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brahman
22 September 2009, 08:17 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté


May I ask those on HDF , who has this experience today? If Yes, please advise of your experiences, if no why so?


I am of the camp of 'no'. And why so? I am steeped in ignorance (still) yet I am able to see a faint light at the end of the tunnel; for this I am blessed.

praṇām






To attain liberation, knowledge is essential, but knowledge alone is not adequate for liberation, the pure state of non-duality (adviata).


Real state of non-duality can only be experienced after you have overcome the Maya completely.


So, what is “maya”?

It is a terminology alone, used to describe the elaborate Upanishads (or the numerous deriving philosophies).

“A terminology stands for, an imaginary effect of fabrication of Physical, emotional, mental & spiritual attachment occurred from the fear of existence, at the time of birth itself.

All living entities continue to experience it until the destruction of Maya (the above described attachment).

Maya on entities varies due to the variance in the deposit if pranic energy in all living and non living entities.

Due to this effect of illusion, jiva (all living entities) experience a notion of separation in the Oneness.

The experience of the realization of this reality (above) is Liberation (moksha)”.


So maya is just the illusion that happens, due to the physical, emotional, mental & spiritual attachments of your chita towards prakriti.

Thus, the attachment, or the desires due to various attachments, causes one to refrain from reaching the advaita pada or hinders the unification of Purusha and Prakriti/ Conscious and Super Consciousness/ Shiva and Sakthi/ Jiva and Iswara.


Now, we have knowledge on this subject, haven’t we?


But, is it only a similar to the knowledge we have on food-“Food can help escape hunger”.

With this knowledge on food, you begin your search on the internet for the best food, refer the culinary books available, ask your friends for the best advice, expect your boss to inform you the best eat out, and finally imagine you are still unable to eat some food?

With all the KNOWLEDGE on food, you are left hungry.

What does this imply?
Unless the knowledge turns to practical experiences, knowledge will remain knowledge and never becomes productive, to become a reality.

Maya will still persist, even though you possess the above knowledge.

For a person, the Maya gets destroyed, only when he perceives Brahman with transcendental knowledge. Also understand that Maya is invisible (or this effect of illusion of attachment is not experienced by the senses).

An experience beyond the senses can be experienced with meditation.

Mediation requires pure balance of body or ultimate willpower.
Balancing of body becomes possible through proper movements of the body.

Now, we arrive at this. Advaita is possible only for those who are earnest to work for themselves, possessing great willpower.

I consider this HDF itself a bandhana, and I appreciate people who find time for mediation for 5 days and use the internet for two days and share their experiences.

Remain simple in life, experience more of nature (than spending your time in your room), try being in nature, learn to love, learn to experience the Ultimate Truth, learn through experience everything is SAT and you are a part of it.

Have you ever noticed a difference between your right and left hand, or ever wondered why they are named left and right? You believe that it exists in you. The same way everything exists in one, and you exist in everyone.

That is the real power of Advaita, an experience of purusha and prakriti together in ONE.

Devotion (Bhakti) will discard the effects of bad Karma, purify a person’s mind and bring him closer to the true knowledge. Slowly, the difference between the worshipper and the worshipped starts to fade, and upon true knowledge, liberation occurs.

In summary, make sure you believe in one deity only (let it be the creator, exister or the destructor), for the one purpose of liberation (not for prosperity in life). Meditate upon the deity and recognize the effects of Maya, and the variations in the effects of Maya during the thri gunas, overcome it by sacrificing your indriya sukha and by extending love for Brahman.

You start to know Brahman; you start to know everything that you ought to know.
Be not be proud of your findings during meditation (because findings happen when your thinking is incomplete, you think and try to complete it , but end up in wasting time on unwanted science).

Be confident and enjoy the blissful inner smile of the purusha in devotion.


Here, you opted for the fast food and did order it too!

Now will emerge the thoughts of waiting… for the food …. It is again a bandhana (attachment). So, prepare to meditate and meditate and meditate, till you feel the delivery of your food is going to disturb your meditation. lol


त्रिभिर्गुणमयैर्भावैरेभिः सर्वमिदं जगत् |
मोहितं नाभिजानाति मामेभ्यः परमव्ययम् ||७-१३||

दैवी ह्येषा गुणमयी मम माया दुरत्यया |
मामेव ये प्रपद्यन्ते मायामेतां तरन्ति ते ||७-१४||

Bhagavad Gita 7:13 and 14

Shri. Sankara, the great acharya doesn’t require body movements at multi gym or yoga centre. Imagine, he traveled across the Indian subcontinent twice on foot and is believed to be born as a Saint. So, request not to compare with the great Acharyas.
Shri. Sankara in his Bhajavovindam

भगवद् गीता किञ्चिदधीता
गङ्गा जललव कणिकापीता

सकृदपि येन मुरारि समर्चा
क्रियते तस्य यमेन न चर्चा




Brahman

brahman
23 September 2009, 01:02 AM
On the above post I have tried to explain Maya over the internet,
at the same time I believe that Maya cannot be explained with the senses.


* The presence of Maya is everywhere.

* Maya is so सूक्ष्म( suukSma) minute to be experienced with senses.

When Maya experienced with the senses, it is called ऐश्वर्य- aizvarya or तेजस्- tejas or बल-bala or आश्चर्य-aazcarya, Power or Sakti or Beauty or strength etc....

When Maya experienced with Atman its called JUST MAYA.


Once we realize the effect of Maya(completely) and the freed from the attachments due to maya, these verses in the Holy Bhagavad Gita comes true,

विद्याविनयसम्पन्ने ब्राह्मणे गवि हस्तिनि |
शुनि चैव श्वपाके च पण्डिताः समदर्शिनः ||५-१८|| 5: 18

“ The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal knowledge a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and dog eater (outcaste). (Verify translation)


The Gold has More Maya(glow) than of Iron, the intelligent realize this radiance of gold (प्रभा prabhaa) as maya and consider it as metal alone, he doesn't get attached to the beauty of it.



Brahman

brahman
23 September 2009, 03:00 AM
You must have experienced MAYA on many things;

Your face for instance, some times you look beautiful on mirror and sometimes not.....

In a mirror, try looking in between your eyebrows(of the image) for some seconds(or minutes) to see the real nature of your face.

If don't find any change from the usual scenario, that means you do have poor concentration to overcome Maya/ experince Maya.


Bg 12:12
श्रेयो हि ज्ञानमभ्यासाज्ज्ञानाद्ध्यानं विशिष्यते |
ध्यानात्कर्मफलत्यागस्त्यागाच्छान्तिरनन्तरम् ||१२-१२||

With sacrifice, the seeker attains shanti.

Sacrifice yourself to Lord, the mighty Brahman...

Bhakti yoga is the beginning of all yogas, then it comes to

Rasananda,
Laya,
Dhyana,
Nada
Raja yoga....

So if one goes directly to the others without the base will not be able to complete mission in near future births....


I believe that among all living entities the most visible Maya is of woman.

So,

As the red(apana) goes up the MAH-MAYA tends to fade and fade.


Brahman

kd gupta
23 September 2009, 10:38 AM
Namaste Brahmanji

Agreed. Goswamiji has written , when Narda muni asked to lord Rama, prabhu you did not allow me to marry..Why ?

Lord Rama replied…
Ati darun dukhad MAYA rupi nari, the most troublesome woman .

But Krsn says….
Karmanaiva hi samsiddhim aasthitaa janakaadayah;

Janaka and others attained perfection verily by action only;

So pl. explain, How to accommodate all these odds to achieve for Advaita .

Regards

proudhindu
23 September 2009, 11:21 AM
Pranaam Gupta ji,

Thanks for bringing up the quote from gita.I was actually going to post verse 3:20 and then i saw your post:)

Maya can be overcome if you perform Work for the welfare of society(loka-sangraham).

Bhagavad gita:3-20

karmanaiva hi samsiddhimaasthitaa janakaadayah
loka-sangraham evaapi, sampasyan kartum arhasi


"It is by selfless action (Karma Yoga) alone that king Janaka and others attained supreme(Sam-Siddhim). Therefore, you must perform actions with the right perspective for the welfare of the world/society."

i feel it is pointless to argue on advaita, dvaita perspectives.The time is well spent on getting the basic message right.

yajvan
23 September 2009, 01:45 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~
Namasté


"It is by selfless action (Karma Yoga) alone that king Janaka and others attained supreme(Sam-Siddhim). Therefore, you must perform actions with the right perspective for the welfare of the world/society."

i feel it is pointless to argue on advaita, dvaita perspectives.The time is well spent on getting the basic message right.

IMHO there are 2 self's - self and Self. The small 's' is filled with individual - the large 'S' is filled with the Universal. If one is self-less, then he/she must be Self-full.

Perhaps svāmī Lakṣman-jū's POV¹ makes sense: Unless you ignore your individuality, universality will not rise.

praṇām

references
svāmī Lakṣman-jū's commentary on the Vijñāna bhairava - 20th
kārikā

proudhindu
23 September 2009, 07:37 PM
Self[/B]. The small is filled with individual - the large S is filled with the Universal.

There could be innumerable SELF'S.I prefer to work on something tangible I.E. ME.


If one is self-less, then he/she must be Self-full.Perhaps svāmī Lakṣman-jū's POV¹

LIFE IS SHORT and it is best not wasted in considering innumerable POV's of Innumerable swamijis .

Just my POV :D

yajvan
23 September 2009, 09:11 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~
Namasté


There could be innumerable SELF'S.I prefer to work on something tangible I.E. ME.


I respect your POV - yet find it difficult to think of multiple Selfs.
I am happy you are working on your 'me'. I wish you only success and progress.

praṇām

brahman
24 September 2009, 06:47 AM
Namaste Brahmanji

Agreed. Goswamiji has written , when Narda muni asked to lord Rama, prabhu you did not allow me to marry..Why ?

Lord Rama replied…
Ati darun dukhad MAYA rupi nari, the most troublesome woman .

But Krsn says….
Karmanaiva hi samsiddhim aasthitaa janakaadayah;

Janaka and others attained perfection verily by action only;

So pl. explain, How to accommodate all these odds to achieve for Advaita .

Regards


here is the answer for it from your own post


Thanks Brahmanji…and regards.
Namaste Yajvanji

Person steeped into Ignorance can never see the holy light, you are an enlightened one.

If you ask my view , I shall say ..
I believe on him , he believes on me.
He guides my path , I follow him.
He is made for me , I am alive due to him.


your post again: If you ask my view, I shall say..
I believe on him , he believes on me.
He guides my path , I follow him.
He is made for me , I am alive due to him.


That (him, he) is you


Relish this knowledge, for this is the nectar of Sanadhana Dharma.

Let you decide the dos and don’ts of your karma. But if it is set by a person of less intellect, it can only disturb his Shanti.( Remember, meditation strengthens ones intellect.)

The karma you perform is different from the Karma I perform. It is again different from what others perform.
Simply put, don’t we all look different too?
Yes, certainly. But, all this has happened, for a purpose.

Likewise, the entities in this prapancha are different too. Some are living and some are non-living. But, they too are created for a purpose. When only they function properly, does the world survive!

Orelse, what might happen if the Himalaya flows and the Pacific stays still?

Similar is the case with the body organs too. They too possess dissimilarities in terms of appearance and functions. Though, mostly all organs are living, few are non-living (nails and hair) too.

Orelse, what might happen if your eyelid stays still as a nail?

Imgine your left hand doesn’t obey your commands and start to work by itself.
It functions properly only when it obeys your command; like, when you obey the command of atman you start to function properly .

Now we recollect that everything (living and non living) has been created for a purpose (the existence of the universe) and made of Pancha Thanmatras.

MAYA make the dead alive, make distinctions, (a aham)kara.
Then it becomes infinite characters like you, me, him, mother, father, son, daughter, neighbor, friend, servant society, leaders, systems, beliefs, religion and so on.

But, Atman alone is real. I feel contented to say that the force which keep the living alive is the same force which make the non-living too.

It is the Moola Prakriti, the unmanifested. I love to believe in THAT.

THAT is real, THAT alone is real, and whatever distant from THAT is Maya.

And “THAT is You”



Brahman

brahman
24 September 2009, 06:52 AM
Also find my views on the terminology “meditation- Dhyana” to make the topic clearer.

Though I have mentioned ‘mediation’ in many places, please don’t relate it with the mediation in hath yoga (sitting on asana and mediate).

Dhayana is the repeated thinking of atman. One can execute(try) it while being at workplace, dining, walking, engaging in sex or performing any karma you are entitled with.

This practice gradually leads you to experience atman in whatever you see or imagine, in your ecstasies, desires, sorrows, joys, vein, etc….

You realize that as the nature of the thri gunas vary, so does the nature of karma vary

Now, to control your karma, you overcome the influence of thri gunas

Then you realize your atman (mind) itself is the cause of all your karma.

I am sure; you are bound to continue in Karma until people start seeking your blessings, and are keen to feed you.

bhakti ; limit it not to the deities
bhakti; limit it not to the illumination of the sukhma of the deities,
bhakti; limit it not to the kaarana of the sookshma of the deities…

Atman is afar
Hardly within reach of the immortals
What of you then, earthly – bound?

The real nature of the rope in darkness is ascertained only when all misconceptions about it disappear, ascertaining the reality inorder to overcome the fear(surely with better intellect and close observation attempt after attempt).
Till this moment, it appears a snake to you.


Brahman

bhaktajan
24 September 2009, 10:57 AM
Yajvan pleas clarify your two opposing statements:

[Post #6]--"IMHO there are 2 self's - self and Self. The small 's' is filled with individual - the large 'S' is filled with the Universal. If one is self-less, then he/she must be Self-full."

versus,

[Post #8]--"I respect your POV - yet find it difficult to think of multiple Selfs."

akshara
25 September 2009, 04:22 AM
So, Brahman, if I am to overcome Maya, and if I am to experience Oneness, there is a stage where I need to experience Maya and another stage where I need to experience dvaita….

It should be something like a child hurting himself with fire to know what it is, or else in his lifetime he will keep wondering what that experience would be.

Destruction of Maya- it’s not easy.

Well, it’s easy to imagine it, believe it, theorize it, and visualize the bliss of the state when Maya gets destroyed.

I am more concerned how good it would be if all concerns, family, brother, son, sister, husband, in-laws, pets, pomp, technology, wealth, colors, fame, would end – if its all creations of Maya.

It implies that you evade what is not You, and when You take shelter in You (through meditation), You are in You, possessing what You have, and that is the atman.

You need to take care of that possession alone, by loving it more and more each day.

Then where do you have Maya?, where do you have brother, sister, or time to be worried on today’s currency rate, or the share market, or to attend the latest in personality traits or counseling…………

That possession in You doesn’t require anything more or less, it’s the perfect one.

And is not Maya personal too?

As long as the world exists, does not Maya too exist? Without Maya will the world exist?


Also, if at the time of birth, this imaginary effect which is the so-called Maya exists, does not that imply that advaita is possible only after experiencing the dvaita? Is there a purpose behind that too?

brahman
25 September 2009, 08:18 AM
So, Brahman, if I am to overcome Maya, and if I am to experience Oneness, there is a stage where I need to experience Maya and another stage where I need to experience dvaita….

It should be something like a child hurting himself with fire to know what it is, or else in his lifetime he will keep wondering what that experience would be.

Destruction of Maya- it’s not easy.



Isavasya Upanishad:
sambhutim ca vinasam ca yastadvedobhayam saha |
vinasena mrtyum tirtva sambhutya'mrtamasnute || 14 ||

These important verses read;

“those who knows the importance of the upasana of the vinasa and the sambhuti,
contemplate(upasana) Vinasa (vykta )to conquer death and
contemplate(upasana) Sambhuti (avykta samadhi) to attain amrita tatva”


I believe in the importance of both duality and non-duality.
I believe there is a purpose behind everything.
I believe there is a purpose behind everything except for Atman.





[B][B]It should be something like a child hurting himself with fire to know what it is, or else in his lifetime he will keep wondering what that experience would be.



In the above incident,
The child gets attracted to the beauty (maya) of the fire, but by experiencing the heat, and burns due to heat; he realizes its consequences and withdraws from playing with it.

Now, the child has known fire, and he knows that alone.

But, what with the rest of the unlimited nature?

Can he go behind everything to experience the Maya and realize the consequences?

As in this case of child and fire, the jiva effected by maya, remains unsuccessful, and ineffective , without ever understanding the consequences of the this bondage.

The manifest can always be converted from one form to another, it keeps changing, and that change is infinite.

The Atman remains the same.

Both Atman and prapancha are poorna (absolute),
Even If prapancha is taken away from Atman, Atman remains poorna(Absolute).

ayamatma brhma

Atman is Brahman

Brahman

yajvan
25 September 2009, 12:15 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté


Yajvan pleas clarify your two opposing statements:

[Post #6]--"IMHO there are 2 self's - self and Self. The small 's' is filled with individual - the large 'S' is filled with the Universal. If one is self-less, then he/she must be Self-full."

versus,

[Post #8]--"I respect your POV - yet find it difficult to think of multiple Selfs."
There may be multiple individuals i.e. self with a small 's' - this is what people view when ajñāna (ignorance)predominates. One see's diversity every where, in every thing. There are mutiple individuals, animals, continents, planets, stars, plants, houses, yards, cars, trucks, bee-s, birds, mountains- diversity.

Yet there is only One, Brahman, this is Self, capital S in today's parlance. I cannot see, experience, believe or imagine munltiple Self-s, because by defintion there is only one Brahman.

This is my point I was offering…. it is very easy these days to mix the thinking of self with Self. I think there is better ways of defining the Universal from the individual - yet at the end of the day the individual is just the extention of the Universal and the division is in one's eye - this is removed by the ointment of knowledge.


praṇām

brahman
01 October 2009, 04:49 AM
one knows both vidya and avidya, transcends death through avidya and reaches immortality through vidya.


Knower (practitioner) of both vidya and avidya transcends death through avidya and reaches immortality through vidya.

Isavasya Upanishad.
sutra: 11

vidyam cavidyam ca yastadvedobhayam saha |
avidyaya mrtyum tirtva vidyaya'mrtamasnute 11


VIDYA विद्या:

To define ‘Vidya’ its “Knowledge in complete” (in fullness, in perfection)

It is practical and theoretical knowledge of a particular science, with the ability to perform it and to obtain the expected result.

Or

It is practical and theoretical knowledge of a particular science, that has already been performed and the expected result obtained.




Let me exemplify Vidya further.

Indrajaalavidya is the practical and theoretical knowledge of magic, with the ability to perform it and with the purpose of creating surprise and hope in audience.

zilpa vidya is the theoretical and practical knowledge of craft, with the ability to produce or design craft.

AVIDYA अविद्य
is “knowledge that’s incomplete” (not in fullness, imperfect)


the unafraid and confident may experiment with any branch of science to attain results. But, they are not totally wrapped in sciences.

Or

It is with absolute skill and belief on the result that the unafraid and confident attempt on sciences.




For eg:

You may notice someone, not necessarily an expert in ship building, making a small beautiful wooden boat.

Or you may come across someone singing nicely without ever being introduced to lessons in singing.

Consequently, such focused attempts lead to results.

Let me quote the Upanishads again:

“one knows both vidya and avidya,
transcends death through avidya
and reaches immortality through vidya.”


Here vidya has been referred to as ‘brahma vidya’ ब्रह्म विद्या

Attainment of the ultimate bliss (akshara Brahman)
by practicing the para with apara (related sciences)


In that case, avidya stands for

A fearless confident attempt on the Ultimate Bliss without spending much time on the related sciences.

Then you read its “ the fearless and confident attempt (meditation) on the Ultimate with a belief (bhakti ) on the result (to behold Bhagavan/Lord), ultimately leading one to Bliss.”

So, how can the importance of avidya be explained?

Avidya augments one’s belief, corroborates him to development, than which is possible to someone who attempts for bliss without any involvement of targets.


Avidya is blind love for Paramatman, you start to love the Paramatman, and you start to love the living and the non living alike

You start to welcome pain and gain in the same way

You start to accept heat and cold the same

You start to treat SAT and ASAT equally

You start to experience nirvikara, the “steadinesses of mind”, the atman, the light, the bliss…



Originally Posted by brahman
“Advaita is living every moment in joy, a quality of joyful evenness. One should not even enter into thoughts of liberation.”



Posted by Yajvan:
May I ask those on HDF , who has this experience today? If Yes, please advise of your experiences, if no why so?

The reply has been posted as the reply to all those who say “No”.

You can easily reminisce and comment on a movie seen earlier. Whatever be your analysis of the movie, you can explain the entire scenario by spending your time, but you can never compel someone to watch it.
Leave it to his discretion.

Disclaimer:
I didn’t attempt to see my reply as an argument (वाद) between various philosophies preached around the globe. It was my consummate view on the lights of Sanadhana Dharma, equally abiding to its principles.


Aum Tat Sat

bhaktajan
01 October 2009, 09:28 PM
Yajvan pleas clarify your two opposing statements:

[Post #6]--"IMHO there are 2 self's - self and Self. The small 's' is filled with individual - the large 'S' is filled with the Universal. If one is self-less, then he/she must be Self-full."

versus,

[Post #8]--"I respect your POV - yet find it difficult to think of multiple Selfs."

Yajvan,

You explained the first part ---which I indeed already understood.

but, the 2nd statement does not reconcile with Paramatma Realisation.

the second statement could be construded to say "there is no value to Paramatma Realisation" ---the presence of the divine life-force in the Hearts of Others.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Brahman,
I was entralled by your application of mantra 11's lesson.

It would appear from your analysis that works should be applied to the betterment of others even if it [or especially if it does(?)] entail personal sacrifice ~"tapasya for the sake of others" ---???

brahman
02 October 2009, 02:10 AM
Brahman,
I was entralled by your application of mantra 11's lesson.

It would appear from your analysis that works should be applied to the betterment of others even if it [or especially if it does(?)] entail personal sacrifice ~"tapasya for the sake of others" ---???

Excellent observation, I appreciate it bhakijan.

But as I said earlier, observations hardly help.

The depth of practical application matters. That is Tapasya.

You can’t eat for someone else; take tapsya in the same sense.






.