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rkpande
10 August 2009, 11:56 PM
During the process of incarnation, when the veil of Maya is destroyed, and with all its karmic obligations dissolved, the soul merges with the supreme reality, not to incarnate again.
It is said that every thing that has an end has a beginning.
This implies that when a soul incarnates for the first time, IT has no veil of Maya and is pure, therefore must be in the state of Turiya and will remain so without amassing ITSELF with any karmic load and hence must merge with the Almighty on Its first incarnation ITSELF.
Is there any thing wrong with this argument please?

devotee
11 August 2009, 12:10 AM
During the process of incarnation, when the veil of Maya is destroyed, and with all its karmic obligations dissolved, the soul merges with the supreme reality, not to incarnate again.
It is said that every thing that has an end has a beginning.
This implies that when a soul incarnates for the first time, IT has no veil of Maya and is pure, therefore must be in the state of Turiya and will remain so without amassing ITSELF with any karmic load and hence must merge with the Almighty on Its first incarnation ITSELF.
Is there any thing wrong with this argument please?

Yeah ! There is a big problem due to slight mistake.

When a new soul comes into being it has no veil of Maya ====> Wrong ! Then where is the question of any birth or death ? Actually there is no birth & there is no death. Please concentrate on the analogy of Sea & Waves. The rise of sense of individuality in waves that they have separate existence from the Sea ... is the ignorance & which starts the whole cycle. Why is there rise of individuality in them ? That is Its nature within the First two states of SELF.

When a new soul comes into being, it has no Karmic load ====> Partially correct. Karmic load is not only due to Past karmas but also due to Present & Future Karmas. Under the veil of Maya (illusion of separateness from the Source), the hunger, clinging to "life" etc. takes over & to satisfy that the Karmas begin & that starts the chain reaction of Karmas & their effects.

OM

rkpande
11 August 2009, 12:20 AM
If you agree that the soul's incarnatation has a beginning then it implies that the soul has a beginning therefore it must have an end.

devotee
11 August 2009, 12:32 AM
If you agree that the soul's incarnatation has a beginning then it implies that the soul has a beginning therefore it must have an end.

What is a soul ? How is it different from SELF ?

rkpande
11 August 2009, 12:52 AM
no difference at all

devotee
11 August 2009, 10:07 AM
Namaste Pande ji,


no difference at all

When we see from Advaitic viewpoint, there is no difference because there is no two. However, can there be 'birth' of the unborn, death of the 'deathless', limits of the limitless, ignorance of the omniscient, limited powers of the Omnipotent, multitude of the ONE without a second ? So, when we talk about incarnation of a soul, can it be incarnation of the SELF which is actually UNBORN, DEATHLESS & ONE without a second ?

The answer is in Mandukya Upanishad.

OM

Eastern Mind
11 August 2009, 11:53 AM
Namaste: Just adding my two bits. I could be wrong. The term 'soul' can mean one of two things. It can mean 'self', or it can also refer to the soul body. The soul body is a body of light that reincarnates lifetime after lifetime. This soul takes on bodies, such as the physical and astral bodies. But this soul body is not the self. The self is the essence of the soul, like a seed inside a fruit, or the DNA inside of the seed.

So depending on how you define 'soul' the answer waill vary.

Aum Namasivaya

bhaktajan
11 August 2009, 01:14 PM
One must 'Quote Their sources' ---not 'Protect your sources from prosecution'

Bhagavad-gita says:
"Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all."

The soul is the conscious life force in the body that constitutes the presence of the individual self that is animating the material temporal body that was earned by the level of consciousness.

Eating, sleeping, mating and defending are the four catagories of activities preformed by all embodies sentient beings.

When the self is conscious that their soul is animating the body to preform the same repetative activities birth after birth ---spiritual life begins to explore 'transcendence', above and beyond the physical material manifestation of the cosmos.

Negation of the qualities of the manifest world is the path taken by impersonal metaphysical philosophies ---but the Vedas point, in so many voluminous writtings that there is a person behind all doings, so the soul is an individual, indivisable, unique person.

The part and parcel pieces of individual souls that populate the cosmos are lost in a dynamic mechanical world that actually reflects the want of personal presence.

yajvan
11 August 2009, 09:43 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~


If you agree that the soul's incarnatation has a beginning then it implies that the soul has a beginning therefore it must have an end.

Namasté
What you ask can take us to the depths of wisdom and parallel to the edge of ignorance.
Your question was also asked to Ādi Śaṅkara-ji in his Vivekacūḍāmaṇi¹.
In the 194th and 195th śloka the śiṣya asks ( or said, uvāca) the following:

Whether due to delusion or otherwise that the Supreme Self (parātmanaḥ) assumes that it is an individual (jīvābhavaḥ or state of being an individual), that limiting adjunct is beginningless. Of what is beginningless (anādi¹), there can be no destruction. ||194||
Therefore the individuality of the Supreme Self will be eternal. How can there be liberation (mokṣaḥ) from worldly existence? Please instruct me (vada). ||195||


What you ask rkpande is parallel to this question. Śaṅkara-ji goes on to explain and give insights to this matter. He mentions ( too) that ignorance and its effects are declared to be beginningless but it is not eternal - as it is destroyed with the rise of knowledge (śloka 200 and 201).
He then goes deeper into the relationship of the Self, the individual , the intellect, etc. and their relationships.

Perhaps if your interest continues, you may wish to review this work, Vivekacūḍāmaṇi, with a good translation to assist you and ferret out the wisdom that it holds.


praṇām

words

Vivekacūḍāmaṇi or the Crown jewel of Discrimination ( some say crest jewel) .
anādi अनादि - having no beginning, existing from/for eternity
More discussion on Vivekacūḍāmaṇi can be found here on HDF: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4033

Spiritualseeker
12 August 2009, 07:58 AM
Namaste,

so dear yajvan is this meaning that we have always been with God? Since beginning and were just expressed out through manifestation at a later time? So, this is all illusory there was no such thing as birth and death. We invented it because we are stuck in our egoic mind?

yajvan
12 August 2009, 04:17 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~


Namaste,

so dear yajvan is this meaning that we have always been with God? Since beginning and were just expressed out through manifestation at a later time? So, this is all illusory there was no such thing as birth and death. We invented it because we are stuck in our egoic mind?

You ask a good question - let me go to the 'master' , Ādi Śaṅkara-ji , for his opinion and experience.
He says in the 199th śloka following the śiṣya's question:
Its ( individuality) exists only so long as delusion ( this is called bhrānti¹) persists as it is born of false knowledge.
Now what or who is 'It' Śaṅkara-ji refers to? It is the SELF.
He says in in the 198th śloka , Its individuality is a confusion of a deluded mind and is not real. Delusion ( individuality , limits, etc - these are my words) vanishes with the destruction of delusion (or mohāpāye).


Once this delusion is gone ( by the application of the ointment of knowledge say the wise), then the SELF shines forth, one knows their true nature. So, one would say did the snake ever exist as the rope?

Once we know the rope as rope , it is never again confused as a snake, it never (really) existed.
Like that, the SELF gets associated with boundries , with limits says Śaṅkara-ji.

This is one view that tells the story well. There are other points of view yet the same conclusions come to the forefront. This ignorance (bhrānti or mohā) we experience covers the truth of Being.

It can be removed - and that is the journey of life and sādhana, if one wishes to pursue it.


praṇām

1. bhrānti भ्रान्ति - perplexity , confusion , doubt , error , false opinion; false impression of , mistaking something for

bhaktajan
13 August 2009, 09:53 AM
The individual self/Soul is always "Active".

It is the constitutional composition of an individual living-entity (self/Soul) to be active ---in pursuit of the 4-Catagories of Activity, namely, eat+sleep+mate+defend.

There is an address for every sub-atomic 'Parking-Space' within the expanse of the 'brahman-Sky' (vast empty Space) ---every vector point in the cosmos is occupied & claimed & owned by an individual Jiva-atma (individual Soul).

The knowledge of the Vedas provides for artha-kama-dharma & moksha ---for every common person's daily quota.

Escape from activities will not spot the Jiva-atma (individual Soul) from being a "persona".

A personal God who is transcendental to the Material World & the Material World affairs is thankfully revealed in the Vedic scriptures of India ---after so many 1000's of years . . . mordern day advancements can now be used for the benefit of mankind, for once, by spreading knowledge of the Supreme Personality of God's name, fame, form, personality, paraphenalia, entourage & pastimes . . . and YOU know who I am talking about.

Or is He a mystery to you still? After all your repeated births since time immemorial?

yours in Lord Vasudeva's servant's service,
Bhaktajan

{"K.I.S.S." ---look this acronym up!}

rkpande
14 August 2009, 12:25 AM
The individual self/Soul is always "Active".

It is the constitutional composition of an individual living-entity (self/Soul) to be active ---in pursuit of the 4-Catagories of Activity, namely, eat+sleep+mate+defend
There is an address for every sub-atomic 'Parking-Space' within the expanse of the 'brahman-Sky' (vast empty Space) ---every vector point in the cosmos is occupied & claimed & owned by an individual Jiva-atma (individual Soul).

Are you by any chance reffering to animal kingdom. If we did not do the most important act ie contemplation then we would not have had what we have - these beautiful scriptures nor this computer.

As for the 'parking space'- you imply that all heavenly bodies we see in the sky are full of life. Then what are scientists wasting their time looking for life else where.

bhaktajan
14 August 2009, 03:48 PM
rkpande wrote: Are you by any chance reffering to animal kingdom. If we did not do the most important act ie contemplation then we would not have had what we have - these beautiful scriptures nor this computer.

As for the 'parking space'- you imply that all heavenly bodies we see in the sky are full of life. Then what are scientists wasting their time looking for life else where.

No, I am not referring to animals (the word 'anima' in Latin is 'soul').

All species do four catagories of acts: eat/sleep/mate/defend.

Contemplation is good for poetry and military/industrial/modern technology and also, on the other hand it's used by those seeking to transcend the above material goals.

Farmers, steelworkers, cooks, taxi-cab-drivers are not revered for their abilities to do Contemplation.

maybe you are referring to 'Self-reflection' ---the Contemplation of 'Self-reflection'.

We should perform Contemplation of Arjuna's struggle [as per Bhagavad-gita] with his historic and epic and socially-redeemable 'Self-reflection'
......................................................

As for the 'parking space'- I refer to vastness of outer-space ---that is occupied by conscious SOULS, each as an Individual Being, whom ever they maybe. Just as a point in space (a Vector-Point) is located away from everyother poit in space (physics: "no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time") . . . so similarly, each soul is an individual with their own facility to Act. Such ability of the Soul namely, the individual facility to act is NEVER NEVER desolved, because there is now place else to go [Get it? The point in space owned and occupied by an individual soul has no refuge to escape to!

We are souls in the manifest material world taking birth after birth according to the fruits of our actions ---that simply yield further obligations to perform weven more actions ---in a vicious circle of circular-logic.

The soul must transcend the Brahmanda's shell ---this is done by mapping out precisely the course of action one takes --from experienced & bonefide guides {and you know who they are?}


This is the status quo of existance.

brahman
17 August 2009, 06:06 AM
During the process of incarnation, when the veil of Maya is destroyed, and with all its karmic obligations dissolved, the soul merges with the supreme reality, not to incarnate again.
It is said that every thing that has an end has a beginning.
This implies that when a soul incarnates for the first time, IT has no veil of Maya and is pure, therefore must be in the state of Turiya and will remain so without amassing ITSELF with any karmic load and hence must merge with the Almighty on Its first incarnation ITSELF.
Is there any thing wrong with this argument please?

According to Hindu mythology, a human birth is possible only after one lives many lives, in many bodies, of around 8. 4 million species. Thus, only after stretching over millions of years, and a vast multitude of species, does the creation of man occur, and man become appropriate to talk about salvation. Once this process commences, and before it reaches a logical end, mostly the animal tendencies succumb to karmic obligations. But, as human beings, man exhausts these karmic obligations and strives to enjoy the eternal bliss or attain salvation.
Thus, only human life is capable to imagine, infer or reason the existence of Brahman.

We don’t know what philosophy the other species believe in, or why should we?
Think Brahman; attain Brahman, that’s all we got to do…

Brahman