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satay
27 March 2006, 09:52 AM
This piece of land known as Bharata is sacred and 'mahan'. These facts alone that GauriShankar resides with us on Kailash for jagat kalyan and krishn blessed us with his birth on this land make it 'mahan'. :)

satay

Gill Harley
31 March 2006, 09:52 AM
Oh dear - I don't want to start a row when I've only been on this discussion board for five minutes, but I do find this 'my country is better/more holier/greater than yours' stuff a little off-putting. The Jews have been telling us for thousands of years that they are the Chosen Few, the Americans call their country "God's Own Country" and so it goes on. But it's not helpful to creating peace in the world, or peace anywhere else for that matter.

Of course Bharatavarsha, which stretched from the Antarctic to current day Turkey, was a great place too, full of holy people whose writings most of the major world religions eventually sprung from, imho.

But one of the attributes of God is that he is omnipresent - He manifests His Glory in every country of His world - the world that He created - and there are no special cases or Chosen Fews.

Do you know the Bob Dylan song, With God On Our Side?

Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.

Just thought I'd mention it.....:)

satay
31 March 2006, 10:22 AM
Oh dear - I don't want to start a row when I've only been on this discussion board for five minutes, but I do find this 'my country is better/more holier/greater than yours' stuff a little off-putting. The Jews have been telling us for thousands of years that they are the Chosen Few, the Americans call their country "God's Own Country" and so it goes on. But it's not helpful to creating peace in the world, or peace anywhere else for that matter.



I know what you are saying. Still you can not blame me for having some pride in the country that I was born in.



But one of the attributes of God is that he is omnipresent - He manifests His Glory in every country of His world - the world that He created - and there are no special cases or Chosen Fews.


You are right, I wasn't saying that hindus are chosen few, to the contrary, I think "everyone" born on this planet is a hindu by default!



Do you know the Bob Dylan song, With God On Our Side?
Just thought I'd mention it.....:)

no, I didn't but thanks for sharing it.:)

satay

Gill Harley
02 April 2006, 05:29 AM
Thanks for that very nice reply. You're obviously a much more sattvic person that me.

I thought you might be interested in this. A Vedic scholar who lives in Chennai told me that one of the Puranas (I think!) says that, at one time an ishthmus connected the modern continent of Antarctica with the Mount Gantothri in the Himalayas and so Bharatha-varsa was connected with Antarctica. He says that Bharatha-varsa stretched as far north as Kazaksthan and also included all the islands in between in the Indian Ocean, including Sri Lanka. He also said it stretched as far west as to include the whole of Iran and as far east as the Indonesian islands.

Anyway, I have put his coordinates on to a map:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a91/gillharley/bvmap.jpg

As you can see, it does a bit of wiggle at Australia, which leads me to believe that perhaps Australia, or the western part of Australia was included. There is certainly a significant proportion of Australoid genes amongst the southern Indians.

Also, this map shows the submerged isthmus:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a91/gillharley/indianridge.gif

Hope this is of interest.

Namo Narayana
02 April 2006, 01:50 PM
Gill, your knowledge of bharatvarsha is correct as far as i know. In ancient tamil scriptures there is literature written about kumari aaru ( river) . there was a river called Kumari than flowed south of kanya kumari. there was also theory that india was connected to africa and australasian islands. The Madurai currently north of the cape kumari is not the original madurai burnt down by Kannagi in Silapathigaram. This Madurai was situated south of the existing cape kumari. It was the crade of development of Tamil Language. ancient tamil literature say tamil was developed in three stages Mudhal Sangham ( First Council ) , Idai Sangham (Middle or second council) Kadai sangham ( Last council ). What is not clear to me is why there need different levels of councils ? My theory is sea erosion could have caused the destruction of Madurai and evertime they founded a new city madurai and marked it by different phases.

I have read elsewhere that evolution of earths geography made India drift from africa to ram into Asia Minor long before the human beings.

The andaman nicobar islands that east of india are nothing but tips of mountains submerged ( possibly by tsunami ? )

Certain western researchers have a view that Hinduism spread all over globe once.

Once Ramana Maharishi who lived in Thiruvannamalai and worshipped Lord Shiva there, said there should be a corresponding one on the other side of the world exactly opposite to thiruannamalai. It turns out to be a holy site of Mayans. there is a website that talks about this inconclusively though.


southern india also extended into bay of bengal. there used to be a city called poompuhar which was destroyed by a tsunami. the tsunami is documented in silapathigaram one of the five big literature in tamil. poompuhar was also called Kaveripoom pattinam. it was at the mouth of river cauvery where it flows into bay of bengal.

what we have now is a poompuhar that is a remnant of this huge city.

if you travel Mahabalipuram 50 kilometres south of chennai downtown, there is only remaining pagoda. the other six pagodas are submerged in the ocean. the fishermen have witnessed these. BBC has a report on it. conducted a joint sea search and documented it. Unlike USA, the Indian or Tamil Nadu government doesnt have the vision to make this place an underwater museum of architecture. there exists in sculpted form of various mahabaratha scenes.

Hinduism is egalitarian. Like christianity or others we dont proclaim we are the sons of god or the chosen ones. Hinduism is nothing but a guide to live yuor life in the planet.

it is important from an indian perspective to feel proud about being a Hindu and Indian because hindus are being belittled everywhere around the world and we are seriously in need of some morale booster. this should not be taken as if we are alienating western hindus.

Majority of indians dont realise that how india is great while living in India. you realise it only when you move out of it and see. I realised how great is india only when I moved to states.

Ram
02 April 2006, 01:54 PM
I know what you are saying. Still you can not blame me for having some pride in the country that I was born in.


Bharat is unqiue for her spiritual heritage. No other nation has produced thousands of sages and mystics like her.

Namo Narayana
02 April 2006, 02:39 PM
Bharat is unqiue for her spiritual heritage. No other nation has produced thousands of sages and mystics like her.

we do keep producing. I was amazed that Hawaii Hindu Mutt was originated by a caucasian hindu. He is also succeeded by another satguru who happens to be a western hindu.

sarabhanga
02 April 2006, 08:08 PM
Namaste Gill,

What Sanskrit term is used in the Puranas for “Antarctica” ?

Satellite scans of the ocean floor clearly reveal the imprint of the Indian sub-continent’s northward travel. The V-shaped notch that lies to the north of modern Antarctica indicates the starting position for India, when she broke away from the ancient super-continent that once included India, Antarctica, and Australia, and also Africa and South America (i.e. Gondwana).

When India was directly connected with Antarctica, the Himalaya did not yet exist ~ since the entire range was created when India ran into the northern continent of Asia. India is still moving northwards, and that is what keeps pushing up the Himalaya (and causing earthquakes) as the two continents grind together.

In human history, Bharatavarsha has probably extended as far north as the Aral and Caspian Seas and including modern Iran, and stretching as far as Indonesia and possibly even Australia (which were all virtually connected by land-bridges during the last ice-age). And Lanka was only cut off from India in the last few thousand years ~ indeed, the Setubandha from Rameshvaram still remains almost useable today, given a very low tide and favourable winds.

Namo Narayana
02 April 2006, 09:38 PM
Sarabanga, I dont see how one can interpret that satellite pictures showing that India has moved up north. But it is less important.

All these could have happened before human set foot.

But I forgot to mention about the eruption of Toba valcano which deposited six metres of ash on Indian continent allegedly. toba erupted 73000 yrs ago and the primitive men living in nicobar islands are there for last 70000 years. There are many riddles in the story that are not answered.

sarabhanga
02 April 2006, 10:27 PM
During the late Cretaceous period, the Indian Plate was moving north at about 18 or 19 cm per year. And when the collision of India with Asia happened (about 55 million years ago) the speed slowed to only 4 or 5 cm per year.

India has travelled about 9,000 km in the last 180 million years, and India is still moving north at a readily measurable rate.

And the tectonic movements of the various continental plates have NOT been deduced from the satellite pictures that Gill and I have presented here ~ they only serve to reinforce the validity of the theory.

The images do show exactly the imprint in the earth’s crust that might be expected to remain for some time after the weight of a whole continent has passed over it. The track is deepest and most even in the middle part, with edges that are submarine ridges which formed as the northward path was ploughed.

And you CAN see exactly where the Indian fragment of ancient Gondwana is predicted to have started its independent journey away from what is now called Antarctica.

Gill Harley
03 April 2006, 09:03 AM
I agree that Indians do need to raise their morale about their country, mainly because they’ve been under various foreign occupations for more than 1,200years and the last lot, the British, put the final nail in the coffin by telling the Indians that their Vedic scripture wasn’t composed by them, but by some mythical Europeans who invaded around 1,200 BC, despite there being no evidence for such an invasion.

However, I’m not sure ‘being proud’ of your country is a very good idea for those on the path of sanathana dharma, not least because we believe in reincarnation, so how can we claim any country as our own? You are born an Indian in this lifetime – but in the last, you could have been from another country, and the one before that, another. I'm born in the UK this lifetime, but I could (and probably was!) and Indian in the last, so which country should I be proud of?

Secondly, pride is one of the tools that the ego uses to keep us trapped and apart from God consciousness. So it is better, imho, if we are going to have pride in anything, to just have pride in God, then at least any base egotistical feelings will be transformed into something better.

I believe that we should try to take a more universal attitude and see God everywhere, not just in one country. True, India has had its fair share of avatars, but there are many other countries that have had incredible spiritual teachers in the past, many of whom were persecuted, tortured and killed for trying to educate people into spiritual practices.

Singhi Kaya
03 April 2006, 04:24 PM
I agree that Indians do need to raise their morale about their country, mainly because they’ve been under various foreign occupations for more than 1,200years and the last lot, the British, put the final nail in the coffin by telling the Indians that their Vedic scripture wasn’t composed by them, but by some mythical Europeans who invaded around 1,200 BC, despite there being no evidence for such an invasion.

However, I’m not sure ‘being proud’ of your country is a very good idea for those on the path of sanathana dharma, not least because we believe in reincarnation, so how can we claim any country as our own? You are born an Indian in this lifetime – but in the last, you could have been from another country, and the one before that, another. I'm born in the UK this lifetime, but I could (and probably was!) and Indian in the last, so which country should I be proud of?

Secondly, pride is one of the tools that the ego uses to keep us trapped and apart from God consciousness. So it is better, imho, if we are going to have pride in anything, to just have pride in God, then at least any base egotistical feelings will be transformed into something better.

I believe that we should try to take a more universal attitude and see God everywhere, not just in one country. True, India has had its fair share of avatars, but there are many other countries that have had incredible spiritual teachers in the past, many of whom were persecuted, tortured and killed for trying to educate people into spiritual practices.
Any effort to really bring forth a change in India which is pure and long lasting (and anywhere for that matter) has to based on Dharma. I'd agree concepts like pride or even nationalism will lead us down the wrong road. To awaken the true spirit of Sanatan Dharma at all levels and all strata's of the society is the key. Too long has it been confined to the rarefied releams of the himalayan ascetic. Had all hindu's had a common prayer based on vedas which people recieted together in temples, just like mohamaddans do, our society would have never suffered. Had the modern hindutva movement based their sangha on eternal spirituality of this nation and not on emotional nationalism, their demise wouldn't have been so easy. So way forward is dharma, common for all at the basic level. Let all hindu's have the right and motivation to sing some common hynms everyday together (beyond which we all have our own paths), and the change will be instantenious, the power generated will be awesome - the asuras will have no where to hide!!!

Hari Om

Namo Narayana
03 April 2006, 10:19 PM
I agree that Indians do need to raise their morale about their country, mainly because they’ve been under various foreign occupations for more than 1,200years and the last lot, the British, put the final nail in the coffin by telling the Indians that their Vedic scripture wasn’t composed by them, but by some mythical Europeans who invaded around 1,200 BC, despite there being no evidence for such an invasion.

However, I’m not sure ‘being proud’ of your country is a very good idea for those on the path of sanathana dharma, not least because we believe in reincarnation, so how can we claim any country as our own? You are born an Indian in this lifetime – but in the last, you could have been from another country, and the one before that, another. I'm born in the UK this lifetime, but I could (and probably was!) and Indian in the last, so which country should I be proud of?

Secondly, pride is one of the tools that the ego uses to keep us trapped and apart from God consciousness. So it is better, imho, if we are going to have pride in anything, to just have pride in God, then at least any base egotistical feelings will be transformed into something better.

I believe that we should try to take a more universal attitude and see God everywhere, not just in one country. True, India has had its fair share of avatars, but there are many other countries that have had incredible spiritual teachers in the past, many of whom were persecuted, tortured and killed for trying to educate people into spiritual practices.

Gill, I understand what you mean. I believe in the word never be proud of it. This is pride we are talking about is purely from an Indian in India perspective. An analogy would be like a man who becomes weaker when the glucose content in his blood is reduced. It is nothing wrong in injecting a few doses of glucose to energise him. But sustaining which can make him diabetic.

A Hindu in india is in a very pathetic state of mind. His morale has been consstantly attacked and bombarded by christian missionaries, so called secular leaders, muslims and the not to mention the fake media. you would only feel that if you lived and observed it in India. Indians in India may not know what true India is. When I came out of the country I began to realise how better India is compared to many countries in the World. Ofcourse I wouldn't deny its problems.

The Bharatiya is not to differentiate hindus in india and other hindus in other parts of the world. this is just an injection for the downtrodden mind. It is not radicalisation of the hindu society.

For your question regarding being born in UK and India in different births, indeed is a great question . In my experience of hearing stories from people who read nadi josiam from Vaideeswaran temple which tells about all your births, I have seen that Indians were born in India in previous birth too. I could be wrong. But again to determine what you should be proud of will remain depending on your logical thinking and faith alone.

if you embrace a philosophy born out of India then you belong to there. Inspite of Hindus being so tolerant for centuries we are still being bombarded left , right and centre inside the country as well as outside. I think if we felt proud of our country it is only a knee jerk reaction to elements trying to disintegrate our resolve.

Again you should see it from an Indian in India's perspective.

Gill Harley
04 April 2006, 03:19 AM
A Hindu in india is in a very pathetic state of mind. His morale has been consstantly attacked and bombarded by christian missionaries, so called secular leaders, muslims and the not to mention the fake media. you would only feel that if you lived and observed it in India.

Again you should see it from an Indian in India's perspective.

I have spent a lot of time in India, Namo Naryana, and so I speak from practical experience. I have an Indian guru and spend time in his ashram. I've also travelled around all of southern India.

What I found so heartbreaking was that I was (often) more Hindu than the Indians that I met. One day, when I was lying at the feet of the enormous black granite Vishnu that lies in the Shore Temple at Mahibalipuram, and crying and praying with devotion, some Indian tourists came along and started clowning around and taking photographs. Then they picked up their small son and placed him on the belly of Vishnu, and again starting laughing and taking pictures. I was shocked at such at attitude and I'm afraid, I told them so in no uncertain terms.

I have also spent the last few years putting the "no Aryan invasion" argument to many Western historians and archaeologists. This is important because the Aryan invasion is the basis upon which the Vedas, which is the spiritual heart of the Indian people, has been taken away from them. It also means that it's been dated wrongly - and this is important because it completely screws up religious history.

So I do understand what you're talking about. But I still believe a universal approach is best. People are not going to want to become Hindus, because they don't understand what it means. But they do want God. And God is for all nations.

Gill Harley
04 April 2006, 03:51 AM
Namaste Gill,

What Sanskrit term is used in the Puranas for “Antarctica” ?



I'm sorry Sarabhanga. I don't know the Sankskrit term for Antarctica. I can tell you that it was named by relatively recent explorers and it means "opposite to the Arctic", but that doesn't really help much, does it?

satay
04 April 2006, 09:30 AM
But I still believe a universal approach is best. People are not going to want to become Hindus, because they don't understand what it means. But they do want God. And God is for all nations.

namaste gill,

thank you for the wonderful posts. I just wanted to say that I love what you are saying here, specifically, the part that I quoted.

Clearly there are two issues here: One is that of being an "Indian" and the other of being a "Hindu". For most Indian Hindus the line that separates the two is drawn in the sand. Unfortunately for me, this line gets blurred very often and I have to pull back and try to have a bird's eye view instead of being at the ground level. :)

You have observed a phenomenon in India that is pathetic. It clearly points to the state in which Indians are in.

I agree with Namo Narayana that it is not until you get out of India that you realize what a great country it is but for me it was not until recently that I realized how great Sanatana Dharma is. For me what makes India great is that it produced so many great geniuses in the field of spirituality.

While India is a piece of land, Sanatana Dharma is for the universe.

If I can make that distinction and draw the line what you are saying makes perfect sense.

satay

Namo Narayana
04 April 2006, 10:45 AM
I have spent a lot of time in India, Namo Naryana, and so I speak from practical experience. I have an Indian guru and spend time in his ashram. I've also travelled around all of southern India.

What I found so heartbreaking was that I was (often) more Hindu than the Indians that I met. One day, when I was lying at the feet of the enormous black granite Vishnu that lies in the Shore Temple at Mahibalipuram, and crying and praying with devotion, some Indian tourists came along and started clowning around and taking photographs. Then they picked up their small son and placed him on the belly of Vishnu, and again starting laughing and taking pictures. I was shocked at such at attitude and I'm afraid, I told them so in no uncertain terms.

I have also spent the last few years putting the "no Aryan invasion" argument to many Western historians and archaeologists. This is important because the Aryan invasion is the basis upon which the Vedas, which is the spiritual heart of the Indian people, has been taken away from them. It also means that it's been dated wrongly - and this is important because it completely screws up religious history.

So I do understand what you're talking about. But I still believe a universal approach is best. People are not going to want to become Hindus, because they don't understand what it means. But they do want God. And God is for all nations.

Gill, I apologize for the rude behaviour of the people. You and fellow western travellers are purely seen as a tourist alone. Your prayer may be just viewed as a curious tourists taking a closer look at the architecture ( I could be wrong ). See this itself is a good example why people lost their respect for Dharma iconography. Respect for a fellow human being worshipping a hindu deity. This is what need to be mended. That is my whole point. But again people like you who did a lot of research before accepting Hinduism. Most westerners come to dharma that way and are well informed about the religion. Where as an average Hindu in India is a hindu because he was born in a hindu family. He grows up amidst atheists , i should say pseudo atheists and pseudo seculars who constantly ram his thinking with material that degrades hinduism. so he doesnt take time to really do the thinking that his belief is being mutilated. once he gets out of the system and comes to a world like west where he is no more bombarded and meets like minded people in forum , he evolves and recuperates. I would say after the advent of BJP lot of people including my friends in India have realised they are prominent. But Hindutva or Bharatiya includes people who are not just hindus but anyone who is patriotic. I think this can be only understood if one grew in the system.

This pride feeling is nothing but to re-ignite the spirit.

Lastly Mahabalipuram is more like a tourist destination now. Though it is called shore temple. most go there for picnic. If you want to pray I suggest you visit Parthasarathy temple of Kapaleeswara temple incase you are around in chennai. There may be also one billion temples in chennai alone every stone throw away distance. I am sure people there would be warm and make you feel welcomed.

Gill Harley
05 April 2006, 03:23 AM
Thank you so much, Namo Narayana, for your helpful reply.

I shall certainly take your advice about temples in future! :)

By the way, can somebody tell me why I have an Indian flag under my name? I don't object...far from it! But I am just wondering....

Also, while we're on the subject, I'm also wondering why I have a reputation of 12 of what that means......

Sorry to have so many questions.

Eternal Law
05 April 2006, 06:11 AM
By the way, can somebody tell me why I have an Indian flag under my name? I don't object...far from it! But I am just wondering....

Also, while we're on the subject, I'm also wondering why I have a reputation of 12 of what that means......



Indian Flag - Because you selected India as your country in profile.:)
Reputaion of 12 - somebody here is impressed with your post and increased your repo. To know that person , go to User CP. :D

Gill Harley
05 April 2006, 07:50 AM
Thank you, that all makes perfect sense now, and I've fixed the flag bit.:)

Namo Narayana
05 April 2006, 08:56 AM
Gill, are you someone who visit India often ? did you visit the huge temple in london ? I have heard about it that it is very pretty.

Gill Harley
05 April 2006, 10:24 AM
I visited India up until 1999. After that, my guru (Sai Baba) came to me in a dream and told me to stay in the UK. So I haven't been back since. He communicates with me now by dream and telepathically and in other sorts of astral ways. So I no longer have to go to India to receive his teachings.

Which temple in the UK do you mean?

Namo Narayana
05 April 2006, 11:10 AM
do you know reason why he wanted u to stay in UK. are you talking about puttaparthi sai baba ?

very interesting to know about your confidence of expression about your dreams. i studied in erode in tamil nadu. there is a temple for Bhavani amman and lord shiva. it is called kooduthurai where kauveri and bavani mingles and hence the name. there , it is written on the wall that one of the british general stationed there during colonial times was given darshan by Bhavani Amman herself and the general worshipped the goddess thru a small hole in the wall . he did not come into the temple for some reason. Very intrigued indeed. there are other stories like this indeed. But this is one that stayed in my mind.

Gill Harley
05 April 2006, 11:13 AM
yes, Puttaparthi Sai. No, I don't know the reason why he told me to stay in UK, but it has strengthened my inner relationship with him and showed me that he is not just the physical body in Puttaparthi.

Namo Narayana
05 April 2006, 11:25 AM
i think only you can interpret your dreams. last time i went to india. i had lord ganesha in my dream. i never got a hindu god in my dream before. i was sleeping with my face towards the ganesha temple few blocks away from my home and i used to visit the temple as often as i could.

so i just thought he wanted me to come and pray him. I did so.

Devibhakta
13 April 2006, 03:56 PM
Namaste, very late in this thread, I just wanted to mention I enjoyed the description of Hinduism as the human default setting!:)

Gill Harley
16 April 2006, 09:13 AM
A good friend of mine has just sent me this about the Harappan civilisation in the Indus Valley (circa 3,000 BC):

Dilmun (sometimes transliterated Telmun) is one of archaeological sites on the islands of Bahrain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahrain) in the Persian Gulf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf). Because of its location along the sea trade routes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_route) linking Mesopotamia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia) with the Indus Valley Civilization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization), Dilmun developed in the Bronze Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age), from ca. 3000 BC, into one of the greatest entrepôts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrep%C3%B4t) of trade of the ancient world.

There is both literary and archaeological evidence for the trade between Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley (probably correctly identified with the land called Meluhha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meluhha) in Akkadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_language)). Impressions of clay seals from the Indus Valley city of Harappa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harappa) were evidently used to seal bundles of merchandise, as clay seal impressions with cord or sack marks on the reverse side testify. A number of these Indus Valley seals have turned up at Ur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur) and other Mesopotamian sites. "Persian Gulf" types of circular stamped rather than rolled seals, known from Dilmun, that appear at Lothal in Gujarat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarat), India, and Failaka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failaka), as well as in Mesopotamia, are convincing corroboration of the long-distance sea trade. What the commerce consisted of is less sure: timber and precious woods, ivory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory), lapis lazuli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapis_lazuli), gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold), and luxury goods such as carnelian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnelian) and glazed stone beads, pearls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl) from the Persian Gulf, shell and bone inlays, were among the goods sent to Mesopotamia in exchange for silver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver), tin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin), woolen textiles, olive oil and grains. Copper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper) ingots, certainly, bitumen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitumen), which occurred naturally in Mesopotamia, may have been exchanged for cotton textiles and domestic fowl, major products of the Indus region that are not native to Mesopotamia— all these have been instanced.

Mesopotamian trade documents, lists of goods, and official inscriptions mentioning Meluhha supplement Harappan seals and archaeological finds. Literary references to Meluhhan trade date from the Akkadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkad), the Third Dynasty of Ur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Dynasty_of_Ur), and Isin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isin) - Larsa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larsa) Periods (ca. 2350 - 1800 BC), but the trade probably started in the Early Dynastic Period (ca. 2600 BC). Some Meluhhan vessels may have sailed directly to Mesopotamian ports, but by the Isin - Larsa Period, Dilmun monopolized the trade. By the subsequent Old Babylonian period, trade between the two cultures evidently had ceased entirely.[end of extract from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilmun)

So it looks as though the ancient Babylonians referred to the Indus Valley as "Meluhha". Does anyone know where that name might have come from?

It may seem a moot point but if we discover that Meluhha is derived from Sanskrit then that is a very indication that there was a Sanskrit-speaking population in the Indus Valley that traded with Ur circa 3000 BC. This will then be proof that never was an Aryan invasion, well, certainly not one in 1200 BC anyway, and that the Vedas is much much older than that.

sarabhanga
01 May 2006, 02:23 AM
Namaste Gill,

In Sumerian, me-luh-ha indicates “the people whose rule is to wash” ~ and Meluhha certainly refers to the ancient Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization. :)

Gill Harley
05 May 2006, 04:04 PM
Once again, Sri Sarabhanga, I am in your debt for this most invaluable information! :)