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Spiritualseeker
18 July 2009, 08:41 PM
Namaste,

I was just wondering if anyone can suggest tips on how to worship Lord Siva, Lord ganesha, Lord murugan and others without dualism.

Znanna
18 July 2009, 08:47 PM
My best advice is to not obsess on the restriction, the tickling doubt...

Rather, just sit and not fuss around.


Namaste,
ZN/as easy said as done, get over it

Spiritualseeker
18 July 2009, 08:48 PM
Hmm... Think what your saying is just be. Just be with it? Dont make it into a mental concept etc?

Eastern Mind
18 July 2009, 09:10 PM
Not sure what you mean, but here's a guess. You're troubled by God is over there, on that shrine, seemingly separated from you, not just inside you?

Aum Namasivaya

brahman
19 July 2009, 12:22 AM
Namaste,

I was just wondering if anyone can suggest tips on how to worship Lord Siva, Lord ganesha, Lord murugan and others without dualism.

This is a common question among the seekers.
You kindly start worshiping them without expecting anything, thats a true sign of duality.

Love for paramatman, faith, and the keenness to forfeit oneself to it. Attainment of advaita from the condition of dvaita can only be possisble through self sacrifice. Relinquish all aspirations, depart from fear, and attain the nature of paramatmanan and attain emancipation through this means of the manifestations of love and “self”(aham) sacrifice.

Brahman

Spiritualseeker
19 July 2009, 07:47 AM
namaste,

I think i understand brahman. Perhaps this is what is discussed in Loving Ganesha where it says we lose our will to the Gods or God Ganesha in particular just surrendering it to him.

Ekanta
19 July 2009, 08:12 AM
I must comment a bit (to the best of my ability).
Its all about purity of mind, to sacrifice desires which cloud our vision. If we keep on doing what "we want" ["want" here is desires] we enforce desires/habits etc, that which darken our view. If we surrender our "want" to Ganesha and follow "his will" ["will" here is Atmic will] we surely are on the right track.
See! God certainly is not far away! Is that close enough?

Here's a quote form Ramakrishna that might clear things up:
"The inferior devotee says, 'God exists, but He is very far off, up there in heaven.'
The mediocre devotee says, 'God exists in all beings as life and consciousness.'
The superior devotee says: 'It is God Himself who has become everything; whatever I see is only a form of God.'"
(The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna)

Now, I guess you are free to worship The God of your choice as either statue, immanent or as all. However, we must start from where we are right?

atanu
19 July 2009, 11:55 AM
Jabala Upanishad
II-1. Thereafter the sage Atri (son of the creator Brahma) asked of Yajnavalkya: ‘How am I to realize the Self which is infinite and unmanifest ?’ (To this) Yajnavalkya replied: That Avimukta (Lord Siva as the redeemer) is to be worshipped; the Self which is infinite and unmanifest, is established in (i.e., is non-different from) the Avimukta (in Ishvara, possessed of attributes)’.

II-2. ‘Which is that (place) where Avimukta is established ?’ ‘He is established in between varana and nasi’. ‘What is (meant by) varana and what (by) nasi ?’ ‘The varana is so called as it wards off all the faults committed by the (ten) organs (of perception and action). The nasi is so named as it destroys all sins committed by the (ten) organs. (The place between the varana and the nasi is the meeting place of the upper part of the nose and the centre of the eye brows). ‘Which is the seat of that (Avimukta) ?’ ‘That, which is the (well known) juncture of the eye brows and the nose, is the juncture of heaven (in the form of the crown of the head) and this world (in the form at the end of the chin). The knowers of the Veda worship indeed this juncture (Samadhi) as Sandhya (in their daily worship). That Avimukta is to be worshipped. He who knows this thus (the true nature of the Avimukta), imparts the wisdom of the Avimukta.
-----------------------------------
Ganapati, Durga putra, is none but manifest Shiva. Ganapati as the physical manifestation is the brain. Two brain lobes are his two ears -- father and mother. The central part, between the left and right brain lobes, is Ganesha as wisdom - Prajnya. The trunk is the spinal cord and the fat belly is many layers of clothings (experiences) -- the first few being the layers of the body itself, followed by the whole Universe, which is the whole experience of Ganesha. That is why his belly is fat.
-------------------------------------
Svetasvatara Upanishad Chapter I

13
The visible form of fire, while it lies latent in its source, the firewood, is not perceived; yet there is no destruction of its subtle form. That very fire can be brought out again by means of persistent rubbing of the wood, its source. In like manner, Atman, which exists in two states, like fire, can be grasped in this very body by means of Om.
14
By making the body the lower piece of wood and Om the upper piece and through the practice of the friction of meditation, one perceives the luminous Self, hidden like the fire in the wood.

Chapter II
16
He indeed, the Lord, who pervades all regions, was the first to be born and it is He who dwells in the womb of the universe. It is He, again, who is born as a child and He will be born in the future, He stands behind all persons and His face is everywhere.

Om Namah Shivaya

Spiritualseeker
19 July 2009, 02:13 PM
Namaste,

Thank you brahman nice explanation.



I must comment a bit (to the best of my ability).
Its all about purity of mind, to sacrifice desires which cloud our vision. If we keep on doing what "we want" ["want" here is desires] we enforce desires/habits etc, that which darken our view. If we surrender our "want" to Ganesha and follow "his will" ["will" here is Atmic will] we surely are on the right track.
See! God certainly is not far away! Is that close enough?

Here's a quote form Ramakrishna that might clear things up:
"The inferior devotee says, 'God exists, but He is very far off, up there in heaven.'
The mediocre devotee says, 'God exists in all beings as life and consciousness.'
The superior devotee says: 'It is God Himself who has become everything; whatever I see is only a form of God.'"
(The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna)

Now, I guess you are free to worship The God of your choice as either statue, immanent or as all. However, we must start from where we are right?


This is great thanks. I am starting to almost feel Lord Ganesha within me and around me.




Jabala Upanishad
II-1. Thereafter the sage Atri (son of the creator Brahma) asked of Yajnavalkya: ‘How am I to realize the Self which is infinite and unmanifest ?’ (To this) Yajnavalkya replied: That Avimukta (Lord Siva as the redeemer) is to be worshipped; the Self which is infinite and unmanifest, is established in (i.e., is non-different from) the Avimukta (in Ishvara, possessed of attributes)’.

II-2. ‘Which is that (place) where Avimukta is established ?’ ‘He is established in between varana and nasi’. ‘What is (meant by) varana and what (by) nasi ?’ ‘The varana is so called as it wards off all the faults committed by the (ten) organs (of perception and action). The nasi is so named as it destroys all sins committed by the (ten) organs. (The place between the varana and the nasi is the meeting place of the upper part of the nose and the centre of the eye brows). ‘Which is the seat of that (Avimukta) ?’ ‘That, which is the (well known) juncture of the eye brows and the nose, is the juncture of heaven (in the form of the crown of the head) and this world (in the form at the end of the chin). The knowers of the Veda worship indeed this juncture (Samadhi) as Sandhya (in their daily worship). That Avimukta is to be worshipped. He who knows this thus (the true nature of the Avimukta), imparts the wisdom of the Avimukta.
-----------------------------------
Ganapati, Durga putra, is none but manifest Shiva. Ganapati as the physical manifestation is the brain. Two brain lobes are his two ears -- father and mother. The central part, between the left and right brain lobes, is Ganesha as wisdom - Prajnya. The trunk is the spinal cord and the fat belly is many layers of clothings (experiences) -- the first few being the layers of the body itself, followed by the whole Universe, which is the whole experience of Ganesha. That is why his belly is fat.
-------------------------------------
Svetasvatara Upanishad Chapter I


13
The visible form of fire, while it lies latent in its source, the firewood, is not perceived; yet there is no destruction of its subtle form. That very fire can be brought out again by means of persistent rubbing of the wood, its source. In like manner, Atman, which exists in two states, like fire, can be grasped in this very body by means of Om.
14
By making the body the lower piece of wood and Om the upper piece and through the practice of the friction of meditation, one perceives the luminous Self, hidden like the fire in the wood.

Chapter II
16
He indeed, the Lord, who pervades all regions, was the first to be born and it is He who dwells in the womb of the universe. It is He, again, who is born as a child and He will be born in the future, He stands behind all persons and His face is everywhere.

Om Namah Shivaya


That was a great explanation. I have also begun to see that Lord Ganapati and other deities are also just a manifestation of Shiva. We are manifestations of Shiva. We are all and all the Absolute through and through. This is contentful knowledge :) I hope we awaken to this Ultimate Self our True Identity that is beyond name and Form.

brahman
20 July 2009, 05:41 AM
namaste,

I think i understand brahman. Perhaps this is what is discussed in Loving Ganesha where it says we lose our will to the Gods or God Ganesha in particular just surrendering it to him.

Kindly note the correction in my previous note- read the sentence as “You kindly start worshiping them without expecting anything, thats a true sign of non-duality.” but since you understood the whole matter ,let me explain it further.

I believe, worshiping many Gods(Demigods) is a practice Hindus are already accustomed with. That may have come as part of years of ritualistic practices, practiced over and over. What exactly is the fact behind this devotion? Or what might have led us to follow the practice? How many of us have tried to pose this question and find an answer?

In reality, we need to comprehend one among the many, comprehend it in its entirety, and forfeit one’s mind to it. Remember, it’s a demanding affair, but certainly an endeavor that can be attained. If you closely examine, its our desire, our aspirations, our yearning to attain results of many kinds, or to satisfy our many requests, that makes us pay devotion to many Gods. Or we expect distinct results from each distinct form of the Lord. Our very nature always yearns for something. But, once the mind is free of those desires, and requests, and when nothing is left to have desire for or yearn for, then it becomes easy to pay attention with deep reverence to one form, and meditate upon that. Certainly at this stage, duality ends.

When you are still concerned about which form of the Lord to be worshipped upon, it may be helpful to meditate upon that form, that personification of the Ultimate, which brings you peace at times of distress.

Today you are experiencing the stage of “bhakti yoga”, which is the beginning of all yogas. Hereafter, keep trying to affirm in your mind, the form of God you have experienced now. Amazingly, faith, devotion, worship and love to this form will bring you rewards of peace and serenity, only to lead you to the state of blissful Samadhi.


Also these quotes from the Holy Gita can be of help for your progress to the path of Brahman, the Transcendental Knowledge.


Chapter 2: verse 29
Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, (no one) cannot understand him at all.

Chapter 4: verse 12
Men in this world desire success in fruitive activities, and therefore they worship the demigods. Quickly, of course, men get results from fruitive work in this world.

Chapter 7: verse 3
Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.

Very important (19- 23)

Chapter 7: verse 19
After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

Chapter 7: verse 20
Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.

Chapter 7: verse 21
I am in everyone's heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship some demigod, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to that particular deity.

Chapter 7: verse 22
Endowed with such a faith, he endeavors to worship a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.

Chapter 7: verse 23
Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.

Gita is Brahman itself

Brahman

Spiritualseeker
20 July 2009, 06:49 AM
Namaste,

I am thinking that I understand you right. So a lot of times we worship the Gods due to our desires for something. Like hope or fear of something. But if we worship the deities without expecting anything in return we can change from Duality to non duality and thus destroy the dichotomy.

So when we meditate on the form of the deity that relieves us from our distress we are at the beginning stages growing closer to the stage of non duality and so we merge into the deity or realize that we were always merged with that deity.

Correct me if I am wrong :)

namaste

devotee
20 July 2009, 07:32 AM
Namaste Brahman,



Chapter 2: verse 29
Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, (no one) cannot understand him at all.

Chapter 4: verse 12
Men in this world desire success in fruitive activities, and therefore they worship the demigods. Quickly, of course, men get results from fruitive work in this world.

Chapter 7: verse 3
Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.

Very important (19- 23)

Chapter 7: verse 19
After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

Chapter 7: verse 20
Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.

Chapter 7: verse 21
I am in everyone's heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship some demigod, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to that particular deity.

Chapter 7: verse 22
Endowed with such a faith, he endeavors to worship a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.

Chapter 7: verse 23
Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.


I find the above translation erroneous. Have you taken them from Srila Prabhupad's book, "Bhagwad Gita as it is" ?

First of all, there is no concept of "demigods" in Hinduism. They are called the "Devas" & they are worshipped for fulfilling some desires. Please don't think that it is forbidden like it is done in the Bible. "Devas" are great souls who are born in "Devaloka" (the abode of the Devas).

Verse 2.29 : The translation of Atman is not "soul" ... "soul" is akin to "ego-self" ... a transient being .... Atman is infinite & eternal & Only One without a second. So, verse 2.29 should be read & understood accordingly.

Verse 7.20 : The verse actually talks about "worshipping" & not surrendering. And Lord Krishna says that this worshipping is not in line with the proper way.

Verse 7.21 : Use of the term, "Supersoul" is ISKCON's design. It is actually Atman & should be read & understood as Atman only ( the meaning of Atman can be understood from Mandukya Upanishad).

Please don't see it as fault finding. As the above translation can misguide new people, so I felt is right to clarify it. Hope, you won't mind.

OM

Spiritualseeker
20 July 2009, 07:47 AM
Namaste,

Thank you for that Devotee. It also reminded me that Atman is that High Ultimate Reality that we all have we just have to realize. NO matter if I choose the Hindu or the buddhist path this truth is the attainment.

:)

-juan

faylasufi
21 July 2009, 08:42 PM
Greetings,

I belong to the Islamic tradition, but we deal with the same problems when it comes to duality and non-duality. It is specifically dealt with in the Sufi tradition where they discuss the ternary: dhakir (the one invoking God) madhkur (the One being invoked) and dhikr (the invocation (usually the Divine Name) itself). Now on one level dualism remains, but inasmuch as the dhakir invokes God with perfect abandon he has left this dualism since only God can invoke God. In worship and meditation the ordinary wayfarer fluctuates between dualism and non-dualism; only the great adepts and spiritual masters remain, more or less, in the non-dual state. It seems to me that one can measure their progress in the spiritual life by the sincerity of their worship since sincerity can only come about when we die a little to what the Hindus call sheathes (kosha), or what Sufis call veils (hujub). To be sincere is to already participate in that plenitude of bliss that is beyond duality. I pray these musings don't muddy the waters.


Adam

brahman
23 July 2009, 07:10 AM
Namaste,

I am thinking that I understand you right. So a lot of times we worship the Gods due to our desires for something. Like hope or fear of something. But if we worship the deities without expecting anything in return we can change from Duality to non duality and thus destroy the dichotomy.

So when we meditate on the form of the deity that relieves us from our distress we are at the beginning stages growing closer to the stage of non duality and so we merge into the deity or realize that we were always merged with that deity.

Correct me if I am wrong

namaste
______

One who relentlessly meditate, realizes the ultimate truth, becomes one with the Ultimate. One is aware that it is Brahman and being aware of it, becomes one with it. He is free of the dualistic ignorance now.

In the process of authentic meditation or dhyana on the deity, one actually evades the first five angams(limbs) of the Ashtanga Yoga. Thereafter he depends only on dharana, dhyana and Samadhi to move ahead. Gradually the body balances itself to its preferred asana or posture, depending on the depth in which the deity has been conceived in the mind .Additionally the body may acquire nadi sudhi and might even start practicing pranayama, pratyahara. It thus gains mastery in the chosen asana. Also gains mastery in the associated asanas as well.

This eventually culminates in kaivalyam or the absolute liberation. Once he has reached this through the bkakthi stage, one can effortlessly evade even the last 3 aspects of yoga the dharana, dhyana and Samadhi. All this happens as we realize atman is not separate from the Ultimate.

Brahman

brahman
23 July 2009, 07:14 AM
I find the above translation erroneous. Have you taken them from Srila Prabhupad's book, "Bhagwad Gita as it is" ?

First of all, there is no concept of "demigods" in Hinduism. They are called the "Devas" & they are worshipped for fulfilling some desires. Please don't think that it is forbidden like it is done in the Bible. "Devas" are great souls who are born in "Devaloka" (the abode of the Devas).

Verse 2.29 : The translation of Atman is not "soul" ... "soul" is akin to "ego-self" ... a transient being .... Atman is infinite & eternal & Only One without a second. So, verse 2.29 should be read & understood accordingly.

Verse 7.20 : The verse actually talks about "worshipping" & not surrendering. And Lord Krishna says that this worshipping is not in line with the proper way.

Verse 7.21 : Use of the term, "Supersoul" is ISKCON's design. It is actually Atman & should be read & understood as Atman only ( the meaning of Atman can be understood from Mandukya Upanishad).

Please don't see it as fault finding. As the above translation can misguide new people, so I felt is right to clarify it. Hope, you won't mind.

OM
__________________
"Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"


I admit with you, even I don’t trust translations. I don’t think anyone can remark as to whether a particular translation on Gita is right or wrong. Can anyone make an absolute flawless translation of the Gita from Sanskrit to English? Well, that’s unattainable.

But, here, my purpose was to divert one’s mind to the messages of Gita, which has answers to all our questions. As the notes contain references, one can easily refer to their copies, find the quotes.

Brahman

brahman
23 July 2009, 07:35 AM
Greetings,

I belong to the Islamic tradition, but we deal with the same problems when it comes to duality and non-duality. It is specifically dealt with in the Sufi tradition where they discuss the ternary: dhakir (the one invoking God) madhkur (the One being invoked) and dhikr (the invocation (usually the Divine Name) itself). Now on one level dualism remains, but inasmuch as the dhakir invokes God with perfect abandon he has left this dualism since only God can invoke God. In worship and meditation the ordinary wayfarer fluctuates between dualism and non-dualism; only the great adepts and spiritual masters remain, more or less, in the non-dual state. It seems to me that one can measure their progress in the spiritual life by the sincerity of their worship since sincerity can only come about when we die a little to what the Hindus call sheathes (kosha), or what Sufis call veils (hujub). To be sincere is to already participate in that plenitude of bliss that is beyond duality. I pray these musings don't muddy the waters.

Adam

A strong belief/faith in particular method for salvation is religion. caparison of any kind can scatter one's consciousness. God has given us the complete freedom to choose a method of your own.

Brahman

Spiritualseeker
24 July 2009, 02:41 PM
One who relentlessly meditate, realizes the ultimate truth, becomes one with the Ultimate. One is aware that it is Brahman and being aware of it, becomes one with it. He is free of the dualistic ignorance now.

In the process of authentic meditation or dhyana on the deity, one actually evades the first five angams(limbs) of the Ashtanga Yoga. Thereafter he depends only on dharana, dhyana and Samadhi to move ahead. Gradually the body balances itself to its preferred asana or posture, depending on the depth in which the deity has been conceived in the mind .Additionally the body may acquire nadi sudhi and might even start practicing pranayama, pratyahara. It thus gains mastery in the chosen asana. Also gains mastery in the associated asanas as well.

This eventually culminates in kaivalyam or the absolute liberation. Once he has reached this through the bkakthi stage, one can effortlessly evade even the last 3 aspects of yoga the dharana, dhyana and Samadhi. All this happens as we realize atman is not separate from the Ultimate.

Brahman
Beautiful thanks for this explanation

faylasufi
26 July 2009, 04:13 PM
A strong belief/faith in particular method for salvation is religion. caparison of any kind can scatter one's consciousness. God has given us the complete freedom to choose a method of your own.

Brahman


I was not able to follow this comment; perhaps you could expand on it a bit. Many thanks.

Adam

TatTvamAsi
26 July 2009, 10:25 PM
Namaste,

Yoga VasiSTa says that worship without Dualism is impossible. Living in this world (aka in avidya) without dualism is impossible.

Dualism/religion/faith/sAdhanA are paths to cross the ocean of SamsArA and realize the one, undifferentiated consciousness we call Brahman.

Namaskar.

TatTvamAsi
26 July 2009, 10:30 PM
Devotion to one path allows the mind to focus on the Supreme without distraction. This is why Yogis have one particular method or philsophy they espouse over others; not because one is superior to another, but the follower can only truly concentrate on ONE path/method/philosophy.

This one-pointed focus is indeed Yoga.

Namaskar.


I was not able to follow this comment; perhaps you could expand on it a bit. Many thanks.

Adam

faylasufi
28 July 2009, 07:57 AM
Dear TatTvamAsi,

I concur with what you've written and understand the function of devotion to an exclusive method (yoga) in the same manner. I was confused by Brahman's reply to my original post and thought that since I specified the "Islamic tradition" that Brahman thought that I was somehow implying it as being superior when in fact I was just qualifying my comments about dualism and worship. In any event, I've learned a lot from perusing the posts here, and hope to learn more.

I was also thinking of the Platonic tradition in the West and its articulation of non-dualism and worship, but I am not sure how far astray in terms of traditions we wish to take this inquiry.

--Adam

brahman
31 July 2009, 01:28 AM
Namaste,

Yoga VasiSTa says that worship without Dualism is impossible. Living in this world (aka in avidya) without dualism is impossible.

Dualism/religion/faith/sAdhanA are paths to cross the ocean of SamsArA and realize the one, undifferentiated consciousness we call Brahman.

Namaskar.

I’m sure, on all that we discussed so far, we were discussing dualism.
One, who relentlessly meditates, acquires the state of the unification of the atman that resides in him with the paramatman or Brahman. But, the initial process of recognizing Brahman happens when one understands and become conscious of dualism(you and the Ultimate). This understanding is the path to experience the yogam of non-dualism.

Brahman

brahman
31 July 2009, 01:55 AM
Dear TatTvamAsi,

I concur with what you've written and understand the function of devotion to an exclusive method (yoga) in the same manner. (1) I was confused by Brahman's reply to my original post and thought that since I specified the "Islamic tradition" that Brahman thought that I was somehow implying it as being superior when in fact I was just qualifying my comments about dualism and worship. In any event,

(2) I've learned a lot from perusing the posts here, and hope to learn more.

I was also thinking of the Platonic tradition in the West and its articulation of non-dualism and worship, but I am not sure how far astray in terms of traditions we wish to take this inquiry.

--Adam

(1)I believe that each tradition has got its own great methods to know the Ultimate reality and experience it in its entirety. This is what religion stands for, and certainly Islamic traditions might hold another mode, which again maybe dissimilar to the mode we discussed here as part of Sanatana tradition. I suggest, what we need to know is only God, and not religion. Recognize it, learn what it is, and comprehend it in the mode you find appropriate. There is nothing wrong to learn the various religions after this. Or else our efforts would result in understanding religions only, and not the Ultimate.

Additionally, we should be careful while switching over the modes of worship. This can be done only if you find(or start to believe) the one you follow unrewarding.

(2) Wishing you great progress, with lots of love for Lord

Brahman

Onkara
02 November 2009, 11:40 AM
I am posting to request for some advice please.

I post here as I have taken the previous posts into consideration. My question is slightly different from the OP as it is not that I wish to worship without dualism, but rather that the urge to worship appears to be a product of my non-dualism.

Since I began my study of Advaita Vedanta the most profound change to my outlook on life has been an almost constant mindfulness of God, not as something seperate from me but as everywhere; "saturated with impersonal consciousness with the miracle of being" might be a better description. Space, outside and inside are the same, different only in name, form, location and movement; there is no real divide perceived. Something new, and quite unexpected arose in me as I reached this deeper undersanding; a sense of bliss and the urge to praise Brahman. "How to express this boundless love, how to worship Brahman?" is my questions but it also appears to be the wrong question from a non-dual perspective.

I see this urge to worship as a problem as potentially an "I/ego" appears in the conceptual play of worshiper and the worshiped. I am indentifying with the thought. That which receives pleasure from the worship is still brahman, that much is known. Knowing that any sense of needing to worship or the sense that there is a recipient for worship is almost tantamount to dvaita (dualism) and this is not my way. So I find I pick up the Advaita scriptures again or return to meditaiton. For me there is no urge to worship naguna (form) alone, when I am aware that Brahman is both saguna and nirguna (formless) so I don't have a strong attraction for statues of a deity or a shrine (and pass no judgment on those who do). The closest I have come to satisfying this urge to give thanks is from attending Sikh Gurdwara, however I am not a Sikh if I follow Advaita Vedanta, correct? A conceptual dilema arises which is totally out of place in respect to Advaita, that of "my religious identity", which I take as a negative indicator in respect to the ultimate goal.

I fear my question is perhaps wrong at its core, as it is conceptual and I am likewise trying to answer it with concepts, all of which could be taken to mean that there remains avidya (ignorance). Perhaps that is true?

However the sense to express my unconditional love through worship arises frequently and so I engage my mind for a solution and I feel I need to open it to the forum for some fresh solutions. I am happy to explain further. I appeal to your advice, thoughts and wisdom please.

devotee
02 November 2009, 09:41 PM
Namaste Snip,



Since I began my study of Advaita Vedanta the most profound change to my outlook on life has been an almost constant mindfulness of God, not as something seperate from me but as everywhere; "saturated with impersonal consciousness with the miracle of being" might be a better description. Space, outside and inside are the same, different only in name, form, location and movement; there is no real divide perceived.

I have an experience of something like that but I cannot say that it is the same. That experience was something which changed my orientation from attachment to God in form/formlessness as in Bhakti-yoga to Advaita for good ( but it doesn't mean that I don't worship God in form or in formlessness ... there is a very subtle difference here). That state lasted for nearly eight hours. And I did pass through pangs of thoughts as you are experiencing after that ... though with a difference that I was not carrying the burden of thoughts from any Abrahimic religion. However, I got my answer in MAndukya Upanishad & in the teachings of my Guruji. The states are different .... the state when there is oneness & when there is duality. In waking state/dream state, God is as real as I am & so the sanctity of worship/prayer is still there. When there is One-ness or when this state comes, there won't be this need as all differences between the worshipper & the worshipped gets dissolved.

So, there should not be any confusion ... as long as I am in waking state (in which I am), there is God & there is worship, there is prayer, there is healing, there is grace. Sometimes there may be an illusion of enlightenment which we must guard against. In Bhagwad Gita Lord Krishna describes how the Sthitprajna person behaves, thinks, does etc.. The Sthitprajna person has no confusion on whether he is Sthitprajna or not. Any confusion reminds me that I am still in waking state only. Charcoal cannot assume that it is diamond ... it has to go through the process of becoming a diamond. I am still that charcoal.

I don't know if this rambling helps. :)

OM

atanu
02 November 2009, 10:47 PM
I am posting to request for some advice please.

I see this urge to worship as a problem as potentially an "I/ego" appears in the conceptual play of worshiper and the worshiped.

Namaste Snip,

You have posed a delicate problem about which even Gaudapada comments in Mandukya Karika. He says we may worship as best as we can. Devotee has given good knowledge. Even avatara beings and jnanis exist in dual mode. In Gita, one finds Shri Krishna talk of God often as an another being. But He also talks as God.

One unique answer may not be available to this profound problem but two things help me.

a) The ego is also arisen out of the Supreme consciousness. Just watch the ego.
b) Questioning Who Am I? as often as possible whenever an egoistic i-sense tries to surface.

The latter technique is a great potent centering tool, apart from being the ultimate question, answer to which everyone has to seek eventually.

Best Wishes.

Om Namah Shivaya

Onkara
03 November 2009, 04:18 PM
Thank you very much Devotee and Atanu
You have provided me with much to think about and some solid reminders/methods. You have helped.

May I ask, do you happen to know why Sri Sankaracharya and other Advaitins continued to practice puja and worship?

devotee
03 November 2009, 08:16 PM
Namaste Snip,


May I ask, do you happen to know why Sri Sankaracharya and other Advaitins continued to practice puja and worship?

As I wrote in my previous post :


as long as I am in waking (in which I am), there is God & there is worship, there is prayer, there is healing, there is grace.

The above applies in the dreaming sleeping state too (i.e. in dream or after fall of my body).

I would advise you to contemplate on verses of MAndukya Upanishad like Newton's Laws of Motion. IMHO, it would help you understand better.

OM

atanu
03 November 2009, 10:58 PM
Thank you very much Devotee and Atanu
You have provided me with much to think about and some solid reminders/methods. You have helped.

May I ask, do you happen to know why Sri Sankaracharya and other Advaitins continued to practice puja and worship?

Namaste Snip,

See whether this answer by a teacher is helpful or not?

Why is devotion necessary?

Devotion activates our higher centres. Devotion purifies our emotions. Devotion allows the finer vibrations to flow into our lives. With devotion, your third eye or intuitive eye opens, and you would see many meaningful coincidences occurring in your life. You will see the mysterious hand of God blessing you.
---------------------------
Why Shankacharya and others continue to worship, is however, IMO, different. Why Shri Krisna worshipped? Shri Krishna Himself answered that. He said "To be an example to the world".

Om Namah Shivaya

Onkara
09 November 2009, 07:55 AM
Namasté Devotee and Atanu
My reply is to acknowledge yours above as I have been considering them in some depth since and did not want to rush a reply.

Following your kind advice I have been reading the Mandukya Upanishad with Karika and have found it very useful in answering my initial post.

I thank you also for the elaboration on devotion including the lines on Shankaracharya and Krishna, Atanu. I feel it has helped to put it into better perspective for me.

Thank you!