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Star
08 September 2009, 12:05 PM
Namaste :)

I've just been sent an email (from my mum) which I felt I should share with the forum community here...I must say it made me feel sick and even a bit angry!

There's a TV programme being shown on tv now (like a soap opera kind of thing), and about half of it is (supposedly) set in India. I thought they captured some aspects of Indian culture quite nicely (albeit often in a fairytaleish manner...as one would expect from a soap opera), more specifically the worshipping of God. Someone decided to put together a slideshow with pictures of what they call the "Real India". I'm unable to post the actual file here as I can't figure out how to edit the Powerpoint file (it's not in English), so I'll just post some of the sentences used there. Bear in mind this slideshow was put together by no less than...guess what, a Catholic bishop. Yeah.

"This country has 1,1 billion inhabitants, 92% of which are considered poor or very poor by the United Nations."

"The streets are filled with rubbish, and there's no hygiene whatsoever in their cooking of food."

"Animals walk and excrete their waste anywhere, even outside people's houses, because many of them are considered gods, like cows."

"Beyond their sumptous monuments, lies the misery caused by the caste system supported by their treacherous, morbid, hypnotising religion."

"The real scenes for 90% of Indians will never be show on this TV show, as their aim is to glamourise the Indian "gods", which have led the country to be one of the most miserable, unhygienic, polytheist countries of the world."

"They believe the Ganges River represents the beginning and end of life, so they'll toss their dead people there. The "gods" rule there. The River is extremely dirty, full of rubbish, waste products and corpses floating by all the time. And people will go and bathe there, drink from there and perform their rituals there, at the margins of that putrefied "god"."

"The United Nations have sent huge sums of money for sewage systems around the river to be built, but religious leaders have denied it, they said the river doesn't need it, because the river is already a god. And as it's a "god", everything can be tossed in it, because as a "god" it has the power to cleanse itself without our help."

"As such, people and corpses are side by side in their "sacred" river, where they throw their corpses so that the "god" comes and take them."

"Their religion and numberless gods are worthless in guiding those people in the way of good sense, equality and hygiene. We must show them the truth."

"When the time comes, will the Indian "gods" and rituals save you? The Bible says in Hebrews 9:27 that Man is destined to die only once, and then face Judgement. Who can save you from the Final Judgement? What can a guru do for you? Is there any hope for you? The Bible says the salary of sin is death...but God's free gift is the eternal life in Jesus Christ, Our lord. He said I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father unless through Me." more (http://www.slideshare.net/carlosphran/a-india-da-tv-e-a-india-real-1446106#)


Urgh, I still feel a bit nauseous...

Eastern Mind
08 September 2009, 01:17 PM
Vanakkam:

Welcome back to the forums. I remember selling my old Peugeot car to this fundamentalist. When we test drove it, I still had my Murugan picture on the dashboard. Pardon me for saying so, but what a condescending pompous ignorant a.. hole. lol He said, "What's that? A rock? You worship a rock. How stupid is that?" At times like this I almost wish TTA was there. lol again.

What a grumpy old man!

Star, you just have to roll with the punches until you can move out and do what you want with your life. We're all in support of you. Keep looking at Ganesha's smiling face and happy dance.

Aum Namasivaya

satay
08 September 2009, 01:55 PM
namaste Eastern Mind,

Your post brought a smile to my face. I can just imagine this guy saying those exact words in the situation you described. Amazing really.

"You worship a rock, How stupid is that?" HAHAHA...

I can imagine a response from TTA, "You worship a dead body, How stupid is that?"

Though if I were in a similar situation, I would have just laughed at the guy (like you did) thinking, 'you will worship this rock too in another lifetime.' :)

For Star, Your post is not in alignment with the forum rules as it will create flames on the board though I will allow it here for a few days as your intent seems to be good.



Vanakkam:

Welcome back to the forums. I remember selling my old Peugeot car to this fundamentalist. When we test drove it, I still had my Murugan picture on the dashboard. Pardon me for saying so, but what a condescending pompous ignorant a.. hole. lol He said, "What's that? A rock? You worship a rock. How stupid is that?" At times like this I almost wish TTA was there. lol again.

What a grumpy old man!

Star, you just have to roll with the punches until you can move out and do what you want with your life. We're all in support of you. Keep looking at Ganesha's smiling face and happy dance.

Aum Namasivaya

sunyata07
08 September 2009, 02:01 PM
Namaste Star,

A month ago this would have made me feel as equally nauseous as you have probably felt. I've come across dozens of similar videos, slides, articles, comments with either the same venomous hatred for "idol-worshippers" or stupendous ignorance on what Indians believe. As to its authenticity on what India is really like, I think a lot of people can easily deduce for themselves that seeing as it comes from a European, Roman Catholic bishop who has most likely never set foot in India, the word "real" in the title "Real India" is probably highly misleading.

Like EM says, roll with the punches! I am just wondering though if your mother sent you that email to show you what kind of fruit-cakes you'll have to face in future, or if it was to goad you back towards Christianity. If it was the latter, I'm not sure she'll do much good convincing you to go back to your old beliefs. :/ The way I see it, it is better that you come across this kind of stuff early on in your pursuit of studying Sanatana Dharma (or whatever other faith you eventually find yourself at peace with), because this world has no shortage of ignorant people who purport to know how and why the universe, life, and everybody and everything in it works. Ironically, these are the exact kind of people who fail to understand themselves. ("Knowing others is wisdom. Knowing yourself is enlightenment." - Lao Tzu)



"their treacherous, morbid, hypnotising religion"


Sorry, but I just had to quote this little beauty of a quote here because it reminded me so strongly of another religion I'm familiar with... :rolleyes: Ah, the irony.

Satay, I was just about to say that. XD

Eastern Mind
08 September 2009, 02:57 PM
Satay: Read the words you addressed me as. lol

Star
08 September 2009, 03:12 PM
Namaste :)

Satay, I'm terribly sorry...I really didn't know! >_< If you'd like me to delete it just let me know, it wasn't my intention whatsoever to spark any sort of religious hatred arguements or anything as such in here, it's such a nice place!

Sunyata, I'm unsure as to what her intentions were...I didn't reply to it and she didn't mention it at dinnertime (though I get a feeling she might when the show is on later, I think...in which case I might have to calmly try and show her she's wrong (or just ignore her :P)...). I googled for that slideshow and the replies to it were frankly creepy, mostly about how "Idol worshippers will forever burn in the dark pits of hell" etc etc.

And..."Easter Mind" got me giggling. :P

satay
08 September 2009, 03:45 PM
namaskar,

We should all be clear that India is a developing country. It is a huge cultural shock for any non-indian who sets foot on it the first time. I know this from very personal experience though I am Indian myself but wife is not.

I am not denying that there is no poverty in India and the traffic is out of control, however, I must say that the poverty situation is getting better. What do you expect from a nation that has been looted of all its material wealth for centuries? The point that I don't get is the obession of non-indians to focus on ills of Indian society. Does it make them feel better when they do this? I wonder...that's the sick part...

Star
08 September 2009, 03:55 PM
Indeed, Satay...and not only they wanted to focus on the ills of Indian society (as you put it), they go a step further and claim that the reason India is a developing country (though they don't call it that, just "unhygienic" etc.) is because of the "myserable polytheism". It confuses me that so often India gets picked upon, yet there are so many other areas that are behind India as far as "development" (in this context) goes, but those are looked upon as "places to help" rather than "places to complain about". I suppose it must be the "Indian polytheism" (as they call it) factor...strange, sick people. :/ *sigh*

OM.

bhaktajan
08 September 2009, 04:34 PM
At least the Bishop is Optimistic. Maybe that letter was written before 9-11.

There are so many new developments in the headlines since —the Bishop's letter could have also been written during Christopher Columbus' time to dissuade Queen Isabel from granting Columbus the funds to explore the New World's riches.


On the Other hand:
This American continent has 1,1 billion inhabitants, 92&#37; of which are considered poor or very ignorant by the Viewers of the Jay Leno & Jerry Springer Chat Shows."

"The streets are filled with rubbish, and there's no hygiene whatsoever in their cooking of illegal immigrants and ex-convict short-order cooks."

"Animals walk and excrete their waste anywhere, even outside people's houses, because many of them are considered gods, like cow-meat —but local law calls for citizens to pick it up and discard with co-mingled recyclables in any trash can used by its legions of manual street cleaners.

"Beyond their sumptous monuments, lies the misery caused by the banking, insurance & innovative bureaucratic system supported by their treacherous, morbid, hypnotizing lawyers."

"The real scenes for 90% of Indians will never be show on this TV show, as their aim is to glamourise the Mexican drug "Lords", which have led the country to be one of the most miserable, unhygienic, Gang-Banging gansta-Rapping countries north of Rio Grand."

"They believe the Rio Grand River represents the beginning and end of life, so they'll toss their dead people there. The "Tax-Laws" rule there. The River is extremely dirty, full of rubbish, waste products and Mafia victims floating by all the time. And people will go and vote there, Cash cheques from there and perform their pre-football rituals there, at the margins of that putrefied "Bay-Watch-goddesses"."

"The Mysterious impotent United Nations have laundered huge sums of money for sewage systems around the river to be built, but Russian bankers & Western Agri-Busness leaders have denied it, they said the river doesn't need it, because the river is already a under-investigation of W.H.O.; And as it's as taking "Gold-fron an Aztec", everything can be tossed in it, because as a "Super-Fund Site" it has the power to cleanse itself without our help from International-Mega-conglomerates."

"As such, people and corpses and CEOs are side by side in their "sacred" river, where they throw their corpses so that the "Daily Tabloid" takes photographs and takes them."

"Their Factory Farming and numberless Pharmaceutical outlets & Media Advertising & Strip-Clubs are worthless in guiding those people in the way of good sense, equality and hygiene. We must show them the truth."

"When the time comes, will the Indian "Doctors & Professors & Gourmet Chefs & Sages" and Traditions save the mlechas? The Bible says in Hebrews 9:27 that Man is destined to die only once, and then face Judgement. Who can save the mlechas from the Final Judgement? What can a Mega-Church-Charismatic-Pentacostalist guru do for you? Is there any hope for stopping World-War IV? The Bible says the salary of sin is death...but Retirement funds are returning large dividends via war-Bonds plus free gift of the indiscernible network of transient ugra-Karma life. Oh Jesus Christ — I am in it way up over my head onward to the way, and the truth, and the life —to pay my taxes, enjoy and publish more propaganda, while I avoid fathering any more kids."

satay
08 September 2009, 05:00 PM
That reminds me, What the heck is UN up to these days anyway? What a bunch of (you know what)...

Whatever happened to all the money that was pumped through them to Tsunami hit countries? What about the loads of money that supposedly is going to Africa through them?

I don't know but there is something fishy about these guys...

devotee
08 September 2009, 11:22 PM
Dear Star,

Please ask those people :

India had a prosperous well managed social structure even during the reign of Chandragupta Maurya in 350 BC. Its empire was many times bigger than any country in the world at that time. What was Europe at that time ?

This India was so prosperous & important to the Europeans for their own prosperity that there was intense rivalry among them to reach India by sea-route. Even the orders in Papal Bull was disobeyed for that (by the British).

How come the same India become so poor ?

Was it because of religion ? I am afraid, Yes. Because our religion taught non-violence. Because our religion taught that our guests are God. Because we strongly believed in a fair war without cheating & use of treachery.

We invested heavily in our spiritual pursuit than invention of war machines. We strongly believed, because of teachings in our religion that this world is a temporary place for all of us & the entire earth is a family (Vasudhaiva kutumkam).

======================

Please read Indian history & know how those who came as guests & trade partners cheated & looted our country mercilessly for centuries. They not only looted this country but destroyed all economic structure in India so that India became a raw-material supplier & the finished good brought back to India & sold at exorbitant rates.

People who laugh at India's poverty, actually, should be ashamed of inhuman actions of their forefathers who were basically looters & responsible for the present miserable state of this country.

OM

mukunda20
09 September 2009, 04:07 AM
Namaste Star and everyone,
one of my favourite quotes from Bertrand Russell is
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
so whenever you are in doubt of anything, do ask for proof and proper reference.
This is what is missing from the whole powerpoint. anyone can make up tall claims and convincing ones also. but proper back up is required. my refutes are given below for those tall claims.(even though this is not required)
"This country has 1,1 billion inhabitants, 92% of which are considered poor or very poor by the United Nations."
where is the proof? any particular article stating that number(92%).the economy of India is thoroughly stated in this article. economy of a country can never improve when 92% of its people are poor or very poor. the report of World Economic forum is below
http://www.weforum.org/en/events/ArchivedEvents/IndiaEconomicSummit/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India

"The streets are filled with rubbish, and there's no hygiene whatsoever in their cooking of food."
this is contradicting the first claim. it requires only common sense to understand that a population of 1.1 billion, if there is no hygene whatsoever, then diseases can spread like rapid fire and cause huge life loss(which would make the population less day by day). but in the chart in the link below only shows a positive growth rate in the past 50 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:India-demography.png
"Animals walk and excrete their waste anywhere, even outside people's houses, because many of them are considered gods, like cows."
the first part is true, we do have a lot of animals in India.for the second part, even today in many parts of India(rural mostly) every day the house front is washed with water and cow dung is spread like paint over the floor. the reason being, cow dung acts as a natural insecticide and pesticide. i.e it prevents insects from entering the house where most of the crops are kept as storage.this is just one of the reasons. (the more advanced version is the insecticide that is obtained nowadays through spray cans throughout the world).

"Beyond their sumptous monuments, lies the misery caused by the caste system supported by their treacherous, morbid, hypnotising religion."
how on earth is monuments connected to caste system. this only shows two things.the author is doing.1: being envious of the rich heritage. 2: trying to do propaganda of his\her religion by showcasing the ill effects of the Indian society. moreover the shallowness of the author gets reflected by the funny words that are used here. for more information about the caste system, please refer to my answer in this topic
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=31263#post31263

"The real scenes for 90% of Indians will never be show on this TV show, as their aim is to glamourise the Indian "gods", which have led the country to be one of the most miserable, unhygienic, polytheist countries of the world."
no points to guess what the author is trying to stress. if India was so miserable as the author stated, why on earth would India's name be on the news about some thing or the other(regarding progress, development etc). it should have been in the news for all the wrong reasons. the real fact about Sanathana Dharma is that the search for truth is everyones goal. and throughout its history, people following Sanathana Dharma have never forced their opinions down the throat of others nor have gone for expansion around the world.
more about the Sanathana Dharma is discussed here
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4480
please dont think i am trying to promote my threads, I just am trying to quote references and felt that if someone were to be blamed later, it would gladly be me.

"They believe the Ganges River represents the beginning and end of life, so they'll toss their dead people there. The "gods" rule there. The River is extremely dirty, full of rubbish, waste products and corpses floating by all the time. And people will go and bathe there, drink from there and perform their rituals there, at the margins of that putrefied "god"."
its the ignorance of people which drives them to throw half burnt bodies into the Ganga thinking that the sins will be washed away by this, no point in agruing against that. but credit has to be given where its due." Ganga self-purifying quality leads to oxygen levels 25 times higher than any other river in the world". more given in the article below.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17134270

"The United Nations have sent huge sums of money for sewage systems around the river to be built, but religious leaders have denied it, they said the river doesn't need it, because the river is already a god. And as it's a "god", everything can be tossed in it, because as a "god" it has the power to cleanse itself without our help."
the author seems to be cashing on the UN for fallacies of his. hope he\she does not get sued by the UN for spreading lies like this.

"As such, people and corpses are side by side in their "sacred" river, where they throw their corpses so that the "god" comes and take them."
I wonder where the author got this information. the world is full of mysteries.

"Their religion and numberless gods are worthless in guiding those people in the way of good sense, equality and hygiene. We must show them the truth."
my only response would be "Truth doesn't need publicity, propaganda nor even conversion".

"When the time comes, will the Indian "gods" and rituals save you? The Bible says in Hebrews 9:27 that Man is destined to die only once, and then face Judgement. Who can save you from the Final Judgement? What can a guru do for you? Is there any hope for you? The Bible says the salary of sin is death...but God's free gift is the eternal life in Jesus Christ, Our lord. He said I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father unless through Me."
I don't like to comment on any other religion, but a doubt ponders in my mind. if everyone were to be judged on the final Judgement day, where would all those who died long before the judgement day be placed until then. in case they were temporarily placed in either heaven or hell, then whats the use of judgement day. this is a circular dependency deadlock. anyway, i don't know anything about other religions, so might as well stay quiet.
please correct me if wrong in any of my refutations.
Best Regards,
mukunda

nac
09 September 2009, 04:27 AM
Satyameva Jayate

RamaRaksha
09 September 2009, 05:46 AM
Star: Don't get sick, get even!

I do think it is wrong for Hindus to sit around and simply wring their hands while other religions continue to their proselytization activities. I do believe that we should too, after all, if not for Sankaracharya's proselytization efforts, would we be Hindus today?

At one time I happened to pass by 3 muslims, one was black, the other white and the third was Asian like me. I did feel jealous, the face of Hinduism is very brown and this needs to change. It also helps in fighting propaganda and abuse directed at our religion, because we are concentrated in one country, it is easy for our opponents to do so.

We need to talk about Hindu Values, why our values are different and better. For a start talk about the Buddha. Had he been born almost anywhere else, he might have been tortured to death and there would be no Buddhism today! Maybe no Sikhism, Jainism, Zoarashtrism either!

It is not a coincidence that while other parts of the world are limited to one religion each, India has always been a polyglot of hundreds of faiths!

Or how about the fact that we are the only major religion to pray to a female form of God. Other religions have lowered women to a second-class status. God can only be a man. The fact is that these religions are simply regurgitating the views of their day.

The amazing this here is that it Hinduism that is much older! Truly divine inspiration at work here.

devotee
09 September 2009, 05:57 AM
Namaste Mukunda,

It was a nice post with valuable information.

India's today's condition can be better gauged with these facts :

1. That today India is one of the major lenders & not a borrower from IMF. This year they have promised to contribute 10 Billion dollars to IMF.

2. India is one of 10 highest foreign exchange reserves holders in the World.

3. I remember a recent case on a World Bank funded project in India wherein World Bank had a share of 10 &#37; from IBRD loan. They indulged in their usual arm-twisting tactics on procedures etc. on procurement. I shall not mention the name of the Executive Agency here but when it became unbearable, the head of that institution said point blank to the regional head of World Bank that they really didn't need their money ... when they could manage 90% of the funds why not balance 10% ! Within a week, special sanction came from their headquarter, Washington ! Everyone know that they are not for charity here or anywhere but for their business.

4. The importance of India is also reflected from the fact that G-20 today has become more relevant & powerful as compared to G-8 alone.

Anyway, we are taught to be modest when things are going good & not become snobbish like the westerners which is reflected in that writing/slides show.

The time cycle goes on in an up & down motion. Those who are up must go down at some point of time & those who are at the bottom would scale the maximum height when the time comes. After all, who had thought that Roman Empire would ever see such a downfall !

OM

nac
09 September 2009, 07:31 AM
Star: Don't get sick, get even!
For a start talk about the Buddha. Had he been born almost anywhere else, he might have been tortured to death and there would be no Buddhism today!
Yeah right, like Jesus you mean?


Star: Don't get sick, get even!
Or how about the fact that we are the only major religion to pray to a female form of God. Other religions have lowered women to a second-class status. God can only be a man. The fact is that these religions are simply regurgitating the views of their day.

The amazing this here is that it Hinduism that is much older! Truly divine inspiration at work here.
Does Shinto count? Buddhism and Taoism say that the divine is neither exclusively male nor female. Besides, nearly all old religions have goddesses. :)

sunyata07
09 September 2009, 08:40 AM
I don't like to comment on any other religion, but a doubt ponders in my mind. if everyone were to be judged on the final Judgement day, where would all those who died long before the judgement day be placed until then. in case they were temporarily placed in either heaven or hell, then whats the use of judgement day. this is a circular dependency deadlock. anyway, i don't know anything about other religions, so might as well stay quiet


Namaste Mukunda,

Don't worry, you're not the only one who wonders about this - even Christians wonder about this too. I used to ask that question all the time; it made no sense in my mind to have the "heaven, hell, purgatory" realms for souls who had no chance of making contact with the Abrahamic God or even hear of Jesus Christ. And what of people born long before the time God revealed himself to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Are they doomed to an eternity of fire and suffering for being born in the wrong century or millenia? ((This is the exact reason why I started believing that there must be a way for these people to be reborn and get a "second chance" as it were.))

Great post, by the way! Devotee, too. It's not enough to post up a bunch of statistics, without providing the proper context, subject history and most importantly of all, the actual proof of one's findings! I was always awful at statistics in maths, but I fully appreciated the discipline with presentation of any findings I made in scientific experiments. I don't see a single reference in that slideshow. How are we supposed to know which parts are fact and which are fiction? Did you know that 65% of all statistics are made up? Or was it 90%? In which case I could just as easily make up my own slideshow about the sex abuse and child molestation scandals that the Catholic church are trying to hush up.

I'll always remember that handy quote from Mark Twain: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

OM

RamaRaksha
09 September 2009, 08:59 AM
Yeah right, like Jesus you mean?
Does Shinto count? Buddhism and Taoism say that the divine is neither exclusively male nor female. Besides, nearly all old religions have goddesses. :)

I will answer this question backwards, I didn't want to name the religions, but I guess i was in error on that one. I don't mean to set Hinduism apart from every other religion on earth, certainly there are other religions that share Hindu values.

You do read history, right? At the time christianity was born, there were other religions around, and christianity fought its way to the top. The very same people who revel in the story of the early christians being eaten by the lions had no problem doing the same to people of other faiths at a later time. Mexicans were tortured until they converted to the new faith. Indegenous african religions have been totally wiped out today. Christianity and Islam are like big trees that hog all the light, nothing else is allowed to grow underneath.

And then you read the values that these religions preach. There is only one way, our way. If you don't follow our God, watch out! He loves you but you better love him back or else! To me, that's a cult in action.

Contrast this with the values that Hindus preach. All religions are equal and there is no one way to reach God! Only a Hindu would say, "Ishwar, Allah Tere Naam".

Do you really think it is just a coincidence that until recent years western and muslim lands were barren except for one religion? Do you really think 3 or 400 years ago, someone like the Buddha would be allowed to freely propagate his faith in europe or the muslim lands? You can't even do that today in some muslim countries! Carrying the Gita in your hand could get you arrested!

The bottom line is that Abrahamic religions are King religions, God made in the image of a King. There can be only one King, it is not a democracy. This is the reason why when the Taliban imposes sharia law, democracy goes out of the window.

Hinduism/Buddhism are democratic religions, they are teacher religions. When the generals took over Thailand, I predicted that it would not last. I was right, the generals peacefully went back to their baracks.

nac
09 September 2009, 09:46 AM
Sorry for the misunderstanding, RamaRaksha. That's not what I meant by my first comment, however, you might want to review the history of Islamic states. Before the resurgence of fundamentalism in modern times, they used to be the most accepting of other religions in the west, not to mention a powerhouse of science and philosophy. Much more so than Christian nations. For example, modern optics was discovered in medieval Islamic states.

RamaRaksha
09 September 2009, 10:52 AM
No problem nac, I gave rise to your doubts by not being totally clear.

Regarding Islam, I am not so sure that they were so accomodating towards other religions at any point in time. We have in India, people called Parsees, who follow the Zoarashtrian faith, have been living in India for centuries. They were originally people of Iran. Why did they flee iran to come to India? You guessed it, Islam.

I do agree that in matters of science and music, muslims of prior years were much more enlightened.

To me, what is happening today is fear - the world used to be dominated by brawn, but slowly is moving towards being dominated by the brain. Muslim nations seem unable to deal with the changing times. Imagine dealing with a woman as your boss. The more the world moves forward, the more they move backward, shutting their women even more under burkhas.

"The koran holds all the truths known to man", of course it does, it's quite easy to read the koran. Try learning advanced physics.

It scares me as an Indian, to think of what will happen with the muslims in India. They are not as committed towards education as most Hindus are, have larger families and also prefer to keep their women in the house. Hence they keep falling behind, and of course, don't want to take the responsibility. Easy to play the blame game.

nac
09 September 2009, 11:01 AM
RamaRaksha, please do not confuse historical fact with personal opinions, likes and dislikes. I honestly don't think you know much about Islamic history. Study it, (use Wikipedia if you like) come back and re-read my posts without prejudice. Then we can resume our conversation.

_/\_

RamaRaksha
10 September 2009, 12:17 AM
Nac: That is what a forum is for, to air personal opinions. If you want to hear opinions that only agree with yours, maybe you should stop reading my posts.

Looks like you are getting upset, I will stop responding to your posts going forward.

RamaRaksha
10 September 2009, 12:18 AM
You started this thread with a personal opinion and prejudice. Please allow the same freedoms to others.

Hiwaunis
10 September 2009, 01:22 AM
...in which case I might have to calmly try and show her she's wrong (or just ignore her :P)...). I googled for that slideshow and the replies to it were frankly creepy, mostly about how "Idol worshippers will forever burn in the dark pits of hell" etc etc.

And..."Easter Mind" got me giggling. :P

Pranam,
I must admit that I have been curious as to what people think when they say, "Idol worshippers"? Do they have any idea of the benefits of chanting mantras and meditating? Do they know anything about the Gita, Vedas or the MahaBharat?

I renounced Christianity over 20 years ago. I started learning and practicing the Hindu faiths and I have never and will never look back. I get nausea just thinking about that A_ S backwards religion.

If that info made you sick then take a look at this and you will get even sicker. http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/bureau/bwa_2.html. (http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/bureau/bwa_2.html.)

(http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/bureau/bwa_2.html.)


Take a look at all 6 pages. I have pasted some of it below.
My point in posting this url is this (please correct me if I am wrong):


To date I have not come across any Hindu religion that suggests that people conqueor, eliminate, enslave, murder and rape other people. All these sickening things said about India is the result of others trying to conqueor the country. It is like running over someone with your car in the name of religion and then announcing to the world, "look how that person is unfit, deformed, and unable to care for himself. He is like this because of the God that he worships". Of course you leave out the part where you ran over him with your car!


The year was 1637.....700 men, women and children of the Pequot Tribe, gathered for their "Annual Green Corn Dance" in the area that is now known as Groton, Conn.

While they were gathered in this place of meeting, they were surrounded and attacked by mercenaries of the English and Dutch. The Indians were ordered from the building and as they came forth, they were shot down. The rest were burned alive in the building.

The next day, the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony declared : "A day of Thanksgiving, thanking God that they had eliminated over 700 men, women and children. For the next 100 years, every "Thanksgiving Day" ordained by a Governor or President was to honor that victory, thanking God that the battle had been won.

Source: Documents of Holland, 13 Volume Colonial Documentary History, letters and reports form colonial officials to their superiors and the King in England and the private papers of Sir William Johnson, British Indian agent for the New York colony for 30 years. Researched by William B. Newell (Penobscot Tribe) Former Chairman of the University of Connecticut Anthropology Department.

The Pilgrims of New England, who came to this country in 1620, were not simple refugees from England fighting against oppression and religious discrimination. They were political revolutionaries and part of the Puritan movement, which was considered objectionable and unorthodox by the King of the Church of England. They were outcasts in their own country, plotting to take over the government, causing some of the settlers to become fugitives in their own country.

These Puritan Pilgrims saw themselves as the "chosen elect", from the Bibles’ Book of Revelations and traveled to America to build "The Kingdom of God", also from Revelations. Strict with the scripture, they considered an enemy of anyone who did not follow suit. These beliefs were eventually transmitted to the other colonists, and the Puritan belief system quickly spread across the New England area.

If your goal in this life is to be a good person then become introverted and follow Eastern religions and if your goal is to be a bad person then remain extroverted and follow Western religions.

Namaste,

RamaRaksha
10 September 2009, 01:50 AM
Actually the christians have the right idea. They want you to focus on God, not let any idol or an image for that matter, come between you and God. As long as we Hindus realize that the murti itself is not God, then we are not idolators. Just as a holy book, holy place of worship help people focus on God, the murti helps us focus on God.

I usually give the example of a photo. A photo is just a photo, it is not the real person, but tear up the photo of a colleague’s loved one and he may not appreciate it.

Actually Christians have fallen pray to idol worship, IMHO. The pope would refuse God if she were to appear before him in the form of a woman. Most Christians would refuse an Arab-looking Christ. Their holy book, the Bible, has become their idol (unfortunately some hindus and muslims are guilty of the same error). To blindly follow something written in a book, when present knowledge tells us better, is idol worship.

That is why I fully understand why Muslims get so angry when images of Mohammed appeared. We Hindus have gone come to the same conclusion by doing the complete opposite. There are so many image of God, God ultimately becomes formless. It is allright to have an Ishtadaivam, but one should realize that Rama, Krishna, Durga, Laxmi, Allah, Christ are all one and the same.

rkpande
10 September 2009, 02:12 AM
I think things are turning around, president Obama 'Hussein', recently when asked by some school kid as to which historical figure would he like to invite for dinner, Gandhi he said and added it will be a very short dinner though, as he ate very little. He it seems, even has his portrait in his senate office.
More foot soldiers of the papal army are fed up thinking about the enormity of the wait time, before they are sentenced, and have at least started giving the reincarnation theory a look.
Word is slowly becoming flatter, it will not be long when converters will become converted, and may be one day there will be a brown in their white house.

nac
10 September 2009, 02:37 AM
No RamaRaksha, treating our personal opinions as fact is to trap ourselves deeper in the web of illusion. This is applicable to history as well as how upset you think someone else is becoming.

I'm more disappointed than upset actually, because I don't want to hear opinions at all, mine or that of other people. I want to see people letting go their prejudices before the altar of Truth. Sacrificing their petty egos and allowing truth (whatever it may be) to triumph over self-delusion. That would make me very happy indeed.

Still, here's a random reference from a fairly neutral Christian source to bolster my point: (this is not a debate, technically, since we're quibbling over well-established fact)

26 Nov 2001: Islam: What up with that?

Pundits everywhere have been scrambling to learn something about Islam. I'm no exception; I'm reading a couple of books by Bernard Lewis, whose formidable scholarship-- he reads deeply in Arabic, Turkish, and Persian, as well as several Western languages-- makes him a better guide than the usual news reporter recycling the opinions of his interpreter.
The Clash

It seems to be fashionable to think about the world as a clash of civilizations, meaning religions... this allows Islam to take the place of Scary Foreign Menace previously filled by communism, drugs, and Japan. To be effective, the scaremongering must make Islam seem alien and merciless-- a milennial, inscrutable enemy of modernity which has never renounced jihad. And don't forget to use the line "Islam isn't just a religion-- it's a way of life."

If your religion isn't a way of life, it's not much of a religion. The key to understanding Islam is that it's very, very much like Christianity-- not the watered-down kind that offers singing and sleeping twice a year, but the systematic ideology that wants to convert the world to The Way-- "the" here indicating that there is no other Way to worry about. And if you think that "jihad is inherent to Islam", go ask an evangelical about the Great Commission.

There are differences, of course. Historically, for instance, Islam has been much more tolerant. Christian Europe barely tolerated the Jews and suffered no resident Muslim communities at all; Islam gladly accepted resident Christian and Jewish minorities. (Lewis suggests that this has to do with timing. A later revelation can to some extent incorporate an earlier one-- but it will resist one that's later still. Islam hasn't been so accepting of, say, Baha'iism.)

Some commentators like to say that Islam never "separated church and state". This is misleading to the point of uselessless-- for a thousand years Christianity and Christendom were just as inseparable. Indeed, that's why (Tales of Deep Irony!) we have the separation of church and state. Islam never had a 'church'-- it has no priestly hierarchy, no sacraments, no vicar of Muhammad-- so its divisions never turned into schisms, much less the wars that ultimately convinced Europe that state religion was a bad idea.
That old-time medicine

The key point, perhaps, is that for a thousand years Islam saw Christendom-- with a good deal of justice-- as a forgettable pile of barbarism. As one vivid example: a 12th century writer mentions how a Crusader baron summoned a local, Syrian physician when some of his followers were ill. The doctor found a knight with an absess on his leg; he applied a poultice, the absess burst, and the man felt better. He also examined a woman with a "mental disorder"; he prescribed a mild diet. A "Frankish" (European) physician declared that the Syrian obviously knew nothing of medicine. For the knight, he prescribed amputation-- by axe. The amputation took two blows; the second killed the patient. The woman with a mental illness was said to have a devil in her head; he shaved her head, inscribed a cross on it, pulled off the skin to expose the skull, and rubbed it with salt. She died immediately.

Another telltale: Colin McEvedy's map of European cities in 737 shows just two towns with as many as 15,000 inhabitants, neither of them Western: one was Muslim Toledo, the other Byzantine Salonika.

The natural question is, coming from such a trough, why did Europe pull ahead? The old answer would be, because of the Renaissance-- i.e., the rediscovery of ancient learning. But this hardly accounts for the difference: the Muslims had that ancient learning themselves, long before Europe rediscovered it.

A deeper answer might be a differing attitude toward knowledge. In Muslim (especially Sunni) belief, God's authority passed not to a person but to the Muslim community as a whole; (Muslim) tradition is therefore to be respected, and "novelty" (bid`a) is to be distrusted-- if it's not what we've been doing, it's probably unfaithful to God. Once Muslim scholarship had digested the bolus of ancient learning, and careful judgment had answered all the outstanding problems of theology and law, it saw little need for more inquiry. An Ottoman scholar, K&#226;tib &#199;elebi, writing in 1655 about Christianity, relies chiefly on previous works from half a milennium before, and thus carefully tells the story of the Nestorians, and nothing about Protestantism or even the Catholic/Orthodox split. (Science fiction fans may recall the scholars of Asimov's Galactic Empire here.)
The future and how to get there

And why was Europe so (relatively) curious? One reason may be that, for a milennium, it faced a considerable threat in Islam, which had quickly gobbled up half its territory, and as late as 1683 was capable of besieging Vienna. Being number two is a powerful motivation for change. Muslims, by contrast, were the world's leading civilization; they saw little to learn from barbarians and infidels.

They've been awakened since, of course, and now their dilemma is to find a way forward. Fundamentalism is only a fifth or sixth attempt at an answer-- not a very good one, we might say; but look at how long it took the Spanish to learn to calm down after the Reconquista.

(Hint to other pundits: That's a good test case. If your deep insight into Islam would apply to Catholic Spain in 1500 but not today, maybe it isn't as inherent to the faith as you thought.)
Source: http://www.zompist.com/rants.html

PS. Here are a couple of links to get you started:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_medieval_Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_of_the_Islamic_Golden_Age
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Islamic_philosophy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_science

RamaRaksha
10 September 2009, 08:03 AM
nac: There is a fine line between opinion and truth. What you regard as someone's opinion, someone else might see it as the truth. What you are advocating is censorship, because the truth, does not fit your idea of fairness.

I have had differences with others within these forums - but unless they get personally abusive, I have never advocated that they take their opinions somewhere else.

Basically people change over time. At one time, did not Saivaites and Vishnavites battle each other? At one time wasn't the caste systemm much worse than today?

At one time trying to start your own faith in europe will get you killed! Today it is much less so.

The point is that as I have said before, things change, people change over time. You are stuck with quoting history, I am talking about the present day Islam.

RamaRaksha
10 September 2009, 08:05 AM
Please see my post right before rkpande. I actually like the muslim idea of a formless God. There are good and bad things in every religion. One should not be afraid to talk about these things. Certainly people of other religions have not held back when it comes to Hinduism, have they?

mukunda20
10 September 2009, 08:25 AM
Namaste Devotee, Sunyata and others,
Devotee, Great input from your side with regards to Indian progress in the World.
Sunyata, earlier i had a simple doubt, now you have added fuel to the fire.
mukunda

sunyata07
10 September 2009, 11:22 AM
Namaste Mukunda,

My apologies if I have only added further confusion. I'll try and clear it up with my views on the part of Christianity. I can only do so with Christianity with any degree of certainty, as I'm only partially familiar with Judaic and Islamic beliefs on heaven and hell.

Even though a lot of Christians have the mindset that souls go to heaven or hell immediately after they are deceased, the Bible says that the soul goes into a kind of unconscious state of sleep, awaiting Judgement Day when they will be either punished and sent to hell or rewarded for doing good in their lives and allowed into heaven. According to traditional Christian theology, heaven and hell are not pit-stops before Judgement Day - they are the final destinations of a soul. The opposite of this belief is often portrayed in popular media in the West - the idea of a soul going straight to heaven or hell after they die. Purgatory, or Limbo, is a kind of intermediate state of neither heaven or hell, where souls have a chance to purify themselves and attain admittance to heaven. I'd imagine this is the place Christians believe souls who are born never hearing of the Bible or of the "true" God will go.

And while I'm trying not to complicate matters any more than they are, some Christian denominations believe that torment in hell is only temporary and that God will ultimately destroy all sinners and leave only the pious to live on in immortality. Other Christians are opposed this idea, believing that hell is eternal punishment for condemned souls.

mukunda20
11 September 2009, 03:21 AM
Namaste Sunyata,
thanks for the valuable information. in most of the cases, its belief which leads a person to think one way or the other right. but i am sort of confused with regard to this mindset of such people who are well accomplished in their careers( means, they have used their brains throughout the way), but when it comes to faith, why should it be just blindly believing whatever is told. doesn't it take away the gift of asking questions and gaining more knowledge. in case of people who think this earth is 5000 years old, they shouldn't be allowed to travel anywhere in transport vehicles which uses fossil fuels( everyone very well knows that fossils take millions or years to become fuel. atleast more than 5000 years for sure).this type of selective usage of brain mixed with propaganda of faith on others is what i feel is destroying more people than the number of people being born.
mukunda

Eastern Mind
11 September 2009, 07:18 AM
You started this thread with a personal opinion and prejudice. Please allow the same freedoms to others.

Please go read the original post, and the name of the poster.

Aum namasivaya

RamaRaksha
12 September 2009, 01:54 AM
EM, that was my mistake. Sorry about that.

RamaRaksha
12 September 2009, 01:57 AM
Sunyata: I am not trying to be mean or anything, but when does the soul manifest itself if you are a christian? After a person dies the popular view is that he goes to heaven where he meets his loved ones, ie people in human form? Also if he goes to hell, he endures torture, human torture? Where is the place for a soul?

As for the Hindu equivalent, The Atman, like discarding clothes, the Atman discards one body and takes on another.

sunyata07
12 September 2009, 12:52 PM
Namaste RamaRaksha,

If I have understood your post correctly, Christians believe the soul is immortal (some Christian denominations thoroughly reject this notion) but only through the grace of God. Basically, it's not immortal of itself - it isn't independent from God. They view the soul as more of a life-force that requires God's grace to grant either salvation or damnation, depending on the extent of the sins that person has committed in life.

However, and this is the important bit, what distinguishes the Christian notion of the eternal nature of the soul from other religions, is their idea of the resurrection of the body. Christians would see the body and the soul as being unified, where both elements are essential components of that individual (something I'd like to mention seems vaguely similar to ancient Egyptian beliefs of the soul and the body being inextricably linked). Christians believe that on the Day of Judgement, all souls will be resurrected from the dead; Jesus Christ will physically raise the dead from their graves (hence, perhaps, the fear so many Westerners have with cremation of the body). At this point, while the Bible states that the body will undergo a "change" and go into a kind of glorified state that will know no sickness or physical discrepancy, the interpretation of what the body will look like after death is a matter of individual interpretation. Some Christians believe you will look as you did on earth; others, believe you can appear in any form you wish. I don't think it really matters to Christians, as a majority of them believe you will know every person in heaven when you get there.

As for hell, I'm not sure if the tortures described in the Bible were meant to be taken literally. Perhaps, at the time they were written, they were. Some Christians will interpret this either way, again depending on the denomination of the Church. Descriptions of hell in the Bible liken it a number of different things, like a bottomless pit or a lake of fire and brimstone where sinners will burn (this is probably where the popular concept of hell as a place of fire, flame and lava was derived from). Hell is also seen by some as not being an actual place but a state where the soul has to endure eternal separation from God where it is unable to enter paradise. In a metaphorical light, this would the "torment" a soul will have to undergo for all eternity.

The Christian ideology that the soul and body is in total union is quite firmly embedded into the minds of many Christians. It's probably the reason why so many of them are so damn zealous about their beliefs. I suppose, if you look at it from their POV, it's natural they should be a little bit more aggressive about the ways in which they preach and "spread the faith" to people from other religions, often sacrificing tolerance and sensitivity towards others in the process. Unfortunately, the way they see it, they're only going to live once so they've only got one shot to get their message heard by everyone.

RamaRaksha
13 September 2009, 01:21 AM
"The Christian ideology that the soul and body is in total union is quite firmly embedded into the minds of many Christians. It's probably the reason why so many of them are so damn zealous about their beliefs. I suppose, if you look at it from their POV, it's natural they should be a little bit more aggressive about the ways in which they preach and "spread the faith" to people from other religions, often sacrificing tolerance and sensitivity towards others in the process. Unfortunately, the way they see it, they're only going to live once so they've only got one shot to get their message heard by everyone"

I am sorry that just seems like making excuses to get away with bigotry and hatred. You need to be on the other end, then you might change your opinion. What disgusts me is the notion that at some point only christians will be left, everyone else gets death. That's condemning 5 billion people to suffering and death! Great if you are a christian. But what if the muslims are right and then you are part of the 5 billion that are being killed? Suddenly things are not so nice.

Glad that I am a Hindu. After all. even Hitler killed only about 6 milion people. A God who would kill billions of innocent good people is not a God.

Actually I believe there is another reason. Christianity is a King Religion - God made in the image of a King. One becomes a subject or servant of God. A solider of God, has to obey orders, never question. This is why most cults and terrorists come from these religions. It's easy to manipulate somone after they become servants or slaves, instead of people who question.

nac
15 September 2009, 04:48 AM
There is a fine line between opinion and truth.
But... we're talking about simple historical facts here! :confused:


What you regard as someone's opinion, someone else might see it as the truth.
I haven't discussed any of my opinions at all, you know.


What you are advocating is censorship, because the truth, does not fit your idea of fairness.
What are you talking about? What censorship? What fairness? Sorry, but surrealism isn't exactly my cup of fur if you know what I mean. :) All I'm asking is that you base your opinions on the massive mountains of actual evidence collected by historians rather than personal tastes and fancies. And then re-read my posts if possible. This time noticing phrases like "resurgence of fundamentalism in modern times".


I have had differences with others within these forums - but unless they get personally abusive, I have never advocated that they take their opinions somewhere else.
That's what you should have done if they tried to counter facts with fancy.


The point is that as I have said before, things change, people change over time. You are stuck with quoting history, I am talking about the present day Islam.
Or I'm looking at the overall picture, while you're stuck with present day Islam. ;)

TatTvamAsi
16 September 2009, 12:38 PM
Boy you have been fed to the hilt with constant doses of bilge, almost as much as the feces that fills mecca and medina.

PISSlam and "accepting" are oxymoronic. Their ideology, in fact all Abrahamic ideologies, are exclusivist and totally non-accepting of other philosophies, lifestyles, and viewpoints. You are absolutely blinded by the lib-left idiots who think "everyone is equal" and "all paths are equal" that you fail to see the series of historical events that darken the entire Abrahamic family of faiths from day one!

Facts did you say? I'm sure real loving and accepting PUSSlims like Timur only killed 100,000 "infidel" Hindus in one day out of compassion! And that Afghan untouchable scumdog Muhammad of Ghor killed Prithviraj Chauhan, a lion among men, out of acceptance! And the 80 million Hindus that have been slaughtered over the past 1200 years was just out of "philosophical principles" that the PUSSlim untouchables believed in! :rolleyes:

What about the 100s of thousands of Hindus from Kashmir who were slaughtered and driven away by the followers of the 'religion of peace' PISSlam? Of course, none of that matters. Only the 1700 or so untouchables (PUSSlims) that were killed in 2002 in Gujarat after murdering 58 innocent Hindu women and children matter! Only the rat-bastard christian missionary scum who plotted and murdered Swami Laxmananda and his workers only matter.

After all, didn't the wonderful USCIRF, staffed by fundamentalist christians and one muslim, put India on a 'watch list' about religious freedom and highlighted only the retaliation of the Hindus in both Gujarat & Orissa?! They couldn't care less about the christian terrorists in the North-Eastern region of India and the muslim terrorist in Kashmir and other parts of India!

Before the muslims and christians are dealt with accordingly (:)), the pseudo-secular "Hindus" in India must first be dealt with! They pose the greatest threat to the stability of India and the survival of Hindus and Hinduism.

What else can you expect from asuras (demons)? Actually, some demons like Bali were good so I perhaps should not insult demons by calling PUSSlims/christians 'demons'. ;)

"Powerhouse" of what? Science? Philosophy? hahahha...

Tell me, do you have sawdust in your skull?

The middle east was, is, and always will be a putrid hell-hole; a breeding ground for hate-mongering terrorists who justify murder, plunder, and rape of the so-called 'non-believers'. That charlatan jesus and his cronies said the very same things that cause havoc between different communities.

The desert-rat PUSSlims learnt everything from India (Hindus) via trade routes! Even they acknowledge that! Although, I do give them credit for inventing hate-filled terrorism. At least they have something to their credit! :D

Last but not least, are you Indian (Hindu)? If so, you have been thoroughly brainwashed by the idiotic christian-funded education system that the congress govt. supports so you have no clue about Indian history. I bet you would even eulogize that mass-murderer and pedophile worshiper Akbar! Such idiocy can only be found in India, and may be Berkeley. :D

If you're not Indian (Hindu), here's a suggestion: SHUT UP!

JAI HIND!

Namaskar.



Sorry for the misunderstanding, RamaRaksha. That's not what I meant by my first comment, however, you might want to review the history of Islamic states. Before the resurgence of fundamentalism in modern times, they used to be the most accepting of other religions in the west, not to mention a powerhouse of science and philosophy. Much more so than Christian nations. For example, modern optics was discovered in medieval Islamic states.

Sagefrakrobatik
19 September 2009, 08:55 AM
guys guys guys we are getting off tangent here. How did we ever get to talking about Islam? Well if you want to continue this debate I will post a thread in the Islam section where it belongs. so let all discussions of Islam cease from now on in here. Instead lets focus on the content of the original post.

Now i have only been to India once and I must say that especially in the more urbanized areas trashed seemed to be ubiquitious.

Another part of the original post i want to comment on his than animals shatting on the road. I have a dog that i walk and he sometimes has to shat. So I just let him do his thing but i rarely if ever pick it up.