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Spiritualseeker
22 June 2009, 07:22 PM
Namaste,

So I have been learning a lot from buddhist and hindu sources. One of the truths I have been learning is that I am not my mind or my body. I am learning to disidentify with the mind. I am not the thinker nor am I the thoughts. I am transcendent beyond the mind. The mind is simply a tool to be used. Who uses it? That is the question I am trying to answer. I go throughout the day asking myself "Who am I" "What am I" "Where is it" etc.. Sometimes I have moments just very brief nanoseconds maybe of Being or being in stillness. That presence that I am.

However, as I am trying to learn about Sanatana Dharma and in particular the Shaivite way I am wondering if God is a deterent from liberation or enlightenment. The reason I say this is I was reading in a book that we should see Lord Shiva in all things. It sounds nice and I have tried to do it, but I am wondering if this is deterring me from enlightenment. For an example. If i take the hindu approach and say GOD the Supreme Creator Deity exist and that perhaps he is in all things and also transcendent beyond all things.... then as I am doing daily activities or whatnot I will "Think" about the creator. Like if i went outside and I look at the sky, the trees, birds, and everything around me i may say Lord Shiva is in all things, but this seems to me to be only a thought. It is simply my mind that is imagining that God exist and that all these things in existence are from him and he flows through and feeds all things vibrant energies. I can understand this conceptually, but it seems to just be for the mind.

If I am learning to disidentify with my mind since I am not the mind, then why should i conjure up a THOUGHT or BELIEF that a Deity Exist and creates me and is in all things? It seems like I will be identifying with my mind in order to believe in Lord Shiva. Thus I will keep identifying with the mind and never realize that I am more than the mind...

Do you understand my worries?

-Juan

Nondogmatic Nondualist
22 June 2009, 09:38 PM
Namaste,

So I have been learning a lot from buddhist and hindu sources. One of the truths I have been learning is that I am not my mind or my body. I am learning to disidentify with the mind. I am not the thinker nor am I the thoughts. I am transcendent beyond the mind. The mind is simply a tool to be used. Who uses it? That is the question I am trying to answer. I go throughout the day asking myself "Who am I" "What am I" "Where is it" etc.. Sometimes I have moments just very brief nanoseconds maybe of Being or being in stillness. That presence that I am.

However, as I am trying to learn about Sanatana Dharma and in particular the Shaivite way I am wondering if God is a deterent from liberation or enlightenment. The reason I say this is I was reading in a book that we should see Lord Shiva in all things. It sounds nice and I have tried to do it, but I am wondering if this is deterring me from enlightenment. For an example. If i take the hindu approach and say GOD the Supreme Creator Deity exist and that perhaps he is in all things and also transcendent beyond all things.... then as I am doing daily activities or whatnot I will "Think" about the creator. Like if i went outside and I look at the sky, the trees, birds, and everything around me i may say Lord Shiva is in all things, but this seems to me to be only a thought. It is simply my mind that is imagining that God exist and that all these things in existence are from him and he flows through and feeds all things vibrant energies. I can understand this conceptually, but it seems to just be for the mind.

If I am learning to disidentify with my mind since I am not the mind, then why should i conjure up a THOUGHT or BELIEF that a Deity Exist and creates me and is in all things? It seems like I will be identifying with my mind in order to believe in Lord Shiva. Thus I will keep identifying with the mind and never realize that I am more than the mind...

Do you understand my worries?

-Juan

Juan,

I know just what you mean. I would say that a concept of who or what God is can often come in the way of recognizing the true nature of God. There are many words describing God and many names attributed to God (including the name "God"), but none of these is the reality. God is independent of any mental concept.

I can only speak from my own experience, so you must see whether what I say is true in your own experience. It seems to me that one must stop believing what the mind says about who one really is and who God really is; then the gap between your own identity and God's identity is revealed to be nonexistent. Your mind tells you that you are a small person (body & mind) that is separate from everyone and everything else, isolated in an alien world full of danger. Your mind may also tell you that God has certain characteristics or names or forms. Why not question these assumptions? If they are true, your own experience will bring them to light; if they are false, your own perception of their falsehood will cause them to fall away and leave the truth standing alone.

So why not try not taking the mind seriously? The mind invents all manner of notions for its own entertainment, but these notions are insubstantial. Forget your concepts of who you are and who God is, and just observe what is in the present moment.

Don't believe what I've said, either; see for yourself. If you merely take what I have written and turn it into a mental concept, it will be of no use to you. The mind doesn't mind changing its content, even if that content is "spiritual". But what happens if you ignore the mind and just observe?

devotee
22 June 2009, 11:07 PM
Namaste SS,



So I have been learning a lot from buddhist and hindu sources. One of the truths I have been learning is that I am not my mind or my body. I am learning to disidentify with the mind. I am not the thinker nor am I the thoughts. I am transcendent beyond the mind. The mind is simply a tool to be used. Who uses it? That is the question I am trying to answer. I go throughout the day asking myself "Who am I" "What am I" "Where is it" etc.. Sometimes I have moments just very brief nanoseconds maybe of Being or being in stillness. That presence that I am.

You are making really good progress, as I can see. :) Have you studied about Maharishi Ramana & his Vichara technique, "Who am I ?" ? It is available on Internet. I suggest you read that & try this technique. After sometime, you may get your answer within.


However, as I am trying to learn about Sanatana Dharma and in particular the Shaivite way I am wondering if God is a deterent from liberation or enlightenment. The reason I say this is I was reading in a book that we should see Lord Shiva in all things. It sounds nice and I have tried to do it, but I am wondering if this is deterring me from enlightenment. For an example. If i take the hindu approach and say GOD the Supreme Creator Deity exist and that perhaps he is in all things and also transcendent beyond all things.... then as I am doing daily activities or whatnot I will "Think" about the creator. Like if i went outside and I look at the sky, the trees, birds, and everything around me i may say Lord Shiva is in all things, but this seems to me to be only a thought. It is simply my mind that is imagining that God exist and that all these things in existence are from him and he flows through and feeds all things vibrant energies. I can understand this conceptually, but it seems to just be for the mind.

This is bound to happen as you are in a transition phase. A time will come when the thing you are considering as hindrance would prove to be of great help to you. This whole creation is the dance of Shiva, the dream of the Dreamer. As you are proceeding on the Jnana Yoga (the path of Knowledge), all concepts that you hold about yourself, this world & God will shatter into pieces. It may shake you from within. Accept these things as quite natural. After all, centuries of "conditioning" has to be wiped out.

OM

Spiritualseeker
23 June 2009, 07:11 PM
Namaste,



Juan,

I know just what you mean. I would say that a concept of who or what God is can often come in the way of recognizing the true nature of God. There are many words describing God and many names attributed to God (including the name "God"), but none of these is the reality. God is independent of any mental concept


aha I just got to get over the delima of seeing the deity in all things. Though perhaps it is meant to be a deeper experience and not so much thought.



It seems to me that one must stop believing what the mind says about who one really is and who God really is; then the gap between your own identity and God's identity is revealed to be nonexistent. Your mind tells you that you are a small person (body & mind) that is separate from everyone and everything else, isolated in an alien world full of danger. Your mind may also tell you that God has certain characteristics or names or forms. Why not question these assumptions? If they are true, your own experience will bring them to light; if they are false, your own perception of their falsehood will cause them to fall away and leave the truth standing alone.


I see the wisdom in this. It is a very difficult path. But no one said it would be easy. Trying not to identify with the mind is like realizing your whole life has been a complete lie.



So why not try not taking the mind seriously? The mind invents all manner of notions for its own entertainment, but these notions are insubstantial. Forget your concepts of who you are and who God is, and just observe what is in the present moment.

Thats golden advice

Thanks


You are making really good progress, as I can see. :) Have you studied about Maharishi Ramana & his Vichara technique, "Who am I ?" ? It is available on Internet. I suggest you read that & try this technique. After sometime, you may get your answer within.

Thank you. I have not studied it. But I will definately check it out now. I think I heard about it on a youtube video.


is bound to happen as you are in a transition phase. A time will come when the thing you are considering as hindrance would prove to be of great help to you. This whole creation is the dance of Shiva, the dream of the Dreamer. As you are proceeding on the Jnana Yoga (the path of Knowledge), all concepts that you hold about yourself, this world & God will shatter into pieces. It may shake you from within. Accept these things as quite natural. After all, centuries of "conditioning" has to be wiped out.

OM

Thank you very much for the support. I need to realize that everything that is within my mind is not the true reality. I need to stop conceptualizing things so that I can look beyond the mind and find the ever present Ultimate Truth, Being at its highest potential.

Namaste

devotee
23 June 2009, 11:19 PM
Namaste SS,



I need to realize that everything that is within my mind is not the true reality. I need to stop conceptualizing things so that I can look beyond the mind and find the ever present Ultimate Truth, Being at its highest potential.


I am not able to understand with your post what is going on in your mind & therefore, I would like to clarify something here, which I feel may remove some doubts, if any.

My advice is :

i) The Path of knowledge is not a path of blind faith. Please don't accept anything unless you find it logical. If anything is not logical, it is not true.
ii) However, the theory above must be very carefully applied. When we say that something is logical or illogical, we tend to assume something, take something on face value. No, question everything, every concept & test if It is really so or it only appears to be so in relative term & we really cannot say what it truly is.
I will give you an example :

Conditioned Perception :

We see that grass is green.

Analysis :

Now, can we say that "grass" is really green ? What is meant when we say that something is green ? If it was really green then that it would have appeared so to every human being & all animals who could see. However, we know that it is not true. There are so many people who are branded as "color blind" & they would see a totally different color when we see green. There are many animals who see simply black & white .... they don't see color.

Let us see what science says. Color is perceived when light of a certain wavelength ( or certain frequency) falls on our retina. We know that light is an electromagnetic wave, so it has no color of its own. The "color" of this light changes with the rate of vibration (frequency) of the electro magnetic fields .... and this color can only be seen when you have eyes of a particular type & a particular mechanism in your mind which interprets the falling of that certain wavelength of light on retina into a particular color.

So, the green color of the grass is a relative reality which has its existence only within certain conditions. Once those conditions are removed, the "green" doesn't remain green any more.

... And thus your concept of color gets shattered here.
------------------------------------------------------
This way you may question everything that you see, feel by touch, smell etc. or believe ... & finally you may come to realise that everything that you see, smell, touch or feel has no independent existence, in the way we tend to perceive them. There is nothing sacred here which should not be questioned. Only Truth is sacred & for reaching the Truth you must slay everything which make the world of falsehood around you.

This the first stage when you discriminate based on logic & try to understand the reality. This will clear a lot of cobweb from your mind.

The next stage is "direct perception". Jnana Yoga is not only theory & not only logic. The last traces of doubts would go by "Direct Perception" (of the Reality). Once you have the Direct Perception, you are called an enlightened being. There are different ways shown by different masters. You may need the help of a God-realised Guru/Teacher for trading further or it may come to you just like that depending upon your previous Karmas.

OM

devotee
23 June 2009, 11:45 PM
I am tempted to post a link provided by Atanu in some other post which would help understand things better.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...5&postcount=37

OM

Spiritualseeker
24 June 2009, 07:47 AM
Conditioned Perception :

We see that grass is green.

Analysis :

Now, can we say that "grass" is really green ? What is meant when we say that something is green ? If it was really green then that it would have appeared so to every human being & all animals who could see. However, we know that it is not true. There are so many people who are branded as "color blind" & they would see a totally different color when we see green. There are many animals who see simply black & white .... they don't see color.

Let us see what science says. Color is perceived when light of a certain wavelength ( or certain frequency) falls on our retina. We know that light is an electromagnetic wave, so it has no color of its own. The "color" of this light changes with the rate of vibration (frequency) of the electro magnetic fields .... and this color can only be seen when you have eyes of a particular type & a particular mechanism in your mind which interprets the falling of that certain wavelength of light on retina into a particular color.

So, the green color of the grass is a relative reality which has its existence only within certain conditions. Once those conditions are removed, the "green" doesn't remain green any more.

... And thus your concept of color gets shattered here.
------------------------------------------------------
This way you may question everything that you see, feel by touch, smell etc. or believe ... & finally you may come to realise that everything that you see, smell, touch or feel has no independent existence, in the way we tend to perceive them. There is nothing sacred here which should not be questioned. Only Truth is sacred & for reaching the Truth you must slay everything which make the world of falsehood around you.

This the first stage when you discriminate based on logic & try to understand the reality. This will clear a lot of cobweb from your mind.

The next stage is "direct perception". Jnana Yoga is not only theory & not only logic. The last traces of doubts would go by "Direct Perception" (of the Reality). Once you have the Direct Perception, you are called an enlightened being. There are different ways shown by different masters. You may need the help of a God-realised Guru/Teacher for trading further or it may come to you just like that depending upon your previous Karmas.


Intersting, so this seems to be similar to the buddhist thought. So, many perceptions of the mind are themselves not independent existences. Therefore much of what I think about the world is really only relative views. Conditions must be meant to be percieved that way. In that case there could be many perceptions depending on the person. Which means this is not reality itself? In order to understand Direct perception of the reality we must kill off what the mind thinks of the world and God and let these peel off layer by layer to see the naked truth. That oneness of felt being that is beyond name and form?

Spiritualseeker
24 June 2009, 07:48 AM
I tried the link that you directed me to, but it seems like it cannot be found?