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sinner10
09 September 2009, 01:45 AM
In the heat of the moment and due to bad company unfortunately I engaged in sex with a prostitute. Needless to say, I did not enjoy the experience and felt very guilty. In the company of the same person I again had sex with a prostitute few months later. I was thinking I have already become impure so it does not matter.

But after that, I realized that I am falling into a spiritual abyss and decided that I should refrain from any sexual acts until marriage. Note that both my sexual acts were protected and I am free from any disease. All this happened two years ago.

However, recently, my parents have found a girl for my marriage and I am sure she is a virgin. I am feeling very guilty and am unable to decided whether I should proceed with the marriage. I can not tell my parents as it would hurt them much (to the possibility of a heart attack). I don't think I will ever get married if I tell this to my prospective wife.

Please guide me as to what should I do. What does hindu dharma say in this regard? And how can I repent for this act of adharma?

RamaRaksha
09 September 2009, 05:14 AM
First of all you need to stop beating yourself over this, you are overreacting a bit. As long as you are disease free, you should definitely go ahead with the marriage, and no, do not tell your wife of your experiences.

Not that I am saying you did nothing wrong, you might very well might have caught a horrible disease like AIDS, it's lucky that you did not. Also many of these women are poor women, lured into the sex trade against their will.

If you want to atone for your sins, get involved. Join an organization that helps these unfortunate women break away from their pimps and start a new life.

Stop dwelling on the bad. There is an old saying - Opportunity comes disguised as trouble. Here is your opportunity to do something good for society. God has steered you on to the right path. Don't let the opportunity pass you by.

sinner10
09 September 2009, 07:29 AM
Thanks Rama.

I am a Hindu born in a traditional devout Hindu family. Though I never took part in formal prayers etc., I have mostly been a god-fearing, conscientious, law-abiding gentleman. Except for the brief moral transgression as mentioned above.

Yes you are right.. it is a divine opportunity to do some good to the society. Just that I will need to learn to free myself from the guilt. This feelings of guilt has become more acute since the time I met my prospective wife.

I hope I will live a life useful to the society and on the path of Dharma.

Eastern Mind
09 September 2009, 07:31 AM
Namaste Sinner10:

Firstly, Hinduism doesn't really have a concept of sin in the same way as the Western Abrahamic religions do. Not in the way that God will punish you. We have lifestyle tenets to guide you such as the Tirukkural, and many more. We have the wise elders who live amongst us. And we have anava, roughly translated as 'darkness' or plain stupidity. So your selection of a name itself is telling, in a way. You acted out of ignorance.

You will get different advice no doubt from different people. Then it will be up to you, and you alone to decide. My advice is to tell the truth, to everyone. This is takinjg responsibility for your actions, acting like a man, not some schoolboy lieing to his teacher that he didn't swear just to keep himself out of trouble. Telling the truth in serious situations like this is all over our scripture. It is okay, however, to lie, when it is for the good of someone, such as when a murderer enters your house, and asks, "Where are the children?" Then you can lie.

Saying that your parents may die of a heart attack is the mind's way of convincing yourself to lie to them. It is doubtful that this would actually bring on a heart attack, although the possibility would exist, and I could be wrong.

Put your shoes in the girl's feet. What happens if she ever finds out? Suppose this is after the kids arrive. Wouldn't you rather know of your spouse's past? Also, imagine if although you say you KNOW she's a virgin, that she isn't. Imagine in her high school days, she had sex with a guy just out of a moment of lust because the guy was 'hot'. Would you call off the marriage?

In your next matrimoonial ad, if this one doesn't work out, I suggest you place it yourself, state the case of having past sexual encounters (not necessarily the details) and state that you will consider someone with similar experiences. I'm sure there are plenty of young women out there who have to lie about their virginity too, just because everyone around wants to lie, or can't handle the truth. Then the double standard is gone, and you can live with yourself for being honest.

Best wishes.

Aum Namasivaya

sinner10
09 September 2009, 07:49 AM
Thanks Eastern Mind,

I could have done it except for the possibility of my parents finding this out. Also, I am not sure if I would ever find a girl willing to marry me if I declare about my past experiences.

However, I think confidentially telling my prospective wife that I am not a virgin (and telling just that) would not do much harm. If she is progressive enough, she might still go ahead with the marriage, though it is very unlikely.

devotee
09 September 2009, 09:34 AM
Namaste Dear,

My advice is :

Just forget that you are a sinner. "It is a sin to call man a sinner" - declared Swami Vivekananda. Even if you think rationally, what you did harmed only one person that is you .... you didn't harm anyone else. You gave money to the girl (better not to call her prostitute) for satisfying your sexual urge. That must have mitigated her sufferings.

You put your health at risk. You attracted the dirt of vasanaas ( impressions in mind). You have already harmed yourself .... don't harm any more by brooding over the past. The Divine Mother still loves you.

What to do now ?

a) Shall you go & tell everyone ?

My advice is --- NO ! The Indian society is not as tolerant as the western society is. This stigma will follow you everywhere in taunts of people around you & can throw you in despair & push you further towards in the company of people who encouraged you to do this.

You must forgive yourself. And forgive in a manner as if this never happened. In the bargain, promise yourself or the deity whom you love that you won't do it again.

Never tell this to your wife too or even your friend who don't know this. It is all very nice to say that we should be Truthful & all .... but believe me, it is only going to ruin your life. When things are going well, she won't mind but whenever there will be a dispute between you too, it would come out in the worst possible manner. And because you are already guilt-ridden it will break you psychologically/emotionally.

b) What else to do ? :

Observe fasting for a day & spend the whole day in japa & prayer. That will always remind you of your vow. It would also make you mentally stronger.

c) Regarding helping the destitute girls in brothels etc. :

It is not necessary. You don't owe anything to them. If you can do it, it is nothing like it. But certainly don't do it for getting rid of your guilt consciousness. Just get rid of it. You don't have to do anything else.

d) YOU MUST CHANGE YOUR COMPANY :

Remember, environment is, usually, stronger than will power. So, accept that your will power is not strong enough to attract unnecessary problems. So, keep yourself out of all surroundings, company which lure you into such activity.

Be in the company of good people who are stronger in will power & have high moral values. This will increase your will power. Read good books like Bhagwad Gita, Upanishads etc.

The real spirituality starts with belief in your Self. This Self is ever untainted. Meditate upon that & know that Self.

OM

Eastern Mind
09 September 2009, 03:13 PM
Vannakkam again:

I am wondering why sexual encounters are taken so lightly? So visiting a prostitute is a small thing, one we can easily put out of out minds? As if there are no karmic repercussions? I think it is telling by the number of answers you have gotten here. You have asked a serious down to earth practical question, and yet members would rather ignore this, and go argue about how to define God. To me that says something about how to avoid hard circumstances and ideas.

Whats done is done. I agree that you have to try your best not to carry guilt. Guilt is unhealthy.

But you do have to accept that it was adharmic. Quite. What would be stopping you now from returning to same company during your marriage in times of stress, or during a post natal time when for the mother's health, you need to abstain for up to 2 months.

A sexual connection is psychic. You have psychic ties to that person, or persons whom you have had sex with. Every single emotion she has, and indeed her other 'customers' have will have subtle impact on you, even though you won't sense it. Its not something you can just brush aside. Your potential spouse needs to know this about your character. She will either forgive it or not. Perhaps you can just tell her, not the parents, and take the chance that they don't find out, but at least she deserves to know. Have you had an AIDS test? If not, I suggest you get one.

If you want to do penance, think of something more austere than fasting for a day, like a yatra in India, or kavadi if you're familiar with that.

This problem is a big one with AIDS rampant in India in the youth, and promiscuity escalating because of birth control, noit to mention the influence of Bollywood, and the loose morals of the west. How long will it be before unmarried virgins just don't exist? How long will Hindus continue to deny the problem, and keep sweeping it under the rug?

I am sorry to be so blunt and honest, but I come from a traditional path, and its hard for me to see it so lightly.

I do wish you the best, but accepting who you are is a start.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
09 September 2009, 07:11 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté S10,


In the heat of the moment and due to bad company unfortunately I engaged in sex with a prostitute. Needless to say, I did not enjoy the experience and felt very guilty. In the company of the same person I again had sex with a prostitute few months later. I was thinking I have already become impure so it does not matter.

But after that, I realized that I am falling into a spiritual abyss and decided that I should refrain from any sexual acts until marriage. Note that both my sexual acts were protected and I am free from any disease. All this happened two years ago.

However, recently, my parents have found a girl for my marriage and I am sure she is a virgin. I am feeling very guilty and am unable to decided whether I should proceed with the marriage. I can not tell my parents as it would hurt them much (to the possibility of a heart attack). I don't think I will ever get married if I tell this to my prospective wife.

Please guide me as to what should I do. What does hindu dharma say in this regard? And how can I repent for this act of adharma?

I see many have commented on your post... and, I do not have your answer. Let me ask, what is the lesson you have learned? That is where you will find the value of that experience.


This post may help: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3912

I have read and heard, the greatest sin is not knowing your SELF.
All experiences are here to lead you to that realization.

praṇām

vcindiana
09 September 2009, 07:14 PM
This is indeed a test to all of us in this forum, which supposedly seeks to understand and uphold “Dharma”. I am really startled reading the responses/advices given to this “Sinner”.
These are my general observations, you be the judge.

I see how Indians and the person from west (EM) would respond differently. This tells me this is nothing to do with Hinduism or Christianity. This is how we of Indian origin were brought up differently in our values and culture. The “sinner” has been told not call himself as a sinner and just to stop beating himself. As EM puts it we cannot downplay this issue. He says “to tell the truth, to everyone, to take responsibility for his actions, acting like a man”. I fully agree with him. He goes on to say the harm that potentially would be done to his future life partner. Yes these days we see AIDS hepatitis. Herpes etc, let alone huge emotional and psychological problems.
A life partner has every right to know these. EM advises him about getting medical testing and seek his partner on his own staying honest.
This is hard for most traditional Indians who seek for arranged marriages. But this is indeed practical and wisest I advice observed. It is hard to handle the truth.

For me Dharma is to be true to be one self. How can we just keep talking about Dharma but not practically following Dharma?

My advice ? Follow truth on your own. Stick to Dharma. Do not escape. Only God forgives you

Love.... VC

yajvan
09 September 2009, 08:18 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté

Not even one blade of grass moves without His knowing.

There is little to no value ( IMHO) to bring additional angst to a person who knows they have done something that is not right. What matters is what happens now; how does one now change their behavior for the better. The past cannot be un-done.

praṇām

Eastern Mind
09 September 2009, 08:59 PM
This is indeed a test to all of us in this forum, which supposedly seeks to understand and uphold “Dharma”. I am really startled reading the responses/advices given to this “Sinner”.
These are my general observations, you be the judge.

I see how Indians and the person from west (EM) would respond differently. This tells me this is nothing to do with Hinduism or Christianity. This is how we of Indian origin were brought up differently in our values and culture. The “sinner” has been told not call himself as a sinner and just to stop beating himself. As EM puts it we cannot downplay this issue. He says “to tell the truth, to everyone, to take responsibility for his actions, acting like a man”. I fully agree with him. He goes on to say the harm that potentially would be done to his future life partner. Yes these days we see AIDS hepatitis. Herpes etc, let alone huge emotional and psychological problems.
A life partner has every right to know these. EM advises him about getting medical testing and seek his partner on his own staying honest.
This is hard for most traditional Indians who seek for arranged marriages. But this is indeed practical and wisest I advice observed. It is hard to handle the truth.

For me Dharma is to be true to be one self. How can we just keep talking about Dharma but not practically following Dharma?

My advice ? Follow truth on your own. Stick to Dharma. Do not escape. Only God forgives you

Love.... VC

VC: Thank you for this. But lets not forget that the OP is also living in the US, so by this he is part western also. I do not really know the details. And yes I agree with Yajvan that the past is the past. The OP does need to move on, with also as Yajvan has said, lessons learned ... hopefully.

Aum Namasivaya

devotee
09 September 2009, 10:07 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté

Not even one blade of grass moves without His knowing.

There is little to no value ( IMHO) to bring additional angst to a person who knows they have done something that is not right. What matters is what happens now; how does one now change their behavior for the better. The past cannot be un-done.

praṇām

That shows your compassionate heart of a saint, Yajvan ji. I love you. :)

Regards,

OM

yajvan
09 September 2009, 10:28 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté devotee,





That shows your compassionate heart of a saint,
Regards,

OM

Your words are too kind. This is what my teacher taught. It is his wisdom we bow to. Yet he too said the same - it is not my wisdom, but my teacher. So , we show respect by admiring the wisdom of the muni's that know. For this we are blessed - and shows the light that is recognized in you.

praṇām

vcindiana
09 September 2009, 10:32 PM
This post raises several practical points.

Dear Yaj quotes Greatest Sin is not knowing self. With due respect to him I take this to the level that " as not knowing self is itself Sin” with no comparison or grading of Sin involved. This gives better understanding for me that all mistakes are made out of ignorance. I am not sure there is any human out there without a mistake in his/her life. I think in that fact there is a specific purpose … at least for me….. I can never be mistake free. (BG 2:47) It teaches me humility.
In this context what right I have in calling the person of this thread that he is doomed or bring additional angst to him who already knows he is guilty? I can only share mistakes I have done and how I have dealt with those.

I am not trying here to condemn that this man “forever guilty”. Err is human. There is nothing wrong in feeling guilty for what we do wrong. The question is how do we rid ourselves of the stain of guilt?
I cannot! I seek God to lift the stain of guilt, God demands honesty that is truth but not perfection (again, well said in BG 2: 47), only in God I find the moral strength. God does forgive my mistakes but also through God I need to take the mistakes seriously to do something to make up for them.
Past thing cannot be undone. True. Here where I differ with Devotee and EM. Instead of doing japa, prayer fasting, Yatra etc... How about contributing some time, energy and money in helping some people to get out of prostitution, or helping a street child or some other public service, not as a penance but as a way of letting one’s good. Noble side emerges from the shadow of that time spent in Brothel.

If he needs help in these ways he can PM me.

Love...........VC

yajvan
09 September 2009, 10:54 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté VC,

I am quite impressed with what you write... if I may let me comment on a few . This is not a debate, but my reactions to what you have offered.
Sin is not knowing self. With due respect to him I take this to the level that " as not knowing self is itself Sin” with no comparison or grading of Sin involved. This gives better understanding for me that all mistakes are made out of ignorance
This is a very correct view - mis-takes come from ignorance. When one is possessed of the SELF, then we are in His Will. Mistakes do not occur. This VC, is 'skill in action' - this is the wisdom Kṛṣṇa offers ( the Bhāgavad gītā 48th verse ) : yogasthaḥ kuru karmānī- established (or steadfast) in yoga ( union) perform actions (karma). You have discovered the answer to your own question.


I am not sure there is any human out there without a mistake in his/her life
Yes, I see this. Some would argue that the mistake occured in a previous life and hence here you are! :)


In this context what right I have in calling the person of this thread that he is doomed or bring additional angst to him who already knows he is guilty? Yes. this too is Kṛṣṇa's guidance.


I can only share mistakes I have done and how I have dealt with those. This is the real position of empathy - knowing from one's own personal experience and relating to others.


Instead of doing japa, prayer fasting, Yatra etc... How about contributing some time, energy and money in helping some people to get out of prostitution, or helping a street child or some other public service, not as a penance but as a way of letting one’s good. Noble side emerges from the shadow of that time spent in Brothel. A noble approach that is practical and should yield good results on multiple levels.

praṇām

RamaRaksha
10 September 2009, 01:10 AM
I do agree with vc. If you really want to get over this, help your fellow man.

All the japas, pujas, prayers in world do not equal just one act of kindness. To me all those gold offerings to the Gods are just a waste of money. Thankfully at least some of the temples are putting these offerings to good use by starting a school or building a hospital.

Let's remember that God is all around us, and can hear us from anywhere. All the temples, churches, moques are for our benefit, God has no use for them. By doing a japa or puja you are only benefitting yourself, plus it seems to be the easy way out.

RamaRaksha
10 September 2009, 01:22 AM
"b) What else to do ? :
Observe fasting for a day & spend the whole day in japa & prayer. That will always remind you of your vow. It would also make you mentally stronger.

c) Regarding helping the destitute girls in brothels etc. :
It is not necessary. You don't owe anything to them. If you can do it, it is nothing like it. But certainly don't do it for getting rid of your guilt consciousness. Just get rid of it. You don't have to do anything else"

Please remember the laws of karma. Is a person took some money without earning it, he must pay it back, regardless if it is in this life or the next.

In this case, how does doing a japa or puja, make things right? A puja is for one's own benefit, God has no use for any puja.

Woking to make things better, maybe this young man can help another not make the same mistake that he did. That is how he can "pay back".

rkpande
10 September 2009, 02:31 AM
dear ss,

remember all sages had a past and all sinners have a future.

Sm is right, don't live with a gilt complex it will harm you physically.

devotee
10 September 2009, 05:03 AM
Namaste RR,


Is a person took some money without earning it, he must pay it back, regardless if it is in this life or the next.

Agreed. But here this young man has not taken anything by force or deceit but by mutual consent by paying for the services. There has been a fair deal, if we consider both the parties. So, he doesn't owe anything to anyone.


In this case, how does doing a japa or puja, make things right? A puja is for one's own benefit, God has no use for any puja.

To understand this, you must understand where the damage is done. The damage is not done to the girl or anyone else. The damage is done to his own "self". Falling to such habits makes the covers of Vassanas stronger ===> your will power gets weaker ====> the Truth gets more obscured ====> you go farther from your True Nature & thus put yourself in the cruel hands of Samsara to teach you lessons. So, there is a need to assert one's supremacy over one's weaknesses ====>

See what Lord Krishna says in BG :

"IndryANi paraNyAhu Indriyebhyah param manah,
Manasastu para buddhiryo buddheh partastu sah ll BG 3.42 ll

The (physical) senses are superior to body; mind is higher than the senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind; and he [the Self] is even higher than the intelligence.

Evam buddheh param buddhwa sansbhyatmAnmAtmnA,
Jahi shtrum mahabAho kAmrUpam durAsadam ll BG 3.43 ll"

Thus knowing one's Self which is more powerful than the senses, mind and intelligence, O mighty-armed Arjuna, one should steady the mind by deliberate spiritual intelligence and thus—by spiritual strength—conquer this insatiable enemy known as lust."

Fasting is for cleansing one's body & mind & for focussing on God or meditating on Self. This is also some sort of penance. Japa & prayer is for seeking God's grace for gaining spiritual strength which can grant one the power to conquer the senses.


Woking to make things better, maybe this young man can help another not make the same mistake that he did. That is how he can "pay back".

There is nothing to be paid back here. The damage has been done to one's own self by adding to weaknesses of mind, intelligence & ignorance of Self & thus creating more favourable environment for sufferings in this world. So, effort is required in that direction.

Helping anyone is good. If he can do it, there is nothing like it. However, imho, there is no need to do it as penance.

I don't claim that what I say is the only way. This is my humble opinion based on my understanding. Let one adopt the way that suits him. May God show the right way to the young man !

OM

rkpande
10 September 2009, 05:49 AM
namaskar Devotee,

I admire your thought process. well said.

Eastern Mind
10 September 2009, 07:17 AM
This post raises several practical points.

Dear Yaj quotes Greatest Sin is not knowing self. With due respect to him I take this to the level that " as not knowing self is itself Sin” with no comparison or grading of Sin involved. This gives better understanding for me that all mistakes are made out of ignorance. I am not sure there is any human out there without a mistake in his/her life. I think in that fact there is a specific purpose … at least for me….. I can never be mistake free. (BG 2:47) It teaches me humility.
In this context what right I have in calling the person of this thread that he is doomed or bring additional angst to him who already knows he is guilty? I can only share mistakes I have done and how I have dealt with those.

I am not trying here to condemn that this man “forever guilty”. Err is human. There is nothing wrong in feeling guilty for what we do wrong. The question is how do we rid ourselves of the stain of guilt?
I cannot! I seek God to lift the stain of guilt, God demands honesty that is truth but not perfection (again, well said in BG 2: 47), only in God I find the moral strength. God does forgive my mistakes but also through God I need to take the mistakes seriously to do something to make up for them.
Past thing cannot be undone. True. Here where I differ with Devotee and EM. Instead of doing japa, prayer fasting, Yatra etc... How about contributing some time, energy and money in helping some people to get out of prostitution, or helping a street child or some other public service, not as a penance but as a way of letting one’s good. Noble side emerges from the shadow of that time spent in Brothel.

If he needs help in these ways he can PM me.

Love...........VC

Nice clear post, VC. I don't think we differ at all. The point is that Sinner needs to do 'something'. This is for personal well-being. He needs to feel emotionally that he has helped alleviate this karma, which by the way, is relatively minor. (compared to violent crime, for instance) Then again, its a tad more serious than saying "I used to smoke cigarettes, now I don't." In some states, prostitution is a legal activity. Again, we don't know the details.

As far as the anti-penance stance goes, I would suggest that one does not underestimate the power of God and prayer. He could ask to have God reduce or even eliminate the guilt in his own mind. I know from personal experience that prayer and penance work. It is not a question of punishing himself, but rather of cleaning the slate so to speak, so that he can move on from the present.

The real deal isn't the past at all. Its the present circumstance, and how to proceed for the future. His parents have done their duty and arranged a marriage for him, and he doesn't know whether to come clean with the situation. I'll give another example. My own son has/had idiopathic thrombosis, a blood condition, that necessitated the removal of his spleen. He has no spleen. The end result is that he is far more susceptible to disease than the normal population. The flu could kill him more easily than anyone else. Entering marriage, should he hide this condition? I think not. The bride had a right to know who she was marrying.

In my opinion, so does Sinner's bride. It is about her right to know. Throughout marriage, and life, we are making mistakes. Big ones, little ones, all kinds. Thats how we learn, as others have said. Most of us (the married ones) would be divorced already if it weren't for the forgiving spouses we all have.

My intention with my somewhat harsher advice is not to make the young man feel bad, but rather the opposite, in the longer time span, of course. We cannot carry guilt. Its simply not healthy. Better to fess up and be guilt free, even if it means we lose this match made for us.

Aum Namasivaya

atanu
10 September 2009, 07:47 AM
Nice clear post, VC. I don't think we differ at all. The point is that Sinner needs to do 'something'. This is for personal well-being. He needs to feel emotionally that he has helped alleviate this karma, which by the way, is relatively minor. (compared to violent crime, for instance) Then again, its a tad more serious than saying "I used to smoke cigarettes, now I don't." In some states, prostitution is a legal activity. Again, we don't know the details.

As far as the anti-penance stance goes, I would suggest that one does not underestimate the power of God and prayer. He could ask to have God reduce or even eliminate the guilt in his own mind. I know from personal experience that prayer and penance work. It is not a question of punishing himself, but rather of cleaning the slate so to speak, so that he can move on from the present.

The real deal isn't the past at all. Its the present circumstance, and how to proceed for the future. His parents have done their duty and arranged a marriage for him, and he doesn't know whether to come clean with the situation. I'll give another example. My own son has/had idiopathic thrombosis, a blood condition, that necessitated the removal of his spleen. He has no spleen. The end result is that he is far more susceptible to disease than the normal population. The flu could kill him more easily than anyone else. Entering marriage, should he hide this condition? I think not. The bride had a right to know who she was marrying.

In my opinion, so does Sinner's bride. It is about her right to know. Throughout marriage, and life, we are making mistakes. Big ones, little ones, all kinds. Thats how we learn, as others have said. Most of us (the married ones) would be divorced already if it weren't for the forgiving spouses we all have.

My intention with my somewhat harsher advice is not to make the young man feel bad, but rather the opposite, in the longer time span, of course. We cannot carry guilt. Its simply not healthy. Better to fess up and be guilt free, even if it means we lose this match made for us.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste All,

I have read all views and this qouted view seems fairly practical and possibly conducive to peace of mind as well as wellbeing of married life. There is one niggling doubt however.

We know the human mind. It is natural to blame the 'other' for all ills of oneself. Though it will depend on the future bride's maturity, yet there is a risk that she gives an acceptance after hearing of the episode, yet may nurse a grudge and use the info as a weapon, in case of any trouble.

Om

RamaRaksha
10 September 2009, 07:53 AM
Devotee: What do you mean this was consensual transaction? Have you not seen any movies or heard stories about how women are lured into prostitution and then raped repeatedly by the pimps and then forced into sex? They are told even if they were to go back, their family will not take them back, which in most cases is what does happen. The poor girl is forced into prostitution against her will.

Do you even realize how many men these girls serve in one night? Do you think they love this job? Getting horrible diseases and thrown out once they get old? You think that a woman will willingly will go into prostitution?

As for the power of prayer, to me that sounds like an easy way out. Just sit in front of the murti do some puja and you are done. Much more difficult to get off one's butt and actually make a difference in some other person's life!

This is what saddens me about Hindus - The Gita warns us about Aham, yet all we seem to think is to do some puja and get on with our lives. Why bother helping a fellow human being? Sounds like too much work!

I actually do not believe that God helps us in any way. All God can do is give us strength and guidance, that's all. That is the lesson of the Mahabharata - all Krishna did for the pandavas during the war was to give them adivce and moral support, the pandavas had to fight the war by themselves.

RamaRaksha
10 September 2009, 07:55 AM
EM: The example you gave of your son is not comparable at all. These kind of disorders need to be out in the open, these are the things that one should not hide. A child could be born with the disorder, this will affect other human lives.

devotee
10 September 2009, 08:56 AM
What do you mean this was consensual transaction? Have you not seen any movies or heard stories about how women are lured into prostitution and then raped repeatedly by the pimps and then forced into sex? They are told even if they were to go back, their family will not take them back, which in most cases is what does happen. The poor girl is forced into prostitution against her will.

Do you even realize how many men these girls serve in one night? Do you think they love this job? Getting horrible diseases and thrown out once they get old? You think that a woman will willingly will go into prostitution?

How is the boy in question responsible for all this ? Did you read my post correctly ?

I have to nothing more to contribute. If you feel, you understand better than me, I have nothing to say. Thank you.

OM

sinner10
10 September 2009, 11:06 AM
Namaste All

Thank you for all your kind words.

Just to clear a few things -

1. Both the episodes happened in India and I am currently living in India (though I have lived in US for a brief period of time)
2. I have got tested for all STDs (including HIV) multiple times - mostly because of guilt. And I do not have any disease.

My guilt originates from the fact that the girl does not know about my past and I feel that it is unfair on my part to hide these details from her. But, on a different level, I feel that I do not have any disease and I have contemplated enough on my condition to stray ever again (especially when I will have a wife), so if I do not tell this to her, practically, it will not have any effect over her life.

However, I feel that she needs to know that I am not a virgin. I hope she does not probe further and is progressive enough to accept this fact. But again, I have not decided what I am going to do.

I have been guilt-ridden for past 2 weeks or so. In fact, I am not being able to eat normally and my folks are worried about me. I felt the urge to tell them all this but now I have decided it is in everyone's interest that I do not disclose it to my parents at least.

I hope God shows me the right way. Please pray for me.

Thank you all.

devotee
10 September 2009, 11:29 AM
Talk to any psychologist. I don't think he would advise you to make this all public. The society you are living in is not Europe or America. Here we marry first & then love the other person.

Who will get benefited with this great revelation ? It will only spoil your conjugal life. Here, in India, once married you can't come out of it ( in most cases). It is a relationship for the whole life. You don't become a hero just by making your sex-life public. There are better things to do in life.

Even if there was a girl instead of a boy, I would have given the same advice. Just forget it ... as if it never happened ! Once your relationship with your wife matures, you may share this great secret with her ... if that bothers you that much. Saying it before marriage is likely to become talk of the town within your community.

OM

RamaRaksha
10 September 2009, 12:26 PM
Well at least we agree on keeping this issue a secret, devotee.

Young man, I just noticed your login name, ow! Please don't call yourself that.

I wonder if there are other issues besides this, and you are actually not in favor of this marriage and are trying to avoid it? By the way, I am dead-set against all arranged marriages. I have remained unmarried rather than go thru an arranged marriage. They are pure evil, if you ask me.

Arranged marriages were originally intended for children, not adults. Back in time, people did not live as long as we do today, people dying in their 30's was quite common. In that situation, people were forced to marry early, in their early teens or younger when they were still children. Obviously then the parents arranged the marriage. This practice was not confined just to India, but was common all over the world.

Sadly, the rest of the world has moved on (sigh) but we Indians have remained "children" even as adults. Just looking at a picture and getting married is not the adult thing to do. You know more about your car than your wouldbe life partner, what does that tell you? When you bought your car, you did so as an adult, it was your choice and your decision. Find your life partner on your own. Be an adult.

If you having second thoughts, please break off the marriage. Try to find a life partner in the US, who is also experienced in sexual matters like yourself. Then you won't have any guilt.

Eastern Mind
10 September 2009, 01:12 PM
EM: The example you gave of your son is not comparable at all. These kind of disorders need to be out in the open, these are the things that one should not hide. A child could be born with the disorder, this will affect other human lives.

I agree. It was not the best example. The point I was trying to make was that all things should be out in the open, perhaps not specifics, but certainly things like this.

Aum Namasivaya

selfSeeker
10 September 2009, 02:26 PM
@devotee I like your approach.
The man in question found an answer to his problem.

I would like to give a few suggestions anyway.

Each man acts according to his current nature. There can be moments when he may have fluctuations in that. But the most comfortable state is being in his own nature. It is determined by what he does normally, what kind of company he lives in.

So, to take decisions about anything, he has to be in that normal state. He should not be in some excited or depressed state and decide to do things. All those decisions will soon wane away.

So, to face the existing problem, I suggest he should calm down and think in his own terms. Talking with his close friends is a good option for they resonate with similar natures. They may not be of high moral standards but he should accept what he is.

So, he should not jump into thinking about helping society etc. thinking he is doing a lot of favors to others and using that good to nullify his bad.

He should know what exactly his natural state is.
For that to calm down meditation, puja, japa etc help as there one gets closer to what one really is currently.

Then he should think clearly about the problem and should attempt to solve it.

One is strongest in one's current true nature. However, this state can be changed through constant practise.

Helping others in suffering may be a good thing for the society but cannot help a man who is not really into that.

zensati
11 September 2009, 12:09 AM
You paid a woman for illicit sex, Yes that is sinful no doubt.. But usually even If you are in a romantic relationship there is usually a financial exchange going on on one level or another.. So I guess my question is what is the difference? There may be a romantic feeling with a romantic partner but is that not just another form of lust?

atanu
11 September 2009, 12:49 AM
As for the power of prayer, to me that sounds like an easy way out. Just sit in front of the murti do some puja and you are done. Much more difficult to get off one's butt and actually make a difference in some other person's life!

This is what saddens me about Hindus - The Gita warns us about Aham, yet all we seem to think is to do some puja and get on with our lives. Why bother helping a fellow human being? Sounds like too much work!



Dear RR and also VC,

VC first articulated this view. Friends, every one does some action or the other and actually everyone, including the self proclaimed NGO, does work for him/her self. Very few, including many writers here, OTOH, do the prescribed puja and meditation. One can do thousand social tasks, but all such tasks done without bhakti and humility are actually kukarma and not sukarma.

I am not arguing against sukarma done as goodwill and worship. But I am pointing out that the presribed worship and mediation are required -- For keeping the mind pure.

--------------------

Sinner must give up the notion that he is a sinner. Come out openly to his father, mother, and God. Pray to be forgiven, Pray for strength so that the mistake is not repeated. Give up bad company. Get a medical check up to ensure absence of disease.

And probably not tell the bride anything till death -- with the good intention of being a loving co-passenger in the journey towards God. With the good intention of not hurting her emotions. And with the good intention of not commiting the mistake on sly again.

These are my views.

Om Namah Shivaya

RamaRaksha
11 September 2009, 04:17 AM
Atanu: I am sorry but I cannot agree with you. I keep reminding myself the story of an atheist who mocked the very concept of God, spent his life helping others in need. This is the person that God Rama embraces.

This is about Karma - he has incurred bad Karma. For example if you took money from someone without earning it, the karmic laws teach us that we must pay it back (message to all those corrupt people out there) even if it takes several lives.

How does this young man get rid of the bad karma? By doing good works, that is the only way. Doing pujas and offerings to Gods - trying to buy your way out - will not work.

RamaRaksha
11 September 2009, 04:22 AM
Dear RR and also VC,

Sinner must give up the notion that he is a sinner. Come out openly to his father, mother, and God. Pray to be forgiven, Pray for strength so that the mistake is not repeated. Give up bad company. Get a medical check up to ensure absence of disease.

Om Namah Shivaya

Of course I have adviced against coming out to his relatives and future wife. As for God, she already knows what has happened. As for being forgiven, please, never ask forgiveness from God. God should not forgive. Instead try to put the situation right, put something back. Don't ask for forgiveness from a third party, even it is is God. One must forgive oneself, and helping others is the only way.

atanu
11 September 2009, 04:26 AM
Atanu: I am sorry but I cannot agree with you. I keep reminding myself the story of an atheist who mocked the very concept of God, spent his life helping others in need. This is the person that God Rama embraces.



Dear RR,

Thank you for reminding me this nice truth. I agree. A nice reminder indeed. However, I also say that exception proves the rule. Because nowhere in scripture not doing the prescribed duties and mediation recommended.

Om Namah Shivaya

rkpande
11 September 2009, 06:58 AM
I think dear atanu has rendered the most practical advice.

You have already done your pasyatap by way of living with this guilt all the while, that's more than enough, by telling your wife, even if she is forgiving type(which most are) will carry the hurt and hurting someone is also a sin. If you lie to her then its a sin again. Keeping mum is not telling a lie.
Important point is to get over it else you will surely develop acidity, I am telling from experience.

Eastern Mind
11 September 2009, 07:16 AM
Vanakkam all:

I have enjoyed this thread. It shows the wide variety of ideas that are out there. Now it will be up to the OP to decide. (Obviously) He has had a lot of input and advice now.

This thread put life into perspective for me. I do read all the philosophical threads, but frankly, to me they are nothing compared to threads like this.

But now it is my opinion that it has deteriorated somewhat into "But my advice is better than your advice." Ego pops up as always. So I pray for the welfare of the OP and hope all turns out right in his quest for the Self, and in this temporal lifetime of decisions.

Aum Namasivaya

atanu
11 September 2009, 11:40 AM
Vanakkam all:

But now it is my opinion that it has deteriorated somewhat into "But my advice is better than your advice." Ego pops up as always. So I pray for the welfare of the OP and hope all turns out right in his quest for the Self, and in this temporal lifetime of decisions.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste EM,

I agree that our role is finished and it is OP who has to solve the crisis on the way home.

However, in this thread, i do not feel that anyone has claimed that one;s offered solution is the only one. After all, God chalks out the events before mind's participation.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

vcindiana
12 September 2009, 01:25 PM
This thread has given me a great learning experience. It is nice to know what others think. It has also lead me to research scriptures and keep learning more. It is not my point to give advice and tell this is the way to do as though I know the facts.
The key points in this thread are forgiveness and how we can become guilt free. . I wrestle with this all the time. I turned to BG.

In Ch 9 30-31 it says “Though a man commits the most abominable action if he is engaged in devotional service he is considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination.” Then very interestingly it says “such people SOON become righteous and attain everlasting peace. My devotee never falls down or does not perish. Wow!!
I have high lighted the word soon. You God, don’t you want to take some time to analyze the evil activities of this "bad" person? How can you forgive this guy who happened to get mad/angry at some one, use a foul language, or rape some one, or even murder some one in cold blood? Do'nt you want to grade or categorize "sins" like we do in human justice system?You are not even giving him a probationary period and you just want to accept him SOON? What an audacity on your part that I can never understand?
Next my question is what is Devotional service that is mentioned here? Going to a temple or a Church? Do some ritual? Going Yatra? Put golden ornaments on God? Chant some Mantra or Stotra? Wear sacred thread or necklace? Wear Kumkum or Vibuti? Wear saffron clothes and consider oneself as “Holy”? Offer several Bananas to God in Tirupati? Etc etc etc ...Why do we do these? I am not trying to put any of these down, these are what most of us do every day but people may find comfort in these activities. My question is how do these make my guilt /sin activities go away?
Going to BG 2:47 (my favorite) in the last phrase it says not to get attached to Inaction either. Does BG mean Inaction is SIN ? The actions BG is talking are I presume not spontaneous ones such as breathing, beating heart etc but actual voluntary ones (the word eva adhikar makes it clear that these are voluntary). Inaction as I understand is also about not getting established in SELF. (Thanks to Dear Yaj) So if one wants to be established he has to do action, be a Karma Yogi or love in action. My take is God wants us to get cleansed from all our sinful activities by being in SELF (not an Inaction)meaning to get up and get involved in helping fellow human beings.


Did I get you all confused? I am sorry, for me life is never ending when it comes to learning.

Please let me know whether I have derailed this thread.

Love.............VC

ps Sin has no pleural

Eastern Mind
12 September 2009, 01:51 PM
[quote=vcindiana;32475]

In Ch 9 30-31 it says “Though a man commits the most abominable action if he is engaged in devotional service he is considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination.”

I'm sorry but this reminds me too much of a couple of Christians I knew. On my school staff we had a guy who was a thief, borderline pedophile, selfish lazy son of a gun. Bit if you talked to him, he had Jesus in his heart, so therefore he was going to heaven anyway. So are we saying that is we 'sin' its okay as long as we have God in our hearts. I sure the hell (pardon the pun) don't hope so. This is a very treacherous narrow path to be walking.

I remember ISKCON encounters where I was given the explanation that since it was for Krishna, the deception was okay. Deception being that we're supportinmg an international childrens' aid group comparable to Unicef, with reality being "I'm supporting myself this way, and buying flowers and gold for Krishna." I wasn't buying it.

BTW, I think there is an excellent chance the OP was trolling looking for responses, which of course was somewhat better than giving a hypothetical 'moral dilemma'. Either way, it was interesting, and still is.

Aum Namasivaya

vcindiana
12 September 2009, 09:15 PM
Dear EM
We can keep criticizing missionaries, a thief, borderline pedophile, selfish lazy son of a gun who claimed JC in his heart, ISKCON encounters, British and Islamic people who “raped” India etc,etc , calling them asuric, adharmic and untouchable people , keep on complaining and whining about these, but nothing going to be accomplished. BG is at least clear to me that it puts me on a pedestal, how I can be self realized and what difference I can make in my Swadharma. BG wants us to become Karma Yogi. My attitude is every thing that happened for a reason BG says not even one blade of grass moves without His knowing. I love Dear Yaj for trying to keep his composure in his posts.

Love.....VC

devotee
12 September 2009, 09:33 PM
Dear EM
We can keep criticizing missionaries, a thief, borderline pedophile, selfish lazy son of a gun who claimed JC in his heart, ISKCON encounters, British and Islamic people who “raped” India etc,etc , calling them asuric, adharmic and untouchable people , keep on complaining and whining about these, but nothing going to be accomplished. BG is at least clear to me that it puts me on a pedestal, how I can be self realized and what difference I can make in my Swadharma. BG wants us to become Karma Yogi. My attitude is every thing that happened for a reason BG says not even one blade of grass moves without His knowing.


Namaste EM & VC,

This dilemma arises when we reduce God to some concept in mind ... limited to some name & form. If you really love God, you can't do any injustice to anyone, you cannot think of hurting anyone, you can never be selfish at the cost of others. Why ?

Because :

"Aham AtmA gudakeshah Sarva BhUtashaya Sthitah"

===> I am the Self sitting in the heart of all beings.

So, any wrong done to any 'other' being is actually wrong done to God Himself !

OM

sinner10
13 September 2009, 12:50 PM
Namaste All,

Dear EM - I am not trolling here. I am in a really troubling situation currently. I am not able to eat more than 1 roti whether in dinner or lunch. I was in home with my parents when these bouts of guilt hit me. I had felt so weak that I was not able to speak properly (my voice had become so low). At one point I thought I will probably die because of all this. I try to occupy myself with various things and not think about this at all. The bouts of depression hit me the hardest just after I wake up.
I will not bore you with my sob story now. I hope I am fine psychologically by the time I marry.

Dear Rama Raksha - I very much want to marry this girl. And I have been trying to convince myself that it was just a lapse in judgement - a vice that I indulged in briefly. I am quoting a comment by Mr. Sudarshan on this same site -

"A sin must be discriminated from a vice. A sin is an action that harms others mentally or physically and it can be absolved only by experiencing its fruits or by deep prayers of remorse. Bigger sins like murder in a past birth etc cannot be resolved apart from samAdhi or by undergoing the effects.

Activities like masturbation, pre marital sex, prostitution, smoking, drugs etc are not sins, because they do not hurt others. These are addictions which must be given up if one aspires for spiritual growth. "

Whenever I encounter these bouts of depression, I head back to this forum and read the comments again and again. But now I think I should just get off internet and try to immerse myself in my regular life. I am thinking of joining some NGO and doing some voluntary work both as a penance and just to occupy me with something better.

Eastern Mind
13 September 2009, 01:43 PM
Namaste:

I'm sorry if I offended. I was just suggesting the possibility. Best wishes in your decision. Only time will tell.

Aum Namasivaya

satay
13 September 2009, 05:18 PM
Admin Note

Namaskar,

Please seek professional help. Solving such personal problems of members is beyond the scope of this forum.

Thank you.


Namaste All,

Dear EM - I am not trolling here. I am in a really troubling situation currently. I am not able to eat more than 1 roti whether in dinner or lunch. I was in home with my parents when these bouts of guilt hit me. I had felt so weak that I was not able to speak properly (my voice had become so low). At one point I thought I will probably die because of all this.