Disproving Christianity easy as 1,2,3...

[TatTvamAsi]

Disproving this nonsensical cult people around the world call "christianity" is as easy as 1, 2, 3.

Seriously.

The definition of a Christian is one who believes in the trinitarian "god" and that his messenger (son LOL) is jesus whilst having a literal interpretation and tacit belief in ALL the points in the bible.

Therefore, I present three (3) arguments that disprove christianity from its foundation. I would like to challenge ANY christian, practicing preferably, to disprove my points.

1.) Adam & Eve:

The (fairy tale) story of Adam & Eve is paramount in Abrahamic faiths; especially that of Christianity. It gives a philosophical yet historic account of the earth, life, and origin of the human species.

Hence, let us proceed with "facts" from the bible.

Adam & Eve, who were supposedly made in the image of god (can god be that ugly?), had three main sons; Cain, Abel, & Seth. They had other progeny however these three guys were the main torchbearers of the Adam/Eve family.

Point 1: If Adam & Eve had three (3) sons, how on earth were more people created; or how did they procreate to have more people? Using logic, although christianity & logic are antipodes, the only way for procreation is for some of Adam & Eve's children to procreate with their parents, primarily Eve. This means that ALL human beings on this planet are a product of incestuous relationships!

2.) God's Omnipresence:

God, according to the Old Testament and hence important in ALL three (3) Abrahamic faiths, is omnipresent or present everywhere (in the universe).

By definition, if God is omnipresent, he is present in the trees, rocks, mud, water, and... even IDOLS. However, more importantly, as Christians, belief in absolute GOOD & EVIL means that 'heaven' and 'hell' as physical realms/places exist.

Point #2: If God is omnipresent, that means he is present in HELL also. Therefore, if all the non-believers are sent to burn in Hell, well, they will be by God's side. So, this begs the question, "What do non-believers have to worry about when they will be by God's side no matter what?" ;)

3.) God's Omniscience:

God, again according to the Abrahamic scriptures, is omniscient or all-knowing. If this is indeed true, why on earth was "lucifer" (the devil) created as an angel? Did God not know that he would rebel and "fall" from grace? If he did know, why such a devious plot to create evil and tempt mankind? Many Christians will say "free-will". Free-will is a joke of an answer because, according to Christianity, we are all God's "children". If we are God's "children", would He be so callous as to allow us to "choose" between that which is 'good' and that which is 'evil'? Would we allow our 'children' to choose between a plump laddoo or a mound of dirt?? What does every "loving" parent do? Protect their children from evil of any sort.

Secondly, if God is omniscient, he already knows ALL the people who will accept him or reject him even before they are born. If he already knows, where is the "choosing" at all? That means that people think they are choosing but in reality the choice is already made! Also, what about ALL the people born before jesus? A Christian will say they all went to heaven because they didn't hear about jesus so God took them to heaven. Well, what about ALL the people in various corners of the globe who have never heard about jesus? Since they will go to heaven, why the hell should we hear about jesus in the first place? Hearing about him is more like a curse (due to being forced to choose) than not.

Point #3: God, if omniscient already knows who is going to choose Him and who is going to reject Him. If he doesn't and we as humans really have 'free will', God is no God because he is a duffer!

These are some of the glaring contradictions in Abrahamic philosophy. No wonder they have to bribe and coerce people around the world to convert to their desert cult!

JAI HIND!

Namaskar.

[Hiwaunis]

Pranam,
Awhhhhhh,
Why did you stop at 3 points. My favorite is, "Jesus died for my sins, all I have to do is believe in Him and I'll get a mansion in heaven when I die."

That's just great, what a deal! Of course every other convicted prisoner believes in Jesus. Your next door neighbor is a raper. The guy 1 block down is a serial killer. Oh, and the guy 2 doors down is a cannibal.

I wonder, if Christians really believe that Jesus died for their sins and they will get a mansion in heavan why are they still here? So what if suicide is a sin. Jesus will forgive you. He already has. NOW GO GET YOUR MANSIONS!

Seriously, I know for a fact that most Christians do not know what the Bible says. They have never read it. They just believe what they are told to believe.

Namaste,

[chandu_69]

Namaste



Seriously, I know for a fact that most Christians do not know what the Bible says. They have never read it. They just believe what they are told to believe.


Like you many Armchair 'intellectual' hindus claim to know Jesus better than the christians.

The concept that Jesus died for sins of other people is firmly established in bible.
Here are some references

Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Mark 14:36 (http://bible.cc/mark/14-36.htm)

John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

[TatTvamAsi]

You still couldn't disprove my points.

To quote Mahatma Gandhi, "You Christians are so unlike your Christ!"


Namaste



Like you many Armchair 'intellectual' hindus claim to know Jesus better than the christians.

The concept that Jesus died for sins of other people is firmly established in bible.
Here are some references

Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Mark 14:36 (http://bible.cc/mark/14-36.htm)

John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

[Eastern Mind]

Vanakkam:

My two bits:
Disproving Christianity is like proving reincarnation. Its just a given. Rather then disproving Christianity, lets just be better Hindus. Personally, I don't think Christ even existed, but I don't really care. What's that stuff got to do with living dharmicaly?

Aum Namasivaya

[Hiwaunis]

Vanakkam:

My two bits:
Disproving Christianity is like proving reincarnation. Its just a given. Rather then disproving Christianity, lets just be better Hindus. Personally, I don't think Christ even existed, but I don't really care. What's that stuff got to do with living dharmicaly?

Aum Namasivaya

Pranam,
Actually, Christianity can and has been disproven many times. But getting that information to the masses is another story. It's hard to just stop believing in something you thought was the truth all of your life.

But my vote goes for the "Hindu Armchair intellectuals" who are willing to at least read and learn about other's religion. Most Christians will never do that.

Namaste,

[Eastern Mind]

Pranam,
Actually, Christianity can and has been disproven many times. But getting that information to the masses is another story. It's hard to just stop believing in something you thought was the truth all of your life.



That was my point. Its a given. Usually people just stop on their own when they start thinking for themselves. However, because of soul age, or genetics, they just can't. Similarly, there is a correlation between left wing politics, as well as religious diversity on or near university campuses. I wonder why.

Aum Namasivaya

[chandu_69]

You still couldn't disprove my points.

I was not trying to disprove your points.:headscratch:


To quote Mahatma Gandhi, "You Christians are so unlike your Christ!"'Mahatma' Gandhi laid the foundation for the fallacy that christians don't understand Jesus.
Christians perfectly understand what is Jesus and his message in Bible.

For example the fraudulent healing missions have a basis in Jesus's sayings like

Matthew 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

[Hiwaunis]

That was my point. Its a given. Usually people just stop on their own when they start thinking for themselves. However, because of soul age, or genetics, they just can't. Similarly, there is a correlation between left wing politics, as well as religious diversity on or near university campuses. I wonder why.

Aum Namasivaya

Pranam,
Whenever I see the word politics I immediately think of 2 words, money and war. I must admit Christians do make good soldiers. What a shame.

Namaste,

[atanu]

Namaste Friends,

Actually disproving anything is easy. A spiritual friend of mine used to relate a story.

An artist created an art work and put it up on a crossroad inviting comments from onloookers. Many people pasted their comments and not a single comment was kind and appreciative. People complained of imperfect nose and figures, dark background or excessively lighted background etc. Then the artist invited the commentators to correct the picture as per the visions of the critics. And no one came forward to create a perfect picture.

There is a raunchy story (I hope the spiritually minded people here will not take offence). It seems Ford, the great car enterpreneur, had a talk with God. Ford complained that God's creation (the woman) was imperfect from the word go. It had fat wobbly top and back ends, very narrow headlights called eyes. The intelligence systems were non-existent and the emotional systems totally unreliable and often dangerous. The sensors were all too imperfect, Ford told God very emphatically, contrasting with the perfect car that he had created. God pressed a key on His PC and boomed "Figures, however, reveal that more people are riding my creation."

----------------------

All scripture, without exception teach "Surrender". Lord teaches so in Gita in the 18th Chapter. The Buddha teaches "The true bliss is giving up the conceit of 'I am'. The Muslim creed is Islam-Surrender. Bible also teaches "Thy will be done".

Devotees often tried to provoke great Advaita Guru Ramana Maharshi to speak against or criticise the Gurus and followers of other creeds, including Non-Advaita Hindu creeds. He taught "All scriptures commonly teach surrender. So, let us surrender completely and then find out what differences exist".

-------------------
However, it is good entertainment and good past time to argue, if one comprehends the limits. It is also good to debate with open mind for one's enrichment. And for us discussions help remembrance.

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

What good can come from this string?

What do the wise say? Svāmī Brahmānanda Sarasvatī , Śaṅkarācārya of Jyotirmath (1941-1953) , informs us of the following:
Don't do nindā (nindā निन्दा speaking ill, blaming, scorning) and if you are spoken ill of, understand him to be well-wishing one's own salvation, that speaking of you, he takes your sins on himself.


Bhāgavad gītā , Chapt 3, 31st śloka Kṛṣṇa says the following,
Those men who are possessed of faith (śraddhā¹), who do not find fault (anasūyantah¹)and always follow the teaching of Mine, they too are liberated from action.


When one speaks ill of others he partakes of the sin's of others for whom he speaks... Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī

praṇām

words

anasūya अनसूय not spiteful; absence of ill-will or envy + anta अन्त condition of
śraddhā श्रद्धा- to have faith or faithfulness , have belief or confidence , believe , be true or trustful ; this should not be confused with śrāddha श्राद्ध ; śrāddha is not a funeral ceremony (antyeṣṭi) but a supplement to such a ceremony

[Eastern Mind]

This brings me back to the observation versus criticism thing again. There is opinion, and then there is hate filled opinion. Just because I don't think Christ existed doesn't mean I hate Christians. But then again, Yajvan, I'm not sure who you were referring to. I agree that such threads don't lead very far. I try to avoid posting on them for this reason.

Aum Namasivaya

[sunyata07]

Namaste,

Although I sometimes find Christians as obtuse, hypocritical, awfully backwards in their line of thinking and use of reasoning in attacking other faiths while advocating their own, I am of the same mind as Yajvan about this. If I could even add to that of a quote from the Buddha: "If a man, on hearing of what is good, comes and creates a disturbance, you should hold your peace. You must not angrily upbraid him; then he who has come to curse you will merely harm himself."

It serves no purpose to be always picking at the beliefs of others. Are we really going to lower ourselves to the standards that some Bible-thumping Christians have done by picking apart other people's faith and laughing at what they believe in? We're engaging in the same childish squabbles that you might see in a schoolyard. I would hope that the majority of us here are of far higher upright calibre than that.

I have always had the deepest respect for Sanatana Dharma even in my Christian days when I only knew a little about Hinduism. Later when I became acquainted that a great many people from different faiths were well versed in the Bible and Christian philosophy from interest and awareness and not just from the demographic distribution of those ubiquitous Christians, it only deepened my respect for these people outside my religion and made Christians look even more ignorant about other faiths. Even looking at this board I have seen members use quotes from the Bible to sometimes back up a principle that seemed universally evident in any walk of life. I didn't just find that admirable. I found it inspiring and unifying.

"God can be realized through all paths. All religions are true. The important thing is to reach the roof. You can reach it by stone stairs or by wooden stairs or by bamboo steps or by a rope. You can also climb up by a bamboo pole." - Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa

It's something many Christians obviously haven't woken up to yet, but let's not forget it ourselves. :)

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté EM,

This brings me back to the observation versus criticism thing again. There is opinion, and then there is hate filled opinion. Just because I don't think Christ existed doesn't mean I hate Christians. But then again, Yajvan, I'm not sure who you were referring to. I agree that such threads don't lead very far. I try to avoid posting on them for this reason. Aum Namasivaya

Thank you and sunyata07 for your level headed posts. My post was not aimed any one one in particular, but offered as a POV worthy of consideration.

Atanu also offers

Devotees often tried to provoke great Advaita Guru Ramana Maharshi to speak against or criticise the Gurus and followers of other creeds, including Non-Advaita Hindu creeds. He taught "All scriptures commonly teach surrender. So, let us surrender completely and then find out what differences exist".


My opinion is the following - how can I expect Christians to accept my spiritual orientation and approach (dharma the best I know how to practice it) , if I do not accept theirs?

so, yajvan what is your view on Christianity? I have posted it here: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3876

praṇām

[chandu_69]

Namaste Sunyata,

If you don't mind i would like to respond to your 'level headed post'.


Namaste,

Although I sometimes find Christians as obtuse, hypocritical, awfully backwards in their line of thinking and use of reasoning in attacking other faiths while advocating their own,

I respect their sincerity cause they are sincerely following their faith as laid out in the bible.

Those who don't follow christ are actually unrighteous and deserve eternal hell; says bible.



I am of the same mind as Yajvan about this. If I could even add to that of a quote from the Buddha: "If a man, on hearing of what is good, comes and creates a disturbance, you should hold your peace. You must not angrily upbraid him; then he who has come to curse you will merely harm himself."

That didnt do any good to Hindus.One has to resist evil.period


It serves no purpose to be always picking at the beliefs of others. Are we really going to lower ourselves to the standards that some Bible-thumping Christians have done by picking apart other people's faith and laughing at what they believe in?

I do agree with you broadly.One should not pick up on other faiths just for the sake of it unless you have a serious point to make.


I became acquainted that a great many people from different faiths were well versed in the Bible and Christian philosophy from interest and awareness and not just from the demographic distribution of those ubiquitous Christians, it only deepened my respect for these people outside my religion and made Christians look even more ignorant about other faiths.

I think you are probably ignorant about your erstwhile religion i.e. christianity .I find many christians perfectly aware of what Bible teaches.



Even looking at this board I have seen members use quotes from the Bible to sometimes back up a principle that seemed universally evident in any walk of life.

What quote you picked up in this forum(from bible) that is unversally evident? May i know ?



"God can be realized through all paths. All religions are true.

Yes, including the ones that say GOD IS jealous and wants to kill those who don't worship him.

[TatTvamAsi]

Chandu,

I don't get you. You seemed to support christianity in your first reply and now you seem to be finding fault with it.

Can you make up your mind?

This thread is NOT for comparing the two faiths; Hinduism & christianity.

There is NO comparison to begin with.

Namaskar.

[chandu_69]

Chandu,

I don't get you. You seemed to support christianity in your first reply and now you seem to be finding fault with it.

NOPE, either you are reading it wrong or the fault lies with me.I am merely pointing out the arrogance of those hindus who think they know more about Jesus than the christians.

[Hiwaunis]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

What good can come from this string?

What do the wise say? Svāmī Brahmānanda Sarasvatī , Śaṅkarācārya of Jyotirmath (1941-1953) , informs us of the following:
Don't do nindā (nindā निन्दा speaking ill, blaming, scorning) and if you are spoken ill of, understand him to be well-wishing one's own salvation, that speaking of you, he takes your sins on himself.


Bhāgavad gītā , Chapt 3, 31st śloka Kṛṣṇa says the following,
Those men who are possessed of faith (śraddhā¹), who do not find fault (anasūyantah¹)and always follow the teaching of Mine, they too are liberated from action.


When one speaks ill of others he partakes of the sin's of others for whom he speaks... Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī

praṇām

words
anasūya अनसूय not spiteful; absence of ill-will or envy + anta अन्त condition of
śraddhā श्रद्धा- to have faith or faithfulness , have belief or confidence , believe , be true or trustful ; this should not be confused with śrāddha श्राद्ध ; śrāddha is not a funeral ceremony (antyeṣṭi) but a supplement to such a ceremony

Pranam,
This is the age of Aquirius, the information age. For those of us discussing here we probably don't care one way or the other. Just passing time.

But there are people out there who are looking for answers. If no one is willing to point out the truth then how will they know.

I have these conversations about religion with Christians ALL THE TIME! They are (we were) taught that what's in the Bible is the absolute Truth and everybody else is wrong! Most do not know that they have choices. But they do have a lot of questions about Christianity and the Hindu Gods.

Sure some Christians may read this post and get upset and others may read it and decide to do research. Either way they will get information.

Namaste,

[atanu]

But there are people out there who are looking for answers. If no one is willing to point out the truth then how will they know.
Namaste,

Namaste Hiwaunis,

I agree. Existence of Shaitan or Devil as a Second to the one, who is One Wthout a Second, is an impossiblity. This every one every where has to experience. No doubt, the objects which are called Christians and Muslims need to internalise this knowledge the most.

However, many hindus, who profess to have advaita faith also have not experienced this knowledge. The Universe is not individual's creation. Many Hindus also do not have faith in Hindu scriptures that teach that Ishwara is ONE and ALL and has the WILL and the PLAN. He alone spreads out the Universe like a spider spreads its net and He alone withdraws it.

Om Namah Shivaya

[chandu_69]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

What good can come from this string?

I particularly didnt like the way the title was presented but the arguments surely can do some good to keep the bible thumping christians in check who are out to create hatred against hindu religion.



Bhāgavad gītā , Chapt 3, 31st śloka Kṛṣṇa says the following,
Those men who are possessed of faith (śraddhā¹), who do not find fault (anasūyantah¹)and always follow the teaching of Mine, they too are liberated from action.That translation appears to be different from most authoritative ones.

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-03-31.html.

The anasüyantaù is translated as "not without envy" and those who said "not finding fault" said it with respect to teachings in Gita/Vedas.

So, one should keep quite when the imperialistic religions attack hinduism.

Is that what you are saying? yajvanji.

[chandu_69]

Many Hindus also do not have faith in Hindu scriptures that teach that Ishwara is ONE and ALL and has the WILL and the PLAN. He alone spreads out the Universe like a spider spreads its net and He alone withdraws it.

Om Namah Shivaya

And he alone creates people to counter Evil.Of course he also creates people who talk gibberish.

[chandu_69]

The latest Statement of Pope:

In our days, when in vast areas of the world the faith is in danger of dying out like a flame which no longer has fuel, the overriding priority is to make God present in this world and to show men and women the way to God. Not just any god, but the God who spoke on Sinai;

So how do one counter these Popes who says Only Jesus is god?.

Any practical suggestions?.

The statement continues:
The real problem at this moment of our history is that God is disappearing from the human horizon,...
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica_en.html

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté Hiwaunis


Pranam,
This is the age of Aquirius, the information age. For those of us discussing here we probably don't care one way or the other. Just passing time.


FYI only :)
From an astrological POV the 'Ages' are defined as the vernal equinox point ( aka first day of spring) seen from Earth, against the stars of a specific constellation. Hence it is that date when the Sun crosses the Celestial Equator heading northwards, as seen from Earth. That said,
the Age of Aquarius is due in the approximate year of 2600.

You have mentioned,


I have these conversations about religion with Christians ALL THE TIME! They are (we were) taught that what's in the Bible is the absolute Truth and everybody else is wrong!

I too have had these conversations , but not as a wrestling match. The people I have conversed with were open minded and genuinely interested in my views, as I was interested in theirs. Where there differences? Sure. But there also were places of commonality.

The problem as I see it is the notion of generalities... we tend to generalize people into clumps, groups and therefore infer ( from the sample size) that the total collection of these people are represented by the sample we experienced.
My experiences have been + and -. So when a new sample comes to me I make efforts to remain as ~neutral~ as I can then compare it against my database of experiences.
Overall , my experiences have not been 'bad' where it has scarred me . I push myself to remain open - yet I can see how one could have a bad experience and take issue with the Christian belief. But as I have said in another post, I do not feel threatened by their beliefs because I am anchored in the knowledge of sanātana dharma.

I respect other religions. Not only is that easier on my mind, it is Kṛṣṇa's direction given in Chapt. 3, 35th verse of the Bhāgavad gītā .

praṇām

[atanu]

And he alone creates people to counter Evil.Of course he also creates people who talk gibberish.

Surely. Countering gibberish is a duty and good. (though some see gibberish only in others just as missionary christians do).

But you are fundamentally wrong when you say "he also creates people who talk gibberish", since God does not create or impel anyone to ignorance and gibberish. It is the ego, which is ignorant of the knowledge of Brahman as Purna (full), that only talks gibberish. Ego is not a creation but svabhava of Prabhu (Lord-primeval Atman) to appear divided in bodies although Atman is indivisible.

Though all scriptures teach that the reality is indivisible, but sense bound perceptions cannot give up the divisive view easily. Some are more prone to it and some are less prone to it. That is all. All evil is created from the interactions of wrong knowledge that individual soul is an eternal reality.


Existence of Shaitan, Devil or Evil as a Second to the one, who is One Wthout a Second, is an impossiblity. In this aspect most christians hold divergent views from most hindus. The first dictum of Hinduism is "That is Full and This is Full. The Full proceeds from the Full, which reamins the Full."

Brahman being advaita shivo atman, there is no scope of evil, except as bhandasura (fake demon) on account of ignorance. But missionary Christians tend to see evil and ignorance everywhere except in themselves. And missionary Christians have used money and power to achieve their sectarian goals. Such evil efforts must be countered by every means. But as Shri Yajvan has experienced, I have also experienced reasonable Christians.

On the other hand, you will see examples of people who preach that only Rama nama can liberate or only knowing Uttamah can liberate. There are people who create division among Hindus by citing Gita and purporting that only Krishna can grant moksha and immoratlity, forgetting the fullness that Shri Krishna represents. They are ready to dump Vedas. Their adoration of Lord is sectarian similar to the sectarian adoration of Jesus by immature christians, who see Devil in dvaita mode and not as the ignorance of Ego.

ArambhavAdis everywhere exhibit some commonalities.

Om Namah Shivaya