How did God manifest the universe?

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste,

So according to the scriptures of Sanatana Dharma how did God or mother Goddess create the universe? Does the scriptures conincide with the Big Bang theory (Such as Siva Shakti). Also are some of the stories about the creation metaphoric in the sense just like Siva-Shakti is metaphoric of the potential energy. Sort of how the Taoist say that everything has Resonance or potential energy that is affected by causes which are simultaneious and cause all this quote unquote reality around us.

-juan

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste,

nevermind i found some material. Check this out http://hindu-texts.suite101.com/article.cfm/creation_in_the_riga_veda

[Spiritualseeker]

Hindu Concept of Creation of the Universe

The Hindu tradition perceives the existence of cyclical nature of the universe and everything within it. The cosmos follows one cycle within a framework of cycles. It may have been created and reach an end, but it represents only one turn in the perpetual "wheel of time", which revolves infinitely through successive cycles of creation and destruction. Within this cycle of creation and destruction of the universe, the soul (atman) (http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/Hindu/hol_Hindu-brahman.htm) also undergoes its own version of cycle called samsara (http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/Hindu/hol_Hindu-samsara-and-karma.htm), the cycle of rebirth in which individual souls are repeatedly reincarnated.


In the beginning there was neither existence nor non- existence; there was no atmosphere, no sky, and no realm beyond the sky. What power was there? Where was that power? Who was that power? Was it finite or infinite?
There was neither death nor immortality. There was nothing to distinguish night from day. There was no wind or breath. God alone breathed by his own energy. Other than God there was nothing.
In the beginning darkness was swathed in darkness. All was liquid and formless. God was clothed in emptiness.
Then fire arose within God; and in the fire arose love. This was the seed of the soul. Sages have found this seed within their hearts; they have discovered that it is the bond between existence and non-existence.
Who really knows what happened? Who can describe it? How were things produced? Where was creation born? When the universe was created, the one became many. Who knows how this occurred?
Did creation happen at God's command, or did it happen without his command? He looks down upon creation from the highest heaven. Only he knows the answer -or perhaps he does not know.

Rig Veda 10:129.1-7

http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/Hindu/hol_Hindu-creation-of-the-universe.htm

[Spiritualseeker]

Those who deny God, deny themselves. Those who affirm God, affirm themselves.
God said: 'Let me multiply! Let me have offspring! ' So he heated himself up; and when he was hot, he emitted the entire world, and all that it contains.
And after emitting the world, he entered it. He who has no body, assumed many bodies. He who is infinite, became finite. He who is everywhere, went to particular places. He who is totally wise, caused ignorance. He who sees all truth, caused delusion. God becomes every being, and gives reality to every being.
Before the world was created, God existed, but was invisible. By means of the soul all living beings can know God; and this knowledge fills them with joy. The soul is the source of abiding joy. When we discover the soul in the depths of our consciousness, we are overwhelmed with delight. If the soul did not live within us, then we should not breathe -we should not live.
The soul is one. The soul is changeless, nameless, and formless. Until we understand the soul, we live in fear. Scholars may study the soul through words; but unless they know the soul within themselves, their scholarship merely emphasizes their ignorance, and increases their fear.

Taittiriya Upanishad 2:6; 7

http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/Hindu/hol_Hindu-creation-of-the-universe.htm

[Spiritualseeker]

http://www.hindu-blog.com/2008/04/hinduism-and-big-bang-theory-cosmic.html This is my favorite depiction and explanation of the manifestation of the Universe. ENJOY!

[mukunda20]

Namaste SS,
In case you are interested in learning more about this process, there is a Sloka which is present in all the four Vedas. this is called as the Purusha Sukta.
This describes in great details as to how the Universe was manifested by the Parama Purusha(Paramatma).
the detailed explanation of the sloka is in this link.
http://www.ramanuja.org/purusha/sukta-intro.html
hope this helps,
mukunda

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste,

This is a great read mukunda. The scripture gets a bit intense for me, I am glad they had commentary on it otherwise id be lost.

OM
-juan

[bhaktajan]

“If matter were accepted as the original cause of creation, all the authorized scriptures in the world would be useless, for in every scripture, especially the Vedic scriptures like the Manu-smriti, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is said to be the ultimate creator. The Manu-smriti is considered the highest Vedic direction to humanity. Manu is the giver of law to mankind, and in the Manu-smriti it is clearly stated that before the creation the entire universal space was darkness, without information and without variety, and was in a state of complete suspension, like a dream. Everything was darkness.

The Supreme Personality of Godhead then entered the universal space, and although He is invisible, He created the visible cosmic manifestation. In the material world the Supreme Personality of Godhead is not manifested by His personal presence, but the presence of the cosmic manifestation in different varieties is the proof that everything has been created under His direction. He entered the universe with all creative potencies, and thus He removed the darkness of the unlimited space.

“The form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is described to be transcendental, very subtle, eternal, all-pervading, inconceivable and therefore nonmanifested to the material senses of a conditioned living creature. He desired to expand Himself into many living entities, and with such a desire He first created a vast expanse of water within the universal space and then impregnated that water with living entities. By that process of impregnation a massive body appeared, blazing like a thousand suns, and in that body was the first creative principle, Brahma. The great Parashara Rishi has confirmed this in the Vishnu Purana. He says that the cosmic manifestation visible to us is produced from Lord Vishnu and sustained under His protection. He is the principal maintainer and destroyer of the universal form.

“This cosmic manifestation is one of the diverse energies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As a spider secretes saliva and weaves a web by its own movements but at the end winds up the web within its body, so Lord Vishnu produces this cosmic manifestation from His transcendental body and at the end winds it up within Himself. All the great sages of the Vedic understanding have accepted that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the original creator.

“It is sometimes claimed that the impersonal speculations of great philosophers are meant for the advancement of knowledge without religious ritualistic principles. But the religious ritualistic principles are actually meant for the advancement of spiritual knowledge.

By performance of religious rituals one ultimately reaches the supreme goal of knowledge by understanding that Vasudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the cause of everything. It is clearly stated in the Bhagavad-gita that even those who are advocates of knowledge alone, without any religious ritualistic processes, advance in knowledge after many, many lifetimes of speculation and thus come to the conclusion that Vasudeva is the supreme cause of everything that be.

As a result of this achievement of the goal of life, such an advanced learned scholar or philosopher surrenders unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Religious ritualistic performances are actually meant to cleanse the contaminated mind in the material world, and the special feature of this Age of Kali is that one can easily execute the process of cleansing the mind of contamination by chanting the holy names of God—Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.

“A Vedic injunction states, sarve veda yat padam amananti (Kaöha Up. 1.2.15): all Vedic knowledge is searching after the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Similarly, another Vedic injunction states, narayana-para vedah, the Vedas are meant for understanding Narayana, the Supreme Lord.

Similarly, the Bhagavad-gita also confirms, vedaish ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [Bg. 15.15] by all the Vedas, Krishna is to be known. Therefore, the main purpose of understanding the Vedas, performing Vedic sacrifices and speculating on the Vedanta-sutra is to understand Krishna.

Accepting the impersonalist view of voidness or the nonexistence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead negates all study of the Vedas. Impersonal speculation aims at disproving the conclusion of the Vedas. Therefore any impersonal speculative presentation should be understood to be against the principles of the Vedas, or standard scriptures. Since the speculation of the impersonalists does not follow the principles of the Vedas, their conclusion must be considered to be against the Vedic principles. Anything not supported by the Vedic principles must be considered imaginary and lacking in standard proof. Therefore no impersonalist explanation of any Vedic literature can be accepted.

“If one tries to nullify the conclusions of the Vedas by accepting an unauthorized scripture or so-called scripture, it will be very hard for him to come to the right conclusion about the Absolute Truth. The system for adjusting two contradictory scriptures is to refer to the Vedas, for references from the Vedas are accepted as final judgments. When we refer to a particular scripture, it must be authorized, and for this authority it must strictly follow the Vedic injunctions.

If someone presents an alternative doctrine he himself has manufactured, that doctrine will prove itself useless, for any doctrine that tries to prove that Vedic evidence is meaningless immediately proves itself meaningless. The followers of the Vedas unanimously accept the authority of Manu and Parashara in the disciplic succession.

[satay]

namaskar,


“If matter were accepted as the original cause of creation, all the authorized scriptures in the world would be useless, for in every scripture, especially the Vedic scriptures like the Manu-smriti, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is said to be the ultimate creator. The Manu-smriti is considered the highest Vedic direction to humanity.

Sorry, don't mean to derail this thread but who considers that manu smriti is the highest vedic direction to humanity?

Only shruti is the highest and smriti is lower in classification, at least that's my understanding. manu smriti is not the highest as it is smriti text.

[bhaktajan]

Do you not mean to say, 'Who DOES NOT considers that manu smriti is the highest vedic direction to humanity?'

Who DOES NOT?

I know that the Indian Sub-Continent has had repeated 'Brain-Drains' during the last 30 centuries.

I presume that you, satay, read all your Max Mullers's/Book Store/University Professor's/Your Guru's personal Library's stock of Vedic sastra ---and still you are searching for how best to serve "HUMANITY".

The needs of "HUMANITY" require us not to be misers (grha-medhi).

Stop being a miser (grha-medhi) and at least understand that for common people: the best Vedic Teaching tool for the MAJORITY of HUMANITY is repeated viewing og the 94 Hour long MAHABHARATA by B.R. Chopra.

Why? Because then, all circumstances of the 'Human-Condition' are addresed ---and even those who neglect the cryptic texts of the non-sequitor filled Shruti ---will come to know the highest truths by the grace of Vedic Civilisation's past experiences.

Those who claim to know sastra from the Shruti are playing the roll of an Intellectual without knowing the purpose behind the stakes of pursuing moksha.

Q. Which book is known as the "Law Book for Mankind" in the Vedic canon?
A. MAnu-Samhita.

Q. What is the name of that Manu?
A. Svayambhuva-Manu ---Husband of Satarupa ---Father of Srimatis Akuti, Devahuti and Prasuti ---Father of Srimans Uttanapada and Priyavrata ---son of Lord Brahma.

These persons consider that manu smriti is the highest vedic direction to humanity, amongst others.

Don't be fooled by yet another translation done by those who speak Shakespeare's Language better then you do.

[satay]

hmm...okay
Couldn't help but notice that you made a lot of assumptions about me without any rhyme or reason. It's okay by me.

:coffee:

[satay]

namaskar,


“ He desired to expand Himself into many living entities, and with such a desire He first created a vast expanse of water within the universal space and then impregnated that water with living entities.

Sorry, not to pick on your post again but do you know why Lord himself has 'desires' and yet he instructs us to abandon all desires and be desirelss? How can we be expected to be free of desires when Lord himself has desires?

Again, I am not picking on your post, I am thinking out loud, in general.

You may ignore my post.

[bhaktajan]

Krishna-loka is also called Goloka Vrindavana. Beneath this Goloka are Hari-dhama, Mahesha-dhama, and Devee-dhama. Hari (Vishnu, Narayana) is the formal expansion of the Lord, Mahesha (Siva) is the formal energetic expansion of the Lord, and Devee is the Lord’s energetic expansion. The living entities are also energetic expansions of the Lord.

Krishna is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Baladeva is Krishna’s immediate expansion.

Krishna never leaves Vrindavana, all the forms of Krishna that appear elsewhere are His expansions.

It is to be understood that Baladeva, or Balarama, is the original source of all incarnations and thus He is the sole source of Vasudeva. The immediate expansions of the Lord are called svamsa (personal expansions), and there are also expansions called vibhinnamsa (separated expansions).

Baladeva is the first expansion of Krishna, and from Baladeva expand Sankarshana, Vasudeva, Pradyumna and Aniruddha. From Sankarshana there is an expansion of Narayana, and from Narayana there is a second quadruple expansion of Sankarshana, Vasudeva, Pradyumna and Aniruddha.

The planets within the glowing effulgence are called Hari-dhama. On these planets the predominating Deity is Hari, and the predominated deities are the liberated souls. The features of the liberated souls and those of Hari are almost the same, yet Hari is predominator and the liberated souls are predominated. The innumerable planets in Hari-dhama are predominated by different formal expansions of the Lord, and all of them have different names.

The universes within the material energy are called Devee-dhama, and within Devee-dhama the predominating Deity is Vishnu, who is assisted by Brahma and Siva. Devee-dhama is controlled by three modes, namely goodness, passion, and ignorance. Vishnu is the incarnation of goodness, Brahma of passion, and Siva of ignorance. Brahma creates, Vishnu maintains, and Siva destroys the material creation. The material creation comes into being by the will of the Lord, and it is again annihilated by His will. But although the universes of the material energy are thus created and annihilated, the planets in Hari-dhama are ever existent.

The conditioned living entities who wish to enjoy and not serve are given a chance within Devee-dhama to seek liberation. Some of them enter Hari-dhama, some of them enter Mahesha-dhama, and some of them remain within Devee-dhama. Mahesha-dhama is the marginal place between Hari-dhama and Devee-dhama. The impersonalists who want to merge into the existence of the Transcendence are placed within Mahesha-dhama. Those who want to remain within the planetary systems of the material universes do so on various planets. But those who want to go outside the material energy can enter Hari-dhama and go either to the various planets there or directly to Krishnaloka.

The system of bhakti-yoga makes one eligible to enter Hari-dhama, the system of gyana-yoga makes one eligible to enter Mahesha-dhama, and the system of karma-yoga obliges one to remain in Devee-dhama and repeatedly be born and die, changing his material covering according to the standard of karma he performs.

According to the Vedic version, the Supreme Lord manifests and expands Himself in innumerable expansions, of which the primary expansions are called vishnu-tattva and the secondary expansions are called the living entities. In other words, the vishnu-tattva is the personal expansion, and the living entities are the separated expansions. By His personal expansion, He is manifested in various forms like Lord Rama, Narasimhadeva, Vishnumoorti and all the predominating Deities in the Vaikuntha planets.

[The plenary expansions of the Lord who preside over the Vaikuntha planets are four-armed, and they are known by a variety of names—Purushottama, Trivikrama, Kesava, Madhava, Aniruddha, Hrisheekesa, Sankarshana, Pradyumna, Sreedhara, Vasudeva, Damodara, Janardana, Narayana, Vamana, Padmanabha, etc.]

The separated expansions, the living entities, are eternally servitors. The personal expansions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual identities of the Godhead, are always present. Similarly, the separated expansions of living entities have their identities. As fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, the living entities also have fragmental portions of His qualities, of which independence is one. Every living entity, as an individual soul, has his personal individuality and a minute form of independence.

Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the cause of all causes. Brahma is the deputed agent for creation, Vishnu is the expansion of Krishna for maintenance, and Lord Siva is the expansion of Krishna for dissolution.

“Our dear Lord,” the demigods prayed, “it is very difficult to understand Your eternal form or personality. People in general are unable to understand Your actual form; therefore You are personally descending to exhibit Your original eternal form. Somehow people can understand the different incarnations of Your Lordship, but they are puzzled to understand the eternal form of Krishna with two hands, moving among human beings exactly like one of them. This eternal form of Your Lordship gives ever-increasing transcendental pleasure to the devotees, but for the nondevotees this form is very dangerous.”

Krishna is realized in different degrees as Brahman, Paramatma and the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Krishna consciousness means, concisely, to be always engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. But those who are attached to the impersonal Brahman or the localized Supersoul are also partially Krishna conscious, because impersonal Brahman is the spiritual ray of Krishna and Supersoul is the all-pervading partial expansion of Krishna.

Thus the impersonalist and the meditator are also indirectly Krishna conscious. A directly Krishna conscious person is the topmost transcendentalist because such a devotee knows what is meant by Brahman and Paramatma. His knowledge of the Absolute Truth is perfect, whereas the impersonalist and the meditative yogee are imperfectly Krishna conscious.

Nevertheless, all of these are instructed herewith to be constantly engaged in their particular pursuits so that they may come to the highest perfection sooner or later.

“For material creation, Lord Krishna’s plenary expansion assumes three Vishnus. The first one, Maha-Vishnu, creates the total material energy, known as the mahat-tattva. The second, Garbhodakasayee Vishnu, enters into all the universes to create diversities in each of them. The third, Ksheerodakasayee Vishnu, is diffused as the all-pervading Supersoul in all the universes and is known as Paramatma. He is present even within the atoms. Anyone who knows these three Vishnus can be liberated from material entanglement.”

This material world is a temporary manifestation of one of the energies of the Lord. All the activities of the material world are directed by these three Vishnu expansions of Lord Krishna. These purushas are called incarnations. Generally one who does not know the science of God (Krishna) assumes that this material world is for the enjoyment of the living entities and that the living entities are the purushas—the causes, controllers and enjoyers of the material energy. All Vedic literature agrees that Krishna is the source of Brahma, Siva and all other demigods.

In the Atharva Veda (Gopala-tapanee Upanishad 1.24) it is said, yo brahmanam vidadhati poorvam yo vai vedams ca gapayati sma krishnah:

“It was Krishna who in the beginning instructed Brahma in Vedic knowledge and who disseminated Vedic knowledge in the past.”

Then again the Narayana Upanishad (1) says, atha purusho ha vai narayano ’kamayata prajah srijeyeti: “Then the Supreme Personality Narayana desired to create living entities.”

The Upanishad continues, narayanad brahma jayate, narayanad prajapatih prajayate, narayanad indro jayate, narayanad ashtau vasavo jayante, narayanad ekadasa rudra jayante, narayanad dvadasadityah: “From Narayana, Brahma is born, and from Narayana the patriarchs are also born. From Narayana, Indra is born, from Narayana the eight Vasus are born, from Narayana the eleven Rudras are born, from Narayana the twelve Adityas are born.” This Narayana is an expansion of Krishna.

It is said in the same Vedas, brahmanyo devakee-putrah: “The son of Devakee, Krishna, is the Supreme Personality.” (Narayana Upanishad 4)

Then it is said, eko vai narayana aseen na brahma na isano napo nagni-samau neme dyav-aprithivee na nakshatrani na sooryah: “In the beginning of the creation there was only the Supreme Personality Narayana. There was no Brahma, no Siva, no water, no fire, no moon, no stars in the sky, no sun.” (Maha Upanishad 1)

In the Maha Upanishad it is also said that Lord Siva was born from the forehead of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Vedas say that it is the Supreme Lord, the creator of Brahma and Siva, who is to be worshiped.

Brahma is born out of the lotus stem grown from the navel abdomen of Garbho-daka-sayee Vishnu, who is Krishna’s plenary expansion; therefore Brahma and Lord Siva, who is born of Brahma, and all other demigods must offer their respectful obeisances.

Enlightenment requires one to understand the body (the field of activities) and the knowers of the body (both the individual soul and the Supersoul).

The body is the field of activity and is composed of material nature. The individual soul that is embodied and enjoying the activities of the body is the purusha, or the living entity. He is one knower, and the other is the Supersoul. Of course, it is to be understood that both the Supersoul and the individual entity are different manifestations of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The living entity is in the category of His energy, and the Supersoul is in the category of His personal expansion.

Both material nature and the living entity are eternal. That is to say that they existed before the creation. The material manifestation is from the energy of the Supreme Lord, and so also are the living entities, but the living entities are of the superior energy. Both the living entities and material nature existed before this cosmos was manifested. Material nature was absorbed in the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Maha-Vishnu, and when it was required, it was manifested by the agency of mahat-tattva.

There are different manifestations of the Lord. He is one, but He has become many. He divides Himself into two different expansions, one called kala and the other vibhinnamsa. Ordinary living entities are called vibhinnamsa expansions, and the unlimited expansions of vishnu-tattva, such as Vamana, Govinda, Narayana, Pradyumna, Vasudeva and Ananta, are called svamsa-kala.

Svamsa refers to a direct expansion, and kala denotes an expansion from the expansion of the original Lord. Baladeva is an expansion of Krishna, and from Baladeva the next expansion is Sankarshana; thus Sankarshana is kala, but Baladeva is svamsa. There is no difference, however, among Them.

CC Adi 6.79:
"Rudra, who is an expansion of Sadasiva and who appears in unlimited universes, is also a gunavatara [qualitative incarnation] and is the ornament of all the demigods in the endless universes."



PURPORT
There are eleven expansions of Rudra, or Lord Siva. They are as follows: Ajaikapat, Ahibradhna, Viroopaksha, Raivata, Hara, Bahuroopa, Devasreshtha Tryambaka, Savitra, Jayanta, Pinaki and Aparajita. Besides these expansions there are eight forms of Rudra called earth, water, fire, air, sky, the sun, the moon and soma-yajee. Generally all these Rudras have five faces, three eyes and ten arms. Sometimes it is found that Rudra is compared to Brahma and considered a living entity. But when Rudra is explained to be a partial expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is compared to Sesha.

Lord Siva is therefore simultaneously an expansion of Lord Vishnu and, in his capacity for annihilating the creation, one of the living entities. As an expansion of Lord Vishnu he is called Hara, and he is transcendental to the material qualities, but when he is in touch with tamo-guna he appears contaminated by the material modes of nature. This is explained in Sreemad-Bhagavatam and the Brahma-samhita.

In Sreemad-Bhagavatam, Tenth Canto, it is stated that Lord Rudra is always associated with the material nature when she is in the neutral, un-manifested stage, but when the modes of material nature are agitated he associates with material nature from a distance. In the Brahma-samhita the relationship between Vishnu and Lord Siva is compared to that between milk and yogurt. Milk is converted into yogurt by certain additives, but although milk and yogurt have the same ingredients, they have different functions.

Similarly, Lord Siva is an expansion of Lord Vishnu, yet because of his taking part in the annihilation of the cosmic manifestation, he is considered to be changed, like milk converted into yogurt. In the Puranas it is found that Siva appears sometimes from the heads of Brahma and sometimes from the head of Vishnu. The annihilator, Rudra, is born from Sankarshana and the ultimate fire to burn the whole creation. In the Vayu Purana there is a description of Sadasiva in one of the Vaikuntha planets. That Sadasiva is a direct expansion of Lord Krishna’s form for pastimes. It is said that Sadasiva (Lord Sambhu) is an expansion from the Sadasiva in the Vaikuntha planets (Lord Vishnu) and that his consort, Mahamaya, is an expansion of Rama-devee, or Lakshmee. Mahamaya is the origin or birthplace of material nature.

That Maha-Vishnu who lies on the Causal Ocean is actually an expansion of Balarama, who is Krishna’s first expansion, and, in the Vrindavana pastimes, is the brother of Krishna.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
PS: I love being "picked-on" ---No Problem at all! I am a very good sparring partner dedicated to the 'team'
[there is no "I" in the word 'team'].
My only lament is when some one causes me to "lament".

[bhaktajan]

Lord himself has 'desires'
[Yes that is correct---The lord is the "adi-purusha" ---the "First-Person", so his desires are the same that prevades the Universe into all beings. The lords desires are of the grand-epic-monumental-sanatana catagory]

and yet he instructs us to abandon all desires and be
[satisfied with our alloted mortal duties without the quest for self-engrandisement or personal immortality IWO, without enjoying the fruits Ourselves. ~"Be a generous farmer?"]

How can we be expected to be free of desires
["Being in the Zone" is to be righteously dedicated to the accomplishment of ones own obligations. The General (or Medic; or Chaplin) that walks unprotected through the Battle-field to aide another may be a) careless or b) foolish ---but either way there is no loss nor diminution of purpose ---and such one-pointed dedication to the preformance of ones own dharma is the essence of being "desireless"]


When Lord himself has desires?
[The Lord seeks to play and enliven his devotees ---all the rest are afforded the entire scope of the Universe ---"On the House"].

[Eastern Mind]

Bhaktajan: Which particular Vaisnava sampradaya is this information coming from. I'm curious.

Aum Namasivaya

[bhaktajan]

Q. Which particular Vaisnava sampradaya is this information coming from?

A. By the mercy of "Brahma-Madhva-Chaitanya-Sampradaya".

[atanu]

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
PS: I love being "picked-on" ---No Problem at all! I am a very good sparring partner dedicated to the 'team'
[there is no "I" in the word 'team'].
My only lament is when some one causes me to "lament".



Please say something of your own experience, if you have anything to say. Please do not paste experience-less purports from books as the truth.

You lament only because you have a very big I.

[Eastern Mind]

Non-Vaishnavas are in DENIAL.
How ironic more can existance become? [I pray that I never find out].



This kind of thinking comes from a Christian subconscious. All you've done in the basic premise of "Christ is the only way" is change the word "Christ" to Krishna. The scripture quoting is likened to Bible quoting. All other beliefs are false. (Anyone but a Vaishnava is in denial.)

I think the Hari Krisna movement would have been better off had it not been so open to accepting Christians dissatisfied with their faith, but bringing along many facets of it.

There are many wonderful Vaishnavas and Christians out there that easily get around this narrow narrow concept by adding 'for me' at the end of each statement. In other words. "The worship of Siva as God is right, for me." Going on religious pilgrimages to the sacred shrines of Murugan is right, for me."

Everyone has their own take, and once it becomes name - calling, and sugggestions of stupidity to the other side, well, then its time to hang up the phone.

Aum Namasivaya

[bhaktajan]

Eastern mind, I regret you do not take my statements gravely from a sanatana POV.

If you understand my (vaishnava) sentiment ---and then spend time denouncing it ---you have proven my point.

The irony of your response is my point.

If I go to a psychologist/therapist and I express my VALID opinion ---it would be Ironic to find that the Doctor is simply waiting for a pause in my speaking ---so that he may invalidate my VALID opinion of what constitutes eternal Irony.

Absolute Truth is not the same as poly-truth.

If a summons for your arrest is issued by the court ---the long-arms-of-the-Law will be seeking only the diofinitive & absolutely Right Person Only, that is the way of nature.

Absolute constucts allow for mundane/transcient/trivial/subjective tenents to temporarily take up residence.

"The Concept of Moksha that you presume to stand for is a foggy notion ---as per scripture" ----this is my opinion of Demigod worshippers.

This is nothing foggy about the descriptions of transcendence given in the Vedas. So, if one consciously avoids the absolute descriptions of transcendence given in the Vedas . . . that is the height of Irony for the soul ensnared in samsara.

[Eastern Mind]

My God, whose Absolute Being transcends time, form and space indeed loves all and is in all. He encircles the universe and all its inhabitants with His radiant Love. He goes by many names. For some He is Siva. For others He is Krishna. For still others He has no name. He loves You as His child. As His devotee, I try to follow in His likeness, and love all as well.

Can You say the same of Your God, or is he as fond of criticising as His follower seems to be?

Aum Namasivaya