Īśvara's participation...

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Īśvara ( ruler, Lord, the Divine with form - saguṇa-brahman), is He actively participating in this world? this Universe? The Upaniṣad-s inform us He enters into this creation.

Yet Kṛṣṇa informs us in the Bhāgavad-gītā (4.14 ) ' actions do not involve me, nor have I any longing for the fruit of action '
One can say - how could He not? He is the very essence of consciousness , His cit-śakti ( power/energy of consciousness)
make all of us animated.

Yet the question may be posed with an example… let's say we add ~energy ~ ( consciousness) to a car ( the world, society,
the individual, etc). One can say this energy is active - it propels the car forward, it is involved with the car. Yet the energy/gas does not care ( indifference) which direction the car is going. Like that, is this the condition of Īśvara - the essence of all things, yet is indifferent to the direction the individual, society, universe is going?

By the laws of nature of expansion, the society grows, the universe expands, the individual grows physically and spiritually - i.e.
'auto pilot' is on.

Does the Lord intervene in this world, in affairs? What is your thinking on this matter?

praṇām

[amra]

Baba Yajvan Ji

This thing you have brought up, has been on my mind for a while. If God will first forgive my arrogance on discussing such ideas, I will add something.

In the analogy of the car the energy/gas has to go through various transmutations before it can propel the car. First The energy/gas/cause has 'helpers' such as spark plugs, the engine and the wheels. The cause must go through various limitating changes. I.e. pure energy must become specified/limited to affect a certain effect. If the car did not contain these 'intermediary parts' then the energy from the gas could not have any effect in our reality. If we need help in this world we can improve things with the help of the car parts i.e. better engine, new wheels etc. But without the gas none of these parts are worth anything, yet the gas itself cannot help us improve the running of the car but the maintenance of the parts means our car will run smoothly and not cause us pain. When man neglects the maintenance of his car, the gas still causes the car to go but it will not run efficently.

The car equates with the universe. The parts with the gods, His viceregents. The King of Kings does not concern himself with some poor outpost in the middle of nowhere lacking in trade and finery, No, he appoints viceregents and satraps to deal with such places, the High King only deals with them who are close to him, those far from him are under command of certain rulers of certain parts of the universe.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Yajvan ji and all

but then Krishna also says
isvarah sarva-bhutanam
hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati
bhramayan sarva-bhutani
yantrarudhani mayaya

The Lord abides in the heart of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings to act (or work out their Karma) by His power of Maya as if they are (puppets of Karma) mounted on a machine. (18.61)

Jai Shree Krishna

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté amra and Ganeshprasad,

These are very compelling posts you were kind enough to offer. I will wait till others give their insights as I have several questions I think are germane to both of your posts. If offered now it just may derail our forward progress. Let us see what others may wish to contribute, then I will ask.


praṇām

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Amra writes,

The car equates with the universe. The parts with the gods, His viceregents. The King of Kings does not concern himself with some poor outpost in the middle of nowhere lacking in trade and finery, No, he appoints viceregents and satraps to deal with such places, the High King only deals with them who are close to him, those far from him are under command of certain rulers of certain parts of the universe.

Yes, I see how this can be, His agents. Yet amra, do you think then that the vice-agents themselves intervene in the works and actions of people? That is they change the course of action ? Action A is altered due to the choice and re-direction of the vice-agent?

Ganeshprasad writes,

The Lord abides in the heart of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings to act (or work out their Karma) by His power of Maya as if they are (puppets of Karma) mounted on a machine. (18.61)

Yes, He abides in us all - to this I agree fully. Yet does He intervene? Do he choose another action for a person other then the one that would have occurred via the natural flow of karma ?
It is said, not even a blade of grass moves without His knowing… of this I have no doubt. Yet if the blade of grass was to bend from North to South, would Īśvara at times choose it to bend a different direction or not at all under the influence of the wind? Many would say the bending from N to S is perfect, and within the laws of nature - why would He intervene. Sure this makes sense, but only offered to exemplify a point and that is His active participation in this world.
This is at the crux of my query.

praṇām

[devotee]

Namaste Yajvan ji,



Īśvara ( ruler, Lord, the Divine with form - saguṇa-brahman), is He actively participating in this world? this Universe? The Upaniṣad-s inform us He enters into this creation.

Yet Kṛṣṇa informs us in the Bhāgavad-gītā (4.14 ) ' actions do not involve me, nor have I any longing for the fruit of action '
One can say - how could He not? He is the very essence of consciousness , His cit-śakti ( power/energy of consciousness)make all of us animated.

There are a few verses I shall like to quote :

"Na Kartritvam na karmANi lokasya srijati prabhu,
Na Karmaphala sanjogam svabhavstu pravartate !" (BG 5.14)

====> The Isvara doesn't create the action, the cause of action or the result of the actions. It is the Nature that works.

"Yada Yada Hi Dharmasya Glanir Bhavathi Bharatha,
Abhyuthanam Adharmaysya Tadatmanam Srijami Aham". (BG 4.7)

"Paritranaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam.
Dharma sansthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge". (BG 4.8)

===> Whenever there is decay of righteousness O! Bharatha And a rise of unrighteousness then I manifest Myself! For saving the righteous, and the virtuous, For the destruction of evil, For the re-establishment of the Dharma, I advent myself in every age.


The first quoted verse & the two thereafter above must be simultaneously true as Krishna knows what exactly he is talking about. BG 4.7 & 4.8 ... is it not indulging in action ? But let us not forget that it is as per the Nature as stated in the first verse & He knows it too well. He appears to be involved but is not because he doesn't associate (attach) himself (individual self) in all actions & that is why he remains unaffected by the actions though apparently involved in it. That is the remedy he prescribes to Arjuna i.e. the Karma-Yoga, to remain unaffected by the effect of all actions in this world.

OM

[amra]

Namaste Devotee
The Lord is unattached to the world and as you write "he remains unaffected by the actions though apparently involved in it." Then the question becomes, in relevance to this thread, is this 'apparent' involvement able to influence events in the world or is Ishvar unaffected by maya and therefore indifferent to us mayins or those possesed of maya.

Namaste Yajvan
My understanding is the 'gods' are the cause of events on Earth, God is the cause of all causes thus his direct influence is limited. The lesser 'gods' reflect their images down to Earth, but the image becomes blurred with succesive reflections. The images are what move Humans. Jung called them archetypes. The desire for something sweet like a cake impels us to act and find a cake and maybe get money to buy a cake - numerous actions. The desire is an image with a certain energy that enables action. The quality and depth of certain desires vary. The primordial image is from the 'gods' but this pure image gets blurred by maya and therefore instead of a desire that is in Harmony with the forces that originated the desire, thereby sanctifying it, the desire becomes 'bastardized' seperated from the vivifying forces that originated it. We can only act in this world through the power of the 'gods' as they are the source of all images the pure reflections of the cause of causes, they are pure potentialities. So whatever act is done in this world is only done by the power of God, it is the only way it can be done. The duty of our human birth lies connecting our act with the pure form of potentiality that originated it. An act in sacrifice to God is to raise an act to the reflection of a pure image an act in harmony with the universe, whereas an act that is muddied by maya leads to the destruction of man. Sorry to have wandered off topic but, this leads to the idea that for a viceregent to intervene in the life of man is not possible, man must first bring his actions in line with that of the viceregent to allow the viceregent to act through him. There is no entity seperate from man that can affect him man can only conduct the effects of forces.

[harekrishna]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
Yes, He abides in us all - to this I agree fully. Yet does He intervene? Do he choose another action for a person other then the one that would have occurred via the natural flow of karma ?
It is said, not even a blade of grass moves without His knowing… of this I have no doubt. Yet if the blade of grass was to bend from North to South, would Īśvara at times choose it to bend a different direction or not at all under the influence of the wind? Many would say the bending from N to S is perfect, and within the laws of nature - why would He intervene. Sure this makes sense, but only offered to exemplify a point and that is His active participation in this world.
This is at the crux of my query.

praṇām
Yajvan Ji,
Here is my limited understanding.
In universe, it is Prakriti that is being acted upon. Prakriti would include all material/energy and the methods of transmitting information (such as electricity). All the actions are coming out of this Prakriti.

BG 3.27
प्रकृते क्रियमाणानि गुणै: कर्माणि सर्वश: ।
अहंकारविमूढात्मा कर्ताहमिति मन्यते ॥
Everywhere, of nature (Prakriti) and by dispositions (Gunas) the actions are performed. Deluded by ego (Ahamkar), I am doer(Karta), one thinks that way.

Further more Ishwara as told in Yogasutra I.24 states -
क्लेशकर्मविपाकाशयैरपरामृष्टः पुरुषविशेष ईश्वरः |
Isvara is a distinct, incorruptible form of pure awareness, utterly independent of cause and effect, and lacking any store of latent impressions.

So, Ishwara is someone who is not associated with actions. It is form of pure awareness. Therefore, actions cannot come out of Ishwara alone. Such is the existence, that Ishwara's manifestation in Prakriti is required to perform the actions. Now since, Ishwara is free of latent impression(sanskaras), He or she can act totally in Dharmic tradition. That is probably why Krishna does say that He needs to incarnate when Adharma is too much.

Once Ishwara is manifested in Prakriti why would He change the laws? My understanding would be that laws remain as they are, because ultimately they are part of creation as well. Our understanding of these laws can be limited or can be based on certain assumptions, but they
are what they are, Purusha cannot act outside of it.
Look forward to more clarifications.
HariH Om.
Hare Krishna

[devotee]

Namaste Amra ji,



The Lord is unattached to the world and as you write "he remains unaffected by the actions though apparently involved in it." Then the question becomes, in relevance to this thread, is this 'apparent' involvement able to influence events in the world or is Ishvar unaffected by maya and therefore indifferent to us mayins or those possesed of maya.


As I understand it, the involvement is apparent from God's perspective. It is not that action is not there. Action is there without his involvement as He is the Knower that all actions are due to the three gunas of the Prakriti. This non-involvement is at mental level (through non-attachment to the results) though there may be involvement at the physical level.

So, as action is there, there is effect on this world of those actions. Lord is unaffected from Maya only because of this non-involvement at mental level & this rule applies to everyone. That is what he advises Arjuna that he should do the work without getting involved in it mentally (through non-attachment to the results) & thus remain free from all sins or merits (punya) arising out of those actions.

OM

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté harekrishna (et.al)



In universe, it is Prakriti that is being acted upon. Prakriti would include all material/energy and the methods of transmitting information (such as electricity). All the actions are coming out of this Prakriti.

BG 3.27
प्रकृते क्रियमाणानि गुणै: कर्माणि सर्वश: ।
अहंकारविमूढात्मा कर्ताहमिति मन्यते ॥
Everywhere, of nature (Prakriti) and by dispositions (Gunas) the actions are performed. Deluded by ego (Ahamkar), I am doer(Karta), one thinks that way.


I wrote

Yet Kṛṣṇa informs us in the Bhāgavad-gītā (4.14 ) ' actions do not involve me, nor have I any longing for the fruit of action '

Some great insights and conversations are coming from this string. I wish to add another verse from the Bhāgavad-gītā (5.14) that contributes to the conversation:
The Lord creates neither the authorship of action nor the action of beings; nor does He create the link between ( the doer ), the action and its fruits. Nature (prakṛti) carries this out.

' Beings ' says Kṛṣṇa create their own actions and this has been consistent.

Now, one must re-read Bhāgavad-gītā (3.22) In the 3 worlds there is no action which I need to do (says Kṛṣṇa) , nor is there for Me anything worth attaining unattained - even so I am engaged in action.

That is, our entire creation is the manifested aspect of His unmanifested perfectly silent Being. Here is His 'action' - remaining unmanifest He manifests Himself as all 3 worlds ( and probably beyond that). Yet there is a conversation we must have at the end so we too experience this full range of living from manifest to unmanifest - but I offer this to show the full range of the Divine.

His agents of action are the 3 guna-s - this has been offered by several HDF members above. Yet devotte offers a compelling position that has great bearing on this topic,

"Paritranaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam.
Dharma sansthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge". (BG 4.8)
Whenever there is decay of righteousness O! Bharatha And a rise of unrighteousness then I manifest Myself! For saving the righteous, and the virtuous, For the destruction of evil, For the re-establishment of the Dharma, I advent myself in every age.

Even though the Lord during His daily routine ( if I may have permission to say that) stays out of the affairs of individuals but provides the 'raw materials' for actions to continue i.e. the guna-s, He will intercede by Kṛṣṇa words of the 7th-8th verses of chapter 4 of the Bhāgavad-gītā.

And if we look to the greater picture of the Mahābhārata, we find Kṛṣṇa's influence again and again - He is interceding. Was his selection of actions ever wrong? how could they be? As He knows what the results of those actions will yield today, tomorrow and of the future, how could a directive from Him be a wrong choice?

praṇām

[atanu]

So, Ishwara is someone who is not associated with actions. It is form of pure awareness.

Namaste harekrishna,

It is true, yet all actions flow simply because of Brahman-Ishwara's existence. Prakriti would be just void, if it had no owner.

I will relate a story to clarify. Parikshit was a stillborn child, from the effect of arrows of Asvatthama. It was known that only by touch of a nityabrahmachari could the child be saved. But even Suka, who was a genuine celibate, dared not touch the child. Then Krishna said "If I am a nityabrahmachari may the child be brought to life." Parikshit was thus saved. But we know of Krishna's raslila with 16000 gopis.

It is said that Ishwara does not see anything or anyone different from himself. Krishna teaches that although all objects are from Him, He does not abide in objects. For Him there is no action, though He acts. On the other hand, we see others all the time, and act impelled by that motivation of separateness.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Yajvan ji and all

Nice discussion is flowing, I see mainly from Bhagvat Gita, I am sure others can join us from using other source of information not that I am complaining because I find Gita to be great source of information and some what easy to follow.



Yes, He abides in us all - to this I agree fully. Yet does He intervene? Do he choose another action for a person other then the one that would have occurred via the natural flow of karma ?
It is said, not even a blade of grass moves without His knowing… of this I have no doubt. Yet if the blade of grass was to bend from North to South, would Īśvara at times choose it to bend a different direction or not at all under the influence of the wind? Many would say the bending from N to S is perfect, and within the laws of nature - why would He intervene. Sure this makes sense, but only offered to exemplify a point and that is His active participation in this world.
This is at the crux of my query.

Although I find in everyday scheme of things he does not intervene or does he? but in extreme circumstance he does as it has been pointed out by Devotee ji, bg. chapter 4 from time to time he does advent to bring the balance.
I also feel it is he, who gives us the knowledge to overcome obstacles when we are lost in this darkness of existence, although we later give our self the credit, yet I wonder many times in my case, how did I do that.

He is our chetya guru within and when we deserve or sincerely desire he sends the Guru externally to transcend this dukhaliyam, the abode of misery.

When devas and danavas got together to churn the ocean it was lord Hari who acted as pivot and we all know what would have happened were it not for Lord Shiva to drink the poison.

He answers the prayers, so that could be another form of intervention.

Story of Gajendra comes to mind.

And then he says this
To those ever steadfast devotees, who always remember or worship Me with single-minded contemplation, I personally take responsibility for their welfare. (9.22)

I give the knowledge, to those who are ever united with Me and lovingly adore Me, by which they come to Me. (10.10)

I like this one, so karuna sagar is more active then we think.

Out of compassion for them I, who dwell within their heart, destroy the darkness born of ignorance by the shining lamp of knowledge. (10.11)

I swiftly become their savoir, from the world that is the ocean of death and transmigration, whose thoughts are set on Me, O Arjuna. (12.07)

Jai Shree Krishna

[harekrishna]

Atanu Ji,
Namaste.

Namaste harekrishna,

It is true, yet all actions flow simply because of Brahman-Ishwara's existence. Prakriti would be just void, if it had no owner.

It is said that Ishwara does not see anything or anyone different from himself. Krishna teaches that although all objects are from Him, He does not abide in objects. For Him there is no action, though He acts. On the other hand, we see others all the time, and act impelled by that motivation of separateness.

Om Namah Shivaya

I agree with the fact that Lord Himself acts. As told by you, also by Yajvan jee, Devotee jee, Ganesh Prasad jee among others.

The point is he could not act if there were no Prakriti, and He, the pure one, was not in existence within Prakriti. Action is happening in Prakriti. As told in BG 4.7 and 4.8, Lord Himself manifests when there is too much of Adharma. My reading is that, therefore, for Lord to act He needs to get into the field of Prakriti. Since He is a perfect Yogi, the fruits of the actions (Karma phalas) do not attach to him, and He acts in total consonance with the Dharmic laws.

Please note that I am making a differentiation between Ishwara and Purush. Ishwara is a liberated Purusha or, Ishwara is Lord Himself. Ordinary purushas like myself are indeed one and the same as the essence of Ishwara. But, deluded by the conditioned mind (Sanskaras), we act on the impulses from Indriyas and revel in the fruits of the actions (Karmaphalas). So, in a way, the essence of Ishwara indeed is working through various Purushas. But the ordinary Purusha can not be working cent percent (Shat Pratishat) within Dharma because of the Sanskaras. For Lord to act and bring back the Dharma, He indeed needs to incarnate.

Now why would Lord act outside of the laws of Prakriti? The seemingly miraculous acts of Lord must indeed be within these laws. Because of our limited understanding, we fail to understand the right laws. Let me give an example. Science now has made tremendous progress. If we took an instrument like Television and showed it to some isolated Adivasis in forrest, it would be magic for them. Many of them indeed can think that these actions are real and happening as it is. When my simpleton grandmother from village (God bless her) watched Ramayana, she indeed thought that this was the real Ramayan. Lord Himself was showing up on TV every Sunday at 9 am. (Just as a thought- even with all these misunderstanding, as a spiritual person she was probably more evolved that a city dwelling consumerist person like myself). The point is, for ignorants like me, I fail to understand these laws properly.

For the point raised by you, would Prakriti be void if Brahman was not there? The question also is - was there a time and would there be time when Prakriti or Purusha totally disappers. Is the relationship that of an master/servant or that of dual existence?

Prakriti likely will dissolve, when everyone is a realized soul. Was there a time when it was true or will be true. Hypothetical question, but I guess not. For lots of ordinary mortal, there is enough of Artha and Kama pleasures for the Prakriti to continue....

HariH Om.
Hare Krishna

[atanu]

Atanu Ji,
Namaste.

I agree with the fact that Lord Himself acts. As told by you, also by Yajvan jee, Devotee jee, Ganesh Prasad jee among others.

The point is he could not act if there were no Prakriti, and He, the pure one, was not in existence within Prakriti. Action is happening in Prakriti.

Dear Harekrishna,

I agree to what you say.

Yet, there are two steps. First is to discriminate Purusha and Prakriti and keep them separate through constant mindfullness. Rig Veda says that Lord Indra does this. In the second step, however, the flesh and all that we see has to be known as names of consciousness that is the sole reality. There is not another.

For example, ego is not individual property. So, there is no individual ego, but the sense "I am" rises from Atman and associates with different objects, which are only names of consciousness.

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

atanu writes,


Yet, there are two steps. First is to discriminate Purusha and Prakriti and keep them separate through constant mindfullness
This is of the greatest import … this viveka¹ ( discrimination) between puruṣa and prakṛti - that is, between Self and not-Self, between intellect and transcendent , between Silence and activity.

All these are the distinction (viveka) between that Silence within and the activity without. This is the grooming of consciousness, so one can keep that Silence in mind all the time ( 7x24x365).

This brings to light Kṛṣṇa's words in the Bhāgavad-gītā, 2nd chapter 50th verse, He whose intellect is united (with the Self) casts off both good and evil even here. Think of good and evil for this śloka to also say 'opposites' , and opposites are all found in the 3 guna-s. And what is the 3 guna-s? Prakṛti.
This union Kṛṣṇa speaks of equals being possessed of the Self (Bhāgavad-gītā 2nd chapter 45th verse). This condition is where one will finally understand by experience the following: ' actions do not involve me, nor have I any longing for the fruit of action ' -Bhāgavad-gītā (4.14).

Much more can be said about this. This condition or state is the discussion of the ages, being at peace and one with ātman - established in yoga (Bhāgavad-gītā chapter 2 verse 48).

But it is worthy of discussion - this distinction of Self and non-Self by intellectual effort (brute force) is IMHO most difficult to achieve due to the vigilance that has to be exercised. That is why the wise suggest various techniques ( upāya - skillful means). This is where various meditative techniques are aimed. To allow the individual to experience the Silence of the Self, then contrast it to the Activity of life - silence and action. This grooms one to this viveka to discern Self from non-Self over time.

praṇām

words
viveka विवेक- discrimination , distinction ; consideration , discussion , investigation; true knowledge , discretion , right judgement , the faculty of distinguishing and classifying things according to their real properties

[devotee]

All these are the distinction (viveka) between that Silence within and the activity without. This is the grooming of consciousness, so one can keep that Silence in mind all the time ( 7x24x365).


So simple and so much valuable ! :)

OM

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste Yajvan,

I think you have touched upon a profound and very interesting question.

I had been quite confused about IsvarA's role in the grandeur of creation. According to sAnkhyA, IsvarA is like the artist who takes part in the cartoon he has drawn and then rediscovers his ultimate identity as one with the artist himself.

Of course, that is quite an oversimplification, but I feel another apt analogy for this is the fan. If you ever wonder how a fan really functions, one would just say, "Plug it in!" Well, the electricity is like consciousness that flows through the wire and into the motor that gives it its "life", which then turns the blades and pushes the air through. An appliance, like the fan, can said to be nonexistant without that infusion of "energy". In manifested reality, it seems to be just the same with consciousness.

With your question of intervention however, I feel that although the electricity powers the motor, it does not run through the blades and enclosure of the fan, thereby only indirectly affecting them. With consciousness on the other hand, there is NOTHING that is not touched by it. In fact, there is, according to Advaita, nothing but consciousness!

I believe Sri Ramana Maharishi stated that while we are in the mode of avidya (ignorance), we think we take independent action, however once we are jnanis (realized), there is not a single action that is not predetermined or truly independent!

I don't think one lifetime is enough to come to a satisfactory answer for such a question!

Namaskar.

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Īśvara ( ruler, Lord, the Divine with form - saguṇa-brahman), is He actively participating in this world? this Universe? The Upaniṣad-s inform us He enters into this creation.

Yet Kṛṣṇa informs us in the Bhāgavad-gītā (4.14 ) ' actions do not involve me, nor have I any longing for the fruit of action '
One can say - how could He not? He is the very essence of consciousness , His cit-śakti ( power/energy of consciousness)
make all of us animated.

Yet the question may be posed with an example… let's say we add ~energy ~ ( consciousness) to a car ( the world, society,
the individual, etc). One can say this energy is active - it propels the car forward, it is involved with the car. Yet the energy/gas does not care ( indifference) which direction the car is going. Like that, is this the condition of Īśvara - the essence of all things, yet is indifferent to the direction the individual, society, universe is going?

By the laws of nature of expansion, the society grows, the universe expands, the individual grows physically and spiritually - i.e.
'auto pilot' is on.

Does the Lord intervene in this world, in affairs? What is your thinking on this matter?

praṇām

[atanu]

Namaste TTA,

Some scripture and commentaries suggest the similarity with role of sun or of air with Ishwara's role. Sun exists so we exist, though Sun remains the same and untouched by our existence and our karma. But because of Ishwara, the sun exists and functions. It is said that fear of Him drives all devatas (Katha Upanishad). In opposition to Sankhya, Shankara re-emphasized that it is Ishwara who regulates the karmaphala of all.

On the other hand, at another level, for a Jnani-Mukta, Ishwara is not a separate Lord. The Self itself becomes the Lord and whatever else.

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté TTA and atanu,

Brillant posts - thank you.
there is so much truth in what you say,


I believe Sri Ramana Maharishi stated that while we are in the mode of avidya (ignorance), we think we take independent action, however once we are jnanis (realized), there is not a single action that is not predetermined or truly independent!


May we all have the opportunity to experience this. My teacher called it, becoming an exponent of Reality.

praṇām