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OmSriShivaShakti
27 July 2009, 03:39 PM
If we believe that it is only God that knows the past, present, and the future, how can we believe that people can predict the future by looking towards the stars?

TatTvamAsi
27 July 2009, 05:44 PM
If we believe that it is only God that knows the past, present, and the future, how can we believe that people can predict the future by looking towards the stars?

Your question presupposes an inherent separation between the creator (God) and its creation. This is a fallacious statement to begin with and hence any subsequent questions are also invalid.

To put it simply, the "people" who are able to divine different events in society or for a person are 1.) learned and experienced with jyotish and are able to to tap into the Akashic records or 2.) complete quacks who need to be beaten with a cane.

End of story.

OmSriShivaShakti
27 July 2009, 06:00 PM
If people and God are not separate like you say, then people should be able to predict the future, right?

TatTvamAsi
28 July 2009, 12:14 AM
If people and God are not separate like you say, then people should be able to predict the future, right?

You are right in your assumption that all should be able to predict and have other siddhis (powers) like the saints. However, we know that all incarnations are NOT equal. Meaning, although the "soul" or Atman is universal and is the same everywhere, not just in people, the incarnations are completely different! Otherwise, a human being and a dog would be the 'same'. Ultimately this is true as even science points to it; i.e. String Theory for example or even rudimentary atomic theory (that all objects are made up of atoms of different constitutions forming the 100+ elements and blah blah blah). We do know however that the level of self-awareness is keenly different in an animal and a human being; at least most humans! ;)

And remember, time, or at least how we human beings bound to the indriyas (senses) cognize them, is very linear in pattern. Therefore, time, by definition, is an interval between two events. These two events are in separate planes or "shells" if you will; past, present, and future. If you have studied some QM (quantum mechanics) this would make some sense but if not I will still try to explain it. A particular event in the present has an infinite number of possible outcomes in the future. Our cognition or observation of that event makes it "collapse" into one particular event. However, when we don't observe it, it is potentially in EVERY possible outcome. Therefore, being able to predict a particular event, by astrologers for example, is rather difficult and is consequently somewhat vague. They point in the direction in which an event might occur or a circumstance might arise. No astrologer, at least ones who are somewhat honest, can predict the exact time you will sneeze in the next 10 days. It is rather futile to ask them such questions. That is why most people in society ask about the general outcome of main events in life; marriage, wealth, education, longevity etc.

I am not knowledgeable in Jyotish so perhaps I have taken too much liberty to compartmentalize astrology in one fell swoop so I apologize for that.

However, approaching this subject with the limited understanding of the world only in the realm of the 5-senses and looking at it through a skewed lens of western "mathematical logic" would obviously yield some dubious results.

Predicting events or outcomes in one's life also keenly depends on the Akashic records of which I am not familiar with. The fact is, you cannot look at events in your life with the "one life" perspective that 99.9% of people in the world do; the events in this life shape our path and latent tendencies for future lifetimes. That is why we must always SEE NO EVIL, DO NO EVIL, and SPEAK NO EVIL!

JAI HIND!

Namaskar.

OmSriShivaShakti
28 July 2009, 10:10 AM
However, approaching this subject with the limited understanding of the world only in the realm of the 5-senses and looking at it through a skewed lens of western "mathematical logic" would obviously yield some dubious results.

Predicting events or outcomes in one's life also keenly depends on the Akashic records of which I am not familiar with. The fact is, you cannot look at events in your life with the "one life" perspective that 99.9% of people in the world do; the events in this life shape our path and latent tendencies for future lifetimes. That is why we must always SEE NO EVIL, DO NO EVIL, and SPEAK NO EVIL!

JAI HIND!

Namaskar.

Without using learning, reason and logical thinking along with the 5 senses, how else are we supposed to comprehend anything?

yajvan
28 July 2009, 04:00 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté

One could be asking ' what makes a competent jyotishi ?'

Here is one post that may contribute to the conversation:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1711

praṇām

rkpande
29 July 2009, 08:00 AM
namaskar,

yes indeed, astrology can predict future. what i dont believe is the various methods which a astrologer priscribes to ward off the unwanted future, like wearing some stone. if one believes in karmic theory where karmic despensation is unavoidable then any stone will not alter the karmic retribution.

OmSriShivaShakti
29 July 2009, 03:56 PM
True, many astrologers try to sell people amulets and talismans that are supposed to "ward-off evil" when in reality it is just blind belief. Such superstition should not be believed, especially in our modern times.

yajvan
04 August 2009, 02:37 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté

The true jyotiṣa is the one interested in anothers spiritual advancement and looks to help and support this effort. He/she is then the hitasujana¹.

praṇām

words
hitasujana - hita हित + sujana सुजन
hita हित in the masculine gender (puṃ-liṅga ) means a friend , a benefactor; yet if we go a bit wider it also means beneficial , advantageous , salutary , wholesome , suitable , agreeing with ; well-disposed , favourable , friendly , affectionate , kind ; sent , impelled , urged on , set in motion
sujana सुजन - a good or virtuous or kind or benevolent person

Znanna
04 August 2009, 08:19 PM
"Future" is an implication of "now."

The best soothsayers are those who can acurately describe now - to most that would be a prediction of future, IMO.

Namaste,
ZN

amra
05 August 2009, 04:13 AM
Astrology is a description of the maya you are entangled in, if you become free from identifications then the planets cannot affect you (as much)

rkpande
05 August 2009, 05:22 AM
Hindus believe in Karmic Theory. As you sow as you reap.free will and destiny play its own part. Purushartha karma(present act of free will), either burn your sanchit karma (accumulated) or add on to it -good or bad.
How can stars know as per my free will what course of action will i take at a particular instance, whilch will decide my future. there may be n number of ways i could decide resulting in n number of different futures.
well, if every thing is predetermined then why hang a murderer
Yes i agree as per our past karmas there are some mile stones, predecided, but that could also be changed (Satyawan and Savitri)
scientifically, every person is born with its own genome, the DNA with fixed attributes(Sanchit karma) but epigenetics( The study of heritable changes in genome function that occur WITHOUT CHANGE IN DNA SEQUENCE) changes the expession of genes any time making a man succeptable to say a deciese as per our life style or envoirnmental conditions (purusharth karma). These epigrnetic changes could certainly be not brought about by stars or is it who knows.

yajvan
05 August 2009, 04:08 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté
rkpande writes,

How can stars know as per my free will what course of action will i take at a particular instance, which will decide my future. there may be n number of ways i could decide resulting in n number of different futures.

If we view the stars ( planets) just as, well, bodies in motion that observe the laws of Newton ( which they do) , that would be one thing. Yet another view is based upon the definition of grāha¹. That is grāhaka ग्राहक - one who seizes or takes captive ; from grāha ग्रह-seizing , laying hold of , holding i.e. a grāhaka ~seizes~ or influences the circumstances of the native. This is done via the tattva ¹ they manage and control.
Why do I mention this ? This is from a learned jyotiṣa of our time, Sanjay Rath¹ . He suggests that the grāhaka do not directly control, but indirectly influence and persuade via the tattva ( and their permutations) under their management.


Lets consider another view: It is from one of the ṛṣi-s of the ṛk veda ( some write ṛc or rig) and is Mahāṛṣi Parāśar. When one thinks of vedic astrology, Mahāṛṣi Parāśar's body of work is at the core of this great thinking. He says the following,
The unborn Lord has many incarnations. He has incarnated as the 9 (nava) grahas to bestow on the living beings the results due to their karma-s. He is Janārdana (another name of Viṣṇu). He assumed the auspicious form of graha-s to destroy the demons (evil forces, negativity) and sustain the divine beings.
Where can this be found? Chapter 2, śloka-s 3-4 ; Brihat-parāśara-horā-śāstra, Mahāṛṣi Parāśar
reference site: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3042187/brihat-parashara-hora-sastra-vedic-astrology-ebook (http://www.scribd.com/doc/3042187/brihat-parashara-hora-sastra-vedic-astrology-ebook) for those interested in this body of knowledge.

What else may we view? Bhāgavad gītā (chapt 10, 21st śloka). Of the aditya-s ( ādityānām) I am viṣnuḥ (Viṣnu) , of the luminaries (jyotiṣām) I am the sun ( raviḥ), I am Marīci of the Maruts and among the stars or nakshatra-s (nakṣatrāṇām) I am śaśī ¹ ( the moon).

Within jyótis ( heavenly bodies) the luminaries are king and queen ( if you will ). All happens due to their existence. Many (also) view the sun and the moon as Śiva & Pārvatī or as Śrī Rām & Sitā¹. From them all creation and its influence arise.

praṇām

words and references

grāhaka ग्राहक- more on each name of the grāhaka at the hdf post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4107 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4107)
śaśī शशी - is another way of saying the moon; śaśī is a hare , rabbit , or antelope and the markings on the moon are supposed to resemble a hare or rabbit
Sanjay Rath suggests the Viṣṇu Purāṇa lays out the Vasu’s and tattva a bit more succinctly and it looks like this:
āpa आप – jala (water/fluids)
dhara धर – prithvī - earth/solid/material ; a mass of gold or heap of valuables (representing the earth); rooted (√) in dhṛ, that of bearing , supporting.
anila अनिल- some like to call wind; as mentioned above it's vāyu, air/gasses
anala अनल- agni, tejas , fire/energy ; rooted in (√) in an or fire
dhruva ध्रुव – the pole star yet also means, fixed, firm, immovable. This also includes/represents the following:ākāśa - space where all things reside and;
fixity of the zodiac we call ayanamsa; 'ayana' is a course circulation or path. The course or patterns of the zodiac/sky and the routes taken by the grāhaka
soma सोम – the moon; some call caṇḍa (glowing) or candra
pratyūṣa – the recurring dawn and its two components:
The Sun – as causing the night and day i.e. the source of light behind the dawn, and kāraka of the lagna, also ātmakārka
The lagna – called the ascendant; this word lagna means 'adhering or clinging to , attached to' - this makes sense for ones birth, as it is attached to this location in space and time. It represents the 'self' that of the body .

prabhāsa प्रभास – means 'splendor , beauty ' and represents the nakṣhetra (27-28 lunar mansions or the constellations)
sitā is the wife of rāmacandra and daughter of janaka ; she was named sitā because fabled to have sprung from a furrow made by janaka while ploughing the ground to prepare it for a sacrifice