Important Message or Lunacy?

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste,

I happened upon this video on YouTube the other day and it was very powerful.

However, I cannot but think that this girl was spoonfed what she is saying and therefore is to some extent indoctrinated.

Anyway, I personally feel that ADULT Hindus should be like this young, energetic girl who supports Dharma.

Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ8QSVvu2bw

What do you think? Is it appropriate for this girl to make such a speech? If yes, why? If not, why not?

Namaskar.

[Ekanta]

So being upset and taking no breath is Dharma?

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam


Namaste,


Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ8QSVvu2bw

What do you think? Is it appropriate for this girl to make such a speech? If yes, why? If not, why not?

Namaskar.

This reminded me of one, just as young, Uma Bharati, she had a command of language and her knowledge of Ramayan was breath taking, she could at that very young age recite verses like computer would.
so i am not surprised at this young girl.

one thing i have noticed with India, is when they become aroused they are very loud and emotional.
i have learned living in UK for so long is one can achieve a lot by remaining calm and focused.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam


So being upset and taking no breath is Dharma?

For far too long India has endured a lot of injustice, so i guess speaking against it becomes a duty for an Indian.
do i think that is a right way of going about it? No

How to go about it is a difficult answer, without being branded a fanatic.

The answer lies with the government, unfortunately the politics in India is very complex to say the least.

Jai

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

duplicated post

[Ekanta]

Pranam
For far too long India has endured a lot of injustice, so i guess speaking against it becomes a duty for an Indian.
do i think that is a right way of going about it? No
How to go about it is a difficult answer, without being branded a fanatic.

I understand that. What I mean is that when you are upset its hard to think clearly and then wrong decisions are taken. If what is proposed is just people will understand. So... that means that the sole purpose of making the audience upset is to push them into hasty decisions. And Dharma... is to REFLECT before you act, if its right or wrong. As I see it they dont really work that well together.

[amra]

Any person who supports the use of the atom bomb is acting against dharma

[TatTvamAsi]

Any person who supports the use of the atom bomb is acting against dharma

So killing the terrorists and other threats to India one by one is more humane? And in that process, and infinitely worse, losing Indian lives in battle is better than nuking that putrid wasteland (pakistan)?

I assume you also condemn America's nuking of Hiroshima & Nagasaki? It saved hundreds of thousands of lives that would have been wasted if the Americans had invaded by land. The two nukes swiftly brought the Japanese to their knees and put them in their place; the war was, for all intent and purposes, over after the nuking of those two Japanese cities.

[TatTvamAsi]

I understand that. What I mean is that when you are upset its hard to think clearly and then wrong decisions are taken. If what is proposed is just people will understand. So... that means that the sole purpose of making the audience upset is to push them into hasty decisions. And Dharma... is to REFLECT before you act, if its right or wrong. As I see it they dont really work that well together.

"Upset"? I see that you are nice and cozy in your little place in Sweden, but if you dare to come to the frontlines of battle along the LOC or were in the midst of those innocent Hindus who were slaughtered as recent as last November, you would be singing a different tune.

It is ideology like yours that has crippled the bureaucracy of India; their minority-appeasing tendencies should be done away with and swift action must be taken to protect India's citizens! India can obliterate, I repeat obliterate, pakistan in less than 1 hour if allowed; however, the moronic government will be twiddling their thumbs and hindering the Indian military in acting swiftly. This is the same problem the US faces as well. Thank goodness Bush had the courage to bypass that nonsense and smash those scumbags in Afghanistan and Iraq.

India needs a strong leader; someone like Narendra Modi at the least or someone like a modern day Shivaji Maharaj!

JAI HIND!

And, btw, DHARMA, is to DEMOLISH EVIL as well. Evil, in this case, refers to the hate-filled pakistanis, missionary scum in and out of India, communists/maoists, and other anti-India forces.

Ever heard of something called the Bhagavad Gita? I suggest you read it sometime.

[Ekanta]

Yes... everyone is a scum except yourself.

[amra]

Actually the war was over before the americans bombed japan, they did it to show their might.

Anyways supporting the use of nuclear weapons is psychotic to say the least it reflects deep mental imbalances and insecurities . The use of weapons that have the potential to destroy the earth many times over is against anyones Dharma.

[OmSriShivaShakti]

"Upset"?
India needs a strong leader; someone like Narendra Modi at the least or someone like a modern day Shivaji Maharaj!

JAI HIND!

And, btw, DHARMA, is to DEMOLISH EVIL as well. Evil, in this case, refers to the hate-filled pakistanis, missionary scum in and out of India, communists/maoists, and other anti-India forces.

Ever heard of something called the Bhagavad Gita? I suggest you read it sometime.

You are 100% right on that one brother! JAI HIND!!!

[Eastern Mind]

Wow. I'm beginning to understand fundamentalism even better. At first I didn't think I should put in my two bits as usually people have already decided what side they are on, but here goes. Probably won't have much effect.

What would Gandhiji say?
Ahimsa is a central central tenet.
Don't all people have souls, value? (Actually I believe it is the souls who have these bags of bones, but I didn't know how else to put it.)
It has been proven time and time again that violence doesn't get rid of a theology.
This is just a start. I could go on.

Aum Namasivasya

[TatTvamAsi]

Actually the war was over before the americans bombed japan, they did it to show their might.

Which cave did you study history in? The war was over before the nukes in Japan? hahahaha...

Right, and India and Israel planned the terrorist attacks in November 2008! :rolleyes:



Anyways supporting the use of nuclear weapons is psychotic to say the least it reflects deep mental imbalances and insecurities . The use of weapons that have the potential to destroy the earth many times over is against anyones Dharma.

Yawn! There have been HUNDREDS of nukes tested and deployed over the past 6 decades and look, the earth is still here relatively intact. :rolleyes:

What is psychotic is to turn a blind eye to the atrocities that are being perpetrated by anti-India/anti-Hindu forces around the world day-in and day-out.

[TatTvamAsi]

Gandhi"ji" also said that Indians should give Nizam state (Hyderabad-->Andhra Pradesh) to Pakistan! So, as you can tell, his opinion would not be that great in matters like these. Also, Gandhi had a great personal philosophy of ahimsa however his application was, well, not very supportive of India and Hindus and is ineffective against asuras (christians/muslims/communists).

All people and all things are valuable; however, please go and tell that to the missionaries and jihadis who are looking to tear India inside-out while the oh-so-liberal-minded folk are prepared to preach to Hindus and Indians on non-violence. :rolleyes:

Going back to the original intent of this thread, I don't agree with children, like the one in the video, talking about such things as she (13 yrs. old) does not have enough personal and life experience to reflect and come to a solid understanding of the situation at hand. She has undoubtedly been indoctrinated, albeit positively in this case; at least for Hindus. Only if the adult Hindus in power had the courage of this girl! :rolleyes:

Trying to separate India and Hinduism in the guise of secularism is like trying to dissociate Hinduism & Yoga like some westerners do.

JAI HIND!


Wow. I'm beginning to understand fundamentalism even better. At first I didn't think I should put in my two bits as usually people have already decided what side they are on, but here goes. Probably won't have much effect.

What would Gandhiji say?
Ahimsa is a central central tenet.
Don't all people have souls, value? (Actually I believe it is the souls who have these bags of bones, but I didn't know how else to put it.)
It has been proven time and time again that violence doesn't get rid of a theology.
This is just a start. I could go on.

Aum Namasivasya

[OmSriShivaShakti]

What would Gandhiji say?
Ahimsa is a central central tenet.
Don't all people have souls, value? (Actually I believe it is the souls who have these bags of bones, but I didn't know how else to put it.)
It has been proven time and time again that violence doesn't get rid of a theology.
This is just a start. I could go on.

Aum Namasivasya

First of all, do not use Gandhi to try to prove a point because he was a political leader, not a religious leader. I agree with you that violence does not do a good job of destroying ideologies, but if violence is used to destroy those who follow certain ideologies (Muslims, Indian Christians, communists, secularists, self-hating Hindus, etc.) it would be very effective.

EasternMind, I would very curious to know what your solution would be to the problems of terrorism and the destruction of the Hindu faith and culture in India. Should we just give up more and more land to the treacherous Pakistanis?? Should Israel just give up even more land to the evil jihadi terrorists of Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc.???

Personally, I think that a prime minister like Narendra Modi with supportive regional leaders like Bal Thackeray, Uddhav Thackeray, and other such great leaders would be a blessing for HINDUstan.

Left-wingers like you and the Congress Party (which I am guessing you support) have been calling people like me, TatTvamAsi, BJP, Shiv Sena, RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal, etc. as "communal" and even "terrorists" for far too long just to appease the Muslims, Christians, communists, and secularists. It is just the same as what the liberals have been doing to the conservatives in my country (The United States) - and it is truly a shame when Hindus do not stand up for the faith of their forefathers and brothers.

Let us take a lesson from the Muslims here- whenever anyone attacks a Muslim country, Muslims from all over come to help. For example, when the USSR invaded Afghanistan, Muslim fighters not only from Afghanistan went to fight, but numerous mujahideen from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc. went to fight in the jihad against the communist scourge. Yet when we Hindus are insulted, degraded, and killed on OUR OWN SOIL, people like you say that we should let it happen and that ahimsa will somehow help you out!!!

[amra]

If you use violence to destroy an ideology, isn't the ideology you use an ideology of violence? So you support an ideology of violence. The same ideology that muslims use to destroy other human beings is being used by the Hindus, only the terms are different. Muslims say unbelievers and Hindus say adharmic forces. Fundamentalist Hindus are a reflection of a muslim ideology. As the saying goes 'Sh*t sticks' the Sh*t the muslim invaders brought in unfortunately instead of being burned for fuel has been piled up by the lazy youth and is now submerging them, fundamentalists drowning in a sea of Sh*t, it will take a lot of tapasya for you to burn this Sh*t off.

[chandu_69]

Wow. I'm beginning to understand fundamentalism even better. At first I didn't think I should put in my two bits as usually people have already decided what side they are on, but here goes. Probably won't have much effect.

What would Gandhiji say?
Ahimsa is a central central tenet.
Don't all people have souls, value? (Actually I believe it is the souls who have these bags of bones, but I didn't know how else to put it.)
It has been proven time and time again that violence doesn't get rid of a theology.
This is just a start. I could go on.

Aum Namasivasya

EMji, violence has proven to be the only way to get rid of theologies(Evil or not).

What would Gandhiji say? well, he must be turning in his grave for failing to prevent the massacres during partition of India.Indians in particular and people in general have, as always missed the point.

It is the theology(Islamic) and theology alone that was responsible.Jinnah has merely provided an impetus ; a call to action.

Gandhi owes his success to the greater extent to the British.Nothing more.Gandhi was huddled in closed doors with his muslim friends while the massacres and rapes were going on.

I always wondered what prevented the British from spending an extra bullet to get rid of Gandhi.British have become more civilized and tolerant towards the end of their rule.

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste:

I don't care about history really. I care about the now. Violence is violence. If your mother scolds you, are you entitled to hit her to shut her up? If a small child in a school doesn't understand a word, are you entitled to hit her so that she might understand.
Violence is a flow. It starts with that first clenching of a fist, whether it be outside a bar by drunkards, in a home where a father beats his daughter, and in an extended family where a bride gets beaten for shaming the family for marrying outside her caste. it extends to picking up a weapon, joining forces with others, and right out bit by bit in its adharmic expansion to all out wars.
Violence is violence. This kali yuga is over when the last human killing another human happens. That day will be a joyous day for all mankind.
The real enemy of all religions isn't any one or the other, it is the fundamentalists in each, who truly don't represent any of the religions. They have a lot in common. The main tenet is "I'm right, and you are WRONG. And I have the right to show you this fact through force."

I do understand how years and years of perceived persecution by others leads one to hate. But at some point there has to be an extension of a hand, a namaste, a recognition of joint humanity.

Violence is NOT the only way to get rid of theologies. Showing by example, open communication, the dialogue that goes on, trust in a family level, education, tolerance otf others. There are lots of ways.

Might I suggest you start going to a temple. A place of peace, where your emotions can calm down. Its not a particular great idea living out a paranoid life worrying about the Muslim and Christian boogeymen trying their best to get us. if you truly believe in reincarnation, and karma, the central tenets of this great religion, (its obvious you don't ... yet, from your posts) then you would see that violence begets viiolence, and you yourself (your soul) will most likely be born as a Muslim next time to work out some of the hate.

Aum Shantihi shantihi shantihi

Aum Namasivaya

[chandu_69]

Violence is NOT the only way to get rid of theologies. Showing by example, open communication, the dialogue that goes on, trust in a family level, education, tolerance otf others. There are lots of ways.

Well, none of such things worked in the case of islamic theology.And there is no reason to believe they will work in future.

Its not a particular great idea living out a paranoid life worrying about the Muslim and Christian boogeymen trying their best to get us
I am not that much worried about christians.I am merely providing an argument wrt to christian theology.
if the christians are following the old testament today(as they did before) we would not be seeing any islamic terrorism today.


if you truly believe in reincarnation, and karma, the central tenets of this great religion, (its obvious you don't ... yet, from your posts) then you would see that violence begets viiolence, and you yourself (your soul) will most likely be born as a Muslim next time to work out some of the hate.

I believe in reincarnation and karma very much if i dont i would not be in this forum.

Violence does beget violence.But that doesnt mean you should not be prepared for Violence.Being knowledgeable about violence and source of that violence doesn't make you a hatemonger.That is what i beleive.
I could be wrong though.

[chandu_69]

one thing i have noticed with India, is when they become aroused they are very loud and emotional.
i have learned living in UK for so long is one can achieve a lot by remaining calm and focused.

Jai Shree Krishna

Agreed.

[Eastern Mind]

Violence does beget violence.But that doesnt mean you should not be prepared for Violence.Being knowledgeable about violence and source of that violence doesn't make you a hatemonger.That is what i beleive.
I could be wrong though.

I think I agree. Perhaps I came across too strong as there have been some real hatemongers on here recently.

My daughter is visiting from her place 1000 miles away. She has a black belt in karate. Hopefully she will never have to use it. But she is prepared. I think this is what you mean. If you do a search on Islamic moderates, it doesn't come up empty, thank goodness. Lets hope the recent dialogue between Pakistan and Indian governments goes amazingly well. But many governments (US in particular) have departments of Defense, which is a true misnomer.

Aum

[rkpande]

what about our sacred scripture, how do we interpret them?
Lord Rama being borrowed by great risi Vishwamitra to desteroy demons disturbing the munies and the like in theit tapas.
Lord krishna killing all those sent by Kansha in self defense and the Kaliya.
Lord Krishna compelling Pandavas to destroy the Karavas.
Lord Rama eliminating almost the whole Rakshak clan.
Lord Paruram vowing to kill all immoral rajput kings.
Sur Asur wars for upholding the Dharma........

[atanu]

I think I agree. Perhaps I came across too strong as there have been some real hatemongers on here recently.

My daughter is visiting from her place 1000 miles away. She has a black belt in karate. Hopefully she will never have to use it. But she is prepared. I think this is what you mean. If you do a search on Islamic moderates, it doesn't come up empty, thank goodness. Lets hope the recent dialogue between Pakistan and Indian governments goes amazingly well. But many governments (US in particular) have departments of Defense, which is a true misnomer.

Aum

This reminds me of an event. About 10 years back a black belt friend got into trouble with some taxi drivers at a railway station. First he thought, it would be easy. But he was wrong. All the drivers there got together and gave my friend a chase.

My friend good humoredly told me this later.

[amra]

what about our sacred scripture, how do we interpret them?
Lord Rama being borrowed by great risi Vishwamitra to desteroy demons disturbing the munies and the like in theit tapas.
Lord krishna killing all those sent by Kansha in self defense and the Kaliya.
Lord Krishna compelling Pandavas to destroy the Karavas.
Lord Rama eliminating almost the whole Rakshak clan.
Lord Paruram vowing to kill all immoral rajput kings.
Sur Asur wars for upholding the Dharma........


Scripture is not meant to be taken in a literal sense, this is an animal mentality. The christians and muslims failed because they interpretated scripture only on a literalistic level. The demons in scripture refer to internal enemies. And the means are given to destroy these enemies. To project internal demons and enemies onto an external enemy (muslims and christians) is to be destroyed by adharmic forces, because in the external world enemies will proliferate exponentionally like cancer, to destroy adharma you have to first become a yogi, otherwise all talk of dharma and adharma is churning the butter of falsehood.

[chandu_69]

what about our sacred scripture, how do we interpret them?
Lord Rama being borrowed by great risi Vishwamitra to desteroy demons disturbing the munies and the like in theit tapas.
Lord krishna killing all those sent by Kansha in self defense and the Kaliya.
Lord Krishna compelling Pandavas to destroy the Karavas.
Lord Rama eliminating almost the whole Rakshak clan.
Lord Paruram vowing to kill all immoral rajput kings.
Sur Asur wars for upholding the Dharma........

Evil has to be fought.Evil is not going to go away because you have noble intentions.

That is a straight forward interpretation, i believe.

[rkpande]

what about our sacred scripture, how do we interpret them?
Lord Rama being borrowed by great risi Vishwamitra to desteroy demons disturbing the munies and the like in theit tapas.
Lord krishna killing all those sent by Kansha in self defense and the Kaliya.
Lord Krishna compelling Pandavas to destroy the Karavas.
Lord Rama eliminating almost the whole Rakshak clan.
Lord Paruram vowing to kill all immoral rajput kings.
Sur Asur wars for upholding the Dharma........


Scripture is not meant to be taken in a literal sense, this is an animal mentality. The christians and muslims failed because they interpretated scripture only on a literalistic level. The demons in scripture refer to internal enemies. And the means are given to destroy these enemies. To project internal demons and enemies onto an external enemy (muslims and christians) is to be destroyed by adharmic forces, because in the external world enemies will proliferate exponentionally like cancer, to destroy adharma you have to first become a yogi, otherwise all talk of dharma and adharma is churning the butter of falsehood.
I agree with you Amara sir, Thats why i quoted waht i quoted

[chandu_69]

Being less intelligent than some of the enlightened people here i have a problem with understanding this

Scripture is not meant to be taken in a literal sense, this is an animal mentality

If you take out scriptures what else remains?.
There are clear cases of interpolations brought about by vested interests in the puranas to a large extent and in stray cases in upanishads.Does that mean we have reject all of them in Toto?.


The demons in scripture refer to internal enemies

How about the demons that kill and rape?.


to destroy adharma you have to first become a yogi, otherwise all talk of dharma and adharma is churning the butter of falsehood

I am not a yogi by any means and not going to be one any time sooner.But, i know what is dharma and adharma,; in broad terms.

I don't kill somebody if he happens to worship a god that i don't like , i don't steal, i don't rape cause i know they are Adharmic activities.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Chandu ji


Being less intelligent than some of the enlightened people here i have a problem with understanding this

i share your problem



If you take out scriptures what else remains?.

nothing but animal mentality.



There are clear cases of interpolations brought about by vested interests in the puranas to a large extent and in stray cases in upanishads.Does that mean we have reject all of them in Toto?.

No




How about the demons that kill and rape?.
i wonder how Ghandhi ji might have answered this?




I am not a yogi by any means and not going to be one any time sooner.But, i know what is dharma and adharma,; in broad terms.

I don't kill somebody if he happens to worship a god that i don't like , i don't steal, i don't rape cause i know they are Adharmic activities.


where are all the Kshatriya gone?

Jai Shree Krishna

[chandu_69]

Namaste Ganeshprasad ji,


i wonder how Ghandhi ji might have answered this?

Mahatma Gandhi ji indeed answered to this.

Quote.......
Gandhi advised them that if a Muslim expressed his desire to rape a Hindu or a Sikh lady, she should never refuse him but cooperate with him. She should lie down like a dead with her tongue in between her teeth. Thus the rapist Muslim will be satisfied soon and sooner he leave her...
.......unquote

Ref: (From the book (Freedom at Midnight, Vikas(reprint), 1997, p-479 D Lapierre and L Collins, ).
(original:http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-at-Midnight-Larry-Collins/dp/0006388515)

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Chandu ji




[font=Book Antiqua]

Mahatma Gandhi ji indeed answered to this.

Quote.......
Gandhi advised them that if a Muslim expressed his desire to rape a Hindu or a Sikh lady, she should never refuse him but cooperate with him. She should lie down like a dead with her tongue in between her teeth. Thus the rapist Muslim will be satisfied soon and sooner he leave her...
.......unquote

Ref: (From the book (Freedom at Midnight, Vikas(reprint), 1997, p-479 D Lapierre and L Collins, ).
(original:http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-at-Midnight-Larry-Collins/dp/0006388515)


wow if it is true this is the height of LUNACY

Jai Shree Krishna

[Harjas Kaur]

Quote:
i wonder how Ghandhi ji might have answered this?
Mahatma Gandhi ji indeed answered to this.

Quote.......
Gandhi advised them that if a Muslim expressed his desire to rape a Hindu or a Sikh lady, she should never refuse him but cooperate with him. She should lie down like a dead with her tongue in between her teeth. Thus the rapist Muslim will be satisfied soon and sooner he leave her...
.......unquote

Ref: (From the book (Freedom at Midnight, Vikas(reprint), 1997, p-479 D Lapierre and L Collins, ). (original:http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-at-Mid.../dp/0006388515 (http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-at-Midnight-Larry-Collins/dp/0006388515))


Gandhi said this?
Dhan Dhan Nathuram Godse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathuram_Godse) Ji.


http://gurmat.info/sms/smsarticles/sikhmartyrs/sadakaur/sadakaur.jpg
The Guru's Sikh's fight Mughul oppression to the death!

http://www.sikhnet.com/files/news/2009/August/gatka-MAIN.jpg
Dhan Teri Sikhi!

http://www.paktribune.com/images/EditorImages/setting-india-on-fire10%281%29.jpg
Durga Vahini (Army of Durga)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KgBT8kIRgBo/Rki2AntVJoI/AAAAAAAAApQ/8M8Gvx0A7xI/s320/kirpan.gif
Suffer no indignity! Defend Dharam!

Jai Mata Di. Shri Mahishasura-Mardhini Stotram
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjBS5UHfGrg

dhann teri sikhi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGIGBCznp5w

I'm sorry, I just can't stand the distortion of Dharmic teaching here. My own silence is unbearable.

"Where are the Kshatriya?"

Awaiting Dharam Yudh to cleanse world of injustice, indignity, stupidity!
Hindustan, Hinduism, Sikhism exists because people with honorable jeevans fought, endured torture, and died to protect it. These did not endure because of prayers alone and nice thoughts alone, but because of righteous actions taken to preserve them.

http://www.sikhnation.org/mothers.jpg
Mughul slaughter of Hindus and Sikhs and inhuman tortures of their defenseless women and children was not stopped by ahimsa in the face of tyranny, but by the ahimsa which respected the vulnerable and used the force of justice to protect them.


ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੇਗ ਵਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਿਰ ਮੁੰਡੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਵਹਿ ॥
jaa thudhh bhaavai thaeg vagaavehi sir munddee katt jaavehi ||
When it pleases You, we wield the sword, and cut off the heads of our enemies.
~Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ang 145
Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji Maharaj


"When all other means have failed, it is righteous to draw the sword."
~Guru Gobind Singh Ji Khalsa Maharaj




if a Muslim expressed his desire to rape a Hindu or a Sikh lady...

She should cut off his head and present it to Durga Ma as a gift to protect other ladies and future descendants.

Love your sisters!
Love your children!
Love your husbands and fathers and brothers!
Love your heritage!
Love yourselves!

Mai Bhago: The True Warrior Princess
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ01Lhe4ScI

Don't be ignorant of Indian history. Gandhi's ahimsa was invention of British to keep the nation groveling and disgusted with itself to promote slavery! No nation worth the name fails in self-defense without ceasing to exist!

[dhruva023]

Nathuram Godse did the right thing. I cant agree him anymore. For those of you who haven't read his last speech, consider reading it.

[Harjas Kaur]

Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ8QSVvu2bw

What do you think? Is it appropriate for this girl to make such a speech? If yes, why? If not, why not?

Gandhi's own words of self-hate for Hindu and Sikh women at hands of Muslim aggressors speaks loudly for all the world to hear how important, how timely, how correct is the speech by this young girl.

Indian PM warns of failure to tackle Maoist 'menace' (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jMrnrj0AyAEtWLjmqFKIrCScxjIA)
Break India, says China think-tank (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Break-India-says-China-think-tank/articleshow/4883573.cms)

Pakistan's Nuclear Lies Exposed - Stockpiling Nukes! (http://newsblaze.com/story/20090903164208jams.nb/topstory.html)

US funds were diverted to strengthen defence against India: Musharraf (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/world/pakistan/US-funds-were-diverted-to-strengthen-defence-against-India-Musharraf/articleshow/5006340.cms)

US sold $4.5 bn worth arms to Pakistan in three years: Report (http://www.hindustantimes.com/US-sold-4-5-bn-worth-arms-to-Pakistan-in-three-years-Report/H1-Article1-454960.aspx)


http://www.outlookindia.com/images/partition_riots_20040823.jpg
The reality of Gandhi's partition legacy.

Just look what happened to Tibetan sovereignty and freedom of religion Tibetan Buddhists have in Chinese occupied Tibet. Then think twice about condemning the wise words of warning this young girl speaks.

Jihadi Muslims and Communist Chinese want to rape, pillage and destroy Hindu India. India has the moral right to Dharmic self-defense!


"Punjab, a state in India bordering Pakistan, has reason to be concerned about this scary picture emerging from surveys recently carried out in some of its areas. Not only Punjab, however. According to a section of the researchers particularly concerned with the cases of birth deformities, Punjab may be paying with the health of its people for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
More precisely, depleted uranium reportedly used in wars in these countries may be the cause of the deformities and disorders on the rise in India's northwestern state, according to a team based in the city of Faridkot.
Winds from Afghanistan may have carried to the state a large quantity of highly toxic uranium, which has contaminated water and increased uranium in bodies to dangerous levels."
Afghan War's Blowback for India's Children? (http://www.truthout.org/082709C)

The war is already beginning. The signs of foreign agitation are already rumbling. To ignore it is foolishness. To prepare and create a bulwark of deterrence is the only survival option.


Or India can lay down, in the words of Gandhi, clenching tongue in her teeth in the hour of her dishonor, and hope when the bad guys are finished, they will content themselves to her violation only, and not dismember her as a corpse.

Gandhi is a kalunk forever!
This path is ruin and destitution!

[devotee]

Namaste H. Kaur ji,

Thanks for your beautiful post with very valuable information.

Regards,

OM

[vasudeva datta]

Namaskar!
I am new to this forum, and have been reading the posts. There has been some recommendation to "nuke" the wastelands of Pakistan, to stop terrorism, with the justification that violence is allowed where other methods fail...it must be remembered that violence is never permitted towards non-aggressors. It is against dharma, in particular, when it involves innocent men, women, children, animals, etc.

Certainly the vast majority of people in Pakistan are not involved in terrorist attacks! To kill even one animal is punishable after death, what to speak of millions of innocent human beings! The ksatriya fighters of yore, all fought according to religious principles, and would not attack even an aggressor if he was tired, without a chariot, with his back turned, or of unequal strength. Such fighting is glorious. Besides that, if we really want to protect the people of India, the worst thing we can do is "nuke pakistan" as the next step would be for Pakistan to "nuke" us- or some other Muslim nation rallying to her aid! So please stop these adharmic arguments, which have nothing to do with Hinduism, but is only fundamentalism that is placing at risk the security of millions of innocent Hindus.

It is impossible to nuke anywhere, including the desert or ocean, without causing mass quantity of death to innocent life forms. I am surprised that such thinking is tolerated by educated Hindus...

[srivijaya]

Very interesting to read this thread for me, as I'm gaining some insight into a subject of which I know very little. I never realised that Hindus within India are suffering in this way. I would also never have believed that Gandhi could be so vilified by Indians.

I learn a lot here.

I'm not sure the solution is to threaten to nuke Pakistan, as they also have nukes they can drop on India. Jihadis have just bombed an Islamic university. They also kill Sufis and other Muslims who do not share their interpretation of Islam. Look what they have done in the Swat Valley. I hope mainstream muslims will wake up and ask themselves what kind of future they see themselves living in.

Do they want the freedom to live in a democracy, earn a decent living and educate their children? They have already seen what the alternative means. The battle for their religion is one they cannot afford to lose to the Jihaddis.

Namaste

[Harjas Kaur]

"There has been some recommendation to "nuke" the wastelands of Pakistan, to stop terrorism, with the justification that violence is allowed where other methods fail...it must be remembered that violence is never permitted towards non-aggressors." Look at your construction again.

1. violence is allowed where other methods fail.
2. violence is never permitted towards non-aggressors.

What would be methods that fail? Reaching peace with aggressors. When peace cannot be reached with aggressors, then aggressive self-defense is dharmically permissible.

Why would someone be talking about "nuking" Pakistan at all? Because of "lack of dharma?" Or because Pakistan is so unstable and so controlled by hostile and aggressive militant forces who promote jihad and Hindu slaughter and warn of impending nuclear attacks against India?

This is not Hindu aggression here. This is alarm at the danger to the Indian state.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3165/3090228848_1212ef6cb4.jpg
2008 Mumbai Attacks

"When all other means have failed, it is righteous to draw the sword." ~Guru Gobind Singh Ji (Tenth Guru of Sikhism)


We are probing into 26/11 attacks: Pakistan
"Islamabad: In a bid to pacify India’s anger on Pakistan’s virtual indifference to book Mumbai attack perpetrators, Pak Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi on Friday said that his country was investigating the 26/11 attacks." http://www.zeenews.com/news571286.html
India to give 7th dossier to Pakistan
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Politics/19-Oct-2009/India-to-give-7th-dossier-to-Pakistan

Bring Mumbai attack culprits to justice, US tells Pakistan
http://blog.taragana.com/n/bring-mumbai-attack-culprits-to-justice-us-tells-pakistan-183673/

India angry at release of Mumbai terrorist
The Indian government has reacted angrily to the decision of a Pakistani court to release a suspect in last year’s terrorist assault on the Indian city of Mumbai.
http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/india-angry-release-mumbai-terrorist
Instead of the accused involved in the Mumbai attacks being brought to justice, Pakistan has given only denials, delays and releasing suspects. Moreover Indian security agencies are receiving credible new terror threats from Pakistani based Islamic militants.

The Tribune
New Delhi, October 20
"In an obvious reference to Pakistan and Afghanistan, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh today said the overall security situation in India’s immediate neighbourhood has worsened and called for improving the country’s defence mechanisms against all forms of terrorism, asymmetric warfare and aggravated militancy. Addressing the Combined Commanders’ Conference here, he said the 26/11 attack had confirmed New Delhi’s worst fears about the lethal dimensions of terrorism and non-traditional threats to the country’s security.

“Although there has been no major terrorist attack in India since then, there are regular intelligence reports of imminent attacks in the country. This is a matter of deep concern, and there isno room for complacency,” he said in the backdrop of reports that Pakistan-based terrorist groups were planning fresh attacks in India." http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20091021/main1.htmPak misusing US aid for war against India: Obama
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0f99S86gpo

Pervasive Anti India hate among Muslim Children
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOPvAfKD4lo

Pakistan Anti-India Protest
More than two thousand Islamists, mainly students, took to the streets of Pakistan's capital
Islamabad on Wednesday (December 3) to protest against Indian accusations over the attacks
on Mumbai last week, Indian investigators have said the Mumbai attackers had months of commando
training in Pakistan by the Lashkar-e-Taiba group, blamed for a 2001 attack on India's parliament.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur8mNQx1tWA

US closely monitoring safety of Pak nukes
23 Oct 2009,
"The US has once again expressed its concern about the safety of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal and the possiblity that it could fall into the hands of Islamists." http://www.timesnow.tv/US-closely-monitoring-safety-of-Pak-nukes/articleshow/4330296.cmsTOP STORIES : NUCLEAR ARMED ALLY IN DANGER : Pakistan fights for it's own survival
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbNYcJU0K5Q


Lashkar-e-Taiba (Urdu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu): لشکرطیبہ laškar-ĕ ṯayyiba; literally Army of the Good, translated as Army of the Righteous, or Army of the Pure)... — is one of the largest and most active militant organizations in South Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia).... It is currently based in Muridke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muridke) near Lahore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahore), Punjab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_%28Pakistan%29), Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan) and operates several training camps in Pakistan-administered Kashmir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan-administered_Kashmir)...

The group's aims include establishing an Islamic state in South Asia and uniting all Muslim majority regions in countries that surround Pakistan. The Lashkar-e-Taiba group has repeatedly claimed through its journals and websites that its main aim is to destroy the Indian republic and to annihilate Hinduism and Judaism. LeT has declared Hindus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism) and Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) to be the "enemies of Islam", as well as India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India) and Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) to be the "enemies of Pakistan". They see the issue of Kashmir as part of a wider global struggle. In a pamphlet entitled "Why Are We Waging Jihad?" the group defined its agenda as the restoration of Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic) rule over all parts of India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lashkar-e-TaibaJios don't blame Hindustani's for not being understanding enough, for not being spiritual enough. How long do you think Hindustan will continue without self-protective attitude and presenting a strong military face as a deterrent to clear threats?

Nuclear Taliban. I can picture it now. All nukes will be aimed at Hindu mandirs. Let's not be naive here. We aren't dealing with a spiritual mentality that Gandhian fasts are going to guilt into cooperation.


http://www.spiritual-happiness.com/durga2.jpg
Jai Mata Di! Jai Hind!

Mahishasura Mardini (AIGIRINANDINI)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTu2nR3L6Ic

[rkpande]

"The Mahabharata - an ancient Indian epic compiled 3000 years ago - contains a reference to a terrible weapon. Regrettably, in our age of the atomic bomb, the description of this weapon exploding will not appear to be an exaggeration: '.... a blazing shaft possessed of the effulgence of a smokeless fire (was) let off...'. That was how this weapon was perceived. The consequences of its use also evoke involuntary associations. '... This makes the bodies of the dead unidentifiable. ... The survivors lose their nails and hair, and their food becomes unfit for eating. For several subsequent years the Sun, the stars and the sky remain shrouded with clouds and bad weather'. source: Riddles of Ancient History - Alexander Gorbovsky, The Sputnik Magazine, Moscow, Sept. 1986, p. 137."

Even Arjun retracted the brahmastra

[SANT]

wow if it is true this is the height of LUNACY
excellent ganesh prasad.
If you dont agree and understand gandhi jis advice it becomes lunacy.



Gandhi's own words of self-hate for Hindu and Sikh women at hands of Muslim aggressors speaks loudly for all the world to hear how important, how timely, how correct is the speech by this young girl.
i was reading a beautiful and deep level intepretation on rama sending sita away from the forest which symbolises how jivatma does tapasya etc.... but here you are spreading hatred and showing 13 year old girl who for some reason is full of hatred and thinks she is durga incarnation(common in all hindu religiuos leaders) and can fight armies of pakistan single handedly.
you know such hatred is filled in the muslims of afghanistan and all over the world from a young age.

[Harjas Kaur]

Quote:
i wonder how Ghandhi ji might have answered this?
Mahatma Gandhi ji indeed answered to this.
Quote.......
Gandhi advised them that if a Muslim expressed his desire to rape a Hindu or a Sikh lady, she should never refuse him but cooperate with him. She should lie down like a dead with her tongue in between her teeth. Thus the rapist Muslim will be satisfied soon and sooner he leave her...
.......unquote



Did someone call such a one as said the above as, "Gandhi Ji?" What kind of respectful person would promote such self-destructive, self-disrespecting attitude?


"...but here you are spreading hatred and showing 13 year old girl who for some reason is full of hatred and thinks she is durga incarnation(common in all hindu religiuos leaders) and can fight armies of pakistan single handedly."I am spreading hatred? Really? Explain. Is there a world power which does NOT have nuclear weapons in it's arsenal as a DETERRENT in this Kali Yuga? How do you think a non-nuclear India will fare sandwiched between a Nuclear China which wants to dismember it and a Nuclear Pakistan whose jihadis want to obliterate it?

And if no one bothers to make a stand to fight Armies of Pakistan, will that promote the peace better? Are you familiar with 500 years history of rape, slaughter and atrocities committed by Muslims against Hindustan? Would you prefer a repeat?

Yes, Gandhi Ji will lead us to... well where exactly?

[SANT]

Did someone call such a one as said the above as, "Gandhi Ji?" What kind of respectful person would promote such self-destructive, self-disrespecting attitude?
hows this self sestructing.
How will it matter if someone rapes the body because the soul is pure.
Gandhi ji was on that level of consciousness so does it mean that if youre not youll ridicule him.
saints are self giving.
Once there was a saint who gave his body to the birds to eat.
Now youll call this also lunacy.


am spreading hatred? Really? Explain. Is there a world power which does NOT have nuclear weapons in it's arsenal as a DETERRENT in this Kali Yuga? How do you think a non-nuclear India will fare sandwiched between a Nuclear China which wants to dismember it and a Nuclear Pakistan whose jihadis want to obliterate it?
Nonnuclear india.That is not a good step in my opinion too. But that is what im not talking about.

This is my concern-
KAAT DAALO KATUOO KO


The muslims are as indian as a hindu is.
Learn to accept this.

[SANT]

Self hate of women by gandhiji
What a disgusting view point.

http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/gwomen.htm

[Harjas Kaur]

"hows this self sestructing.
How will it matter if someone rapes the body because the soul is pure.
Gandhi ji was on that level of consciousness so does it mean that if youre not youll ridicule him.
saints are self giving.
Once there was a saint who gave his body to the birds to eat.
Now youll call this also lunacy."Well when the saint is giving someone else's body to the birds there's something wrong with that. Unless he is my Guru, he has no right to volunteer me!

I really don't have against Gandhi personally. But a Saint running a country is a disaster. A country needs to be run by capable politicians with a shrewd, and hopefully just police and military.

So we are having a political discussion which is naturally NOT pure or about purity and trying to get orange juice from apple sauce.

Should we have the mentality of ahimsa that women should just allow themselves to be raped because the soul is pure, and then pass those diseases which are passed through such acts to their husbands and children?

What about physical purity?

Yes, there are sants who eat garbage and suffer no ill effects because they're at that level. But does this mean that society should sicken itself by eating garbage and not take care to preserve health?


Self hate of women by gandhiji?
What a disgusting view point.I will agree with you, words like that alone would be a disgusting viewpoint and a slander of someone's sant.

HOWEVER, they are not words in isolation but a reaction to a teaching of Gandhi's. And that teaching was that a woman should allow her body to be violated which is a violation of her human dignity.

Do you feel that rape victims should be laughed out of police stations since the act was merely physical and doesn't touch the purity of their souls and should not be prosecuted as a crime?

Or are we discussing a politician in the role of spiritual leader, responding to news that during partition women were being gang-raped and brutalized, and teaching they should lie down and take it?

And what of Kshattriya dharm? How disgusting is this corruption of ahimsa to a Kshattriya? When the very essence of Khsttriya Dharm is to protect from indignities by fighting to the death?

Or are you saying that Kshattriya Dharm is insignificant and Adharmic and Ahimsa is the only correct Dharm? you realize with this mentality, the Dalai Lama would be dead, because no Kshattriyas would have given their lives to defend him OR Buddhi Dharm in Communist occupied Tibet.



The muslims are as indian as a hindu is.
Learn to accept this.I'm not talking about Muslims or prejudice to Muslims in India. I'm talking about radical Jihadi Muslims infiltrating from foreign enemy countries who are screaming as loud as videos can record how they want to obliterate Hindu religion and massacre Hindus.

What's wrong with you people?

Gandhi Ji? Good grief. He may be a sant but he's NOT perfect. And if his policies were leading to ruin of India, which they clearly are, then his assassination was intended to save the nation, and perhaps it isn't too late.

My love and respect to you, but I firmly disagree.

[SANT]

forgive me harjas and ganeshprasad.
I myself dont agree to what i said.
But i mistook ganeshprasads calling act of gandhiji lunacy toward gandhi ji himeself.Im an emotionl person forgive me.
and as for muslims well ive been hearing all day from my brother associate hindus about how they hate muslims etc.Its sad to hear this.

And as for the comment for gandhi ji telling women to sell themselves as right was due to anti-feminist views in my head.
Nor did i want to offend maa durga.
May she forgive me.

But i do beleive that waht i dont agree with gandhiji i will not call him a lunatic since he is the father of the nation and due to hs tapasya and values has led the country to freedom.
As for non violence bapu himself said taht if one acts non violently due to fear it is better for him to act violently.

[Harjas Kaur]

NO need for feeling sorry. You have every right to an opinion and a sincere way of expressing it, there is nothing bad. But it's a hot topic and their are painful issues to look at which are never going to be easy on the eyes on such a thread. I think it would take much more to offend Durga Ma than pointing out a truth that people sometimes get deluded in imitation of qualities they don't have.

Gandhi has his respect. And where he made mistakes he has detractors. Isn't it always like this? Except maybe a purna avatar, who is perfect? For myself a saint should stay out of public office or with the best intentions there will be another disaster of partition.

But I can't detract totally from the man, he had his outstanding qualities. A mixture perhaps of the best and the worst. But when it comes to a protective National stance, Gandhi is not the best role model. I believe in his sincerity. I still agree with act of Naturam Godse as desperate act to preserve the nation from civil war.

~sorry for my limitation of understanding or if I hurt your sentiments in any way. I am just a morakh.

[amra]

Identifying nuclear weapons usage with Kshatriya Dharam is a very bad thing to do. What bravery and Veerta does a person need to press a button to drop a bomb and destroy not a place called Pakistan, but actually burn and scorch the body of your Mother. There was an American Indian who would not plough fields because he said this is violence to mother Earth who bears us all. There is no Pakistan anywhere except in the hate filled kumati durbudhi of pro nuclear people. It in reality is some land on Earth which is part of mother Nature. Do you know you idiotic fools how much devastation radioactivity causes in the surrounding nature? Kshatriya Dharam is not to destroy the hand that feeds us i.e. mother earth. To endorse nuclear weapons is to support the forces that oppose life. The forces that feed on human suffering, are you people aware of these energies that eat pain and suffering? They are the filth of the universe and they helped evil men create the atom bomb because it creates food for them in the form of fear, tension, anxiety and terror. The atom bomb spreads these anti-life emotions and energies to provide these beings with food. These beings are not friends of Sanatana DHarma.

[Harjas Kaur]

"The atom bomb spreads these anti-life emotions and energies to provide these beings with food. These beings are not friends of Sanatana DHarma."There is already nuclear weapon useage occurring in the world. Has been for many years. It's not like "pushing a button" will destroy things forever. We aren't having a discussion of mad scientists with itchy fingers waiting to "push a magic button" and do evil and pretend it's Ksattriya Dharm.

So let's be honest about what is being discussed and not distort the conclusion.

First we have discussed Mohandas Gandhi's statement in the context of Kshattriya Dharm.

Second we have discussed the threat of annihilation of Indian State by foreign powers.

Third we have discussed the use of Nuclear Weapons in military capacity in response to foreign threats and also foreign nuclear weapons currently aimed at the Indian State with growing instability and fanatical jihadi movement threatening

the fourth issue:

Obliteration of the people and practices of Sanatana Dharma.


In the context of this discussion, and it is only a discussion. These are words, not acts. And discussions alone are not condemnatory. We are striving to find the true moral compass in all of these issues.

Next, there isn't some mad scientist waiting to unleash "the bomb." The nuclear contamination has already been released at low levels in the form of Depleted Uranium. DU has already contaminated the Punjab and is causing mass increase in cancers, birth defects, genetic damage and deformities.

So what are we to do?

Become pacifists and let ruin and destruction completely eradicate India, Indian people, and hatred and persecution overwhelm Hindu people, heritage and history?

In the name of what? Preservation of the Earth? The Earth is already being contaminated. Disarmament now would mean catastrophe.

Did you listen to that word?



CATASTROPHE
Etymology: Greek katastrophē, from katastrephein to overturn, from kata-strephein to turn

1 : the final event of the dramatic action especially of a tragedy
2 : a momentous tragic event ranging from extreme misfortune to utter overthrow or ruin
3 a violent and sudden change in a feature of the earth
4 : utter failure :

+ It is my humble benti, and my sincere conviction that if Kshattriya Dharm is not willing to face such an onslaught as threatened by China and Pakistan, Indian State is doomed. Hindu religion will face renewed persecutions, and millions of innocents will be slaughtered for crime of being Hindu.

Any person who is Kshattriya who does not defend his own Motherland is a scandal, a scoundrel, and a disgrace.

And if Gandhi said those words about a dignified Hindu/Sikh woman laying down cooperatingly with a rapist has made her into a degraded sinner. Because by law a woman who cooperates can be construed as having given her consent. How will her honor be defended in Court as having refused? If you do not fight to preserve your own honor, how can you be said to have honor who are willing to give it away so cheaply as by someone else's demand?

ARE WE SLAVES TO OBEY DEGRADING COMMANDS OF THE ENEMY?

Anyone who consents to their own degradation, it is better for them to die. And thus Naturam Godse did the right thing, to preserve the dignity, life and honor of the women and families of Bharat Mata, and to prevent civil war as his policies were INTOLERABLE and would have led to social breakdown as predicted will occur in Kali Yuga.

Nuclear weapons are already being used. Should we not have DETERRENT with some measure of equal force to prevent Asuric mentalities and conditioned fanatics from taking over completely and overwhelming Nation of India with death, misery and destruction?

If there is still a Kshattriya Dharm, we better ALL be praying for their success. There will no good come to the world from Indian surrender to Communist and Islamic Jihadi forces.

http://nomoreccp.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/torture_art.jpg
Communist Chinese persecutions of Falun Gong practitioners

Falun Gong (alternatively Falun Dafa) is a system of beliefs and practices founded in China by Li Hongzhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Hongzhi) in 1992. The practice emerged at the end of China's "qigong boom" as a form of qigong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qigong) practice. Its teachings are influenced by both Taoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism) and Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism)... Since 1999, Falun Gong practitioners in China have been reportedly subject to torture,[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-UN.org-2004-15) illegal imprisonment,[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-Leung-16) beatings, forced labor, organ harvesting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China), and psychiatric abuses.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-sunnygalli-17)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-munro2002-18) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong)(Look up for yourself the horrible tortures inflicted on religious practitioners who did not conform to atheism in China, or to Islam by the Taliban. And just imagine the spectre of a nuclear-armed Taliban in Pakistan. The potential is frighteningly real. We need to face the reality of what pacifistic political policies would mean in the face of a military invasion to precious Sanatana Dharma practitioners. If Kshattriya Dharm is not about the duty of defending and fighting to prevent military destruction and defilement of Sanatana Dharma, then Kshattriya Dharm is useless. The dangers are real.)

[amra]

Ms Harjas Kaur Gandhi in my eyes was not a pacifist, he used pacifism as a political tool. Pacifism was used as a defense which makes gandhi a Kshatriya, he waged an intellectual war. Any means used for worldly gain are violent.

I think you are mad because in number 4 you state that the fourth issue:

Obliteration of the people and practices of Sanatana Dharma

But the harbouring of destructive nuclear weapons is already destroying Sanatana Dharma. Sadhus are very particular about the utensils the employ to eat from and also where they eat. The ambience of the area and their utensils affect the Sadhus consciousness. The affect of merely possessing such destructive weapons will degrade the consciousness of the people who possess these weapons into barbarianism. The tantras teach the reciprocal affect of things. In ayurveda if a herb resembles something it takes the quality of what it resembles. The huge destructive potential of nuclear weapons affects the minds of beings in its vicinity in a like manner.

Anyway your argument is purely political, which means it is for worldly ends which is for maya which is for me demonic. You use the standard tactics of western democracies to keep the population in fear and subjugation i.e. an evil enemy waiting to rape their wives and eat their children.

"In the name of what? Preservation of the Earth? The Earth is already being contaminated. Disarmament now would mean catastrophe."

You do not think the preservation of the Earth is a good aim.? This is a very nihilistic attitude, you do not care about the destruction of the human race? Exactly what is the catastrophe that could be worse than this? What catastrophe is worse than the contamination of Mother Earth? You are on very dangerous ground people like you sholdour more responsibility be careful who you serve.

[TatTvamAsi]

You are utterly incompetent and ignorant of the fact that Hindus in India are facing destruction through coercion overtly and covertly on a daily basis.

Gandhi used pacifism as a tool? At what cost? Tens of thousands of Hindus were slaughtered because of him. His philosophy of non-violence is idealistic but it has to be applied in the correct circumstances and to the right kind of people, not subhuman idiots like the muslims and christians.

A country possessing nuclear weapons degrades consciousness? Boy you must be a tree-hugging liberal. What the muslims have done since 700AD and the christians since the late 1600s to India has degraded not only the collective consciousness of her people, but her society as well. When pious egotistic morons like yourself thump your chests against Hindus, who by nature are non-violent, you further impose and exacerbate the impotency of the collective conscience to act against adharma; in this case the muslims/christians/communists who are vying to destroy India and her culture.

POOPkistan (pakistan) as a land will not be destroyed; only the evil within it.

Go to pakistan, china, and america and preach to them that nuclear weapons should be disabled. Why this pious egotism against India and Hindus? Cowardice; that is the hallmark of every pseudo-secularist like yourself.

Harjas Kaur ji knows exactly what is going on in India and the impending danger the culture and society is in. Neither she nor I are claiming it can be fixed by nuking any country, but by systematic support of Hindus, Hinduism, and Mother India at whatever cost.

First, I don't think you've ever identified yourself. Are you Hindu? Are you Indian? If you are, read up on the current events in India instead of smoking marijuana and doing illicit drugs like the hippie idiots. Secondly, if you are not Indian/Hindu keep your mouth SHUT!


Ms Harjas Kaur Gandhi in my eyes was not a pacifist, he used pacifism as a political tool. Pacifism was used as a defense which makes gandhi a Kshatriya, he waged an intellectual war. Any means used for worldly gain are violent.

I think you are mad because in number 4 you state that the fourth issue:

Obliteration of the people and practices of Sanatana Dharma

But the harbouring of destructive nuclear weapons is already destroying Sanatana Dharma. Sadhus are very particular about the utensils the employ to eat from and also where they eat. The ambience of the area and their utensils affect the Sadhus consciousness. The affect of merely possessing such destructive weapons will degrade the consciousness of the people who possess these weapons into barbarianism. The tantras teach the reciprocal affect of things. In ayurveda if a herb resembles something it takes the quality of what it resembles. The huge destructive potential of nuclear weapons affects the minds of beings in its vicinity in a like manner.

Anyway your argument is purely political, which means it is for worldly ends which is for maya which is for me demonic. You use the standard tactics of western democracies to keep the population in fear and subjugation i.e. an evil enemy waiting to rape their wives and eat their children.

"In the name of what? Preservation of the Earth? The Earth is already being contaminated. Disarmament now would mean catastrophe."

You do not think the preservation of the Earth is a good aim.? This is a very nihilistic attitude, you do not care about the destruction of the human race? Exactly what is the catastrophe that could be worse than this? What catastrophe is worse than the contamination of Mother Earth? You are on very dangerous ground people like you sholdour more responsibility be careful who you serve.

[Harjas Kaur]

Ms Harjas Kaur Gandhi in my eyes was not a pacifist, he used pacifism as a political tool. Pacifism was used as a defense which makes gandhi a Kshatriya, he waged an intellectual war. Does an intellectual war have casualties whom you instruct to lay down and roll over while biting one's own tongue and allow themselves to be raped? He is a criminal for saying such. Such advice is certainly adharmic and immoral, and worse, it is imbecilic.


Any means used for worldly gain are violent.So, you're saying Gandhi's "intellectual war" was another form of violence.


I think you are mad because in number 4 you state that the fourth issue:
Obliteration of the people and practices of Sanatana Dharma

But the harbouring of destructive nuclear weapons is already destroying Sanatana Dharma.Actually when I'm mad, I type very, very fast, using lots of caps and misspellings. Such is not the case. Unless you are meaning "mad" in the perjorative sense of "crazy." In which case, the feeling is mutual.

Let me ask you a logical question. You mention the sadhus practice of bibek. Yet, the sadhus are still living in an environment naturally contaminated with bacteria and viruses, toxins and pollutants regardless of what they choose to ingest to avoid becoming jhooth.

If Pakistan has nuclear weapons, and India does not, for example, do the people living on the non-Pakistani part of Punjab experience a higher level of consciousness? Even if they are living in such close proximity to nuclear contamination that their children are already sickening and their hair is falling out and they are dying of leukemia?

You see, the danger is already out there. We don't have time for silly notions such as a sadhu's purity. And whether or not India is armed or disarmed of nuclear weapons, the nuclear contamination is already here.
Afghan War's Blowback for India's Children?
http://www.truthout.org/082709C

The reality is it is naive to think anyone can put the nuclear genie back in the bottle. It's already out there. The bad guys aren't going to disarm. Unilateral disarmament is just going to mean India can't defend itself and has no deterrent warning in powerful weapons to prevent a pre-emptive strike by a malignant enemy. A militarily weak India is a dead India. You should know that. And a dead India is a dead sadhu.

If the Tibetan government had possessed nuclear weapons it would have had a deterrent effect and the Communist government wouldn't have invaded. But now, look what has become of occupied Tibet. Buddhism is being annihilated. Tibetan culture is being systematically destroyed. And pristine Tibet has become a wasteland of illegal dumping of nuclear waste by Chinese authorities.
NUCLEAR DUMP SITE REPORTED IN TIBET
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/19/world/nuclear-dump-site-reported-in-tibet.html


"Tibetan nuns, who tell of rape and forced marriage to Chinese immigrants. Once a nun has been raped, she cannot return to the nunnery because she is no longer pure. "Women in my village are called to be sterilized one by one, and if they don't go, they must pay a fine," said one nun.

"As monks and nuns we have no families, so we can come forward. Ordinary people are different and cannot leave behind whole families," she said. During her two-year detention, she was stripped and beaten, her hands were wired, and she was repeatedly shocked every day.
"We are fighting for truth—we must be ready to die," she continued. "But in war, not only humans die, but animals, birds, plants and all living beings suffer too."

Their "fight" consists mainly of marching around their temples shouting slogans, or of criticizing the Chinese state in conversations with foreigners. The mere possession of a Tibetan flag is a grave offense. The Chinese often fire on these peaceful demonstrations. It is estimated that at least 1.5 million Tibetans have been killed since the invasion in 1949." http://organicanews.com/news/article.cfm?story_id=91
http://democracyfrontline.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/handcut0.jpg
Taliban "justice"

http://raquelevita.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/acid-attack081.jpg http://raquelevita.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/_42732273_acid203.jpg
Victims of Taliban "acid attacks" for not wearing hijab or for attending "school" as females.

Imagine such a fate for India. And understand that a deterrent warning in nuclear weapons are the only thing that stands between a sovereign nation of India and utter ruin.

Don't be naive to think India's disarming "nuclear deterrent weapons" will eliminate nuclear weapons from the Earth. It will only guarantee to eliminate India from the Earth.


"The affect of merely possessing such destructive weapons will degrade the consciousness of the people who possess these weapons into barbarianism."No, the consciousness of a conquered people becomes degraded due to outrageous humiliations and mutilation of their spirit. Degradation of consciousness comes from brutal treatment at the hands of "barbarians." And NOT from noble and valiant efforts of protective self-defense.


"Anyway your argument is purely political, which means it is for worldly ends which is for maya which is for me demonic."Maya isn't demonic. Are you a Christian convert to Sanatana Dharma who has incorporated Abrahamic ideology into snatan concepts?

Maya is delusive, but Maha Maya is also Mata Ji, and our means of liberation.


"You use the standard tactics of western democracies to keep the population in fear and subjugation i.e. an evil enemy waiting to rape their wives and eat their children." You think I'm making this up to scare people? Why don't you ask the Dalai Lama if he wants to move away from Dharamsala because India's nuclear weapons are degrading his consciousness, and back to nuclear wasteland Tibet to face barbaric torture and murder instead? Oh, wait a minute, it was the noble Kshattriyas of the Indian Army who rescued him and thousands of monks and nuns to preserve Tibetan Buddhi Dharma from annihilation at the hands of Communist Chinese.

Why don't you ask the Tibetan nuns if they would rather go back to Communist occupied Tibet because the nuclear weapons in India are degrading their consciousness?

You can ask them yourself, they have large community in Dharamsala, whether or not an evil enemy exists waiting to rape people's wives and destroy their children, or whether Communist China on India's border poses a real threat. Ask them whether it is an invention to stir up people's fears.

Our family was close friends with a Tibetan Buddhist monk for years. I saw his scarred and deformed arms which he got from being shackled for days at a time. I KNOW these things are real. But instead of accusing of being fake, why don't you just go out and ask people. Ask them yourself. Ask them if they think India should disarm and make itself vulnerable to political enemies so it can no longer be a sanctuary for Tibetans.
Tibet: Beyond Fear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlB85mmm6a8

http://images.businessweek.com/story/08/600/0508_mz_naxalite.jpg
Naxalite Communist insurgency funded and armed by China threaten civil war in India.

http://www.abc.net.au/ra/img/news/gallery/nepal_monk_un_afp_0308.jpg

This is a very nihilistic attitude, you do not care about the destruction of the human race? Exactly what is the catastrophe that could be worse than this? What catastrophe is worse than the contamination of Mother Earth? You are on very dangerous ground people like you sholdour more responsibility be careful who you serve.Who I serve? India won't stop nuclear proliferation by disarming. India won't "save the Earth" by disarming. The Earth is already being contaminated, Indian disarmament won't stop that. But it will most certainly assure India's own destruction and horrific persecution of Hindustani people.

Whose interests exactly do you serve?

[devotee]

Namaste Harjas Kaur ji, Amra & all,

I agree with Harjas Kaur ji.

Sometimes it is important to have the threat of violence to stop violence and sometimes there is a need to even indulge in violence at a smaller scale to stop a future large scale violence.

Our National Poet RAmdhAri Singh Dinkar said it beautifully :

"Kshama shobhati us bhujanga ko jiske paas garal ho l
Usko kya jo dant-heen vish rahit vineet saral ho !"

===> The virtue of "forgiving" shines like an ornament to only that Snake which possesses poison (& therefore has power to strike & kill) & not to those who are toothless, without the power of poisonous bite and simpletons.

These lines were written by him after failure of Nehru's policy of Panchsheel with China when China stabbed India in its back & Indian Army was badly humiliated by Chinese Army in 1962 because it was not prepared to fight.

OM

[Harjas Kaur]

http://www.laprogressive.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/chinese-army.gif
Communist China...what a wonderful neighbor.

Maybe if we ask them nicely, they will free Tibet, stop arming the Naxal insurgency, stop arming insurgencies in Pakistan, Punjab, Kashmir and Jammu, stop threatening to break India into pieces, and disarm their nuclear weapons. But if this isn't reasonable, maybe we should let the military use their training in these matters. I have yet to hear someone responsible for securing the borders talk about disarmament.

Chinese Army Remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5QLZ4oj_6A

[amra]

I am of punjabi descent specifically a Sikh family and I currently reside in England. .

Firstly all physical violence has its cause in intellectual or ideological violence. If a person believes his or her conglomeration of thoughts, that he or she becomes identified with, are superior to other thoughts or ideas then this is the root cause of the tree of violence. Because all atrocities in the world are caused by ideological differences. The chinese treated the tibetan Monks in that awful way because they did not believe in the same thing as they did.

Secondly there is a big difference in having nuclear weapons for defence and actively encouraging the use of them to destroy Pakistan. This is what that girl was saying.

Thirdly behind this defence of Sanatana Dharma is an ideaology which is the legacy of the british and the western world. The obliteration of the subtle worlds and worlds of subtle bodies and also the destruction of the meaning of traditional cosmology by the views of materialistic science. You see when the events of the world are viewed vertically, as the ancient hindus saw the world, the causes for the events in the world occur in the subtle realms of consciousness. The causes are not in mrytuloka but the Gods and Demons 'possess' beings in the lowest world of mrytuloka and make them act and dance according to their will. This is a very brief simplistic explanation. But my point in relevance to the topic is, you and others think that the causes for the destruction of Sanatana Dharma are in the world of the physical mrytuloka, you totally disregard the influence of other lokas because you cannot conceive of them because western science has obliterated these realms.

The nuclear bomb is a physical manifestation of an occurence in the subtle world. It is like all other forms of matter, thought congealed. The question is what is the quality of thought that has congealed into the atom bomb. And do you want to get that stuff on you i certainly do not.

when maya becomes your only aim and goal in life it becomes demonic, by demonic I mean that when you chase after things in mrytuloka through maya you will suffer. And demons feed on suffering. Maya can only become a liberator when there is something above mrytuloka.

"militarily weak India is a dead India. You should know that. And a dead India is a dead sadhu."

My final point is that here in the above statement we can see death portrayed with negative connatations as the end of everything a traditional western scientific conception. Death is rebirth. According to some Hindus death is only a change in energy. Physical or material death is only the transformation of energy. Sanatana Dharma cannot be destroyed physically, this is the essence of my point. It can only be destroyed by associating with decomposing ideas in the guise of Snatana Dharma. The sad irony is that people like Harjas Kaur who see much Good in Sanatana Dharma and are undoutedly very good people will destroy the Sanatana Dharma in their need to protect it. As always incomplete and partial knowledgee or truth can be dangerous.

[Harjas Kaur]

Secondly there is a big difference in having nuclear weapons for defence and actively encouraging the use of them to destroy Pakistan. This is what that girl was saying.
The Americans and British who are fighting in Afghanistan and pushing Pakistan toward civil war now, is that because there is no credible threat that Al Qaeda would get the nuclear weapons? If this girl is alarmed at the spectre of a nuclear armed Pakistan, then understand her response in kind. It's a form of military posturing. She has no authority to use those weapons. She is threatening that India can and will use those weapons against a similar threat.

Or would it be more "dharmic" if she lay down, tongue between her teeth?


Thirdly behind this defence of Sanatana Dharma is an ideaology which is the legacy of the british and the western world.
No, although the British perhaps would like to take credit for that. Sanatana Dharma has always defended itself. The British taught what Gandhi taught by disarming the Gurukulas and acharyas who were militantly fighting them. And so they pushed this distorted and illogical pacifism while denying the brilliant military successes of the past by creating a racist dichotomy of wonderful Aryans and inferior Dravidians.


when maya becomes your only aim and goal in life it becomes demonic, by demonic I mean that when you chase after things in mrytuloka through maya you will suffer. And demons feed on suffering.
The demons are those nations armed and threatening to obliterate India and persecuting religious freedom. Defending Indian people against such an onslaught is NOT Adharmic. The demons do in fact wish to feed on the suffering. A strong and united military defense will prevent that from happening.


"militarily weak India is a dead India. You should know that. And a dead India is a dead sadhu."

My final point is that here in the above statement we can see death portrayed with negative connatations as the end of everything a traditional western scientific conception. Death is rebirth.
Believing in rebirth doesn't mean you lose your common sense or believe some fairy-tale designed by British Masters that capitulation is a moral good.

[Harjas Kaur]

ਸਦਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%BE) ਮੁਕਤੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81) ਆਪੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%87) ਹੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%88) ਸਚਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%9A%E0%A8%BE) ਆਪੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%87) ਅਲਖੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%96%E0%A9%81) ਲਖਾਵਣਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ॥੪॥
सदा मुकतु आपे है सचा आपे अलखु लखावणिआ ॥४॥
Saḏā mukaṯ āpe hai sacẖā āpe alakẖ lakẖāvaṇi▫ā. ||4||
The True Lord is liberated forever. The Unseen Lord causes Himself to be seen. ||4||

ਆਪੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%87) ਮਾਇਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%86) ਆਪੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%87) ਛਾਇਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9B%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%86) ॥
आपे माइआ आपे छाइआ ॥
Āpe mā▫i▫ā āpe cẖẖā▫i▫ā.
He Himself is Maya, and He Himself is the Illusion.

ਆਪੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%87) ਮੋਹੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%81) ਸਭੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%AD%E0%A9%81) ਜਗਤੁ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81) ਉਪਾਇਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%89%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%86) ॥
आपे मोहु सभु जगतु उपाइआ ॥
Āpe moh sabẖ jagaṯ upā▫i▫ā.
He Himself has generated emotional attachment throughout the entire universe.

ਆਪੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%87) ਗੁਣਦਾਤਾ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE) ਗੁਣ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%A3) ਗਾਵੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5%E0%A9%88) ਆਪੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%87) ਆਖਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF) ਸੁਣਾਵਣਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ॥੫॥
आपे गुणदाता गुण गावै आपे आखि सुणावणिआ ॥५॥
Āpe guṇḏāṯā guṇ gāvai āpe ākẖ suṇāvṇi▫ā. ||5||
He Himself is the Giver of Virtue; He Himself sings the Lord's Glorious Praises. He chants them and causes them to be heard. ||5||

ਆਪੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%87) ਕਰੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%87) ਕਰਾਏ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%8F) ਆਪੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%87) ॥
आपे करे कराए आपे ॥
Āpe kare karā▫e āpe.
He Himself acts, and causes others to act.

ਆਪੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%87) ਥਾਪਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A5%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BF) ਉਥਾਪੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%89%E0%A8%A5%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%87) ਆਪੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%87) ॥
आपे थापि उथापे आपे ॥
Āpe thāp uthāpe āpe.
He Himself establishes and disestablishes.

ਤੁਝ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%9D) ਤੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%87) ਬਾਹਰਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF) ਕਛੂ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%9B%E0%A9%82) ਨ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8) ਹੋਵੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%B5%E0%A9%88) ਤੂੰ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%82%E0%A9%B0) ਆਪੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%87) ਕਾਰੈ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%88) ਲਾਵਣਿਆ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86) ॥੬॥
तुझ ते बाहरि कछू न होवै तूं आपे कारै लावणिआ ॥६॥
Ŧujẖ ṯe bāhar kacẖẖū na hovai ṯūʼn āpe kārai lāvaṇi▫ā. ||6||
Without You, nothing can be done. You Yourself have engaged all in their tasks. ||6||

ਆਪੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A9%87) ਮਾਰੇ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%87) ਆਪਿ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BF) ਜੀਵਾਏ (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%8F) ॥
आपे मारे आपि जीवाए ॥
Āpe māre āp jīvā▫e.
He Himself kills, and He Himself revives.
~SGGS JI ang 125

[amra]

Harjas Kaur you are using words like Dharmic and Kshatriya to justify political ends. The idea of a nation arose in 17th century europe. India was never conceived of as a nation before the british. Any idea of a united 'India' before the English is a fallacy. What you call the 'Sanatana Dharma' is not the real Santana Dharma but a bastardized conception of post colonial India. It has no roots in tradition, but is a modern phantasmagoric conception that enables Indian Politics to have a 'religion' in order to be like the semitic religion for the powerful european states. This 'religion'is then manipulated for political ends and to justify atrocities like having nuclear weapons. The structure which you promote and India endeveaours to imitate is the imperialistic structure that Britain used to loot the world. The underlying structure is the same, lack of individual freedom in subservience to the state, which is based on an economy that rapes nature and promotes consumerism. And on top of this you just add labels like Dharma and Kshatriya. In doing so you obliterate the meaning from these words, and put them at the service of the 'state' structure which underlies modern 'Sanatana Dharma'

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Amra, Harjas Kaur and all


Not wishing to indulge in this heated debate as there are claims and counter claims based on personal opinion on what Dharma is. All I can say is or observe is that, ahimsa only can not be an answer to all of India’s problem, in fact this policy that Gandhi followed although gained us the independence but at what price? Would this have worked against anyone else but brits? Gandhi has left us impotent.
Indians all over the world are a laughing stock an easy soft target , physically and politically. Muslims and Christians would get away with murder but the Hindus so much as raise their voice to defend themselves would get branded fanatics and the worst thing is our own press would be at the forefront dancing the tune of the west . This is the result of our secularism (completely bogus) which means broadly appease the minority ignore the Hindus. Anyone who knows Hindu dharma will know that it is most secular in nature so much that it does not insist that you be Hindu. Sad part is we are internally combusting.




India was never conceived of as a nation before the british. Any idea of a united 'India' before the English is a fallacy.

I take this exception when some one states this that that there was no united India, a lie fed by the brits and we believe it, amazing how we accept that and ignore what the history and Shastra says.
This land was called Bharat varsa, true enough it has many Rajyas but under a banner of one chkravati Raja.
Last one being Raja Pariksit who was sovereign ruler over the whole all the world, but if that is difficult to believe for some of us (not me) then look up the history of One of the greatest empires in the history of India was the Maurya Empire. It approximately lasted from 322 - 185 B.C. Most of India was united as a single entity by the great emperor Chandragupta Maurya. His son Bindusara extended the kingdom of Mauryas over almost the entire sub-continent. The Mauryan Empire had the most powerful military force in ancient India. The greatest emperor of the Maurya dynasty was Ashoka.

Jai Shree Krishna

[devotee]

Namaste Amra,


The idea of a nation arose in 17th century europe. India was never conceived of as a nation before the british. Any idea of a united 'India' before the English is a fallacy.

I am afraid you have simply forgotten Indian history. The idea of nation arose within India in the mind of ChAnkya in 320 BC. The united India under Chandragupta Maurya (in 300 BC) & Ashok was even greater than today's India. The concept of democracy came in Vaishali (now in Bihar) in 6th Century BC ( as recorded by Diodorus).


What you call the 'Sanatana Dharma' is not the real Santana Dharma but a bastardized conception of post colonial India.

So, the efforts of ShankarachArya (8 century AD) and the Saints belonging to Bhakti movement (14 Century to 17th Century) have simply gone waste !


It has no roots in tradition, but is a modern phantasmagoric conception that enables Indian Politics to have a 'religion' in order to be like the semitic religion for the powerful european states. This 'religion'is then manipulated for political ends and to justify atrocities like having nuclear weapons. The structure which you promote and India endeveaours to imitate is the imperialistic structure that Britain used to loot the world. The underlying structure is the same, lack of individual freedom in subservience to the state, which is based on an economy that rapes nature and promotes consumerism.

May I request you to please read the history of India and Hindus before using such denigrating words for our beloved nation and the great religion ?

OM

[amra]

please see the words i have put in quotation marks. 'Sanatana Dharma' is not the same as Sanatana Dharma. I am against the incorrect use of this concept as a tool for politics. I am trying to prevent it becoming dirty.

The nation state never existed in history before the 17th century. What you refer to is an empire. The nation state is a modern concept.

[Harjas Kaur]

"devotee has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space."

I want to communicate something privately with you. Can you please make room? Thanks.

[Harjas Kaur]

The idea of a nation arose in 17th century europe. India was never conceived of as a nation before the british. Any idea of a united 'India' before the English is a fallacy. What you call the 'Sanatana Dharma' is not the real Santana Dharma but a bastardized conception of post colonial India. It has no roots in tradition, but is a modern phantasmagoric conception that enables Indian Politics to have a 'religion' in order to be like the semitic religion for the powerful european states. This 'religion'is then manipulated for political ends and to justify atrocities like having nuclear weapons.
You are not a Hindu, but an enemy of Hindus.

[devotee]

Namaste Harjas Kaur ji,

Sorry, I forgot to clean my mail box. Now you can communicate.

OM

[devotee]

The nation state never existed in history before the 17th century. What you refer to is an empire. The nation state is a modern concept.

That is a lie Europeans historians propagate & you have believed that. First of all, the notion of a nation has nothing to do with the type of Governance whether an empire or democracy. The people should feel one-ness on similar ground i.e. inhabiting same land, culture etc. & that was in India even in the time of Chadragupta Maurya.

OM

[amra]

I never said I was a Hindu. I am not affiliated to any religion. There are objective truths of esotericism everywhere why limit yourself to one.

Maybe I should have said the idea of nationalism. Can you say that before the british that India had a set boundary which defined a parcel of land as 'India'. Or were the borders more fluid. We must consider the world we live in today and not close our eyes to it. This world has become smaller an Ancient Indian would not have conceived his identity as consisting of him/her being part of a nation as opposed to other nations. The world was smaller, anyone living outside the boundaries of the empire was unclean a mlechha. The modern nation is inconceivable to the ancient indian, as is the internet and other technologies. The way we understand a nation was not their understanding, therefore it is incorrect and dangerous to use terms like dharma and kshatriya in modern context.

Please Ms Harjas Kaur my only enemy is ignorance. I do not have many evil enemies waiting to destroy me as you seem to have created for yourself and India. My India has no enemies. Which India would people rather live in one beset by 'enemies' on all sides or one with no enemies.

[devotee]

I never said I was a Hindu. I am not affiliated to any religion. There are objective truths of esotericism everywhere why limit yourself to one.

Then why did you say that you were a Sikh ?


Maybe I should have said the idea of nationalism. Can you say that before the british that India had a set boundary which defined a parcel of land as 'India'.

Boundaries may change due to foreign aggression or even due to ambitious plans of some powerful people within a country ... that doesn't say that people didn't identify themselves as belonging to one land. If what you say is true then Germany as a nation should have never disintegrated, Russia as a nation should not have got disintegrated. Or do you say that their identity as a nation was fallacious ? China conquered Tibet & changed its boundary. Does it mean that China had a fallacious sense of being a Nation ?


We must consider the world we live in today and not close our eyes to it. This world has become smaller an Ancient Indian would not have conceived his identity as consisting of him/her being part of a nation as opposed to other nations. The world was smaller, anyone living outside the boundaries of the empire was unclean a mlechha.

Here you are caught off-guard ! It was not the boundary of an empire but of the country. Do you mean to say that Hindus of one princely state in 18th-19th century considered Hindus from other princely state mlechhas ? Please read more about India, sir !


The modern nation is inconceivable to the ancient indian, as is the internet and other technologies. The way we understand a nation was not their understanding

May be not exactly. The meaning of a word keeps changing but that doesn't mean that the idea never existed in whatever form.


therefore it is incorrect and dangerous to use terms like dharma and kshatriya in modern context.

How is it wrong & dangerous ? How are they connected with the term "Nation" at all ? Do you mean to say that these terms came into being after colonial rule ?

--------------------

I am sorry to say that use of such harsh language against India as a nation and Hindus identity arises suspicion in me on your intentions. If I am proved wrong, I will be very happy.

OM

[amra]

I was raised in a Sikh family and i revere the Sikh Guru's and writings.

Devotee, I am not against India I am against imagination. Was ancient India part of vast economic system that spans the entire globe. An economic system that promotes greed and low morality just to sell products. DId ancient Indians watch MTV and have their thought process manipulated by the media and advertising. We have seen an exponential rise in the false and ephemeral mostly promoted by the vast economic system India is desperately trying to be part of. IMporting ideas from ancient India and transposing them onto this situation is unforgivable. Like you said the meaning of words change and in these days in maha kali yuga when someone says he is dharmic the underlying meaning of this word may be adharmic.

When a cancer spreads in someones body he can fight a million exernal 'adharmic' forces but eventually the cancer will consume him or a portion of him. Nuclear weapons are a cancer, any state that has nuclear weapons is courting its own destruction.

[TatTvamAsi]

Bharat (India), was, is, and ALWAYS WILL BE a HINDU NATION; a NATION OF HINDUS, BY HINDUS, and FOR HINDUS! There is not an iota of doubt about this!

Bharat is not a place for untouchables (muslims/christians/communists) as it is the embodiment of the Divine Mother.

Idiots like amra keep propagating this lie that "India was not a country prior to the 17th century" which causes tremendous grief and harm to Hindus worldwide!

After all, these pot-smoking hippie liberal pseudo-secularists like amra don't have the guts to counter the muslims and christians and instead only raise their weak voices against Hindus and Hinduism.

I am SO GLAD that India is expanding its military powers and especially its nuclear arsenal! :D

Along with muslims, christians, and communists, these brain-dead pseudo-secularists like amra must first be booted out.

JAI HIND!

[TatTvamAsi]

I was raised in a Sikh family and i revere the Sikh Guru's and writings.


No wonder you're against India and Hinduism! A sikh from Britain? I can definitely sense some khalistani attitude in you.

Oh, and nukes were already being deployed in ancient times using mental powers you nitwit!

[vasudeva datta]

What well-expressed and lucid truth is coming from this message! What wisdom and profundity! My obeisances to you Amra, thousands of times. I hope your message of peace and respect for mother earth will not be drowned out by the multitude of hatred that is pushing this world to the brink of disaster of epic proportions. Nuking Pakistan is not the means to eradicate terror. If violence is used, it should be with justice, towards the perpetrators, and not involve the massacre of INNOCENT millions.



Identifying nuclear weapons usage with Kshatriya Dharam is a very bad thing to do. What bravery and Veerta does a person need to press a button to drop a bomb and destroy not a place called Pakistan, but actually burn and scorch the body of your Mother. There was an American Indian who would not plough fields because he said this is violence to mother Earth who bears us all. There is no Pakistan anywhere except in the hate filled kumati durbudhi of pro nuclear people. It in reality is some land on Earth which is part of mother Nature. Do you know you idiotic fools how much devastation radioactivity causes in the surrounding nature? Kshatriya Dharam is not to destroy the hand that feeds us i.e. mother earth. To endorse nuclear weapons is to support the forces that oppose life. The forces that feed on human suffering, are you people aware of these energies that eat pain and suffering? They are the filth of the universe and they helped evil men create the atom bomb because it creates food for them in the form of fear, tension, anxiety and terror. The atom bomb spreads these anti-life emotions and energies to provide these beings with food. These beings are not friends of Sanatana DHarma.

[Harjas Kaur]

"I do not have many evil enemies waiting to destroy me as you seem to have created for yourself and India."

You are the cancer to speak this way, and weaken the communal harmony by denying Dharmic wisdom which includes the Sikh Gurbani with polluted concepts adopted by the British mlecchas.

Isn't it sad that Khalistani Sikhs talk so loudly about Sikh Kingdom and rulership of India. Yet Sikhs never ruled India, they ruled principalities just like the Rajput princes ruled Nation-states within Hindustan. And at first sign of overwhelming force of British, they became sepoys to fight on behalf of their new Masters AGAINST united India, like traitors who sell out for promise of a kingdom.

To this day, this corruption remains in the Panth to honor treason and promote weakening, disgrace and destruction of Hindu Rashtra.


ਖੁਰਾਸਾਨ ਖਸਮਾਨਾ ਕੀਆ ਹਿੰਦੁਸਤਾਨੁ ਡਰਾਇਆ ॥
khuraasaan khasamaanaa keeaa hindhusathaan ddaraaeiaa ||
Having attacked Khuraasaan, Baabar terrified Hindustan.
~SGGS Ji ang 360

If Hindustan doesn't exist until the British Raj, what is Guruji talking about hundreds of years before?


ਜਾਤਿ ਵਰਨ ਤੁਰਕ ਅਰੁ ਹਿੰਦੂ ॥
jaath varan thurak ar hindhoo ||
Social classes, races, Muslims and Hindus;
~SGGS Ji ang 237
Muslims is improper translation here. Guruji's bani is giving comparison between Turks, a Nation and Hindus, a Nation which Singh Sabha scholars have mistranslated as religious based identities. THAT is evidence of manipulation of British to interpolate religious texts to strongly demarcate RELIGIOUS divisions.


ਹਿੰਦੂ ਪੂਜੈ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥
hindhoo poojai dhaehuraa musalamaan maseeth ||
The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque.
~SGGS Ji ang 875
In this tuuk Gurbani is distinguishing between Hindu's of Hindustan who practice Hindu religion, and Muslim religion which is also identified as Afghanistan's Turkic-Mughals, descendants of Mongols who became enculturated with Persian heritage. So it is clear even in Gurbani that a HINDU RASHTRA existed long before the British.

Or are you calling Sikh Gurbani lies?

In justice, Sikhs have really inherited a dose of lies. What was done to Maharaja Dulip Singh is a perfect example. He was separated from his mother, his country, his heritage, convinced of Christianity and made to convert, cut his hairs, marry a white wife, and later his offspring were all sterile due to machinations of British intelligence services to cut off his lineage.

And British Sikhs today still wear British uniforms proudly and owe allegience to British crown while reviling Bharat Mata Ji and spitting on own noble Sikh history in favor of those who destroyed their own Maharaja.

What's shameful is the deep and bitter betrayal and the lies that Sikhs have been led to believe which separate them from their precious Dharma, their TRUE Gurus, their Racial brothers and sisters, and their TRUE Snatan Vedic heritage. Talk about self-hatred.


ਹਿੰਦੂ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਸਾਲਾਹਨਿ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
hindhoo saalaahee saalaahan dharasan roop apaar ||
The Hindus praise the Praiseworthy Lord; the Blessed Vision of His Darshan, His form is incomparable.
~SGGS Ji ang 465

Do you know of any Muslims who would make this claim of Hindu religion? Why praise foreigners who hate your heritage and wish destruction on everything the Sikh Gurus fought and died to preserve?

Well, if you detest nuclear weapons so badly, go join a forum and gripe about the allies of British, the Americans and all the nuclear garbage they are unleashing along with CIA Christian missionaries to spread more shame and hatred of rich and beautiful Sanatan heritage. Why reserve your criticisms and virulence for a "Hindu" forum? India isn't unleashing nuclear garbage.

By heaping hate on Bharat Mata Ji, you are promoting self-hatred. Go hate yourself on some British forum.

[devotee]

Namaste Amra,


I was raised in a Sikh family and i revere the Sikh Guru's and writings.

I am a Hindu & I also revere Sikh Gurus and their writings. I love going to Gurudwaras.



I am not against India I am against imagination. Was ancient India part of vast economic system that spans the entire globe. An economic system that promotes greed and low morality just to sell products. DId ancient Indians watch MTV and have their thought process manipulated by the media and advertising. We have seen an exponential rise in the false and ephemeral mostly promoted by the vast economic system India is desperately trying to be part of. IMporting ideas from ancient India and transposing them onto this situation is unforgivable. Like you said the meaning of words change and in these days in maha kali yuga when someone says he is dharmic the underlying meaning of this word may be adharmic.

May be I got you wrong. If you are against Western Consumerism being imported to pollute our culture, if you are against distorted value systems of life being imported from West to India ... I am solidly with you.

However, saying that the idea of a nation was only post-colonial is extremely harmful for a country like India. That is what the British always talked & even believed that India after independence would break into many states. We were always one. The terms BhAratvarsha, AryAvarta were not brought to India by the British. The term Hindu actually encompasses all faiths which were born & nurtured in the land called India today. Just think of it :

In 500 BC, the Buddha & MahAvir went from place to place & united people with their ideas. It was cutting across many dynasties & kigdoms existing within that time. Then came Chanakya & Chandragupta in 320 BC & they united whole of India with their one economic policy, administration and defense systems. Then came the invaders from outside like KushAns but they got absorbed not only in India but also the Hindus. The real problem started with the invasion of Islamic looters who came from outside & looted India. However, after sometime they were also absorbed in India but they remained separate from the Hindus. Some of them tried to bring India under one rule, one economic & administrative system. Then final assault on India was from the English. They destroyed the economic structure which was more or less similar throughout the country.

India stood as one (including the Hindus & Muslims) against the British & that is why we are what we are today. The notion of a nation is not born out of the blue. It has to be cultivated & cared for otherwise the history is witness to disintegration of many nations in the past. Do you know how much has been done to inculcate this feeling by our forefathers for last thousands of years ? You are simply negating the tremendous efforts made to unite Hindus & India by Chandragupta Maurya, Chankya, Ashok, Akbar, Buddha, Mahavir, Shakaracharya, Guru NAnak, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Kabir, Swami Vivekananda & many many others. If Gandhi & similar thinkers were not there, India would have got divided into so-called Upper Caste Hindus & Lower Caste Hindus. Here, you, living in a foreign land, are trying to find the fault lines & propagating this dangerous idea that before colonial rule their was no concept of a nation called India/Bharat/Aryavarta ? Tell me, how can feel assured that you are my & this country's friend ?

The British had predicted that India would disintegrate & Pakistan will flourish as a nation. What happened is in front of you. Which country is flourishing as nation which is disintegrating ? Why ? There are always some fault lines in all countries & there are things which bind people into one nation. What do you want to promote ?

Still some people are not happy. The Chinese somehow feel that India one day will split into 20 different nations ? Do you buy their idea ?

OM

[vasudeva datta]

Dear Harjas,

you seem unaware of the power of ideas- what starts off as a thought, as a discussion, becomes in due course, action. Do you think that Al Quaeda does not have discussions which rationalize mass slaughter, as is going on here? The point is not to stop discussing, but to spread a culture of love and acceptance- not of the perpetrators, but of the millions of their innocent countrymen who are themselves terrorized by these bullies.

No, we don't have mad scientists with itchy fingers here, but the madness and the itchy fingers seem to be well worked into the suggestion to "nuke the wastelands of Pakistan" Don't know if it was a scientist making the statement, but it seems irrelevant...

Another point. The alternative is not to become pacifists, but advocates of justice. Justice does not mean you kill millions of innocent humans, animals, and poison the air, water and earth for all life, just because the guilty are hiding among them. Get off your ass, and join the brave soldiers trying to flush them out of their hiding places, so many of them sacrificing their lives in the process. They could have just dropped a bomb, and be home in time for dinner and catch up on the latest internet gossip...they have instead gone the hard route and tried their best to meet these brutes eye to eye in combat. Don't try to justify this laziness, inhumanity and universal hatred...it is the exact opposite of dharma, especially of the ksatriya.



We aren't having a discussion of mad scientists with itchy fingers waiting to "push a magic button" and do evil and pretend it's Ksattriya Dharm.

the fourth issue:

Obliteration of the people and practices of Sanatana Dharma.


In the context of this discussion, and it is only a discussion. These are words, not acts. And discussions alone are not condemnatory. We are striving to find the true moral compass in all of these issues.

Next, there isn't some mad scientist waiting to unleash "the bomb." The nuclear contamination has already been released at low levels in the form of Depleted Uranium. DU has already contaminated the Punjab and is causing mass increase in cancers, birth defects, genetic damage and deformities.

So what are we to do?

Become pacifists and let ruin and destruction completely eradicate India, Indian people, and hatred and persecution overwhelm Hindu people, heritage and history?

If Kshattriya Dharm is not about the duty of defending and fighting to prevent military destruction and defilement of Sanatana Dharma, then Kshattriya Dharm is useless. The dangers are real.)

[vasudeva datta]

It is not violence on a small scale to even drop one nuclear bomb. Go research what happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Get some images of children screaming with their skin peeling off, and people walking around dragging skin behind them. Have a think about what you are agreeing to. This is one nuclear bomb. Would you agree to have it droipped on the villages of your children if there happened to be terrorists in that village? What about the village of your mother? Your best friend? Wake up! Think about what you are condoning! These people, the VAST MAJORITY of them - have done nothing to you, and nothing to India

Oh "devotee" ---wake up and smell the roses- on tombs of the innocent and young- if there is any roses left that can grow in the contaminated soil...



Namaste Harjas Kaur ji, Amra & all,

I agree with Harjas Kaur ji.

Sometimes it is important to have the threat of violence to stop violence and sometimes there is a need to even indulge in violence at a smaller scale to stop a future large scale violence.

Our National Poet RAmdhAri Singh Dinkar said it beautifully :

"Kshama shobhati us bhujanga ko jiske paas garal ho l
Usko kya jo dant-heen vish rahit vineet saral ho !"

===> The virtue of "forgiving" shines like an ornament to only that Snake which possesses poison (& therefore has power to strike & kill) & not to those who are toothless, without the power of poisonous bite and simpletons.

These lines were written by him after failure of Nehru's policy of Panchsheel with China when China stabbed India in its back & Indian Army was badly humiliated by Chinese Army in 1962 because it was not prepared to fight.

OM

[Harjas Kaur]

"you seem unaware of the power of ideas- what starts off as a thought, as a discussion, becomes in due course, action. Do you think that Al Quaeda does not have discussions which rationalize mass slaughter, as is going on here? The point is not to stop discussing, but to spread a culture of love and acceptance- not of the perpetrators, but of the millions of their innocent countrymen who are themselves terrorized by these bullies." You seem unable to measure context. A girl promoting the threat of nuclear annihilation "in kind" as has been continually threatened by Pakistani Mujahideen groups has a "deterrent effect." Have you ever heard Generals communicating like school teachers?

"Hi, we know you have the bomb and was that you who threatened to obliterate us the other day? Well, in deepest meditation we want to encourage you of our peaceful intentions..."

Is there any military person on any planet who speaks with that mentality?

No.

Because a large part of warfare is psychological intimidation. Even Punjabi is called as "thundering speech" which is often a bit harsh, a bit menacing. Because that is the language of soldiers, not monks. The "threat" implicit in the speech has a "deterrent effect" of making a hostile power reconsider the wisdom of it's options.

I don't think any "gentle" monk can possibly have a concept of what psychological chess is going on. When India presents the face of a female child making such determined threats to Islamic jihadis, it's a cultural wake up call that even India's females and children won't tolerate bullying or nonsense.

And that is the PROPER attitude of a Kshattriya.


"Justice does not mean you kill millions of innocent humans, animals, and poison the air, water and earth for all life, just because the guilty are hiding among them. Get off your ass, and join the brave soldiers trying to flush them out of their hiding places, so many of them sacrificing their lives in the process."You have no concept of what you're talking about which again simply proves pacifistic ashrama people have no business representing politics or you will go the way of the fiasco of Gandhi.

You know nothing about me, what I have done or not done, what I have supported or not supported.

We all die. But no one has to live under threats of terrorism and intimidation like a dog.No one should have to tolerate the indignity of violence targeting the innocent or billions of dollars put into an internationally illegal nuclear program pointed at India!


May I ask WHY your self-negating and self-righteous self DOESN'T CONDEMN THE NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND THREATS OF INDIAN ANNIHILATION BY PAKISTAN?

And what exactly in hell are you doing about it besides advising people to disarm themselves and grovel in the dirt like dogs?

[Harjas Kaur]

"-wake up and smell the roses- on tombs of the innocent and young- if there is any roses left that can grow in the contaminated soil..."
Seriously. You will just get yourself blown up promoting that "peaceful" ideology to Pakistanis and be incapable of preserving even your own life. When you get off "your ass" I want to see how much is accomplished by it. And BTW this is a terrible way to address forum participants.

In the meantime sensible people in government will continue to be sensible in protecting the Indian Nation from harm. Thanks Mata Ji! Take your anger to people who have the power to actually do something about it, such as government. Why wail on me? This is a discussion forum, to "discuss" not to "blame and condemn other viewpoints."

Go condemn the Mumbai bombers and the Jihadis. I'm sure they have forums.

[Harjas Kaur]

This is one nuclear bomb. Would you agree to have it droipped on the villages of your children if there happened to be terrorists in that village? What about the village of your mother? Your best friend? Wake up! Think about what you are condoning! These people, the VAST MAJORITY of them - have done nothing to you, and nothing to IndiaThat is PRECISELY what this young girl is trying to PREVENT!


Pakistan Is Rapidly Adding Nuclear Arms, U.S. Says
Published: May 17, 2009
WASHINGTON — Members of Congress have been told in confidential briefings that Pakistan (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/pakistan/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) is rapidly adding to its nuclear arsenal even while racked by insurgency, raising questions on Capitol Hill about whether billions of dollars in proposed military aid might be diverted to Pakistan’s nuclear program. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/18/world/asia/18nuke.html
Pakistan Expanding Nuclear Arsenal, U.S. Officials Say
Monday, May 18, 2009
U.S. officials say Pakistan is increasing the number of weapons in its nuclear arsenal, raising questions in Washington about the wisdom of supplying the South Asian country with billions of dollars in defense assistance, the New York Times reported today (see GSN (http://www.globalsecuritynewswire.org/gsn/nw_20090515_4408.php), May 15).
Indications have come in both closed and open meetings between administration officials and lawmakers.
Adm. Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, confirmed during a Senate hearing last week that he had seen proof of an expanding Pakistani nuclear stockpile. He did not elaborate.
"We see them scaling up their centrifuge facilities," which could be used to produce weapon-grade uranium, said David Albright, head of the Institute for Science and International Security (see GSN (http://www.globalsecuritynewswire.org/gsn/nw_20090424_5885.php), April 24). The scope of the uranium effort is not known, and Islamabad could produce weapon-grade plutonium at nuclear reactors now under construction.


The revelations come amid continued concern about the security of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal as the government battles the Taliban and other extremists. It also could fly in the face of U.S. President Barack Obama's push for an international treaty against production of fissile material for nuclear weapons, and more generally to press nuclear disarmament.
The United States could supply $3 billion over the next five years to help the Pakistani government counter insurgent groups, along with $7.5 billion in civilian assistance. While the funding is not marked for the Pakistani nuclear program, some worry that Islamabad might take savings that relief creates elsewhere in the budget and reinvest it in nuclear weapons. It is not clear whether these concerns would prompt Washington to reconsider its aid to Pakistan.


"The Bush administration turned a blind eye to this being ramped up," Albright said. "And of course, with enough pressure, all this could be preventable." http://www.globalsecuritynewswire.org/gsn/nw_20090518_8970.php


Taliban's Gains in Pakistan Have Washington Worried About Nuclear Security
The Pakistani president says the country's nuclear arsenal is safe
Posted May 8, 2009
The Taliban's advance was alarming enough to prompt an unusual declaration by Pakistan's president that the country's atomic arsenal is beyond the grasp of Islamist militants. "I want to assure the world that the nuclear capability of Pakistan is under safe hands," President Asif Ali Zardari insisted last week. His comments followed a chilling warning from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. "If the worst, the unthinkable, were to happen and this advancing Taliban—encouraged and supported by al Qaeda and other extremists—were to essentially topple the government for failure to beat them back, then they would have the keys to the nuclear arsenal of Pakistan," she said.

"We can't even contemplate that."

At his press conference last week, Obama addressed the issue: "We have huge strategic interests, huge national security interests in making sure that Pakistan is stable and that you don't end up having a nuclear-armed militant state."http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/national/2009/05/08/talibans-gains-in-pakistan-have-washington-worried-about-nuclear-security.html

You wake up and smell the roses over the tombs of Bharat's future and the tombs of Bharat's innocent children and mothers and fathers. India is NOT the aggressor here!

[vasudeva datta]

I am not talking about what a young girl is saying, but a grown man on this forum, on page 1 who suggested: "so killing the terrorists and other threats to India is more humane? And in that process, and infinitely worse, losing Indian lives in battle is better than nuking that putrid wasteland (pakistan)?"

That statement, and all the thereafter supporting ones, is what I am making a case against. It is foolish to use nukes for anything other than deterrent, and even then it is like the safety of brandishing knives. Better to see what you have in common, and gosh it is a lot! Wow, we are all living. We are even all human. We all love our families, and really really don't want them to be roasted alive. We fear, we feel, we desire, we dream at night, we worship, we are brothers and sisters. A message of peace and goodwill is more effective than military one-upmanship, not that the latter may not be required under the present circumstances. Eradicating hatred, starting on this forum, would be a great step forward- ever heard of the "butterfly effect?" Where is your hatred and desire to "nuke" all the innocent citizens of Pakistan going to get you? If you hate the terrorists so much, go out like a man and fight them eye-to-eye. That is ksatriya...



You seem unable to measure context. A girl promoting the threat of nuclear annihilation "in kind" as has been continually threatened by Pakistani Mujahideen groups has a "deterrent effect." Have you ever heard Generals communicating like school teachers?

"Hi, we know you have the bomb and was that you who threatened to obliterate us the other day? Well, in deepest meditation we want to encourage you of our peaceful intentions..."

Is there any military person on any planet who speaks with that mentality?

No.

Because a large part of warfare is psychological intimidation. Even Punjabi is called as "thundering speech" which is often a bit harsh, a bit menacing. Because that is the language of soldiers, not monks. The "threat" implicit in the speech has a "deterrent effect" of making a hostile power reconsider the wisdom of it's options.

I don't think any "gentle" monk can possibly have a concept of what psychological chess is going on. When India presents the face of a female child making such determined threats to Islamic jihadis, it's a cultural wake up call that even India's females and children won't tolerate bullying or nonsense.

And that is the PROPER attitude of a Kshattriya.

You have no concept of what you're talking about which again simply proves pacifistic ashrama people have no business representing politics or you will go the way of the fiasco of Gandhi.

You know nothing about me, what I have done or not done, what I have supported or not supported.

We all die. But no one has to live under threats of terrorism and intimidation like a dog.No one should have to tolerate the indignity of violence targeting the innocent or billions of dollars put into an internationally illegal nuclear program pointed at India!


May I ask WHY your self-negating and self-righteous self DOESN'T CONDEMN THE NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND THREATS OF INDIAN ANNIHILATION BY PAKISTAN?

And what exactly in hell are you doing about it besides advising people to disarm themselves and grovel in the dirt like dogs?

[devotee]

It is not violence on a small scale to even drop one nuclear bomb. Go research what happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Get some images of children screaming with their skin peeling off, and people walking around dragging skin behind them. Have a think about what you are agreeing to. This is one nuclear bomb. Would you agree to have it droipped on the villages of your children if there happened to be terrorists in that village? What about the village of your mother? Your best friend? Wake up! Think about what you are condoning! These people, the VAST MAJORITY of them - have done nothing to you, and nothing to India

Oh "devotee" ---wake up and smell the roses- on tombs of the innocent and young- if there is any roses left that can grow in the contaminated soil...

Namaste Vasudeva,

I don't think I have advocated use of Atom Bomb against any country including Pakistan. No, I am dead against against even conventional war against any country. I am sorry, if any of my posts have given this impression.

However, Atom Bomb is a good threat that we must keep so that actual war should not escalate. We should never attack anyone but we should be fully prepared for any eventuality. We can't afford getting caught unaware like in 1962.

OM

[vasudeva datta]

Sorry, I got confused about what you meant. I think we all agree that nukes have a good deterent effect where one's neighbours have them, but gradual disarmament must also happen. Like in a gunfight- everyone drop pistols together, drop ammunition, knives- you do and I'll do. Step by step- I respect your right to life as you respect mine. As your respect grows, so will mine. Lets try it. Words of peace, not hatred, will facilitate this, nothing less. Then and then only can we sleep in peace. You must acknowledge that the majority of Pakistnais are not terrorists and just want peace.



Namaste Vasudeva,

I don't think I have advocated use of Atom Bomb against any country including Pakistan. No, I am dead against against even conventional war against any country. I am sorry, if any of my posts have given this impression.

However, Atom Bomb is a good threat that we must keep so that actual war should not escalate. We should never attack anyone but we should be fully prepared for any eventuality. We can't afford getting caught unaware like in 1962.

OM

[amra]

Dear devotee, please accept my apologies, i did not mean to suggest India was not united in the way you have written. I just mean to say that the modern global economy and all that goes along with it, is something our ancestors did not experience.

Ms Harjas Kaur I am not a khalistani, i do not support such bakwaas. In Gurbani there is no where mentioned a global political economy that India as a nation is part of. This is my point. The nation India now is much different from the time before the British. Using certain terms may not be appropriate under todays conditions or we must use especial care in the way we use these concepts.

This young girl is not a jatt in the pind who has had his whiskey bottle stolen, that she must use thundering speech. There is a thing called the media which consists of tv internet etc. which effects millions of lifes some people may not discern that she is using 'thundering speech'. It is a means to stir up hatred against people. Ms Harjas Kaur do you follow the example of Guru Gobind Singh Ji who fought enemies without showing any hate towards them.

I do not hate India or myself, but i don't think it is correct to promote the use of nuclear weapons through the ideas of kshatriya dharam and Dharma. \the first reason is that these two terms are ambiguous. What dharam do you mean when you say Dharmic, are you reffering to the dharma of a thief? there is a Hindu Shaastra that deals with thievery. Do you mean by dharmic istri dharma, the duties of a women? PLease specify what is meant by dharmic. Or are you using it as a merely emotive term to invoke the emotions of the lay people towards hating your perceived enemies?

And please stop demonising me Ms Harjas Kaur, i do not have any love for Pakistanis, I talk to Indians and about India because I am of Indian descent and am indebted to India. You have fallen into the trap of 'protecting the good' the good needs no protection. You have called me a cancer you are partially correct i have suffered from cancer in the past which has sapped my energy if i was on full energy i probably would not come on here anyway.

[Harjas Kaur]

"Ms Harjas Kaur I am not a khalistani, i do not support such bakwaas." Do you stop to examine why anyone would think you were? Quite independant of the debate about nuclear weapons you claim this:


"Thirdly behind this defence of Sanatana Dharma is an ideaology which is the legacy of the british and the western world."
"Sanatana Dharma cannot be destroyed physically, thisis the essence of my point."These are opinions only. Tibetan Buddhists have a different opinion about the Communist Chinese oppression:

"the Jewel Dharma Land of Tibet, has been destroyed, or is very close to being destroyed. The Dharma was almost destroyed in it. Yet His Holiness came out to us, and he is still active in the world. " http://www.tibetoffice.org/en/index.php?url_channel_id=84&url_subchannel_id=86&url_publish_channel_id=1326&well_id=2So clearly yours is not the only view on the subject. The Dalai Lama Himself feared for the eradication of Tibetan Buddhi Dharma. So since this Dharmic path exists on the physical plane, most certainly it can cease to exist on the physical plane.

Moreover, you have the audacity to claim that physical defense is some kind of sin originating from desire to imitate the British. I think your views are outlandish. How do you think India has survived hundreds of years of onslaughts with an intact culture, and intact religion? Without Armies?

And you're saying it's immoral for a Nation to have a self-defense or any modern economy.



"The structure which you promote and India endeveaours to imitate is the imperialistic structure that Britain used to loot the world. The underlying structure is the same, lack of individual freedom in subservience to the state, which is based on an economy that rapes nature and promotes consumerism. And on top of this you just add labels like Dharma and Kshatriya. In doing so you obliterate the meaning from these words."You go on about how I am "demonizing you personally." Yet you're the one going on about me being demonically immoral. Not just the POV, but me as a person taking a side in a debate. What are you going on about here? "The structure I promote?" Do you really give me so much credit and power as to believe I promote the structure of modern Indian society? And I am guilty for all it's ills? I'm guilty for air pollution and water pollution and pesticide use? What are you talking about "structure?" And I am single-handedly destroying the meaning of the terms Dharma and Kshattriya. Did I so accuse you?



"Anyway your argument is purely political, which means it is for worldly ends which is for maya which is for me demonic.

You use the standard tactics of western democracies to keep the population in fear and subjugation i.e. an evil enemy waiting to rape their wives and eat their children."Here you accuse me of "tactics of fear and subjugation" as if I have no right to present my honest opinion without it being insulted as some machination of slavery? You accuse me of being worldly and demonic. What kind of spiritual person are you to just go on about my character and not even the issues?

"when maya becomes your only aim and goal in life it becomes demonic"

Please Ms Harjas Kaur my only enemy is ignorance. I do not have many evil enemies waiting to destroy me as you seem to have created for yourself and India. My India has no enemies. And here you are saying I am ignorant and I am your enemy and that there are no real physical enemies who threaten the Indian state but I make it up out of my demonic mind? You are superior, with a snap of fingers and a wink, "YOUR" India has no enemies. Well, isn't that nice.

"Sanatana Dharma cannot be destroyed physically, this is the essence of my point. It can only be destroyed by associating with decomposing ideas in the guise of Snatana Dharma. The sad irony is that people like Harjas Kaur who see much Good in Sanatana Dharma and are undoutedly very good people will destroy the Sanatana Dharma in their need to protect it. As always incomplete and partial knowledgee or truth can be dangerous."You see it's not a discussion. You've turned it into a criticism of my perceived shortcomings. My ideas are "decomposing ideas.

Communists and Jihadis can't destroy Sanatana Dharma but MY personal decomposing ideas can. You're positively insulting! Just because you don't like my opinions doesn't mean that I'm demonic. And then go on about how I'm demonizing you.


You're demonizing yourself when you make outrageous claims that India as a modern state has no legitimacy. You might as well work for the ISI. And who knows, maybe you do. I for one don't believe you're 89 years old.

And don't tell me there is no such thing as Hindustan or Hindustani culture or that Nation of India is comprised of separate things all fakely wrapped together without unity. Because that IS a Khalistani dogma, that Hindu religion doesn't exist and Nation of India is a colonial enslavement of various principalities all deserving their "freedom." And isn't that exactly what you said?



The underlying structure is the same, lack of individual freedom in subservience to the state,

And such ideologies have as their aim the destruction of Hindu Rastra and the endangerment of the physical unity of India. And hence my comment that you are an enemy of Hindus and an enemy of India.


"The nation state never existed in history before the 17th century. What you refer to is an empire. The nation state is a modern concept."Are you insinuating people need to live like cavemen to properly observe Dharma? And that having a modern economy is some kind of materialistic "sin," even as it brings the Nation out of poverty and is beginning to alleviate tremendous suffering with what economies can buy, such as medical care and reform of Judicial systems and improvement of education?



"which is based on an economy that rapes nature and promotes consumerism."
You see I find this entire line of thought ridiculous. You're writing on a computer, which is a modern convenience. But that is not immoral. But I am guilty of promoting the structure of modern India as a Nation, with an economy, and that is immoral. By what convoluted logic?
--------------------
Does it occur to you that Armies have been fighting to preserve Hindustani people, culture, religious observances, and justice for centuries? And that they did this physically?

Then, you impose the ludicrous constraint, they can only do it physically if it's an equal hand to hand or sword to sword combat as if warfare was a gentleman's dual! And with your constant accusations of "demonic" and "immoral" one can only conclude that waging of any proper or modern warfare is considered by you to be evil and adharmic.

And since you further claim:


"The idea of a nation arose in 17th century europe. India was never conceived of as a nation before the british. Any idea of a united 'India' before the English is a fallacy."Going by this "logic" India has no right to assert Nationhood in any meaningful or modern context without incurring "sin," or being accused of some degraded imitation of the West? Do you really believe this?

So naturally people will confuse this kind of talk with the talk heard from radical Khalistanis who support Pakistan AGAINST the Indian state, as I do debate on those forums and have recently been engaged in a conversation most similar to your own, and the posters making the accusations were Khalistanis and Pakistanis heaping insufferable insult and abuse on Hindus and India.

So it isn't by coincidence people might conclude that is your point. If India has no right to Nationhood, why not go along with Chinese and Pakistani intelligence services designs and break it apart!

So from this conclusion of yours one has to assume you are an enemy of the Hindu people and certainly no respecter of the Indian Nation.



'Sanatana Dharma' is not the same as Sanatana Dharma. I am against the incorrect use of this concept as a tool for politics. I am trying to prevent it becoming dirty.
There are a lot of ways "dirty" can be construed. Anyone who supports the destruction of Indian National unity can be considered "dirty" also. Everything is perspective. You should take a good look in the mirror.

Devotee, I am not against India I am against imagination. Was ancient India part of vast economic system that spans the entire globe. An economic system that promotes greed and low morality just to sell products. DId ancient Indians watch MTV and have their thought process manipulated by the media and advertising. We have seen an exponential rise in the false and ephemeral mostly promoted by the vast economic system India is desperately trying to be part of. IMporting ideas from ancient India and transposing them onto this situation is unforgivable.


Like you said the meaning of words change and in these days in maha kali yuga when someone says he is dharmic the underlying meaning of this word may be adharmic.

When a cancer spreads in someones body he can fight a million exernal 'adharmic' forces but eventually the cancer will consume him or a portion of him. Nuclear weapons are a cancer, any state that has nuclear weapons is courting its own destruction.So India can't be forgiven the materialism of it's existance as a modern entity. And I, for promoting the idea that military defense of India is Dharmic and thus UNFORGIVABLE, because ancient ideas bear no relation to modern realities without becoming "dirty." Or perhaps you think them, "imagination." You do directly accuse me of being "Adharmic."

YOU were the one who brought up the term cancer in form of accusations against my person and my personal viewpoints.

So I am alternately a sinner, ignorant, rotting with decomposing destructive ideas, deluded by demonic Maya, a cancer, adharmic, unforgivable, dirty, full of imagination which is false, materialistic, political and worldly.

And then you go off about how I'm demonizing you. I think you need to take a good long look in the mirror.

I'm sorry you hated my viewpoints so much that you felt you had to trash the legitimacy of India and everything about my character to prove something about "Dharma." But I sincerely do believe you are an enemy of Hindu's pretending to be a friend.

The Khalistanis on the anti-Sikh propaganda forum under the topic Hindu-Sikh Unity were not as hateful toward my character as you, the friend of Hindus. And that my dear, is the honest truth.

[vasudeva datta]

Amra. again you have struck at the heart of the issue with clarity. India is indeed buying into this consumerism cancer. India used to be synonymous with spirituality. If anyone wanted spiritual answers to life's questions, they turned to India. I myself did, in the '70's and was captivated by her profundity of scriptural wisdom. So many did, and were satisfied beyond their expectations. These days, when people hear the word "India" they think of telemarketing - some guy in India trying to sell you something useless on the phone while you try to have dinner. They think of a poor type of capitalism, where there is a huge gap between the rich and poor, they think of open sewers and slums, and a strange and bewilderring mixture of what they see as superstition among the village folk, corruption in the government, and money-making in the general populace. Thank you for your lucid remarks. You are a true friend of Hinduism.



I was raised in a Sikh family and i revere the Sikh Guru's and writings.

Devotee, I am not against India I am against imagination. Was ancient India part of vast economic system that spans the entire globe. An economic system that promotes greed and low morality just to sell products. DId ancient Indians watch MTV and have their thought process manipulated by the media and advertising. We have seen an exponential rise in the false and ephemeral mostly promoted by the vast economic system India is desperately trying to be part of. IMporting ideas from ancient India and transposing them onto this situation is unforgivable. Like you said the meaning of words change and in these days in maha kali yuga when someone says he is dharmic the underlying meaning of this word may be adharmic.

When a cancer spreads in someones body he can fight a million exernal 'adharmic' forces but eventually the cancer will consume him or a portion of him. Nuclear weapons are a cancer, any state that has nuclear weapons is courting its own destruction.

[Harjas Kaur]

India is indeed buying into this consumerism cancer. India used to be synonymous with spirituality. If anyone wanted spiritual answers to life's questions, they turned to India. I myself did, in the '70's and was captivated by her profundity of scriptural wisdom. So many did, and were satisfied beyond their expectations. These days, when people hear the word "India" they think of telemarketingIndia during the British Raj and the Mughal Raj and the Maharajas was less materialistic?

Actually, perhaps more, because all the opulence of those who accumulated wealth and power for themselves leaving millions to die of disease and starvation. At least as a Nation with an economy and a democracy, the poor and hungry are finding a means of altering that oppressive history.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Q1T9ut98l_U/SgI3-0WrkiI/AAAAAAAAAiA/6D1jPaYz32c/s400/crescent+emerald.jpg
Crescent Emerald belonging to Jagatjit Singh, the Maharaja of Kapurthala

http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachments/month_0703/governing_inferior_race_Ik8cRscawtgH.jpg
Perhaps the inequities created a hunger for material wealth. But it is naive to think India never had materialism in the past or was "holier" for not being an independent Nation capable of generating it's own wealth and sustenance.

http://exiledonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/inda-famine1.jpg
The British Raj abusing and corrupting caste system created a Colonial system which plundered and devastated the country while living in the same opulence of the Maharajas and Mughal Sultans before them.

The remnants of this history of injustice and oppression didn't exist in the 1970's? And people only became materialistic now. But they were holy before? And when people of India were victimized and plundered, were they even more holy?

There have always been holy people in India, and there always will be. But the general conditions of the population shouldn't have to suffer to prove someone's "ideas about holiness."

http://www.bollyvista.com/data/image/picture122_1.jpg
Bhagat Singh - legendary Indian revolutionary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_a4XiPe04Y


Vande Mataram
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1UgUpKz3Lc There is something holy about an independent Nation of India which is thriving and viable and establishing itself as a world power. People who worship the yesteryear of an unprotected, disease-ridden, impoverished colonial backwater are no friends of India, and certainly no friends of Sanatana Dharma. I think fantasies need to stop at the door in consideration of political realities.

There have always been and always will be holy people and materialistic people. Independent Nationhood with modern economy and Army doesn't change that. But lack of independent Nationhood magnifies the miseries.

~Jai Hind!

[vasudeva datta]

Shocking pictures! No I wasn't claiming that India was less materialistic in the '70's, but there is a difference between being plundered/victimized and being holy, and there is no reason to assume that consumerism is the answer to victimization. A society can intelligently defend its citizens, both from the marauding colonists themselves and from their idealogies, without compromising spiritual values- indeed protecting such values requires them to! The colonists have long gone, but their ideaologies have been embraced by India. She has lost the focus of her holy men- finding atmarama, satisfaction in the self, and not caring for loss or gain, materially speaking. Also lost, long before the '70s, the focus of the Supreme Brahman pervading all of nature, making it a sacred resting place for God. The result is an appalling environmental record, and social injustices. The isopanishad states that as everything belongs to the Supreme, no one should hanker for more than his quota. By the Supreme arrangement, there are no birds starving in the street, like we do see in human society. If a bag of grain is thrown in the street, each bird takes its quota and flies off. If a man sees it, he will grab the whole bag and take it home. Therefore, there is a dharmic requirement for grhastha householders to shout out into the street before their meals "if anyone is hungry, please come and eat!" So the vedic thing of sharing and caring has been replaced by the western thing of every man for himself. In the polluted atmosphere thus created, the caste system has become degraded from a paradigm of personal spiritual evolution, to its opposite- a tool of the false ego to lord it over others. (This happened long before the colonists, howerver...) Consumerism is not the answer, but a return to vedic values- not Indian traditions- but the essence which gave way to the traditions, which have in turn become disconnected from their roots, and thus uprooted, serve little value. For example, the dowry- originally an expression of a fathers love for his daughter, it has become degraded to the point where no villager wants a girl, and many get ultrasounds for the purpose of aborting girl babies, mainly because of the future dowry involved. So we do not have to return to useless traditions, nor do we have to avoid material progress altogether, if it can serve some spiritual value, either by using it to spread a message of spiritual brotherhood, as our good brother Amra is doing on his computer, or by allowing everyone, regardless of social status, the right to a decent livelihood - one which is not polluting - neither to the consciousness nor to our beloved mother nature ... some recent technologies- the "green revolution" - are aimed in this direction.

As for nuclear weapons, they are a threat to all of nature, and as a deterrent may serve a function temporarily, whilst the world must focus on step-by-step removal, or they will almost certainly fall into the wrong hands...



India during the British Raj and the Mughal Raj and the Maharajas was less materialistic?

Actually, perhaps more, because all the opulence of those who accumulated wealth and power for themselves leaving millions to die of disease and starvation. At least as a Nation with an economy and a democracy, the poor and hungry are finding a means of altering that oppressive history...
~Jai Hind!

[Harjas Kaur]

I wasn't claiming that India was less materialistic in the '70's, but there is a difference between being plundered/victimized and being holy, and there is no reason to assume that consumerism is the answer to victimization. What then is the answer to feeding and clothing the masses if not the development of a modern free market economy? Would you prefer the Communist structure? If European nations abandoned their free market economies, how long do you think it would be before the whole world was plunged into economic chaos and mass poverty and starvation?

See this is the thing about interpolating from one extreme to the other. Just taking blanket potshots at India as a Nation, as a thriving economy, and going off about the "immorality of it's existence" as such is completely unrealistic.


A society can intelligently defend its citizens, both from the marauding colonists themselves and from their idealogies...
The colonists have long gone, but their ideaologies have been embraced by India.And when those "marauding colonists" have nuclear arsenals it vastly complicates the situation. As for democracy and free market being a legacy of the British colonialists, again I think you've missed the boat. There's nothing colonial in India's own aspirations as a free-market democracy.

And why are you here condemning the Indian economic system? Why are you scolding poor Indian people and India who are just beginning to establish a sense of material security?

Not all "materialism" is "bad."


She has lost the focus of her holy men- finding atmarama, satisfaction in the self, and not caring for loss or gain, materially speaking. Are you saying holy men have lost focus? Or are you saying ordinary people shoulder some unjust burden of responsibility to someone else's idealism to be exceptionally "holy" by "renouncing materialism?" Why can't they just be ordinary people with a profoundly spiritual heritage? And as ordinary people why can't they take delight in material and economic success? Hasn't it been hard won?


Also lost, long before the '70s, the focus of the Supreme Brahman pervading all of nature, making it a sacred resting place for God. The result is an appalling environmental record, and social injustices. The isopanishad states that as everything belongs to the Supreme, no one should hanker for more than his quota.The "appalling environment record" is also owed to the persistent abuses by Western economic powers like Monsanto.

http://earthfirst.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/monsanto-protest.jpg
Why aren't you on some forum bashing Monsanto? Why are you bashing India for injustices perpetrated by fraudulent foreign corporations?

http://monkeysmashesheaven.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/bophal.jpg
Aftermath of the American corporation Union Carbide plant in Bhopal that killed 25,000, injured over half a million who are still suffering after-effects. The disaster has left behind millions of tons of toxic waste.

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2009/08/01/bhopal-protest-cp-RTR9X5M.jpg
Why aren't you condemning Union Carbide?

Why condemn the people aspiring to attain a level of economic independence while yet being exploited by wealthier affluent Nations? What will you gain by "bash India, bash India, bash India?" You haven't even addressed the root causes of the problems.


Outsourcing Global Pollution to India - Vandana Shiva
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjbVlZUsm34

At least have the integrity to blame the true culprits and not the weakest, ordinary people of a developing Nation.


The isopanishad states that as everything belongs to the Supreme, no one should hanker for more than his quota. By the Supreme arrangement, there are no birds starving in the street, like we do see in human societyYes, that is a very lovely and idealistic principle. However, you fail to understand that we live in the sansaar, a world which is an ocean of suffering and cyclic existence. In this world innocent birds and children do die in the streets as victims of the most egregious exploitations.

Are you complaining that this world is not a Utopia? If the Mahabharata described effects of nuclear warfare thousands of years ago why are you shocked at the existence of nuclear horror weapons today? Yes, Dharmic sadhana is a very good thing. But you can't push India backwards into a condition of economic and technological dependance simply because you don't like technological and material advancement. For one thing, it simply can't be done. So it's just a fantastic presumption.


Therefore, there is a dharmic requirement for grhastha householders to shout out into the street before their meals "if anyone is hungry, please come and eat!"Okay. I am sure there are crazy saints who go around and do this. But if you're complaining that the average business executive in Delhi doesn't, you will complain in vain and no one will listen. Your scolding is simply unrealistic, however beautiful it may be meant. For one thing, the business executive would have no food left.

http://patelism.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/01.bmp
New Delhi street beggers will be happy to eat all your food. Why don't you go there and give away your meals and teach all of us by example how to obey a Dharmic injunction? And if you do not have such a charity, then who exactly are you criticizing, Indians or yourself?


So the vedic thing of sharing and caring has been replaced by the western thing of every man for himself.Selfishness and materialism are not "Western" qualities. They are "human failings." Probably since the time of the Vedas, human societies have been on a downward spiral of spiritual degeneration coinciding with material advancement. This is part of the design of creation. It's not the ideal, but it's the predictable outcome of mankind's shortcomings.


Consumerism is not the answer, but a return to vedic values- not Indian traditions- but the essence which gave way to the traditions, which have in turn become disconnected from their roots, and thus uprooted, serve little value.It's not reasonable. It's pure idealism with no realistic context. Mankind simply isn't there yet. Not even close. What we see in the world is the product of man's evolutionary level. You can no more demand that a pig get out of the mud. When the pig is ready, it will get out of the mud, and not until. Just like half-baked cookies are nothing more than falling apart dough. You can complain that the cookie doesn't behave as it should, but what can it do when it's falling apart?


Consumerism is not the answerConsumerism may not be the ideal answer, but it has lifted millions out of poverty and raised the standard of living.


For example, the dowry- originally an expression of a fathers love for his daughter, it has become degraded to the point where no villager wants a girl, and many get ultrasounds for the purpose of aborting girl babies, mainly because of the future dowry involved.Don't you think a developing Nation has more to offer impoverished families when a poor girl can obtain an education and become a medical doctor and generate wealth? And don't tell me we should return to days of Vedas when rishis could materialize food from thin air! We still have to live realistically in this dimension.


as our good brother Amra is doing on his computerAmra has a right to his opinion. But if he is asserting that India has no right, then I vociferously disagree. I think all these liberal views of India having no right, and India always groveling, India having to surrender sovereignty reflect WHY people praise the original video of this young girl. A liberal India has given voice and sympathy to all the enemies of India while marginalizing the Hindus.


As for nuclear weapons, they are a threat to all of nature, and as a deterrent may serve a function temporarily, whilst the world must focus on step-by-step removal, or they will almost certainly fall into the wrong hands... They are already IN the wrong hands. Think logically. Nuclear disarmament now would be suicide.

http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/070407islamabad.jpg
The Pakistanis who influence their government, promote the aims of their government and who have nuclear weapons within their grasp due to the treachery and complicity of their government do NOT represent innocents who can be reasoned with at a negotiating table. Anyone who asserts "India has no enemies" has poked out both their eyes.
Convert to Islam ex Hindu broke her God and accepted Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1asHyRrto


Pakistan: The making of terrorists by Pakistan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awqhmYWoP4A


General Hamid Gul former ISI Head, Unit of Pakistan Army Threatens to Nuke Bangalore to Smoke Cloud
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfIQ57VVC3c

[amra]

Dear Harjas Kaur, First of all are you representative of a certain viewpoint or ideology or have you independantly conjured up these ideas in your mind with your mayavi shaktian. If you represent a viewpoint then realise it is your viewpoint and your ideas I am attacking, not you as an individual person. So please with this in mind let us continue....

You have mentioned Monsanto a company that is the epitomy of all evil. The outrages they have commited against not just India but all indigenous farmers is monstorous. Yet these companies are the product of the 'free market economy' you are promoting. Before the adoption of this system materialism was prevalent, I am not denying this, but it was within a world-view wholly other from the one promoted by consumer culture. There is a profound psychological and cosmological re-orientation that happens with the occurence of MTV consumer culture which goes along with the modern state of India. This occurence can be called the flattening and closing-in of the divine hierarchies into a hedonistic rational nihilism. Nothing is sacred everything becomes subsumed into the mad rush for profit. We can see this trend in things like 'Hanuman computer games'. Why would you wish to promote this way? This is a Maya Jaal cast over the INdian mind making it seem that the western ideal of 'progress' and economic advancement is the best good. In mimicking western politics India will become like the western nations. It will make you happy then because India will then be seen on an equal par with the western states but then don't expect any real spiritual or moral values survive.

And please can we stop this nonsense of atomic weapons described in the Mahabharata. This is another result of the reduction of world-view to purely materialistic realms with a smattering of spirituality to make it seem like it is something it is not. These weapons like Brahmastra are not physical. Do you think that the Rishi’s who created the great Ithias literature of India were limited to describing physical occurrences like some western historian or scientist? These weapons refer to the subtle realm. The realm of minds. Vimanas also were not physical objects. The devas and Rishis who gift these weapons to mortals are not physical they are cosmic principles. To unravel the great depth of thought that is contained within these Ithiases and Puranas requires much penance and study. Equating weapons mentioned in the Mahabharata to physical nuclear weapons is a one-dimensional interpretation of a multi-layered complex mythological structure.

You write that selfishness and materialism are human failings, I agree, but why would you want to promote a system that increases selfishness and materialism exponentially. This attitude epitomised by ‘ You can no more demand that a pig get out of the mud. When the pig is ready, it will get out of the mud’. Is merely an excuse to do nothing in the face of rabid consumerism and materialism. This is tacit support for what I have previously termed decomposing forces i.e. the forces behind western economic materialistic ideas. So because the rest of the World is heading for the pit India should follow in tow of its western compatriot states. See this is the biggest evil making out the model of western economies to be something to aspire to. If India does not follow the western mode of growth and progress In Harjas Kaurs view it is then weak and pathetic. What subservience to western nations! Vasudeva Datta is right we must find the spirit of traditional Vedism and not mimick the Asuric mentality of western states.

[Harjas Kaur]

Dear Harjas Kaur, First of all are you representative of a certain viewpoint or ideology or have you independantly conjured up these ideas in your mind with your mayavi shaktian. If you represent a viewpoint then realise it is your viewpoint and your ideas I am attacking, not you as an individual person. If it is "my viewpoint" and "my ideas" as opposed to "a certain viewpoint or ideology," and you are calling by name of Harjas in your posts, then it is personified, and the attack is personal, as evidenced in this paragraph:

"The structure which YOU promote and India endeveaours to imitate is the imperialistic structure that Britain used to loot the world. The underlying structure is the same, lack of individual freedom in subservience to the state, which is based on an economy that rapes nature and promotes consumerism. And on top of this you just add labels like Dharma and Kshatriya. In doing so YOU obliterate the meaning from these words."
So you are not discussing the viewpoint or ideology, but me personally as personifying these things. And that is my objection.
"Anyway YOUR argument is purely political, which means it is for worldly ends which is for maya which is for me demonic."
It is not the worldview or ideology which is "demonic," but according to your grammatical construction, my personal argument.


"Please Ms Harjas Kaur my only enemy is ignorance. I do not have many evil enemies waiting to destroy me as YOU seem to have created for yourself and India. My India has no enemies."

"First of all are you representative of a certain viewpoint or ideology or have you independantly conjured up these ideas in your mind with YOUR mayavi shaktian."

Clearly you are making personal insults about MY Mayavi shaktian. Why? You ask if I am representative, yet accuse that I am in so many paragraphs.

You have mentioned Monsanto a company that is the epitomy of all evil. The outrages they have commited against not just India but all indigenous farmers is monstorous. Yet these companies are the product of the 'free market economy' YOU are promoting.

You are not discussing either Monsanto or free market economy. You are discussing ME personally as supporting outrage. Clearly one can support viable free market economy while protesting the corruptions and abuses of it. One can also discuss the concepts of free market economy and corporate irresponsibility without BLAMING the person having a discussion.

And please can we stop this nonsense of atomic weapons described in the Mahabharata. This is another result of the reduction of world-view to purely materialistic realms with a smattering of spirituality to make it seem like it is something it is not. These weapons like Brahmastra are not physical. Do you think that the Rishi’s who created the great Ithias literature of India were limited to describing physical occurrences like some western historian or scientist? These weapons refer to the subtle realm. The realm of minds. Vimanas also were not physical objects.
You are entitled to an opinion. However, even the atma is encased in koshas which descend into the level of materiality. It is my own as well as others belief that what has been described in Mahabharat was authentic historical account of events in this sansaar, which is physicality pervaded by subtle worlds and dimensions.

Vimanas are possibly those strange vehicles familiar to UFOlogy which correspond to what some investigators have termed, "trans-dimensional." Meaning certain UFO cases have involved an intrusion into the physical dimension by objects clearly violating our known physics but explainable in terms of higher dimensionality.


To unravel the great depth of thought that is contained within these Ithiases and Puranas requires much penance and study. Equating weapons mentioned in the Mahabharata to physical nuclear weapons is a one-dimensional interpretation of a multi-layered complex mythological structure. I don't consider it to be "mythological."


There is evidence that the Rama empire (now India) was devastated by nuclear war. The Indus valley is now the Thar desert, and the site of the radioactive ash found west of Jodhpur is around there...

When excavations of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro reached the street level, they discovered skeletons scattered about the cities, many holding hands and sprawling in the streets as if some instant, horrible doom had taken place. People were just lying, unburied, in the streets of the city. And these skeletons are thousands of years old, even by traditional archaeological standards. These skeletons are among the most radioactive ever found, on par with those at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At one site, Soviet scholars found a skeleton which had a radioactive level 50 times greater than normal. http://www.zenzibar.com/news/article.asp?id=1768
You write that selfishness and materialism are human failings, I agree, but why would you want to promote a system that increases selfishness and materialism exponentially. Do you live in a modern, industrialized nation typing on your computer? Do you pay taxes? Then unless you are off in a cave you are supporting the same economic and national system you wax poetic about in condemnatory terms.

If that is the case, and you are clearly not a hermit in the Himalayas, but a participant in a modern society benefiting from its advantages and suffering from it's liabilities. What is there to promote or not promote? It's a non-issue.

Effectively, you yourself have not renounced what you are condemning, thus it has a hollow ring to it. And since, as a member of a modern society you clearly benefit from the protections it affords what are you talking about? You participate in the same thing. You give tacit approval and support by accepting to live in it.

You want to condemn nuclear weapons? Fine! They are horrible. I do not praise them. Yet, they are a necessary evil in this day and age. You want to promote disarmament? Fine! I agree disarmament is a wonderful idea...

if and when the nuclear threats to India's safety categorically disarm, then India's disarmament would be appropriate, and not until.

You want to justify Gandhian pacifism while denying the legitimate reality of military dangers? Such pacifism is murderous. Gandhi was the father of Pakistan and the nuclear jihadi nightmare confronting India today. And no amount of starry-eyed denials can ever change that fact.


Vasudeva Datta is right we must find the spirit of traditional Vedism and not mimick the Asuric mentality of western states. The asuras are pointing nuclear weapons towards India. Vedic quotations will not protect innocents from them. The asuras are infiltrating communities within India and abroad to stir up message of treason and war against India. And in the middle of this escalating and unresolved crisis you want to scold India? Well, you have plenty of company.

A Sikh Brother Abusing The Enemies of Pakistan-Crush India
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p925daR0ZQk

[chandu_69]

Harjas Kaur ji,

I think you are up against Dharmic people who adopted the philosophy of MAHATMA GANDHI.

Gandhiji apparently made a statement during partition holocaust by muslims.
He said
quote

Gandhi advised them that if a Muslim expressed his desire to rape a Hindu or a Sikh lady, she should never refuse him but cooperate with him. She should lie down like a dead with her tongue in between her teeth. Thus the rapist Muslim will be satisfied soon and sooner he leave her. (D Lapierre and L Collins, Freedom at Midnight, Vikas, 1997, p-479).


The asuras are pointing nuclear weapons towards India. Vedic quotations will not protect innocents from them.

No problem.The world is covered by Maya anyway.;)

[chandu_69]

Nathuram Godse did the right thing. I cant agree him anymore. For those of you who haven't read his last speech, consider reading it.

Godse's speech:
Mi Nathuram Boltoy (http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/jul/22godse.htm)


http://www.dukhsukh.com/2008/10/nathuram-godse%E2%80%99s-speech-at-trialhis-principle-of-peace-was-bogus-gopal-godse/

[atanu]

Namaste,

I happened upon this video on YouTube the other day and it was very powerful.

However, I cannot but think that this girl was spoonfed what she is saying and therefore is to some extent indoctrinated.

Anyway, I personally feel that ADULT Hindus should be like this young, energetic girl who supports Dharma.

Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ8QSVvu2bw

What do you think? Is it appropriate for this girl to make such a speech? If yes, why? If not, why not?

Namaskar.

Namaste TTA,

What we make of the following? Is it appropriate or is it madness?

Take oath in Marathi or else...

Somit Sen | TNN

Mumbai: MNS chief Raj Thackeray fired a fresh salvo on Monday when he demanded that all 288 newly elected legislators take their oaths in Marathi or face the MNS music . If anyone dares not to take the oath in Marathi, you will see what my MLAs can do. --------

------------------------------

Please interpret in the background of the Indian Law which allows elected representatives to take the oath in any of the recognized languages.



Om

[atanu]

So killing the terrorists and other threats to India one by one is more humane? And in that process, and infinitely worse, losing Indian lives in battle is better than nuking that putrid wasteland (pakistan)?

I assume you also condemn America's nuking of Hiroshima & Nagasaki? It saved hundreds of thousands of lives that would have been wasted if the Americans had invaded by land. The two nukes swiftly brought the Japanese to their knees and put them in their place; the war was, for all intent and purposes, over after the nuking of those two Japanese cities.

Namaste All,

This thread has evoked extreme sentiments. It is also surprising that the bombing of Hiroshima & Nagasaki has found a support.

Germany had surrendered on May 7th of 1945 and the bombing took place on August 6, 1945. The bombing was purely a demonic act of mad scientific conquest. The major opposition to the allied forces had already gone down. The war was, for all intent and purposes, over after the fall of Germany. The bombings killed as many as 140,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki by the end of 1945.

It is a surprise that there are people who support such acts. It is also amusing to see Godse being elevated to heroism in contrast to ridiculing those who call Gandhi as Gandhi Ji. And as support for the condemnation of Gandhi Ji a doubtful source is cited again and again.


An untrained boxer punches with his fingers. A trained boxer hits with his body force behind the punch. I agree with Shri Amra, at the cost of inviting jeers and sneers, that Gandhi Ji was a Khatriya who understood Atma Shakti.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Hiroshima's population has been estimated at 350,000; approximately 70,000 died immediately from the explosion and another 70,000 died from radiation within five years.


A survivor described the damage to people:
The appearance of people was . . . well, they all had skin blackened by burns. . . . They had no hair because their hair was burned, and at a glance you couldn't tell whether you were looking at them from in front or in back. . . . They held their arms bent [forward] like this . . . and their skin - not only on their hands, but on their faces and bodies too - hung down. . . . If there had been only one or two such people . . . perhaps I would not have had such a strong impression. But wherever I walked I met these people. . . . Many of them died along the road - I can still picture them in my mind -- like walking ghosts.

[vcindiana]

Hiroshima's population has been estimated at 350,000; approximately 70,000 died immediately from the explosion and another 70,000 died from radiation within five years.



A survivor described the damage to people: ......The appearance of people was .

This thread indeed has evoked extreme sentiments. I see the “fear” factor that dominates our thinking and in what we do. Good thing, Gandhi was cremated. Probably he would have risen from the grave knowing how his message was trampled.

The message of Scriptures is twisted. We from India are becoming no different from fundamental religious groups.. Any fool can press a button to nuke the entire world. It takes a profound courage/wisdom to face an enemy and get slapped or even killed. I know this does not make sense to many of us. We do not see the logic in it.

But Gandhi did experiment on truth and proved that it was the only way. No wonder he was called Mahatma. It is not Gandhi’s work does not work now. It is not tried again after he died.

Love VC

[Harjas Kaur]

It is also amusing to see Godse being elevated to heroism in contrast to ridiculing those who call Gandhi as Gandhi Ji. And as support for the condemnation of Gandhi Ji a doubtful source is cited again and againhttp://lipikadasgupta.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/partition-camps1.jpg
Is it "atma shakti" when political idiocy consents to division of a nation betraying entire Sikh community which for hundreds of years had bled on this land, won it in devastating wars and was part of original Sikh Kingdom? Is it "atma shakti" when hundreds of thousands become uprooted, homeless and penniless, families shattered? Is it "atma" shakti that gang-rapes and mass murders DID happen while this man is "fasting" to guilt the country into giving more money to Jinnah to build Pakistan? Let own people become impoverished and build up enemy state?

And the truth is in the pudding. What is the end result of Gandhi's absurd politics? Is it Ahimsa? Is it harmonious relations with lovely Pakistan neighbor? Is it "peace in our time?"

Or is it a nightmare of insecurity, terrorism,
threats, and multiple wars?
You see, that's the REAL truth not in the books and movies.

The Sikh Empire was a country that existed from 1799 (exactly 100 years after Guru Gobind Singh had created the Khalsa) til 1849. Although the empire came under the power of Maharaja Ranjit Singh upon his coronation in 1799, the Sikhs had ruled these lands since 1716 as a collection of autonomous Misls (or fighting clans) that were governed by barons/Misldars... The Empire covered a region between the modern People's Republic of China and Afghanistan, encompassing the following modern day regions:

Punjab, Pakistan
Punjab, India

Haryana, India
Himachal Pradesh, India
Chandigarh, India

Delhi, India
Jammu, India
North West Frontier Province, Pakistan

Tribal Areas, Pakistan

Islamabad Capital Teritory, Pakistan
Parts of North-Eastern Afghanistan http://sikhempire.blogspot.com/http://sikhfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/india-punjab-map-23.jpg
Well what a brilliant idea, just have an Englishman take a pen on a map and split the country and give away what was no right of theirs to give. Blessing mortal enemies committed to idolizing Aurangzeb domination of Hindustan. Yes, give away somebody else's state, somebody else's language and pretend it's brahmgyan and "atma shakti." Gandhi created the grievances that led to Khalistan movement.


Raj Thackery and Marathi:
What does Raj Thackery have to do with the price of tea in China?
Raj Thackery is probably rejecting the policy of Hindi as national language, same as Punjabis are. Why elevate one language over all others? Are not all equally honorable? What is wrong with someone fighting to promote Marathi for Marathis? Why Marathi needs to be abused and overlorded by Hindi? Who made Hindi king? Was it brilliant idea of British and Gandi? What happened to that idiotic Hindustani language Gandhi was promoting, the one with all the Arabic words so Indians could still feel like they had a Mughal Raj.


The Moghuls were Muslim (http://adaniel.tripod.com/Islam.htm) invaders who arrived in India from the present day Afghanistan. The official language of the Moghul courts was Persian... Some of the Moghul family members were great patrons of poetry and music. Slowly there developed a ‘Hindustani’ poetry, based on Hindustani language which used words from Arabic and Persian and was written in Perso-Arabic script. This language was called Urdu. http://adaniel.tripod.com/hindustani.htm



"I have studied them specially in order to study the utility of Hindustani compared to English for the conduct of its proceedings. I have spoken to hundreds of delegates and thousands of visitors … and I have come to the deliberate-conclusion, that no language except Hindustani - a resultant of Hindi and Urdu - can possibly become a national medium for exchange of ideas or for the conduct of national proceedings (Gandhi in Young India, 21 January 1920; also in Gandhi 1956: 14, 15)." http://www.languageinindia.com/april2005/earlygandhi1.htmlhttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FqXD7nfEOzk/Rbf71nW51II/AAAAAAAAAHI/3lkHvXHTjBU/s320/HEADS+ON+POLESAtrocity.jpe
Yes, Sikhs did not forget the Mughal Raj and gruesome tortures, beheadings, murder of Gurus and forced conversions. Gandhi seemed to believe that every Indian should speak Arabic and Farsi in memory of Mughal Raj. Sharia is still Sharia. Beheadings and cruelties are common to Taliban. What has changed?


Germany had surrendered on May 7th of 1945 and the bombing took place on August 6, 1945. The bombing was purely a demonic act of mad scientific conquest. The major opposition to the allied forces had already gone down. The war was, for all intent and purposes, over after the fall of Germany. Really? Just to be fair to both sides of debate, let's take a look at this assertion because Germany is NOT Japan.

Torture and slaughter by Japanese did NOT end until Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were losing the war but not defeated. Are nuclear weapons reprehensible? Yes! Was Japanese conduct, brutality and militancy in the war up to and including 1945 reprehensible? Yes! Could that alone have been an influential factor in the American government's decision? Yes!


World War II and Japanese Occupation 1941 - 1945 "The Japanese occupied Manila on January 2, 1942. MacArthur concentrated his troops on the Bataan peninsula to await the relief of reinforcements from the United States that, after the destruction at Pearl Harbour, could never come. The Japanese succeeded in penetrating Bataan's first line of defense and, from Corregidor, MacArthur had no alternative but to organize a slow and desperate retreat down the peninsula...The 76,000 starving and sick American and Filipino defenders in Bataan surrendered to the Japanese on April 9, 1942. The Japanese led their captives on a cruel and criminal Death March on which 7-10,000 died or were murdered before arriving at the internment camps ten days later... For over three years and right to the day of Japan's surrender, the Philippines were to suffer grievously under the depredations of military occupation." http://www.ualberta.ca/~vmitchel/fw6.html (http://www.ualberta.ca/%7Evmitchel/fw6.html)http://www.indiana.edu/%7Eealc100/rape-of-Nanking.gif
Genocide and mass rapes in Nanking China after Japanese invasion.

http://www.82airborne.org/images/FLaiacona.jpg
American Bataan Death March Survivor.


"The march, involving the forcible transfer of 75,000 American and Filipino prisoners of war captured by the Japanese in the Philippines from the Bataan peninsula to prison camps, was characterized by wide-ranging physical abuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_abuse) and murder, and resulted in very high fatalities inflicted upon the prisoners and civilians along the route by the armed forces of the Empire of Japan. Beheadings, cut throats and casual shootings were the more common actions — compared to bayonet stabbings, rapes, disembowelments, numerous rifle butt beatings and a deliberate refusal to allow the prisoners food or water while keeping them continually marching for nearly a week in tropical heat...

On April 9, 1942, as the final stage of the Battle of Bataan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bataan), approximately 76,000 Filipino and American troops, commanded by Major General Edward "Ned" P. King, Jr., were formally surrendered to a Japanese army of 54,000 men under Lt. General Masaharu Homma. This was the single largest surrender of a military force in American history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_MarchWORLD WAR 2 BATAAN DEATH MARCH - PART 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saGX7EW7mdc


TIME Magazine correspondent Interview with Gopal Godse, brother of Naturam Godse
"His Principle of Peace was Bogus."
TIME: Why did you want to kill Gandhi?
Godse: Gandhi was a hypocrite.Even after the massacre of the Hindus by the Muslims, he was happy. The more the massacres of the Hindus, the taller his flag of secularism.

TIME: Can you explain how he created his mass following?
Godse: The credit goes to him for maneuvering the media. He captured the press. That was essential. How Gandhi walked, when he smiled, how he waved - all these minor details that the people did not require were imposed upon them to create an atmosphere around Gandhi. And the more ignorant the masses, the more popular was Gandhi. So they always tried to keep the masses ignorant.

TIME: But surely it takes more than good publicity to create a Gandhi?
Godse: There is another thing. Generally in the Indian masses, people are attracted toward saintism. Gandhi was shrewd to use his saintdom for politics. After his death the government used him. The government knew that he was an enemy of Hindus, but they wanted to show that he was a staunch Hindu. So the first act they did was to put "Hey Ram" into Gandhi's dead mouth.

TIME: You mean that he did not say "Hey Ram" as he died?
Godse: "No, he did not say it. You see, it was an automatic pistol. It had a magazine for nine bullets but there were actually seven at that time. And once you pull the trigger, within a second, all the seven bullets had passed. When these bullets pass through crucial points like the heart, consciousness is finished. You have no strength...

TIME: Many people think Gandhi deserved to be nominated TIME'S person of the century. (He was one of two runner's up, after Albert Einstein.)
Godse: I name him the most cruel person for Hindu's in India! The most cruel person! That is how I term him.

TIME: Is that why Gandhi had to die?
Godse: Yes. For months he was advising Hindus that they must never be angry with the Muslims. What sort of ahimsa (non-violence) is this? His principle of peace was bogus. In any free country, a person like him would be shot dead officially because he was encouraging the Muslims to kill Hindus.

TIME: But his philosophy was of turning the other cheek. He felt one person had to stop the cycle of violence...
Godse: The world does not work that way.

TIME: Is there anything you admire about Gandhi?
Godse: Firstly the mass awakening that Gandhi did. In our school days Gandhi was our idol. Secondly, he removed the fear of prison. He said it is different to go into prison for a theft and different to go in for satyagraha (civil disobedience). As youngsters, we had our enthusiasm, but we needed some channel. We took Gandhi to be our channel. We don't repent for that.

TIME: Did you not admire his principles of non-violence?
Godse: Non-violence is not a principle at all. He did not follow it. In politics you cannot follow non-violence. You cannot follow honesty. Every moment, you have to give a lie. Every moment you have to take a bullet in hand and kill someone. Why was he proved to be a hypocrite? Because he was in politics with his so-called principles. Is his non-violence followed anywhere? Not in the least. Nowhere.

TIME: What was the most difficult thing about killing Gandhi?
Godse: The greatest hurdle before us was not that of giving up our lives or going to the gallows. It was that we would be condemned both by the government and by the public. Because the public had been kept in the dark about what harm Gandhi had done to the nation. How he had fooled them!

TIME: Did the people condemn you?
Godse: Yes. People in general did. Because they had been kept ignorant. http://forums.sureshkumar.net/inspire-yourself-others-leaders-zone/58315-why-ghandhi-killed.html

[saidevo]

I have not gone through all the posts in this thread, but I have my own personal opinion about Gandhi:

IMSO, Gandhi had a double face--political and personal. While his personal face experimented with Truth, the political face turned a blind eye to it and even spoke insensitively in situations where Hindus were the sufferers. It was this political face that installed Nehru as the first prime minister, ignoring the claims of Patel (Incidentally Oct 31 was the birth day of Patel, but the nation remembered only Indira Gandhi's death--no news about Patel in the papers).

Those who blindly support Gandhi should answer the following:

"Many Hindus of this country do not know, what Gandhi, the Great Soul and the Apostle of nonviolence, thought about this behavior of the Muslims. In the 6th July, 1926, edition of the Navajivan, Gandhi wrote that “He would kiss the feet of the (Muslim) violator of the modesty of a sister” (Mahatma Gandhi, D Keer, Popular Prakashan, p-473). Just before the partition, both Hindu and Sikh women were being raped by the Muslims in large numbers. Gandhi advised them that if a Muslim expressed his desire to rape a Hindu or a Sikh lady, she should never refuse him but cooperate with him. She should lie down like a dead with her tongue in between her teeth. Thus the rapist Muslim will be satisfied soon and sooner he leave her. (D Lapierre and L Collins, Freedom at Midnight, Vikas, 1997, p-479)."

--"Gandhi and Muslim Appeasement – I" by Dr Radhasyam Brahmachari
http://thetruthclub.org/false-gods/gandhi-false-gods/gandhi-muslim-appeasement/

How could such a personalilty brought freedom to India and that by non-violence. I believe the true story is emerging now, because truth cannot be suppressed for long:

Who Brought Freedom, Gandhi or Netaji?
http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/8046.html

It's time we stopped worshipping false gods; we have too many gods and true godmen in our ancient land, even today.

[devotee]

Namaste Atanu,


It is a surprise that there are people who support such acts. It is also amusing to see Godse being elevated to heroism in contrast to ridiculing those who call Gandhi as Gandhi Ji. And as support for the condemnation of Gandhi Ji a doubtful source is cited again and again.

It only shows how much our thoughts have got corrupted. We are seeing Nathuram Godse as Hero & Gandhi as villain ! That is indeed very unfortunate.


But Gandhi did experiment on truth and proved that it was the only way. No wonder he was called Mahatma. It is not Gandhi’s work does not work now. It is not tried again after he died.


It is not that peaceful resistance to atrocity which was taught by Gandhi ji was not used again but yes, it is more often than not used in a distorted manner. Why ? Following Gandhi is not easy. Even a coward can act the way Godse acted but it needs a lot of courage to follow Gandhi in true sense.

OM

[Harjas Kaur]

TIME: Did you not admire his principles of non-violence?
Godse: Non-violence is not a principle at all. He did not follow it. In politics you cannot follow non-violence. You cannot follow honesty. Every moment, you have to give a lie. Every moment you have to take a bullet in hand and kill someone. Why was he proved to be a hypocrite? Because he was in politics with his so-called principles. Is his non-violence followed anywhere? Not in the least. Nowhere.Gandhi's non-violent principles are followed nowhere in the world because the world doesn't work that way. Yet Gandhi supporters claim:

"Probably he would have risen from the grave knowing how his message was trampled. The message of Scriptures is twisted. We from India are becoming no different from fundamental religious groups."
It is not the violence, threats and terrorism of fundamentalist jihadi Muslims which needs to be addressed, but entire blame is on Hindus! Entire perversion of justice and harmony is laid on Hindus! Not on attackers! NO! The fault belongs to only Hindus! Hindu's and India are evil and pervert the scriptures because they do not roll over, grovel more, suffer more indignities of violence while masochistically accepting it as moral, right and good! You see, here is all the proof Naturam Godse Ji was right. As Amra says, "My India has no enemies." How can real military threats be acknowledged by people who feel India IS the enemy!

What is this? More atma shakti? More fake "fear factor" to bully defenseless Muslim extremists? Let's be honest with reality. Is this Gandhi message? What blindness worships Gandhi illusion.

http://ginacobb.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c2c6053ef010536bd87b9970c-400wi

Islamist accused of Mumbai bombing freed
"India was quick to vent its disappointment over a release, which many officials view as confirmation that Pakistan has no will to curb militant activities and is an untrustworthy negotiating partner. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0603/1224247947905.html

Stop showing sympathy for people committed to India's devastation and pretending it's "holy." That's a perversion of holiness. And what do you mean blindly accusing of "dubious sources?" The sources are multiple, cross-confirming, with eye-witnesses and you have not even refuted.


"Then Gandhi, setting aside all other speakers, spoke for 45 minutes supporting partition. The main theme of his deliberation was that, if Congress did not accept partition (1) other group of people or leaders would avail the opportunity and throw the Congress out of power and (2) a chaotic situation would prevail throughout the country. Many believe that, in the name of ‘chaotic condition’, he tacitly asked the Muslims to begin countrywide communal riot, if the Congress did not accept the partition. Till then, Sardar Ballavbhat Patel was on the fence regarding the partition. But Gandhi’s speech turned him into a firm supporter of partition and he influenced other confused members to support the issue. In this way, Congress approved the partition issue." (History of Freedom Movement in India, R C Majumdar, Vol-III, p-670). http://thetruthclub.org/false-gods/gandhi-false-gods/gandhi-muslim-appeasement/
"Gandhi was very fond of the Hindi language and used to say that it was the only language having the potentiality to play the role of the national language. But to please the Muslim, he, later on tried his best to make Urdu, under the garb of Hindustani, the National Language of India."(Koenrad Elst, Gandhi and Godse, Voice of India, p – 89). http://thetruthclub.org/false-gods/gandhi-false-gods/gandhi-muslim-appeasement/


"A few months before the partition, when Hindu and Sikh refugees started to come from West Punjab in droves and crowding the refugee camps of Delhi, one day Gandhi visited a refugee camp and said, “Hindus should never be angry against the Muslims even if the latter might make up their minds to undo their (Hindus’) existence. If they put all of us to the sword, we should court death bravely. … We are destined to be born and die, then why need we feel gloomy over it?” (speech delivered on April 6, 1947)." http://thetruthclub.org/false-gods/gandhi-false-gods/gandhi-muslim-appeasement/
"In this context, Gandhi also said, “If those killed have died bravely, they have not lost anything but earned something. … They should not be afraid of death. After all, the killers will be none other than our Muslim brothers.” (Shri Nathuram Godse, Why I Assassinated Gandhi, p-92,93; as quoted by Koenrad Elst in Gandhi versus Godse, Voice of India, p-121). In another occasion when he was talking to a group of refugees, said, “If all the Punjabis were to die to the last man without killing (a single Muslim), Punjab will be immortal. Offer yourselves as nonviolent willing sacrifices.” (Collins and Lapierre, Freedom at Midnight, p-385). There is no doubt that if someone reads all these utterances of Gandhi, he would take him either a fool or a lunatic, but we are worshiping him as a Mahatma or a Great Soul.

Gandhi believed that Muslims were brothers of the Hindus and hence they should never take arms or wage a war against the Muslims. He used to say that the foreign policy of independent India should always be respectful to Islam and the Muslims. Moreover, independent India should never invade a Muslim country like Arabia, Turkey etc. Gandhi also said that Rana Pratap, Guru Govinda Singh, Raja Ranjit Singh and Raja Shivaji were misguided patriots because they fought war with the Muslims."
Gandhi is spit on the face of a Sikh. He is spit on the face of Sikh history that bled, suffered and died to FREE Punjab from Muslim tyranny. And all he offers is meek submission to the same tyranny. What insanity.


TIME: Is that why Gandhi had to die?
Godse: Yes. For months he was advising Hindus that they must never be angry with the Muslims. What sort of ahimsa (non-violence) is this? His principle of peace was bogus. In any free country, a person like him would be shot dead officially because he was encouraging the Muslims to kill Hindus.

TIME: But his philosophy was of turning the other cheek. He felt one person had to stop the cycle of violence...
Godse: The world does not work that way. http://forums.sureshkumar.net/inspire-yourself-others-leaders-zone/58315-why-ghandhi-killed.html

[saidevo]

It is very simple: if Gandhi really believed that ahimsa and satya--non-violence and truth could work wonders, why did he not preach them to the warring and arrogant Muslims of his time? Is there any record that Gandhi actually advised a single Muslim about the two principles deemed so dear to his heart?

On the other hand, there is evidence that Gandhi coined the phrase "sarva dharma samabhAva" as part of his Muslim appeasement, while he was in the Yeravada jail in 1930. His colleague Kaka Sahib who was his companion in the jail cautioned Gandhi that his coining of that phrase would mislead the Hindus who had so much faith in him, but Gandhi was adamant.

For more, check this book:
sarva dharma sama bhAva by Prof. GC Asani
http://www.scribd.com/doc/5406706/Sarva-Dharma-Samabhava-Prof-G-C-Asnani

[amra]

My India has no enemies because the true India is made by the everyday people in their rituals and worship and who promote the Vedic tradition. I do not believe in the nation state of India because it is based on an unethical foundation- modern capitalism. As long as there are people worshipping their Gods and following time honoured practices India can never die. India can only be destroyed from within by sickos who promote hate and support nuclear genocide. And destroy real practices of people rooted in a valid tradition with their brand of fanatical pan-hinduism- a handservant of the modern Indian capitalistic state - which is no better than the muslim fanatics they hate. What you hate you eventually become even Bhagats who practiced virod bhakti like Kansa eventually had God come to them because they hated God with an intensity. If you hate muslim fanatics so much and try to prtoect yourself from them eventually you become them. We can see this in the doctrines of some people who promote a pan-hinduism.

[amra]

Also there is something else to bear in mind. Modern economies are centered around the idea of 'progress'. This means economic development. Which means the maximization of profit. The raw material to create profit is human labour. Within this system a Human Being is a resource. This is not a Vedic concept. For India to compete with other economies it must adopt this ideal. A human being as a resource in a system that is only concerned with the maximization of profit is manipulated by techniques to make this Human a productive resource as possible. This involves the creation of fear. Western 'democracies' excel in this creation of fear. First it was the russians now it is ISlamic fundamentalists. When people are convinced of an outer threat they can be easier manipulated into creating profit for the system. A small threat is enlarged into a massive threat creating a mass psychosis an us and them ideaology. The tensions between India and Pakistan has always been there but this tension is being exploded into unreal proportions to keep people subservient to the economic state of India. I stress here the real Vedic India is not this modern economic state that is founded on unethical values such as greed. The underlying realities of the economic state such as greed violence consumerism selfishness profit materialism atheism and hatred, are pasted over with some sort of religious whitewash. Deceiving genuine people from seeing the true degradation of the modern economic state. And under this religious whitewash diabolical things like Nuclear weapons are put under the banner of 'Dharma'

[vcindiana]

Dear Amra and Atanu: I admire your stand on what you think is right. Truth cannot be deceived. Violence was never an answer and will never be an answer. But I do understand the sentiments of some of the fellow forum people and their anger against the people who commit atrocities. I find this pure human thinking and I am no exception.
My questions are: 1.Are these assumptions based on Hindu scriptures? 2. Is this the way one understands what Dharma is? 3. According to these “angry” posts Gandhi was wrong. Does that mean he did not know what Dharma was, even though he found the source of inspiration from Bhagwad Geeta. ? 4. Was he a lunatic?
I am sure Gandhi disappointed people by not having wealth, status or credentials, not wearing a royal robe or crown, not wielding his sword or Kirpan, not calling himself as a hero as we see on Bollywood movies, nor claiming as Maharishi. He did not paint himself with holy powders or profess himself as an expert in Veda. Yet, the whole world knows him.
For me it is hard to imagine such a human being really walked on this earth not too long ago.


Love...................VC

[Harjas Kaur]

"I admire your stand on what you think is right. Truth cannot be deceived." Ultimately, absolute truth, SAT cannot be deceived. Human beings and human systems CAN be deceived. Why is Justice depicted as blind? Do you think in a Court of law injustice cannot be done? Then we have to acknowledge the failings of human systems and human beings, that yes, truth can be deceived. It's important because you have asked WHY other people perceive Gandhi was wrong and crazy, and that Godse was the hero. So the first step toward any understanding is to acknowledge that people can be deceived of what truth is.

Let's jump to a quick analysis:

I am sure Gandhi disappointed people by not having wealth, status or credentials, not wearing a royal robe or crown, not wielding his sword or Kirpan, not calling himself as a hero as we see on Bollywood movies, nor claiming as Maharishi. He did not paint himself with holy powders or profess himself as an expert in Veda. Yet, the whole world knows him.Veer/bhen, the whole world knows Elvis too. It's important to acknowledge that mass media and state glorification of a personality cult can whitewash a lot of mud. First, when confronted with Gandhi's own quotes, people claim "they are from "dubious" sources." Yet, even in the trial of Godse and from Godse's surviving brother you hear the same rational given.
Gandhi was assassinated because of the teachings that Hindus should lay down and non-violently die to accommodate brutal Muslim mobs.
So why was Gandhi killed? Did any of the arguments below have any "truth?"

"I am sure Gandhi disappointed people by not having wealth, status or credentials, not wearing a royal robe or crown, not wielding his sword or Kirpan, not calling himself as a hero as we see on Bollywood movies, nor claiming as Maharishi. He did not paint himself with holy powders or profess himself as an expert in Veda."Let's be fair to the discussion. No one anywhere has claimed disappointment over Gandhi not being dressed like a Maharaja. Least of all he had utterly no nobility like Shivaji Maharaj or Guru Gobind Singh Ji with kirpan in hand fighting to the death protecting honor of families, women and children suffering indignities and abuses at hands of Muslim mobs. No, Gandhi was no hero of the oppressed.

So entire commentary intending to flatter Gandhi's magnificence at expense of degrading great heroes of Indian Nation such as Shivaji Maharaj and Guru Gobind Singh Ji of Sikh religion only backfires and creates impression of hostility. Hostile people hiding behind pretense of their own holiness.

My questions are: 1.Are these assumptions based on Hindu scriptures? Obviously you are having to ignore entire Sikh scripture and message of Guru Gobind Singh Ji to make such an absurd statement as to believe Sanatana Dharma is only about extremely narrow and sectarian interpretations about pacifism. Extreme and radical pacifism as taught by Gandhi does not exist in ANY scripture. And when colliding against mind-set of Abrahamic scriptures it becomes praise of masochistic self-destructiveness.


"Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed. ~Bible, Exodus 22:20

31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. ~Bible, Exodus 32:31

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns. ~Bible, Numbers 31

14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. ~Bible, Numbers 31

Koran 47: Verse 4
So, when you meet (in fight Jihâd in Allâh's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islâm), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allâh to continue in carrying out Jihâd against the disbelievers till they embrace Islâm.

Koran 9: Verse 29
Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Koran 98:1-8
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.

The curse of Allah is on the unbelievers... humiliating is the punishment.
Censorship of peacefull Islam! Quotaions from the Qur'an!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w1UT4mJNZc

[saidevo]

The Gandhi behind the Mahatma: did you know these facts?

• Gandhi supported Hitler and wrote letters to him?

The pacifist-Nazi axis dates to the 1930s. None other than the worldwide spokesman for non-violence, Mahatma Gandhi, wrote letters to Adolph Hitler that were deferential in their tone and abhorrent in their implications. A 1939 letter was apologetically described by Gandhi as a "mere impertinence" and included the following signoff: "I anticipate your forgiveness, if I have erred in writing to you. I remain, Your sincere friend, Sd. M. MK Gandhi."

In a letter dated December 24, 1940, Gandhi assured Hitler that he had no doubt of "your bravery or devotion to your fatherland." Zionist appeals for Gandhi to support a national home for the Jewish people, meanwhile, fell on deaf ears, as he insisted that "Palestine belongs to the Arabs." Not only did Gandhi reject the cause of a Jewish state but he effectively echoed Nazi propaganda, as with his warning that "this cry for the national home affords a colorable justification for the German expulsion of the Jews."

Source:
http://gandhism.net/loveletters.php
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OThjMmNkZWYwMjI4OTc2YmVkZTcyZWRjNzMzMDRhOTU=

• Festival Challenged With Gandhi's Racism

The international propaganda for Gandhi that recently made the UN celebrate his birthday met with a setback in the "Gandhi Festival" at Reno, when volunteers shouted slogans such as "Don't be fooled by Gandhi propaganda - Side with truth!" and distributed pamphlets detailing Gandhi's extensive history of anti-minority discrimination. (http://gandhism.net/river-school.php) For other such news, check http://gandhism.net/news.php

• Gandhi's Last Words: "Hey Ram?"

Kalyanam Venkitaraman, 85, a personal assistant of the Father of the Nation, said: "I was standing hardly half a metre away when Godse pumped five bullets into Gandhi. He fell down immediately and never uttered a word."

"Somebody claimed he had heard Gandhi uttering 'Ram...Ram', but the truth is that he did not uter a single word.

"How can one do so when one is shot from such a short range?" said Venkitaraman, who worked with Gandhi from 1943 until his death in 1948.

"He died a disheartened, disillusioned and disappointed man. The communal clashes in the country had already saddened Bapu, leading to his death being filled with disillusionment and disappointment." (http://gandhism.net/gandhi-last-words.php)

• Bapu's Human Tryst

Rajmohan Gandhi, grandson of Gandhi, reveals in his book 'Mohandas: A True Story of a Man, His People and an Empire' that Gandhi had a love affair with Saraladevi, the 47-year-old Bengali wife of Rambhuj Dutt Chaudhuri, his Lahore host, and a niece of Tagore. This affair was no secret among Gandhi's family or close associates and threatened to ruin his marital life. (http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?233539)

Why did Gandhi, the apostle of truth, kept silent about it in his own autobiography, where he talks about a friend who induced him to go to a brother. Gandhi writes, "The same company would have led me into faithlessness to my wife. But I was saved by the skin of my teeth. ... I went into the jaws of sin, but God in His infinite mercy protected me against myself"

There are many, many facts about Gandhi which go to prove that Gandhi was a normal, ordinary, political leader although he had his own spiritual strengths. In the big picture, his Bible-based, Islam-appeasing and Hindu-bashing teaching of ahimsa as only for Hindus was the cause of the hypocrisy, and violence against Hindus that prevails in this sacred land of India, even after 60 years of independence. Had Netaji Subash Chandra Bose not died mysteriously and took over the helms of independent India along with Sardar Vallabhai Patel, we would have had a great Hindu and Vedic renaissance and be leading a true Hindu dharmic life today.

Some links:
"Gandhi: Behind the Mask of Divinity" by GB Singh
http://www.sikhsundesh.net/gandhi.htm

"Mahatma Gandhi's letters to Hitler" by Koenraad ELST
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/fascism/gandhihitler.html

"The Gandhi Nobody Knows" by Richard Grenier
http://gandhism.net/grenier.php

"Gandhi Interrogated" by Cornelia Sorabji
http://gandhism.net/sorabji.php

"Prabhupada Letter to Mahatma Gandhi"
http://nitaaiveda.com/NITAAI_Yoga_Forums/Share___Discuss_Bhakti___Katha/Prabhupada_Letter_to_Mahatma_Gandhi.htm

satyameva jayate!

[Harjas Kaur]

There is no truth or justice to the debate if people can't separate out political realities from religious ones. And THAT was Gandhi's teaching, to impose his unreasonable political interpretations of spirituality. Now imagine this from an autocratic political leader, regardless of whether he is dressed in robes or rags, being imposed on entire Indian population REGARDLESS OF THE CONSEQUENCES, regardless of whose lives are being sacrificed.

4. Was he a lunatic?:eek: Using your God-given common sense, is it reasonable to impose absurd restrictions of spiritual pacifism and self-surrender into a context of political and military realities? People have battle lines drawn on their door-step creating front lines of a WAR at partition, with no defense and told to LAY DOWN THEIR LIVES AND HONOR AS WILLING SACRIFICES to promote the peace?
WHOSE PEACE? WHAT KIND OF PEACE IS MUSLIM MASSACRE OF HINDUS? So I am asking you, on the basis of the above evidence, which confirms by direct and quoted sources exactly what Naturam Godse claimed was his rationale for the assassination of Gandhi:
because as a political leader he was leading Hindu's to suicide,
I ask you: WHO WAS THE LUNATIC?


But I do understand the sentiments of some of the fellow forum people and their anger against the people who commit atrocities. I find this pure human thinking and I am no exception. This is just more evidence of that absurd cultic mind-set of ludicrous and extreme interpretations of Vedantic principles of non-harm and real-life casualties. What is the sin in "pure human thinking?" Are we all not human? Can it even be possible that human beings should operate on imaginary level of spiritual peacefulness so as to exist without due care of their physicality? And to impose so ludicrous an interpretation on an entire nation of real life, flesh and blood, living and breathing people, and their children? GODSE WAS SAVING LIVES THAT GANDHI WAS THROWING AWAY!

"Many believe that, in the name of ‘chaotic condition’, he tacitly asked the Muslims to begin countrywide communal riot, if the Congress did not accept the partition."

"For months he was advising Hindus that they must never be angry with the Muslims. What sort of ahimsa (non-violence) is this?His principle of peace was bogus. In any free country, a person like him would be shot dead officially because he was encouraging the Muslims to kill Hindus."

"It is very simple: if Gandhi really believed that ahimsa and satya--non-violence and truth could work wonders, why did he not preach them to the warring and arrogant Muslims of his time? Is there any record that Gandhi actually advised a single Muslim about the two principles deemed so dear to his heart?"No one has adequately explained, in their defense of Gandhian political self-sacrifice on behalf of fanatic Muslims why it is perfectly okay for the Muslim fanatics to riot and commit atrocities but Hindu's are immoral, sinful, distorting scriptural principles and undeserving of the Mahatma's teachings, for personal failing of NOT wanting to be the victim! And this is reason why I personally feel Gandhi was insane. His political philosophy was not only insane it was murderous and destructive. Naturam Godse Ji was right. Gandhi had to be stopped before MORE massacres occurred to appease Muslims and Pakistan.

If the Mahatma was so great as claimed, why is there a nuclear Islamic jihadi nation next door threatening to obliterate India and Hindu religion?

Gandhi's path is political madness! Dharma doesn't say destroy yourself. That is a WARPED interpretation of Bhagavad-Gita by an insane person. What's so great about sentencing Hindu's to die as willing sacrifices to Muslim wolves? That's what you are calling a MAHATMA?

Fanatical Islam is the greatest threat to world peace that the world has ever seen. :eek:
Dr Zakir Naik - Who is responsible for Mumbai 26/11 terror attack?
http://www.youtu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReVT0QTzTzc)be.com/watch?v=ReVT0QTzTzc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReVT0QTzTzc)

[Harjas Kaur]

"There are many, many facts about Gandhi which go to prove that Gandhi was a normal, ordinary, political leader although he had his own spiritual strengths. In the big picture, his Bible-based, Islam-appeasing and Hindu-bashing teaching of ahimsa as only for Hindus was the cause of the hypocrisy, and violence against Hindus that prevails in this sacred land of India, even after 60 years of independence. Had Netaji Subash Chandra Bose not died mysteriously and took over the helms of independent India along with Sardar Vallabhai Patel, we would have had a great Hindu and Vedic renaissance and be leading a true Hindu dharmic life today."This is the thing, Gandhi was the only Nationalist accepted by the British, who did not want to lose a revolutionary war, and so helped create the myth of the non-violent man so they could exit India with military intact. The British knew Gandhi would be destructive to Indian interests but they didn't care, so long as he promoted non-violence during British withdrawal.

It was the British who helped promote partition as part of division and weakening India. The massacres of partition remain a blot against the mythological backdrop of the "great" mahatma. The creation of an Islamic Pakistan simply restored the hegemony of Mughal Raj on Hindustani territory after hundreds of years of war and struggle had established sanatan Sikh Kingdom in these territories.
"Hindus must never be angry with the Muslims. What sort of ahimsa (non-violence) is this?"
Stripped away from the myth, Gandhi's quotes and political policies were insane. Absolutely. Nowhere in this world does "peace" come from capitulation. What comes from capitulation is rape, torture and degradation. And that is why authentic heroes of Indian history such as Shivaji Maharaj and Guru Gobind Singh Ji and Subash Chandra Bose Ji were willing to risk life and limb in combat against evil forces to PROTECT innocents from slaughter and oppression. Who can gain anything by surrender? "To the victor go the spoils." And that plunder includes your culture, religion, women and children.

"Remember that the greatest crime is to compromise with injustice and wrong." ~Netaji Subash Chandra Bose

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Stamp_Azad_Hind.jpg/180px-Stamp_Azad_Hind.jpg
~Jai Hind!

[Harjas Kaur]

"Western 'democracies' excel in this creation of fear. First it was the russians now it is ISlamic fundamentalists." ~AmraEnough is enough.
Why of course the Islamic fundamentalists can never be criticized as having been wrong themselves or precipitating the fears. Why would a decent Hindu ever think that?
Taliban threatens to take over Pakistan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO0Nfknh1uc

Zaid Hamid Threatening to Massacre Hindus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwvts8sZ5YE

Zaid Hamid: Partition of India in near future. Indians should worry about their future
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHxskPQgh6Y

My religion is the only true religion: Childish Zakir Naik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2hN8w26SVU

Pakistan minorities flee 'religious persecution' - 26 Mar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDqZJjfVfrk

"A small threat is enlarged into a massive threat creating a mass psychosis an us and them ideaology. The tensions between India and Pakistan has always been there but this tension is being exploded into unreal proportions to keep people subservient to the economic state of India."India is exploding threat into unreal proportions? Really? And the Islamic jihadi people? They are not screaming the threats? Hindu's are imagining it all because they and not the jihadis are impure and materialistic and hence, unworthy? What kind of spiritual philosophy is this Amra?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3034/3106581645_f1d60294ac.jpg
Hospital workers desperately work to save victims of the Mumbai terror attacks
""Western 'democracies' excel in this creation of fear. First it was the russians now it is ISlamic fundamentalists...
but this tension is being exploded into unreal proportions."
"The enemy must fear us. When this is over there will be much more fear in the world." ~Ajmal/Azam Kasav, 2008 Mumbai attacker

"Note that Azam claims the terror team was trained by the Pakistani group Lashkar-e-Taiba,
the militant Islamists closely linked to Pakistans ISI intelligence service. Their goal,
he says, was to create a September 11 in India."
http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif
June 2009 Terror in Mumbai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k45qeLNe5zg

The complete confession of Kasab - Mumbai Terror Attack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAtKWvSlGxs

[atanu]

The Gandhi behind the Mahatma: did you know these facts?

• Gandhi supported Hitler and wrote letters to him?

The pacifist-Nazi axis dates to the 1930s. None other than the worldwide spokesman for non-violence, Mahatma Gandhi, wrote letters to Adolph Hitler that were deferential in their tone and abhorrent in their implications. A 1939 letter was apologetically described by Gandhi as a "mere impertinence" and included the following signoff: "I anticipate your forgiveness, if I have erred in writing to you. I remain, Your sincere friend, Sd. M. MK Gandhi."


Namaste Saidevo ji,

Please forgive my impertinence.

Much of the purported communication of Gandhiji is from the following: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OThjMmNkZWYwMjI4OTc2YmVkZTcyZWRjNzMzMDRhOTU=. And, it is really a surprise how anti Gandhism now picks material from the College of the Holy Cross (http://www.holycross.edu/). Please check. Business designs are really inscrutable, as much as God's will is. Really. How clever of these Christian-Jew business axis.

Moreover, I also note that the matter from the (anti) Gandhism site (and also in the write up of the teacher from the Holy Cross College) are from Gandhi's own writing. Well? Very few have the courage to admit of impertinence and mistake.


Had Netaji Subash Chandra Bose not died mysteriously and took over the helms of independent India along with Sardar Vallabhai Patel, we would have had a great Hindu and Vedic renaissance and be leading a true Hindu dharmic life today

How to prove any of these ifs and buts? Will speculating bring in the purported good?

Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya

[devotee]

Namaste all,

Gandhi cannot be understood by one or two sentences spoken by him taken out of context and he also cannot be understood by reading aggressive Hindu Organisations literature about Gandhi. We must do justice with Gandhi. We must have a complete picture of Gandhi & then say anything against him.

It is easy to malign anyone ... say something outrageous against any great personality ... that happened not only to Gandhi but also to Jesus, LOrd Krishna & also Lord Rama. It is very easy to malign .... it is very difficult to get into their shoes & be what they were.

Please remember what Gandhi ji had said, "If I have to choose between cowardice & violence & I will choose violence". What was Godse ? Was he a great thinker, a great ideologist who participated in India's freedom ? What actually was his contribution to the Hindu society & India ? Nothing which can be mentioned in his praise. He could not sell his ideas even to RSS ! He was a marginalised disgruntled person who didn't get much support from the important leaders of that time.

Gandhi ji always blamed for appeasing Muslims. Was it really a Muslim appeasing effort ? If yes, why did he do it facing criticism from almost all quarters ? What was his interest ? He had in mind the interest of the nation only. At the time of partition, he told Nehru that we must not hurry with partition & if Jinnah wanted to become the prime minister, let him become .... but no one listened to Gandhi then. Gandhi became irrelevant after we got independence because he didn't have any governmental powers !

Was it possible to drive away all Muslims from India after Partition ? Only a person who is living in delusion, oblivious of facts, will think so. It was an impossibility. Who gained by partition ? Pakistan is now a failed state because the basis on which this nation was built was flawed. What did Hindus get ? A painful bleeding wound for whole life as Pakistan ! If people would have listened to Gandhi at that time, this would have not happened.

Yet people blame Gandhi ! The man who laid his life for peace ... who sacrificed himself for his country (neglecting even his duties towards his family), who sacrificed the luxurious life of a barrister & adopted the life of a hermit for the sake of our country ... is under fire from his own countrymen today.

Mind it it was the word "Gandhi" which united India like nothing else. My father used to say, if Gandhi said, "We shall keep fast", people in villages also didn't cook at home. That was his influence over Indian population & that is why the English were afraid of him.

My dear friends, don't be guided by propaganda unleashed by some misguided people against Gandhi. A person like him is born only once in a thousand years. We are lucky that we are born in the country where this great soul was born.

OM

[Harjas Kaur]

Gandhi cannot be understood by one or two sentences spoken by him taken out of contextAre we not confronting the spectre of those teachings which chide Hindu's for self-defense and support Muslim jihadis? Where exactly is the misunderstanding if this entire thread has been a condemnation of right of India and Hindu people to protect own interests without being accused of materialism, demonism, lack of spirituality and distorting of scriptures while those militant Islamics are excused even terror bombing, and threats of nuclear annihilation.

So, if outrageous quotes attributed to Gandhi are saying the exact same thing as others on this thread, is it really out of context or is there some problem within Hindu mentality to view self-sacrifice as holy and be excusing Muslim violence?


It is easy to malign anyone ... say something outrageous against any great personalityWhat exactly is the maligning? That Indian nation and Hindu population should not sacrifice themselves in a holocaust to Muslim brutality and insane Abrahamic religious intolerance?

Where exactly is the error? Are you acknowledging the ideology in Gandhi quotes is so outrageous as to be maligning?

And if untrue and misapplied, then why is the thread promoting the exact same self-surrender in the face of mortal threats? It cannot be both false and true at the same time.

Gandhi ji always blamed for appeasing Muslims. Was it really a Muslim appeasing effort ? If yes, why did he do it facing criticism from almost all quarters ? What was his interest ? He had in mind the interest of the nation only. At the time of partition, he told Nehru that we must not hurry with partition & if Jinnah wanted to become the prime minister, let him become:eek: And this is NOT a Muslim appeasing effort? And if Jinnah had become Indian Prime Minister, then India would now be failed state.


Was it possible to drive away all Muslims from India after Partition ?Was it really necessary to sanction Muslim murders of Hindus by encouraging Muslims to riot in protest to initiate their demands and Hindus to lay down their lives in sacrifice for peace?

And why do people on this thread promote the same things saying India should disarm nuclear weapons, NOW! in real time, and return to Vedic spiritual principles of non-materialism and pacifistic self-surrender IN FACE OF MILITARY NUCLEAR AND TERRORIST THREATS from aggressive militants hell-bent on destroying India and Hindu religion? Tell me exactly in what way am I misguided about this? Then I will know better.


Yet people blame Gandhi ! The man who laid his life for peaceWho laid Punjabi's lives for appeasement by giving away territory of Punjab for creation of Islamist state. Are you saying it is false that Gandhi did NOT fast to manipulate support for partition? Are you saying Naturam Godse was lying when he gave up his life to stop Gandhi from giving stamp of approval to Hindu massacres?

Are you saying this is wrong and cannot possibly be what Gandhi said and represents? If that is the case why are all the Gandhi supporters here saying the exact same thing?


My dear friends, don't be guided by propaganda unleashed by some misguided people against Gandhi.If it is propaganda then Gandhi DID NOT say the things alleged here, and his teachings are not what is claimed, so the misguided people are Gandhi supporters. Because they continue to make the claim that Dharma means rolling over to die in order to appease your persecutors.

[chandu_69]

Gandhi had a double face--political and personal.Hypocratic Personal face of Gandhi that craved recognition for his brand of philosophy:

Advice to jews:
In a post-war interview in 1946, he offered a view at an even further extreme:
"Hitler," Gandhi said, "killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs… It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany… As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions."

in 1940, when invasion of the British Isles by Nazi Germany looked imminent, Gandhi offered the following advice to the British people (Non-Violence in Peace and War)
:
"I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions...If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them."

References:Gandhi, Mahatma (1972). Non-violence in peace and war, 1942–[1949]. Garland Publishing. ISBN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Book_Number) 0-8240-0375-6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-8240-0375-6).

Louis Fischer (1950), The life of Mahatma Gandhi (http://books.google.com/books?id=pHcGAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA348&q=%22cliffs%22), Harper, p. 348

[chandu_69]

Political face of Gandhi:

Gandhi launched a war recruitment campaign to enlist Indians to fight with the Allied forces in World war where 40000 indian soldiers persihed.

[Harjas Kaur]

My India has no enemies because the true India is made by the everyday people in their rituals and worship and who promote the Vedic tradition. I do not believe in the nation state of India because it is based on an unethical foundation- modern capitalism. The capitalist on a computer who lives in capitalist nation of Britain is calling as unethical! Gandhi fasted to compel Hindu's to support Pakistan. Now Hindu's and Gandhi supporters on this very thread are praising as Dharmic, this ideology of Amra who admits he does not believe Nation of India is valid and by interpretation, has no right to continue to exist.

Evaluate carefully what you people are praising and alternately calling as misguided. Because NOT only are you highly critical of Hindu rights to sovereign nationhood, material and economic success, and military security but excuse Islamic excesses. Time and again you have invalidated legitimacy of the same India which Gandhi "gave his life for." So India is not worthy. But Pakistan is worthy. Hindu's lives are not worthy, but Muslim jihadis are worthy.

Something indeed is corrupted, and that is COMMON SENSE!

[chandu_69]

It is also amusing to see Godse being elevated to heroism in contrast to ridiculing those who call Gandhi as Gandhi Ji. And as support for the condemnation of Gandhi Ji a doubtful source is cited again and again

Which one was the doubtful source?.Gandhi Ji gave similar advice to jews.Pls check post number 111

Btw, people should read what godse wrote for his reasons to kill Gandhi.



The message of Scriptures is twisted. We from India are becoming no different from fundamental religious groups.
Did any of the Hindus/sikhs posting here advocated murder of Non-hindus?

Passing comments without actually reading the posts is nonsense, to say the least.

[chandu_69]

India can never die. India can only be destroyed from within by sickos who promote hate and support nuclear genocide

Indians were dying from atleast the last 1000 years in the hands of abrahamic religions especially muslims.Being prepared to deal with a mad fellow is not promoting hate.About 50000 people died in India from pakistan sponsored terrorism.

The story of Hindu massacre:

ref:http://www.scribd.com/doc/19472915/CAA54ZSZ

Will Durant(author of Story of Civilisation) wrote
"the Mohammedan conquest of India was probably the bloodiest story in history".

India before the advent of Islamic imperialism was not exactly a zone of peace. There were plenty of wars fought by Hindu princes. But in all their wars, the Hindus had observed some time-honoured conventions sanctioned by the Sastras. The Brahmins and the Bhikshus were never molested. The cows were never killed. The temples were never touched. The chastity of women was never violated. The non-combatants were never killed or captured. A human habitation was never attacked unless it was a fort. The civil population was never plundered. War booty was an unknown item in the calculations of conquerors. The martial classes who clashed, mostly in open spaces, had a code of honor. Sacrifice of honor for victory or material gain was deemed as worse than death.

Islamic imperialism came with a different code--the Sunnah of the Prophet. It required its warriors to fall upon the helpless civil population after a decisive victory had been won on the battlefield.
It required them to sack and burn down villages and towns after the defenders had died fighting or had fled. The cows, the Brahmins, and the Bhikshus invited their special attention in mass murders of non-combatants. The temples and monasteries were their special targets in an orgy of pillage and arson. Those whom they did not kill, they captured and sold as slaves. The magnitude of the booty looted even from the bodies of the dead, was a measure of the success of a military mission. And they did all this as mujahids (holy warriors) and ghazls (kafir-killers) in the service of Allah and his Last Prophet.
Hindus found it very hard to understand the psychology of this new invader. For the first time in their history, Hindus were witnessing a scene which was described by Kanhadade Prabandha (1456 AD) in the following words:

"The conquering army burnt villages, devastated the land, plundered people's wealth, took Brahmins and children and women of all classes captive, flogged with thongs of raw hide, carried a moving prison with it, and converted the prisoners into obsequious Turks."

That was written in remembrance of Alauddin Khalji's invasion of Gujarat in the year l298 AD. But the gruesome game had started three centuries earlier when Mahmud Ghaznavi had vowed to invade India every year in order to destroy idolatry, kill the kafirs, capture prisoners of war, and plunder vast wealth for which India was well-known

[atanu]

Which one was the doubtful source?.Gandhi Ji gave similar advice to jews.Pls check post number 111

Namaste chandu,

It has already been said that the material is from Jew-Christian fundamentalist source.


Much of the purported communication of Gandhiji is from the following: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...WRjNzMzMDRhOTU (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OThjMmNkZWYwMjI4OTc2YmVkZTcyZWRjNzMzMDRhOTU)=. And, it is really a surprise how anti Gandhism now picks material from the College of the Holy Cross (http://www.holycross.edu/). Please check.

It is surprising that Indians cite material from American Ultra Right press that is dominated by very few sane persons. It is dominated by persons who think that Laissez Faire is their right. It is linked tightly with organisations such as the College of the Holy Cross (http://www.holycross.edu/) and similar other blatant missionary organisations.


Btw, people should read what godse wrote for his reasons to kill Gandhi.

No comments, since a reason to justify a murder cannot be sane.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Harjas Kaur]

It has already been said that the material is from Jew-Christian fundamentalist source.There are several dozen sources available on-line from which your Jewish-Christian link provides one derivative source. Shall I collect and list them all here?


Btw, people should read what godse wrote for his reasons to kill Gandhi.
No comments, since a reason to justify a murder cannot be sane.Then you acknowledge that Gandi was insane since he advocated Muslim murder of Hindu's and Sikhs, and most especially, despite any debate over words and distortions, such was the actual outcome.

[amra]

'The capitalist on a computer who lives in capitalist nation of Britain is calling as unethical! Gandhi fasted to compel Hindu's to support Pakistan. Now Hindu's and Gandhi supporters on this very thread are praising as Dharmic, this ideology of Amra who admits he does not believe Nation of India is valid and by interpretation, has no right to continue to exist.'

There is no point going on with this now, but I'd like to clear up some lies.
First I am not a capitalist just because i live in a capitalist system. A capitilist is someone who believes in the ideals of capitalism and if anyone has any sense they will see that I am furthest from a capitalist that anyone can be.

Because I live in a system I have no right to object against practices that I consider to be unethical and immoral? I have seen how the economic system has turned people here in England into psychopaths, violent crime is on the increase and half the population is classified with some sort of psychosis. Why would I keep silent and let this system be seen as some sort of inevitable process that we must accept.

Miss Harjas Kaur I never said India has no right to exist. This is a fallacy you have made up. You are using emotive statements to whip less discerning people into a frenzy so they cant think properly (O That evil Amra said India has no right to exist - how awful). I just pointed out what the modern economic system that India has adopted is based upon. This system is the one in place here in England. I do not agree with this system but I am obliged to live within it. To live within a system and fail to highlight its inadequacies and shortcomings is the height of immorality. I consider it my duty to show that the modern economic state is built upon adharmic principles.

My final point, is to be aware of people whipping up emotions, like the girl in the video. When our emotions are played on in this way the eyes of our budhi become clouded and we can be deceived and led on all the easier - as Sri Ram said Bhavana se ucha uthna

[atanu]

There are several dozen sources available on-line from which your Jewish-Christian link provides one derivative source. Shall I collect and list them all here?

I myself can create, not dozens but thousand sources by cutting and pasting.


Then you acknowledge that Gandi was insane since he advocated Muslim murder of Hindu's and Sikhs, and most especially, despite any debate over words and distortions, such was the actual outcome.

Gandhi ji never advocated murder. Actual outcome in this world is based on Guna interactions, which this thread is ample evidence of.

Om Namah Shivaya

[chandu_69]

To the post :Btw, people should read what godse wrote for his reasons to kill Gandhi.

ATANU replied:
No comments, since a reason to justify a murder cannot be sane.

What about Gandhi who felicitated murder by his Ahimsa principles.

Are you not ready to comment on gandhi whose Ahimsa vision facilitated Occupation of Kashmir by pakisthanis that paved way for terrorists incursion in to India
which in subsequent years caused More than 50000 people killed in Jammu and kashmir alone.

Had gandhi not agitated for paying money to fundamentalistic islamic theocratic nation pakistan their capacity to wage war against india would have been severely diminished if not became Nil.

Is it not correct to blame the peaceful Gandhi for the bloodshed?.

Who in his Right mind would have helped the jihadi pakistanis who formed the nation over the dead bodies of Hindus?

[chandu_69]

Amra My final point, is to be aware of people whipping up emotions, like the girl in the video.[/FONT]

It was your only point through out that hindus should bear the brunt of Jihadi murders and should never think about counter attack.Any amount of evidence(posted here) about disastrous results of the suicidal attitude of Gandhi didnt make people like you budge from clinging to the the stupid ahimsa vision of gandhi.

[Harjas Kaur]

but I'd like to clear up some lies. First I am not a capitalist just because i live in a capitalist system.Yet while you bask in the benefit of living in a capitalist society, in Britain, you condemn repeatedly the demonic and mayavi deteriortation of invalid modern Indian Nation. You call as lies. I call as hypocrisy.

Miss Harjas Kaur I never said India has no right to exist. This is a fallacy you have made up...

I just pointed out what the modern economic system that India has adopted is based upon. This system is the one in place here in England. I do not agree with this system but I am obliged to live within it.Oh really?

"I do not believe in the nation state of India because it is based on an unethical foundation- modern capitalism."

"with their brand of fanatical pan-hinduism- a handservant of the modern Indian capitalistic state - which is no better than the muslim fanatics they hate."Mind your words. You make such broad claims of impurity, demonic immorality, sinful, corrupted, vile and rotting the very system which you enjoy the benefits of materially, as in owning a computer... where is the logic?


Because I live in a system I have no right to object against practices that I consider to be unethical and immoral? So you are as unethical and immoral by living in such a system, participating in the materialism of such a system, yet reserve the right to object to your own lack of ethics and morality. This is all right. But don't you dare condemn India for doing the exact same thing you are doing, which is achieving a degree of material success and succor.


This attitude epitomised by ‘You can no more demand that a pig get out of the mud. When the pig is ready, it will get out of the mud’. Is merely an excuse to do nothing in the face of rabid consumerism and materialism. This is tacit support for what I have previously termed decomposing forces i.e. the forces behind western economic materialistic ideas. Tell me Amra Ji, how in your own life and accomodations, including computer you are doing something "different" exactly? And how as a citizen who pays rent and taxes are you NOT giving the same "tacit approval?" Is it "rabid consumerism" with which you bought your computer?


The idea of a nation arose in 17th century europe. India was never conceived of as a nation before the british. Any idea of a united 'India' before the English is a fallacy. What you call the 'Sanatana Dharma' is not the real Santana Dharma but a bastardized conception of post colonial India.IF the Indian nation is invalid and you do not believe in it, then what is stopping re-partition? How does this mentality NOT play into the hands of India's very real political enemies who assert India has no right to exist? IT IS THE SAME MENTALITY!


"In an article likely to raise Indian hackles, a Chinese strategist contends that Beijing should break up India into 20-30 independent states with the help of “friendly countries” like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal and Bhutan. Written in Chinese, the article, “If China takes a little action, the so-called Great Indian Federation can be broken up,” is published in the new edition of the website of the China International Institute for Strategic Studies (CIISS), an influential think tank that advises Beijing on global and strategic issues...

The article says that India could only be termed a “Hindu religious state” that is based on caste exploitation and which is coming in the way of modernisation. The writer goes on to argue that with these caste cleavages in mind,China in its own interest and the progress of whole of Asia should join forces with “different nationalities” like Assamese, Tamils and Kashmiris and support them in establishing independent nation states of their own. In particular, the article asks Beijing to support the United Liberation Front of Asom (ULFA), a militant separatist group in the Indian northeast, to it achieve independence for Assam from India. http://www.zeenews.com/image/spacer.gif http://www.zeenews.com/news554432.html
There is no Pakistan anywhere except in the hate filled kumati durbudhi of pro nuclear people. It in reality is some land on Earth which is part of mother Nature. Do you know you idiotic fools how much devastation radioactivity causes in the surrounding nature? Why not tell this to Pakistan which is stockpiling so many of them while making television shows where their own fanatics and generals threaten to use them against India?

[chandu_69]

Namste Atanu,

Namaste chandu,

It has already been said that the material is from Jew-Christian fundamentalist source.

Sorry you are wrong,
Just because he incorporated Gandhi's views in his book you dont go around making unsubstantiated allegations.


Dominique Lapierre is not a christian evangelist/fundamentalist.

Writing a book on formation of israel doesnt make one a jew fundamentalist.

One cannot be a christian and jewish fundamentalist at the same time:p

http://www.hindu.com/2009/02/06/stories/2009020656262000.htm

The comments about gandhi asking hindu ladies to allow rape is in line with his comments on Jewish holocaust(Louis Fischer (1950), The life of Mahatma Gandhi (http://books.google.com/books?id=pHcGAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA348&q=%22cliffs%22),)

Louis Fischer was an ardent admirer of Gandhi.

[saidevo]

namaste atanu.

For the one link you have picked up as quoted from a Christian Website, I have given other quotes that are more relevant in the Indian context from the Website http://gandhism.net/index.php

This Website has an explicit statement in the FAQ section that reads:
http://gandhism.net/faq.php



Most of our evidence is directly quoted from "The Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi," aka "CWMG." Much evidence is also taken from The Indian Opinion, a paper Gandhi published in South Africa to promote his political views. A smaller amount of evidence is also taken from primary sources such as interviews, affidavits, and articles."

"The Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi" is the official collection of Gandhi's writings. The first volume was published by the Indian government in 1960 and the last in 1994. There are 100 volumes and approximately 50,000 pages in the collection. References are abbreviated "CWMG" and include volume and page number (eg. CWMG Vol. 1, p. 1).


Considering that as Hindus, we examine even our gods critically, who is Gandhi to be exempted from such examination?

No Hindu can digest Gandhi's remarks about Hindu women submitting themselves to the rapist Muslims. This quote from the bestseller of Lapierre and Collins is most damaging, and along with the quotes on Jews that they should seek mass slaughter, questions the very sanity of the person who is adored as Mahatma!

As to your query on what 'ifs' and 'buts' can prove, I don't have to tell you the value of what-if analysis in business. It makes us better understand our dharma and history, and motivate us to prevent recursion of the adharmic trends that ruined us in the past.

[Harjas Kaur]

but I'd like to clear up some lies.Okay Amra Ji. Perhaps you could please clear this contradiction up from your HDF profile.


Date of Birth:
1st January 1920
Age:
89
Country:
England
Gender:
Male
Religion:
Sanatana Dharma
I never said I was a Hindu. I am not affiliated to any religion. There are objective truths of esotericism everywhere why limit yourself to one. Maybe I should have said the idea of nationalism. Can you say that before the british that India had a set boundary which defined a parcel of land as 'India'.
"I was raised in a Sikh family and i revere the Sikh Guru's and writings. Devotee, I am not against India I am against imagination."I still can't get over the fact that you're 89 years old. With respect, a person can take liberties with an online profile, but you seem to be changing your positions too. Religion: Sanatana Dharma. Then, I am not a Hindu. Then I was raised Sikh and revere the Gurus. Next, I have no religious affiliations. But one sure theme comes across loud and clear from your writing, India was nothing before the British and India is nothing now but an undeserved corruption.


You are using emotive statements to whip less discerning people into a frenzy so they cant think properly (O That evil Amra said India has no right to exist - how awful).Oh really? Your own words speak volumes. So, you are having this debate from the comfort of your British capitalistic society, as a non-Hindu. That's nice.

[Harjas Kaur]

There are several dozen sources available on-line from which your Jewish-Christian link provides one derivative source. Shall I collect and list them all here?
I myself can create, not dozens but thousand sources by cutting and pasting.

It has already been said that the material is from Jew-Christian fundamentalist source. Indeed. And this is only relevant if the alleged source is the primary source.

Chandu Ji quotes:
"I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions...If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them." References:Gandhi, Mahatma (1972). Non-violence in peace and war, 1942–[1949]. Garland Publishing. ISBN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Book_Number) 0-8240-0375-6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-8240-0375-6). Louis Fischer (1950), The life of Mahatma Gandhi (http://books.google.com/books?id=pHcGAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA348&q=%22cliffs%22), Harper, p. 348

Editorial Review - Kirkus Reviews Copyright (c) VNU Business Media, Inc. Louis Fischer- if any American could do it- is preeminently the person to write a biography of Mahatma Gandhi. An admirer and personal friend... In the main, the early years are based on Gandhi's own autobiography -- and on interviews with people who knew him in youth...That is not a Jew-Christian fundamentalist source. That is from a personal friend and follower of Gandhi who used Gandhi's own autobiography.

Then you acknowledge that Gandhi was insane since he advocated Muslim murder of Hindu's and Sikhs, and most especially, despite any debate over words and distortions, such was the actual outcome.
Gandhi ji never advocated murder. Actual outcome in this world is based on Guna interactions, which this thread is ample evidence of.as "mere" guna interactions? Gandhi did in fact create the stage on which guna interactions of defilement and massacre transpired and by omission did nothing to protect against them.

[atanu]

Indeed. And this is only relevant if the alleged source is the primary source.
That is not a Jew-Christian fundamentalist source. That is from a personal friend and follower of Gandhi who used Gandhi's own autobiography.

Namaste Kaur Ji

There goes another Jew source.
http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=32395

you can see passages from this jew writer in this very thread.



as "mere" guna interactions? Gandhi did in fact create the stage on which guna interactions of defilement and massacre transpired and by omission did nothing to protect against them.

Opinions in Net and in fiction do not constitute shruti. Can you show me the exact passage from "Freedom at Midnight", based on which all this maligning and abusive language is taking place? Gandhi worked to reduce the intensity of hatred, which some spread without knowing that it will come back. The object of hatred is the final abode of the hater. That is sure. That is basic Hinduism.


Om Namah Shivaya

[Harjas Kaur]

Opinions in Net and in fiction do not constitute shruti. Can you show me the exact passage from "Freedom at Midnight", based on which all this maligning and abusive language is taking place?
We are talking politics of military survival not Shruti. Can you be so kind as to point out what maligning and abusive language is taking place?


Gandhi worked to reduce the intensity of hatred, which some spread without knowing that it will come back. The object of hatred is the final abode of the hater. That is sure. That is basic Hinduism.
Why exactly are Hindus who wish to promote self-defense being accused as "haters" and not the radical jihadis who actively threaten genocide? Can you explain please? I've been asking that question for a few pages now. BASIC HINDUISM surely does not teach suicide as a moral principle.

We are discussing Gandhi's political actions and ideologies during partition where thousands of people were murdered. And this was in context of Gandhi's injunctions to surrender to the Muslims whatever they asked. So, if a Hindu mother is defiled and butchered by Muslims and 1. Gandhi promoted the partition, 2. FASTED to guilt the populatino to accept it, 3. DID nothing to prevent it, not even preaching same AHIMSA to the Muslims, and 4. ACTIVELY encouraged surrender and suicide...

then absolutely, Gandhi is to blame for failed political situation and for massacres against Hindu people. Even a dog will fight to defend itself from harm. Are Hindu people less than a dog that it becomes some "moral failing" if they become angry with persecutors and murderous mobs? Is it some Adharma now for them to defend themselves against vicious murderers?

See, this is what we are discussing. And if YOUR narrow interpretation of HIndu Dharm means all this, then don't abuse me as Adharmic for disagreeing. Guru Gobind Singh Ji Khalsa did not teach this political idiocy, so whatever you think my religion is supposed to be that I am not even following dutifully stops right there. In MY religion, I have the Dharmic and moral obligation to KILL a persecutor. END of story.

[atanu]

We are discussing Gandhi's political actions and ideologies during partition where thousands of people were murdered. And this was in context of Gandhi's injunctions to surrender to the Muslims whatever they asked.

Namaste Kaur Ji,

Gandhi exhorted non-compliance even at the cost of death and not cowardice.



Gandhi is to blame for failed political situation and for massacres against Hindu people
Om shanti Om shanti Om shanti

Harjas ji, I do not understand, how you are so sure? So, actually is not Ishwara responsible for massacre of Hindus?

Gandhi was a nimmitta matra -- a tool.

We are misguided, if we think that we are the real actors. We are mere theater actors. The true action takes place in the mental yagna of Ishwara --- which is not in this visible world.

Om shanti Om shanti Om shanti

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

namaste atanu.

For the one link you have picked up as quoted from a Christian Website, I have given other quotes that are more relevant in the Indian context from the Website http://gandhism.net/index.php

This Website has an explicit statement in the FAQ section that reads:
http://gandhism.net/faq.php

Namaste saidevo ji,

The following is another Jew source, which says the same.
http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=32395 (http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=32395)



Considering that as Hindus, we examine even our gods critically, who is Gandhi to be exempted from such examination?

Surely not. And I am not a Gandhi supporter. Examination reveals the truth.


No Hindu can digest Gandhi's remarks about Hindu women submitting themselves to the rapist Muslims. This quote from the bestseller of Lapierre and Collins is most damaging, and along with the quotes on Jews that they should seek mass slaughter, questions the very sanity of the person who is adored as Mahatma!

Well? Qoutes from the Jews and from a best seller should decide? Critiques even ensured that rAma and sItA did not go uncriticised. One name of Shiva is "One who is malligned much". How much water do criticisms hold?

But can we see the actual quote from the fictional novel and reserve the judgement?


As to your query on what 'ifs' and 'buts' can prove, I don't have to tell you the value of what-if analysis in business. It makes us better understand our dharma and history, and motivate us to prevent recursion of the adharmic trends that ruined us in the past.

KAla moves as per its own wish. We are nimmitta. I do not believe in the western mantra.

Moreover, if we critical of Gandhi writing to Hitler, then in the same way we must know that Subhas Chandra actually sided with the Nazi forces. What paradox? (note: i have no cheladom to either side).

Best Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste,

This thread has really become active recently!

After reading all the posts, I can be sure of one thing and one thing alone; pseudo-secular Indians are the greatest threat to India and Hinduism!

How on earth can you fight a robber, actually two in this case, in your house when your own family member is attacking you? This is analogous to the mindset of the pseudo-secular Hindus/Indians all over the world.

Remember, at the end of the day, India (that is Bharat) WAS, IS, and ALWAYS WILL BE a land FOR HINDUS, BY HINDUS, and OF HINDUS!

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism have no place in India and neither do their followers. The Dharmic religions have arisen from India itself and they can peacefully coexist with other religions so they are part of India. The Abrahamics were never, are not, and never will be part of India!

It is a real shame that Indians and what's infinitely worse, Hindus themselves, are digging the grave of their brethren allowing the ill-willed mlecchas to destroy Bharat and her culture with impunity.

Namaskar.

[Harjas Kaur]

It is a real shame that Indians and what's infinitely worse, Hindus themselves, are digging the grave of their brethren allowing the ill-willed mlecchas to destroy Bharat and her culture with impunity.TatTvamAsi Ji you have spoken eloquently the bitter truth.

[devotee]

Namaste TTA & Harjas Kaur ji,

Gandhi is being painted as who told Hindus to surrender to be killed by Muslims .... I wonder from where thse weird ideas are coming ? The term pseudo-secular & all ... I have heard these words ... these are nothing but political instruments to misguide people. It was BJP which coined this word ... but what did they do when they came to power ? ... anything different from the Congress ? These words coined by them serve their political interests only. I have been close to this ideology being an active member of RSS for quite some time. However, later on realised that these people's ideology is not in the best interests of India. They can be cause of only more & more sufferings to India. I was not a Gandhi admirer either to begin with ... but the more I knew about Gandhi the more I developed respect for him. ... and that is why I say that please don't become a victim of malicious propaganda against him. Yes, Gandhi was a human being only ... he might have committed some mistakes ... but how many of us can do whatever good he could do ?

I don't say that we should not be prepared for any aggression from Muslims or Pakistan but it would be sheer madness to go for a war imagining that there is an aggression or there is going to be an attack when there is none. I am in favour of having atom bombs but not for its use but just to prevent escalation of conflict ... just as a threat, nothing more.

If Gandhi is painted as a devil & Godse as the saviour, there is no need for people like me on this thread. I quit this thread here.

Best wishes ...

OM

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste Devotee,

I too am glad I am not the PM of India. If I had that kind of power, there would be no pakistan, bangladesh, or afghanistan! Those were all part of Bharat Varsha thousands of years ago and would be reclaimed by using absolute "IRON-FIST" force!! India would be cleansed of pseudo-secular Hindus/Indians, muslims, christians, communists, and other anti-Indians.

Secondly, I find it hard to believe you were actually part of RSS. I am not saying that you are lying, but your complete change of mindset is difficult to fathom. Again, RSS/VHP/BJP coming to power in India may not be the best solution, however, they are at least a solution for the time-being!

To sum it all up, instead of finding fault with patriotic Hindus and shouting at proud Hindus, what solution do you and others like you offer? That we fold our hands and continue to suffer under the tyranny of the muslims' violence year after year, the christians' devious conversion tactics, and the communists/maoists separatist violence? How do YOU propose we SOLVE THESE ISSUES? A solution that we want is that India, our ancestral homeland, is a SAFE, SECURE, and PEACEFUL place for Hindus to live life vivaciously and practice our philosophy uninterrupted. We are NOT looking to convert others or bother others; please find fault with the aggressors, NOT the victims! This is the biggest problem with the pseudo-secular Hindus.

Please, don't give me the analogy that all creation is Maya and hence it will work itself out! Perhaps, that may be true in the long run but just because a tsunami is made of the same substance that rain is, does not make them equal nor does it allow us to simply stand idly by. Being prepared and the willingness to defend is half the battle won!

Namaskar.


Namaste TTA & Harjas Kaur ji,

It is a great relief that you are not decision makers in India on such sensitive issues otherwise Pakistan would have been obliterated & more than half of India would have been wiped out & rest of Indians would have been half dead !

Gandhi is being painted as who told Hindus to surrender for being killed by Muslims .... I wonder from where this weird ideas are coming ? The term pseudo-secular & all ... I have heard these words ... these are nothing but political instruments to misguide people. It was BJP which coined this word ... but what did they do when they came to power ? ... anything different from the Congress ? These words coined by them serve their political interests only. I have been close to this ideology being an active member of RSS for quite some time. However, later on realised that these people's ideology is not in the best interests of India. They can be cause of only more & more sufferings to India. I was not a Gandhi admirer either to begin with ... but the more I knew about Gandhi the more I developed respect for him. ... and that is why I say that please don't become a victim of malicious propaganda against him. Yes, Gandhi was a human being only ... he might have committed some mistakes ... but how many of us can do whatever he good could do ?

If Gandhi is painted as a devil & Godse as the saviour, there is no need for people like me on this thread. I quit this thread here.

Best wishes ...

OM

[Harjas Kaur]

Does it occur to you that certain segment of Punjabi's hold Gandhi responsible for betrayal of Sikh interests and that this was huge factor in rise of Sikh militancy and agitation/morchas against the Indian state? These resentments are of long duration. I take exception by your broad claim that "rightest forces are antithetical to the scriptures." That is a personal judgment other people don't share. Better to qualify that"rightest forces"are antithetical to "YOUR interpretation and understanding of the scriptures." Personally, you are so short-sighted as to fail to realize that without moderating efforts of the Hindu right-wing, Sikh community would be hugely estranged from the Indian state.

Hindu right wing has done more than any other section of Indian society to try to heal the political estrangement of Sikhs. How can you condemn them while praising the man who butchered the Punjab as a political hero? If you take off Gandhi's "saint" halo can you still logically do this?

http://www.sikhfreedom.com/images/punjab.jpg

About 14.5 million refuges poured across the borders. Based on 1951 Census of displaced persons, 7,226,000 Muslims went to Pakistan from India while 7,249,000 Hindus and Sikhs moved to India from Pakistan immediately after partition. Estimates of the number of deaths range around 1,000,000, with low estimates at 500,000 and high estimates at 1,500,000. One of the pictures taken by BBC during the partition shows a street filled with dead bodies, where vultures were having their feast. Looking at the tragic scene Bourke-White's biographer Vicki Goldberg, writes “The street was short and narrow. Lying like the garbage across the street and in its open gutters were bodies of the dead."

In the March 1947 riots, the Sikhs of Rawalpindi faced annihilation and large number of them left the district. Within a few weeks almost the entire Sikh population had migrated from the district. Rioting in Punjab started in first week of December in the district of Hazara. A Holy war was declared on Hindus and Sikhs. Sikh habitations were wiped out, Gurdwaras were desecrated. Rioting in Lahore was started in March 4 1947, it started out as stabbing and small incidents and spread out to become arson and murder. Soon after Muslims in Amritsar (muslims were about 40-50% of population before partition) went rioting, a mob tried to attack Golden Temple and were repulsed with a pitched battle fought between handful of Sikhs under Jathedar Udham Singh Nagoke. Same day Muslims of Sharifpura (a suburb of Amristar), stopped a train full of refugees from Pakistan for slaughter. After this incident, Sikhs and Hindus in Amritsar were furious and many innocent Muslims had to bear the fury of anger. Soon after Amritsar was empty of Muslims. While total number of casualties were about same on both sides, about 100-150 million refugees were exchanged between both countries. There were large number of atrocities inflicted on women, many were abducted and raped.

In village Thoh Khalsa (now in Pakistan), 1000 Sikh and Hindu women jumped into well to save their honor after their menfolks were killed by Muslim mobs. It is estimated that about 1 million Hindus/Sikhs/Muslims were murdered and 10-50 millions were injured. Property lost was in trillion of dollars. A research states that the partition of India ranks, one of the 10 greatest tragedies in human history.http://www.punjabpartition.com/india_independence.html Stop looking at Gandhi with blinders on, as a politician he was as big a failure as he was success as a saint. Over 10 million people were displaced by Partition. His "peace efforts" led to decades of conflict. I'm surprised you're 1. pretending to analyze my personal motivations against my stated reasons, 2. utterly oblivious as to the poor reputation of Gandhi in Sikh circles. I'm sorry to inform you that Gandhi is largely hated. 3. Ignorant that Partition divided rich land of Sikh kingdom, creating minority status of Sikhs in their own land. 4. massacres of millions Sikhs along with looting of their properties leaving a generation destitute and without compensation, 5. further divisions of water and capitol and imposition of Hindi as state language over Punjabi, etc. All these factors are listed in the original Punjabi Suba morcha against Indian government. Let's have an education which is NOT the same thing as slander.

Does this have anything to do with Jews or Christians?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/Harjas/attack1-1.jpg
Punjabi Suba Morcha

The Pakistan Resolution passed by Indian Muslim League at Lahore in 1940, demanding a separate country comprising Muslim majority provinces, posed a serious threat to the Sikhs. In Pakistan as envisaged by the Muslim League, Sikhs would be reduced to a permanent minority, hence, to a subordinate position. The Shiromani Akali Dal opposed tooth and nail any scheme for the partition of the country. It successively rejected the Cripps' proposal (1942), RajaFormula (1944) and the Cabinet Mission Plan (1946). But the existing demographic realities were against the Sikhs. Nowhere in the Punjab (http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/punjab/punjab-history-and-culture.html) did they have a sizeable tract with a Sikh majority of population...

The major irritant was the language question. After Independence, the Sikhs expected Punjabi, mother tongue of all Punjabis, to replace Urdu as the official language and medium of education in schools... At the Centre too the Constituent Assembly rescinded its own resolution of August 1947 and declared on 26 May 1949 that "statutory reservation of seats for religious minorities should be abolished." The leaders of the Shiromani Akali Dal finally veered round to the view that, in the absence of constitutional guarantees to safeguard rights of the minorities, the only way out for the Sikhs was to strive for an area where they would be numerous enough to protect and develop their language and culture. http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-organisations/akali-dal-shiromani.htmlAnd so you see that the short-sighted government actions led to a permanent rift within the Sikh community which had formerly ruled these lands and were reduced completely to permanent minority status both in Pakistani Punjab and Indian Punjab. This, along with grievances for disastrous losses to Sikhs due to Partition was the beginning of the movement demanding a separate Sikh homeland and all the ensuing militancy and loss of life.

For "man of peace" Gandhi has single-handedly left a bloody list of resentments among people of the Punjab. I'm sorry you're so narrow in scope as to arrogantly think this has anything to do with "dubious" Jewish-Christian internet rumors." But that's another invalidation of Sikh grievances typical of secular Hindus who naively believe Gandhi could "do no wrong."

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm explaining my point of view on a discussion forum and educating the readers with background of those views. So it's educational. Perhaps many people here have no idea the motivation of the man who killed Gandhi. Regardless whether you praise, condemn or are indifferent about his act, it was pivotal in Indian history. So it's useful to explore that history in view of trying to avoid repeating the same mistakes.

First mistake is for a politician to think he is God and can make no mistakes.

Second mistake is to raise a generation of young people with the same uncritical, non-thinking delusion garnering power only for family with Gandhi name living off hype of Gandhi reputation.

Third mistake is to paint over dirty politics with a religious brush to give authoritarian dictates the stroke of spiritual mandate regardless how insane they are.

Only those with blinders on who can't possibly imagine a critical voice even exists for their beloved Gandhi will get blindsided by the actual degree of hostility for him and his views in some quarters of Indian society.

[saidevo]

namaste atanu.

1. Again you have picked on only the Jewish link among the many from the gandhism.net Website I have given, which clearly states Gandhi's complete works to be their source. I am not surprised that Gandhi's remark against the Jews is discussed in Jewish Christian sources, although David Lewis Schaefer, a professor of political science at the College of the Holy Cross, does not quote his source for Gandhi's remarks.

2. If you are not a Gandhi supporter, I wonder why you should take on Gandhi opposers here with such foreceful expressions, even if there is emotion behind their remarks. If the agression of Abrahamic adharmic forces that seek to destroy the nation and culture of Bharat, and the Hindu reactions to them in thought, word and action are guNa interactions, be it so, inasmuch the reaction is also Ishvara's lIlA.

There can be no game where only one side plays and the other simply submits; no play or fiction where the villain always wins. Dharma has many facets (svadharma, samUha dharma, yuddha dharma, dharma-rakShaNa-dharma and so on); in the mix-up of varNas in today's India, everyone has the makeup of the characteristics of all the four varNas, besides the three guNas, and that too is Ishvara's intention.

3. To be honest, as for the quote against Gandhi from the bestseller 'Freedom at Midnight', I have a crumbling 1975 edition of the book by Vikas that I bought in 1978 and don't remember to have read in full: there is no page 479 in that book, nor could I readily trace the quote; but then the Net sources seek to quote a 'revised edition' of the book, which is not listed for free reading so far as I can search.

Anyway, I am sure that Gandhi sided with Muslims and chided the Hindus and Sikhs with harsh remarks that can certainly be found in his complete works. And Gandhi always resorted to fasting to prevent Hindus from acting or even reacting; did he undertake any fast to cure a Muslim agression against Hindus and Sikhs?

4. Hindutva is not a bad word or one that connotes terrorism or deception.. Supreme Court of India has defined it as "as a way of life or a state of mind and is not to be equated with or understood as religious Hindu fundamentalism." So, there is nothing wrong with Hindus associating with the concept of Hindutva; in fact, Hindus who care for their religion, nation and culture, should. The Sang Parivar that seeks to implement the concept as a governmental policy is not a terrorist organization. In case anyone goes overboard using the name and concept of Hindutva, the other, peaceful Hindus should correct the trend and not spurn the concept altogether.

In the SC judgment the Court ruled that "Ordinarily, Hindutva is understood as a way of life or a state of mind and is not to be equated with or understood as religious Hindu fundamentalism. A Hindu may embrace a non-Hindu religion without ceasing to be a Hindu and since the Hindu is disposed to think synthetically and to regard other forms of worship, strange gods and divergent doctrines as inadequate rather than wrong or objectionable, he tends to believe that the highest divine powers complement each other for the well-being of the world and mankind." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva)

The trouble is that the non-Hindus of India as well as a large number of misguided, indifferent Hindus do not conform or want to conform to the unique tradition, culture and civilization of the Nation. They do not also mind their ways or seek a peaceful co-existence with the majority Hindus in India. In every case of agression, the Hindu only reacts, sometimes with equal force, and that is not adharma or play of guNas. It is an admirable reaction of dharma rakShaNam that shrI kRiShNa would be proud of.

As for Gandhi, most people in India remember and want him more in the smaller and larger denominations of the Indian currency bills--than in personal, religious or social life. People who seek to 'spread' his name, remember him only on his birthday; the Gandhi propagandists do much harm to his image than the Gandhi opposers.

[devotee]

Namaste TTA,

I had thought that I would not come back to this thread but you have asked very important questions which I think I must answer to clarify my viewpoint.




I too am glad I am not the PM of India. If I had that kind of power, there would be no pakistan, bangladesh, or afghanistan! Those were all part of Bharat Varsha thousands of years ago and would be reclaimed by using absolute "IRON-FIST" force!! India would be cleansed of pseudo-secular Hindus/Indians, muslims, christians, communists, and other anti-Indians.

That brings a smile on my face ! That is what I used to think when I was young. :) My dear friend, please also account for what we will lose ! That Iron-fist will kill our own innocent Hindus too ! I think that you are aware that if you use force, others too won't be keeping silent. Do you remember Kargil War ? The BJP was in power & there was a clear aggression from Pakistani side. The peaks, the Pakistani Army was occupying was in their advantage & they could easily target our troops & that is what they did. The only solution was use of Air Force against the enemy. Why the BJP Govt took this decision to use Air Force so late that we suffered one of the worst casualties in this war ? It was just a matter of hours for our mighty Air Force ... why the BJP Govt which always uses hawkish tone when not in power, did not exercise this option immediately ?

This should not give an impression that I am against BJP as I have voted for BJP more often than I did for any other party. What I want to point out here that we have to weigh all options before taking any such decision & that anyone in power will do.


To sum it all up, instead of finding fault with patriotic Hindus and shouting at proud Hindus, what solution do you and others like you offer? That we fold our hands and continue to suffer under the tyranny of the muslims' violence year after year, the christians' devious conversion tactics, and the communists/maoists separatist violence? How do YOU propose we SOLVE THESE ISSUES? A solution that we want is that India, our ancestral homeland, is a SAFE, SECURE, and PEACEFUL place for Hindus to live life vivaciously and practice our philosophy uninterrupted. We are NOT looking to convert others or bother others; please find fault with the aggressors, NOT the victims! This is the biggest problem with the pseudo-secular Hindus.

See, these are very important & serious questions for all Indians. However, you must keep in mind the ground realities. India has more than 120 Millions of Muslims ... the 2nd largest population of Muslims in the world. You cannot finish them without ruining your own country entirely. But let us pause for a minute & think : What is our prime motive ? To obliterate Muslims or to have a SAFE, SECURE and PEACEFUL place for Hindus ? As you have rightly pointed out it is the later. Now, what is stopping us from making this country our dreamland ? Is it the Muslims ? The politicians, who made UP & Bihar a hell today, were not Muslims. The people who made us fight over Hindi Vs Tamil were not Muslims. The politicians who advocated Maharashtra for the Marathis only & indluged in killing looting our own innocent poor Hindu brethren , are not Muslims. The man who threw this nation into the fire of caste-politics was not a Muslim but a Hindu. And who supported the well known traitor & dreaded Muslim criminal of India (now behind bars) & helped him become MP (from Bihar) & when he was sent to Jail, was not ashamed to bring his wife to stand in election ... who was he , a Muslim or a Hindu ??

Will we become more secure by inciting communal violence ? History has proved that it would be the height of foolishness to think so. However, the threat is there. It is not from the majority of Muslims ... it is from our own politicians. Do you know about Assam & how its demography has been allowed to change by allowing the illegal migrant Muslims from Bangladesh to not only settle but also to give them fake documents to prove that they were actually Indians ? This has already happened in Kishenganj area of Bihar where no one can dare go against the illegal migrant Bangladeshi Muslims. Who did all this & why ? Was it possible without the tacit support majority of Hindu politicians ?

We must learn to live together peacefully ... both Hindus & Muslims ... there is no other alternative. We also recognise this fact that all Hindus are not patriotic & similarly all Muslims are not traitors. There is a very small section within the Indian Muslims who are not patriotic & most of them actually are victim of propaganda war of Pakistani fools who are dreaming for long to disintegrate this country. We must make efforts to segregate the small section of misguided Muslims from those majority who are patriotic & liberal.

There should be an independent agency working as a constitutional authority which should enjoy wide ranging powers to arrest & prosecute people anywhere in India who are found indulging in anti-national activities. They need not take permission from any local Govt for that. They may have special courts to try such cases & award punishment to the culprits. That would be the Iron-hand free from political influences we need to save this country from internal threats. Any person who incites people on the basis of caste, religion, language or region should be considered a traitor.

The Prime-minister or a Chief Minister should be chosen directly & not by the representatives & once chosen, his/her tenure as PM/Cm should be fixed. This will ensure that the elected PM has the support of the majority Hindus & that will also root out the fear of withdrawal of support by such petty parties & unnecessary appeasement policy of any kind.

Our forces must be fully prepared to send chill through the spine of our enemies. However, we should not be unnecessary aggressive but must work towards finding solutions through dialogues instead of wars.


Please, don't give me the analogy that all creation is Maya and hence it will work itself out! Perhaps, that may be true in the long run but just because a tsunami is made of the same substance that rain is, does not make them equal nor does it allow us to simply stand idly by. Being prepared and the willingness to defend is half the battle won!

Rest assured, I won't. I wholeheartedly support you for being fully prepared & resolve to defend but I don't support jingoism which can lead us only to destruction.

Though this post has already become quite lengthy, I would like to end this with a story :

In a village, there was one Rajput (Kshatriya) & one Bania (Viashya). Rajput sported big moustaches & never allowed anyone to have a bigger moustache than his. However, the Bania grew his moustache secretly bigger than that of the Rajput & somehow this news reached Rajput who was furious on hearing this. He immediately called Bania & challenged him to fight with a condition that whoever survives the fight would keep the moustache & the loser would anyway die. Both came to the ground with swords in their hands. However, just before this fight, Bania said,"Dear friend, in this fight, either I would survive or you. In either case, the dead's family would have to suffer a lot because we are the breadwinners for our entire family. Who will take care of our children once we die. So, it is better we kill them before starting this fight so that they are saved from the sufferings after our death." Both agreed & went back home to kill their family members.

After sometime, the Rajput came back to the ground after killing all his family members with his blood dripping sword. Bania also came back immediately afterwards ... but not with blood dripping sword but with shaved moustache !

I may not like the Muslims & Pakistan but I certainly don't want to be the Rajput !

OM

[atanu]

namaste atanu.
3. To be honest, as for the quote against Gandhi from the bestseller 'Freedom at Midnight', I have a crumbling 1975 edition of the book by Vikas that I bought in 1978 and don't remember to have read in full: there is no page 479 in that book, nor could I readily trace the quote; but then the Net sources seek to quote a 'revised edition' of the book, which is not listed for free reading so far as I can search.


Namaste saidevo ji,

That is why I always look up to you with reverence. That much only is my point: there is no page 479 in that book (Freedom at Midnight).

I respect your faith and belief.

But I am also sincere in my belief that the cause of India and Hinduism cannot be served by being iconoclastic and nihilistic. Standing firmly against wrong is one thing and attacking Rabindranath Tagore, blaming him as having written Jana Gana Mana for some king; attacking Paramhamsa Ramakrishna to have damaged cause of hinduism and accusing him of homosexuality; and attacking Gandhi with imaginary statements, is not a dignified thing to do. And these are mere opinions.

Most of these attacks have had their origin elsewhere -- either initiated by some Jew or some self professed hindu, who actually is a missionary's son.

But, I wish I could be away from all these, since nothing exists outside my own consciousness. It is my problem. Not of another.

Regards

Om

[Harjas Kaur]

In a village, there was one Rajput (Kshatriya) & one Bania (Viashya). Rajput sported big moustaches & never allowed anyone to have a bigger moustache than his. However, the Bania grew his moustache secretly bigger than that of the Rajput & somehow this news reached Rajput who was furious on hearing this. He immediately called Bania & challenged him to fight with a condition that whoever survives the fight would keep the moustache & the loser would anyway die. Both came to the ground with swords in their hands. However, just before this fight, Bania said,"Dear friend, in this fight, either I would survive or you. In either case, the dead's family would have to suffer a lot because we are the breadwinners for our entire family. Who will take care of our children once we die. So, it is better we kill them before starting this fight so that they are saved from the sufferings after our death." Both agreed & went back home to kill their family members.

After sometime, the Rajput came back to the ground after killing all his family members with his blood dripping sword. Bania also came back immediately afterwards ... but not with blood dripping sword but with shaved moustache !

I may not like the Muslims & Pakistan but I certainly don't want to be the Rajput !Cute story. However there is dramatically more brutality throughout Indian history on part of Muslims against Hindus then ever there was by Rajput defenders. So the story only reflects more self-hating bias and is not even reflective of Muslims Jihadis who are suicide bombers to their ideology. Whose sword would come dripping with blood of family members I wonder.

http://www.info-sikh.com/RSS8.jpg
Dhan Dhan Lachhman Das/Banda Singh Bahadur Ji!
Great Sikh General, Defender of Honor of Punjab, born a Minhas Rajput

I would like to share history which is not a story:

Towards the end of November 1715, the remaining defenders were running out of ammunition and food. They were trying to exist on boiled leaves and the bark of trees, and were gradually reduced to mere skeletons. Then on December 17, 1715, Abdus Samad Khan, one of the Mughal commanders, shouted across the separating moat, that he would not allow any killing by his men, if Banda opened the gate to the fortress. When Banda ordered the gate be opened, the Mughals rushed in to spear or stab as many as three hundred of the half-dead and helpless defenders. About seven hundred were captured alive and handcuffed in twos. Banda had chains round his ankles and his wrists, and was then locked in an iron cage...

on Sunday, June 9, 1716. Banda's cage was again hoisted on top of an elephant, and he was dressed in the mock attire of an emperor, with a colourful red pointed turban on his head. His four-year old son, Ajai Singh was placed in his lap. The twenty chiefs marched behind the elephant and this procession then passed through the streets of Delhi, and headed for the mausoleum of Bahadur Shah, near the Qutub Minar. On reaching the graveyard, the captives were again offered a choice of two alternatives: conversion to Islam (http://wapedia.mobi/en/Islam) or death. All chose death. They were tortured again before being being executed. Their heads were then impaled on spears and arranged in a circle around Banda who was now squatting on the ground. There were hundreds of spectators standing around watching this scene.

Banda Singh Bahadur was then given a short sword and ordered to kill his own son Ajai Singh. As he sat unperturbed, the executioner moved forward and plunged his sword into the little child cutting the body into two. Then pieces of flesh were cut from the body and thrown in Banda's face. His liver was removed and thrust into Banda Singh's mouth. The father sat through all this without any signs of emotion...

The executioner then stepped forward and thrust the point of his dagger into Banda's right eye, pulling out the eyeball. He then pulled out the other eyeball. Banda sat through all this as still as a rock. His face gave no twitch of pain.


Then the executioner took his sword and slashed off Banda's left foot, then both his arms. But Banda's features were still calm as if he was at peace with his Creator. Finally they tore off his flesh with red-hot pincers, and there being nothing else left in their book of tortures, they cut his body up into a hundred pieces, and were satisfied. (These details of the torture are given in full, by the following writers: Mohammed Harisi, Khafi Khan, Thornton, Elphinstone, Daneshwar and others). http://wapedia.mobi/en/Banda_Singh_Bahadur?t=7.#9.Rajaputra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchbfhwLOg0

Rajput Martyrs - Kargil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_3BHI0LEdw

[Harjas Kaur]

But I am also sincere in my belief that the cause of India and Hinduism cannot be served by being iconoclastic and nihilistic. Standing firmly against wrong is one thing and attacking Rabindranath Tagore, blaming him as having written Jana Gana Mana for some king; attacking Paramhamsa Ramakrishna to have damaged cause of hinduism and accusing him of homosexuality; and attacking Gandhi with imaginary statements, is not a dignified thing to do. And these are mere opinions.

Most of these attacks have had their origin elsewhere -- either initiated by some Jew or some self professed hindu, who actually is a missionary's son.
And others are equally sincere in the belief that Gandhi and pacifism is the Father of partition and Pakistan, having nothing to do with the dubious sources and unrelated issues you just cited. Attacks on Gandhi have to do with his POLITICS and his IDEOLOGY and the OUTCOME and not on spurious disrespect by Jewish and Christian maligners.

Show at least respect for the fact that other points of view which disagree with yours are not invalid or invented. A divided Punjab and millions dead is NOT a fiction.

[atanu]

And others are equally sincere in the belief that Gandhi and pacifism is the Father of partition and Pakistan, having nothing to do with the dubious sources and unrelated issues you just cited. Attacks on Gandhi have to do with his POLITICS and his IDEOLOGY and the OUTCOME and not on spurious disrespect by Jewish and Christian maligners.


Namaste Harjas,

It is curious. You are not able to show the statement ascribed to Gandhi from "Freedom at Midnight" and yet -----.

A divided Punjab and millions dead is NOT a fiction.

Exactly. Do not mix fiction with that.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Harjas Kaur]

It is curious. You are not able to show the statement ascribed to Gandhi from "Freedom at Midnight" and yet -----.First of all I had no idea what you were talking about and had to go through 11 pages of this thread to find it. Second of all, I am not the person who quoted the reference, and reading it you see my response below.




Quote.......


Gandhi advised them that if a Muslim expressed his desire to rape a Hindu or a Sikh lady, she should never refuse him but cooperate with him. She should lie down like a dead with her tongue in between her teeth. Thus the rapist Muslim will be satisfied soon and sooner he leave her...


.......unquote



Ref: (From the book (Freedom at Midnight, Vikas(reprint), 1997, p-479 D Lapierre and L Collins, ). (original:http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-at-Mid.../dp/0006388515 (http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-at-Midnight-Larry-Collins/dp/0006388515)) Gandhi said this?
Dhan Dhan Nathuram Godse Ji.Thirdly, now I will have to buy the book simply to investigate the drama regarding alleged fakery or not, and if I find the quote I'm going to beat you for going through all the trouble. I don't know what the problem is, the book has 656 pages why the 479th page wouldn't be there. I do know Congress Party has suppressed and banned a lot of material supporting Naturam Godse over the years, so it could have been edited in particular editions, I don't know. I've never read that book.


In all, this book is a complete documentation of the Indian political imbroglio at the time of Partition, and the helpless struggle of Mahatma Gandhi to save his country from Partition and from the clutches of his political foe, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, and Gandhi's final moments, which have been documented with frightful detail. http://en.wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_at_Midnight)/wiki/Freedom_at_Midnight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_at_Midnight)You and I come from radically different backgrounds with radically different values system and beliefs. My ire has been directed toward Gandhi and his policies of appeasement which had dramatically destructive effect on entire Sikh community. And I come at that perspective as being a Sikh. As I said before, among majority Sikhs, Gandhi name is reviled and associated with deep betrayals. You can attack me as vile sinner, horrible ignorant, demonic personality, or guna queen. It won't change my perspective. In fact, the more hostility you people heap on me, the more determined I am.

You haven't once analyzed or given fair response to any of the many historic points I brought up about wound of Partition and it's adverse effects on Sikh community. Perhaps you don't give a damn about that. Yet here you are going on about some quote, as if by erasing it you could erase the debate. To be honest, I could care less if he said it or not. His entire personal philosophy of sacrifice to a mortal enemy and Muslim appeasement is the most degrading thing imaginable. Am I not entitled to a POV?

I have nowhere personally praised attack on Pakistan. I have praised Indian willingness to stand up and fight back and meet the threats directly. Yet :duel:



A divided Punjab and millions dead is NOT a fiction. Exactly. Do not mix fiction with that. Are you calling dead Sikhs a fiction? I dare you to go post that on a Sikh forum and see what response you get. Why are you fighting with me? I'm on your side, if you can believe it.

[saidevo]

Now we have an impeccable source for original reference on Gandhi by Gandhi. Here is the Website that hosts 98 volumes of the 'Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi Online' as downloadable pdf documents with an online search facility: http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/cwmg.html

Let us make use of this valuable resource to study the man in the mahAtma and the mahAtma in the man.

[Harjas Kaur]

How Sikhs saved their women from Muslim Mobs during Partition of 1947



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WQtUYv1_-s


The Partition of India in 1947 A True Story by Kuldip Singh Neelam


http://www.likhari.org/Likhari%20Pages%202009/5527%20Kuldeep%20singh%20neelam_The%20Partition%20of%20India%2014%20September%202009.htm (http://www.likhari.org/Likhari%20Pages%202009/5527%20Kuldeep%20singh%20neelam_The%20Partition%20of%20India%2014%20September%202009.htm)

Stop looking at Gandhi with blinders on, as a politician he was as big a failure as he was success as a saint. Over 10 million people were displaced by Partition. His "peace efforts" led to decades of conflict...

First mistake is for a politician to think he is God and can make no mistakes. Now if I wrote this, why is it even a question? Do you think I'm so ignorant as not to know the difference between Indira Feroze Khan daughter of Nehru whose husband was adopted by Gandhi to conceal his Muslim background and hand mantle of political authority to Nehru family? I've posted 2 maps showing complete rupture and butchery of Punjab region that Gandhi's politics of appeasement to Lord Mountbatten and Jinnah, I'm thinking you just don't care about any of that.

Your whole defense is based on the hope that there is a mis-quote in one quote posted out of many which show the remarkable naivete and downright self-destructiveness of Gandhi's political program. You don't offer ANY other form of rebuttal other than to attack my personal character.


A few months later he breached another boundary of sober politics. The one time advocate of constitutional propriety now espoused violence and even terror. On 16 August 1946, Jinnah made his final bid for Pakistan by launching the Direct Action Day: “This day we bid good-bye to constitutional methods…We have forged a pistol and we are prepared to use it.” Jinnah threatened, “We shall have India divided or we shall have India destroyed.”Now, you have Bapu, Father of the Nation, the Great Mahatma, and what does he do about it? He undertakes a suicidal fast unto death to compel Congress to give treasury to new state of Pakistan. I'm sorry you can't see that Gandhi's pacifistic policies were an utter failure. Was he sincere? Probably. Was he holy? Maybe. Was he brahmgyani? Spare me. He was politically naive and got millions killed, and that's why he died. It's been said, "people make mistakes. But when powerful people make mistakes, they make catastrophic blunders." How in the face of such catastrophic blunders, including a letter to Adolf Hitler calling as "Dear friend" and "brother" anyone can fail to see the impracticality of "winning hearts and minds of evil people through being nice and offering no physical resistance to violence?"

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KM4BaB8DTMk/Se2g9hOLDeI/AAAAAAAAA88/MgzuKC3W8PM/s400/gandhi+letter.JPG


It is a common belief in India and in the Western world that Gandhi through his non-violence Satyagraha has gave India independence from the British rule. The truth is somehow very different. According to the British Prime Minister Clement Attlee, during whose regime India became free, the creation of the INA (Indian National Army) and mutiny the RIN (Royal Indian Navy) of February 18-23 1946 made the British realise that their time was up in India. An extract from a letter written by P.V. Chuckraborty, former Chief Justice of Calcutta High Court, on March 30 1976, reads thus:

"When I was acting as Governor of West Bengal in 1956, Lord Clement Attlee, who as the British Prime Minister in post war years was responsible for India's freedom, visited India and stayed in Raj Bhavan Calcutta for two days. I put it straight to him like this: "The Quit India Movement of Gandhi practically died out long before 1947 and there was nothing in the Indian situation at that time which made it necessary for the British to leave India in a hurry. Why then did
they do so?' In reply Attlee cited several reasons, the most important of which were the INA activities of Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose, which weakened the very foundation of the British Empire in India, and the RIN Mutiny which made the British realise that the Indian armed forces could no longer be trusted to prop up the British. When asked about the extent to which the British decision to quit India was influenced by Mahatma Gandhi's 1942 movement, Attlee's lips widened in smile of disdain and he uttered, slowly, "Minimal'."

(in Anuj Dhar's website: www.hindustantime.com/news/specials/Netaji/; (http://www.hindustantime.com/news/specials/Netaji/;) Dhanjaya Bhat, The Tribune, February 12, 2006; Majumdar, R. C., Jibanera Smritideepe, Calcutta, General Printers and Publishers, 1978, pp. 229-230; R.Borra, "Subhas Chandra Bose, The Indian National Army, and The War of Indias Liberation', The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1982 (Vol. 3, No. 4), pages 407-439;http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v03/v03p407_Borra.html) http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.indian/2007-11/msg00131.html (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v03/v03p407_Borra.html%29%20http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.indian/2007-11/msg00131.html)

[atanu]

Now we have an impeccable source for original reference on Gandhi by Gandhi. Here is the Website that hosts 98 volumes of the 'Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi Online' as downloadable pdf documents with an online search facility: http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/cwmg.html

Let us make use of this valuable resource to study the man in the mahAtma and the mahAtma in the man.

Namaste Saidevo ji,

Thank you for the link. I did a preliminary search and I cannot find any utterance or letter of Gandhi that instructs Hindu or Sikh women to cooperate with the rapists.

It is incredulous that we can even imagine such a thing.

I have collected the related matter and I paste them below:




1. TALK TO RELIEF WORKERS1
CHANDPUR,
November 7, 1946
There is nothing courageous in thousands of Mussalmans killing out a handful of Hindus in their midst, but that the Hindus should have degraded themselves by such cowardice, i.e., being witness to abduction and rape, forcible conversion and forcible marriage of their womenfolk, is heartrending.
--------------
The whole thing is so ghastly. You do not need to exaggerate it. I have told the authorities I do not care for numbers. Has a single case of abduction, rape, forcible marriage, or forcible conversion occurred? If so, it is enough for me. It is admitted that such things have happened.

VOL. 39 : 4 JUNE, 1927 - 1 SEPTEMBER, 1927 (Note: This is the only view which can be construed as somewhat drastic and possibly anti feminist)
1. LETTER TO SECRETARY, A.I.S.A.
NANDI HILLS,
June 4, 1927
If we take count of cases of rape in the world, we shall discover that such incidents are very rare. A woman’s virtue is violated through both the man and the woman acting voluntarily, and if a woman is self-controlled and pure in mind, violation of her virtue is impossible. This is true in two senses. One is that the Shastras proclaim, and it must be believed, that the body of one whose mind is pure in every way is protected by the mind itself, just as Sita’s mind protected her body. As you know, Ravana could not outrage Sita’s modesty, and the reason was not that he did not possess brute strength, but that he knew that if he tried to assault her his body would be burnt to ashes that very moment; and so he tried to win her consent through all manner of means, deceptions and threats, but they were of no avail in the face of Sita’s strength of mind. And the second meaning is that, if a woman’s mind is pure, her virtue is not violated and she is not stained by sin, even though she may have been raped. Neither will the world reproach her, nor will
there be anything against her from the point of view of dharma.

117. LETTER TO SHARDA C. SHAH
September 19, 1932
CHI. BABUDI (SHARDA),
What fine questions you have asked! One who is determined to die can always end her life by biting off her tongue, by pressing the hands tightly against her throat and, if she has been bound, by breaking her bones trying to loosen herself. And a very holy woman can end her life even by a sheer act of will. This will, no doubt, be suicide but in certain circumstances suicide becomes one’s dharma. When a wicked man tries to rape a woman, suicide becomes necessary
if there is no other way of saving her honour.1


Vide “Speech at Bettiah”, December 8, 1920. (M. K. suggests that it is better to use violence rather than submit to rape of India by the British).
VOL. 41: 3 DECEMBER, 1927 - 1 MAY, 1928 247

Similarly do I hold that, if India has no faith in non-violence, nor patience for it to work its way, then it is better for her to attain her freedom from the present misrule even by violence than that she should helplessly submit to a continuing rape of her belongings and her honour.

Q. Should or should not those who have committed murder, rape, arson and other heinous crimes receive appropriate punishment? If you think they should, how will you advise the Government of Bihar?

A. Of course, those responsible for devilish deeds must be
punished. The Government of Bihar has not abjured the principle of
punishment. There is no such government anywhere in the world
today. When such a government comes into being, I shall listen to
their argument. But a government which believes in the theory of
crime and punishment but does not punish the criminal has no right
to call itself a government.

269. DRAFT FORMULA1 (Submitted to Muslim League)
[April 10, 1947]
10. Forcible conversion, rape, abduction, arson and loot culminating
in murders of men, women and children by Muslims should
stop.



Om Namah Shivaya

[devotee]

Thanks for the excerpts, Atanu ! This bursts the malicious myth being spread here against Gandhi ji.

And those who are writing long posts on atrocities on Sikhs & massacre of Hindus & blindly blaming Gandhi, may please quote Gandhi where he has asked Muslims to kill Hindus/Sikhs & rape Hindu women. The things are being imagined, dubious sources are being quoted ... he is being blamed even for partition !

Thanks everybody.

Peace, Peace, Peace !

OM

[Harjas Kaur]

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20090408/00221917f7600b4695622e.jpg
Sikh resentments toward insensitivity of Congress Party by nominating Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar long accused of instigating anti-Sikh Delhi riots in 1984 in which thousands were killed.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2651/3917820890_5e4ea1bc0a.jpg
Gandhi VS Jinnah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4Kibr2LzNE

What a legacy, Partition and Pakistan. Utter failure of nonviolence as a political paradigm. Without even wanting to disrespect Mohandas Gandhi and the bright and noble intentions of his vision and of Congress party, the truth is so far removed from the polished image that to continue reliance and blind faith in such impractical philosophy in political context will only bring more and greater catastrophe.

[Harjas Kaur]

117. LETTER TO SHARDA C. SHAH
September 19, 1932
CHI. BABUDI (SHARDA),
What fine questions you have asked! One who is determined to die can always end her life by biting off her tongue, by pressing the hands tightly against her throat and, if she has been bound, by breaking her bones trying to loosen herself. And a very holy woman can end her life even by a sheer act of will. This will, no doubt, be suicide but in certain circumstances suicide becomes one’s dharma. When a wicked man tries to rape a woman, suicide becomes necessary
if there is no other way of saving her honour.1I have no problem with this Dharmic injunction as a last resort. What I have a problem with is when civil war and partition is breaking out that first injunction to the populace as political leader and Father of a Nation is not, to put your hands around the throat of the ENEMY! But ONLY that faced with degradation, you should kill yourself. And hence this only proves what we've been saying all along, that Gandhi's moral dictates to Hindus and Sikhs has been SUICIDAL.

And so he is committing murder by negligent political strategems of extreme and absolute nonviolence in which the only violence morally permitted is that used against yourself, either by act or by act of another. Because Gandhi's extreme principles of ahimsa don't allow for fighting back and self-defense. Had Gandhi trained a proper Army instead of self-destructive satyagrahis, would Jinnah have been allowed to intimidate the Congress Party and win the battle of wills? You see, this is where speculation that had Subash Chandra Bose not died, the proper political leadership would have been in the picture to fend off threats of Islamic Jihad and to have effectively protected the populace from rioting Muslim mobs. Partition need not have happened.

[Harjas Kaur]

And those who are writing long posts on atrocities on Sikhs & massacre of Hindus & blindly blaming Gandhi, may please quote Gandhi where he has asked Muslims to kill Hindus/Sikhs & rape Hindu women. The things are being imagined, dubious sources are being quoted ... he is being blamed even for partition ! Did Gandhi anywhere preach self-defense? OR was everything nonviolent self-sacrifice? Is this a myth? In conditions of war, people are slaughtered who do not resist or are incapable of fighting back. This is imagined? How is it that Gandhi gets reputation as being Father of the Independence Movement. However, Pakistan just "kind of happened" and as guiding moral force of the Nation, he is NOT responsible for allowing, acceding to, and manipulating the public to accept Partition?

Entire Indian leadership was responsible. And primary responsibility lies in the fact they were so profoundly influenced by philosophy of non-violence, which is tantamount to surrender. Give me a break if you think he was some sadhu sitting indifferently on the side-lines with all those manipulative political fasts to appease the Muslim league. And his final fast? It wasn't undertaken to compel Congress to agree to settlement of 550 million rupees to Pakistan for Partition settlement?

Everything is "untrue?"

[kd gupta]

Lunacy is world wide and it is merely for money .

I find the important message to communicate...


॥सर्व धर्मान् परित्यज्य।
।माम् एकम् शरणम् व्रज।
।अहम् त्वाम् सर्व पापेभ्यो।
॥मोक्षयिष्यामि मा शुच॥
-Sri Krishna (BG | 18.66)

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Harjas Kaur


Yeah, like you all say, I'm demonic, I'm the hateful enemy. Whatever. Enjoy your jihadi Muslim and atheist Chinni bhai bhais.

I for one do not think you are demonic, i may not agree everything you write but your heart is right and the love for Bharat mata is evident.

I am appalled at Atanu ji, to deliberately flaming you.

Ghandhi ji commands a lot of respect amongst a lot of people, but he did make mistakes not in his ideals of Ahimsa but ignoring the other equal important component of Dhrarma, like kshtriya Dharma. To submit one self to Adharma or injustice is a crime.

Ghandhi ji was a Jain and so ahimsa to extreme is may be his Dharma but does Hindu Shastra teaches us, that the answer to all our problems is Ahimsa? No, neither is Advaita one fit answer to all situation.
Krishna says;
tasmad uttistha kaunteya
yuddhaya krta-niscayah

Therefore get up and fight with determination.



Commenting on Srimad Bhagavatam verse 1-7-16
Sri Sridhar Swami says:

" DharmaShAstra says:

agnido garadashchaiva
shastrapANir dhanApahH
kshetradArA haraischava
shhadete hi AtatAyinah

an arsonist,
one give poison to other,
one who attacks with weapon on another who has no weapon, one who steals another's money,
one who illegally possesses another's land, and
one who kidnaps another's wife;

these six are AtatAyis."


They must be dealt with, sama, dama, bheda, danda etc.
appeal to reason and rationale, offerings or inducement, diplomacy and finally punishment if everything else fails.

For Ghandhi ji to just insist on Ahimsa was a disaster, as we are still paying a huge price for it.

I see a lot of Dhitrastra like mentality ignoring the truth, that needs to be addressed, hiding behind Ahimsa or Advaita is no answer.

Jai Shree Krishna

[saidevo]

namaste GaneshprasAd ji.

Yes, I totally forgot that Gandhi was a Jain: the halo of mahAtma hid the Mohandas Karamchand in his name. As you say, that explains his total commitment to ahimasa.

Even from a casual reading of some of the contents of his Collected Works, I can understand that Gandhi was always faced with the practicality of political and public life that mocked at his expectation and desire of implementing his ideals. He made many sacrifices to accommodate the whims and lifestyles of his wealthy political colleagues. He could do nothing about the belligerent attitudes of many of his Muslim colleagues and had to ultimately submit to their demands. And what was wrong with him IMO was his stubborn refusal to sanction the kShatriya dharma of the Hindus even in situations that demanded it, despite his scholarship in the Bhagavad Gita. As Harjas Kaur ji wrote, Gandhi had the power to assemble an Indian Army; and by joining hands with SC Bose, could have driven the British out and controlled the Muslims much earlier than 1947. After all the British Indian Army comprised only of Indian sepoys who would have readily supported Gandhi.

Although the situation very well demanded it, Gandhi stubbornly stuck to his principles of non-violence and passive submission, even though, ironically as it has been pointed out here, that resulted in Hindus and other Indians dying in thousands. It seems to me that he was conscious of his local international public image at the expense of letting his followers in the public sacrifice their lives for the sake of his ideals.

When Pakistan was formed, his Hindu colleagues wanted to have the name Hindustan for India, but Gandhi stoutly opposed it! His contention was that the independent India comprised not only of Hindus but of Muslims, Sikhs, Jains, Christians and people of other religions, so the name that Nehru suggested--Union of Indian Republic--must be the name of the independent country, or else the nation will be divided into religious pockets--that was what Jinnah had been teasing Gandhi about, and Gandhi would not let it happen. The point is, although Gandhi had the power to convince the remaining Muslim and other leaders of the minority religions for peaceful coexistence as a family with the majority Hindu public, he blindly sought to implement his own ideals and the British legacy sought by Nehru; thus, even after India got independence, Gandhi did not let the Hindus rule themselves under the sovereignty the Hindu dharma; I would even say that in this respect Gandhi betrayed the hopes of millions of Hindus and their patriotic leaders.

By the bye, I too thought that Atanu was going overboard, like Gandhi, with his expectations and insistence of only ideals, and pronouncing every other view as generating hatred, immature and harmful.

[atanu]

namaste GaneshprasAd ji.

Yes, I totally forgot that Gandhi was a Jain:

Namaste saidevo ji,

First Gandhi Ji was no a jain. In your cited reference, you can read his correspondence with Jain adherents and see the differences.

Please.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Pranam Harjas Kaur

I for one do not think you are demonic, i may not agree everything you write but your heart is right and the love for Bharat mata is evident.

I am appalled at Atanu ji, to deliberately flaming you.



Namaste Ganeshprasad ji,

I am really sad to find you appalled. And it surely is my fault.

But Gandhi Ji never said "Cooperate with Muslim rapists" -- a statement which was being attributed to him. I just pointed it out.

If some one acsribes some wrong statement to you, I will again oppose, whether you remain appalled or not.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

[devotee]

First Gandhi Ji was no a jain. In your cited reference, you can read his correspondence with Jain adherents and see the differences.


Yes, Gandhi ji was not a jain. He was a Hindu, Bania (some say "Modh") by caste. But there were some in his ancestors who came from jainism. At that time, Jainism was not considered a different religion from Hinduism. As per info available with me, his grandmother was from a Jain family.

OM

[chandu_69]

It is curious. You are not able to show the statement ascribed to Gandhi from "Freedom at Midnight" and yet -----.



But Gandhi Ji never said "Cooperate with Muslim rapists" -- a statement which was being attributed to him. I just pointed it out.

I posted it several times.The edition is an expanded version.The earlier version which was an abridged version and published in the year 1975 doesnt contain many quotes of Gandhi.


and yet -----.

The quote appeared at page 479 of the 1997 publication of Vikas.

[atanu]

[/font][/color]

I posted it several times.The edition is an expanded version.The earlier version which was an abridged version and published in the year 1975 doesnt contain many quotes of Gandhi.

The quote appeared at page 479 of the 1997 publication of Vikas.

Namaste chandu,

This is my last post so I must say that if Gandhi ji ever said or meant "Cooperate with Muslim rapists", then indeed he would be a lunatic.

He actually said that "Death is preferable". He has also exonerated other victimised women of any blame (not related to Hindu-Muslim riots) who had to suffer due to unequal physical strength. I see a humanist and not a demon, as is being made out.

But you must show us the full scanned page of what you claim. I have a more than 700 page version, wherein no such utterance has been found by me. Moreover, it is not there in the 'Complete Works', link to which has been provided by saidevo ji.

Moreover, is a novel a proof?

Om Namah Shivaya

[saidevo]

namaste Atanu.

It's more a question of how far Gandhi was influenced by Jainism (and other religions) vis-a-vis the tenets of Hinduism, than if he was a Jain.

• His father Karamchand Gandhi (aka Kaba Gandhi) belonged to the Modh community, which was predominantly a Hindu community comprising Brahmins and Banias, originally centered at Modhera in Patan District and worshipped Modheshwari Maa (also known as Matangi Maa), a form of Amba Maa with eighteen hands. As worshippers of Amba Maa, they were Vaishnavas.

• But then from this Modh community sprang the sect of Modh Jains. Under Becharji Swami, originally a Hindu Modh Bania who became a Jain monk, Gandhi took his famous three oaths (not to touch wine, women or meat) at the insistence of his mother, when he went to study in England. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modh)

• In his Autobiography, Gandhi says: "In Rajkot, however, I got an early grounding in toleration for all branches of Hinduism and sister religions. For my father and mother would visit the Haveli as also Shiva's and Rama's temples, and would take or send us youngsters there. Jain monks also would pay frequent visits to my father, and would even go out of their way to accept food from us non-Jains. They would have talks with my father on subjects religious and mundane."

• Gandhi's preference for religious pluralism and confluence and his insistence/obsession of its implementation when India got independence belied the legitimate ambitions of millions of Hindus who were in dreams of a Hindustan ruled by Hindu Dharma. The origins of such a preference is well enunciated by Bhikku Parekh in his paper, which is part of the 'Oxford Past Masters' Series, titled "Gandhi Contra Modernity". The reviewer of this paper, Michael J. Quirk says:



Gandhi's limitations are displayed most clearly in Parekh's account of his religious thinking. The religious environment of Gandhi's childhood was, as Parekh puts it, "eclectic:" his mother was associated with the syncretistic Pranami sect of Hinduism, which venerated the Koran as a holy book along with Vedantic scripture, and his father, a chief administrator of the court of Porbandar, freely associated with Jains and Christians. This cosmopolitan religious background inclined Gandhi toward a position that contemporary theologians have dubbed "religious pluralism" -- the conviction that all religions are valid paths toward transcendence and the holy, differing only in the vocabulary in which the sacred order is described and the perspective from which it is appropriated.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Gandhi+Contra+Modernity-a074992672
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2096/is_1_51/ai_74992672/


Given the situation that exists in India today, many if not most Hindus can't help thinking and regretting that it was all because of Gandhi and his obserssion with his principles of ahimsa and sarva-dharma-sama-bhAva that he insisted and forced on the throats of Hindus, even after his other politico-religious colleagues rejected and flouted those principles with impunity.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Atanu ji




I am really sad to find you appalled. And it surely is my fault.

Om Namah Shivaya


I was not appalled on your defence of Gandhi ji, but to your own near admittance to flaming, our bhen ji, h k.
My use of the word appalled, may be was a bit strong, let say I was more surprised.
　


But Gandhi Ji never said "Cooperate with Muslim rapists" -- a statement which was being attributed to him. I just pointed it out.
If some one ascribes some wrong statement to you, I will again oppose, whether you remain appalled or not.
　
I loud your effort on those grounds, I would not expect any less from you, I my self would give benefit of doubt to Gandhi ji unless some one can prove without ambiguity that he did say those words on record,
that said it is blatantly obvious he did bend over backwards to appease the Muslims for that there is no defence.

Jai Shree Krishna

[chandu_69]

Page 479 of FREEDOM AT MIDNIGHT

His advice to girls menaced with rape in the punjab had been to
bite their tongue and hold their breath until they died.

Page image

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?0661433d3d.jpg

[saidevo]

I am stunned! Amazing are Gandhi's teaching about the ways of committing suicide. (Also check post #148).

Yes, this exact quote is found in the 1975 edition of the crumbling book I have, albeit at page no.381, and although it differs slightly from the quote in the Internet. The authors also give the sources of their quotes in the Notes section of the book. I am sure Atanu would also find it in his 700-pages version. By the bye, I wonder what was added to the revised editions to cover so many extra pages.

It is painful to think on Atanu's lines: as to what karma did BhArat accumulate in the Kali Yuga which is hardly 5000 years old, to warrant so much of Ishvara's punishment, meting out destruction, death, rape and ignominy which continues unabated to this day!


Page 479 of FREEDOM AT MIDNIGHT

His advice to girls menaced with rape in the punjab had been to
bite their tongue and hold their breath until they died.

Page image

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?0661433d3d.jpg

[devotee]

I agree with Atanu. Dominic Lapierre and Larry Collins were never considered authoritative on Mahatma Gandhi, so there may be some erroneous depiction in their book initially & which might have been removed after it was noticed.

We have to believe who are/were Gandhi-experts & not just everyone. It is our everyday experience when biases of the writer twists the whole meaning or even text spoken by great personalities.

If Gandhi ji did say these words, he wouldn't have gone back on his words ... i.e. he must have repeated similar sentiments again & again, a pattern which we don't find ... he was a very firm believer in his ideas. We can't believe that he just uttered this only once for Mr Dominic & Larry & except those fellows, it was simply forgotten by everyone including Mahatma Gandhi himself !

OM

[saidevo]

We have more information here from the Collected Works, vol.92, p.355:

516. SPEECH AT PRAYER MEETING3
NEW DELHI, October 18, 1946

Gandhiji advised the women in East Bengal to commit suicide by poison or some other means to avoid dishonour. . . . Yesterday he told the women to suffocate themselves or to bite their tongues to end their lives. But two doctors, B. C. Roy of Calcutta and Sushila Nayyar, had informed him that such means of suicide were impossible. The only way known to medicine for instant self-immolation was a strong dose of poison. If this was so, he, the speaker, would advise everyone running the risk of dishonour to take poison before submission to dishonour. He had, however, heard from those given to yogic practices that it was possible by some yogic practice to end life. He would try to inquire. His was not an idle idea. He meant all he had said. --The Hindustan Times, 19-10-1946

The point is whether Gandhi did advise the same course of action for the Muslim women against anyone who sought to violate her honour and modesty. And whatever Hindu scripture Gandhi took this idea?! By his own admission in his Autobiography, Gandhi seems to be familiar with only the Bhagavat Gita and Patanjali's Yoga Sutras.

[atanu]

Om


I am stunned! Amazing are Gandhi's teaching about the ways of committing suicide. (Also check post #148).

Yes, this exact quote is found in the 1975 edition of the crumbling book I have, albeit at page no.381, and although it differs slightly (?) from the quote in the Internet. The authors also give the sources of their quotes in the Notes section of the book. I am sure Atanu would also find it in his 700-pages version. By the bye, I wonder what was added to the revised editions to cover so many extra pages.

Namaste saidevo ji,

Slightly?

I am more stunned. Following is what sh. chandu claimed first and several times thereafter:



from chandu

Gandhi advised them that if a Muslim expressed his desire to rape a Hindu or a Sikh lady, she should never refuse him but cooperate with him. She should lie down like a dead with her tongue in between her teeth. Thus the rapist Muslim will be satisfied soon and sooner he leave her. (D Lapierre and L Collins, Freedom at Midnight, Vikas, 1997, p-479).

This was the basis of much of this apparent acrimonious discussion, where in the name of promoting hinduism, we strived to tear to shreds an illustrious hindu.

But now as proof he shows a page, which claims (as per Lapierre and Larry Collins and which I have to check out) as:



from chandu
Page 479 of FREEDOM AT MIDNIGHT
His advice to girls menaced with rape in the punjab had been to
bite their tongue and hold their breath until they died.

Can anyone see the difference?

Also, I will check back as to what is the context of the Chapter "Let Gandhi Die" wherein the quote appears.

But below is exact reproduction of what Gandhi ji said from Gandhi Ji's letters (from the link of Shri Saidevo):


117. LETTER TO SHARDA C. SHAH
September 19, 1932
CHI. BABUDI (SHARDA),
What fine questions you have asked! One who is determined to die can always end her life by biting off her tongue, by pressing the hands tightly against her throat and, if she has been bound, by breaking her bones trying to loosen herself. And a very holy woman can end her life even by a sheer act of will. This will, no doubt, be suicide but in certain circumstances suicide becomes one’s dharma. When a wicked man tries to rape a woman, suicide becomes necessary if there is no other way of saving her honour.1

Please note that the letter is dated September 19, 1932 and thus has no relevance to partition.

Relevant to partition are the following:


1. TALK TO RELIEF WORKERS1
CHANDPUR,
November 7, 1946
There is nothing courageous in thousands of Mussalmans killing out a handful of Hindus in their midst, but that the Hindus should have degraded themselves by such cowardice, i.e., being witness to abduction and rape, forcible conversion and forcible marriage of their womenfolk, is heartrending.
--------------
The whole thing is so ghastly. You do not need to exaggerate it. I have told the authorities I do not care for numbers. Has a single case of abduction, rape, forcible marriage, or forcible conversion occurred? If so, it is enough for me. It is admitted that such things have happened.

Q. Should or should not those who have committed murder, rape, arson and other heinous crimes receive appropriate punishment? If you think they should, how will you advise the Government of Bihar?

A. Of course, those responsible for devilish deeds must be
punished. The Government of Bihar has not abjured the principle of
punishment. There is no such government anywhere in the world
today. When such a government comes into being, I shall listen to
their argument. But a government which believes in the theory of
crime and punishment but does not punish the criminal has no right
to call itself a government.

269. DRAFT FORMULA1 (Submitted to Muslim League)
[April 10, 1947]
10. Forcible conversion, rape, abduction, arson and loot culminating
in murders of men, women and children by Muslims should
stop.


Judge for yourself. Horrific to me is the fact that based on some observation in a novel and without relating to context, a person will be disparaged so savagely. The context does not relate to partition at all. The letter is of 1932.


It is painful to think on Atanu's lines: as to what karma did BhArat accumulate in the Kali Yuga which is hardly 5000 years old, to warrant so much of Ishvara's punishment, meting out destruction, death, rape and ignominy which continues unabated to this day!

You know that the perception of the Vaisvanara Universe is very individualistic -- each to his own. Sons of Diti have a lot of wealth but being liars and bent upon mischief they are covered with darkness and eventually perish. (I hope you will take this as sanatana imperishable truth of Hinduism).

Sons of Aditi, on the other hand, abide by truth, are poor but are contented because they see the whole as one. They emerge victorious.
------------------------------

Before going out, let me cite the basic tenet of Vedas-Hinduism, for all those who wish to abide by the Truth. Others may please ignore this:



Satapatha Brahmana Part IV (SBE43), Julius Eggeling tr. [1897]
FIFTH ADHYÂYA. FIRST BRÂHMANA.

9:5:1:12 Now, then, the discussion of the Samishtayagus (oblations): The gods and the Asuras, both of them sprung from Pragâpati, entered upon their father Pragâpati's inheritance, to wit, speech--truth and untruth, both truth and untruth: they, both of them, spake the truth, and they both spake untruth; and, indeed, speaking alike, they were alike.

9:5:1:13 The gods relinquished untruth, and held fast to truth, and the Asuras relinquished truth, and held fast to untruth.

9:5:1:14 The truth which was in the Asuras beheld this, and said, 'Verily, the gods have relinquished untruth, and held fast to truth: well, then, I will go thither!' Thus it went over to the gods.

9:5:1:15 And the untruth which was in the gods beheld this, and said, 'Verily, the Asuras have relinquished truth, and held fast to untruth: well, then, I will go thither!' Thus it went over to the Asuras.

9:5:1:16 The gods spake nothing but truth, and the Asuras nothing but untruth. And the gods, speaking the truth diligently, were very contemptible, and very poor: whence he who speaks the truth diligently, becomes indeed very contemptible, and very poor; but in the end he assuredly prospers, for the gods indeed prospered.

9:5:1:17 And the Asuras, speaking untruth diligently, throve even as salt soil , and were very prosperous: whence he who speaks untruth diligently, thrives indeed, even as salt soil, and becomes very prosperous; but in the end he assuredly comes to naught, for the Asuras indeed came to naught.

-----------------------------
What separates Suras and the Asuras is nothing but the mode of speech -- abidance to Truth or to Untruth, respectively. I personally have a very big untruth binding me. Let me strive to overcome it.

With a joyful heart and thanks to all, I bid adieu to HDF. HDF has been a very useful and almost the main profession during the last 2 and half years. I have learnt a lot from all. The chapter is closed for me now.

I had commited to MahaHrada that if any independent HDF member finds that my post/s harbour ill then i will go out.

Regards for all friends and Best Wishes. Special thanks to Ganeshprasad ji and saidevo ji. And not to forget satay.

Om Namah Shivaya
Om Namah Shivaya

[devotee]

Namaste Saidevo ji,



The point is whether Gandhi did advise the same course of action for the Muslim women against anyone who sought to violate her honour and modesty. And whatever Hindu scripture Gandhi took this idea?! By his own admission in his Autobiography, Gandhi seems to be familiar with only the Bhagavat Gita and Patanjali's Yoga Sutras.

With your coming on the scene, I am sure we can proceed without biases against Gandhi ji. :)

Now, answer to your above post :

Did Gandhi ji say that it was applicable only when a Hindu woman's honour is violated & is not applicable otherwise ? I think we are reading too much between the lines & thus are not fair to Gandhi.

It is also said in one place that why he didn't ask us to prepare in self-defence against atrocities of Muslims. Now, this question is like, why Rose is not Jasmine ? Gandhi was Gandhi ... & he did his role beautifully as Gandhi, a hard-core believer in Ahimsa. He was not SArvarkar or Keshav Hedgewar. He is being charged for prtition too here. The reality is that he kept repeating that Partition or no-partition was an internal political matter between the Hindus & Muslims of India & we would sort it out once the English left. He also advised Nehru to allow Jinnah to be PM, if that stopped partition. However, by that time, after indendence, Gandhi ji's utility was over & no one listened to him.

If Gandhi ji would have asked people to be ready in self defence, aagainst Muslims, as has been suggested, how could he garner the support of majority of Muslims which was necessary to keep India intact as a Nation ? Let's not forget that Jinnah's two nation theory failed miserably when in General Election, his Muslim candidates were defeated even in areas where Muslims were in majority ! How was that possible if Gandhi was biased towards one community ?

Somewhere in this thread it has been also suggested that the independence was due to INA & not because of Gandhi's efforts ! Nothing can be far from Truth ! Aitlee has been quoted to support this view. Can we believe Aitlee ... the great India basher who believed that India can't survive if British left India ? How could he have digested the fact that he was defeated by such a seemingly harmless person ? Everyone knows that though Subhash did a great job in raising INA, its influence on British India was almost Nil. Moreover, the failed armed revolt of 1857, the failure of efforts of armed revolutionists like Azad, SAvarkar, Bhagat Singh, Bismil etc. towards their aim to wrest Independence by armed struggle had proved that in the given circumstances, it was nearly impossible to defeat English with armed struggle. What could a few armed people with no public support with very little financial means could do ? The reason was that it didn't have support of the masses. What needed at that time was an organised mass revolt against the British & which was made possible only by Gandhi's way. It was only Gandhi who ruled over the entire population of India cutting across all barriers of religions, regions & castes.

Let's not forget, that Bhagat Singh & his other friends who always believed in armed struggle against the British, had to resort to peaceful means finally when they threw only smoke bombs in the parliament & courted arrest to draw the attention of the whole Nation. Why did they do so ? Because they realised from their own past failures that they must have the backing of the masses & without that independence was not possible by handful of young people taking arms against the British.

OM

[vcindiana]

Dear Fellow forum Readers: For many it is very illogical and difficult to understand that Dharma is established by Love alone. No sword or nuclear weapon can match the power of love. I do not think Gandhi hated any one including British. Martin Luther King Jr. in USA studied Gandhi’s tactics and he did put that into practice. Many blacks at that time abandoned MLK over the issue of nonviolence and drifted towards “black power” rhetoric. After you have been hit on the head with a policeman’s night stick for the dozenth time and received yet another jolt from a jailor’s cattle prod, you begin to question the effectiveness of non violence. But King never wavered. As riots broke out in LA, Chicago and Harlem King travelled from city to city trying to cool tempers, forcefully reminding the demonstrators that the moral change is not accomplished through immoral means. Against all odds and against all instincts of self preservation he stayed to true to the principle. Where others called revenge he called for love. The civil rights marchers put their bodies on the line before sheriffs with night sticks and fire hoses and snarling German shepherds. King stayed faithful just like Gandhi by offering his body as target but never as a weapon and he broke through the enemies moral calluses. The real goal, King used to say was not to defeat the white man but to awaken a sense of shame within the oppressor and challenge his false sense of superiority. The end is reconciliation, he end is redemption and the end is the creation of the beloved community. King like Gandhi died as a martyr.

Because of the principle of nonviolence started by Gandhi in India and this permeated to US, Indian immigrants in West do need to know this significance in their lives with the white people. I know time has changed and many people do understand better. I do encourage them to visit ML king’s museum in Memphis in Tennessee. The museum also displays Gandhi’s messages and his fight against British.

The principle of nonviolent protest demanding justice also spread to Philippines, Poland, Hungary, and Czech. Romania Mongolia, Albania, Chili South Africa and billions of people threw off the yoke of oppression through non violent means.

It is amazing a thin brown skinned man wrapped in handmade white linen made such a difference in this world and it is hard for me to think this man indeed walked on this earth not too long ago.


Dear Atanu and Devotee ..... Please do not get disheartened by other people remarks.

Love VC

[saidevo]

namaste Atanu and Devotee.

The main contentions of the opposers of Gandhi here (that includes me) are that:

• "it is blatantly obvious he did bend over backwards to appease the Muslims"--as Ganeshprasad has succinctly stated.

• His view that a Hindu woman's best choice was to commit suicide by whatever means possible to safeguard her honour when some wicked person tries to violate her modesty is questionable (at least to me).

• His obsession with the principles of nonviolence and passive submission cost more lives than it saved.

In trying to establish these contentions, it is natural that we quote from the first obvious source, the Internet; and when some such quote is proved to be dubious or questionable, we try to seek more authentic information from Gandhi's own writings and writings on him by reliable people and in reliable sources. The purpose of the opposers is not to malign the MahAtma, but only have a critical study about the man, his policies and their aftereffects.

I can't understand why the Gandhi supporters or the Gandhi neutralists here should create so much ruckus, hanging to the now-proved-wrong quote that the Hindu women should suffer the Muslim rapist passively. Everyone knows that the historical novels of Collins and Lapiere are written after thorough research, so no use in denying their authority.

Gandhi's quote about violated women committing suicide by biting their tongue that Atanu has pointed out is dated 19 Sep 1932 (post #171). The quote I have given from his Collected Works is a very similar quote of what he said in a prayer meeting (presumably of Hindus) is dated 18 Oct 1946 (post #170)--after the Calcutta Hindu-Muslim riots.

Although the quote from the book of C&L is similar to this quote (minus the malicious Muslim rapist parts of what circulates on the Net), I don't know how a quote that advised the women of East Bengal is mentioned by C&L as an advise to the women of Punjab. The answer possibly lies in the sources C&L attribute to the chapter and in toto to their book, because I don't think the authors would have given it just for sensation in a serious historical novel that essentially praises Gandhi.

In the circumstances, I feel that the Gandhi supporters and neutralists should explore the three points of contentions that we opposers have, instead of harping on small mistakes in the quotes given by us. They should explore:

• whether Gandhi did not 'bend backwards' to appease Muslims;

• whether Gandhi's ideas of suicide as the best recourse for women violated has the backing of Hindu or Jain scriptures, or is it just his own idea, and if it is just his idea, whether it was right even during his time.

• why was Gandhi be obsessed with his policies of nonviolence and passive submission, although he found it losing support and causing the loss of more and more lives.



...the failure of efforts of armed revolutionists like Azad, SAvarkar, Bhagat Singh, Bismil etc. towards their aim to wrest Independence by armed struggle had proved that in the given circumstances, it was nearly impossible to defeat English with armed struggle. What could a few armed people with no public support with very little financial means could do ? The reason was that it didn't have support of the masses. What needed at that time was an organised mass revolt against the British & which was made possible only by Gandhi's way. It was only Gandhi who ruled over the entire population of India cutting across all barriers of religions, regions & castes.


Devotee, don't try to belittle the research work of N.S.Rajaram, a renowned Indologist, just to eulogize Gandhi. The article "Who Brought Freedom, Gandhi or Netaji?" that I quoted earlier in this thread, is from a responsible Hindu Website: http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/8046.html. It says,



And this is how my gracious host in Penang and his friends, men who had seen it at first hand, remember it. As they saw it, the massive defeat destroyed the British morale. It was the specter of the whole nightmare being reenacted in India, with nearly three million Indian soldiers just returned from war, which made the British leave India. “They ran away,” the old soldier kept telling me repeatedly.

I may point out that this is also the view of many Indians who saw action in the war— both in the Indian Army and those who fought in Subhas Bose’s INA. Indian soldiers saw that their British officers were frightened to death of the Japanese, while they themselves were prepared to fight them.


With 3 million solidiers at his command, had Gandhi utilized their services in his fight against the British, the same services would also have prevented the later Hindu-Muslim riots, and even if the Partition took place and Pakistan was formed, would have created a unified Hindu Nation, ruled by a more competent leader than Nehru.

[Harjas Kaur]

The principle of nonviolent protest demanding justice also spread to Philippines, Poland, Hungary, and Czech. Romania Mongolia, Albania, Chili South Africa and billions of people threw off the yoke of oppression through non violent means. Oh really? :cool1:

And it was Gandhi principles of nonviolence which achieved all this? Can you please prove this with links and not just assumptions. Thank you. Perhaps there are "other" political factors which are being ignored in the analysis. Blind praise for "success of Gandhi principles," rather than unwillingness and incapability of the opposing power to maintain control seem more likely. I doubt "moral shame" at not keeping Dharmic principles was a conscientious factor which didn't seem formerly to bother them.

If billions could be freed by principles of justice, would this even be considered Kali Yuga?

ਕਲਿ ਕਾਤੀ ਰਾਜੇ ਕਾਸਾਈ ਧਰਮੁ ਪੰਖ ਕਰਿ ਉਡਰਿਆ ॥
kal kaathee raajae kaasaaee dhharam pankh kar ouddariaa ||
The Dark Age of Kali Yuga is the knife, and the kings are butchers; righteousness has sprouted wings and flown away.

ਕੂੜੁ ਅਮਾਵਸ ਸਚੁ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਮਾ ਦੀਸੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹ ਚੜਿਆ ॥
koorr amaavas sach chandhramaa dheesai naahee keh charriaa ||
In this dark night of falsehood, the moon of Truth is not visible anywhere.
~SGGS Ji ang 145

[saidevo]

namaste Atanu, GP.

sArabhanga quit feeling emotional about some differences of opinion in the 'Extrapolating Christianity' thread. I feel Atanu, who has, I think, the largest number of posts to his credit here in HDF indicating his widespread participation, is doing the same.

If people who have a fair amount of familiarity with Hindu shAstras like you two quit, it would be--IMHO--betraying Satay, who has allowed us so much freedom and built the HDF on the collective knowledge of all of us.

Most knowledgeable members here are only occasional posters, preferring to remain silent about their knowledge and watching the other less knowledgeable posters build their learning on personal opinions. Atanu and Yajvan have been very consistent and helpful and GP has given his wisdom when needed. Devotee and EM have been sincere and prompt in dispensing their wisdom. Now we have people like Brahman and amra, and sincere seekers like Spiritualseeker. Most of the new entrants here in HDF have joined in anticipation of learning and getting their points cleared; many of them are quite knowledgeable, judging by their Rep.points vis-a-vis their number of posts. There are other senior and junior members who are quite knowledgeable, whom I have not been able to name readily.

The moment eriko called me and Yajvan and EM 'uncle', she changed HDF into an institution of 'vasudeva kuTumbakam'--world family, of friends and relatives! If it is a family, there is bound to be quarrels, but in family quarrels no one has anything personal against another that is nourished in the hearts.

In this scenario, I feel it is the duty of senior members to stick on, learn and educate one another in the true spirit of 'sahana vavatu'.

[Harjas Kaur]

Sikhs are a brave community. But their number is small. If the Punjab is divided Sikhs must be divided too. The letter says that the Sikhs who have now come over to East Punjab will be all right. But what will happen to the Sikhs in West Punjab, he asks. Will the Congress help if they find themselves in trouble? I can only say that those who are brave do not need anyone’s help. They should only look to God for help. And why must you assume that the Sikhs in West Punjab will find themselves in trouble?If something happens to them, do you imagine that the vast masses of people in India will look on indifferently and do nothing? The Sikhs therefore should not worry. The Bill that has been introduced in the British Parliament will very soon be enacted into law. India will then be divided into two Dominions. ~Prarthana Pravachan–I, pp. 220–4 VOL. 95 : 30 APRIL, 1947 - 6 JULY 1947 http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL095.PDF
I have been calling upon Hindus to help Muslims in every possible way, by cleaning their houses, streets, and removing the debris. I am going to make the same appeal to Hindu Congressmen and representatives of villages today. [ From Urdu ] ~Gandhijike Dukhe Dilki Pukar—II, pp. 24-5 http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL094.PDF
I have been told that the Hindus have also suffered in the riots at some places. If there are any such Hindus, they too will be given relief. But I pay more attention to Muslims because there are quite a few of them here who are willing to help the Hindus. ~Gandhijike Dukhe Dilki Pukar—II, pp. 29-32 http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL094.PDF

A scheme is being prepared to rehabilitate the Muslims who have suffered at our hands. Every Hindu brother and sister should go to villages and put in hard labour, not for the sake of wages but in a spirit of service. We should clean up Muslim villages and rebuild their houses to convince them that once again we have become their brothers although for a time we had gone berserk. ~Gandhijike Dukhe Dilki Pukar—II, pp. 35-7, and Harijan, 6-4-1947 http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL094.PDF
The friend from Noakhali has informed me that after my return from Noakhali the situation there has deteriorated again. I told him that if the Hindus in Bihar co-operated with me, I could work for Noakhali while I was still here. I would appeal to the Muslims of Noakhali, if my voice could reach them, to live in unity with Hindus, wherever they may be. Hindus should do likewise. I do not know what will happen in Noakhali in future—whether the surviving Hindus will be killed, their houses looted or burnt. VOL. 94: 17 FEBRUARY, 1947 - 29 APRIL, 1947 187 http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL094.PDF
This is supposed to be our Bapu?

[satay]

Admin Note

Please report any posts that are personal attacks.

I think this thread has gone out of control but I believe the discussion will work itself out since it is among senior members who know the HDF rules and have good intentions at heart.

May I request all members (advaitin or not) to check their ego at the door.

Thanks,

[Harjas Kaur]

What separates Suras and the Asuras is nothing but the mode of speech -- abidance to Truth or to Untruth, respectively. I personally have a very big untruth binding me. Let me strive to overcome it.Again, everything is in a context. This should not be applied to silence sincere opposition in a debate with judgment of who are "asuras." There is so much evidence which Gandhi opposers have articulated that to ignore in attempt to clarify a misquote is the error here. The quote is inflammatory. But it's not entirely without a basis in fact in other quotes which can be proved to be attributed to Gandhi teachings.


It is not my wish to argue on political matters. If I have argued with you it is just to point out again and again that women have the responsibilty of preserving and protecting the God's Universe.

Please take your time. I have a request. Please wash away the hurts. Accumulated sense of hurt influences how we see things. For example a Naxalite harbors a lot of mis-givings about injustice to him and his poor folks. Similarly, an extreme rightist thinks that it is his right to kill others or nuke other contries. But not equipped with the knowledge of Hinduism that "what you think you become", they do not know. A naxalite might have been a big industrialist and so forth.

Finally, no single man is responsible for anything. It kAla (Lord Time) who supervises and designs. No man or woman is demonic but temporarily negative thoughts may take control.
In this entire quote is a judgment of me personally. It is no discussion of the issues. It is no debate. I am accused as not having knowledge of Hinduism, of being overcome by negative "demonic" thoughts. And for what? Opposition to Gandhi?



75-77. 'By you this universe is borne, by you this world is created. By you it is protected, O Devi and you always consume it at the end. O you who are (always) of the form of the whole world, at the time of creation you are of the form of the creative force, at the time of sustentation you are of the form of the protective power, and at the time of the dissolution of the world, you are of the form of the destructive power. ~Devi Mahatmyam, Markandeya Purana chap.1 http://sdbbs.tripod.com/devi.html


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/Harjas/singhnee1.jpg
Sikh women are first and foremost soldiers. So you belie fundamental ignorance of Sikhi teaching trying to correct as wrong thinking and make those rich traditions conform to your own interpretations of pacifistic spirituality.

First, we haven't explored how Gandhi's Jain beliefs have overshadowed Hinduism and literally rejected as "asuric" and "wrong" and "immoral" traditional Kshatriya Dharm. So already, in what you have written above, you have negated my own concept of Dharma. And the error here is not who is wrong, who is right, but why you are so Abrahamically certain only your interpretation of Hinduism is correct?

An argument can certainly be made that Gandhi and the Indian media and government have "imposed" a particular interpretation of Hindu religion while literally "creating" an opposition party out of traditional Hindus and Kshatriya communities. And this is important because it goes to the crux of the issues.


I receive many letters every day attacking me. Some say I have destroyed the Hindus, some others that I have been appeasing the Muslims. They make no impression on me. I seek to appeal to no one except God, for we are all His creatures, His servants. And why should I allow myself to be annoyed by these letters? How have I offended?

I only say that no one can protect his religion by doing sinful things or by committing atrocities on others. This applies to Hindus and Muslims alike. That Pakistan is a bad thing, I agree. What is there to rejoice over it? Our country has been divided. What is there in it to celebrate? For the last sixty years, since I was a schoolboy, I have believed that all Indians, be they Hindus, Muslims, Parsis or Christians, are brothers. Now that our land has been divided, does it mean that we should divide our hearts? How can the people of a country become two peoples? India can have only one people. When I say this they abuse me. Shall I listen to them and become a murderer? By so doing I shall only be harming myself. One is one’s own foe as well as one’s own friend. Hindus alone can destroy the Hindus and no one else.

Today flames are raging everywhere. Hinduism will be saved only if we can save ourselves from these flames. My physical powers are waning. I am no longer strong enough to put with this heat. It is a permanent law that truth ever triumphs and falsehood perishes. What I say is not addressed to the feeble of heart but to those who are brave and unselfish, those who know how to die defending their mother, their daughter and their religion. The man who can die happily is more courageous than the man who kills. I want the whole of India to rise to this standard of valour.There is no denying the sincere conviction of the man. But any Kshatriya reading the above statement finds it just as inflammatory as comments about biting one's tongue to suicide during a rape. And not that suicide doesn't have a moral place in desperate circumstances to defend one's honor. But it is the promotion of suicide due to abhorrence and rejection of armed resistance which is contrary to Kshatriya Dharm.

Moreover it violates the injunction of the Shastras to raise the sword as last resort, and also same injunction given to Sikhs by 10th Guru Gobind Singh Ji. So equally, an argument can be made that Gandhi's strict interpretations of Ahimsa according to Jain Dharm, while good and right and beautiful and moral in their context become a SIN, MAHAPAAP when misapplied to whole of India and most especially when applied to Kshatriya Dharm. This is utter rejection of the caste-varna system. Society will fall into disorder if everybody is Kshatriya or everybody is a brahmin. And worse, if whole society is being manipulated to conform to some high ideal of a Jain whose only response is "suicide" in face of mortal enemies, then the entire Country will suicide to avoid the "sin" of it's own appropiate and equal defense.

(Continued)

[Harjas Kaur]

Jainism (pronounced /ˈdʒaɪnɪzəm/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English), also called Jain Dharma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma)') is an ancient dharmic religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmic_religion) from India that prescribes a path of non-violence for all forms of living beings in this world... There are five basic ethical principles (vows) prescribed... Ahimsa, "Non-violence", is sometimes interpreted as not killing, but the concept goes far beyond that. It includes not harming or insulting other living beings, either directly, or indirectly through others... To kill any person, no matter their crime, is considered unimaginably abhorrent. History suggests that various strains of Hinduism became vegetarian due to strong Jain influences...

Jains are usually very welcoming and friendly toward other faiths and often help with interfaith functions. Several non-Jain temples in India are administered by Jains. A palpable presence in Indian culture, Jains have contributed to Indian philosophy, art, architecture, science, and to Mohandas Gandhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi)'s politics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics), which led to the mainly non-violent movement for Indian independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%27s_independence_movement). Though Mohandas Gandhi states clearly in his Autobiography that his mother was a Vaishnav, Jain monks visited his home regularly. He spent considerable time under the tutelage of Jain monks, learning the philosophies of non-violence and doing good always. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JainismThis is Jain Dharm. Hindu Dharm accepts Jain Dharm within it, But doesn't REJECT Kshatriya Dharm. Jains and Gandhi strictly reject as abhorrent Kshatriya Dharm. This is the ERROR!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3177/2961132333_c72cc24d66_m.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_OrPiYD1RcAs/SCfoFZAucwI/AAAAAAAABts/SE_3mHs9QJY/s320/narasimha.jpg
Kali Mata and Narasingh avatar

Hindu Dharm doesn't reject self-defense or response to provocation with equal force as immoral or asuric or misguided or unholy. Why do you think all the Devatay and Avtars are pictured ARMED with powerful weapons signifying capacity to destroy their enemies? Because there are no enemies? Do the Devatay and Avtaras suffer from deluded consciousness imagining enemies? Is this only symbolic as in Gandhi's interpretation of Bhagavad-Gita as being only about an interior struggle against one's own inner evil qualities and not being a true history of a war on Kurukshetra battlefield?


Jain Dharma shares some beliefs with Hinduism. Both believe in karma and reincarnation. However, the Jain version of the Ramayana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana) and Mahabharata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata) is different from Hindu beliefs, for example. Generally, Hindus believe that Rama was a reincarnation of God, whereas Jains believe he attained moksha (liberation) because they are free from any belief in a creator god... Mahatma Gandhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi) was deeply influenced (particularly through the guidance of Shrimad Rajchandra) by Jain tenets such as peaceful, protective living and honesty, and made them an integral part of his own philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhism). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JainismGuru Gobind Singh Ji in Shri Dasm Granth has said the Sikh Guru lineage of Bedis and Sodhis are descended from Solar dynasty of Kshatriyas through sons of Ramachandra Ji of Avodhya, Lava and Kusha the ancient Dharmic rulers of Punjab. So Gandhi doesn't have the "only" interpretation. I don't even disagree with it. It is true that Bhagavatam describes interior battle of atma. But I also accept as equally true that Rajaputras and Sikhs have lineage descending from warrior Dharm and correctly obeying Bhagavan Krishna's injunction to "Rise up and fight!" as literal and physical and moral and good.

Jain fasting

Fasting is a tool for doing Tapa and to attach to your inner-being. It is a part of Jain festivals... But before starting the fast Jains take a small vow known as pachkaan. A person taking the vow is bound to it and breaking it is considered to be a bad practice... Most Jains fast at special times, like during festivals... However, a Jain may fast at any time, especially if s/he feels some mistake(negative karma generally known as paap has been committed...
A unique ritual in this religion involves a holy fasting until death; it is called sallekhana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallekhana). Through this one achieves a death with dignity and dispassion as well as no more negative karma... This form of dying is also called Santhara / Samaadhi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JainismIt's obvious where the problem lies, and it isn't with Hindu Dharma. It's with a narrow-minded interpretation of HIndu Dharma by a sincere and "holy" ascetic who adhered strictly to Jain beliefs, who tried to impose this religious interpretation as political reform on newly independent Nation of "secular" India after he rejected that it should be a Hindu Rashtra.

After all Punjab is a place where Lala Lajpat Rai was born. It is the home of brave men. It is the country of the Sikhs. I do not admire the bravery of the Sikhs wielding the sword. In my view true bravery is that which an unarmed man shows. But the people in the Punjab today talk of acquiring arms. When I asked them if they wanted money, they said, ‘‘No, we want weapons.’’ This mentality is again foreign. ~Prarthana Pravachan—I, pp. 182-7 http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL095.PDFHow can our mentality be foreign to our "Bapu?" Simple! Because he is not our bapu. He is Jain's bapu. And he has no right to force morality of non-violence and shame of armed resistance against all norms and traditions of HINDU Kshatriya Dharama! The power of his influence has estranged Hindus from Hindu teaching, because Gandhi REJECTED it. He didn't consider it as legitimate Dharm. He rejected it as EVIL! Just like Gandhi supporters do.
Q. Is it true that you advised some Sikhs, who came to seek your advice on certain matters, that Guru Govind Singh taught the use of the sword while you stood for non-violence, and therefore the Sikhs must be ready to choose the one or the other ?
A. The question is badly, if not mischievously, put. What I did say was that, if they thought the teaching of Guru Govind Singh excluded implicit belief in non-violence, they could not be consistent Congressmen so long as the Congress creed remained what it was. I added that they would be compromising themselves if they joined or remained in the Congress and might even damage their own cause. ~VOL. 77 : 16 OCTOBER, 1939 - 22 FEBRUARY, 1940 293 http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL077.PDF (http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL077.PDF)
And so are all Gandhi supporters have become Jains rejecting martial heritage and mentality of own warrior heritage. He has no right to put Lala Lajpat Rai over Guru Gobind Singh because he UTTERLY misunderstands and rejects moral basis of Kshatriya Dharma. Can you imagine promoting some modern guy who was unarmed and killed over Sikh Guru teaching? What kind of reform is this?


During his visit to Patna for the A.I.C.C., Sardar Mangal Singh drew my attention to an article in Young India entitled”My friend, the revolutionary” in the issue dated 9th April last. He told me that many Sikh friends were offended because they thought I have described Guru Govind Singh as a misguided patriot whereas I had glorified krishna. The Sardarji asked me to take an early opportunity of explaining what I meant by the passages he drew my attention to. The careful reader will note that my language is most guarded. I have made no positive assertion. All that I have said is that believing every statement made about the heroes mentioned including Guru Govind Singh to be true, had I lived as their contemporary I would have called every one of them a misguided patriot. But, in the very next sentence, I have hastened to add that I must not judge them and that I disbelieve history as far as the details of the acts of the heroes are concerned. My belief about the Sikh Gurus is that they were all deeply religious teachers and reformers, that they were all Hindus and that Guru Govind Singh was one of the greatest defenders of Hinduism. I believe, too, that he drew the sword in its defence. But I cannot judge his actions, nor can I use him as my model so far as his resort to the sword is concerned. What I would have done had I lived in his times and held the same views that I hold now I do not know. Such speculation I regard as perfect waste of time. ~32 THE COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI. Young India, 1-10-1925 http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL033.PDF


Should not non-Hindus rejoice in the purification of Hinduism ? Why may not the Congress allow and encourage social and religious reform from the Congress platform ? Non-violent politics cannot be divorced from moral uplift. And why does the correspondent forget that Khilafat itself was a purely religious cause ? There were non-Congress Hindus then as there are now who thought and think that it was a grave mistake made by the Congress in taking up the Khilafat wrong. I have no doubt whatsover as to the correctness of the Congress step. And if a similar thing occurred again, I should not hesitate to give my life in aiding my Muslim brethren. “A friend in need is a friend indeed.” I hope, therefore, that my correspondent and those who think like him will correct their thought and believe with me that every act of purification in any sect or community promotes the well-being of the whole, of which they from a part, and therefore deserves encouragement from all platforms. ~226 THE COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI
VOL. 77 : 16 OCTOBER, 1939 - 22 FEBRUARY, 1940 225
http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL077.PDF
This radical Jain was FORCING Jain Dharma down Hindu throats and this resulted in failed policies in which, in name of glorious suicide, over a million unprotected Hindus and Sikhs lost their lives while being shamed to die more bravely giving own families and lives as offering to Muslims who had declared "jihad."


The second question is: “What a silly old man you are that you cannot see how your ahimsa stinks. Your ahimsa can save neither the Hindus nor the Muslims. If we suffer you to live it is not for your ahimsa but in consideration of the services you have rendered to the country.”
What stinks in my nostrils is not my ahimsa but the blood that is flowing everywhere around me. My ahimsa smells sweet to me. A man who drinks nectar every day does not find it so sweet as when he drinks it after having swallowed a draught of poison. Ahimsa did not always smell as sweet as it does now. For then the atmosphere was permeated with ahimsa. But today when violence is giving out so much stench it is only my ahimsa which acts as an antidote. The letter also asks me why I am repeatedly meeting Mr. Jinnah. He is our enemy and we ought to keep away from him. The Baluchis similarly are our enemies and the Congress ought to have nothing to do with them. How can the Congress do so? Its mission is to serve all. I agree that Mr. Jinnah has done a disservice to the country in denouncing Hindus, especially savarna Hindus as his enemies. If a man acts wickedly one feels sorry but after all he is our brother. Hindus cannot go mad. Although Mr. Jinnah has got Pakistan it does not mean that we should cease to associate with him. ~Prarthana Pravachan–I, pp. 196-8 http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL095.PDFThis has nothing to do with tearing an illustrious "Hindu" to shreds as it does to analyze how Gandhi's political influence has crippled the country to appropriately respond to threats and alienated Kshatriya communities almost pushing Sikhs into pro-Muslim, anti-Hindu politics. These "blunders" cannot be ignored while people are "appalled" at some quote or misquote. The evidence is OVERWHELMING that Gandhi promoted nobility of SUICIDE over SELF-DEFENSE and this resulted in millions rapes and massacres.

So we've gone FAR BEYOND being appalled whether Gandhi specifically said a certain thing or not. The end result was the same. He promoted "defenselessness" and this is paap. His policies led to needless deaths. He WAS great in his own way. But he has been blown into a balloon of infallibility and that is the crime. It's a crime because it caused ordinary Hindu's to view Kshatriya Dharma as foreign and evil whose beliefs are equally holy, wise and beautiful and good!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/Harjas/durgaxk9.jpg
Original Sikh Battle Standard from Anglo Sikh wars kept at Licterfeld War Museum Staffordshire, UK.

Jai Ma!

[saidevo]

namaste Harjas Kaur ji.

I am inclined to agree with almost every word of your posts No.186 and 187. Good that you have started building up the case on evidences found in talks and writings from Gandhi and about Gandhi. I haven't gone through your earlier posts in detail--I did have a sweeping glance though--but I believe the content your are publishing here is worth collecting into a book--a critical analysis on Gandhi the Man, the Mahatma and the Politician.

I strongly recommend that you formalise and organize your contents into a book and publish it on the Internet in Websites such as scribd.com. With some great knowledge about Hinduism (you have shown that you are Hindu at heart and a patriot of our great Nation) and possibly a thorough knowledge of Sikhism,--not to omit your excellent command on the English language--you are in a vantage position to critically analyse Gandhi and write a book about your findings.

As a first step, you might continue to post your findings here in this thread, drawing references specially from Gandhi's Collected Works and from other references, without worrying about (or replying to) what some members might say about your findings.

In the state of affairs that exist in India today under the dynasty of the Gandhi-Nehru rule with the Christian proxy behind it, the open Muslim appeasement it resorts to, and the divide-and-rule policy it adopts towards the majority Hindus, we need to critically examine the charisma of our leaders who only are supposed to have got us the Independence and educate our people, specially the youth.

[saidevo]

David Frawley on those who criticise Gandhi

David Frawley exposes in his article 'Gandhi, Nazis and Bad Hindus' how the West connects the political Gandhis of independent India to Mahatma Gandhi, believes that the Congress Party is all in favour of Gandhism and Gandhian legacy and labels those who criticise Gandhi as bad Hindus with fascist mentality. Some relevant portions of the article:

From the article 'Gandhi, Nazis and Bad Hindus' (Italics added)
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0403/105.html

Let's take a statement about Savarkar, who was mentioned in a recent Wall Street Journal article as such a Nazi sympathizer. Savarkar on the contrary was the main Indian leader who encouraged Indians to join the British run Indian Army in World War II as part of the allied war effort against Hitler, a move which Gandhi opposed as a violation of ahimsa. That doesn't sound like the action of a Nazi sympathizer. He also first raised the call for India's independence in Europe in the early twentieth century at a convocation of socialists, not fascists! But few will bother to check the sources for such statements and see if they are correct.

Such people (people who connect the Gandhis of Indian politics to Gandhiji) are usually Nehruvian, not Gandhian in their views, a distinction that is very important to understand. People in the West don't realize that Nehru himself was not a Gandhian, but a Fabian socialist and agnostic. While Gandhi said he was proud to be a Hindu, Nehru never made any such remarks. Gandhi's choice of Nehru, which many have regarded as Gandhi's greatest mistake, was not because Nehru shared Gandhi's mentality or life-style, but because Nehru represented an aspect of Indian society that Gandhi did not. Nehru was more of a British aristocrat than someone who really understood the traditions of his country.

Yet another part of this line of thinking is to condemn anyone who might criticize Gandhi, as if they were committing a mortal sin. That certain Hindu groups have those among them those who disagree with Gandhi on various points is regarded as proof that these organizations are regressive, if not fascist. Such people ignore the fact that many great Indian leaders and thinkers including Sri Aurobindo, J. Krishnamurti and even Rabindranath Tagore at times were critical of Gandhi, who himself referred to his own Himalayan blunders. One can criticize Gandhi without rejecting Gandhi's greatness altogether, much less being sympathetic to Gandhi's assassination or a fascist.

We should remember that Indian leftists and communists have often been very critical of Gandhi, though they avoid saying this in the West today, and he was opposed to them as well, considering Marxism to be a dangerous and erroneous ideology.

[TatTvamAsi]

Goodness this thread has formed into a beast!

It contains a great amount of truthful information about India along with Gandhi/Nehru policy that shaped the pre & post partitioned India.

Anyway, I think Harjas Kaur ji has beautifully described the assumptions that Gandhi and consequently his close followers held and still do nowadays.

There is a great Tamil saying, "PAttiraM aRindhu picchai idu!" Loosely translated, this means 'measure the size of the container and know the person you are giving alms to'. This applies here because Gandhi's compassion and version of non-violence cannot be applied blindly to everyone, especially violent, rabid muslims, devious christians, and the dangerous separatists (maoists etc.).

That is all we Hindus are saying! Since when have Hindus gone to other communities and attacked, coerced, tricked, and wrought havoc? Hindus always REACT to the atrocities committed upon them by other groups; primarily muslims and christians in India.

Instead of supporting the Hindus' cause and seeing the truth, the pseudo-secular Hindus and other anti-Indians blindly side with the aggressors. Remember, when the time comes, and hopefully soon it will come, the phlegmatic Hindus will be shown no quarter!

JAI HIND!

Namaskar.

[amra]

The lengths some people go to justify mass murder, gives me an insight into how the Nazi's must have thought. They were also influenced by 'spiritual' values the german Volk movement Goethe wagner and all were influenced by a spirituality that became focused on the national state of Germany i.e. Germany is the home of pure spirituality and decent salt of the earth people the German Volk. These people who justify mass murder are doing exactly the same thing - making a spiritualism - 'Sanatana Dharma' - into the focus of the nation state and therefore all other ideas and beliefs are inferior and 'Dangerous' therefore correct to be destroyed. The Nazis also said the Jews were polluting the pure values of the germans taking their jobs etc like the supporters of India now exaggerate the threat of muslims.