to you who can hit and pierce from all sides, and you who can pierce in diverse and manifold ways.
Nama uganabhya strumhati bhyascha vo namo |
Salutations to you who are in the form of the superior female Gods and the fierce vengeful and powerful Goddesses.
Namo grutsebhyo gratsapati bhyascha vo namo |
Salutations to you the covetous and greedy, and the leaders of such men.
Namo vratebhyo vrata pati bhyascha vo namo |
Salutations to you of diverse crowds and races, and the leaders of them.
Namo ganebhyo Ganapati bhyascha vo namo |
Salutations to you Ganas and their lords.

The massive belly represents the unending desire and hunger in the world, but the Trunk is the support that by-passes the hunger and takes one to the divinity, represented by the Head. Ganesha is the creation of Prakriti of Shiva alone. Divinity of Shiva finds it difficult to enter in this creation and so it forces in, as if with violence, if required.

Book 8 Rig Veda .HYMN XLVIII. Soma.

1. WISELY have I enjoyed the savoury viand, religious-thoughted, best to find out treasure, The food to which all Deities and mortals, calling it meath, gather themselves together.

2 Thou shalt be Aditi as thou hast entered within, appeaser of celestial anger.

-------------------------
Please do not take stories primarily as literal and physical. Shiva is of the quality of Chid Akasha -- the space of pure intelligence and He does not have any physical weapon and physical son, whom He can slay.

Best Wishes.

Om Namah Shivaya

shian
12 June 2009, 04:54 AM
Hindu temple is can made with many forms, idols and colour
but that is only transformation of God form in pure mind

even a human see a vision of some form, he will still asking and difficult to believe, the reason is only from mind

if we practice Hinduism with pure heart
God will appear in our heart, we will know
and
pass over the doubt of God Exsitence or God name, God form etc the atributes of many God in many sect and many religion... all is will pass over

and mind will free be a self mastery and always stay with God

the confused and the affraid and the teror of whatever God atributes is only made from lust, anger and darkness of mind

Spiritualseeker
13 June 2009, 10:05 AM
atanu,

I am trying to understand your post. If Shiva has no son then Ganesha is just Shiva? They are not seperate? This confuses me a bit. Maybe im not understanding it right.



if we practice Hinduism with pure heart
God will appear in our heart, we will know
and
pass over the doubt of God Exsitence or God name, God form etc the atributes of many God in many sect and many religion... all is will pass over


I hope to recognize God. As for right now I just feel that there is no deity. Perhaps there is devas and gods and goddeses in heavenly realms as the buddhist accept, but I am not sure if they are the makers of the universe and that God truely is in existence. I hope to come out of my delusions but it seems like i may be stuck with delusions for the rest of my life.

atanu
13 June 2009, 12:08 PM
atanu,

I am trying to understand your post. If Shiva has no son then Ganesha is just Shiva? They are not seperate? This confuses me a bit. Maybe im not understanding it right.


Namaste Spiritual,

Consciousness called Shiva alone is eternally true and whatever you see, hear, feel, know are of that only. As per Veda, all Gods and Godesses are different names of That only and thus offsprings. But consciousness has no son/daughter like we have. You can read Rudra nAma or Vishnu saharsanAma to see that the nAma contains every other God and also every other thing.


I hope to recognize God. As for right now I just feel that there is no deity. Perhaps there is devas and gods and goddeses in heavenly realms as the buddhist accept,

If you are real, why should the deities be unreal? From our physical and fleshy perspective, we consider only the gross as true. But a spiritualist knows that the subtle is the pre-cursor to the gross.

Om Namah Shivaya

Spiritualseeker
13 June 2009, 07:39 PM
I think im starting to understand you atanu.

Well I have been working with some Lord Ganesha mantras today. I did some that was recommended in Loving Ganesa. I also just purchased a Ganesa statue, however, it seems to be made out of plastic. But its a decent size. I think I might experiment with Puja and visualize it. I am also waiting from the Himalayan Academy to respond to my question concerning the verses in hindu scriptures that seem negative to women. But regardless I will do some Ganesa mantras since Ganesa is also accepted in buddhist pantheon

atanu
13 June 2009, 10:31 PM
I think im starting to understand you atanu.

Well I have been working with some Lord Ganesha mantras today. I did some that was recommended in Loving Ganesa. I also just purchased a Ganesa statue, however, it seems to be made out of plastic. But its a decent size. I think I might experiment with Puja and visualize it. I am also waiting from the Himalayan Academy to respond to my question concerning the verses in hindu scriptures that seem negative to women. But regardless I will do some Ganesa mantras since Ganesa is also accepted in buddhist pantheon

Dear Spiritual,

Please do not bother your mind with whether some scripture appear to be discriminative. The wisdom, IMO, arises in time. Since, you have brought it up, let me write a few lines. In certain Upanishads and also in Koran, some verses appear to teach men to beat women under certain circumstance. Now Hindus point out the verses in Koran as bad example, forgetting Upanishad. And Muslims also point out defects elsewhere (often with violence), forgetting that 'sh-t' everywhere is smelly.

But before Koran teaches about beating, it says: "Women have the job to guard the Unseen (Atman), a task which is Allah's own task." If a self-willed woman forgets her divine duty, then beating comes on its own -- a man is just an instrument. Just as beating comes to a man who loves Ego more than God.

Similarly, in Veda, Surya -- ParamAtman is said to be the bride in every house. She is placed in houses to protect and gaurd. When a woman forgets that, the result is bound to be adverse.


Om Namah Shivaya