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Sagefrakrobatik
03 September 2009, 12:52 AM
http://http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism

bhargavsai
03 September 2009, 01:46 PM
It was full of Hatred brother. This person bases his arguments on hatred and not on clear deep understanding. He is a talker not a doer.

But thanks brother for the Link :)

Sagefrakrobatik
05 September 2009, 10:25 PM
I wonder what happened to my post it was so long

Harjas Kaur
17 September 2009, 08:30 PM
Your thread title is misleading. It isn't "Sikh" criticism of Ramakrishna ji and Vivekananda Ji, but Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha Britishized michevious Sikhism which was pitted together with Muslims in the late 1800's as a force antagonistic to Hindus in British Raj policy of divide and conquer.

All the problems between Sikhs and Hindus, divisions, renunciations, rejections, things like Bhindranwale and AKJ/DDT attack on Sant Nirankaris which led to formation of Babbar Khalsa and Bhindranwale Tiger Force/Khalistan Zindabad Force can be traced to these Britishized Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha divisions, including centering political power and wealth in Singh Sabha institutions Akal Takhat and SGPC, Khalsa Diwan Society, Sikh Missionary Society, etc.

Are you even aware of banning and repressing historical resource material like Gurbilas, Prem Sumarag, the controversies with Sri Dasm Granth bani and the missing 34 birs, suppression of Sarbloh Granth, the Adi Granth controversy between Banno bir and Kartarpur Bir, things like obvious editing, cutting, pasting, affixing false Guru signature, removal of Mirabai bani which exists in certain regional gutkas, etc?


The book on trial: fundamentalism and censorship in India

By Girja Kumar

http://books.google.com/books?id=n-KUICFfA00C&pg=PA374&lpg=PA374&dq=banno+bir+controversy&source=bl&ots=pZPhnKVnUR&sig=sUPD9QIkQLDaEFukb7KikOsvPOg&hl=en&ei=KL2ySofDFpCwsgOB9-XRDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=banno%20bir%20controversy&f=false

A whole History of Division: anti-Hindu and anti-Indian-nationalism:

1849 Punjab becomes the last kingdom in India to be annexed by the British.
1857 Sikhs assist the British in supressing the Hindu/Moghul Mutiny. (Sepoy Rebellion)
1873 The first Singh Sabha is founded in Amritsar under the influence of the Sanatan Sikhs.
1905 Sikh attempts to regain control of gurdwaras from their mahants (hereditary custodians) result in the removal of images of Hindu gods from Darbar Sahib (also known as Harmandir or Golden Temple) in Amritsar, Punjab.
1909 India's British rulers pass the Anand Marriage Act, thereby reinforcing a distinct Sikh identity.
1920 Gurdwara Reform Movement (G.R.M.) is formally launched to regain control of gurdwaras from mahants (hereditary custodians).
1925 Gurdwara Reform Movement (G.R.M.) is concluded with the Sikhs regaining control of their major gurdwaras from mahants (hereditary custodians) via the passage of the Sikh Gurdwaras Act, the formation of the Akali Dal and the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (S.G.P.C.) (http://www.sikhtimes.com/news_010199a.html), an elected body responsible for the management of major Sikh gurdwaras.
1928 Teja Singh, co-founder of the the Bhasaur Singh Sabha and the Panch Khalsa Diwan, and his wife, Niranjan Kaur, are excommunicated by the Akal Takht for, among other things, excluding sahaj-dhari (unorthodox) Sikhs and removing the ragmala section from the Adi Granth.
1945 The Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee releases an official Sikh Rahit Maryada document.
1946 The Akali Dal floats the idea of an independent Sikhistan or Khalistan but is unable to gain the attention of the departing British.
1963 Damdama Sahib becomes the fifth to be added to the list of Sikh takhts (seats of authority).
1980 Gurbachan Singh, the leader of Sikhism's Nirankari sect, is assassinated while on his way to the mission headquarters at the Nirankari Colony in north Delhi, a result of the sixth and final attempt on his life.
1981 The flag of the 'New Republic of Khalistan' is hoisted at Anandpur Sahib (Punjab, India).
1981 New Delhi receives a list of forty-five demands from the Shiromani Akali Dal (S.A.D.).
1982 Two severed heads of cows are found hanging at two Hindu temples at Amritsar. (Cows are sacred to Hindus.) The Dal Khalsa issues a statement claiming responsibility.
1982 India bans the Dal Khalsa and the National Council of Khalistan...
1983 Deputy Inspector General (D.I.G.) of Punjab Police, Avtar Singh Atwal, is assassinated at the entrance to the Darbar Sahib (Amritsar).
1983 Punjab's Congress (I) government, headed by Darbara Singh, is dismissed and replaced with President's rule, a euphemism for direct rule from New Delhi.
1984 Sumeet Singh 'Shammi,' a shaven Sikh with a Hindu wife and editor of the most widely read Punjabi monthly Preetlari is assassinated.
1984 Vishwa Nath Tiwari, a Hindu professor of Punjabi with a Sikh wife, is assassinated.
1984 Bhindranwale's close associate Surinder Singh Sodhi is assassinated. The alleged assassin is killed immediately. Bhindranwale publicly takes credit. The assassin's accomplice, Baljit Kaur, is tortured and killed. Her mangled body is found in a gunny sack three days later near village Walla in district Amritsar.
1984 Ramesh Chandra, who succeeded his father Jagat Narain as proprietor of the Hind Samachar group of newspapers, is assassinated in his office at Jalandhar (Punjab).
1984 The Indian Army enters Darbar Sahib (Amritsar) to expunge Sikh militants from its premises resulting in the deaths of hundreds including Jarnail Singh Brar (Bhindranwale) (1947-1984), Lt.-Gen. Shahbeg Singh, and president of the All India Sikh Students Federation (A.I.S.S.F.), Amrik Singh. The action is labelled Operation Bluestar (http://www.sikhtimes.com/news_060204a.html).
1984 India's prime minister, Indira Gandhi, is assassinated by Satwant Singh and Beant Singh, both Sikh members of her security staff. Beant Singh is shot and killed by the Indo-Tibetan Border Police shortly afterward. 5,000 die in anti-Sikh pogroms led by members of Indira Gandhi's Congress party and aided by the complicity of local security forces. 1,809 men are arrested for the crimes but later released on bail. The twenty years that follow bring only ten convictions, none of which punish those who actually led the pogroms.
1985 Air India Flight 182 (Kanishka) downed off the coast of Ireland, killing 329. Inderjit Singh Reyat (http://www.sikhtimes.com/bios_021103a.html) eventually pleads guilty to building the fatal bomb.
1985 Harchand Singh Longowal is assassinated (http://www.sikhtimes.com/news_090285a.html) while speaking at a gurdwara (Sikh place of worship).
1986 Control of Darbar Sahib is returned to the S.G.P.C.
1986 Khalistan, an independent Sikh state, is proclaimed amidst a Sarbat Khalsa gathering (a large gathering of Sikhs, figuratively representing the entire Sikh community) at Darbar Sahib (Amritsar). A Panthic Committee is charged with the leadership of Khalistan.
1988 The Jodhpur detainees, including Jasbir Singh Rode, arrested during Operation Blue Star, are released. Rode is appointed jathedar [head-priest] of the Akal Takht (Amritsar, Punjab).
1989 Satwant Singh and Kehar Singh are hanged (http://www.sikhtimes.com/news_020386a.html) for their roles in Indira Gandhi's assassination.
1989 122 kilometers of fencing is erected along the 533 kilometer border between Punjab and Pakistan.
1994 Pashaura Singh apologizes (http://www.sikhtimes.com/news_062794a.html) for and receives tankhah [religious punishment] for "objectionable" contents in his Ph.D. thesis entitled "The Text and Meaning of the Adi Granth," supervised by W.H. McLeod (http://www.sikhtimes.com/bios_092703a.html).
1995 Punjab's chief minister, Beant Singh, is assassinated (http://www.sikhtimes.com/news_083195a.html). B.K.I. claims responsibility. Harcharan Singh Brar takes over as chief minister.
1998 Ranjit Singh, jathedar (head-priest) of the Akal Takht (Amritsar, Punjab, India), {My edit:he is also the assassin of Sant Nirankari Guru Gurbachana} issues a hukamnama (edict) declaring langar (community meal) partaken of while being seated on benches and chairs as apostasy.
1998 Ranjit Singh, jathedar (head-priest) of the Akal Takht (Amritsar, Punjab, India), excommunicates Tara Singh Hayer and others who criticize the April 20, 1998 edict.
1998 Tara Singh Hayer, 64, founder of the Indo-Canadian Times (founded in 1978, the oldest and largest Punjabi-language weekly in Canada) and an outspoken critic of Sikh militancy, is shot dead in the garage of his Surrey, B.C. residence as he is transferring himself from his car into the wheelchair he had been using since an assassination attempt on August 28, 1988 left him partially paralyzed. In 1988 he was excommunicated by a Sikh high priest in Amritsar, India, in an edict that also forbade all Sikhs from buying or reading the Indo-Canadian Times. Hayer was a recipient of the Order of Canada, the country's highest civilian award.
2005 Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar resign (http://www.sikhtimes.com/news_081205a.html) as Union Minister for Overseas Indian Affairs and Chairman, Rural Development Board (Delhi) respectively in response to the Congress government's Action Taken Report in response to the Nanavati Commission Report on the 1984 Sikh massacres in Delhi and elsewhere.
http://www.sikhtimes.com/sikhism_timeline.html

Modern Tat Khalsa British monotheistic Sikhism which rejects Hindu heritage, Vedic, Puranic origins, Indian national sovereignty and allies with Pakistani Muslims is the culprit here, not original and true sanatan Sikhism of the Sikh Gurus.

Please at least, be knowledgeable of this. The Tat Khalsa extremists go around assassinating sanatan Sikh leaders routinely to repress sanatan Sikhism and Indian Nationalism and Sikh-Hindu Unity. But they are NOT representative of original and historical Sikhism by any means. Original Sikhism is HINDU! And I don't care who makes threats on me or denounces me, or rejects me for saying it.

Sikhism belongs and has always been a part of original sanatana Dharma.

And to those Hindu haters, when you cut off sect of Kshatriyas as not being representitive of YOUR sect of Vaishnava or pacifistic Hinduism, you are cutting off right arm and leaving your entire heritage without defense and vulnerable to Sikh-Muslim unity efforts by radical Pakistanis and Talibanis who want to butcher Hindus in India and so spread political message of division and disunity and Hindu hatred.

We need Sikh-Hindu unity NOW! It is urgent.
India’s Sikh Militants Forming Ties with Lashkar-e-Taiba and Pakistani Intelligence (http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=34319)



"We have seized 2.5 kg high-quality RDX, which is part of the same consignment as used in the attack on the Dera Sacha Sauda head in Karnal last year. The two murder accused were planning a big attack in Patiala and waiting for directions,'' SSP Arpit Shukla said.

The seizures were made after a preliminary interrogation of Makhan Singh and Raj Singh, accused in the murder of Dera follower Lily Kumar in Mansa and brought here in connection with the murder of Rashtriya Sikh Sangat Rulda Singh, he said. The seized RDX was allegedly brought from Pakistan, he added." Punjab cops seize 2.5kg RDX, claim major terror strike averted (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Punjab-cops-seize-25kg-RDX-claim-major-terror-strike-averted/articleshow/4973415.cms)

And behind all of it is the long arm of China.

So don't talk about "Sikh" criticism of Ramakrishna Ji and Vivekananda Ji, rather talk of British Sikhism's Singh Sabha criticism of early Hindu Indian Nationalists as part of the rhetoric of suppression and division.

http://www.britishbattles.com/second-afghan-war/ali-masjid/sepoy.jpg
These Sepoy British Sikh soldiers who were gifted with jagirs/land grants, whose leadership institutions were funded by the British have left the legacy of anti-Hindu, pro-Muslim, anti-Indian Nationalist Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha Sikhism.

Because of this political orientation and Islamified Abrahamic world-view, they have become Sikh fundamentalists excommunicating, bullying and assassinating opposing doctrinal viewpoints creating a historically unheard of suppression within Sikh religion, that sect which fought to the death to defend religious freedom. That sect which fought and died to defend Cow Protection legislation in India, actually beheaded cows to defile Hindu mandirs. CLEARLY we are not talking about the Guru's Sikhs! Because the Sikh Guru's bani calls the God as Govinda! Gopala!


ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਮਨਿ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਅਨਦੁ ਰਹਸੁ ਜੀਉ ॥
har naam miliaa sohaaganee maerae govindhaa man anadhin anadh rehas jeeo ||
The happy soul-brides receive the Lord's Name, O my Lord of the Universe; night and day, their minds are blissful and happy.
~SGGS Ji ang 173



ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਗੋਬਿੰਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵਹੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
dheen dhaeiaal gopaal gobindhaa har dhhiaavahu guramukh gaathee jeeo ||1||
Merciful to the meek, Sustainer of the World, Lord of the Universe-meditating on the Lord, the Gurmukhs find salvation.
~SGGS Ji ang 98

ਮਨੁ ਲਾਗਾ ਚਰਣੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੇ ਕਰਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਗੋਪਾਲਾ ॥
man laagaa charanae prabh kee saranae karan kaaran gopaalaa
My mind is attached to God's Feet; I seek His Sanctuary. He is the Creator, the Cause of causes, the Cherisher of the world.
~SGGS Ji ang 781


Govinda and Gopāla are names of Krishna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Krishna), referring to his youthful occupation as a cowherd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowherd). Both names translate to "cowherd". Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) go means "cow"; pāla and vinda form tatpurusha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatpurusha) compounds, literally translating to "finder of cows" and "protector of cows", respectively. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Govinda

http://www.sikhchronicle.com/sikh/images/canons.jpg
Kuka Sikhs being blown up by British cannons for agitating to support Cow Protection against Muslim butchers brought into Amritsar by British.

Sagefrakrobatik
19 September 2009, 08:34 AM
I appreciate your response but i was hoping you would give me a more detailed rebuttal concernin the authors claims;

One claim is that Vivikenada was a racists;


the poor in the West are devils...." The literature is sketchy on whether the Swami had any close contacts with Afro-Americans. It is also not clear how much of his terminology of calling America’s poor as devils applied to the Afro-Americans.



...that India fell because you prevented and abolished caste....Now look at Europe. When it succeeded in giving free scope to caste...Europe rose.

Then the author concludes;


In other words, if India has to regenerate, caste is the direction to follow. By not following the caste properly in the past, India went down the tube. After all, look at America and Europe! They followed the caste properly and that's why they are great!

Here is what the author claims Vivikenada had to say about slavery:




The history of the world teaches us that wherever there have been fanatical reforms, the only result has been that they have defeated their ends. No greater upheaval for the establishment of right and liberty can be imagined than the war for the abolition of slavery in America. You all know about it. And what has been its results? The slaves are a hundred times worse off today than they were before the abolition.
Before the abolition, these poor negroes were the property of somebody, and, as properties, they had to be looked after, so that they might not deteriorate. Today they are the property of nobody. Their lives are of no value; they are burnt alive on mere pretences. They are shot down without any law for their murderers; for they are niggers, they are not human beings, they are not even animals....


Continued.....



There is something in caste, so far as it means blood: such a thing as heredity there is, certainly. Now try to [understand]--why do you not mix your blood with the Negroes, the American Indians? Nature will not allow you. Nature does not allow you to mix your blood with them. There is the unconscious working that saves the race. That was the Aryan's caste. Mind you, I do not say that they are not equal to us. They must have the same privileges and advantages, and everything; but we know that if certain races mix up, they become degraded.
"With all the strict caste of the Aryan and non-Aryan, that wall was thrown down to a certain extent, and hordes of these outlandish races came in with all their queer superstitions and manners and customs. Think of this: not decency enough to wear clothes, eating carrion, etc. But behind him came his fetish, his human sacrifice, his superstition, his diabolism. He kept it behind, [he remained] decent for a few years….
"And that was degrading to the whole race. And then the blood mixed; [intermarriages] took place with all sorts of unmixable races. The race fell down. But, in the long run, it proved good. If you mix with Negroes and American Indians, surely this civilisation will fall down. But hundreds and hundreds years after, out of this mixture will come a gigantic race once more, stronger than ever; but, for the time being, you have to suffer.


Now lets compare these writings to what Hitler wrote in his definitive work Mein Kampf;


“Just as nature desires a mating between weaker individuals and stronger ones, far less she desires the mixing of a higher race with a lower one.”


“The Germanic of the North American continent, who has remained pure and less intermixed, has become the master of that continent, he will remain so until he, too, falls victim to the shame of blood mixing.”

Racial mixing “To bring about such a development means nothing less than sinning against the will of the Eternal Creator.”


“for true genius is always inborn and never acquired by education or, still less, by learning…This is true for the race as well as the individual”

Now its important to point out that Hitler uses the swastika, a hindu symbol as a symbol of his Nazi empire and constantly refers to his race as the Aryan race. So it is likely he came across vivikenada in his research. Maybe he misinterpreted what he said but Hitler had an understanding of Hindu culture even if his view was myopic.

Lastly the author gives two names, Jeffrey J. Kripal, and Narasingha P. Sil , it will be worthwhile to check out who these guys are and look at their crendentials.

so in this first part the author seems to be calling Swami Vivikenada a racist.

Sagefrakrobatik
19 September 2009, 08:43 AM
I appreciate your response but i was hoping you would give me a more detailed rebuttal concernin the authors claims;

One claim is that Vivikenada was a racists;


the poor in the West are devils...." The literature is sketchy on whether the Swami had any close contacts with Afro-Americans. It is also not clear how much of his terminology of calling America’s poor as devils applied to the Afro-Americans.



...that India fell because you prevented and abolished caste....Now look at Europe. When it succeeded in giving free scope to caste...Europe rose.

Then the author concludes;


In other words, if India has to regenerate, caste is the direction to follow. By not following the caste properly in the past, India went down the tube. After all, look at America and Europe! They followed the caste properly and that's why they are great!

Here is what the author claims Vivikenada had to say about slavery:




The history of the world teaches us that wherever there have been fanatical reforms, the only result has been that they have defeated their ends. No greater upheaval for the establishment of right and liberty can be imagined than the war for the abolition of slavery in America. You all know about it. And what has been its results? The slaves are a hundred times worse off today than they were before the abolition.
Before the abolition, these poor negroes were the property of somebody, and, as properties, they had to be looked after, so that they might not deteriorate. Today they are the property of nobody. Their lives are of no value; they are burnt alive on mere pretences. They are shot down without any law for their murderers; for they are niggers, they are not human beings, they are not even animals....


Continued.....



There is something in caste, so far as it means blood: such a thing as heredity there is, certainly. Now try to [understand]--why do you not mix your blood with the Negroes, the American Indians? Nature will not allow you. Nature does not allow you to mix your blood with them. There is the unconscious working that saves the race. That was the Aryan's caste. Mind you, I do not say that they are not equal to us. They must have the same privileges and advantages, and everything; but we know that if certain races mix up, they become degraded.
"With all the strict caste of the Aryan and non-Aryan, that wall was thrown down to a certain extent, and hordes of these outlandish races came in with all their queer superstitions and manners and customs. Think of this: not decency enough to wear clothes, eating carrion, etc. But behind him came his fetish, his human sacrifice, his superstition, his diabolism. He kept it behind, [he remained] decent for a few years….
"And that was degrading to the whole race. And then the blood mixed; [intermarriages] took place with all sorts of unmixable races. The race fell down. But, in the long run, it proved good. If you mix with Negroes and American Indians, surely this civilisation will fall down. But hundreds and hundreds years after, out of this mixture will come a gigantic race once more, stronger than ever; but, for the time being, you have to suffer.


Now lets compare these writings to what Hitler wrote in his definitive work Mein Kampf;


“Just as nature desires a mating between weaker individuals and stronger ones, far less she desires the mixing of a higher race with a lower one.”


“The Germanic of the North American continent, who has remained pure and less intermixed, has become the master of that continent, he will remain so until he, too, falls victim to the shame of blood mixing.”

Racial mixing “To bring about such a development means nothing less than sinning against the will of the Eternal Creator.”


“for true genius is always inborn and never acquired by education or, still less, by learning…This is true for the race as well as the individual”

Now its important to point out that Hitler uses the swastika, a hindu symbol as a symbol of his Nazi empire and constantly refers to his race as the Aryan race. So it is likely he came across vivikenada in his research. Maybe he misinterpreted what he said but Hitler had an understanding of Hindu culture even if his view was myopic.

Lastly the author gives two names, Jeffrey J. Kripal, and Narasingha P. Sil , it will be worthwhile to check out who these guys are and look at their crendentials.

so in this first part the author seems to be calling Swami Vivikenada a racist.

Harjas Kaur
20 September 2009, 04:38 AM
"I appreciate your response but i was hoping you would give me a more detailed rebuttal concernin the authors claims; One claim is that Vivikenada was a racists;"
I have given you an insight into the political paradigm of modern Sikhism's anti-Hindu agenda. Regarding the article which is posted on Sikhiwiki, let's analyze it closer:
"Sikhs are a soft-target in eyes of the Hindu propaganda machine. The machination comes in various forms, especially designed to penetrate the Sikh psyche by way of prophets of modern Hinduism. Both Ramakrishna and Vivekananda are such an entity of the Hindu pantheon, and many Sikhs mindlessly continue to participate in ceremonies promoting these two individuals." http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism
You say you want a detailed rebuttal of the author's claims? Does it not strike you at first glance that the entire posted and linked article is pure propaganda rhetoric intended to inflame Sikhs against Hindu's.

The British interpretation of Hinduism as a caste-based society of racial characteristics and hierarchical dominance was used as a mask to hide their own racism. Why did the British interpret Hinduism this way? Because British colonialism was an oppressive form of racism itself.

Examples:
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/images/britishraj_indianservant2.jpghttp://www.chopra.com/files/images/british.jpg

http://www.historywiz.com/images/india/indiaimperialism.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3037/2677154072_acb8dfaa76.jpg

To be quite frank, the British Raj did a lot of mischief such as altering sacred texts in order to deceive their intended audience, most notorius being alterations of the Manu Smritis, and also included religious texts of Hindu's and Sikhs.


"A movement to declare the Sikhs Hindus, in direct opposition to the teaching of the Gurus, is widespread and of long duration. I have only quite recently met in Lahore young men claiming to be descendants of the Gurus, who told me that they were Hindus, and that they could not read the characters in which the sacred books of the Sikhs were written. Whether the object of their tutors and advisers was or was not to make them disloyal, such youths are ignorant of the Sikh religion, and of its prophecies favour of the English, and contract exclusive social customs and prejudices to the extent of calling us Malechhas, or persons of impure desires, and inspiring disgust for the customs and habits of Christians."
~From The Sikh Religion by Max Arthur Maculiffe
http://gurugranthsahib.com/mac/vol1/intro23.php

Sikh prophecies in favor of the English? Did you know the British Sepoys required Sikh recruits to be amritdhari/baptised, and that British manipulated the amrit ceremony to include swearing an oath to the English Crown?
http://exiledonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/inda-famine1.jpg
If you want to investigate the truth, you have to investigate the whole truth. It was not Hinduism which promoted racism with a dominant "Aryan" race at the top of the food chain and starving Dravidian lower caste or outcaste masses on the bottom. THAT was the British structure cloaking itself as being only what Hindu's already believed, and thereby justified every exploitation and abuse.

These British colonial alterations ARE IN FACT what you find in the hysterical racism of Nazi Germany because the National Socialist Party of Germany had this Weltanschauung, particular colonial world-view and paradigm. British colonialism is essentially a Euro-centric pre-Nazi belief system of dominance and exploitation.

So where do the Sikhs and Swami's Vivekananda and Ramakrishna fit into this schema? Well, you won't fit the answer out of the context of British colonial India which is the root of all these controversies pitting one group against the other to excuse itself.

Your linked article goes on to say:

"Just to put issues in perspective, here are two examples that should catch your attention: (1) Ramakrishna had a great respect for the Sikh Gurus. This was because he believed that the “Gurus of Sikhism were the reincarnations of King Janaka of ancient India.” http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism
This is meant to catch the attention of the average Singh Sabha Sikh who would reject such a claim out of hand as being "anti-Gurmat" (against principles of Sikh Gurus) and being a Hindu misunderstanding of Sikhism. So before I continue with the article denouncing the Hindu Swamis, let me give you a sanatan Hindu-Sikh insight into the validity of Shri Swami Ramakrishna Ji's supposedly outrageous and invalid claims:

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦਿ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥
guramukh prehilaadh jap har gath paaee ||
As Gurmukh, Prahlaad meditated on the Lord, and was saved.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਕਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥
guramukh janak har naam liv laaee ||
As Gurmukh, Janak lovingly centered his consciousness on the Lord's Name.
~SGGS Ji ang 591

According to the Sikh Guru and scripture, Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Janak was a Gurmukh, which as a word translates "the Guru's face."

ਤੂ ਤਾ ਜਨਿਕ ਰਾਜਾ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ਸਾਰੁ ਰਹਹਿ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਜਲ ਪਦਮ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥
thoo thaa janik raajaa aouthaar sabadh sansaar saar rehehi jagathr jal padham beechaar ||
You are the incarnation of King Janak; the contemplation of Your Shabad is sublime throughout the universe. You abide in the world like the lotus on the water.
~SGGS Ji p. 1391

And in Shri Guru Granth Sahib is bani written in praise of Guru Angad Dev Sahib Ji as being the literal incarnation of King Janak. It's strange that what is being claimed as "anti-Gurmat" happens literally to be out of the mouth of Guru Granth Sahib. Talk about a corruption of politics.

You article goes on to say:

"The Swami's speeches on Hinduism at the Parliament of Religions displayed a plethora of deliberate lies. The leaders who convened the meeting did not fail to notice such lies. But, today, the surprise is how scholars fail to recognize a sinister plan orchestrated by Swami Vivekananda to elevate Ramakrishna Paramahamsa (1836-1886) to the world as “God.” The Swami is reputed to be Ramakrishna's most famous disciple.

To prove my case, I am indebted to Jeffrey J. Kripal, and Narasingha P. Sil (both in academia in United States) for their thorough research outlining the complicity of Swami Vivekananda to fraud. His rhetoric on Ramakrishna littered all over his writings remained consistent; Ramakrishna is portrayed as a God incarnate to save the humanity through a medium of Swami Vivekananda." http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism
You want in-depth detail? Well, let's take a look at it. What is the problem here? A devotee of a Guru believes his Guru is an incarnation of God. Was this never heard of in Hinduism? This is even found in Shri Guru Granth Sahib, can you believe it? Look..

ਕਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਧੂ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ਸਾ ਚੜਿਆ ਰੈ ਭਾਣੁ ॥
kal vich dhhoo andhhaar saa charriaa rai bhaan ||
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, there was only pitch darkness. Then, He rose like the sun to illuminate the darkness.

ਸਤਹੁ ਖੇਤੁ ਜਮਾਇਓ ਸਤਹੁ ਛਾਵਾਣੁ ॥
sathahu khaeth jamaaeiou sathahu shhaavaan ||
He farms the field of Truth, and spreads out the canopy of Truth.

ਨਿਤ ਰਸੋਈ ਤੇਰੀਐ ਘਿਉ ਮੈਦਾ ਖਾਣੁ ॥
nith rasoee thaereeai ghio maidhaa khaan ||
Your kitchen always has ghee and flour to eat.

ਚਾਰੇ ਕੁੰਡਾਂ ਸੁਝੀਓਸੁ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
chaarae kunddaan sujheeous man mehi sabadh paravaan ||
You understand the four corners of the universe; in your mind, the Word of the Shabad is approved and supreme.

ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥
aavaa goun nivaariou kar nadhar neesaan ||
You eliminate the comings and goings of reincarnation, and bestow the insignia of Your Glance of Grace.

ਅਉਤਰਿਆ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਲੈ ਸੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥
aouthariaa aouthaar lai so purakh sujaan ||
You are the Avataar, the Incarnation of the all-knowing Primal Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 968

and,

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੰਦਾ ਛਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਉਮਤਿ ਹੈਰਾਣੁ ॥
naanak handhaa shhathra sir oumath hairaan ||
Seeing Nanak's canopy waving over Your head, everyone was astonished.

ਸੋ ਟਿਕਾ ਸੋ ਬੈਹਣਾ ਸੋਈ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥
so ttikaa so baihanaa soee dheebaan ||
The same mark on the forehead, the same throne, and the same Royal Court.

ਪਿਯੂ ਦਾਦੇ ਜੇਵਿਹਾ ਪੋਤ੍ਰਾ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥੬॥
piyoo dhaadhae jaevihaa pothraa paravaan ||6||
Just like the father and grandfather, the son is approved. ||6||

ਧੰਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਿਰਿਆ ਤਿਨੈ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
dhhann dhhann raamadhaas gur jin siriaa thinai savaariaa ||
Blessed, blessed is Guru Raam Daas; He who created You, has also exalted You.

ਪੂਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਕਰਾਮਾਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੈ ਧਾਰਿਆ ॥
pooree hoee karaamaath aap sirajanehaarai dhhaariaa ||
Perfect is Your miracle; the Creator Lord Himself has installed You on the throne.

ਸਿਖੀ ਅਤੈ ਸੰਗਤੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਿਆ ॥
sikhee athai sangathee paarabreham kar namasakaariaa ||
The Sikhs and all the Congregation recognize You as the Supreme Lord God, and bow down to You.

ਅਟਲੁ ਅਥਾਹੁ ਅਤੋਲੁ ਤੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
attal athhaahu athol thoo thaeraa anth n paaraavaariaa ||
You are unchanging, unfathomable and immeasurable; You have no end or limitation.

So you see, the belief system where a Guru will incarnate into this world to elevate a devotee out of darkness and into light is not something scandalous or an expose' of any kind. It is part and parcel of dharmic paths. So what was this sinister "Hindu agenda" during "hey-days of Hindu revivalism and nationalism?"

That when giving lectures in the West Swami Vivekananda spoke as a chela of his Guru? Of course, this alone isn't inflammatory enough. So the article accuses the "Hindu" caste system of being the big bugaboo. Even though the caste system in India wasn't anything like it was under the British experience. The British experience transformed caste into a racial basis of natural selection. Because now, anytime the Swami speeches are analyzed through this biased filter, CASTE stands out as commenting as a racist diatribe. Because caste will be redefined as separate from the Swami's Hindu conception and be interpreted as a politico-social nightmare for which all Hinduism will be demonized and blamed.

So the point is, be an intelligent reader, and read in context of the entire history. And KNOW what the political games are. The Sikh anti-Hindu position is essentially united with the British Christian Missionary anti-Hindu position, demonizing Hindu religion as the basis for all evils and sins of Indian colonial society, and thereby the world would be greater relieved by expunging Hindu religion and it's demonic beliefs off the face of the earth.

So why would Tat Khalsa "Sikhs" being so closely allied with Hinduism in it's world-view, teachings and heritage now be hysterical in their denunciation of the evils of Hindu religion and Hindu religious leaders and in leaders of the Indian independence movement?

Because they were Sepoys. Soldiers and agents of the British Crown and by default, forces for upholding British colonial interests contrary to Indian National interests. And their promise and hope in this endeavor as agents colluding with an occupying enemy? The promise of Sikh Raj and Sikh independence. Have you never heard the Tat Khalsa expression,
"Raj Karega Khalsa?" It means the Pure Ones (Khalsa) will Rule!

'Raj Karega Khalsa Aaki Rahe na koi' isn't bani. It's related to political events during a later period of Sikh military history and exploited to inject separatism between Indian Hindu Nationalists and Sikh self-interest. Along these lines we find certain Jats who claim they have no genetic relationship with Indians but claim to be "Aryans" descended from Greeks, Scythians, and Pathans. This is the legacy of British Raj and their notions of Martial races and how Jat Sikhs came to be inducted into British Military service.

So look very closely at the context of that "Hindu" racist bugaboo claim of caste system. Behind it you will find British colonialism and blaming the victim. Did you know that the British only allowed Jat Sikhs and a few segregated regiments of Mazbi Sikhs to serve in the military? Chamars and other lower caste or outcastes were not accepted. So again, one must ask, who's caste? And who's racism? Why was the genetic racial type predominant in India, Dravidian, relegated to some inferior slave?

Was that caste-varna system which divided groups by temperament and social vocation? No. The British made the caste-varna system into a racial thing to justify Aryan supremacy. The Hindus did not do that. But modern India now bears a legacy of incredible divisions due to the British policy of divide and rule.

Did Swami Vivekananda promote British racism? That's the real question.


"Soon, America-the-paradise went through a shock when he wrote (20 June 1894) to another friend in India from Chicago, "...this year is a very bad year in America: thousands of their poor are without work." With less than a year of observation in Chicago and few other cities, the Swami in a letter from Chicago (23 June 1894) to the Maharajah of Mysore concluded: "No country on earth has so many laws, and in no country are they so little observed ... the poor in the West are devils...." The literature is sketchy on whether the Swami had any close contacts with Afro-Americans. It is also not clear how much of his terminology of calling America’s poor as devils applied to the Afro-Americans." http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism
A careful reader will note that propaganda by definition is intended to distort and persuade. Take another look at the above quoted paragraph from your linked article. Certain letters are being quoted entirely out of context and seem to be rather mundane observations. Someone visiting America see's wonderful things. Is impressed with certain things. Is disappointed in other things. The implication of calling him "Maharaja of Mysore" is to imply the Swami should have God-like powers and not have human experiences. As an all-knowing personage, the article is mocking him for what it claims are "contradictions."

Did Swami Vivekananda ever claim to be an all-knowing personage? If he is an enlightened being, does this mean he isn't in a body and subject to the experiences of being human? So the article propagandistically puts him on a high-horse only to knock him down. But there is nothing directly in these quotes which would on their own, be demeaning to the cause of the Swami.

It claims that whether or not Swami Vivekananda met Afro-Americans is uncertain. But then it links Afro-Americans to America's poor. And when in a letter Swami writes that America's poor are "devils," we don't know the context, because we don't have the letter. Just a sentence. We don't know if he meant it sympathetically, as in "poor devils." We don't know how he meant this sentence. So the article takes the liberty to imply racist promotion of Hindu caste system, and comments about America's poor being devils and an allusion, entirely invented by the article itself, about Afro-Americans.

The article is deliberately trying to create the illusion that Swami Vivekananda is a racist and against black people. Funny, since at that period in American history, the brown-skinned Swami would have been mistaken for an Afro-American himself and subject to Jim Crowe laws and racist legislation. So it is an irresponsible distortion and a completely biased presentation of the Swami.


"Now the Swami was electrically charged to bring about extraordinary changes back home. From Chicago, he drafted a letter (3 January 1895) to India to Justice Sir S. Subrahmanya Iyer in which he detailed his diagnostic acumen: "The present caste is not the real jäti, but a hinderance to its progress...that India fell because you prevented and abolished caste....Now look at Europe. When it succeeded in giving free scope to caste...Europe rose. In America there is the best scope for caste (real jäti) to develop, and so the people are great. Every Hindu knows that astrologers try to fix the caste of every boy or girl as soon as he or she is born. That is the real caste, the individuality, and jyotish [astronomy] recognized that. And we can only rise by giving it full sway again....This is my method...."

In other words, if India has to regenerate, caste is the direction to follow. By not following the caste properly in the past, India went down the tube. After all, look at America and Europe! They followed the caste properly and that's why they are great!" http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism
Not, "in other words." Let the Swami's own words speak. And don't let articles like this speak for other people in order to demonize them.


The Swami is clearly saying the caste system which India has inherited from the British is a corruption of the original Vedic intent of the caste-varna system which had not to do with race and being born into a particular family, but by ability, interest, intention and individuality. And by liberating the newly independent Nation of India from the shackles of British imposed inferiority and rigid limitations based on inheritance, the individual would be free to pursue those interests and vocations which they would excel at, and make India a great Nation just as the industrialized Nations of Europe were free.

But the article first has to demonize and misconstrue the caste system and then distort the Swami's definition of caste system to reflect something racist and negative.


And the final conclusion of the article is that Hinduism is evil and the representatives of Hinduism like Swami Vivekananda are evil. And who does this viewpoint serve? It serves some narrow anti-Hindu, anti-India interests. But it doesn't speak honestly about what the Swami taught. And I am embarrassed as a Sikh that anyone in the name of Sikhism promotes such ignorant hate propaganda. Because it says more about the stupidity of the person who wrote such an ignorant propaganda piece than it does about Hindu India or Swami Ramakrishna Ji and Swami Vivekananda Ji.

"The Hindu masses were in a state of ecstasy; they heard that because of the Swami people of America and England are rapidly converting to Hinduism. However, they were not told that while in Chicago the Swami also truly enjoyed eating freshly prepared beef delicacies." http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism

Libel: "A false publication about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community."

Anyone can say anything. Where's the proof? The authors of this article don't care what the evidence is or it would be clearly and indisputably presented. What they care about is creating the impression in people's minds. That's what this whole article is, a lot of slanders and slurs or deliberate propagandistically created mis-quotes.


"He received many honors, although Vivekanand's love somewhat faded when less than three years later, he recalled the implications of the warm Hindu reception accorded on him: "In India the moment I landed they made me shave my head, and wear 'laupin' (loin-cloth), with the result that I got diabetes, etc." http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism

Which of these activities precisely do they attribute as the cause for the Swami's diabetes? The shaving of the head or the loin cloth? Again, this is a snippet of communication attributed to Swami Vivekananda and we don't really know the context or even the actual communication. But the result is to create the impression that the Hindu Swami is a very ignorant man. And by default, Hindu's are very superstitious and ignorant people. But the reality is opposite. Hindu's are people. Many are well educated and brilliant, doctors, scholars, etc. So who is the real racist?
"The Swami made clear his prescription:
"Evil is everywhere; it is like a chronic rheumatism. Drive it from the foot, it goes to the head; drive it from there, it goes somewhere else. It is a question of chasing it from place to place; that is all. Ay, Children, to try to remedy evil is not the true way. Our philosophy teaches that evil and good are eternally conjoined, the obverse and the reverse of the same coin...."

In other words, the evil which spreads to every labyrinth of Hindu society is essential and therefore must be left intact. You suppose, the people did not come to hear him say that sort of a sermon! Vivekanand stressed the idea of preserving the evil and immediately augmented his visionary statement by providing the prime example of the Afro-Americans. Had the Negroes been kept slaves in America, they would have been better off; the evil of slavery should have been kept intact rather than destroying it, as America did. Here are Swami's own words to the same gazing Hindu audience:

The history of the world teaches us that wherever there have been fanatical reforms, the only result has been that they have defeated their ends. No greater upheaval for the establishment of right and liberty can be imagined than the war for the abolition of slavery in America. You all know about it. And what has been its results? The slaves are a hundred times worse off today than they were before the abolition.

Before the abolition, these poor negroes were the property of somebody, and, as properties, they had to be looked after, so that they might not deteriorate. Today they are the property of nobody. Their lives are of no value; they are burnt alive on mere pretences. They are shot down without any law for their murderers; for they are niggers, they are not human beings, they are not even animals....

The Swami's fixation on preserving evil quite never left him and it had the roots in Hinduism, especially in the Vedänta (one of the six Darshänas), on which he lectured quite extensively." http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism
(http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism)
Without the deliberate re-interpretation of the article's authors, Swami Vivekananda was pointing out that we can't get rid of evil because evil is intertwined with the world. It's everywhere. If we try to radically eliminate it in one sphere, we reproduce it in another.

Is that not the hypocritical truth of societies? So how did it get to be misconstrued that the Swami was advocating evil and that Hindu religion was promoting slavery and racism? That is the mischievious intent of the article's author, and a direct distortion of the Swami's teachings. It is a deliberate misrepresentation of Vedantic Hindu thought. Do you get the impression anywhere in the direct quotes attributed to the Swami that, eliminating civil rights, shooting and lynching and calling people "niggers" was something the Swami thought was good? Or was he scolding the hypocrisy of American society?
Maybe some people in American and British society didn't like the points the Swami was making, and on their behalf this article was written.

Even three years later, in California, he made it clear during his lecture on April 1, 1900: "If you see something evil, think that you are not understanding it in the right light....It is blasphemy to think that you can help anyone." During his hey-days of Hindu revivalism and nationalism, he introduced a new gospel: Do even evil like a man! Be wicked, if you must, on a grand scale.

He remained oblivious to the repercussions of his often-misinformed misunderstood speeches that will cause havoc to an already violence-ridden Hindu populace. Ceremoniously, he would proclaim to the Hindus: "sin is impossible; there is no such thing as human responsibility; man can do no wrong." After all, his Hindus are the descendants of a glorious race the Swami would retort repeatedly. This glorious Hindu race concocted the most evil system man has ever envisioned: the caste system. The Swami spared no effort to justify that: "....Caste is good. That is the only natural way of solving life...." http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism

Please notice in the above paragraph the only words attributed to the Swami in direct quotes. All the rest is slurs, libel and slander to malign his reputation and distort his actual teachings.
"I am a socialist" the Swami proclaimed of himself. Even though Vivekanand showed many inconsistencies, he remained somewhat stuck to his version of the Marxist ideology as he understood it; he prophesied about the coming of Proletarian Culture of the future. In 1896, he said to Sister Christine: "The next upheaval will come from Russia or China. I cannot see clearly which, but it will be either the one or the other.... The world is in the third epoch, under the domination of the vaisya. The fourth epoch will be under that of the sudra." http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism

We cannot know from the article in what context Swami Vivekananda referred to socialism. Certainly it would have to be in some context of India itself, and likely to the need for representation and social programs to eliminate the scourge of poverty and injustice. India would not be the country to benefit from an irresponsible capitalism which ignored the poor, seems to be the implication of the Swami's point. But of course, reading an article about the Swami written for the West, the inclusion of the simple statement, "I am a socialist." Implies something anti-American or Communist and again speaks loudly for whom this article was written.

The fact that Swami Ramakrishna predicted upheaval from China or Russia in 1896 is prophetic. My respects to the saint.


"Today, in India, there are more than 600 million sudras (sudra means slave), not to mention more than 150 million Untouchables and 80 million totemistic castes; all getting the brunt of the brahmin oligarchy. If and when the human toll is counted, I would venture to say, both the Bolsheviks and Maoists will regrettably take the back seats; thanks to the pantheon prophets of modern Hinduism, of which Swami Vivekananda held a high position." http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism

Where in the Indian Constitution is slavery legal as claimed in the article that India has 600 million slaves? Shudra means lower caste artisans, workers, and manual laborers. How many manual laborers are in the United States? You see, this is rhetorical speech intended to create a negative impression.

Who exactly is the "Brahmin oligarchy?" Brahmins as a class don't rule India. In fact, many brahmins today are themselves manual laborers thanks to rampant discrimination. The ruling family of India is the Gandhi family, no relation to Mohandas Gandhi. Indira Gandhi married a Muslim, Feroze Khan. Her son Sanjay married a Sikh, and Rajiv an Italian Christian, Sonya Gandi. So, where are the Brahmins? This is just hate speech intended to demonize Hinduism and India.

(To be continued)

Harjas Kaur
20 September 2009, 06:05 AM
So, what are the true teachings? Why be interested in interpolations and distortions by interests with political agendas to smear and misrepresent?


Brahmins in India have become a minority
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Xgc4ljHKM

HINDU CASTE SYSTEM : Divine secret revealed (English)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV74Ve8GPCU


In the Bhagavad Gita, Ch.4, Verse 13
The Lord says:
"The fourfold caste has been created by Me
according to the differentiation of Guna and Karma;"

ਆਪੇ ਤੰਤੁ ਪਰਮ ਤੰਤੁ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਦਾਸੁ ਭਇਆ ॥
aapae thanth param thanth sabh aapae aapae thaakur dhaas bhaeiaa ||
He Himself is the supreme essence, He Himself is the essence of all. He Himself is the Lord and Master, and He Himself is the servant.

ਆਪੇ ਦਸ ਅਠ ਵਰਨ ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ ਆਪਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਆਪਿ ਰਾਜੁ ਲਇਆ ॥
aapae dhas ath varan oupaaeian aap breham aap raaj laeiaa ||
He Himself created the people of the eighteen castes; God Himself acquired His domain.

ਆਪੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਆਪੇ ਛੋਡੈ ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸੇ ਕਰੇ ਦਇਆ ॥
aapae maarae aapae shhoddai aapae bakhasae karae dhaeiaa ||
He Himself kills, and He Himself redeems; He Himself, in His Kindness, forgives us. He is infallible
~SGGS Ji ang 553


ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਨ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਤੀ ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
jaanahu joth n pooshhahu jaathee aagai jaath n hae ||1|| rehaao ||
Recognize the Lord's Light within all, and do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji ang 349


ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜੋ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥
so braahaman breham jo bindhae har saethee rang raathaa ||
He alone is a Brahmin, who knows the Lord Brahma, and is attuned to the Love of the Lord.

ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਭਨਾ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਿਰਲੈ ਜਾਤਾ ॥
prabh nikatt vasai sabhanaa ghatt anthar guramukh viralai jaathaa ||
God is close at hand; He dwells deep within the hearts of all. How rare are those who, as Gurmukh, know Him.
~SGGS Ji ang 68


ਅਧਮ ਚੰਡਾਲੀ ਭਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਸੂਦੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟਾਈ ਰੇ ॥
adhham chanddaalee bhee brehamanee soodhee thae sraesattaaee rae ||
The lowly outcaste becomes a Brahmin, and the untouchable sweeper becomes pure and sublime.

ਪਾਤਾਲੀ ਆਕਾਸੀ ਸਖਨੀ ਲਹਬਰ ਬੂਝੀ ਖਾਈ ਰੇ ॥੧॥
paathaalee aakaasee sakhanee lehabar boojhee khaaee rae ||1||
The burning desire of the nether regions and the etheric realms is finally quenched and extinguished. ||1||
~SGGS Ji ang 381


ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੁ ਜੋ ਬਿੰਦੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ॥
so brehaman jo bindhai breham ||
He alone is a Brahmin, who knows God.
~SGGS ang 1411

"So far as their bodies are concerned, the individuals belonging to all the four orders have the five primal elements for the constituent ingredients. Indeed, in this respect, they are all of the same substance. For all that, distinctions exist between them in respect of both practices relating to life or the world and the duties of righteousness. Notwithstanding these distinctions, sufficient liberty of action is left to them in consequence of which all individuals may attain to an equality of condition.

All men are equal in respect of their physical organism. All of them, again, are possessed of souls that are equal in respect of their nature. When dissolution comes, all else dissolve away. What remains is the inceptive will to achieve Righteousness.That, indeed, reappears (in next life) of itself. When such is the result (that is when the enjoyments and endurance of this life are due to the acts of a past life), the inequality of lot discernible among human beings cannot be regarded in any way anomalous." ~The Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva section CLXIV
http://www.hinduism.co.za/newpage8.htm


"Caste is a very good thing. Caste is the plan we want to follow. What caste really is, not one in a million understands. There is no country in the world without caste. Caste is based throughout on that principle. The plan in India is to make everybody Brahmana, the Brahmana being the ideal of humanity. If you read the history of India you will find that attempts have always been made to raise the lower classes. Many are the classes that have been raised. Many more will follow till the whole will become Brahmana. That is the plan.

Our ideal is the Brahmana of spiritual culture and renunciation. By the Brahmana ideal what do I mean? I mean the ideal Brahmana-ness in which worldliness is altogether absent and true wisdom is abundantly present. That is the ideal of the Hindu race. Have you not heard how it is declared he, the Brahmana, is not amenable to law, that he has no law, that he is not governed by kings, and that his body cannot be hurt? That is perfectly true. Do not understand it in the light thrown upon it by interested and ignorant fools, but understand it in the light of the true and original Vedantic conception..

If the Brahmana is he who has killed all selfishness and who lives to acquire and propagate wisdom and the power of love - if a country is altogether inhabited by such Brahmanas, by men and women who are spiritual and moral and good, is it strange to think of that country as being above and beyond all law? What police, what Military are necessary to govern them? Why should any one govern them at all? Why should they live under a government? They are good and noble, and they are the men of God; these are our ideal Brahmanas, and we read that in the Satya Yuga there was only one caste, and that was the Brahmana."

~"Swami Vivekananda on India and Her Problems"
http://hubpages.com/hub/caste


"According to Sri Ramakrishna, jatyabhimana, the pride of caste or lineage, was one of eight ties that bind the self to the world of maya. Then, as his sadhana became more and more intense, the urge to demolish the ego and feel one with all also grew in him. To attain this objective he used unique methods unheard of in the realm of spiritual practice. He would clean the places where the poor of all castes were fed by the temple management, remove their used plates, and sometimes even eat their leavings. In India scavengers are considered to belong to the lowest caste, the untouchables.

Sri Ramakrishna would go to the dwelling place of the temple scavenger and clean his toilet stealthily, lest the owner should object. This was his way of getting over the feeling of caste superiority. Shame, hatred and fear are considered to be obstacles in the spiritual path. This single act shows how he got over these obstacles. He felt no shame in cleaning the hut of a low-caste person; he had no hatred towards anybody, nor any aversion for menial jobs; he had no fear of social disapproval and was not afraid of excommunication.

The fear of others' opinion - 'What will people think of me?' - is the worst form of weakness in man. We always want the approval and appreciation of others. Behind this psychology is the ego of the individual. Sri Ramakrishna had no such weakness in him. He was absolutely indifferent to the opinion of the world. He would not hesitate to sacrifice anything for a righteous cause. He was of the opinion that the pride of being born in an upper-caste family inflates the ego and bars the vision of equality towards all creatures of God.

He virtually saw God in everybody, even in the prostitute, the pariah and the mleccha (a member of an alien race). The concept of equality, that God resides in everybody, that all are His children, is not new in religion. Many saints have declared this truth. But in the history of the world one does not come across another example where such methods were adopted to remove caste consciousness. Unique indeed were the ways of Sri Ramakrishna." http://www.eng.vedanta.ru/library/prabuddha_bharata/Feb2005_Sri_Ramakrishna_and_the_caste_system.php

Harjas Kaur
20 September 2009, 07:11 AM
"To prove my case, I am indebted to Jeffrey J. Kripal, and Narasingha P. Sil (both in academia in United States) for their thorough research outlining the complicity of Swami Vivekananda to fraud."

Well that sounds "official." The author who is essentially a "detractor" speaking against Hinduism, India AND Swami Vivekananda and Swami Ramakrishna is highlighting these illustrious members of American academia for their "thorough research."


Kali's Child: The Mystical and the Erotic in the Life and Teachings of Ramakrishna

Dr. Kripal's 1995 book Kali's Child: The Mystical and the Erotic in the Life and Teachings of Ramakrishna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali%27s_Child) was a was a psychoanalytic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoanalytic) study of the Bengali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal) mystic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism) Ramakrishna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramakrishna).


The book Kali's Child (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali%27s_Child) argues that "Ramakrishna’s mystical experiences...were in actual fact profoundly, provocatively, scandalously erotic."[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_J._Kripal#cite_note-1) The book got a mixed reception among scholars, and caused intense controversy among both Western and Indian audience members who objected to the ideas put forth in the book.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_J._Kripal#cite_note-urban-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_J._Kripal#cite_note-alan-3)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_J._Kripal#cite_note-4)



In 2004, Hawley revisited the controversy, and wrote in his study The Damage of Separation, that neither the gopis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopi)’ torment nor Ramakrishna's must be allowed to devolve to a bodily level.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_J._Kripal#cite_note-js_hawley_quote-5) Hawley further wrote that communities of people who respond to different sexual orientations should not indiscriminately impose their thoughts on religious communities.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_J._Kripal#cite_note-js_hawley_quote-5) The deductions of the book Kali's Child psychoanalysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoanalysis) and hermeneutics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_J._Kripal#cite_note-6)



A 173 page rebuttal written by Swami Tyagananda titled Kali's Child Revisited: Didn't Anyone Check the Documentation? provides a detailed analysis of the translation errors and calls into question if anyone at the University of Chicago Press who peer-reviewed Kali’s Child prior to publication spoke Bengali or had knowledge of 19th century Bengal culture and checked the translations and assumptions. [8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_J._Kripal#cite_note-7) have been disputed and argued to have been built on mistranslations, distortion of sources, misuse of tantra, misuse of psychoanalysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoanalysis) and hermeneutics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_J._Kripal#cite_note-6)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_J._Kripal




"Kripal tells us that the negative reaction was due to a "deep cultural rejection of homosexuality" (KC xxi);2 it was an angry response to exposing the "secret" of "Ramakrishna's homoerotic desires" (KC xv). In fact the truth is much more simple: yes, the criticism the book received was due to its conclusions regarding Ramakrishna's purported homosexuality. But Kripal's conclusions came via faulty translations, a willful distortion and manipulation of sources, combined with a remarkable ignorance of Bengali culture. The derisive, nonscholarly tone with which he discussed Ramakrishna didn't help matters either.

To make the facile claim that the criticism leveled against Kali's
Child was due to homophobia is to deflect from the real issue of shoddy and deceptive scholarship. Should a person with a good grasp of Bengali language and culture seriously read the Bengali source books on Ramakrishna and then come to the conclusion that Ramakrishna was a conflicted homosexual, I would respect that person's freedom to come to this conclusion. I would strongly disagree with him or her, but I—and many other devotees of Ramakrishna—would fully support that person's
freedom of inquiry and thought. What I and others will never support is the freedom to distort the text and the freedom to misuse citations.

Since I am a monk of the Ramakrishna Order, some may argue that my Bengali translations and my use of citations will only serve to reflect my biased viewpoint. Let me then quote Narasingha Sil regarding Kripal's scholarship. Sil (whom Kripal particularly thanks in his preface to the first edition) has been Kripal's occasional collaborator and colleague. Moreover, no one would ever accuse Narasingha Sil and the
Ramakrishna Order of mutual admiration.

Speaking of Kripal's Bengali, Sil says: "Jeffrey is very adept at using Bengali-English dictionaries and picking the most appropriate synonyms for words (disregarding the primary, secondary, tertiary meanings) he feels could make his point." Sil also notes that Kripal "is unable even to converse in Bengali (but very prompt at using dictionaries)."3 Indeed, even Kripal's associates in India acknowledge that when he arrived in Calcutta his knowledge of Bengali was fairly elementary. After eight months of study, Kripal's Bengali improved, but never beyond the intermediate stage.

He still cannot speak Bengali and understands little when spoken to. Such a limited understanding of a foreign language and culture could hardly give Kripal the background necessary to understand a man whose village Bengali was worlds apart from the conventional Bengali appearing within the neat margins of the dictionaries. Further, Kripal's ignorance of Bengali culture jumps right off the page. Many of the author's misinterpretations are due to a simple lack of familiarity with Bengali attitudes and customs. The notes following this introductory essay will make this shortcoming abundantly clear.

Finally, regarding Kali's Child itself, Sil notes: "…[Kripal's] method of supporting his thesis is not only wrong but reprehensible in that it involves willful distortion and manipulation of sources.... Kripal has faulted Swami Nikhilananda for his ‘concealment’ and doctoring of the crude expressions of KM [Kathamrita], but he has unhesitatingly committed similar crime[s] of omission and commission to suit his thesis."4


...Except for a few minor corrections in the book's second edition, Kripal's original thesis remains intact, indeed has been strengthened, in the years between the book's first and second edition. Kripal now says with a clearer authority: "The case of Ramakrishna's homosexuality … seems to be closed" (KC xxi).

Who has closed the case? While Kripal informs us that Kali's Child "has been lauded by scholars … for being right (KC xxii)," one wonders if any of those praising the book have ever read its citations. Have any of those scholars who have given this book so much acclaim actually read the Bengali sources that he quotes? How many of them can actually read Bengali well, if at all?

Oddly enough, Kripal attempts to invoke Christopher Isherwood as having a "homosexual reading of Ramakrishna" (KC xiii). It is odd because if one reads the book that Kripal cites, My Guru and His Disciple, Isherwood clearly declares exactly the opposite: "I couldn't honestly claim him [Ramakrishna] as a homosexual, even a sublimated one, much as I would have liked to be able to do so."5

Kripal buttresses his claim for Isherwood's "homosexual reading" of Ramakrishna by providing us with the following anecdote: In 1995 a well-known scholar, having heard Kripal's talk on Ramakrishna and his homosexual orientation, informed the author and the audience, "Chris Isherwood was a close friend of mine, and I want you to know that, if he could have been here today, Chris would have been very pleased" (KCxiii).

Yet, to my surprise, this particular "well-known scholar" approached me at the November 2000 annual meeting of the American Academy of Religion and declared that he had been completely misquoted. In fact, the scholar said, he had never even met Christopher Isherwood, so he could hardly be considered a "close friend"! It is precisely this kind of fraudulent scholarship that forms the backbone of Kali's Child...

Perhaps the centerpiece of Kali's Child is the assertion that
"Ramakrishna was a conflicted, unwilling, homoerotic Tantrika" (KC 3). Further, Tantra's "heterosexual assumptions seriously violated the structure of his own homosexual desires. His female Tantric guru and temple boss may have forced themselves … on the saint … but Ramakrishna remained … a lover not of sexually aggressive women or even of older men but of young, beautiful boys" (KC 2-3, emphasis mine).

Interesting thesis; how does he document his claims?
Ramakrishna, Kripal informs us, went into samadhi "while looking
at the cocked hips of a beautiful English boy" (KC 19, emphasis mine). Interesting choice of adjectives. Kripal repeats this phrase later by declaring: "stunned by the cocked hips of the boy, Ramakrishna falls into samadhi" (KC 66).
http://www.gemstone-av.com/KCR3b.pdf

You asked for a rebuttal to an inflammatory article posted against Hinduism, against the Caste system as politically defined, against Swami Vivekananda for being a Hindu who believed in the ideal of the spiritual intent of the caste system, and against Swami Ramakrishna for being his Guru, for being believed to be an avatar and promoted as such, and for being denounced by a decrepit American scholar for being a conflicted homosexual and fraud, I suppose fraud for being a celibate brahmacari and having alleged sexual conflicts.

Who knows really what these people mean by fraud when the accusations they make are fraud. In any event, such accusations are made to bring disrepute to the Swamis and don't reflect on anything substantial. Such nindya is gossip and slander intended to create scapegoats to hurl abuses on. I mean, to deliberately posit samadhi as a state of sexual arousal is an incredible distortion that speaks loudly to the mentality of the author of such an opinion.

How can anyone rebut such derogatory insults? They rebut themselves on their face.

People who promote such unsubstantiated trashy insults against honorable men are the lowest of the low. And if they call the name of God as Sat, meaning truth, which is true of Sikhism, then they show how far they are from respecting the actuality of truth and the reality of God.


"Having failed, Bhairavi induced the master to engage in sexual play with the vagin-shaped lotuses. The details of such practices are much ugly; even though sanctioned by Hinduism, for sake of brevity I choose to bypass." http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism

If anyone wants to know what Swami Vivekananda and Swami Ramakrishna actually taught and believed I recommend you read their books and not rely on the titillating juvenile fantasies of low-minded people.

http://www.belurmath.org/relief_news_archives/patna_flood_relief_sept2007/images/Flood%20Relief%20Photos%20-%20Ramakrishna%20Mission,%20Patna%20%2872%29.jpg
The Ramakrishna Mission is one of the brights stars in Indian humanitarianism. Why detract from that?

These Swamis have left a legacy of something beautiful. Only ugly minds would distort a message of love and hope and social justice.


What they Say - The video made from the interviews of authorities who appreciated the work of Ramakrishna Mission Free T.B. Clinic, New Delhi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX66knO1jZA


Child Welfare in IDP camps -Relief work by Ramakrishna Mission, Ceylon Branch, in Batticaloa.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it795M411mc

Songs by Children of Vazhavaham Jaffna - Visually imparied children at Ramakrishna Mission, Colombo - Oct 2005
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD_6mW8mxOg

Harjas Kaur
20 September 2009, 07:40 AM
"Some of his speeches of this time got lost; however, one speech that clearly stands high is the one delivered on February 2, 1900 at the Shakespeare Club, in Pasadena, California. I bring a portion of this speech, titled--Buddhistic India--to your attention which throws some light on Aryan Hindu's attitude to darker-skinned race and above all, on the breathtaking convolutions of the Swami's mind...

"And that was degrading to the whole race. And then the blood mixed; [intermarriages] took place with all sorts of unmixable races. The race fell down. But, in the long run, it proved good. If you mix with Negroes and American Indians, surely this civilisation will fall down. But hundreds and hundreds years after, out of this mixture will come a gigantic race once more, stronger than ever; but, for the time being, you have to suffer."
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Vivekananda_%26_Ramakrishna_with_Sikhism
The article claims this is a speech Swami Vivekananda gave. Where is the citation so we can all go and check it's authenticity and whether it was a direct recording of the actual speech, or an interpretive recollection of the speech by a member of the audience. Swami Vivekananda has written many articles himself. Why would this one rely on some obscure speech for which there is no citation reference to cross check in this article.

Right now, all we have is an article whose citations reference:
Sil, Narasingha P. Vivekananda's Ramakrishna: An Untold Story of Mythmaking and Propaganda.

Kripal, Jeffrey J. Kali's Child: The Mystical and the Erotic in the Life and Teachings of Ramakrishna.
And we can clearly see the intention behind the rhetoric.

What is the context and intention? He seems to be talking about a clash and mixing of cultures which will initially prove destructive but in the long run prove to be a healthy evolution. Is this really racism? Remember the context and intention of the speech being the subject of American racism and the natural order of dominance hierarchies in societies being a form of caste system. He sounds like he's confronting the problem, which in the year 1900 was significant. There were a million members of the Ku Klux Klan in the 1900's. It was as American as apple pie.

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/kkk1.jpg

But if the Swami was really a racist in the British colonial and German nazi context, why would he say the end result of race-mixing would be a healthier, more vibrant society? He seems to be addressing the conflicts America was having as a new multi-cultural society, while believing in equality and democracy, still had "untouchable" classes of people. And in this way was probably trying to explain that "untouchability" isn't a "Hindu" problem, but a "human" problem.

Moreover, radical alterations of society is an American paradigm which is not shared by the rest of the world. Most countries have races, groups, religions, cultures which have endured for hundreds, even thousands of years that don't want to lose their identities in some kind of melting pot. However, from the spiritual viewpoint, the human body is a temporary vehicle for soul development. The souls are equal, but the life circumstances are not. Cultural changes and upheavals often lead to riots and civil unrest before they lead to authentic reform.

In any event, bits and snatches of speeches without context are highly unreliable. Speeches without supportive documentation or reference citations are unreliable. I have enough respect for Swami Vivekananda Ji and Swami Ramakrishna Ji to give them the benefit of the doubt when detractors writing slurs and slanders are presenting the material.


Why not simply read Swami Vivekananda directly? Why even bother with what his detractors say? Somebody giving a speech in the 1900's to an audience in the 1900's isn't really speaking to our world-view today. California in 1900 was NOT what it is today. In 1900 would it even be conceivable that an elected American President would have Afro-American ancestry?

So why would we analyze this speech given in 1900 America with attitudes of today? Anyone today talking about race-mixing and deterioration of society would be considered a nut. But those were the beliefs of America in the 1900's. Those were the issues confronting British India. Those were issues which made for a topic of conversation. What strikes most prominently about it all, was Swami Vivekananda was the "dark-skinned foreigner" giving the speech to basically white Americans. By what convoluted logic does his speech become the promotion of light-skinned brahmins against dark-skinned races? It's an obvious distortion of context.

Swami Vivekananda was NOT promoting racism and slavery being such a vocal advocate against the same transgressions visited upon India by the colonial British. It's really a juvenile insult to make the claim. There's no ulterior agenda of world dominance by the Aryan brahmin race to exploit and oppress the other races and varnas. That's a British invention to instigate India against itself.

It's just so out of touch with the reality which was the opposite. Swami Vivekananda Ji spoke out against the racism of his time in a way to promote nationalism, unity and spiritual respect for human beings. This is very clearly the legacy of Swami Ramakrishna Ji, his Guru.

TEACHINGS OF SWAMI VIVEKANANDA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOuMYJDNc-8

devotee
20 September 2009, 11:26 PM
Very informative thread, Harjas Kaur ji ! Thanks. :)

OM

Sagefrakrobatik
21 September 2009, 11:57 AM
Thanks for the detailed response I will be sure to read it all when the time affords it.

harekrishna
26 September 2009, 03:23 AM
Dear Harjas Kaur Ji,
Detailed and extremely good response.
Hare Krishna

ranjeetmore
21 November 2009, 07:06 PM
I absolutely LOVE reading the quotes of Guru Nanak(?)

the way he has addressed Sri Rama and sri Krsna is just marvellous.

This great saint actually met Sri Gauranga !!! and they danced together..Oh,How wonderful !!!!

sambya
24 November 2009, 03:40 AM
thanks to harjas kaur ji for presenting the case to beautifully .

to sagefarkrobatik ,

if u isolate some sentences and paragraphs from a speech that actually spans over 3 hours or sometimes 3 days then it is obvious and very easy to derive wrong meanings out of it . in order to interpret the sentence correctly the entire speech has to read and the true context in which it was being spoken found out . neither the authuor nor u have bothered to do that .

perhaps it would be helpfull , if you take up a little pain and grant some 'time' to read through the post of kaur ji and take up complete works of vivekananda himself for a basic reading .

best of luck ...............

TatTvamAsi
24 November 2009, 01:55 PM
Namaste,

Incredible posts Harjas Kaur ji!

Namaskar.

anupj
25 November 2009, 02:06 PM
yes really incredible post, i had no idea about sanatan sikhism, if possible, do make a separate thread(or point me to the one if it already exists) on sanatan sikhism

Sagefrakrobatik
01 January 2010, 03:39 PM
Well I finally read your rebutal and I think you are correct. After I read the article and before i read your response in its entirety I looked up the authors refrenced in the article on wikipedia and read the same criticism about their scholarship. I guess we should take into consideration the historical context of the article. The tone of the speeches would be different if the audience was different.

Also regarding the claim that RamaKrishna is God Isnt there a part of the Gospel of Ramakrishna where RamaKrishna attempts to disprove his "Divinity" when he breaks his arm.

As far as RamaKrishna's sexuality is concerned unless he was a child molester i dont see it as a problem. There is a book written called the "Intimate Life of Abraham Lincoln" that posits Abraham Lincoln was a homosexual.

Some liberal scholars go as far as to say that David and Johnathan from the bible shared homosexual love.

Personally I am unconcerned with whether or not Ramakrishna was attracted to men or woman because I have no problem with homosexuality. Unless it could be shown that he was extremely promiscuous in which case I would say that this is a major chink in his moral armor.

There is one point I wanted to quote you on and perhaps try to explain it in another way



Where in the Indian Constitution is slavery legal as claimed in the article that India has 600 million slaves? Shudra means lower caste artisans, workers, and manual laborers. How many manual laborers are in the United States? You see, this is rhetorical speech intended to create a negative impression.



I think what is meant here is forced labor. Many migrants are illegally forced into labor against their will. They are not officially slaves (meaning the property of someone else) but they are treated as such. The only difference is that slavery was legally recognized. For a better understanding of this look into the lack of labor mobilitiy imposed on Indonesian migrant workers in Malaysia. These labors were under strict rules on who and how they worked they were not allowed to change jobs.

I am going to revisit the article I posted more carefully keeping in mind what you have posted.

Thank You