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TatTvamAsi
17 September 2009, 03:07 PM
Namaste,

The subversion of Indian (Hindu) culture and identity by chrislamists, especially christian missionaries in India, is well known.

Here is a glaring example of how these scum use subterfuge to deceive the gullible Hindus and bribe/coerce them to convert to christianity and lose their Hindu identity:

http://hamsa.org/ashram.htm

It is absolutely disgusting and scary what tactics these lowlifes stoop to in order to convert Hindus.

It must be stopped and dealt with. The least we Hindus can do is to raise awareness in the collective consciousness by exposing these dirtbag missionaries.

Satyameva Jayate!

JAI HIND!

Namaskar.

Eastern Mind
17 September 2009, 03:24 PM
TTA:

You're absolutely correct. Deception deception deception. The worsrt story I remember was a bunch of kids on a bus on some field trip, when the bus 'broke down'. The good teachers had the kids pray to all the Hindu gods, and the bus wouldn't start. Then the good driver had them all pray to Jesus while his assistant in deception re hooked the wires. Of course the prayers to Christ worked like magic. And this was with a bunch of little kids. These guys ought to be 'sent back' for aggressive proseltysing.

Aum.

devotee
17 September 2009, 10:31 PM
Yes, the problem is gradually becoming alarming, at least in states like Kerala, Tamilnadu & tribal areas. They have already succeeded in North-Eastern part of India.

Just an idea :

Why not we Hindus too start converting people back to Hinduism aggressively by exposing them & telling our people about richness of our Dharma over theirs ? We should have something like Peace TV which should compare the doctrines of different religions. This will not only expose their childish ideas about Dharma but also make people aware of what is real Hinduism. I bet there is no religious theory which can stand face-to-face with Vedanta. It is perfectly logical & agrees with Scientific recoveries including Quantum Theory, Atomic Structure, Darwin's theory of evolution etc.

OM

Sagefrakrobatik
29 October 2009, 09:02 AM
Until Hindus start to feel as confident in their religion as Christians do and they do not take there traditions for granted then Hindus might have a chance but the fact is that because most of stories behind hindu mythology are so unusual that it would be harder to prove the truth of hinduism over christianity. a lot of Christians are convinced and go through great lengths to prove their religion but Hindus seem to ambivalent on wether or not the puranas, mahabarata, vedas, Ramyana, the historocity of Krishna or other events and people in hindu history are historically true or not. Why believe in something that cannot be proven to be true?

Sorry if i offended anyone with my statements but its true.

Gotam
29 October 2009, 04:01 PM
Yes, the problem is gradually becoming alarming, at least in states like Kerala, Tamilnadu & tribal areas. They have already succeeded in North-Eastern part of India.

Just an idea :

Why not we Hindus too start converting people back to Hinduism aggressively by exposing them & telling our people about richness of our Dharma over theirs ?
Namaste,

by "aggressively", you probably mean "proactively"?

Undoubtedly, Hindu Dharma is much richer than Christian tradition. To Hindus who somehow or other have to deal with Christians or Christian culture, it can be important to understand something of Christianity. Westerners may need to redefine and transform a number of elements of their Christian faith in order to follow the path of Sanatana Dharma. They may use Christianity as a helpful "stepping stone" to their dharmic path.

But bringing Christian spirituality to India is like carrying water to the ocean, and what the missionaries do is not even that. If they were spiritual, they would not convert. The mainstream Christian idea of conversion is in fact a perversion of the original concept meaning awakening to a higher consciousness. The Christian churches have killed the dharmic elements in Christianity. That is why they can easily do a similar job in India.

But I am reminded of Mahatma Gandhi's wisdom. He said something like "if we fight the British with the weapens they enslaved us with, our slavery will still be with us when they are gone". Besides, is not it beneath the dignity of a Hindu to apply the same strategy as the missionaries?

Now what alternatives are there? I have my ideas, but perhaps it is not proper for a person alien to Hindu culture and who has never been in India to give his view, sorry if I have already gone too far.

yajvan
30 October 2009, 08:48 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté Gotam,



But bringing Christian spirituality to India is like carrying water to the ocean,...

Excellent.

praṇām

chandu_69
31 October 2009, 06:24 PM
Until Hindus start to feel as confident in their religion as Christians do and they do not take there traditions for granted then Hindus might have a chance

You have a point there.Many hindus are less informed about their own religion compared to a muslim or a christian.


but the fact is that because most of stories behind hindu mythology are so unusual that it would be harder to prove the truth of hinduism over christianityNot unusual compared to God dying for sins of humans;).


a lot of Christians are convinced and go through great lengths to prove their religion That is mass hypnotism working well(for the christians).But it doesnt make much effort to demolish the logic of christianity.The Main problem with Hindus is that there are not prepared to do that.

A few quotes from bible are adequate to demolish the proof of christianity; such as the challenge by jews

Matthew 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

The jews asked the jesus to prove that he is indeed son of god and what did jesus offer by way of proof?

bible:
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Harjas Kaur
01 November 2009, 01:28 AM
but the fact is that because most of stories behind hindu mythology are so unusual that it would be harder to prove the truth of hinduism over christianity Not unusual compared to God dying for sins of humans;).I couldn't really get past the story of Adam and Eve and how lusting after an apple cursed the human race forever. It's just so illogical. Not really a philosophical system at all, just some blind beliefs.

This reminds me of a great explanation of the Christian Trinity from an old film. Some petty crooks were hiding out in a convent pretending to be nuns.
Nuns on the Run - Holy Trinity Explained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBYs__VRqBs

isavasya
01 November 2009, 02:54 AM
Namaste all,

This conversion issue is really a challenge which we must accept, the best way to fight against them is to spread true sanatan dharm feelings in heart of our fellow hindus, who are taught by media and secular education that all religion are true ,including those who throw people to eternal hell for not believing in their faith. I have close friend who is related to a hindu sanstha, his work is to keep an eye on missionaries in his locality and educate people about baseless claims of missionaries against sanatan dharm. From what he has told, missionaries are quite intelligent, at first they find poor families in dire need of help, then help people financially ,pretending to be friend, after that when they are a little trustable, they start preaching their only true path to heaven and also claiming hinduism a polytheistic religion.

It is a pity that these people have made faith a commodity that can be bought and sold in market, but its also a duty of we common hindus to take up the challenge and start spreading the dharm & dharmic thoughts among our friends and fellow hindus.

renuka
01 November 2009, 05:51 AM
i agree that missionares of any kind bring seen and unseen danger to the Hindu society.
firstly we Hindus should revamp our religous approach.
we should really sincerely accept every Hindu individual irrespsective of caste and creed into the Sanathana Dharma fold.
we should not discriminate people by cast.
when a Hindu feels unwelcomed in a temple he is going to convert to another religion as the missionaries will play on the point of caste.
we have to try to educate society that the 4 fold Varna caste system was started as a functional socio economic systems based on Gunas and not necessarily on Birth Right.
no doubt it has become a birth right now but we can choose to ignore it when it comes to realising God.
children from the lesser economic group should be educated in Human Values and religion.
Learning of sanskrit language should be revived and encouraged.
let everyone know Santhana Dharma and Vedic prayers only then no intruder will aproach a Hindu.
Hindus can practice Ahimsa but at times we should stand up for our rights not in an aggressive way but in a firm way.
being a Hindu I admire the courage Muslims have. they would not give up their religion even at gun point.
we need not hate anyone but we have love ourselfs.
firstly we should consider ourself lucky to be born in Sanathana Dharma no matter which caste we are.
Love Thyself and You will Realize God.

Eastern Mind
01 November 2009, 07:21 AM
We (most of us) have been down this thread before. Perhaps something new will come of it this time. Perhaps not. My point remains the same as it did before. Words do not equal action. We can talk and talk of this problem all we want, but until we actually put our words (or money, as the saying goes) into action, then all this is moot.

I 'm out of India, so other than education or protest directed at the Christians here, I cannot work much with Hindus who are swaying between the two faiths. Building this temple here did help, as before that the only choice was to go to Church. Some immigrant Hindus did just that.

Why not befriend a low-caste person or family in your community and invite him to your own temple?

Why not find a tract of literature regarding the greatness of our faith, have 100 or 1000 copies printed, and go to a 'tribal area' and distribute it?

Write a letter to your member of parliament stating you will only vote for a party that wants to ban proselytising of any kind.


Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
01 November 2009, 07:45 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté Harjas Kaur


I couldn't really get past the story of Adam and Eve and how lusting after an apple cursed the human race forever. It's just so illogical. Not really a philosophical system at all, just some blind beliefs.

The notion of saṃketa , a hint, symbol is used often. What if ( just if) adam and eve were the symbols of two forces, two qualities found in this universe? And what of this Garden of Eden? A state of awareness perhaps? And how does one enter or exit that Garden?

What if it were a story of purity and that level of purity does not co-mingle quite well with the material side of the universe ( depicted by the snake), but this purity is its total support?
One gets thrown out of the Garden when the senses are engrossed in the material side of life ( the apple) i.e. one gets pushed out of pure consciousness when the senses engage and are swayed by objects of desire.

I am not saying this is the correct view of this metaphor, the Garden of Eden. What I am saying is, it not a literal representation of an act or of history. There is more to the story then meets the eye - just as there is more to the story of the symbols, ideals, saṃketa, that we find in the purāṇa-s, upaniṣads, etc. In our literature it takes the wise to see the story behind the story.


Perhaps we can 'rent out' some of our wise to the Christians to help them better understand their own literature? The whole wisdom of relating a word to its meaning on 3 levels.

praṇām

Harjas Kaur
02 November 2009, 12:53 AM
I am not saying this is the correct view of this metaphor, the Garden of Eden. What I am saying is, it not a literal representation of an act or of history. Allow me to give you some background on this story jios. The genesis story isn't the only creation story of the Christians. It is the only version of the creation story to have survived within Christian churches. Now, I intend to prove on this forum how the original, deeply philosophical and metaphysical teachings of Christianity became distorted and how that oversimplification resulted in blind beliefs without philosophical logic or depth of symbolism.


1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." ~Genesis 1:1-3Sounds a bit simple don't you think? Compare with the version below:


"Seeing that everybody, gods of the world and mankind, says that nothing existed prior to chaos, I, in distinction to them, shall demonstrate that they are all mistaken, because they are not acquainted with the origin of chaos, nor with its root. Here is the demonstration.

How well it suits all men, on the subject of chaos, to say that it is a kind of darkness! But in fact it comes from a shadow, which has been called by the name 'darkness'. And the shadow comes from a product that has existed since the beginning. It is, moreover, clear that it existed before chaos came into being, and that the latter is posterior to the first product. Let us therefore concern ourselves with the facts of the matter; and furthermore, with the first product, from which chaos was projected. And in this way the truth will be clearly demonstrated.

After the natural structure of the immortal beings had completely developed out of the infinite, a likeness then emanated from Pistis (Faith); it is called Sophia (Wisdom). It exercised volition and became a product resembling the primeval light. And immediately her will manifested itself as a likeness of heaven, having an unimaginable magnitude; it was between the immortal beings and those things that came into being after them, like [...]: she (Sophia) functioned as a veil dividing mankind from the things above." ~On the Origin of the World, Nag Hammadi Library, Gnostic Gospels http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.html

Here is another comparison:


1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,

3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.

5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." ~Genesis chap. 2: 1-13Gnostic version:


Now when the heavens had consolidated themselves along with their forces and all their administration, the prime parent became insolent. And he was honored by all the army of angels. And all the gods and their angels gave blessing and honor to him. And for his part, he was delighted and continually boasted, saying to them, "I have no need of anyone." He said, "It is I who am God, and there is no other one that exists apart from me." And when he said this, he sinned against all the immortal beings who give answer. And they laid it to his charge.

Then when Pistis saw the impiety of the chief ruler, she was filled with anger. She was invisible. She said, "You are mistaken, Samael," (that is, "blind god"). "There is an immortal man of light who has been in existence before you, and who will appear among your modelled forms; he will trample you to scorn, just as potter's clay is pounded... http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.htmlIn the Gnostic version, the One "jealous" God who claimed he alone existed and no other god was existing has sinned and proven his blind ignorance. And was told that a superior being of Light, higher than he was, would appear in one of his created forms.


And the tree of eternal life is as it appeared by God's will, to the north of Paradise, so that it might make eternal the souls of the pure, who shall come forth from the modelled forms of poverty at the consummation of the age... And this tree is to the north of Paradise, so that it might arouse the souls from the torpor of the demons, http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.htmlThe human beings were light coming from higher realms encased in physical forms patterned after beasts. And the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil granted the ability to understand that the forces controlling them were demons. The Gnostic version literally says the Creator God of the Bible is a demon! That he is not the true creator or the only god! And that he tried through fear to prevent Gnosis/knowledge from being part of the human race.

So, that god's ignorance, fear, and cursing of human race was a demonic power that enlightenment through the Gnosis was said to liberate the light of man encased in form.

When Sophia let fall a droplet of light, it flowed onto the water, and immediately a human being appeared, being androgynous. That droplet she molded first as a female body. Afterwards, using the body she molded it in the likeness of the mother...

After the day of rest, Sophia sent her daughter Zoe, being called Eve, as an instructor, in order that she might make Adam, who had no soul, arise, so that those whom he should engender might become containers of light.

When Eve saw her male counterpart prostrate, she had pity upon him, and she said, "Adam! Become alive! Arise upon the earth!" Immediately her word became accomplished fact. For Adam, having arisen, suddenly opened his eyes. When he saw her, he said, "You shall be called 'Mother of the Living'. For it is you who have given me life." http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.htmlIn the Gnostic version of creation story Eve the Mother gives life to Adam. But in the Genesis story, Eve was fashioned from Adam's rib, and thus born from a man, illogical since mother is female always. The Christian version is highly edited to make the Demonic power into the Creator god, and curse the Tree of Knowledge/Gnosis, and to claim life is born from the man, not the woman. So the philosophical symbolism is completely illogical and manipulated, because these ancient wisdom teachings fell into the hands of fanatics who didn't understand them.


They came up to Adam and Eve timidly: they said to him, "The fruit of all the trees created for you in Paradise shall be eaten; but as for the tree of knowledge, control yourselves and do not eat from it. If you eat, you will die." Having imparted great fear to them, they withdrew up to their authorities.

Then came the wisest of all creatures, who was called Beast. And when he saw the likeness of their mother Eve he said to her, "What did God say to you? Was it 'Do not eat from the tree of knowledge'?" She said, "He said not only, 'Do not eat from it', but, 'Do not touch it, lest you die.'" He said to her, "Do not be afraid. In death you shall not die. For he knows that when you eat from it, your intellect will become sober and you will come to be like gods, recognizing the difference that obtains between evil men and good ones. Indeed, it was in jealousy that he said this to you, so that you would not eat from it."

Now Eve had confidence in the words of the instructor. She gazed at the tree and saw that it was beautiful and appetizing, and liked it; she took some of its fruit and ate it; and she gave some also to her husband, and he too ate it. Then their intellect became open. For when they had eaten, the light of knowledge had shone upon them. http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.html
Then the rulers came up to the instructor. Their eyes became misty because of him, and they could not do anything to him. They cursed him, since they were powerless. Afterwards, they came up to the woman and cursed her and her offspring. After the woman, they cursed Adam, and the land because of him, and the crops; and all things they had created, they cursed. They have no blessing. Good cannot result from evil... Thus when Sophia Zoe saw that the rulers of the darkness had laid a curse upon her counterparts, she was indignant. And coming out of the first heaven with full power, she chased those rulers out of their heavens, and cast them down into the sinful world, so that there they should dwell, in the form of evil spirits (demons) upon the earth. http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.htmlThe jealous blind god of the Genesis creation story and his band of friends became demons cast out of Paradise by Goddess Wisdom, the mother of Gnosis/Knowledge intended to liberate human race from slavery of spiritual ignorance.

So yes, it IS my contention that Christian religion as it modernly is, has been hijacked from it's original philosophical systems rendering much of it's symbolism illogical and having for thousands years been creeds requiring submission of blind faith, under threats and penalties of torture and death.

It is clear that evil forces won the day in which version of Christian religion became foremost. It was the fundamentalists and their history of persecutions who have given the Abrahamic (Patriarch of the original ignorant Demonic god) version of religion to the world. And this IS the basis of Christian MISSIONARY zeal, the intent to intolerantly OBLITERATE competing belief structures. And that conclusion is based on simple reading of their own suppressed scriptures.

Now I will qualify: As Bhagavan Krishna has said that even the bhoota worshippers, if sincerely worshipping, that worship goes to HIM. Individual Christian people may be good people, and they will gravitate to those higher teachings which within their system which are good. But we can't deceive ourselves with blind liberalism to the reality of Christian history or the evil intent of missionary propaganda to demolish competing beliefs.
http://journeywithjesus.net/Essays/spanish_inquisition_small.jpg
Dominican friars overseeing torture during Inquisition

http://www.languedoc-france.info/misc/posters/10053262.jpg
Catholic massacre of Albigensian heretics

Abrahamic religions have been obliterating spiritual and philosophical light for centuries, from their very inception, according to their own scriptures.

yajvan
02 November 2009, 08:26 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté Harjas Kaur


Thank you for your efforts and insights you have offered on your post. Please note, that my post was coming from the position of symbols used to tell a story. As I read some of the Gnostic versions you offer, it too offers these symbols albiet not the same i.e. a droplet of light:


When Sophia let fall a droplet of light, it flowed onto the water, and immediately a human being appeared, being androgynous

That said, you also offer the following


original, deeply philosophical and metaphysical teachings of Christianity became distorted and how that oversimplification resulted in blind beliefs without philosophical logic or depth of symbolism.


Sure, I am fine with that and hope to review and learn a new perspective from your posts. I have no plans to defend Christian doctrine that is not my desire, only to look deeper and wider with an open mind as my rudder.


praṇām

chandu_69
02 November 2009, 08:46 AM
But we can't deceive ourselves with blind liberalism to the reality of Christian history or the evil intent of missionary propaganda to demolish competing beliefs.

Why Some hindus have this suicidal mentality of glorifying the imperialistic doctrine which is out to destroy the hindu faith is just beyond my comprehension.

jaggin
03 November 2009, 07:10 AM
I had to chuckle at the sight of priests in orange robes. Part of the problem for Christian missionaries is that Christianity is viewed as an arm of western colonialization. It isn't deceit to change the cultural context to a more familiar one since Christianity was intended by God to be universal.

The question is whether it is better for Christianity to replace Hindu culture or adapt to it. The danger exists to Hindu culture because God is not likely to be stopped. You might as well try stopping the wind by blowing on it. There is an old saying "If you can't lick'm; join'm."

I attended service at a Korean Methodist Church and the hymns were sung in Korean but the tunes were definitely western. Is culture important? I don't really know but to a person who believes in cultural preservation I suppose it is. Does McDonalds in India serve curry or Big Macs?

atanu
03 November 2009, 08:10 AM
I had to chuckle at the sight of priests in orange robes. Part of the problem for Christian missionaries is that Christianity is viewed as an arm of western colonialization. It isn't deceit to change the cultural context to a more familiar one since Christianity was intended by God to be universal.

Namaste jaggin,

Are you sure that your exuberance and confidence about universality of christianity is not actually a view through rosy goggles of apparent success of western colonization? Can you separate out your confidence from the effect of successes of colonizer businessmen -- who pathetically robe themselves in orange sometimes?

Much of the so-called appeal of christianity is in the false glitter of stinking lucre accumulated through a few centuries (especially the last century) by means of mass plunder, outright loot and dealings of drug and armament.

Eh?

Om

satay
03 November 2009, 08:50 AM
Namaskar,


Does McDonalds in India serve curry or Big Macs?

At last, a 'christian' that has the honesty to compare his religion with an established business.

Correct, christianity is a business. McCurry it is. Sell us your product? I for one am not looking to buy.
Thanks,

devotee
03 November 2009, 10:10 AM
At last, a 'christian' that has the honesty to compare his religion with an established business.
Correct, christianity is a business. McCurry it is. Sell us your product? I for one am not looking to buy.


Well said, Satay !

Namaste Jaggin,


It isn't deceit to change the cultural context to a more familiar one since Christianity was intended by God to be universal.

May be it is just the opposite ! May be whatever the church preaches is nothing but fraud ! How do you know that God wanted Christianity to be a universal religion wiping out the others ? You are not God's personal assistant ... or are you ?


The question is whether it is better for Christianity to replace Hindu culture or adapt to it.

That is what Osama thinks about replacing Christianity with Islam. First of all, you both decide who represents God, then we can listen to you. OK ?


The danger exists to Hindu culture because God is not likely to be stopped. You might as well try stopping the wind by blowing on it. There is an old saying "If you can't lick'm; join'm."

You have been brainwashed by the Christian missionary & you do sound like an extremist. May I suggest you to control yourself before you harm yourself in your own deluded world ?

First of all, find God for yourself. Did Christianity make you a better human being. You have just become a hater of those who don't agree with your idea of God ? Please don't try to act like an agent of God. If you think that God is Omnipotent, does he need you or people like you to promote himself ? It is not but Satan within you who says such things ... replacing Hindu culture with Christianity !

Keeping your age in view and that you are an old member on this forum, I am not happy to use this language against you but you have crossed the limits this time.

OM

sunyata07
03 November 2009, 12:09 PM
Namaste,



Part of the problem for Christian missionaries is that Christianity is viewed as an arm of western colonialization.


Sorry, but allow me to alter your quote a little:


Part of the problem for Christian missionaries is that Christianity is an arm of western colonialization.

That's the problem with Christianity. From the time it rose and thrived in late ancient Roman times, it has become the very force it was once persecuted for. Look at how many cultures and societies have been destroyed, how many people brutally tortured and killed for the "salvation of their souls". All the Western empires conquered the new worlds under the banner of their own ideals of white, Western righteousness - a lame imitation religion of Judaism. Ironically, the great civilisations of the Americas were felled at the arrival of invaders from Spain claiming to spread faith and hope to a heathen land. A land that had already seen such brilliant architecture, mathematics, knowledge of astronomy and sophisticated road systems. What was the result of these new white masters? Disease, slavery, pillaging of gold and precious stones, destruction of ancient religious customs, cultural upheaval and the ruination of some of the greatest civilisations ever known. You are under some serious delusions if you don't think Christianity and colonisation fit each other like a hand and glove!

For myself, I feel sympathy for true Christians, if there really are any real ones left in the world, that they have to suffer the proselytising attitude of the mass portrayal they have in the media. Seriously, how many of you don't roll your ideas when you hear the word Christianity these days? Who doesn't think of some religious Bible-thumping nut when you hear the word Christian? Is it any wonder so many people in the west have lost faith and turned atheistic? The true essence of its original teachings like compassion, love for one's neighbour and peace and brotherhood is all but lost on the obsession missionaries have with saving - I mean, converting every soul they encounter. Only too recently have I had my eyes open to how destructive a force it can be. I've read a novel recently, called The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver and it covers just about everything that is wrong with the Christian approach to spreading the message of the "good book". Yes, there is some integrity and spiritual truth left, but it is really quite small and eventually whatever goodness left of it will be more or less negligible.

But you are right about one thing though, it has the shamelessness of a business organisation.

TatTvamAsi
28 November 2009, 02:03 PM
As Neitzsche himself said, "The first and last christian died on the cross!"

This jaggin sure has a cross stuck in him somewhere.

That which is "born" has to "die". Therefore, judaism, christianity, and islam will eventually die; hopefully sooner rather than later.

Remember, India is the last bastion of freedom! I really mean this; it is the ONLY CIVILIZATION on earth that has withstood the onslaught of the untouchables (muslims/christians) for over 1300 years and still remains predominantly Hindu in culture, people, and mind!

Again as Toynbee stated, "India the conquered will become India the conquerer!" (Through mind and cutlure I believe).

JAI HIND!


Namaste,



Sorry, but allow me to alter your quote a little:



That's the problem with Christianity. From the time it rose and thrived in late ancient Roman times, it has become the very force it was once persecuted for. Look at how many cultures and societies have been destroyed, how many people brutally tortured and killed for the "salvation of their souls". All the Western empires conquered the new worlds under the banner of their own ideals of white, Western righteousness - a lame imitation religion of Judaism. Ironically, the great civilisations of the Americas were felled at the arrival of invaders from Spain claiming to spread faith and hope to a heathen land. A land that had already seen such brilliant architecture, mathematics, knowledge of astronomy and sophisticated road systems. What was the result of these new white masters? Disease, slavery, pillaging of gold and precious stones, destruction of ancient religious customs, cultural upheaval and the ruination of some of the greatest civilisations ever known. You are under some serious delusions if you don't think Christianity and colonisation fit each other like a hand and glove!

For myself, I feel sympathy for true Christians, if there really are any real ones left in the world, that they have to suffer the proselytising attitude of the mass portrayal they have in the media. Seriously, how many of you don't roll your ideas when you hear the word Christianity these days? Who doesn't think of some religious Bible-thumping nut when you hear the word Christian? Is it any wonder so many people in the west have lost faith and turned atheistic? The true essence of its original teachings like compassion, love for one's neighbour and peace and brotherhood is all but lost on the obsession missionaries have with saving - I mean, converting every soul they encounter. Only too recently have I had my eyes open to how destructive a force it can be. I've read a novel recently, called The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver and it covers just about everything that is wrong with the Christian approach to spreading the message of the "good book". Yes, there is some integrity and spiritual truth left, but it is really quite small and eventually whatever goodness left of it will be more or less negligible.

But you are right about one thing though, it has the shamelessness of a business organisation.

sanjaya
28 November 2009, 11:48 PM
As Neitzsche himself said, "The first and last christian died on the cross!"

This jaggin sure has a cross stuck in him somewhere.

That which is "born" has to "die". Therefore, judaism, christianity, and islam will eventually die; hopefully sooner rather than later.

Remember, India is the last bastion of freedom! I really mean this; it is the ONLY CIVILIZATION on earth that has withstood the onslaught of the untouchables (muslims/christians) for over 1300 years and still remains predominantly Hindu in culture, people, and mind!

Again as Toynbee stated, "India the conquered will become India the conquerer!" (Through mind and cutlure I believe).

JAI HIND!

Yes, I agree. The true strength of Hinduism lies in its ability to persuade without force or compulsion. In our 5000+ year history, India has never gone on a conquering spree, and indeed we have been conquered on numerous occasions. But unlike Christian Europe or the Islamic Middle East, we never lost our culture and religion. Today India is still upwards of 80% Hindu. The Bhagavad Gita stands apart from other religious texts. In most religions, God commands "thou shalt..." to his followers, and they obey on pain of death or hell. Contrast this with the humility of Sri Krishna. Though he is God, and though all people and things are his by right, he never imposed his will on Arjuna, but persuaded him with logic and reason. Threats of eternal condemnation bring obedience from fear, but Krishna's way brings obedience that is genuine. With a religion such as ours, who needs to engage in missionary conquests?

Though this is an old thread, I've been reading the posts. I think that Jaggin is being genuine, but he may have bought into some misinformation. He said, "Christianity was intended by God to be universal." But the fact is that it isn't universal. For most of its two thousand year history, Christianity has been a religion of, by, and for white Westerners. Even in Eastern countries like South Korea where Christianity has made inroads, it has Westernized the culture in the process. Nothing at all against Westerners, but the claim of universality just doesn't work. The New Testament was written in a Greek context, and uses Western logic. It employs very Western modes of argument. And its understanding of individuality and community is very Western as well. In Christianity faith is an individual decision, but the individual must then become part of a community (i.e. a church). In Hinduism, one's religion is determined essentially by birth, but one's religious practice can be individual (e.g. there's no dictum to join a church and submit oneself to the leadership). Hinduism and Christianity fundamentally disagree on the importance of family. In Hindu culture it's common for brothers and sisters to live together with their parents into adulthood and marriage. This disagrees with the very beginning of the Bible, which says, "therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife." How can Christianity be universal when it disagrees with the very principles on which Indian Hindu culture is based?

And this is not just some academic discussion. Missionaries in India are destroying entire communities by converting Hindus and then forcing them to cut all ties with their "pagan" families. Christianity ruins families. It would be better if Christian missionaries would stick to converting Westerners in their own countries who have turned to atheism. A white atheist who becomes a Christian can very easily get along with his family, who probably have Christian roots. But for an Indian to convert to Christianity means that he must declare war on his family and culture.

The fact is that Christianity is as much a Western religion as Hinduism is an Indian one. This doesn't mean that we can't all peacefully coexist, but the Western Christians really need to stop sending missionaries to India. Let them preach all the hellfire and brimstone that they please in their churches, but I wish that they would fix their own materialistic culture instead of poisoning ours.

atanu
29 November 2009, 08:11 AM
On the Silent Unborn Music


Danger from materialistic translators and materialistic thinkers

Possibly the spirit wants some people to remain unaware of it. So they translate aja ekapad as 'one footed goat' or similar. They see penis in linga. They also see exhortation to violence and war in scriptures.

I found this excellent observation of Antonio T. de Nicolas:


For example, reading other people's translations of the Rig Veda, to which I had dedicated several books and my own translations, I was dismayed at the following. The Sanskrit phrase: aja ekapad which literally means "aja" the unborn, unmanifested, "ekapada" one (musical) measure, or as St. John of the Cross called it " the silent music," is translated by a modern, respected Orientalist as " the one footed goat." The translator, coming from the left side of the neocortex, found that in old Phoenician and in Hebrew "aja" also means goat, so it took the translator no time to cover the "unmanifested" with a goat.

This example pales in comparison to the biological atrocities the Christian stories have inflicted on believers with no spiritual exercises. From Yahweh to Mary, mother of Jesus, there are left brain prestidigitations, to establish the legitimacy of Jesus' birth that have kept theologians awake for centuries and have caused pain to believers. In other words, if faith were based on the false beliefs they forced on people, God would have no chance. But, perhaps, the myths they gave us are simply attached to their wrong models. They are obsolete. Faith is one space beyond, before any stories.

The story here:http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/i_es/i_es_denic_neural_frameset.htm (a good esoteric write up).

Om Namah Shivaya

Harjas Kaur
29 November 2009, 06:15 PM
Danger from materialistic translators and materialistic thinkers

Possibly the spirit wants some people to remain unaware of it. So they translate aja ekapad as 'one footed goat' or similar. They see penis in linga. They also see exhortation to violence and war in scriptures. For one thing, this is assuming there is a spiritual message in Abrahamic scriptures to be distorted by translators. Before you can assume a spiritual interpretation as corruption, it needs to be analyzed whether the corruption was already there, present in those scriptures. In which case it would be "materialistic scriptures," rather then translators fault. The Christian scriptures are the most studied scriptures in the world, entire Universities have been dedicated to their scholarship. I do not think we are looking at simplistic mistakes in translation.

Take for example the Jewish Torah, written in Hebrew and added to historical texts such as Kings, written in Aramaic, then a thousand year leap to a "New Testament" written in Greek. Where is the basis of "sruti" in such a construction? Is there a revealed spiritual truth in the Pauline scriptures written a hundred years after the lifetime of a historical Jesus by a man who never met him?

You see, Christian scriptures have written about a man, they were never authored by him. You have competing extant political scenarios in each of these accounts. On one hand the gospels themselves reflect the divisions between the current kingship and authority of an illegitimate high priesthood, as there were competing dynasties. Jesus and John the Baptist were reflecting the "legitimate" legacy and claims being made such as "true High Priest" and "true son of King David." For that there would have to be a "false" authority and that would be in King Herod as descendent of the Maccabean dynasty (non-Davidic line) and illegitimacy of the non-Tzadokite Priesthood.

Regarding Jesus Kingly lineage:
3 The Good News is about his Son. In his earthly life he was born into King David’s family line,4 ~Romans chap. 1


Regarding John-the-Baptist's Priestly lineage:
5In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. ~Luke chap. 1


Regarding confrontation of illegitimate authorities of the day:
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. ~Mat. chap. 3
Incipient anti-Semitism has long been part of the Christian scriptures, reflecting the bias of the authority of the Holy Roman Catholic Church as the compiler of the Christian Bible. So there is a scenario where the Roman governor Pontius Pilate has a wife who is a "secret" Christian, who has warning dreams telling her husband not to do anything to Jesus. Pilate "washes his hands" absolving himself even as he is the sole authority to execute Jesus, blame gets transferred onto the Jews as the instigators of the crucifixion. This is the origin of the Jewish "blood curse."

Ιδων δε ο Πιλατος οτι ουδεν ωφελει αλλα μαλλον θορυβος γινεται, λαβων υδωρ απενιψατο τας χειρας απεναντι του οχλου, λεγων αθωος ειμι απο του αιματος του δικαιου τουτου; υμεις οψεσθε. Και αποκριθεις πας ο λαος ειπεν, το αιμα αυτου εφ ημας και επι τα τεκνα ημων. Greek New Testament

Videns autem Pilatus quia nihil proficeret sed magis tumultus fieret, accepta aqua lavit manus coram populo, dicens innocens ego sum a sanguine iusti huius: vos videritis. Et respondens universus populus dixit: Sanguis eius super nos et super filios nostros. Vulgate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate)

When Pilate saw that he could not prevail, but rather that a tumult was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just person. See ye to it." Then answered all the people and said, "His blood be on us, and on our children!" (KJV)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_curseWith these kind of political undercurrents weaving throughout the scriptural cannon, how can translations alone be blamed? The very construction of the Christian religion has been political and exclusionary, confrontational and condemning. In it's very construction it posits a true and a false, a divine and a satanic, a blessed and a cursed worldview.
http://bestofjesus.com/lastdaysofjesus/s19elbxme/Pilate_Washes_Hands.jpg
Pontius Pilate washes his hands of responsibility

The Children of the Devil

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."~John chap. 8


9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10

So who do the Christian missionaries think the Hindu's are? Legitimate or illegitimate spiritual lineage? Children of God or the devil? You see, it's no mistake of translation or materialism of interpreters. The Christian scriptures themselves, just as the Muslim Koran, are the problem. And that is why they have given birth to thousand years of warfare and intolerant suppression of different religions...because of what they TEACH, and not only how they are interpreted.

sanjaya
30 November 2009, 01:40 AM
So who do the Christian missionaries think the Hindu's are? Legitimate or illegitimate spiritual lineage? Children of God or the devil? You see, it's no mistake of translation or materialism of interpreters. The Christian scriptures themselves, just as the Muslim Koran, are the problem. And that is why they have given birth to thousand years of warfare and intolerant suppression of different religions...because of what they TEACH, and not only how they are interpreted.


That's a good point. Christianity teaches that there are two types of people in the world: the people of God and the people of the devil. To be fair, Hinduism teaches something similar,
There are only two types (or castes) of human beings in this world: The divine, or the wise; and the demonic, or the ignorant. The divine has been described at length, now hear from Me about the demonic, O Arjuna. Persons of demonic nature do not know what to do and what not to do. They neither have purity nor good conduct nor truthfulness. They say: The world is unreal, without a substratum, without a God, and without an order. Sexual union of man and woman alone and nothing else causes the world. Adhering to this wrong atheist view, these degraded souls — with small intellect and cruel deeds ¾ are born as enemies for the destruction of the world.


-- Sri Krishna (Bhagavad Gita 16:6-9)
Sri Krishna says that whether one is of divine or demonic lineage depends on their personal moral traits. On the contrary, Christianity teaches that this lineage is based on whether or not one is a Christian,


Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. (John 1:12-13)
This is party where the "born again" phrase comes from. This doctrine says that salvation comes by belief in religious creeds and not moral conduct. Yes, Christianity does teach a lot of right moral behavior. But any Christian will say that a bad person who believes in Jesus will go to heaven, whereas a good person who believes in another religion will go to an eternity in hell. Of course Christianity also says that there's no such thing as a good person, because someone who commits even one sin in his life is a bad person.

So Hindus are out of luck by default. No matter how much good we do in our lives, and no matter how much we surrender to God's will, Christians still believe we are sinners destined for hell, because we refuse to give up our culture and convert to our former colonizers' Western religion. Christians will tell us that they don't hate non-Christians, but that they are trying to convert us because they love us and want us to be saved. However, I have observed that this belief in salvation-by-religious profession leads evangelical Christians to treat unbelievers much differently. Most Hindus I know don't choose their social relationships based on religion. Christians, on the other hand, have their very own culture based on religious belief. Evangelical Christians only form friendships with other Christians; in fact their churches teach them that they should only form friendships with non-Christians in order to convert them. Christians have Christian music, Christian radio, Christian television, Christian clubs, and even Christian clothing. As much as Christians protest that their belief in hell doesn't lead to hatred of non-Christians, it does precisely that. It's basically a form of segregation, except that it's based on religious profession instead of race.

In a way this reminds me of conservative Islamic law. Many fundamentalist Muslims segregate themselves in small communities as well, where they use Sharia law to form heirarchies and control each other. Christians likewise control their fellow believers within the small societies that they form. Don't get me wrong, they're not nearly as bad as their fundamentalist Muslim counterparts. But the underlying philosophy is the same. Believers are the "good people," regardless of how they behave, and other religions are likewise the "bad people," also regardless of how they behave.

Eastern Mind
01 December 2009, 06:11 PM
Vanakkam:

I suggest anyone google "flirt to convert" if you want real lows in this regard. Basically offering sexual favours in return for converting. Nice.

Aum Namasivaya

sunyata07
02 December 2009, 03:11 PM
Vanakkam:

I suggest anyone google "flirt to convert" if you want real lows in this regard. Basically offering sexual favours in return for converting. Nice.

Aum Namasivaya


Christian missionaries and sexual favours? I googled it, just because I couldn't really believe it at first. Just when I thought it wasn't possible for some Evangelists to sink any lower! I hope no lonely male is so desperate for female company that he would actually consider joining such a website! Ugh... pitching religion as a sex dating network? The very idea is repulsive. In fact, isn't the whole concept behind such a dating network completely contradictory to some of the Bible's more traditional teachings on remaining chaste before marriage?

Thanks for sharing, EM. I don't think I could have believed it otherwise.

OM Shanti

sanjaya
03 December 2009, 07:26 PM
To be fair to the Christians with regard to missionary dating, all of the evangelical Christians I know believe that this is a detestable practice. They don't believe it's detestable primarily because it's cheap and disrespectful to God, but because it might tempt the dating missionaries to sin by having sex with/marrying non-Christians. The Wikipedia article that one can find by Googling says that missionary dating is often used as an excuse for Christians to date people of the opposite sex that they are interested in without inviting the rebuke of their fellow Christians. But again, whether evangelicals oppose missionary dating for the right or wrong reasons, at least many of them seem to oppose it (according to my personal experience and Wikipedia).

Really I think that the existence of missionary dating is merely a symptom of a deeper problem in evangelical Christianity: evangelicals treat their religion as though it were a product to be sold. Here in America they have actually adopted many of the techniques of business marketing, such as flyers, television ads, billboards, etc. Famous American pastor Rick Warren, author of "The Purpose-Driven Life," and pastor of Saddleback Church, is well known for propagating his gospel message with the same strategies employed by marketing firms. When churches launch advertising campaigns like this, when their "worship" consists of loud music reminiscent of a rock concert (they do this to get more people to come to church), and when a pastor's thirty minute sermon consists of twenty minutes of stand-up comedy, it's hard to take Christianity seriously. And when one doesn't take his religion seriously, when the only thing on one's mind is propagating the message and making more converts, then I suppose that some will deviate from the religion's moral teachings and use romantic flirtation to entice conversion.

Harjas Kaur
04 December 2009, 06:42 AM
Amra jio,

There is a difference between an overly righteous attitude toward sex, and an understanding that the muladhara chakra is totally dictating a person's life so they have no freedom but operate under an external influence giving their power away.

The mind is like a rubber band. Pulled to extremes it's going to snap into the opposite extreme. Again, this is being controlled by external factors. It's reactivity, not choice, not operating from freedom. It's tension without ease, heaviness without lightness. The whole point of tantric philosophy is to understand how the mind operates, how the impulses, vasanas, reactions control you and take your freedom away. Any pleasures experienced within the burden of materiality are fleeting and ultimately unsatisfactory. You can hold someone in intimate embrace and still feel miles away all alone and unloved, uncherished. The thing people are seeking isn't found in physical embrace or drugs. What the whole world is yearning after is ecstacy. You won't find it in debachery. You will at some point in your life, have to direct those same sensual energies upwards, and purify those blocks of mind, body and heart. We all have them.

Nothing is more deeply wounded than human sexuality. It is at one point the most vulnerable part of ourselves, and that's why deeply cherishing our humanity is absolutely required for any kind of depth spiritual work. Otherwise we will simply split off what we reject deep in ourselves and throw self-projections of hatred everywhere. This is the root cause of abuses in religious orders, of things like the priest child molestation scandals, etc. And it's not limited to Catholic priests or Christian religion, though perhaps it is worst there, because as you noted, the yogic spiritual science of mind is not present in those teachings. So sexuality becomes subsumed into a form of self-rejections, projections and swinging uncontrollably to opposite extremes.

This energy must find release somewhere.
Bramacharya isn't simply "celibacy." Exactly what would be the point of it? If we live in a world of sensation as sensate beings, WHY would we renounce our basic impulses? So on the one hand, by simple definition, "celibacy" is incorrect. People can hardly be chaste with their husband or wife, let alone practice something like bramacharya.

But I think bramacharya is most misunderstood in context of spiritual sadhana. It's not merely about restraint. It's about redirection of vital energies. If you can't redirect those energies, then I suppose it's like the horse running off and dragging the rider. Even in indulgence you will be unsatisfied. Wanting, needing, lusting after something, not having what one deeply desires, is pain. Having something for only a few minutes and losing the essence of it immediately after attaining it, is pain.

Bramacharya isn't about not having. It's about reaching the stage of being undisturbed by longing. If you are redirecting those energies, you will become a true bhakta. You will experience absolute satisfaction in a far more lasting way because you are having a love affair with your Divine Beloved. I'll tell you the truth. I've never been married. And YOU don't know what you're missing! If you dissipate your vital energies physically, you won't be energetically able to maintain and have ecstatic blissful states. You can raise those energies to a higher frequency and experience them even more intensely with bhakti. For another thing, I am blessed to have a shaktipat Guru, and in my Guru's presence I can get very high for hours. When you experience this kind of thing, sexuality is just not even interesting. It just has nothing to offer which would even come close.

So it is my assertion that the abuse of sex seen in the world, and not just western, comes from experiencing ourselves at the lowest possible energetic level where the satisfaction is experienced below the gut, in a selfish and demanding way and has gotten stuck there and is not able to rise to a level which transcends the limits of the small self. It is certainly not the result of self-denials, but of self-rejections and projected anguish at the "hated" other who never gives enough of what we deeply want and desperately need, who is really a reflection of our deepest wounded nature.

True love is inner reconciliation with the lower AND the higher elements of our nature. It unites in a more complete way the flow of our spiritual energy. A true bramachari/bramacharini is able to redirect and more spontaneously and selflessly give to others energetically and in sincerity. This is the heart and power of something like Ramakrishna missions and charities. But if bramacharins were wasting that vital energy in selfish personal and petty disturbed relationships, I can assure you, the charities would be pointless because people's goals would be self-satisfaction, their thoughts, efforts and desires would be this, and not about selfless giving. The energies would be directed to prettier and more expensive houses, cars, clothing, jewelry, things, etc. Because the root nature is sensual. Only with cultivating the spiritual practice and discipline of redirection can any kind of karma yoga actually work.

And only thorough karma yoga are we liberating bondages of our reactive mind through process of "other-directed" purification. This is the process which will heal our battered human relationships of which sexuality is our deepest part. True love of others comes from the self-surrender and total self-giving of a mother and father for their children and for each other. The true power of the marriage relationship isn't the sex. It's the self-giving. All those conflicts and fights over the years are intended to polish the spiritual diamond of the heart. The sexuality is entirely secondary. After a marriage of 40 or 50 years, when one partner is dying, and the other feels so bonded, so close, so spiritually intimate that the very soul is breaking at the thought of parting, this is real love, this is real relationship. Everything else is glitter, superficial sparkles.

When the time comes for you to die, the physical encounters won't be what matters to you, but the love in the moments which came to you through unexpected sources, a smile, a look, a kind word, a kind deed. The compassionate heart of the world is the treasure and bond you will carry with you as a gift. You will take with you, not memories of physical embraces with equally selfish, uncaring encounters, but instead the essence of true love which you experienced with a child, a dog, a best friend, an injured stranger, even a flower. What gets you high will take you higher. Sexuality is just not the highest. The moments of freedom are the highest. And the freest you can be is something beyond limits which expands your heart. I'm not saying sexuality is nothing or that sexuality isn't powerful, it is. I'm just saying, there's so much more. To limit the definition of satisfaction and bliss to something physical like sexual encounter is really an injustice to ecstatic bliss.

For example, recently I had the experience where I saw a crippled old woman in line for darshan with Guru. There was something in the vulnerability of the moment where she tore off a flower from the bouquet she was holding for Guru and gave it to a nearby child. There was something in the look of frailty, her temporariness as a human being had a sweetness, some quality of Daya that overflowed from her actions and for some reason it caused tears to flow from my eyes. Because there was something so fragile, so temporary, and so precious in what I saw in that moment. This crippled old woman became the most beautiful Divine Beloved for briefest instant and inside my heart was dancing because I saw glimpse of what hides behind appearances. I saw a bit of the everlasting and undying eternal, and that is swaroop of love.

The whole world is chasing after love in so many sensate experiences. Chasing and rarely finding because the world chases from selfish need and not out of love of selfless giving. The world wants sex, it doesn't want to give the responsibility of relationship, protection, honor and sacrifice. And so it is always hungry for the things it cannot find: intimacy, selfless love, true surrender, daya. A man may marry 5 or 6 times and never experience the love he received from his mother. But this is because he never learned to give the love like a mother. He doesn't really love his wife except as selfish object of his needs. So he is dismayed when the wife doesn't really love him back, but only uses him for monetary support and trinkets.

It is a hurt and suffering world. But truth, Christian missionaries have nothing to offer to relieve the deepest levels of suffering and in fact have distorted teachings which only compound them.

Namaste jio, everyone is a paapi on some level. You are only my closest heart. You are only my own soul. Don't worry. Just cling to Maa Devi with devotion and surrender. Sing bhajans with loving heart every morning and evening and try to practice a little yoga. If you cling to Maa, She will lift you up and never let you go, no matter what.

Eastern Mind
04 December 2009, 08:03 AM
For example, recently I had the experience where I saw a crippled old woman in line for darshan with Guru. There was something in the vulnerability of the moment where she tore off a flower from the bouquet she was holding for Guru and gave it to a nearby child. There was something in the look of frailty, her temporariness as a human being had a sweetness, some quality of Daya that overflowed from her actions and for some reason it caused tears to flow from my eyes. Because there was something so fragile, so temporary, and so precious in what I saw in that moment. This crippled old woman became the most beautiful Divine Beloved for briefest instant and inside my heart was dancing because I saw glimpse of what hides behind appearances. I saw a bit of the everlasting and undying eternal, and that is swaroop of love.


HK: Beautiful. Observations like that take us to higher chakras, even temporarily. Thank you for sharing this experience.



In regards to the 'flirt to convert' topic, I was merely pointing it out as how low they can go, but I agree with Sanjaya that it would be rare.

However, in the dross world of 'ordinary' souls, it happens all the time. How else can we explain interfaith marriage, adultery, or conversions for marriage other than by lust? Surely an intelligent being would predict problems down the road when partners are facing such a huge difference as different faiths.

Aum Namasivaya

amra
04 December 2009, 09:32 AM
Thanks for a lovely post Harjas Kaur. I hope I did not offend anyone with my rudeness you are all correct it is not appropriate here.

Harjas Kaur
04 December 2009, 04:59 PM
Perhaps it's best to have the conversation because I'm sure those are thoughts and questions on a lot of people's minds Amra Ji. So often we see posts confusing the nature of sexual restraint with something undesirable or unattainable. Certainly Western culture seems to worship sexuality, at least exploit it for commercial gain.

As for missionaries, everyone knows they are not ordinary and sincere Christians or Muslims living a quiet life, but government representatives who stoop to lowest and most culturally offensive levels. There is already an exposed scandal of Muslim missionaries forcibly converting Sikh and Hindu girls through date rape and taking photos. Some girls who left families and went along with Muslim marriages to Pakistan thinking they will marry their boyfriends found themselves overseas being delivered to brothels. So it is absolutely important to expose these deceptions of missionaries. At the same time it's not meant to heap scorn on any particular religion to do this, but missionaries having aggressive agendas justify evil doings. Sadly, I don't think these incidents are rare, they are a missionaries underhanded tactics. We forget missionaries get paid per convert by some organizations. It is a business like a crime family with ties to intelligence services and professional manipulation. This is why missionaries are a scourge wherever they go and wars and social instability usually follow. They are an ideological infiltration into a country and has nothing to do with "true love" or "crossed-star romances" like a Bollywood drama. Young people should absolutely be aware the dangers that exist from missionaries.

Police protect girls forced to convert to Islam
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23386539-police-protect-girls-forced-to-convert-to-islam.do

Minority Report: Freshers week 'seduction website' angers Sikhs
http://blogs.independent.co.uk/independent/2008/10/sikh-and-muslim.html

TatTvamAsi
05 December 2009, 05:19 PM
Namaste Harjas Kaur ji,

A most beautiful description & explanation of Brahmacarya.

Thank you.

Namaskar.


Amra jio,

There is a difference between an overly righteous attitude toward sex, and an understanding that the muladhara chakra is totally dictating a person's life so they have no freedom but operate under an external influence giving their power away.

The mind is like a rubber band. Pulled to extremes it's going to snap into the opposite extreme. Again, this is being controlled by external factors. It's reactivity, not choice, not operating from freedom. It's tension without ease, heaviness without lightness. The whole point of tantric philosophy is to understand how the mind operates, how the impulses, vasanas, reactions control you and take your freedom away. Any pleasures experienced within the burden of materiality are fleeting and ultimately unsatisfactory. You can hold someone in intimate embrace and still feel miles away all alone and unloved, uncherished. The thing people are seeking isn't found in physical embrace or drugs. What the whole world is yearning after is ecstacy. You won't find it in debachery. You will at some point in your life, have to direct those same sensual energies upwards, and purify those blocks of mind, body and heart. We all have them.

Nothing is more deeply wounded than human sexuality. It is at one point the most vulnerable part of ourselves, and that's why deeply cherishing our humanity is absolutely required for any kind of depth spiritual work. Otherwise we will simply split off what we reject deep in ourselves and throw self-projections of hatred everywhere. This is the root cause of abuses in religious orders, of things like the priest child molestation scandals, etc. And it's not limited to Catholic priests or Christian religion, though perhaps it is worst there, because as you noted, the yogic spiritual science of mind is not present in those teachings. So sexuality becomes subsumed into a form of self-rejections, projections and swinging uncontrollably to opposite extremes.

Bramacharya isn't simply "celibacy." Exactly what would be the point of it? If we live in a world of sensation as sensate beings, WHY would we renounce our basic impulses? So on the one hand, by simple definition, "celibacy" is incorrect. People can hardly be chaste with their husband or wife, let alone practice something like bramacharya.

But I think bramacharya is most misunderstood in context of spiritual sadhana. It's not merely about restraint. It's about redirection of vital energies. If you can't redirect those energies, then I suppose it's like the horse running off and dragging the rider. Even in indulgence you will be unsatisfied. Wanting, needing, lusting after something, not having what one deeply desires, is pain. Having something for only a few minutes and losing the essence of it immediately after attaining it, is pain.

Bramacharya isn't about not having. It's about reaching the stage of being undisturbed by longing. If you are redirecting those energies, you will become a true bhakta. You will experience absolute satisfaction in a far more lasting way because you are having a love affair with your Divine Beloved. I'll tell you the truth. I've never been married. And YOU don't know what you're missing! If you dissipate your vital energies physically, you won't be energetically able to maintain and have ecstatic blissful states. You can raise those energies to a higher frequency and experience them even more intensely with bhakti. For another thing, I am blessed to have a shaktipat Guru, and in my Guru's presence I can get very high for hours. When you experience this kind of thing, sexuality is just not even interesting. It just has nothing to offer which would even come close.

So it is my assertion that the abuse of sex seen in the world, and not just western, comes from experiencing ourselves at the lowest possible energetic level where the satisfaction is experienced below the gut, in a selfish and demanding way and has gotten stuck there and is not able to rise to a level which transcends the limits of the small self. It is certainly not the result of self-denials, but of self-rejections and projected anguish at the "hated" other who never gives enough of what we deeply want and desperately need, who is really a reflection of our deepest wounded nature.

True love is inner reconciliation with the lower AND the higher elements of our nature. It unites in a more complete way the flow of our spiritual energy. A true bramachari/bramacharini is able to redirect and more spontaneously and selflessly give to others energetically and in sincerity. This is the heart and power of something like Ramakrishna missions and charities. But if bramacharins were wasting that vital energy in selfish personal and petty disturbed relationships, I can assure you, the charities would be pointless because people's goals would be self-satisfaction, their thoughts, efforts and desires would be this, and not about selfless giving. The energies would be directed to prettier and more expensive houses, cars, clothing, jewelry, things, etc. Because the root nature is sensual. Only with cultivating the spiritual practice and discipline of redirection can any kind of karma yoga actually work.

And only thorough karma yoga are we liberating bondages of our reactive mind through process of "other-directed" purification. This is the process which will heal our battered human relationships of which sexuality is our deepest part. True love of others comes from the self-surrender and total self-giving of a mother and father for their children and for each other. The true power of the marriage relationship isn't the sex. It's the self-giving. All those conflicts and fights over the years are intended to polish the spiritual diamond of the heart. The sexuality is entirely secondary. After a marriage of 40 or 50 years, when one partner is dying, and the other feels so bonded, so close, so spiritually intimate that the very soul is breaking at the thought of parting, this is real love, this is real relationship. Everything else is glitter, superficial sparkles.

When the time comes for you to die, the physical encounters won't be what matters to you, but the love in the moments which came to you through unexpected sources, a smile, a look, a kind word, a kind deed. The compassionate heart of the world is the treasure and bond you will carry with you as a gift. You will take with you, not memories of physical embraces with equally selfish, uncaring encounters, but instead the essence of true love which you experienced with a child, a dog, a best friend, an injured stranger, even a flower. What gets you high will take you higher. Sexuality is just not the highest. The moments of freedom are the highest. And the freest you can be is something beyond limits which expands your heart. I'm not saying sexuality is nothing or that sexuality isn't powerful, it is. I'm just saying, there's so much more. To limit the definition of satisfaction and bliss to something physical like sexual encounter is really an injustice to ecstatic bliss.

For example, recently I had the experience where I saw a crippled old woman in line for darshan with Guru. There was something in the vulnerability of the moment where she tore off a flower from the bouquet she was holding for Guru and gave it to a nearby child. There was something in the look of frailty, her temporariness as a human being had a sweetness, some quality of Daya that overflowed from her actions and for some reason it caused tears to flow from my eyes. Because there was something so fragile, so temporary, and so precious in what I saw in that moment. This crippled old woman became the most beautiful Divine Beloved for briefest instant and inside my heart was dancing because I saw glimpse of what hides behind appearances. I saw a bit of the everlasting and undying eternal, and that is swaroop of love.

The whole world is chasing after love in so many sensate experiences. Chasing and rarely finding because the world chases from selfish need and not out of love of selfless giving. The world wants sex, it doesn't want to give the responsibility of relationship, protection, honor and sacrifice. And so it is always hungry for the things it cannot find: intimacy, selfless love, true surrender, daya. A man may marry 5 or 6 times and never experience the love he received from his mother. But this is because he never learned to give the love like a mother. He doesn't really love his wife except as selfish object of his needs. So he is dismayed when the wife doesn't really love him back, but only uses him for monetary support and trinkets.

It is a hurt and suffering world. But truth, Christian missionaries have nothing to offer to relieve the deepest levels of suffering and in fact have distorted teachings which only compound them.

Namaste jio, everyone is a paapi on some level. You are only my closest heart. You are only my own soul. Don't worry. Just cling to Maa Devi with devotion and surrender. Sing bhajans with loving heart every morning and evening and try to practice a little yoga. If you cling to Maa, She will lift you up and never let you go, no matter what.

Eastern Mind
05 January 2010, 04:08 PM
Vanakkam all: This is a continuation of my thoughts from another thread, placed here more appropriately.

Even some of us here on HDF do not recognise the danger. It is a cancer or a weed that slowly creeps. In a way the Muslims at least are more open about it. The Christians are subtle. Part of the problem just lies in the Hindus niceness. He lets the Christian in because he is a nice guy. But in so doing it is like an invitation to a flood. The western and Chritian mind set slowly eatrs away. It is violence against Hindus themselves. One conversion will turn brother against brother, destroying the foundation of family itself, which in turn cause feuds and communal disharmony. My earlier example was our (including mine) use of the Gregorian calender's New Year. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, it just demonstrates the subtlety of the whole thing. It is well known history that when an aggressive society meets a passive society, the aggressive society either destroys or assimilates the passive one. So if we want our Dear Sanatana Dharma to disappear over the next 100 years or so, let's keep sending our kids to Christian schools and colleges. Lets not protest to anyone. Lets keep the meat flowing into India. Lets keep the sexuality and slow erosion of morals come alongside the meat. I hope to see you in a future lifetime in that Pew looking confused. Maybe some other light will shine on us together and we can walk out of the place, and find some temple together where we can worship in peace, provided one is still standing.

Aum namasivaya

sanjaya
05 January 2010, 05:31 PM
EM, I've noticed the same thing with Hindu niceness. And we can see this with the issue of friendship evangelism, which has already been discussed to some extent on HDF. When Christians invite Hindus to their churches, the Hindus tend to believe that we're participating in some sort of cultural exchange. The Christians, on the other hand, know that they are engaged in a single-minded effort to culturally assimilate us into Western Christianity. This is precisely how Hindu students come from India to study here in the United States, and are slowly indoctrinated by false friends into Christianity. And because of the inherent Hindu resistance and/or obliviousness to the notion of formal religious conversion, these individuals are left confused about their religious identity. I think that even some Christians aren't aware of the connection between religion and culture, and are thus unaware of the damage that they cause to these people and their families by their evangelistic activities. Some Christians honestly (and falsely) believe that a person can be a cultural Indian and an evangelical Christian at the same time. Yes, I know that there have been Christians living in India for over a thousand years. But this evangelical brand of Christianity is characteristically Western, and is antithetical to Indian culture.

As far as the problem of Christian schools and colleges goes, I think that this is largely our own fault. Yes, the Christians are subtly trying to erode the Hindu roots of India by educating Indians with a Christian mindset. But you've got to hand it to the Christians: they're good at teaching kids English, math, and science. It's our responsibility to provide India with the same high quality of education, and without the Christian religious indoctrination. I believe the same apathetic mentality is responsible for thes erosion of morality among Indian Hindus. My parents always told me that the sort of things which happen in America would never be tolerated in India. But I know a lot of Indians who grew up in India, came to the US for high school or college, and wasted no time in acquiring non-Hindu, live-in girlfriends. Obviously, going to temple and doing pujas to God are the last thing on their minds.

I believe Hindus need to start recognizing the problem of Christian evangelism. I'm not suggesting a militant posture. But when evangelical Christians invite us to church, we could at least bother to ask what their purpose is in doing so. If they play the cultural exchange card, we could likewise ask them to come to our temples, and let their shouts about idolatry and devil worship expose the true agenda. Or better yet, we could just politely decline and tell them that Hindus don't convert to Western religions. Hindus in India have the more difficult task of building an educational system that can rival the Christian schools. And for God's sake, let's ban missionary work in India before it's too late. In some countries Christian missionaries are beheaded. I don't think it would be so bad for us to at least punish evangelism by asking that missionaries return to their home countries.

Eastern Mind
06 January 2010, 07:57 AM
Vanakkam Sanjaya:

I'm happy you have figured it out. One less potential Christian..

from the other thread I backed out of...

I understand this book thing completely. We cherish the vidya. Those who cherish the book alone are blind to the vidya. So those of you who honour the book itself in such a way, if given a book of vile hatred towards Hindus, and full of pornographic images would still honour the book? Sorry, but in my opinion you need to rethink this.

I think when the custom developed (not dropping, not sitting on, placing it to one's eyes, etc.) most likely nearly 100% of books were scripture. Even fiction probably was ethical, like puranas telling stories to teach. Back then book were all sacred. But times have changed, folks. Simply not true today.


quote from Maharadha .... The written word is sarasvati , vak devi herself and is treated with respect.

Pornography? Hatred? Child porn? These are crimes in my country.

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
06 January 2010, 12:28 PM
Vanakkam Sanjaya:

I'm happy you have figured it out. One less potential Christian..


Heh, for what it's worth, I find it virtually impossible that I'll ever become a Christian. At one point in my life I was much more of a potential Christian. I've read the Bible, gone to churches, understood evangelical Christian doctrine, etc. In short, I've played out the evangelical Christian's "come to church with me" request all the way to the end, and found nothing of spiritual value. I guess Christianity isn't so bad for Westerners; in general it keeps them out of trouble. So I don't mind evangelicals converting atheist Westerners in their own countries (except that this creates more missionaries). But for a Hindu to become a Christian is for him to go many steps in the wrong direction. Not to mention the societal strife it causes.


from the other thread I backed out of...

I understand this book thing completely. We cherish the vidya. Those who cherish the book alone are blind to the vidya. So those of you who honour the book itself in such a way, if given a book of vile hatred towards Hindus, and full of pornographic images would still honour the book? Sorry, but in my opinion you need to rethink this.

I think when the custom developed (not dropping, not sitting on, placing it to one's eyes, etc.) most likely nearly 100% of books were scripture. Even fiction probably was ethical, like puranas telling stories to teach. Back then book were all sacred. But times have changed, folks. Simply not true today.


quote from Maharadha .... The written word is sarasvati , vak devi herself and is treated with respect.

Pornography? Hatred? Child porn? These are crimes in my country.

Aum Namasivaya

Ah yes, the dropping the Bible in the river issue. I just read that thread. I don't know that I'd personally go so far as to drop a Bible in a river, but I'd probably not waste my time reading it. As children most of us are taught to respect the written word in all its forms. However, your point about child porn, hatred, etc., elucidates the fallacy of this teaching. My guess is that this is just a simplistic teaching that most of our parents teach us to instill a respect for Sarasvati and for education, and that the true Hindu teaching is a bit more restrictive than all written texts. I certainly believe in respecting Hindu Scriptures. I also believe in respecting academic works and even literature.

As for the Bible...I'm not really so sure what to do. We Hindus are quick to point to all of the moral absurdities in the Bible's Old Testament. But I doubt that anyone here would burn a copy of the Torah in the presence of Jews, almost all of whom have great respect for Hindus and Hinduism. On the other hand, the Bible's New Testament contains many teachings that agree with Hinduism, if you simply subtract out the passages about religious conversion and separatism. So in a sense, we're judging the book by the behavior of its followers. Is this a good policy to take, or should we judge the book by its contents?

On one thing I think we can all agree. Reading the Bible, going to church, and otherwise exploring Christianity is a waste of time, and is probably harmful. Evangelical Christians see "exploration" of Christianity only as a means to the end of conversion. Once the evangelicals perceive that a Hindu is interested, they'll latch on to him like parasites and will not stop until they've converted him.

Eastern Mind
07 January 2010, 05:02 PM
Vannakkam Everyone: Take a look at this fascinating list of languages,mostly long since gone that were at one time thriving, until Christian European missionaries arrived in the Americas. I found it pretty amazing and informative. Most people have no idea about the rich diversity of North America in the past, just as most are unaware of the rich diversity within Sanatana Dharma.

http://www.native-languages.org/

Aum Namasivaya