PDA

View Full Version : ISKCON Translation of Svet Upanishad



atanu
10 September 2009, 09:14 PM
ISKCON Translation of Svet Upanishad

The original Sanskrit

tR^itiiyo.adhyaayaH .
ya eko jaalavaaniishata iishaniibhiH sarvaa.nllokaaniishata iishaniibhiH .ya evaika udbhave sambhave cha ya etad.h viduramR^itaaste bhavanti .. 1..

eko hi RUDRO na dvitiiyaaya tasthu\- rya imaa.nllokaaniishata iishaniibhiH .pratyaN^ janaastishhThati saJNchukochaantakaale sa.nsR^ijya vishvaa bhuvanaani gopaaH .. 2..

vishvatashchaxuruta vishvatomukho vishvatobaahuruta vishvataspaat.h .saM baahubhyaa.n dhamati saMpatatrai\- rdyaavaabhuumii janayan.h deva ekaH .. 3..

yo devaanaaM prabhavashchodbhavashcha vishvaadhipo RUDRO maharshhiH .hiraNyagarbha.n janayaamaasa puurva.n sa no buddhyaa shubhayaa sa.nyunaktu .. 4..

Now read the HK version of the translation.

Chapter 3
TEXT 1 They who understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of the network of maya, who alone, with His potencies, rules all the worlds, and who alone, with His potencies, rules all the worlds, and who alone, with His potencies, rules the all the worlds in their creation and maintenance, becomes immortal.
TEXT 2 The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is one without a second, with His potencies rules the worlds. He stays within the living entities. He protects the worlds. He created the worlds and at the last moment He withdraws them.
TEXT 3 His eyes are everywhere. His faces are everywhere. His arms are everywhere. His feet are everywhere. He, the one Supreme Personality of Godhead, breathed life into they who have two arms on the land and they who have wings in the sky.
TEXT 4 May the omniscient Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the creator and protector of the demigods, and who in the beginning fathered the demigod Brahma, give us good intelligence.


And so it goes. Wherever, Rudra or Siva appears, the translation says “The Supreme Personality of God Head”. This would be fine except that in translation of the Gita, HK followers introduce Lord Siva as a demi god. Either these translations are divine work of God, to keep away the impure and the lusty, or these works are of people fuelled by such jealousy that they do not cavil at changing scriptures. And there is another Gaudiya version also, where Rudro word is replaced by maha prabhu or Chaitanya.

Below is Ramakrishna Math version, where Rudra is replaced by the word heaven. This is better and correct, since Dauyus (heaven) and Rudra are both said to be the father of Rudras and Maruts in Rig Veda.

III-1: It is the self-same One who exists alone at the time of creation and dissolution of the universe that assumes manifold powers and appears as the Divine Lord by virtue of His inscrutable power of Maya. He it is that protects all the worlds and controls all the various forces working therein. Those who realize this Being becomes immortal.[/font]

III-2: He who protects and controls the worlds by His own powers, He – Rudra – is indeed one only. There is no one beside Him who can make Him the second. O men, He is present inside the hearts of all beings. After projecting and maintaining all the worlds, He finally withdraws them into Himself.[/font]

III-3: Though God, the creator of heaven and earth, is one only, yet Heaven is the real owner of all the eyes, faces, hands and feet in this universe. It is Heaven who inspires them all to do their respective duties in accordance with the knowledge, past actions and tendencies of the various beings (with whom they appear to be associated).[/font]

III-4: May Heaven, who created the gods and supports them; who is the origin also of the cosmic soul; who confers bliss and wisdom on the devotes, destroying their sins and sorrows, and punishing all breaches of law – may Heaven, the great seer and the lord of all, endow us with good thoughts.[/font]

Below is a translation, which retains the words as it is.
Chapter III

1 The non—dual Ensnarer rules by His powers. Remaining one and the same, He rules by His powers all the worlds during their manifestation and continued existence. They who know this become immortal.

2 Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time.

3 His eyes are everywhere, His faces everywhere, His arms everywhere, everywhere His feet. He it is who endows men with arms, birds with feet and wings and men likewise with feet. Having produced heaven and earth, He remains as their non—dual manifester.

4 He, the omniscient Rudra, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the support of the universe, He who, in the beginning, gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!


May Rudra Shiva give us a passionless clear intellect.

Om Namah Shivaya

bhaktajan
10 September 2009, 09:50 PM
Atanu,

Svet Upanishad verses that you found!
I am a Hare Krishna and I have not found the verses you posted.
It must be new!
Some scholar and/or sanyasin or babaji pundita has translated the whole of this Upanisad? I can't wait to see it! I will read it from cover to cover ---I like to then take notes too.

below is the only few verse [so far] that I've found that still confound your POV.

Please read the verses below and kindly inform me of any deivation from proper transliteration.

Çvetäçvatara Upaniñad (3.12–13):


mahän prabhur vai puruñaù

sattvasyaiña pravartakaù

su-nirmaläà imäà präptim

éçäno jyotir avyayaù

aìguñöha-mätraù puruño ’ntar-ätmä

sadä janänäà hådaye sanniviñöaù

hådä manéñä manasäbhikÿpto

ya etad vidur amåtäs te bhavanti


“The Supreme Personality of Godhead becomes the Puruña to initiate the expansion of this cosmos. He is the perfectly pure goal that yogés strive to reach, the effulgent and infallible ultimate controller. Measuring the size of a thumb, the Puruña is always present as the Supersoul within the hearts of all living beings. By exercising proper intelligence, one can realize Him within the heart; those who learn this method will gain immortality.”

Çvetäçvatara Upaniñad (6.23):


yasya deve parä bhaktir

yathä deve tathä gurau

tasyaite kathitä hy arthäù

prakäçante mahätmanaù
“Unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master, all the imports of Vedic knowledge are automatically revealed.”

bhaktajan
10 September 2009, 09:57 PM
According to Vaisnava acaryas the Absolute Truth would be incomplete without personality.

Vedanta-sutra:
athato brahma-jigyasa "Let us enquire into the Absolute Truth"
+
Vedanta-sutra:
janmady asya yatah "Absolute Truth is that from which everything is emanating"
=
The Absolute Truth, the source of all cosmic variety (living beings, planets, space, time, etc) must also possess the qualities that are emanating--- one such quality is 'Personality'.

IOW,

The Absolute Truth, or the complete whole (om purnam), must possess all the qualities of its parts.

similarly,

Bliss (ananda) exists only in relationship of between persons (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12 anandamayo'bhyasat)

atanu
10 September 2009, 10:05 PM
Atanu,
Svet Upanishad verses that you found!
I am a Hare Krishna and I have not found the verses you posted.
It must be new!


Dear Bhakta,

That is why I said: Open your eyes, ears, and mind a bit. Do not be a literal servant. They have not given you anything that you have to resort to falsehood and lies.You must be innocent and it is ISKCON trap. It is a missionary trap.

Look for sanskrit verses of the Upanishad and you will find them. Please compare with an open mind. Please consider my genuine request to see for yourself. Do not believe Atanu or do not believe ISKCON --- just for a few moments and check for yourself.

That is the meaning of Self --- it must not be made the servant .


Free the Self.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
10 September 2009, 10:08 PM
Dear Bhakta

If you are truthful that you have not seen the original verse as below, then you are either innocent or you are dogmatic -- sticking to your view without knowing.:

tR^itiiyo.adhyaayaH .
ya eko jaalavaaniishata iishaniibhiH sarvaa.nllokaaniishata iishaniibhiH .ya evaika udbhave sambhave cha ya etad.h viduramR^itaaste bhavanti .. 1..

eko hi RUDRO na dvitiiyaaya tasthu\- rya imaa.nllokaaniishata iishaniibhiH .pratyaN^ janaastishhThati saJNchukochaantakaale sa.nsR^ijya vishvaa bhuvanaani gopaaH .. 2..

vishvatashchaxuruta vishvatomukho vishvatobaahuruta vishvataspaat.h .saM baahubhyaa.n dhamati saMpatatrai\- rdyaavaabhuumii janayan.h deva ekaH .. 3..

yo devaanaaM prabhavashchodbhavashcha vishvaadhipo RUDRO maharshhiH .hiraNyagarbha.n janayaamaasa puurva.n sa no buddhyaa shubhayaa sa.nyunaktu .. 4..


I genuinely request of you to rest a moment, take Lord's name, and check for yourself. Do not get lost in purports. Do not get bonded to purports. Purports cannot give you the freedom that you are seeking.

Om

bhaktajan
10 September 2009, 10:17 PM
plescibo comrade ---You are a well-wisher like very few are.

Thank you.

I have indeed been smashed over and over again by ISKCON.
I am most fallen and undeserving of all the causeless mercy that I have recieved from senior vaisnavas.

I must be one of the Door keepers that will greet you with fragrant flowers and insense to announce your arrival.

I am self-realised. Oh yes I am!

Unfortunately it does not provide me with any means of paying the bills.

But I do disagree with you at least on one point: "Atanu, the soul must be made the servant ---by the carrot or the stick"

Living a posh life will cause one to falsely think that they are not a servant ---but you must serve the masters all.

Without reposing service to another there cannot be 'repose (ananda)'.

your insider at the ISKCON party nearest your abode,
bhaktajan

me jara suhrt, ma sucah, ma sucah

unata
11 September 2009, 12:14 AM
plescibo comrade ---You are a well-wisher like very few are.

But I do disagree with you at least on one point: "Atanu, the soul must be made the servant ---by the carrot or the stick"



Namaste sir,

You have given a fitting reply. Yes. Soul was born a servant and must remain a servant, even if it means adhereing to a few falsehoods.

But sir, may I respectfully enquire: Who should wield the carrot and the stick?

I know you are the most knowledgable in the forum, so I have faith that you will be able to clear away all my doubts.

Regards

Jai Bhagawan

bhargavsai
11 September 2009, 01:05 AM
But I do disagree with you at least on one point: "Atanu, the soul must be made the servant ---by the carrot or the stick"

Living a posh life will cause one to falsely think that they are not a servant ---but you must serve the masters all.

Without reposing service to another there cannot be 'repose (ananda)'.

your insider at the ISKCON party nearest your abode,
bhaktajan

me jara suhrt, ma sucah, ma sucah


OK, Bhaktajan ji, What do you consider as the Soul here? Define soul!

I cannot accept the Idea of servant or slave, for God should never have a motive to create a servant or slave soul.

Ananda can be obtained even by meditating, is that not Ananda?

ISKCON has truly been one of the most incorrect interpreter of Texts. I have recently bought Isa Upanishad from ISKCON store and all I found was Godhead Godhead and Godhead. Deva is not offensive, but Demi God sure is, especially for Shiva devotees like me.

yajvan
11 September 2009, 11:00 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
Namasté bhaktajan,




I am self-realised. Oh yes I am!

The gravity of what you say is of great import to all those reading here on HDF. Please share your experiences of what you perceive as one that is grounded in kaivala¹.

My one question would be that of ṛtam-bharā prajñā. For those reading that may not be familiar with this term , let me offer the following:

Yogadarśana of Patañjali ( the yoga-sūtra-s) Chapt 1, 48th sūtra, offers ṛtam-bharā prajñā. This means essential cognition i.e. how one perceives the world, is filled with truth. Lets look a bit deeper:
ṛtam ऋतम्+ bharā भर+ prajñā प्रज्णा= ṛtam (luminous, insightful unalloyed, pure) + bharā ( bearing, bestowing, carrying) + pra (great) + jñā ( to know). One perceives only the Truth. Some call this unalloyed, unvarnished great truth and becomes a part of one's daily vision. This is the practical value of knowledge + experience.

That said, for one grounded in the SELF, only truth can be viewed. Help us understand your experiences then bhaktajan, on how you use this natural state of Being for your continued growth ( and for others).

praṇām

words
kaivala कैवल also written kevala केवल - is simple , pure , uncompounded , unmingled ; perfect unity;

bhaktajan
11 September 2009, 02:56 PM
Yajvan,
your eleoquence has captured the essence & the Standard of Measure very nicely ---.


"The world, is filled with truth + One perceives [I]only the Truth. = part of one's daily vision."


Here is the scoop on the Story:


A Worker has 'Two Sides' of the Street to negotiate [ref: isopanisad, sambhutim ca vinasam] along with 'Works' thus :

SIDE ONE
Remember THESE Sri Krishna’s Gita instructions as follows,

1.“Now I shall explain . . .”,
3. Sri Krishna’s “Aham(s)”
2.“‘Is very dear to me(s)’ ”

Here's some "Now I shall explain(s) . . .":
2.39 Thus far I have described this knowledge to you through
analytical study. Now listen as I explain it in terms of working
without fruitive results.
4.16 . . . Now I shall explain to you what action is, knowing
which you shall be liberated from all misfortune.
7.1 Now hear, O son of Prtha, how by practicing yoga in full
consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full,
free from doubt. 2 I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge,
both phenomenal and numinous. This being known, nothing further shall
remain for you to know.
8.11 . . . I shall now briefly explain to you this process by which one may attain salvation.
8.23 . . . I shall now explain to you the different times at which, passing away from this world, the yogi does or does not come back.
9.1 . . . I shall impart to you this most confidential knowledge and realization, knowing which you shall be relieved of the miseries of material existence.
10.1 . . . I shall speak to you further, giving knowledge that is better than what I have already explained.
10.19 Yes, I will tell you of My splendorous manifestations . . .
11.5 . . . see now My opulences, hundreds of thousands of varied divine and multicolored forms.
11.47 . . . No one before you has ever seen this primal form, unlimited and full of glaring effulgence.
13.4 Now please hear My brief description of this field of activity and how it is constituted, what its changes are, whence it is produced, who that knower of the field of activities is, and what his influences are.

Here's some 'Ahams':
7.8—I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the
syllable Om in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and ability
in man.
7.9—I am the original fragrance of the earth and I am the heat in
fire. I am the life of all that lives,and I am the penances of all
ascetics.
7.10—Know that I am the original seed of all existences, the intelligence of the intelligent, and the prowess of all powerful men.
7.11—I am the strength of the strong, devoid of passion and desire.
I am sex life which is not contrary to religious principles.
7.12—Know that all states of being--be they of goodness, passion
or ignorance--are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything, but I am independent. I am not under the modes of material nature, for they, on the contrary, are within Me.

10.20—I am the Supersoul seated in the hearts of all living entities. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings.
10.21—Of the Adityas I am Visnu. Of lights I am the radiant sun. Of the Maruts I am Marici. Among the stars I am the moon.
10.22—Of the Vedas I am the Sama Veda. Of the demigods I am Indra, the king of heaven. Of the senses I am the mind. In living beings I am the living force [consciousness].
10.23—Of all the Rudras I am Lord Siva. Of the Yaksas and
Raksasas I am the Lord of wealth [Kuvera]. Of the Vasus I
am fire [Agni]. Of mountains I am Meru.
10.24—Of priests know Me to be the chief, Brhaspati. Of generals
I am Kartikeya. Of bodies of water I am the ocean.
10.25—Of the great sages I am Bhrgu. Of vibrations I am the
transcendental “Om”. Of sacrifices I am the chanting of
the holy names [japa]. Of immovable things I am the
Himalayas.
10.26—Of all trees I am the banyan tree. Of the sages among the
demigods I am Narada. Of the Gandharvas I am
Citraratha. Among perfected beings I am the sage Kapila.

Here's some 'Is very dear to me(s)’:
Bg 7.17 . . . one who is in full knowledge and who is always engaged
In pure devotional service is the best. For I am very dear to
him, and he is dear to Me

Bg 12.13-14 One who is not envious but is a kind friend to all living
entities, who does not think himself a proprietor and is free
from false ego, who is equal in both happiness and distress,
who is tolerant, always satisfied, self-controlled, and
engaged in devotional service with determination, his mind
and intelligence fixed on Me—such a devotee of Mine is
very dear to Me.
Bg 12.15 He for whom no one is put into difficulty and who is not
disturbed by anyone, who is equipoised in happiness and
nhdistress, fear and anxiety, is very dear to Me.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


(+) Plus


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
SIDE TWO
To the above add the un-nerving ghastly ---[BTW, this causes & grounds the determination to be renounced in all regards] constant insight that all living beings and especially friends, relatives and neighbors and teenagers and the elderly and the refugees are ALL SUFFERING LIKE FOOLISH RASCALS DOPES DESTINED FOR MORE UNLIMITED SUFFERING AS TIME MARCHES ON.


Hear is some wisdom:
"Before enlightenment, Chop wood & carry Water; After enlightenment, Chop wood & carry Water"
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


(+) Plus


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Works
Be a wellwisher of all ---from ones own vantage-point via performing your daily alloted duties 'the best you can do' ---it doesn't matter what kind of occupational duties you are engaged in along as you do the utmost conscientious First-Rate workmenship ---later prepare for old age to preform "Prayascitta tapasya(s) [penance/contrition]" so as not to die as a kept pet but as a conscious devotee.


wishing well many times causes head-aches,
Bhaktajan

yajvan
11 September 2009, 03:15 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté bhaktajan,

Thank you for your reply, yet I am still at a loss for your personal experience as a knower of the SELF ( jñātā or knower).

Can you share with us your personal experience of looking through the eyes of an individual that is no longer 'individual'. What do you see, how do you act, what is next?

That is, can you talk a bit about your pratibimba-vada or reflection? Being posessed of the SELF, what now does this universe look like?

And for many here can you offer the upāya , or skillful means, technique or way,that brought you to this place of silence, the SELF.

If this is your experience
I am self-realised. Oh yes I am! Then all here on HDF are willing to listen and learn of the unfoldment process you may offer to help others along.


Truly there is in this world nothing so purifying as knowledge; He who is perfected in Yoga, of himself in time finds this within himself. Bhāgavad gītā, Chapt 4, 38th śloka.

We look to what you have learned and can pass on.

praṇām

bhaktajan
11 September 2009, 03:21 PM
Bhargavasi,

"for God should never have a motive to create a servant or slave soul."

Do you then accept that all others except God ---are motived to create a servants or slaves? IOW, your parents, teachers, boss, mate, auto repair mechanic, insurance company, therapist, telephone & electric company, banker, police force, tax collector, the street robber, the wild dog HAVE ALREADY created servants or slaves of you? Do you live above and aloft from these common benefactors are motivated to make you happy? Or is everyone simply washing each others hands, mutually.

Ananda --- is the state of ZERO ANXIETY. Get to the point of ZERO ANXIETY and you will feel Ananda.

The more true lasting ZERO ANXIETY that can be arranged ---the longer the sensation od ananda remains preceptable.

The Soul is the self. The Soul-Self is constructed of one Characteristic: Consciousness.

Just as the law of physics says, 'no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time, so similarly, 'no two Soul-Self(s) can occupy the same space at the same time' ergo, the Soul-Self is an individual. Once the Soul-Self realises his individualty they start the journey . . . but no man is an Island ---this is the way it is, on lower stratums as well as in higher stratums of influence.



Ananda can be obtained even by meditating, is that not Ananda?

bhaktajan
11 September 2009, 04:04 PM
My personal experience as a knower of the SELF ( jñātā or knower)?

"My personal experience"---This is the experience.
99% of Daily time is involved with mundane tasks --- just as the silence of sitting meditation can slow the continuous stream of thoughts--- the "satisfaction" of preforming mundane tasks is the best we can ask for to sense the presence of the self.

Yajvan, the limits of self-realisation are constricted outside of ashram life. Daily sadhana is the best of a bad bargain ---one must be disciplined at least in one regard what to speak of the 7 opulences in Gita 10:30.


Can you share with us your personal experience of looking through the eyes of an individual that is no longer 'individual'. What do you see, how do you act, what is next?

Renuciation of all in the event of sudden catasthophic anihilation [aka death] is the prime preparation in life to be trained-up for via the Yogic disciplines. Krsna-rupa-lila-smaranam is best. Since death may occur at any unexpected time of day, night or stage of life ---first we must learn the trials and trappings of life's tendency to ensnare us in maya ---so, daily practice of seeing who/where/when we invest our energies in adharmic or even mundane inattention to ill-motivated outsiders that seek to drain our energy for their use.

A sense of self-preservation must be cultivated [vs false fascade of courage] that works on its own accord while one may be distracted.

That is, can you talk a bit about your pratibimba-vada or reflection?
There is the simply daily reflection that the body entoto is not under ones own control ---we, the Self-Soul is like a building superintendent that contents with fixing every nook & cranny of the buliding Complex and Grounds ---the workings of the organs etc are mysteries! The heart beats at night during sleep without the Self-Soul being asked to attend to these micro-functions. The body is a Mystery machine that we live in the penthouse suite where we call-in requests to room service, with pomp and due esteem, we glance out from our perches and take for granted the tapasya required to get to this point.

The perceptions of the world as seen by 'an introspective sage' is less censored ---then a gross materialist seeking gratifications of differring sorts.

A brave centered satisfied non-competitive gratefull sage can find new neuances/insights by observing the world and 'letting it (the world) happen' without interjecting his 'ego' ---and thus the sages mind sees more ramifications via any stimulai that passes his sense-perception.

Being posessed of the SELF, what now does this universe look like?
The contemplation of time & people that performed the same things we do now adays ---and how others past years of sunny & rainy days yet the 'song remains the same'



[B]And for many here can you offer the upāya , or skillful means, technique or way,that brought you to this place of silence, the SELF.

Always remember with great confidence and fixed fellowship with Brahman and fixed reliance of paramatma's protection that I am a fool number One par excellance. Humuility combined with the proper Guru-trainedshipness will provide with views of the greatest adventures. Krishna says in the Gita, 'I am the spirit of Adventure'.



If this is your experience
Quote:
I am self-realised. Oh yes I am!
I do consider that the self-realisation is available via Vedic studentship ---I do not consider that seeing all the extreme & subtle sufferings in the world "fun" ---but at the end of the day renunciation will be served.


We must look to what we have learned and can pass on.

Jai Sri Radha Syam

yajvan
11 September 2009, 06:15 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté bhaktajan

thank you for your post, yet I still have blemishes in my comprehension of your writings. Let me be straightforward in my question ( if this seems a bit forward, pardon me beforehand); You are saying that your are jīvanmukta ? Is this correct?

My bewilderment (mūḍha - perplexed , confused , uncertain or at a loss about ) comes from what you offer. I ask of the upāya , or skillful means, technique or way, that brought you to this place of silence, the SELF, and you are kind enough to offer the following ( yet I do not see the relevance):

Always remember with great confidence and fixed fellowship with Brahman and fixed reliance of paramatma's protection that I am a fool number One par excellance. Humuility combined with the proper Guru-trainedshipness will provide with views of the greatest adventures. Krishna says in the Gita, 'I am the spirit of Adventure'
I ask for your personal experience of looking through the eyes of an individual that is no longer 'individual'. What do you see ? That is, has your individuality melted away and you now experience something other then aṇu - if so what? and you offer the following ( I cannot connect the dots):

Renuciation of all in the event of sudden catasthophic anihilation [aka death] is the prime preparation in life to be trained-up for via the Yogic disciplines. Krsna-rupa-lila-smaranam is best. Since death may occur at any unexpected time of day, night or stage of life ---first we must learn the trials and trappings of life's tendency to ensnare us in maya ---so, daily practice of seeing who/where/when we invest our energies in adharmic or even mundane inattention to ill-motivated outsiders that seek to drain our energy for their use.

While what you offer is somewhat interesting, I am at a loss on how it hits the mark to explain one's experience of the SELF - 7 days a week , 24 hrs a day, 365 days a year. To that point , for you, is turiya a constant experience all day and all night ? In wake-dream-and-sleep? Is this your personal experience? This will help me comprehend your jñātā experience.

praṇām

bhaktajan
11 September 2009, 07:05 PM
Knowledge and detachment and the blessings of senior Spiritual Masters of all levels has given me staunch, extreme and gratefully
great confidence and fixed fellowship with Brahman and fixed reliance of paramatma's protection that I am a fool number one.

Let me tell the truth and nothing but the truth, my conceit is:

I am fool number one ---which, places me head and shoulders above the rest of the common masses ---so help me God.

bhaktajan
11 September 2009, 07:53 PM
"one's experience of the SELF"

This is a misnomer.

One's SELF is the experiencer.

One's SELF experiences maya 100% of the day ---except if it DOES NOT consciously observes yogic rules of tapasya to a specific end.

The self is 'self-contained' yet accompanied by bretheren in the same predicament in a field fill with inanimate objects that may or may not be utilised in service of ______. In service of Others? In service of One's senses? In service of Others? In service of Knowledge?

Practically, 'hari-nama-japa ca krnsa-lila sramanam' and sub-sets of that is more then sufficent for me and most fools of my calibre ---except others may, rarely, keep themselves cloistered for at least one sabatical at a time, or for at least one ekadasi at a time, or one life-time at a time.

I do not claim that I possess the following qualities:
Brahma-bhuta/brahma-nirvanam (free from false ego & free from material contamination and situated as one with the Absolute)

and

Atamarama (one who is self-satified, free from external, material desires)




In the Chändogya Upaniñad there are eight symptoms of a jévan-mukta, a person who is already liberated even when living in this body:

1] apahata-päpa --Free from all sinful activity.
2] vijara --not subjected to the miseries of old age.
3] vimåtyu --does not take on any more material bodies/births.
4] viçoka --callous to material distress and happiness.
5] vijighatsa --no longer desires material enjoyment.
6] apipätä --no desire other than to engage in the devotional service of Kåñëa
7] satya-käma (satya-saìkalpa)--all desires are directed to the Supreme Truth, Kåñëa and fulfilled by the Lord’s grace.
8] sadharma -- the same quality as returning to the spiritual world.


We must become gentlemen & women by planning to stop flesh eating, stop cow slaughter and cultivate these knowledge in the following way:

Bhagavad-gétä (13.8–12):
(1) One should become a perfect gentleman and learn to give proper respect to others.
(2) One should not pose himself as a religionist simply for name and fame.
(3) One should not become a source of anxiety to others by the actions of his body, by the thoughts of his mind, or by his words.
(4) One should learn forbearance even in the face of provocation from others.
(5) One should learn to avoid duplicity in his dealings with others.
(6) One should search out a bona fide spiritual master who can lead him gradually to the stage of spiritual realization, and one must submit himself to such a spiritual master, render him service and ask relevant questions.
(7) In order to approach the platform of self-realization, one must follow the regulative principles enjoined in the revealed scriptures.
(8) One must be fixed in the tenets of the revealed scriptures.
(9) One should completely refrain from practices which are detrimental to the interest of self-realization.
(10) One should not accept more than he requires for the maintenance of the body.
(11) One should not falsely identify himself with the gross material body, nor should one consider those who are related to his body to be his own.
(12) One should always remember that as long as he has a material body he must face the miseries of repeated birth, old age, disease and death. There is no use in making plans to get rid of these miseries of the material body. The best course is to find out the means by which one may regain his spiritual identity.
(13) One should not be attached to more than the necessities of life required for spiritual advancement.
(14) One should not be more attached to wife, children and home than the revealed scriptures
ordain.
(15) One should not be happy or distressed over desirables and undesirables, knowing that such feelings are just created by the mind.
(16) One should become an unalloyed devotee of the Personality of Godhead, Çré Kåñëa, and serve Him with rapt attention.
(17) One should develop a liking for residence in a secluded place with a calm and quiet atmosphere favorable for spiritual culture, and one should avoid congested places where nondevotees congregate.
(18) One should become a scientist or philosopher and conduct research into spiritual knowledge, recognizing that spiritual knowledge is permanent whereas material knowledge ends with the death of the body.
These eighteen items combine to form a gradual process by which real knowledge can be developed. Except for these, all other methods are considered to be in the category of nescience.

bhaktajan
11 September 2009, 07:54 PM
repeat post deleted

bhaktajan
11 September 2009, 07:54 PM
repeat post deleted

yajvan
11 September 2009, 07:56 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté bhaktajan,



Knowledge and detachment and the blessings of senior Spiritual Masters of all levels has given me staunch, extreme and gratefully
great confidence and fixed fellowship with Brahman and fixed reliance of paramatma's protection that I am a fool number one.

Let me tell the truth and nothing but the truth, my conceit is:

I am fool number one ---which, places me head and shoulders above the rest of the common masses ---so help me God.

Fools, we have plenty of. What we (this earth) are in need of are exponents of Reality.

icchā śakttirūmā kumāri || śiva sutras 1.13
I yield to svāmī Lakṣman-jū's translation: for such a yogī his will is one with the energy of the Lord


As I see it in this state of accomplishment, this brahmvidvarishta or brahma sakshtkara ( the Self-Realized one), one's actions are His ( the Lord's) actions. One has nothing to achieve, all has been achieved.

This 'devotion' or saṃghaṭṭa is there 7x24x365 days a year; one becomes the extention of Him. This is the complete fulfillment of Kṛṣṇa's teachings in the Bhāgavad gītā.

I thank you for taking the time to address my questions and will leave my questions (and doubts) for another time.


dhanyavāda and praṇām


words
saṃghaṭṭa संघट्ट- union; rubbing or clashing together

unata
12 September 2009, 01:48 AM
hariḥ oṁ
Fools, we have plenty of. What we (this earth) are in need of are exponents of Reality.

I thank you for taking the time to address my questions and will leave my questions (and doubts) for another time.
words
saṃghaṭṭa संघट्ट- union; rubbing or clashing together

Namaste yajvan ji,

He has already spoken. He is a great soul so you and that other fool do not undrtstand this great soul. He has already given a fitting reply which is repeated below:




I am self-realised. Oh yes I am!

Unfortunately it does not provide me with any means of paying the bills.


He has already told amply clearly in what disdain he holds even the concept of Self Realisation. He is bright new star -- a servanyt of Prabhupada, who rightly called other fake Indian Gurus, who taught of fake Self Realisation as Cheaters and Rascals.

Jai Shri Krishna

yajvan
12 September 2009, 11:13 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté unata





Namaste yajvan ji,

He has already spoken. He is a great soul so you and that other fool do not undrtstand this great soul. He has already given a fitting reply which is repeated below:

He has already told amply clearly in what disdain he holds even the concept of Self Realisation. He is bright new star -- a servanyt of Prabhupada, who rightly called other fake Indian Gurus, who taught of fake Self Realisation as Cheaters and Rascals. Jai Shri Krishna

Your comprehension is different then mine... If from your POV you see the answer clearly, then your assessment is fair and just. I do not see this and have stated this in my posts. This does not suggest bhaktajan's words are wrong, they just fall short of a simple, easy to understand reply.

you mention

what disdain he holds even the concept of Self Realisation.
Yet bhaktajan offers in post 6 the following:

I am self-realised. Oh yes I am! I am happy for this. My intent was to find-out the experience and the path to this realization; yet I read of no disdain in post 6.

For me then I am perplexed by post 16; bhaktajan offers:

I do not claim that I possess the following qualities:
Brahma-bhuta/brahma-nirvanam (free from false ego & free from material contamination and situated as one with the Absolute)


When I compare and contrast the posts ( 6 and 16) , I am left trying to better understand the experience and what just has been said and read two distinct messages.
What would help correct the confusion? For me the question of experiencing turiya¹ continually would assist my understanding; this is from the śāstra-s as they point to the realized-one and the continuum of this experience.

This say the wise, is the simple, natural experience that one does not loose in wake, dream or sleep - these levels of consciousness are just an extension of the 4th.

So by suggesting brahma-bhūta¹ is not the experience that is stabilized and the regular ~possessed~ state of being then turīyātīta¹ , I am (still) at a loss for what bhaktajan defines as 'self-realised' per his words.

If you have a better way of explaining this, I am eager to hear your knowledge, POV and any śāstric reference that would compliment your response , I'd be grateful. I offered mine above from the śiva sutras and from the Yogadarśana of Patañjali and am happy to offer more.

Please point out the blemishes in my comprehension so that I too can see what you see.

praṇām


words

brahma ब्रह्म - the one self-existent Existence, the Absolute ; note the following derivatives - in the nominative¹ noun brahma is used for the impersonal Spirit and the nominative masculine case is brahmā for the personal god
The nominative case is the usual, natural form.
bhūta भूत- become , been ; obtained
nirvāṇa निर्वाण- immersed, plunged i.e. final emancipation from matter and re-union with the Supreme Spirit
turiya तुरीय - the forth part; turīyātīta¹ तुरीयातीत beyond the 4th.

unata
12 September 2009, 11:43 AM
~~~~~~
Namasté unata
Your comprehension is different then mine...
Namaste yajvan ji,

Obviously. Please read together:


I am self-realised. Oh yes I am!
Unfortunately it does not provide me with any means of paying the bills.

A Self realised helps other pay off their unpaid bills (karma). Self realised is not concerned of his bills. He has no bills to pay. Karma has washed away from the Self Realised.

If you are still unclear then, I will pm you.

Jai Shri Krishna

yajvan
12 September 2009, 01:03 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté unata


My POV has little to do with income... that is, I comprehend this

Unfortunately it does not provide me with any means of paying the bills.



my position is simple :
"I am self-realised. Oh yes I am!" does not = "I do not claim that I possess the following qualities:Brahma-bhuta/brahma-nirvanam (free from false ego & free from material contamination and situated as one with the Absolute)"


Thank you for your offer on your personal PM ; at this point I think I will leave my my vision on this matter on hold, and continue to revert back to my teachings, study, personal experience, and what the wise suggest about kaivala¹.

Thank you again for taking the time to respond and giving mindful thought to your answers.


praṇām

kaivala कैवल also written kevala केवल - is simple , pure , uncompounded , unmingled ; perfect unity;

bhaktajan
12 September 2009, 03:14 PM
unata,

thank you for your opinion.

Intelligence/Knowledge (veda) signifies "ability to discriminate".

For example, ability to discriminate between Butter & Cheese constitutes Intelligence/Knowledge.

So if one is ignorant/fool/bestial, one cannot discern nor discriminate between 'this and that'.

Utana,
Look at your visage in the Looking Glass and you will see your the reverse image ---yet you are the same person in dual forms, one is you the other a pseudo-image. Be proud that you can see straight.

atanu
12 September 2009, 10:05 PM
Utana,

Look at your visage in the Looking Glass and you will see your the reverse image ---yet you are the same person in dual forms, one is you the other a pseudo-image. Be proud that you can see straight.

Namaste bhakta,

Ya. Ya. That was very much pre-meditated. Medicine for an ignorance as wild as a wild elephant is different.

So is the Universe and Brahman, like atanu and unata. So is Siv and Vis. So is Self and self, which are images of Self in many hues. There is no Seer but Him. There is no knower but Him. Do not delude yourself. A single moon appears many in many small small poodles.

Katha Up.
2-II-9. Just as fire, though one, having entered the world, assumes a separate form in respect of every form, so does the in-dwelling Self of all beings, though one, assume a form in respect of every form, and is outside it.
2-II-10. Just as wind, though one, having entered the world, assumes a separate form in respect of each form, so does the in-dwelling Self of all beings, though one, assumes a form in respect of every form and is outside it.
2-II-11. Just as the sun, which is the eye of the entire world, is not tainted by the external impurities seen by the eyes, so also, the in-dwelling Self of all beings, though one, is not tainted by the sorrows of the world, It being external.

And my rejoinders are, mostly, with love --- to put the right questions. It does not happen instantly, and no one accepts that such and such questions of atanu helped, but I have seen many get the light that "Oh, yes, it is impossible to know the truth being the untruth".

With Love,

Om Namah Shivaya

coolbodhi
14 September 2009, 11:13 PM
I am self-realised. Oh yes I am!



You are self-realised but I noticed that you keep bickering on and on with non iskconites. I call your bluff and say that you are a liar.

bhaktajan
15 September 2009, 09:50 AM
I call your bluff and say that you are a liar.

IS IT NOW MY ASSIGNED JOB TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT? LIE ABOUT WHAT?

The topic is shown above "ISKCON Translation of Svet Upanishad".

Be expert in something or other but choose something and then become a maestro and ask what service can I do for others [nevermind that they will kick and scream sometimes, that's par for the course.] Tough-love is practiced everyday by police and prison guards and fireman with axes ---they do not abandon their post because of inconvienence(s).

bhaktajan
15 September 2009, 09:55 AM
Bhaktajan: "I am self-realised. Oh yes I am!" ---does not = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "


Please, feel free to, to the best of you abilities, Fill-in the blank with all the qualities that fit the bill.

I too have countless complaints with this Bhaktajan fellow,
Bhaktajan

PS: Yes I am a servant of the servants of Sri Krishna (Vaishnava ID#: __confidential___).

coolbodhi
15 September 2009, 06:32 PM
Self realized people don't bicker and complain on public forums.

satay
19 September 2009, 12:44 AM
Admin Note

Namaskar,
Please note that making personal attacks on other members is against the rules of the forum. Please report all such posts.

Thanks,