chitta and Manas

[rkpande]

I saw an old tread in the archive regarding the nature of chitta. The thread started with Patanjali's 'Chittavarttinirodhah', the chitta was taken as manas and meant mind and, the whole tread was devoted to understanding the human mind.
Most recent works use manas and chitta interchangeably. Vivekananda used manas as mind and chitta to mean mind stuff.
I find mostly people saying that antahkarana being formed of manas, buddhi and ahankara but shri Sankara's take on antahkarana is that it is formed of chitta, manas, buddhi and ahankara.
Any body - please explain to me the difference between manas and chitta. The mind stuff is difficult to comprehend.

[rkpande]

Incidentally Patanjali uses chitta three times in Samadhi Padha and manas once (sutra 35).Manas is used once no reference to chitta in Sadhana padha.
chitta once and no manas in Vibhuti padha.
seven times in the last padha.
(some say Patanjali uses iti in the last sutra of Vibhuti Padaha,the third one. they argue that in his time a work's termination is denoted by iti and hence the forth padha is later addition-- any comments please)

[rkpande]

I chanced upon 'A compendium of the Raja Yoga philosophy' by Tookaram Tatya, published in 1888.
There i found a work of shri Shankara 'atma-anatma vivekah', It was translated from original by Mohinee m Chatterjee, FTS. there are no Sanskrit verses but only English translation. This work is in question and answer form.
Q. what is antahkarana?
A. manas, buddhi, chitta and ahankara form it. the seat of manas is the root of the throat, of buddhi the face, of chitta the umbilicus and, of ahankara the breast.
the function of these four components of antahkarana are respectively, doubt, certainty, retention and egotism.

[bhaktajan]

Topic:


The difference between manas and chitta.


[ Proviso: "Citta" equates to the general phenomena of cognition —whereas, "Buddhi" is Intelligence. ]

Preamble:


"We are Spirits in the Material World."



—.

Preface:

The material world is composed of elements that are interconnected by Vibration/Frequency similar to the Chemist's 'Elements Chart'.

The (8) Material Elements:
1- Earth
2- Water
3- Fire
4- Air
5- Ether

6- Mind
7- Intelligence
8- Ego (a-hankara, false-ego)



FYI:
Besides these 8-Elements there is:
Brahman (the Void) +
Time +
Jiv-atma (individual Soul) +
Param-atma (Overseer/Source-of-all-Souls) +
the varied 'interactions' of the above elements.


The activities of the Mind (manas) is "[I]to be attracted and/or repulsed" IOW "to accept and/or reject" —this simplistic mechanical activity is the some total of all its functions.

This description alludes to the 'sense-gratification' propensities of a mind that is concerned only with the most superficial level of consciousness.

The activities of the citta (cognition aka consciousness) is "Buddhi" —Intelligence/knowledge.

Citta (consciousness) exists as the essence of our being, but we have been conditioned by countless births-after-births (samsara —reincarnation(s) here in the material world) —thus, Citta (consciousness) is achieved by way of the Soul being encapsulated within a body that affords Sense(and Ego)-gratification.

Such life-times worth of conditioning adds-up to a level of consciousness (Citta) that is ultra-mundane and thus such consciousness cannot rise above the bestial stratum of existance.

That 'Citta' that uses "Buddhi" (intelligence) practices discrimination of "that which is useful/good/enlivening/non-degrading/non-bad-karma-forming".

Recapitulation:

The mind's occupation is to "[I]accept and reject".

The "Citta" (consciousness) is the particular level of perception that is achieved by a living entity.

The "Buddhi" (intelligence) is what a human living entity has the free-will to cultivate . . . to achieve whatever the whim chooses . . . during a lifetime.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté



Topic:

The (8) Material Elements:
1- Earth
2- Water
3- Fire
4- Air
5- Ether

6- Mind
7- Intelligence
8- Ego (a-hankara, false-ego)



FYI:
Besides these 8-Elements there is:
Brahman (the Void) +
Time +
Jiv-atma (individual Soul) +
Param-atma (Overseer/Source-of-all-Souls) +
the varied 'interactions' of the above elements.


tattva तत्त्व is considered the true or real state, the essence. Various tattva-s are considered. There are 25 in Saṁkhya philosophy and 36 in Śaivism. Yet the essential essence comes to be Brahman.

If I read your post correctly, you offer Brahman as void or śūnya शून्य (śūnyatā शून्यता emptiness). IF Brahman is all that there is, then it is Supreme and unsurpassable ( anuttara अनुत्तर , chief , principle, without a second).
In your assessment how can Brahman be listed as a component when in fact it is the Owner of all components? And how can it be considered śūnya शून्य ? Or/and some would say how could Brahman be described with one word ( other then oṃ ओं , still an an approximation )?

If you have the time, I'd like to understand your views on this matter.

praṇām

[bhaktajan]

namas as tu te,

Your qestion has been the newest 'deep' issue that I have found to be incontention with other posters [aka hindu meta-physics aka Advaita philosophers aka Vedantists] ---namely 'The Nature of Brahman'.

Simply put, regarding the topic of "Absolute Truth" ---there is a Trinity that we all know of that is an intrigal part of hindu meta-physics, namely, "A] Brahman, B] Paramatma, C] Bhagavan" ---three aspects of the same "Absolute Truth".

Consequently as a vaishnava asperant, I quote the words of the Vaishnava Acaryas:

"One who has no knowledge of the potencies of the The Personage of God as "The Supreme Truth" will realize the impersonal Brahman.

When one realizes the material potencies of the The Personage of God as "The Supreme Truth" ---but has little or no information of the spiritual potencies, he attains Paramatma realization.

Thus both Brahman and Paramatma realization of the Absolute Truth are partial realizations of the "Trinity" ---[a Trinity that fully describes the construct of the Cosmos et al., ---God expanded as three parts constituting the whole picture].

However, when one realizes the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna, in full potency after the removal of the hiranmaya-patra [], one realizes vasudevaù sarvam iti: [Bg. 7.19] Lord Sri Krishna, who is known as Vasudeva, is everything—Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan. He is Bhagavan, the root, and Brahman and Paramatma are His branches.

......................................................................

Weather one ascribes to "God is a Formless Cloud-like Spirit" or "You are God I am God We are all God God is all We are all" or "My God is different from your God" school(s) of opinion ---there are three branches other than the former one I present at the start of these sentence.

Besides the varied School(s) of the opinion of what is "Bhagavan's (aka, God's) nature" ---there is two other seperatly unique branches left to consider: brahman & Paramatma.

Brahman is thee seminal void [the source of the void is thee shining sat-chi-anandic effulgence of Krishna body permeating the Mahatattva] ---this effulgence of God's Body that is permeating the Sky of "Outer-Space" is readily seen and understtod as the 'Void'.

But this 'Void' is pure and untainted by the influence of the Tri-gunas (Qualities of Goodness, passion & ignorance) it is NOt created Maintained and desolved ---it is as good as 'Transcendental'. Yes, if one could grasp one point-in-space, in the vastness of brahman ---say, (1) point-in-space yhat is 1/10,000th the tip of a strand of hair that is effulgent as 1000 Stars ---One would find their own souls visage [The jiva particle is estimated in the Vedic literature to be one ten-thousandth the size of the upper portion of a hair. It is therefore infinitesimal.]

In the spiritual world the Vaikunthalokas [beyond the covering of the Brahmanda's Shell] are themselves illuminated; there is therefore no need of sun, moon or electric light. It is in fact the illumination of the Vaikunthalokas which is reflected in the material sky. Only by this reflection are the suns in the material universes illuminated; after the illumination of the sun, all the stars and moons are illuminated. In other words, all the luminaries in the material sky borrow illumination from Vaikunthalokas.

Brahman exists in conjunction with two other parts.

The Absolute Truth [param satyam] has the natural quality of expanding itself into innumerable varieties of material and spiritual worlds.
We may logically describe this expansion after the fact in varied ways, but we cannot deny the expansion of the Absolute Truth.

The param satyam is the ultimate source of all energies, the param satyam is the Supreme Person. The gods or the controllers are undoubtedly persons, but the param satyam from whom the gods derive powers of control is the Supreme Person. The Sanskrit word ishvara (controller) conveys the import of God, but the Supreme Person is called the param satyam, or the supreme ishvara. The Supreme Person, or param satyam, is the supreme conscious personality, and because He does not derive any power from any other source, He is supremely independent.

Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan. These three features of the one Absolute Truth are different perspective views seen from different angles of vision.

And that parameshvara is Sri Krishna, as admitted in Bhagavad-gita and other scriptures delivered by Sri Veda Vyasa and specifically in this Bhagavata-purana. In Bhagavad-gita, the Lord says that there is no other para-tattva (summum bonum) than Himself. Therefore, Sri Veda Vyasa at once worships the para-tattva, Sri Krishna, whose transcendental activities are described in the Bhagavata-purana.

If the word "Brahman" is used as the nomenclature for "The Supreme" ---then that is ok, that is acceptable and proper ---but it neglects the two accompanying realms of existence, namely, Bhagavan (God) & Param-atma (Localised expanded presence of God in the nucleus of all particles--aka atoms; and souls--aka jiva-atmas).

"Brahman" may be said to encompass or envelope or be expanded into Bhagavan & Param-atma/jiva-atmas ---But there are three seperate entities that are uniquely of different facets of one crown jewel worn by Absolute Figure Head entity.



Brahman is not a "component" of creation it is the "field" where creation fills up with the cosmos et al.


Brahman is not something IMO that can be considered "the Owner of all components of creation".

Brahman is not a component and not the owner ---it has no atttributes. This attributelessness is tantamount to divine status. ..


Brahman is owned 'lock, stock and barrel' by another, a Person known as Bhagavan.

...................................................................................
BTW, I learnt that "Tattva" also meant "a topic entoto" [ie: buddhahood; Parenthood; A Branch of Science; ]

There are different tattvas, or truths, including isha-tattva, jiva-tattva and shakti-tattva.

Isha-tattva refers to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Vishnu, who is the supreme living force.

In the Katha Upanishad it is said, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam: the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the supreme eternal and the supreme living force.

The living entities are also eternal and are also living forces, but they are very minute in quantity, whereas the Supreme Lord is the supreme living force and the supreme eternal.

The supreme eternal never accepts a body of a temporary material nature, whereas the living entities, who are part and parcel of the supreme eternal, are prone to do so.

Thus according to the Vedic mantras the Supreme Lord is the supreme master of innumerable living entities. The Supreme Spirit is infinite, but the living entity, or the individual soul, is infinitesimal, although it is not different in quality from the Supreme Spirit.

I realise that the above may conflict with other schools of thought ---I do not seek to contracdict other doctrins but to shed light on Vaishnava sastra.

bhaktajan

[rkpande]

Absence of presence is shunyata and if brahman is omnipresent, how can then he be a void.

[bhaktajan]

I assume I may appear to be inventing a false topic ---but I sincerely am surprised that the mystical observation of the manifest world would neglect to 'VOID' [like it was some sort of 'spiritual suicide' that I was trying to inject into this Thread Topic ~yeah, maybe it's mis-placed digression here . . . ]

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
rkpande wrote:
Absence of presence is shunyata and if brahman is omnipresent, how can then he be a void.


Q. brahman is NOT shunyata?

Q. What is the name for 'that which is shunyata'?

Creation is divided into three components ---besides these three components exist nothing-else ---these three components the totality of the creation entoto.

The three components are:
1] Brahman +
2] Param-atma +
3] Bhagavan

I offer this analogy of three components:
1] The empty excavated field
2] The Bricks/Concrete/Wood/Pipes/Glass/Electricity etc
3] The principal landlord

Attached is a mini-Chart of the "24 Elements" I constructed from cited verses.

I do believe that there is no meantion of brahman on the list nor Bhagavan ---but there will be found how Paramatma is present as thee overseeing inspiring enabling omnipresent life force . . .

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté bhaktajan





The three components are:
1] Brahman +
2] Param-atma +
3] Bhagavan

I offer this analogy of three components:
1] The empty excavated field
2] The Bricks/Concrete/Wood/Pipes/Glass/Electricity etc
3] The principal landlord

I see the point you wish to make yet as I see it they are not 3 discrete components.

The empty field is ākāśa, it allows -or- provides the space for the bricks to reside in. No Space, no materials ( additional tattva-s) no bricks can be manifest.

The Landlord is bṛhat बृहत् It is full growth, extended and bright; This Being is svātantrya , completely Independent, completely free.

Pending ones view, it is wise to consider the following ( as I alluded to Brahman in my question to you in the prior post)....

Brahman from bṛh बृह् - to grow, expand, increase; to shine;
When Brahmā ब्रह्मा is written with long ā it is considered saguṇa or with attributes - He is the Creator;
When Brahma ब्रह्म is written with the short a, then He is nirguṇa , the Formless, without attributes, the Absolute.
As brahma the one self-existent Supreme i.e. the one universal Soul some call SELF; or one divine essence and source from which all created things emanate or with which they are identified and to which they return; the Self-existent
the Absolute , the Eternal as brahmā or the one impersonal universal Spirit manifests as a personal Creator and as the first of the triad - Brahmā, Viṣṇu , Śivā. To this note, many pick their Lord for adoration.praṇām

[bhaktajan]

Pursuant to defining chitta and Manas

I must re-state:
There are 3 Tattvas that comporise the entire creation, namely
1] Brahman +
2] Param-atma +
3] Bhagavan

To distill the discussion to "Essense" is to do a disservice to the seeker of Vedic Knowledge.

There are hundreds of thousands of words in The Vedas ---and I do not except that they are all for the purpose of aiming at an impersonal universal Spirit manifested To pick for adoration ---to which they return

Who is returning? To whom do we return? ---the primodial Spirit who exist not?

Yes, I do know, "Brahman into brahman" ---but that is a law of the material science od Physics.

The quest to acheive, manipulate & replicate the Properties of the Void (aka, 'absolute-zero') has alluded the wetern scientists and will continue to do so. Why? Because it is non-Material. The spirit soul is infintestimally atomically small yet large enough to be a sepearte entity distinguishable from the Brahman prevading all material elements.

So in my above paragraph I have painted a picture that has three aspects:

The Indiviual Being;
The Field;
The 24 Elements

3 Components, ie: The Cow, The grass field, the Sun/Moon/Earth water ---the milk drinker justs wants the nectar without too much butter-fat.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté bhaktajan



Pursuant to defining chitta and Manas

I must re-state:
There are 3 Tattvas that comporise the entire creation, namely
1] Brahman +
2] Param-atma +
3] Bhagavan

To distill the discussion to "Essense" is to do a disservice to the seeker of Vedic Knowledge.

There are hundreds of thousands of words in The Vedas ---and I do not except that they are all for the purpose of aiming at an impersonal universal Spirit manifested To pick for adoration ---to which they return

Who is returning? To whom do we return? ---the primodial Spirit who exist not?

Yes, I do know, "Brahman into brahman" ---but that is a law of the material science od Physics.

The quest to acheive, manipulate & replicate the Properties of the Void (aka, 'absolute-zero') has alluded the wetern scientists and will continue to do so. Why? Because it is non-Material. The spirit soul is infintestimally atomically small yet large enough to be a sepearte entity distinguishable from the Brahman prevading all material elements.

So in my above paragraph I have painted a picture that has three aspects:

The Indiviual Being;
The Field;
The 24 Elements

3 Components, ie: The Cow, The grass field, the Sun/Moon/Earth water ---the milk drinker justs wants the nectar without too much butter-fat.


Thank you for your POV and the intensity of your resolve...I see a few ideas in your offering (above). What my vision lacks to see in your offer is that of samasta - that which pervades the whole. This has been my point all along and my message to you for your kind consideration.

What more can one say about this underlying whole? Let me offer the following. The Chāndogya Upaniṣad , a vedāntic view assists our (my) understanding. The 1st chapter ( some call a chapter a prapāṭhaka or adhyāya) does a fine job of assisting one with brahman, ananta (infinity, boundless), ākāśa and the like. My favorite appears at 1.13.3 .
It says ( and happy to provide the verse in saṃskṛt if there is truly an interest) the following:
The one underlying Reality, the indefinable One ( anirukta¹) is the 13th stobha, the sound¹ hūṁ or हूं

That is, this essence appears as 'all and many' ~mutable~.

And the significance of hūṁ? It is the bīja of śiva. This is not a position or argument of who is Supreme; it is the offer of what Reality is, and its continuum, its underlying whole, (samasta) of everything.

From another view, what does kaśmir śaivism have to offer ?

Yatsattatparamārthohi paramārthastataḥśivaḥ
It says, that which is Existence (sattā) is the highest (param) Reality, the Universe is of the nature of that Reality, therefore everything is śivaḥ.

This is from Abhinavagupta's work Parā-trīśikā Vivaraṇa. It is a śloka where he gives praise to anuttara ( the Supreme, unsurpassable).
He recognizes yatsaḥ sarvam- from whom proceeds all, and yasmin sarvam - in whom resides all - this is anuttara.

I will end on that note and consider my contribution to this notion ( and string) complete. More words me thinks, will only cause mischief.

praṇām
words and comments

anirukta अनिरुक्त unuttered , not articulated, unspeakable.
this hūṁ is हूं
In the various śastra we find different praṇava. We know in the veda we find oṁ as praṇava; In the Śakta tantra ( that of Śrī Devī) we find hrīṁ, and in the Bhairava tantra we find hūṁ. The following śloka below outlines its 3 components of hūṁ:
Ha śivah kathito devī ū bhairava ihocyate |
Parārtho nādo śabdastu bindurduhkhaharārthakah |
Varmabiijatrayo hyatra kathitastava yatnatah ||
Oh goddess (devi), (the letter) "ha" (ha) is said to be (kathitah) Śiva (śiváh), (while the vowel) "ū" (uu) is said to be (ucyáte) Bhairava (bhairavah) here (ihá). The sound (śábdah) nādá or half-moon (nādáh) signifies (árthah) Pára or Highest (árthah) certainly (tú), (and) bindú or dot (bindúh) means (arthakah) destroyer (hara) of pain (duhkhá). Here (átra) the three (letters) (tráyas) (forming) the armor (varma) seed-mántra (bīja) are spoken (kathitah) to You (táva) diligently and with effort (yatnata-s) indeed (hí) ||

[bhaktajan]

Is Brahman absolute?

Is Brahman seperate from the existance of the 'Void'?

Is Brahman the 'Void'?

Practically speaking --shall we not study the connection between 'everything and its connection with Non-everything (Brahman).

Is Brahman 'everything and nothing' simultaneously?

Why is Brahman more valuable than 'everything'?