Principles I have found...

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté

I have been introduced to a few principles over the years that I found hold true. These have been taught and offered to me by teachers, my reading & study, etc. Let me avoid a long list and ask if you had any that you have found weathered the test of time for you?

The world is as you are.
That is, when you are happy or dull , the world takes on that appearance also. This is why when a person becomes liberated 'all is right with the world' as there are no issues occurring internally, peace and happiness is found within and without.
When one is healthy and bright, then many challenges become opportunities. Yet if one is dull, lethargic and in general unbalanced, the sky is always falling on him or her and the universe is seen as a foe.

What you put your attention on grows stronger in your life or what you think you become
If one chooses uplifting subjects and conversations, that grows in one's life. If one is negative and finds fault all the time, this too grows stronger in all occasions. Suspicions grow. Being excessively critical ( without merit) is the fertile ground for being increasingly cynical.
This idea is in close association with the following:

What you 'eat' you become
Eating here includes all the senses, not just the tongue. What we watch, read, associate with, are all inputs to the mind and to its processing and available to thinking and choices. Over time you reflect what you eat.

The things you do not like about someone else are those things you would not do yourself.
This was a most insightful discovery for me. It can be all the way from ' how can that person wear those clothes' , or ' how can that person walk around with that dirt and grime on them', or 'look who he is associating with'. These things are what we would not do ourselves and hence we see the 'fault' of another doing it and it is repelling or disdainful to accept.
This notion is the core of 'what's wrong with that person?' thinking.

These are just a few… perhaps you have a few to share?

praṇām

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~




… perhaps you have a few to share?

All this wisdom on HDF and no principles to share? :)


praṇām

[Eastern Mind]

Hey you have to give some time for reflection. lol Patience is a virtue, buddy. There are hundreds of apt principles.

Here's one I discovered the hard way.

When arguments occur with loved ones, chances are pretty good that one or both participants are tired. (Moral: Don't take things personally in such discussions, even tiredness passes with a good night's sleep.)

Aum Namasivaya

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste,

Nice post yajvan. I was just recently watching the film called "What the Bleep Do We Know" and it speaks a lot of this. Like you said if one is dull then the world appears like that. Because the peptides continue to formulate with our continous dull thoughts or thoughts of worry, fear, etc... Over time it just intertwines and we are stuck in our addiction. So the world never changes until we undue those effects.

[vcindiana]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~




All this wisdom on HDF and no principles to share? :)


praṇām


Dear Yaj:

The best principle I have learnt is the summary of BG ( and even SD) in Chapter 2 verse 47 . Any thing I do in this life I try to relate to this verse. This is the genius of Vyasa who I guess in gratitude gave the credit to Krishna.
I find these are indeed the most powerful words ever spoken. It is all about LOVE.

Love...................VC

[dhruva023]

Dear Yaj:

The best principle I have learnt is the summary of BG ( and even SD) in Chapter 2 verse 47 . Any thing I do in this life I try to relate to this verse. This is the genius of Vyasa who I guess in gratitude gave the credit to Krishna.
I find these are indeed the most powerful words ever spoken. It is all about LOVE.

Love...................VC

Could you post that verse, please ?

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté VC,


. This is the genius of Vyasa who I guess in gratitude gave the credit to Krishna.

You have brought up Vyāsa in your post… I think you will be surprised/impressed to find out who Vyāsa¹ (Kṛṣṇa Dvaipāyana ) really is. Where to look?
The śrīmad bhāgavata mahāpurāṇa. Here is the reference : http://bhagavata.org/canto1/chapter3.html (http://bhagavata.org/canto1/chapter3.html) ; look for the 17th desent of the Lord into the word of matter.

praṇām

words



Veda Vyāsa वेद व्यास, the one who compiled the veda-s, or Kṛṣṇa Dvaipāyana ;
Kṛṣṇa= dark in complexion and Dvaipāyana suggests where Vyāsa was born:
dvi द्वि is 2 ; pāya पाय is water ; dvipa द्विप is drinking twice and dvīpa द्वीप an island , peninsula , sandbank.
Hence born on an island where two rivers join or meet

[vcindiana]

Could you post that verse, please ?

Indeed it is my pleasure Dhruva

karmaṇy evādhikāras te (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/t/te)
mā (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/m/ma)phaleṣu (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/phalesu)kadācana (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/k/kadacana)
mā (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/m/ma)karma (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/k/karma)-phala (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/phala)-hetur bhūr
mā (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/m/ma)te (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/t/te) sańgo 'stv akarmaṇi (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/a/akarmani)

You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.

I find every word in this verse is of paramount importance. Again it is all about LOVE.

Love.................VC

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

while I applaud every attempt to translate this verse, and we have reviewed this śloka multiple times, the key take-away is you cannot control the outcome of an action.

Kṛṣṇa says the following in the Bhāgavad gītā (chapter 2, 47th śloka)
karmaṇi evādhikāras te
mā phalesu kadācana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr
mā te saṅgo'stv akarmaṇi
This says, you certainly (eva) have ādhikāra¹ (claim , right , privilege, control) of your (te or ti) karmaṇi (of your actions) , but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu) .

Just so there is no confusion - 'but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu)' clearly points that the individual cannot control the outcome. You do not have a choice on the level of success or failure that may result from that action that is initiated.

The remaining words tell us say in general live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction.

Where is my issue? VC offers the following:

but you are not entitled to the fruits of action This is not the intent of Kṛṣṇa's words.

praṇām

[Eastern Mind]

Don't be in a hurry.

1) not good for health, physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual
2) leads to silly errors
3) you miss out on the beauty of things

Aum Namasivaya

[vcindiana]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


Just so there is no confusion - 'but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu)' clearly points that the individual cannot control the outcome. You do not have a choice on the level of success or failure that may result from that action that is initiated.


The remaining words tell us say in general live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction.

Where is my issue? VC offers the following:
This is not the intent of Kṛṣṇa's words.

praṇām

Dear Yaj: I do respect your interpretation. You do seem to be knowledgeable. That is very good. What is the difference between some one being not entitled and some one not having a choice on a level of success or failure? What I see is in an entitlement I do have a choice and I can control the outcome. Love.... VC

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté VC,



Dear Yaj: I do respect your interpretation. You do seem to be knowledgeable. That is very good. What is the difference between some one being not entitled and some one not having a choice on a level of success or failure? What I see is in an entitlement I do have a choice and I can control the outcome. Love.... VC

First let me say thank you for asking. And also I take no ownership of the interpretation. This comes via my teachings and the lineage (paramparā) and what has been taught.

Let me see if I can explain the differences in words and examples.

you offer the following:

You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.
Everything on this earth is born of an action. Every thing we do.
Let me offer a simple example. You stand up and you walk from point A to point B. That is an action and you arrive at point B. You have just achieved the fruit of your action. You open your eyes ( an action) and you perceive the world ( the fruit of your action). If you perform an action there is a re-action to it. Since you had an intention to do something, you then by the mechanics of this Universe get the reaction to it. That is the fruit. Actions you choose comes with reactions or results, it's the fruit.
What you cannot choose ( says Kṛṣṇa) is the quality of your result. We have talked of this before and do not have a better example then this - baseball.
My intent, my choice my ādhikāra (claim , right , privilege, control) of actions karmaṇi, to hit the ball is mine. Yet I do not get to choose the level of results that will occur. This has been my point all along and it makes all the difference in the world.

I wish, and want and desire to hit a home run - I have this as a claim or privilege , to choose this as an action. Yet I cannot control the outcome. I may strike out ( the pitcher has desires too, no?), I may only get a single. I may hit a bird in the air that flies by and not even get on base . This is the whole point. You ARE entitled to select an action and to enjoy its fruits. Yet you cannot select the success/quality of the fruit that may come to you - this is His message.


Why does this make logical sense? We live in a world of action and reaction. Not being entitled to the result of an action suggest you should not digest your food - its an action. Do not walk ( its an action) or do not have a family, build a home, work, pray... these are actions.

Of what sense does it make for the world to be designed as such that you are offered 'free will' which is a fraction of His free will , then told you are not entitled to the fruit of the action you chose?


The issue is ( and will remain so) that being tied/bound/crave to the result keeps one in ignorance. Live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction is the message - which is moha, ignorance.

So, between verse 47 and 48 there should be a 47A verse, where Arjuna could of asked ' Kṛṣṇa how then do you expect me to do this?
how do I live not for the fruit and yet not be bound to inaction?'

Then Kṛṣṇa would say ahhh! good question ! - and here is your answer ( 48th verse) : yogasthaḥ kuru karmānī- established (or steadfast) in yoga ( union) perform actions (karma).

If one is steadfast in yoga, i.e. the Union of the Divine, possessed of the SELF - this fulfills the answer to the statement of verse 47.

By thus being established in yoga ( union) then there is a new set of laws that come into being. This now is called skill in action.
The results of your action no longer bind you , your actions are brought to the level of His actions. You have graduated out of being pushed and pulled about by the 3 guna-s ( verse 45 ) and the mind no longer is carried away by the turbulent senses ( verse 60) and an excess of desires.


To read the 47th verse without the surrounding verses, does not allow the Master of Yoga, Kṛṣṇa, to answer the perplexing question of verse 47 and all of Chapter 2. Chaper 2, verse 48 is the key cornerstone of spiritual life here on this good earth as viewed from the path of yoga.
This is to be understood - this is the diamond found in Chapter 2 . It offers the secret to a practical and spiritual life.


praṇām

[bhargavsai]

I have found some principles too, as many of us do. When I reflect upon the topic of Why our country has degenerated to this awful position, the answer I get is that we have lost our Self respect and another reason is:

"What we find funny today will become acceptable tomorrow and a necessity the day after"

I mean, today we laugh at sexual humor, slowly it will become acceptable and after sometime it will become a necessity. Then you will see people using sexual humor everywhere. This is what current Comedy shows are doing, they are portraying women as sexual objects and we many people laugh at that! What a shame!

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté bhargavsai


"What we find funny today will become acceptable tomorrow and a necessity the day after"


May I say this is brillant. There is a saying that parallels this also...
I think it's by SunTzu - He said, what was once your strength, becomes your weakness.

I see this again and again in people, businesses, etc.
That is, as in your statement and in SunTzu's, over time there are conversions. Strong become weak, rich become poor, independence becomes dependent. It's as if the fullness of both sides of the coin has to be experinced and take place.

Just my take - sure like to hear your side of the coin :) .

praṇām

[chandu_69]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

while I applaud every attempt to translate this verse,

That doesn't look like HIS OWN translation.


and we have reviewed this śloka multiple times, the key take-away is you cannot control the outcome of an action.Who constitutes the WE apart from you?, Yajvanji.

It appears you have some totally different take on Gita verses compared to Scholars of Various lineages.

May i know what Authority you have in translating the verse contrary to scholars of Various Sampradayas?.


Kṛṣṇa says the following in the Bhāgavad gītā (chapter 2, 47th śloka)
karmaṇi evādhikāras te
mā phalesu kadācana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr
mā te saṅgo'stv akarmaṇi
This says, you certainly (eva) have ādhikāra¹ (claim , right , privilege, control) of your (te or ti) karmaṇi (of your actions) , but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu) .Not entitled to Fruits of action.That is plain and simple.From where this control thing came from?


Just so there is no confusion You surely look like confused.Before we delve in to it further please inform us what authority you have to meddle with a simple sentence in GITA?.

Here are some references to various translations of the verse 2:47

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-02-46.html

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/gita2a.asp

http://acharya.iitm.ac.in/cgi-bin/show_gita_ch.pl?2_4


Here is the word to word breakdown of the verse from http://www.asitis.com/2/47.html


karmany evadhikaras te
ma phalesu kadacana
ma karma-phala-hetur bhur
ma te sango 'stv akarmani

SYNONYMS
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifkarmani--prescribed duties; eva--certainly; adhikarah--right; te--of you; ma--never; phalesu--in the fruits; kadacana--at any time; ma--never; karma-phala--in the result of the work; hetuh--cause; bhuh--become; ma--never; te--of you; sangah--attachment; astu--be there; akarmani--in not doing.
TRANSLATION
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifYou have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.

This is an immortal verse from Gita and every translator has an almost unanimous understanding of the verse.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté chandu_69


Who constitutes the WE apart from you?, Yajvanji.
It appears you have some totally different take on Gita verses compared to Scholars of Various lineages.

Not entitled to Fruits of action.That is plain and simple.From where this control thing came from? You surely look like confused.

Thank you for your note.
What constitutes 'we' - a collection of HDF members that have discussed this idea in the past can be found within these strings:
1. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4003&highlight=47th+%26%23347%3Bloka (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4003&highlight=47th+%26%23347%3Bloka)

2. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3942&highlight=47th

If you wish to see more, you can use the search feature here within HDF. I will assume your arrival to HDF in July of 2009, you may have missed several conversations on this subject and those tangential to the same ideas.

You offer the following:


Not entitled to Fruits of action.That is plain and simple.From where this control thing came from? You surely look like confused

ādhikāra अधिकार is defined as claim , right , privilege, control, In the masculine gender (puṃ-liṅga ) ādhikāra is defined as authority. Note again, this word is attached to the selection of actions, not their outcomes. From where does this definition come? The Sanscrit-English dictionary by Monier Williams to inspect and review each word.

Now I can see you are using ( as is vcindiana) the translation from svāmī prabhupāda who I respect. If this is your choice and view this as the final authority on this subject that is fine.

Now who also may see this verse as different from svāmī prabhupāda that is worth reviewing?

Abhinavagupata's commentary on the Bhāgavad gītā
Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī's commentary
Śrī Jñānadeva's Bhāvārṭa Dīpikā some call Jñāeśvarī ( his commentary the Bhāgavad gītā)
S.Rādhākṛṣṇan has a different view on this matter but worth a look
Are there more that I have used? Sure. I think the list above will suffice.If from your POV I looked confused, I leave that to your opinion. My approach is simple. Read multiple views, research, think, ponder, compare and contrast other translations and also keep close to my heart what I was taught. I think you may have called this 'mettling'. I have a different view on this matter and I will avoid any jalpa that may be ignited.

praṇām

[chandu_69]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté chandu_69

Namste Yajvan.



ādhikāra अधिकार is defined as claim , right , privilege, control, In the masculine gender (puṃ-liṅga ) ādhikāra is defined as authority. Note again, this word is attached to the selection of actions, not their outcomes. From where does this definition come? The Sanscrit-English dictionary by Monier Williams to inspect and review each word.when adhikara was used for actions and also fruits of action it can only mean RIGHT.
Looking up a dictionary and applying all possible meanings takes one to a blunder land.The words Kadacana and sangah precludes applying other meanings to Adhikara.


Now I can see you are using ( as is vcindiana) the translation from svāmī prabhupāda who I respect. If this is your choice and view this as the final authority on this subject that is fine.It appears you have deliberately chosen to ignore the translations that i gave links before i reproduced Prabhupada's word by word breakup.Go through those links.




Abhinavagupata's commentary on the Bhāgavad gītā
Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī's commentary
Śrī Jñānadeva's Bhāvārṭa Dīpikā some call Jñāeśvarī ( his commentary the Bhāgavad gītā)
S.Rādhākṛṣṇan has a different view on this matter but worth a look
Are there more that I have used? Sure. I think the list above will suffice.You will have to provide the word by word breakup of the translations you mentioned to substantiate what you wrote.



If from your POV I looked confused, I leave that to your opinion. My approach is simple.You can have any approach you wish but you cannot provide your own translation unless you can provide word by word breakup.One needs to have an authority to provide a translation.


I have a different view on this matter and I will avoid any jalpa that may be ignited.As i said give your VIEWS as long as you make it clear it is your view that you are articulating.

Don't provide translations of your own to change the meaning of the verses to suit your views.

You are already did this once in the same thread and you are doing it once again.I sincerely request you to refrain from doing this again.

[chandu_69]

What constitutes 'we' - a collection of HDF members that have discussed this idea in the past can be found within these strings:
1. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4003&highlight=47th+%26%23347%3Bloka

2. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3942&highlight=47th

Why were you avoiding the words Kadacana and sangah? (in the verse 2:47), while displaying your apparently impressive probability skills.

Speculate by all means but don't change the translations.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté chandu_69,
I am sure you mean well. Let me comment on just a few items , then for me, I am closing this chapter on this matter ( i.e. being engaged in this dialog).



You mention when adhikara was used for actions and also fruits of action it can only mean RIGHT. Looking up a dictionary and applying all possible meanings takes one to a blunder land.The words Kadacana and sangah precludes applying other meanings to Adhikara

You believe then it can only mean 'right'? Are you certain about that? Giving other definitions gives depth and breath to the meaning, not a narrow view.
Yet I see you only wish to offer one and only one view, yet there are multiple POV's... I will assume this is less complicated for you , and I am okay with that, and respect that. For me, one view is too too narrow.

you mention


Don't provide translations of your own to change the meaning of the verses to suit your views.
I was not aware that HDF has made you the monitor on what can and cannot be posted. I do not recall a vote that was taken . Did I miss this?:)

you mention

You will have to provide the word by word breakup of the translations you mentioned to substantiate what you wrote

This has been accomplished, but let me be clear on this - I am not looking for your approval, nor subscribe to your rules. If you are waiting for me to comply or recognize the arguments/positions you offer for compliance (or acceptance) as attractive or authoritative you will once again be disappointed.

you mention


It appears you have deliberately chosen to ignore the translations that i gave links before i reproduced Prabhupada's word by word breakup
I have read his work and translations many times. I have read his works starting in 1972. My jyotiṣ teacher's guru was svāmī prabhupāda in which he stayed with him for 6 to 7 years. His (svāmī prabhupāda's) knowledge came to me via my teacher. I respect his work. He has accomplished allot in this life, yet that does not infer I agree with his verbiage at all times. If his work resonates with you , then the universe rejoices.

you mention,

One needs to have an authority to provide a translation.
Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī's commentary on the Bhāgavad gītā ,
Chapter 2 verse 47, page 133:
You have control over action alone, never over its fruits. Live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction.

Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī's master - Svāmī Brahmānanda Sarasvatī, Śaṅkarācārya of Jyotirmath (from 1941-1953) ; Do you wish to know the lineage?

In closing, the conversation on this subject is closed for me, as it is missing the spirit of insight, sharing, probing and a better understanding of the knowledge. Thank you again for collecting your thoughts and offering them to me and to the HDF members.

I return to the original intent of this string... principles.

Roma locuta est - causa finita est

praṇām

[chandu_69]

You believe then it can only mean 'right'? Are you certain about that? Giving other definitions gives depth and breath to the meaning, not a narrow view.

I am certain because Giants like Madhavacharya gave that interpretation and that interpretation held good.

One may wish to expand the depth of their understanding but one cannot tinker with translation unless one displays the scholarship to translate the full sentence.


I was not aware that HDF has made you the monitor on what can and cannot be posted. I do not recall a vote that was taken . Did I miss this?

My words might convey that impression, but i am in noway authorised by HDF.


Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī's commentary on the Bhāgavad gītā ,
Chapter 2 verse 47, page 133:
You have control over action alone, never over its fruits. Live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction.
What u gave was not a commentary but a partial translation which i am objecting to.

i wrote

You will have to provide the word by word breakup of the translations you mentioned to substantiate what you wrote

you replied


This has been accomplished

Not at all.

let me repeat your reference in hdf:(http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=27496&postcount=5)
karmaṇi evādhikāras te
mā phalesu kadācana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr
mā te saṅgo'stv akarmaṇi
This says, you certainly (eva) have ādhikāra¹ (claim , right , privilege, control) of your (te or ti) karmaṇi¹ (of your actions) , but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu) .
The remaining words say in general live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction......
.......
......

The POV of that link became a direct quote from Sri krishna in this thread
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=31969&postcount=9

Your own words

"Kṛṣṇa says the following in the Bhāgavad gītā (chapter 2, 47th śloka)"

[bhargavsai]

Thank You Yajvan sir,

Since my childhood I always analyze things mentally, and whenever there was some effect then I would try to trace its cause through analyzing, I don't know if it is right or wrong to analyze, because some of my friends comment that I became too logical.

How did our country get trapped in this web of Western culture and western lifestyle is what always amazed me. The reason I found was we are repeatedly taught that All that is English is the best and ours(India's) is just an old ancient rubbish. My teachers used to say "English is the best language, what is the use of learning Hindi?"

I found out that We are being slowly injected with the western thought(which is good but poor compared to Indian thought), first we laugh at it, then we say its OK, Chalta hain, then we start liking it. This I found is how any new thing is introduced in our mind.

Look at it, 50 years ago we would have cursed if Indian women wore a Mini Skirt, now it is acceptable, tomorrow it may become a necessity.

(I am not against Women wearing skirt, It is free choice of anybody to wear anything. I was just giving an example)

Namaste sir

[harekrishna]

hariḥ oṁ


Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī's commentary on the Bhāgavad gītā ,
Chapter 2 verse 47, page 133:
You have control over action alone, never over its fruits. Live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction.

Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī's master - Svāmī Brahmānanda Sarasvatī, Śaṅkarācārya of Jyotirmath (from 1941-1953) ; Do you wish to know the lineage?


Namaste!
This verse is a timeless one. Here is a look at the first verse, (courtesy Swami Tapasyanand of Ramkrishna Math)
कर्मणि (For action) एव (only) अधिकारः (right) ते (you) , मा (never) फलेषु (for the fruits) कदाचन (ever)।
You have right for the action only, never ever for the fruits.
Yajvan jee's translation is closer to my understanding. Logically, if we had the right for the results, we would get the desired results everytime!
That is why right in the next verse, Lord Krishna says not to worry about attachments to the result of the action, but be steadfast in Yoga. One does not have the guarantee of the actions.
Here is a take from this - "There are no failures in life, only lessons" Each fruit of an action is a lesson learnt (from the Universe).
HariH Om!
Hare Krishna

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté harekrishna



Namaste!
This verse is a timeless one. Here is a look at the first verse, (courtesy Swami Tapasyanand of Ramkrishna Math)
कर्मणि (For action) एव (only) अधिकारः (right) ते (you) , मा (never) फलेषु (for the fruits) कदाचन (ever)।
You have right for the action only, never ever for the fruits.
Yajvan jee's translation is closer to my understanding. Logically, if we had the right for the results, we would get the desired results everytime!
That is why right in the next verse, Lord Krishna says not to worry about attachments to the result of the action, but be steadfast in Yoga. One does not have the guarantee of the actions.
Here is a take from this - "There are no failures in life, only lessons" Each fruit of an action is a lesson learnt (from the Universe).
HariH Om! Hare Krishna


... beautiful


praṇām

[vcindiana]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


praṇām


Dear Yaj: Thank you for your response. Before I comment on your post my thoughts went to the meaning of "eva adhikar".

"You certainly have (claim, right, privilege, control) of your (Te or ti) , but never or not of its fruits"

In this verse I find the first words “eva adhikar” equally very important and these are not casually spoken. As per these words each one of us has an unlimited freedom in our thinking and actions regardless of the fruit of the actions. We can praise or even criticize this very verse. One certainly (eva) has all the right to comment and interpret the way one sees BG. One has a choice in his/her action. One has full control on his/her action. One has the right to accept or discard all the beliefs, dogmas, rituals. Ideals, concepts, priests, gurus etc...

This makes me wonder the purpose of Chapter one in BG where detailed reasons given by Arjuna not to fight the war. Why does he mention superstitions, Karmic effects of sin in destroying family values and traditions, corruption of women, intermixture of castes, fall of dead ancestors without Shraddas and tarpans etc. I sense Arjuna was caught up with borrowed ideas and did not have free a mind.

I find this is an extraordinary RISK on the part of God Krishna giving such freedom to human beings to think/act. Being the most powerful, He could have curtailed some of our actions to keep us in the “groove”. It is my take that only free mind can discover new things and grow.

I do realize these words were spoken in the context of the following words and the next verse, but that does not stop me from thinking the power of freedom we humans enjoy in the name of God. I know there is a purpose in such "GOD" given freedom.

All I can say is Thank you Krishna in my deepest gratitude.

Love.........VC

[atanu]

hariḥ oṁ

Mahaṛṣi Mahesh Yogī's commentary on the Bhāgavad gītā ,
Chapter 2 verse 47, page 133:
You have control over action alone, never over its fruits. Live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction.



Namaste Yajvan ji,
:iagree:

What right we can have over the work that we do? Was anyone born with right to do a particular work of choice? Or is all plum jobs available for all?


But we do have right to do or we do have control over how we do our alloted work. Do we do the alloted work seeking the fruits for oneself or we do the alloted work as worship towards Vishnu-Agni stream?

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

In this verse I find the first words “eva adhikar” equally very important and these are not casually spoken. As per these words each one of us has an unlimited freedom in our thinking and actions regardless of the fruit of the actions.

Namaste VC,

How contradictory. Do you ever think why then Shri Krishna said "Arjuna, whether you wish or not, your gunas will impel you to fight"?

The fruit of ONE ACTION is another karma going into ripeness. Allocation of such a fruit as future work is as per the will of Ishwara. One does not have unlimited right to action and thoughts. One only has the control over how and in what mode -- with selfish motives or as worship of sarva -- one will perform the alloted tasks.

Total freedom is available only to Jivan Muktas.


IMO, what you and some others exhibit is truly the christian mentality of stating one's belief as the truth, without taking the other verses into consideration.

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté atanu



Total freedom is available only to Jivan Muktas.


brilliant.... and this is svātantrya स्वातन्त्र्य.

praṇām

[vcindiana]

Namaste VC,

How contradictory.
Total freedom is available only to Jivan Muktas.

IMO, what you and some others exhibit is truly the christian mentality of stating one's belief as the truth, without taking the other verses into consideration.

Om Namah Shivaya

Dear Atanu:

With due respect I disagree with you in a different sense. My observation is that total freedom is available to every one of us. (If there is some thing called God, there cannot be only a few "Holy" are given the freedom. )
But only so called Jivan Mukta who is IDEAL knows what real freedom is and he/she also perhaps savors it much.

I consider freedom is True to oneself and it lies in the understanding what one is from moment to moment, not trying to become something different and not just following an authority, dogma or some tradition. That is ideal not real. I do not know about you, I find it difficult to be like that consistently. Whether in my personal life or in my sailing experience I find it impossible to keep the telltales perfectly parallel all the time.

Here I thank Yaj for his post 12 where he highlights the importance of verse 48. In Yoga or union with divine I try to fully become aware of my short comings. My actions get lighter. It is good that way because it teaches me humility.

I am sorry you find my post laced with Christianity, but I am no Christian.

Love..............VC

[atanu]

Dear Atanu:

With due respect I disagree with you in a different sense. My observation is that total freedom is available to every one of us. (If there is some thing called God, there cannot be only a few "Holy" are given the freedom. )


Dear VC,

That despite "Arjuna, whether you wish or not, your gunas will impel you to fight"? Like the Bourneville chocolate has to be earned, the total freedom is earned. It is true that total freedom is actually available to every one of us, but it is not at all evident since mind and desires are driven by guna.

Om Namah Shivaya

[sunyata07]

Namaste,

Yajvan, as usual you have something very interesting to share with the forum. Those principles you mentioned in your post are all useful, and I have to say I have experienced all of them at one point and am very much in agreement that there is much truth in these simple life lessons, particularly the one you mentioned about how "you become what you think". This idea about how your thoughts can lead to your words, actions, and so on (The quote on my sig sums it up quite nicely) has definitely been something I have observed to be very true of late.

One principle I have found true, and quite beneficial in living life is how people don't know what they have until they don't have it anymore. Many people often find they don't appreciate things until they find they are gone forever and pine for them. I think this "I don't want what I haven't already got" attitude is a great way to show more gratitude towards the things and people in your life. Whether it be your childhood, your family and friends you sometimes take for granted; or something more fundamentally basic like food, clothes and a roof over your head, I think it's important to feel gratitude in your life and consider yourself blessed to be able to feel this gratitude. You could think locally, and even globally when you see how beautiful our planet is, and how wonderful and magical the natural world is. Every day is precious. Every moment of being alive and apart of this universe should be treasured.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté sunyata,



Namaste,

One principle I have found true, and quite beneficial in living life is how people don't know what they have until they don't have it anymore.

Thank you for your post... yes, I too must agree with your assessment. I see this often in the USA. Most people are used to abundence. When this is removed then there is sobbing and many say, how can this happen, why did it happen to me?

For some reason loss is more impactful then gain, or makes a bigger impression ( vāsanā¹ ). To this, one adds more stress and more attachment - as the notion then goes ' I want what I lost back ' .

praṇām

words
vāsanā वासना the impression of anything remaining in the mind; some say the present consciousness of past perceptions , knowledge derived from memory. Not to be confused with vasana वसन - cloth , clothes , dress , garment , apparel , attire.

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste Yajvan et al:

I think I misunderstood the topic. The word 'found' to me doesn't mean found within the scriptures, but rather found within yourself. It is my understanding that the scriptures are contained within. So which comes first, a scriptural reading of a principle, or a self-discovery of a principle. To me, the second is of far greater importance. But I digress.

Another principle, or in this case an error in thought process, that I have discovered over and over again is that the mind tends to believe that its temporal state is permanent. Once depressed, always depressed?

The first time this really hit me was when I was a school counsellor, still young and stupid. A group or a pair of girls all in a big frenzy would be having friendship problems, come knock on my door in the morning, and say "We really NEED to talk to you. Such and such did this or that or said this or that." I'd say, "I have a bit of other work to do. I'll come and pull you out of class first chance I get." Then I'd put some planning into how to approach the big deal. Maybe get a neutral classmate in on it or something. So I'd go and pick them up 20 minutes later. When they'd get to the hallway, there would be smiles all around and one of them would say. "It's all right now."

Eventually I learned to say, "Let's wait a day. if you're still having problems then, we'll talk about it."

Now this is true not just in this life, but also over many lives. I re realised this this morning when reading the thread about whether or not the male gender is better for moksha?

Once a man, always a man? So not just in this life, but over the entire time span of a soul's evolution, from emanation to merging back.

Aum Namasivaya

[vcindiana]

One of the principles I have found reading BG:

Stick to my Swadharma, some thing that was given through Birth (DNA if some one wants to call it) natural ability and talent, then my schooling, education, training and experience all put together. (Arjuna is a great example, born to Kshatriya, was raised watching fellow Kshatriyas and all the tools of the trade. He was trained as Kshatriya and developed his talents as Kshatriya. Krishna though powerful did not want to make him a Sanyasi.

I am unique like each one of us and it is my purpose in this life to use my own Swadharma to its best. It is very tempting to copy some one else’s Dharma just to “look good” in the eyes of others. It would very frustrating to copy or follow some other’s vocation.

Love..............VC

[rkpande]

in my experience one gets what one deserves, the karmic dispensation.

[vcindiana]

The verse in MB as quoted by the article in DH (Thread: The wisdom of dharma - Deccan Herald by HDFNewsBot) adds more to my learning.

In my Swadharma it is not good to violate/criticize another’s Dharma.

Love.............VC

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté EM ( et.al)


Namaste Yajvan et al:

I think I misunderstood the topic. The word 'found' to me doesn't mean found within the scriptures, but rather found within yourself. It is my understanding that the scriptures are contained within. So which comes first, a scriptural reading of a principle, or a self-discovery of a principle. To me, the second is of far greater importance. But I digress.
Aum Namasivaya

I think you have seen the topic clearly; others may have applied a different view on the subject, yet overall this string has been useful and has merit... I thank all that chose to contribute and hope more share their insights.

That said, I thought to add another principle I found to be true. I have mentioned it before in the past. Some have scratched their heads on this idea: Painted cakes do not satisfy hunger.

These words came from Baba Rām Das' guru, Neem Karoli Baba . If you ( the reader) are not familiar with this book Be Here Now ¹ , IMHO it is worth the time and effort to read.


So , what does it (Painted cakes do not satisfy hunger) mean? It says, talking does not = doing. We can talk all day about all the paths and methods to touch the Divine, yet if one does not pursue it, the conversation is academic. One may be hungry, but looking at a painted cake on a bill board will not fill one's stomach.

Like that, we live in a world of action. It is by action that one achieves. It is by knowledge that one acts. So, knowledge and action are intimately connected. Yet knowledge without action, where is the value? But action binds yajvan! action brings more actions and these in turn bind one to cause and effect.
Yes, this is true. That is why the wisdom Kṛṣṇa offers is so valuable ( the Bhāgavad gītā 48th verse ) : yogasthaḥ kuru karmānī- established (or steadfast) in yoga ( union) perform actions (karma).

This is called skill in action - then actions do not bind. This is the highest knowledge one can apply for a practical life. This fulfills the instruction given to Baba Rām Das' from his guru, and that is Be Here Now. Every moment is 'now'. One is absorbed in the present tense, 'now'. Life becomes a succession of nows, as one is absorbed in the Union of the Divine - there is only now.

praṇām

references
Be Here Now - one site : http://www.yogalifestyle.com/BkBeRD.htm

http://www.yogalifestyle.com/images/BeHereNowMD.jpg (http://www.yogalifestyle.com/images/BeHereNowLG.jpg)

[Eastern Mind]

Vanakkam souls:
My apologies if this quote was on here, and I'm just repeatingit. I forget who it was attributed to but it follows Yajvan's thoughts.

"The smallest good deed is greater than the largest good intention."

Aum Namasivaya

[atanu]

Agreeing to all the principles stated thus far, i suggest the following, which perhaps may be topical for me and few others:

Bliss is to give up all conceit notions wrongly associated with the "I".

(This is adapted from Buddha, but experienced afresh).

Om Namah Shivaya

[devotee]

Let me share some of mine :

I have realised :

1. That degree of "Evenness of mind" ( i.e. full control on our nerves irrespective of stimulations & environment) is the real sign of spiritual progress.

2. That all hungers/desires have their roots in mind. To control the organs I must control my mind. Once the mind's connection is broken out from an organ, it can't disturb me any more.

3. That meditation & discrimination bring evenness of mind.

4. That it helps me by reminding myself repeatedly that my body is not "I" ( we are only temporarily together) and everyone around me, even my adversaries if any, in essence, is God Himself.

OM

[vcindiana]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté EM ( et.al)

..... the wisdom Kṛṣṇa offers is so valuable ( the Bhāgavad gītā 48th verse ) : yogasthaḥ kuru karmānī- established (or steadfast) in yoga ( union) perform actions (karma).

This is called skill in action -




Dear Yaj,

Please explain to me these words in practical terms. All actions need to be skilled? You mean these are voluntary actions unlike involuntary spontaneous breathing or heart beating? Several so called Geeta authorities lump all actions the same.

You mention steadfast in Yoga, does that mean to be disciplined oneself in one’s activities? Discipline sounds to me that it is attached and it is not free.

Love.........VC

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté VC



Please explain to me these words in practical terms. All actions need to be skilled? You mean these are voluntary actions unlike involuntary spontaneous breathing or heart beating? Several so called Geeta authorities lump all actions the same.

You mention steadfast in Yoga, does that mean to be disciplined oneself in one’s activities? Discipline sounds to me that it is attached and it is not free.

Before answering, please read (contemplate) the following HDF Posts :
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=24210&postcount=3 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=24210&postcount=3)

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=28731&postcount=3 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=28731&postcount=3)

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=28833&postcount=5 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=28833&postcount=5)
Once these are read, reviewed, pondered, let me know and then we can address 'skill in action' , steadfast, etc.

[proudhindu]

Pranaam Yajvan,

If i am not mistaken,It appears you have had saintly company most of your life and your posts show that.

if you dont mind i would like to query/examine your thought.



I have been introduced to a few principles over the years that I found hold true. ...

The world is as you are.That is, when you are happy or dull , the world takes on that appearance also. This is why when a person becomes liberated 'all is right with the world' as there are no issues occurring internally, peace and happiness is found within and without.

I heard and read this opinion several times but i am yet to find a person who can say this worked for them.May be i havent met too many saintly persons with lots of people to look after them.

You may get up in the morning with High energy and blissful state of mind , do Puja and when you go out to the world to engage in your wordly work you will have to face the realities of world.

Can one remain happy and peacefull when faced with a rioting mob, got your vehicle burned to char and a possibilty that your near and dear are going to be harmed?.

What will be your thoughts, God forbid, if you are in such a situation?.



When one is healthy and bright, then many challenges become opportunities. Yet if one is dull, lethargic and in general unbalanced, the sky is always falling on him or her and the universe is seen as a foe.

This largely agree with my personal experience.But there are times when the tunnel of darkness appears to be endless before light shine.


What you put your attention on grows stronger in your life or [I] what you think you become If one chooses uplifting subjects and conversations, that grows in one's life.

Could you please expand on this.


What you 'eat' you become.Eating here includes all the senses, not just the tongue. What we watch, read, associate with, are all inputs to the mind and to its processing and available to thinking and choices. Over time you reflect what you eat.

If i am a police man and handle crooks and thugs all the time will i become one?.if my duty as a policeman requires me to study criminal mind and attitude would i become a criminal?.Comes in to mind Sthitha pragnya from Gita.I would love to hear your opinion on this particualr point more than anything else.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté proudhindu




If i am not mistaken,It appears you have had saintly company most of your life and your posts show that. if you dont mind i would like to query/examine your thought.

I heard and read this opinion several times but i am yet to find a person who can say this worked for them.May be i havent met too many saintly persons with lots of people to look after them.

You may get up in the morning with High energy and blissful state of mind , do Puja and when you go out to the world to engage in your wordly work you will have to face the realities of world.

Can one remain happy and peacefull when faced with a rioting mob, got your vehicle burned to char and a possibilty that your near and dear are going to be harmed?.

What will be your thoughts, God forbid, if you are in such a situation?.

This largely agree with my personal experience.But there are times when the tunnel of darkness appears to be endless before light shine.

Could you please expand on this.

If i am a police man and handle crooks and thugs all the time will i become one?.if my duty as a policeman requires me to study criminal mind and attitude would i become a criminal?.Comes in to mind Sthitha pragnya from Gita.I would love to hear your opinion on this particualr point more than anything else.

Your questions are very practical. Let me offer a few things. I have studied all my life. Many things I got ( understood) , many I did not get till I started to mature overall - via sādhana. My 'company' was via my various teachers, and via the authors I read. 'Guru' has come all different ways guru & teaching , guru for dikśa, for learning, etc. this has been my blessing in this life.

Facing the realities of the world that you offer in your post can be done in various ways. One way is in ignorance - where the SELF (ātman) and the body are experienced as the same. In this condition everything affects one deeply.

Another way is when one is possessed of the SELF - then silence is one's anchor, and things happen but one's true nature is never shaken, one is anchored to that peace, to that stability of Silence of within. Hence things happening 'outside' are , well outside and do not touch the depths of the silence within. That is, you associate your state of being with the silence.

One example I have heard was offered by svāmī Lakṣman-jū. Let me improvise just a bit on the example, but the idea is exactly the same. Let's say you are possessed of the SELF and experience this silence all the time. Yet some one comes to you and says , Proudhindu, your car is on fire! If one were not possessed of the SELF, there is that attached feeling to the car, that which is mine is now lost, and one gets all upset, swells with emotion, etc. Yet, says svāmī Lakṣman-jū,
the person possessed of the SELF experiences that information that is given as if it were just individual collection of letters:
Y_O_U_R C_A_R I_S O_N F_I_R_E_!

One is not swept up by any whoosh of emotion because everything now has the SELF-referral quality to it. You are not identifying with the world of actions ( of big, small, fires, deaths, cars, fights, smell, war) but the world now is viewed from the stability of silence - that is in you, that is balanced.
Another simple example... Lets say you are well rested, calm, and without any chores to accomplish, yet alert, clear and with no troubles - alls well, life is good. A person very calmly walks up to you and says hello you to you in a language you never heard before. You are not threatened because you are calm, and the person addressing you is also calm, collected, of good spirit and there is no angst or anger offered in his body language , facial expression or tone of voice.
What you then here is just a collection of sounds, in a string, with no meaning TA_MA_BA_LA_KA, NO_CHA_KRA_ME_SO_BE.
Where is there angst or fright, or concern ? Yet this person could be saying the same thing - Proudhindu, your car is on fire.

Like that, how one experiences the world from that state of Being makes all the difference in the world.


You take care of your burning car. But the stress, emotional turmoil , grief, etc. is no longer part of the equation. One now operates from a balanced point of view , without the stigma of being tossed and turned like a ship in storm on the ocean.


That is why this wisdom is so practical to unfold. Now, it is very important to say, this is not a mood, a positive mental attitude, it is a level of Being that is cultured over time, and occurs within ones Being, one's physiology and mind.


praṇām

[proudhindu]

Pranaam Yajvan



Yet some one comes to you and says , Proudhindu, your car is on fire! If one were not possessed of the SELF, there is that attached feeling to the car, that which is mine is now lost, and one gets all upset, swells with emotion, etc

It is not about Handlimg emotions regarding loss of Car but how do you go about tackling the situation.

The example of car is about being under attack.If i stay in the car or anywhere near the attack site, me and my family members will be done to death.

The thoughts that eventually come to my mind is may be i should know how to defend myself.Buy a gun, take some shooting lessons etc...

Will such thoughts take me away from realising God?.

Did the Kashmiri saints teach about preparing for Self Defence?.

Did somebody like Swami Lakshman jhoo said anything about pursuit of wealth(Artha).

After all, the society has to earn wealth and maintain defence forces to enable Saints to flourish and help the ordinary people realise god.

We will discuss about the policaman case in depth later on

[sm78]

Pranaam Yajvan




It is not about Handlimg emotions regarding loss of Car but how do you go about tackling the situation.

The example of car is about being under attack.If i stay in the car or anywhere near the attack site, me and my family members will be done to death.

The thoughts that eventually come to my mind is may be i should know how to defend myself.Buy a gun, take some shooting lessons etc...

Will such thoughts take me away from realising God?.

Did the Kashmiri saints teach about preparing for Self Defence?.

Did somebody like Swami Lakshman jhoo said anything about pursuit of wealth(Artha).

After all, the society has to earn wealth and maintain defence forces to enable Saints to flourish and help the ordinary people realise god.

We will discuss about the policaman case in depth later on

Dear proudhindu,

There are various philosophies and religions within what we call Hindu, and one has to adopt the one which ties up and answers the doubt we face about our existence in this world.

Your position and problems were and are mine own, the complete and utter lack of proper reconciliation between the world we see and live in and the world we want to be in.

I have found solace in a particular world view, but I am not here to sell doctrines. But with each day of better knowledge of scriptures, it seems to me that this inability to reconcile our internal ideals with the external world in a honest manner does not go back far in history. If you are bold enough to be able to set yourself free from the personas that cloud the gateway to our religion (however fantastic be their life history or proof of their self knowledge), and start reading the original sources, you will not find any dichotomy or any inability to appreciate the problems this world presents before us.

I know it is easy to say with a few pegs of whiskey down the throat that world is how we see it, yet any genuine seeking for truth starts when we don't find the world to be what we expected it to be.

All our so called spiritual ideals and ideals of self perfection are an attempt to get pass this imperfection that have been thrust opon us on our birth, with which we are not at all happy. In fact they exist only in relation to this world. So when we loose focus of this basic problem in our attempt to
provide solutions, it is indeed unfortunate.

Knowledge of self which alone can wipe out all the imperfect cannot come by pretending to be pure and perfect, when by very birth in this human world, we are not.

Various people through the ages approached this problem in various ways, none of them totally dispensed with the practicality of the world. Yet some are less practical than others...for me the most orthodox view within hinduism seems to understand the difficulties of this world with best insight, many others loose the focus to the very problem that motivated them to seek an answer. With the advent of buddhism and heterodox cults, liberation became the prime focus of life ~ while prior to that it was never a serious object of persuit-for it can't.

While I don't find anything good or worthwhile with buddhism, the heterodox cults have provided us with many good things including the entire science of self purification. Their worldview is also not impractical, yet their development was halted midway when the catastrophic moslem attack played havoc with the native way of life and its development in this land.

So my advice to you would be start practicing and studying original hinduism and not get carried away by generalizations of the modern minds. When in doubt refer to the Gita and the story of bharata...for it is the first and greatest attempt to synthecize divergent theories of self-knowledge into one coherent thread without ever loosing sight of the main problem we face in our human existence~that of the world and its horrors.

It is the true triumph of indic thought, that needs to be repeated many more times.


Good luck.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté

sm78 writes,


Knowledge of self which alone can wipe out all the imperfect cannot come by pretending to be pure and perfect, when by very birth in this human world, we are not.

Your clarity on this matter is impressive.

proudhindu writes,

It is not about Handlimg emotions regarding loss of Car but how do you go about tackling the situation.
I now see your point and perhaps I was too casual in answering it in my last post. But before I go further my example was not of being under attack, that was not my intent.
Yet there are several questions you also bring up. Let me finish the first part, of the car on fire and how one would then handle it. It would be handled in a fair and balanced way - without angst and/or grief. That was my point to be made - life's activites would no longer overshadow the 'balance of SELF' one would experience.

you mention,

The thoughts that eventually come to my mind is may be i should know how to defend myself. Buy a gun, take some shooting lessons etc...
Will such thoughts take me away from realising God?

This I do not have an immediate answer for - but the intent to defend suggests the notion of being threatened... this the wise have talked about. This ties into your question,

...saints teach about preparing for Self Defence?
This discussion they offered may not be in the manner you may be thinking of...

My teacher spoke directly on this by saying the best defense is never making enemies. He said that comes by the infusion of sattva into one's life and one's community. He said by creating a level of sattva, that even the notion of fear, or rebellion or negitive behavior would not even enter into one's mind or others minds.
Who else says this? Patañjali’s yogadarśana, 2nd chapter , 35th sūtra says the following: As the yogin becomes established in non-injury (ahiṁsā), all beings coming near him cease to be hostile.
And svāmī Lakṣman-jū also reviews this - he says, one who maintains this discipline of non-violence (ahiṁsā) on the level of body, mind, and soul influences even natural enemies by his presence - such is his vibrating power. Within the presence of this person immersed in that sattva, enemies are harmless to each other and to the yogin.Regarding wealth - my teacher was in favor of abundance. I too am in favor of abundance + balance + giving. The question is, what is true wealth? What is binding and what adds to one's overall spiritual progress? We can talk of this at a later time as it derails the original posts and questions contained herein.

praṇām

[proudhindu]

Pranaam Yajvan,


Yet there are several questions you also bring up. Let me finish the first part, of the car on fire and how one would then handle it. It would be handled in a fair and balanced way - without angst and/or grief.

That is true.The priority at that point of time was to be safe and ensure safety of those who are with me.Thoughts of preparing for future attacks comes later.


That was my point to be made - life's activites would no longer overshadow the 'balance of SELF' one would experience.

I am afraid i dont understand what you are tryimg to convey here.Life's activities indeed effect me.I am not living in a protected place not to be bothered about life's activities.This is true for most of the people in this world.


This I do not have an immediate answer for - but the intent to defend suggests the notion of being threatened

The attack is real.This is not a notion.


this the wise have talked about. This ties into your question,This discussion they offered may not be in the manner you may be thinking ofMy teacher spoke directly on this by saying the best defense is never making enemies. He said that comes by the infusion of sattva into one's life and one's community. He said by creating a level of sattva, that even the notion of fear, or rebellion or negitive behavior would not even enter into one's mind or others minds.

Wel, i didnt make enemies of the people who are out to destroy and kill anything in their sight.

The Indians didnt make enemies out of Muslim Arabs or Muslim Mongols.But that didnt stop them from Invading Indian penisnsula kill people, enslave women and children.

I would suggest you to read
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/History_of_Jihad_Against_the_Hindus

Particularly the paragraph

"Fierce and persistent Hindu resistance to the Islamic Jihad prevented the complete Islamization of India"







Who else says this? Patañjali’s yogadarśana, 2nd chapter , 35th sūtra says the following: As the yogin becomes established in non-injury (ahiṁsā), all beings coming near him cease to be hostile.And svāmī Lakṣman-jū also reviews this - he says, one who maintains this discipline of non-violence (ahiṁsā) on the level of body, mind, and soul influences even natural enemies by his presence - such is his vibrating power. Within the presence of this person immersed in that sattva, enemies are harmless to each other and to the yogin.

May be the women captured and sold by jihadis in slave markets didnt practice yoga.Let me think about this.


Regarding wealth - my teacher was in favor of abundance. I too am in favor of abundance + balance + giving.

Now, that is something i can relate to.:)

[proudhindu]

Patañjali’s yogadarśana, 2nd chapter , 35th sūtra says the following: As the yogin becomes established in non-injury (ahiṁsā), all beings coming near him cease to be hostile.

Perhaps there is more than this yoga has to offer.

Swami Ramdev is training Indian army and crpf personnel to beat stress.

The Us marines are training with Yoga instructors to beat stress and handle injuries.

http://www.ameriforce.net/PDF/AF2006_Fall/006-008_AFmagyoga-206.pdf

“Military units need everything yoga has to offer because yoga is designed to clear the blockages in our personalities,” Saraswati wrote in a recent Yoga Magazine article. “Military personnel need to be strong-minded, confident and brave"

[proudhindu]

Dear proudhindu,

There are various philosophies and religions within what we call Hindu, and one has to adopt the one which ties up and answers the doubt we face about our existence in this world.
....

Well said, Sm Ji.


It is the true triumph of indic thought, that needs to be repeated many more times.

:goodpost:

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté proudhindu

you wrote,

Can one remain happy and peacefull when faced with a rioting mob, got your vehicle burned to char and a possibilty that your near and dear are going to be harmed?.
What will be your thoughts, God forbid, if you are in such a situation?.


I did not comprehend that this was an actual life experience for you i.e.
The attack is real.This is not a notion.
I was reading your post as 'what if this occurred' - not as it indeed occurred. Now I see your POV.

you write,


I am afraid i dont understand what you are tryimg to convey here.Life's activities indeed effect me.I am not living in a protected place not to be bothered about life's activities.This is true for most of the people in this world.

The point i wished to offer was based upon what indeed occurs in life, but how a realized soul would experience it. You also mention,

Perhaps there is more than this yoga has to offer.Swami Ramdev is training Indian army and crpf personnel to beat stress. The Us marines are training with Yoga instructors to beat stress and handle injuries
This is the natural bi-product of ones meditation - throwing off stress. It is the stress in the nervous system that overshadows its normal functioning. These stresses are impressions that are embedded into the 'village of the senses' as my teacher called it ( the nervous system) that overshadows its optimal functioning... Excessive impressions - they do not have to always be negative impressions, but they are impressions none the less that leave a 'dent'.

you mention

Wel, i didnt make enemies of the people who are out to destroy and kill anything in their sight.
I have no answer and I am of little help - because I am not a part of the situation, I can add little value to the solution and only offered what the wise have suggested from the level of yoga and yama and niyama. This was written about at these HDF posts:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2956
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2970

I will review what you have offered as reading.

praṇām

[proudhindu]

I did not comprehend that this was an actual life experience for you i.e.
I was reading your post as 'what if this occurred' - not as it indeed occurred. Now I see your POV.



I was describing a REAL life situation.

[proudhindu]

With my limited understanding i did find some solutions from Gita.

To the question do i get liberated if i am not a saint? What if i am a policeman?

I find an answer in Bhagavadgita:

9:32 For those who take refuge in Me, O Partha (Arjuna), though they are lowly born, women, Vaisyas, as well as Sudras, they also attain to the highest goal.

How should i conduct myself as a policeman if that involves overpowering people and possibly killing them;
I find this:

(2:47) To action alone hast thou a right and never at all to its fruits; let not the fruits of action be thy motive; neither let there be in thee any attachment to inaction.

(2:48) Fixed in yoga, do thy work, O Arjuna, abandoning attachment, with an even mind in success and failure, for evenness of mind is called yoga.

(2:49) Far inferior indeed is mere action to the discipline of intelligence (buddhiyoga), O Ariuna, seek refuge in intelligence. Pitiful are those who seek for the fruits (of their action).

(2:50) One who has yoked his intelligence (with the Divine) (or is established in his intelligence) casts away even here both good and evil. Therefore strive for yoga, yoga is skill in action.

4.16 Even the wise ones are confused about what is action and what is inaction. Therefore, I shall clearly explain what is action, knowing that one shall be liberated from the evil of birth and death

4.17 The true nature of action is very difficult to understand. Therefore, one should know the nature of attached action, the nature of detached action, and also the nature of forbidden action.


As a policeman do i incur sin by killing people? I find this

4.20 The one who has abandoned selfish attachment to the fruits of work, and remains ever content and dependent on no one but God, such a person though engaged in activity does nothing at all, and incurs no Karmic reaction.



Pranaam.

[atanu]

(2:48) Fixed in yoga, do thy work, O Arjuna, abandoning attachment, with an even mind in success and failure, for evenness of mind is called yoga.



Namaste proudhindu,

That is the summit of instruction, at least for me. Thank you for bringing it up here. At the same time, I think the verse, known intellectually, is useless and may be hypocrisy at best. A yogi does not differentiate between a Brahmana and a Dog. He sees Lord within himself and himself within the Lord. You may read other qualities of a stitha prajna yogi.

If you read those fully, then I think, the above verse will mean the same as what yajvan ji has been saying. All these questions arise because we have the very deep notion that discrete particulate beings are the true beings. Actually, it is the unseen all pervading Vishnu that is the true being. There is a wide difference in ignorant view of world and jnana view of world.

That is my view. YMMV.

If we persist that as we were born due to ignorance, so we should act as per that view alone, isn't it like cutting the very branch of a tree on which one is sitting?

Om Namah Shivaya

[proudhindu]

post 50:

This is the natural bi-product of ones meditation - throwing off stress

I beg to differ on this point.

The practical benefits of meditation/Yoga are the Main product for most of the people.Yoga benefits the agricultural laborer in improving his flexibility, for the Finance executive it helps to calm nerves so that he can sleep better, for a computer programme it helps to beat the stress etc.

Yoga also helps the Ascetics living a secluded life, to survive on meagre food, face heat and cold and yet continue with their tapasya.

The practical benefits of Yoga helps people in increasing their productivity, leading healthier lifes thus allowing them to concentrate on The divine.

The practical health benefits of Yoga may not matter much to the modern day ascetics who had no problems finding food on their table, a shelter, etc.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté proudhindu



I beg to differ on this point.

The practical benefits of meditation/Yoga are the Main product for most of the people.Yoga benefits the agricultural laborer in improving his flexibility, for the Finance executive it helps to calm nerves so that he can sleep better, for a computer programme it helps to beat the stress etc.

Yoga also helps the Ascetics living a secluded life, to survive on meagre food, face heat and cold and yet continue with their tapasya.

The practical benefits of Yoga helps people in increasing their productivity, leading healthier lifes thus allowing them to concentrate on The divine.

The practical health benefits of Yoga may not matter much to the modern day ascetics who had no problems finding food on their table, a shelter, etc.

You are always welcome to differ... Flexibility, calm the nerves , increase productivity - yes I agree. I do not see how this is different then removing the impediments to one's calmness, flexibility, health - removing stress compliments ( not differs) in these qualities. If the words are in the way, then let me offer a better word then the reduction of stress. Perhaps the normal and improved functioning of the nervous system.
By this improvement, one's flexibility, calmness, etc. I am fine with this. Overall, the individual and society benefit from this meditative approach.

You mention 'what if I am a policeman' before I approach the question and avoid my last mistake, are you in fact a policeman?

praṇām

[kd gupta]

With my limited understanding i did find some solutions from Gita.

To the question do i get liberated if i am not a saint? What if i am a policeman?

I find an answer in Bhagavadgita:

9:32 For those who take refuge in Me, O Partha (Arjuna), though they are lowly born, women, Vaisyas, as well as Sudras, they also attain to the highest goal.

How should i conduct myself as a policeman if that involves overpowering people and possibly killing them;
I find this:

(2:47) To action alone hast thou a right and never at all to its fruits; let not the fruits of action be thy motive; neither let there be in thee any attachment to inaction.

(2:48) Fixed in yoga, do thy work, O Arjuna, abandoning attachment, with an even mind in success and failure, for evenness of mind is called yoga.

(2:49) Far inferior indeed is mere action to the discipline of intelligence (buddhiyoga), O Ariuna, seek refuge in intelligence. Pitiful are those who seek for the fruits (of their action).

(2:50) One who has yoked his intelligence (with the Divine) (or is established in his intelligence) casts away even here both good and evil. Therefore strive for yoga, yoga is skill in action.

4.16 Even the wise ones are confused about what is action and what is inaction. Therefore, I shall clearly explain what is action, knowing that one shall be liberated from the evil of birth and death

4.17 The true nature of action is very difficult to understand. Therefore, one should know the nature of attached action, the nature of detached action, and also the nature of forbidden action.


As a policeman do i incur sin by killing people? I find this

4.20 The one who has abandoned selfish attachment to the fruits of work, and remains ever content and dependent on no one but God, such a person though engaged in activity does nothing at all, and incurs no Karmic reaction.



Pranaam.

Namaste Proudhinduji
Yes, you incur sin, because you are following your boss's order and not your open mind. You incur sin because you are being paid for.
Sorry, but it is a fact.

[atanu]

There are three questions. I have seen that yajvan ji has already asked at least one.


Is Proudhindu a policeman?
What Proudhindu did when he faced the life threatening danger that he faced?
What is his suggestion that all people of this Universe can be saved from such predicaments?-------------------------

A couple was coochi-cooing beneath shade of a tree, when Indra (thunder) struck and the boy got burned to ashes along with the tree and all animals in the tree. The Girl remained back.
In Tsunami, a whole family dies, except their one year child.
84 children die in a fire in a Tamil Nadu school, when their dining room caught fire.
A lion killed an innocent lamb and fed on it.
A man travelling by train was hit by a stray bullet from a firing range and got killed. His children and wife looked on.
A boy called Bala, was jumping with joy and bliss after visiting Venkatesvara in Tirupati. He fell down between two cliffs. He hung there for seven days, crying for food and water, and then fell silent.Horrors are many. Danger comes unannounced. Who to blame? And how to protect oneself and one's loved ones from all kinds of dangers? And then who is oneself and who are one's own?

One cannot protect 100% oneself and loved ones by ego acts, however much one may try. Death will overtake every one. One cannot purify the Universe. One can however act with wisdom to avoid dangers and purify oneself so as to not invite wrath of sin-eating Rudras.

We do fear thousands of fierce Rudras who surround us on all sides and who feed on peoples sins. We fear them. We deprecate their wrath. We propitiate Rudra to show the benevolent face.

Om Namah Shivaya

[proudhindu]

Pranaam Kd Gupta,



Namaste Proudhinduji
Yes, you incur sin, because you are following your boss's order and not your open mind. You incur sin because you are being paid for.
Sorry, but it is a fact.

Let us visualize a real world situation.

When a police man see a murderer in action who just killed a person and was trying to kill a couple of eye witnesses around, what options the policeman have?.

The policeman will warn the murderer to drop the weapon and surrender and yet the murderer continues killing.

The policeman who has a duty to protect the people has to stop the armed murderer by shooting him down.
It is highly likely that the murderer will die in this episode.

Gupta ji, what you mean by following boss's order or not having an open mind?.


You incur sin because you are being paid for.
Sorry, but it is a fact.


I get paid because i am in the employ of the police force and not for the isolated act of killing a murderer.

I am not sure that i understand you, did you mean to say a passerby who happen to witness this murderer can kill him to save the remaining people and yet incur no sin?.

BTW, i am not a policeman.

[brahman]

This discussion has been turned so material and feels like referring a case diary.

You kill "in the name of lord" or in other words "with purity of mind", but not effected by false ego.

Satya and Dharma followed together is brahman and that itself is karma.
Akarma is a stage without karma.
means akarma is wihtout satya and dharma.

so, doing karma is brahman. Would it be killing, if killing is your business.

Brahman

[proudhindu]

Pranaam brahman,


This discussion has been turned so material and feels like referring a case diary.

Can one avoid the material world?.

The Pc, the internet we use are all material creations created by people who LIVED in the present world.
The bill we pay to ISP is real.

The food we eat, the house we live in are all real; created by Real people.


So, better deal with the material aspects of One's real world.




You kill "in the name of lord"

No, ofcourse not.

I(referring to a policeman) kill in the course of discharge of My duty.

If i kill with a view to get a promotion or some acclaim then i am incurring a sin.



Satya and Dharma followed together is brahman and that itself is karma.

Are you saying that the Rakshak(Policeman) profession is not Dharmic?.


Akarma is a stage without karma.
means akarma is wihtout satya and dharma.

Could you explain your usage of Akarma?.

Did you mean sitting idle or doing things improperly.


so, doing karma is brahman. Would it be killing, if killing is your business.
Brahman

It is not the business of a policeman to kill.His business is to protect.

[devotee]

Namaste,

The action to be taken may vary depending upon one's spiritual status ( shall we say "Varna" ?) of the person who is facing the situation. In same situation the duty of person who has attained Brahman & who has not will vary.


How should i conduct myself as a policeman if that involves overpowering people and possibly killing them

In this case, the policeman has dharma of a Kshatriya i.e. to guard people's life & property. So, even if he kills doing his duty (with non-attachment) he is not accruing any bad karma.

However, a saint who has attained Brahmanahood & attained Self-Realisation can act in a totally different way. History proves that such people bring a change of heart in people instead of fighting a battle. I will quote a few examples here :

1) The episode of change of heart of AngulmAl, the serial killer, after coming close to Buddha is well known.
2) MA SArdA, wife of Ramkrishna Paramhans, was once passing through a deep jungle to reach Ramkrishna's place. People advised her to be fast enough to reach home before it was dark as that part of the jungle was often visited by a dreaded robber & his gang (I forgot his name).However, being a frail woman, she could not keep pace & it was dark while they were inside deep forest. Unfortunately, the gang was also passing by that area & they cornered the group of MA SArdA. Everyone in the group was saying his last prayers with fear. However, MA SArdA was still calm. The leader of the robbers came to her & asked, "Who are you ? Where are you going ?". On this, MA SArdA unhestatingly answered, "Father, I am your daughter SArdA. I am going to your Son-in-law's place. I cannot walk fast & so I am late." These words had magical effects. The leader was filled with divine love for mother. He ordered his gang to return everything whatever was robbed. He also escorted mother safely to Ramkrishna's place.
3) Once, in America, Paramhans YogAnanda was cornered by one drunk robber when he was on his way to his place late in the night. The drunk man took out a knife & threatened YogAnanda to kill if he didn't hand over whatever he had with him. YogAnanda, at that time, was enjoying divine ecstasy. He simply looked at him & said, "Dear brother. You can have everything whatever I have". The drunk man was struck dumb. He cried, "Hey, you have done something to me. I am having amazing feeling." ... saying this he ran away from that place.

Let's remember that Lord Krishna advises Arjuna to fight because that is his dharma being a Kshtriya by his Varna. He might not have given same advice to MahAtmA Vidur !


OM

[brahman]

Pranaam brahman,



Can one avoid the material world?.

The Pc, the internet we use are all material creations created by people who LIVED in the present world.
The bill we pay to ISP is real.

The food we eat, the house we live in are all real; created by Real people.


So, better deal with the material aspects of One's real world.





No, ofcourse not.

I(referring to a policeman) kill in the course of discharge of My duty.

If i kill with a view to get a promotion or some acclaim then i am incurring a sin.




Are you saying that the Rakshak(Policeman) profession is not Dharmic?.



Could you explain your usage of Akarma?.

Did you mean sitting idle or doing things improperly.



It is not the business of a policeman to kill.His business is to protect.

Yes the material स्थूल sthuula is infinite as you said, the सुक्ष्म sukSma is again infinte. I mean the minute finindng of yours is again infinte.
But the कारण kaaraNa behind everything is Brahman.

Thats all can say about it. Because I don't want to go away from where I belong.

Brahman

[proudhindu]

Pranaam Devotee,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.I heard Somewhat a similar story of tackling bandits with kindness.


Let's remember that Lord Krishna advises Arjuna to fight because that is his dharma being a Kshtriya by his Varna. He might not have given same advice to MahAtmA Vidur !

That is very eloquently put across.

We may discuss other points you raised later,like whether Buddha would have dealt with a Mohammad ghazni or a timur or a nadir shah in a similar manner .


I would also like to hear your thoughts on the issue i raised in post 44 of page 5.That particular issue is closer to me in reality.

[kd gupta]

Pranam Brahman
If killing is business then there is no scope for Satya and Dharma .

Being: Nimittamatram: is possible only after Vishwadarshanroop .
How do you guide THE daily diary ?

Regards.

[kd gupta]

Namaste Devoteeji
The Q. of Proudhinduji is not so easy…

It is not the business of a policeman to kill.His business is to protect.

You know Rishi Dhaumya taught gita to Yudhishter [ kshatriya varna ] in the forest , but there was no War .

If it is a daily diary example, then think…
Many people are declared innocent after being killed.
You have to catch a simple man to teach the lesson to a criminal.
You have to allot the work for lower bidder as per rules, even knowing that criminal will harm the concerned bidder tomorrow .

[brahman]

Pranam Brahman
If killing is business then there is no scope for Satya and Dharma .


Don't do it if you believe so.
Keeping these faith forever is dharma.


[/FONT]
Being: Nimittamatram: is possible only after Vishwadarshanroop .
How do you guide THE daily diary ?

Regards.


During the awakening of energy centers(Higher) we may experience the symptoms described as Vishwarupadharsana in Gita.

But I suggest anyone not to seek for Vishwadarshanroop, let it happen by itself.
Find regularity in spiritual progress, thats all one has to do about it.

But the ultimate dharsana comes from the ultimate sacrifice of all your bondage(त्याग tyaaga).

Thats what Nachiketa did to please yama, the lord of Death; and look what happened.

Listening to Nachiketa's inner thoughts, Yama, the Lord of Death, said, "The sun does not shine there, nor do the moon or the stars; nor does lightning or electrical phenomena cast any light there. Where then does the fire of this world stand? All the suns and the moons and the stars are illumined by its light.., the whole existence is illumined by its light."
Katha upanishad( please verify the traslation)

Even Death can be impressed with Deep Devotion.

Brahman

[devotee]

Namaste PH,



It is not about Handling emotions regarding loss of Car but how do you go about tackling the situation.

The example of car is about being under attack.If i stay in the car or anywhere near the attack site, me and my family members will be done to death.

The thoughts that eventually come to my mind is may be i should know how to defend myself. Buy a gun, take some shooting lessons etc...

Will such thoughts take me away from realising God?.

IMHO:

If you are constantly worried for a remote possibility, then you are already away from God. See, you are not solely responsible for whatever may happen to your family. If you think so, you are acting God Himself ! You cannot save your family from any attack, if God doesn't want. You are not the "actor" ... you have to take part in the role which God shall decide. So, I must not be concerned with what ultimately may happen to my family in any such a case ... "happening" or "not-happening" are results which are not in my hand. I have to play my role in a good manner, when the situation arises. If my family is under attack, it is my dharma to try to save them with all my might & I may even use gun (I can shoot with precision !) if I have one at that time ... I won't mind even if I am killed in saving them.

Let's see the difference here. You have to fight when you are given the role to fight. You don't have to worry or prepare when there is no reasonable threat ... that is a sign of your attachment to your family & your ahamkAr that it is you who can save "your" family ! First of all, it is not "your" family. It is just by chance that you all are together in this journey of life. Secondly, "you" are nobody to save them. You have, in reality, no powers. If someone's death has come, he will be killed in spite of all martial arts training or skills in firing weapons, otherwise, people with martial arts training or weapons training would have never died during such attacks !

I am not saying that taking martial art training or anything is wrong (or shooting lessons if you prefer) ..... if one reasonably feels that there is a need, it is OK (like when you are living in Somalia or Kandahar in Afghanistan) .... but doing it out of unreasonable fear is certainly going to keep him away from God, there is no doubt. The nerves must be ice-cooled in all situations.


Did somebody like Swami Lakshman joo said anything about pursuit of wealth(Artha) ?

"Anapekhshah, Shuchih, daksha, Udasino gatbyathah, sarvArambh parityAgi yo madbhaktah sa me priyah (BG 12.16)".

I must be skilful in whatever role has been given to me & that includes making wealth (as I am a householder) without getting attached to wealth. The wealth is not bad ... it is bad when I get attached to it. Again the roles of a SamnyAsi & a house-holder are not same here. SamnyAsi must not do anything for acquiring wealth ... that is not his dharma. However, the householder must earn not only for the family but also for those in society who cannot earn (that includes SamnyAsi).


After all, the society has to earn wealth and maintain defence forces to enable Saints to flourish and help the ordinary people realise god.

Absolutely correct ! The whole financial structure of society will crumble if the householders stop earning wealth.

OM

[proudhindu]

Pranaam Devotee,

It is a pleasure talking to you.


Namaste PH,
IMHO:

If you are constantly worried for a remote possibility, then you are already away from God.

No, actually i am not Constantly worried but reasonably CONCERNED


See, you are not solely responsible for whatever may happen to your family. If you think so, you are acting God Himself !

lET ME PUT IT THIS WAY.

I am born with certain qualities.i am of muscular build with quick reflexes and steady nerves.I was drawn to fitness training from early childhood and at the age of 53 i am still going strong.

Now, why did god give these qualities to me?.May be he wants to use me to fight evil.Do u rule out such a possibility ?.


You cannot save your family from any attack, if God doesn't want

Hmm that is true.But how do i know that God didn't want me to protect my family ?.Why on earth god gave me certain qualities that are suitable to protect not only my Family but also hapless people in similar situation.

Let me visualize another real world situation.if i happened to spot a Man raping a child what would i do?.
Do i sit idle and pray to god.Do i just phone a police control room and hope for the best.
I would not be doing any of these things.

I would immediately try to save the child by engaging the rapist in a fight.Why do i fight the fellow? because God has given me the strength to do that.




You are not the "actor" ... you have to take part in the role which God shall decide.

So, how do i know what role God has assigned to me?.


So, I must not be concerned with what ultimately may happen to my family in any such a case ... "happening" or "not-happening" are results which are not in my hand. I have to play my role in a good manner, when the situation arises. If my family is under attack, it is my dharma to try to save them with all my might & I may even use gun (I can shoot with precision !) if I have one at that time ... I won't mind even if I am killed in saving them.

That is a thumbs up from me.




Let's see the difference here. You have to fight when you are given the role to fight. You don't have to worry or prepare when there is no reasonable threat ... that is a sign of your attachment to your family & your ahamkAr that it is you who can save "your" family ! First of all, it is not "your" family. It is just by chance that you all are together in this journey of life. Secondly, "you" are nobody to save them. You have, in reality, no powers.

Ofcourse i am not in to worrying unnecessarily when there is no reasonable threat.


If someone's death has come, he will be killed in spite of all martial arts training or skills in firing weapons, otherwise, people with martial arts training or weapons training would have never died during such attacks !

Jatasya Maranam dhruvam.People should be prepared to fight i.e. if they have the qualities to fight.

Those people die with honor trying to save themselves and their fellow humanbeings.That is the way i see it.



but doing it out of unreasonable fear is certainly going to keep him away from God, there is no doubt. The nerves must be ice-cooled in all situations.

I agree with you completely on this.Unreasonable fear kills you everyday.

[proudhindu]

On the Point of Unreasonable Fear raised By Devoteeji
The example of kasmiri pandits in particular and Hindus in general is relevent here.

The peaceful,unsuspecting Pandits and hindus were massacred and driven out by Jihadis who were out to establish islamic rule in the kashmir valley.

An article written by KPS gill should throw some light on this subject.

The Kashmiri Pandits: An Ethnic Cleansing the World Forgot

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/kpsgill/2003/chapter9.htm

[devotee]

Namaste PH ji,


Now, why did god give these qualities to me?.May be he wants to use me to fight evil. Do u rule out such a possibility ?
..... But how do i know that God didn't want me to protect my family ?.Why on earth god gave me certain qualities that are suitable to protect not only my Family but also hapless people in similar situation.

Evil has to be fought. If I am not selfish & I am not deceiving myself by deceitful logic, I would certainly know what my role is.


I would immediately try to save the child by engaging the rapist in a fight.Why do i fight the fellow? because God has given me the strength to do that.

You may fight even if you are not physically strong.


So, how do i know what role God has assigned to me?.

It is not difficult to know, as I already opined.

I think we agree on most of the issues.

Regards,

OM

[devotee]

Namaste Gupta ji,



The Q. of Proudhinduji is not so easy…It is not the business of a policeman to kill.His business is to protect.

Yes, but he may have to kill to protect. If you think that killing is so bad, I am afraid, Lord Krishna's efforts in teaching the whole of Gita has gone waste !

There is no killing ... no one kills & there is no one who is going to be killed. We have to act as per our "Dharma" & if for "Dharma" I have to kill then ... so be it ! That is the teaching of Gita.


You know Rishi Dhaumya taught gita to Yudhishter [ kshatriya varna ] in the forest , but there was no War.

That is the beauty of God's eternal message. It is useful in all walks of life.


If it is a daily diary example, then think … Many people are declared innocent after being killed.

That is why there is a necessity to be skilful (Dakhsha) in all your roles. You must take your role seriously.


You have to catch a simple man to teach the lesson to a criminal.

???? this has gone tangent over my head !


You have to allot the work for lower bidder as per rules, even knowing that criminal will harm the concerned bidder tomorrow .

Do I "know" or do I fear ? Am I more knowledgeable about threat perception on the life of the bidder than the bidder himself ? I am responsible for my role only & I must understand well that I don't run this world. He who has created this world knows better than me how to take care of his creation.

I believe in this :

I must do whatever I can do in a given situation. I should accept my limitations & leave things to God, if I can't. May God give me the power of discrimination to distinguish between the two scenarios.

OM

[devotee]

Namaste Gupta ji,

You must have heard of VyAdh Gita. I think this may throw more light on what our 'duty' is.

OM

[atanu]

Namaste All,

I get the drift of what Shri Gupta is indicating. How many policemen really kill to protect others? I feel (and I am reiterating) that it is easy to cite examples from Gita or scripture this way or that way. I acknowledge fully that a strong and clean Police and Army are required. I also agree that a policeman who kills to protect others surely does not attract karma. Such a police man, if killed in action, will surely be granted a high state in heaven.

But the truth is that Guna drives all (Lord says so in the 18th Chapter). Lord also teaches: Whether you like or not, Arjuna, you will be compelled to fight. And Lord personally instructs Arjuna how Self is not the slayer and neither it is ever slayed. That was true of Arjuna. But a common man has no idea of that highest state, where Self does not slay or is not slayed, even if it kills. Gupta ji has said that visvarupa dharshana is necessary. I agree fully, since it must be known that Lord has killed those who are to be killed.

But actually most killings are not examples of selfless duty. They are pre-meditated by crooks. I have seen those who spew fighting spirit in their words, flee first from the scene and innocents are trapped. I have seen politicians of all hues incite tempers and irrationality for their own benefit. Defence deals are business deals and those who moralise also sell largest armament in the world. Despite all the talk of dharma, the illegal armament in India is known to come through Rajasthan. When money starts ruling a country all the high flown ideals are useless. I have seen a close friend migrate to a rabid Muslim country, though he was a staunch believer that Muslims are evil.

The world will be how it is. Without cleansing oneself, the thoughts of seeing evil outside is self destructive, since guna reaction is the continuance of samsara and all karma that bind us.

Kauravas were not destroyed because they killed others. But they were destroyed because they were impure egoists. They demeaned a woman. They, through sly techniques, grabbed what was not theirs. They acted impelled by greed, jealousy and revenge. The main reason was greed for possession, and catalysed by a sense of revenge in Duryodhana at being humiliated by Draupadi.

No doubt that there needs to be a clean and strong Khatriya ruler, guided by wisdom of Brahmana. But for that both inner and outer cleansing is required. Else, a strong military state will just become like Pakistan. Once some people clamoured for full autonomy for Police, Military, and the Secret Services. A wise man queried "Do we want a police state"?

It is easy to say that "I do duty being in Yoga with Lord". But it is not that simple. I agree with Gupta ji that the above is practical for one who has experienced the Visvarupa. Else, who is not driven by bias, prejudice, greed, lust, etc. (including this writer)?

--------------------

The thread is way away from the subject it was meant to be. And that is how the world is. It does not follow the dictate of man's ego.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Namaste Gupta ji,
That is why there is a necessity to be skilful (Dakhsha) in all your roles. You must take your role seriously.
--I believe in this :

I must do whatever I can do in a given situation. I should accept my limitations & leave things to God, if I can't. May God give me the power of discrimination to distinguish between the two scenarios.

OM

Namaste Devotee,

I agree to both above as excellent. Coming back to the thread "Principles I have found...", I place below my understanding of Gita and the highest message, as per my understanding. It is truly the contentment that is the goal for all. Driven by ego we act selfishly and when Lord retaliates we whimper and cry that the world is not good and that the evil is other than me.

Lord teaches: Surrender to me and I will take care of all your problems, I will wash away all sins.

Lord says "The wise are dear to me as my own heart". The wise are the one's who do not come to Lord after being defeated and asking for some or other boons. The wise are instructed "Know the Param Atman seated equally in every heart."

I think that these are two are the supreme upadeshas of Gita. OMMV.

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté



But the truth is that Guna drives all (Lord says so in the 18th Chapter). Lord also teaches: Whether you like or not, Arjuna, you will be compelled to fight. And Lord personally instructs Arjuna how Self is not the slayer and neither it is ever slayed.

IMHO this point atanu offers is very important to the overall conversation. If you ( including me) are not possessed of the SELF, then you are possessed and driven by the 3 guna.

And while we are in this condition, this truth prevails:
- gahanā karmaṇaḥ gathiḥ¹ - Kṛṣṇa - Bhāgavad gītā - Chapter 4, 17th śloka. Unfathomable is the course of action. That is, the inter twining of the 3 guna-s throughout creation are working. One cannot tell ( with 100% certain) what past action is coming to fruition on family, frieinds, or society.

So, proudhindu offers a few 'what if's' and we try to field these questions. But it is a bit difficult to answer. Are we answering from someone (any one, not proudhindu specifically) possessed of the 3 guna ? And if so, does rajas predominate ? As rajas will act differently then one of predominately of sattva or of tamas.
My POV I wished to offer ( in previous posts) to the HDF reader was the insight of one possessed of the SELF and what the wise have offered as knowledge and a new mode of functioning - for me this seems most valuable , but that is me and where all my attention is focused.

Now that said, if proudhindu can assist us with his question it would be helpful. How to help? are you looking for answers to existing complications or do you wish to know what the field of possibilities are, acting in an enlightened manner? Do you wish to ask what is one's dharma for a particular job function and what the results will be or are you requesting what is the proper course of action, not depending one ones social status or job level?

I now understand you are not a policeman, but are in fine shape physically. I also know you are not 'worried' for your family's well being but you are 'concerned'.
These things are what others contend with , within their lives as you would expect. At some point the concern is more concentrated then other times. I recently had a 'safe keeping' concern and acted on it. It was not a threatening environment yet I acted and chose a new course of action. My only.

So the question for me is simple - are you ( proudhindu) looking for a spiritual answer or insight or something other? I would hope both spiritual and practical can be offered - I find that to be wisdom.

praṇām

words

gahana गहन - inexplicable , hard to be understood ~ unfathomable
karmaṇaḥ or karman कर्मन्- act , action , performance
gati गति- path , way , course , method

[proudhindu]

Pranaam,

I would like to expand on a crucial remark made by devotee ji in post 67.


Again the roles of a SamnyAsi & a house-holder are not same here. SanyAsi must not do anything for acquiring wealth ... that is not his dharma. However, the householder must earn not only for the family but also for those in society who cannot earn (that includes SamnyAsi).


The way i see it The role of a saint, the jnana yogi, if i call him that way, should be advising people based on their Abilities(Gunas?).

FOR EXAMPLE

The sattvic teachings of a saint should be directed to make the Warriors(soldiers, policeman etc) behave more responsibly and more humanely.

It is not for the saint to make the warriors(with Rajasic Gunas) give up their fighting abilities by teaching MITHYAVADA or PALAYANAVADA(ESCAPISM).

For the hard working labourer the sattvic teachings of a saint should enable him to be a better worker, a better son, a better husband and a better Father.


I find nothing uplifting in hearing a well fed and well looked after swamiji telling his hardworking devotees that the world is an illusion and they should just forget about their problems.

[kd gupta]

Thank you Atanuji and Hey…So beautiful quote, PHji

My dear friend Devoteeji, explain pl….

It is not for the saint to make the warriors renounce their Dharma by teaching MITHYAVADA or PALAYANAVADA(ESCAPISM).

Suppose I am an executive, in the light of above saying, my three points early raised, you know I have to reach the site before god reaches.

[devotee]

Namaste Gupta ji,


My dear friend Devoteeji, explain pl…
It is not for the saint to make the warriors renounce their Dharma by teaching MITHYAVADA or PALAYANAVADA(ESCAPISM)

I think you have wrongly addressed this to me. This has been quoted by PH & not me, so he is in a better position to explain this.

If you ask my opinion on this : the Saint can decide in different ways depending upon situation. If he sees that war is no good & he is capable of stopping it, he may try to stop it ( Lord Krishna tries his best to stop the war of MahAbhArata) . If he sees that the war is essential for a better cause, he may ask them to fight (e.g. ChANkya) & may actively participate in it. Or he may decide nothing to do .... war is no business of a saint ... let God decide the best course of action.

OM