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Star
08 October 2009, 03:57 PM
Namaste :)

Today I have decided to formally start my apostasy/excommunication process from the Roman Catholic Church.

After having done some googling (*lol*) in Portuguese (I was born here but lived abroad for quite a few years so I'm still not familiar with certain areas of language, especially such specific/technical terms like religious ones...), I came up with the following piece of text (now translated it to English):

""I, XXX YYY, bearer of the Identity Card number 12345678 from 00/00/0000, from the Arquivo de Identificação de Lisboa (Lisbon's Identity Archive) (as you can see on the attached document [[attach a photocopy of ID card]]), would like to, in a free and fully conscious manner, request, in conformity with the canonical norms that regulate it (cf. can. 124-126), for an actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica to be processed, having as a consequence a full rupture with the vincula to the Roman Catholic Church, including its faith, sacraments and pastoral community.

Therefore, and in the conjugation of two elements - an internal act and its corresponding external manifestation (the elaboration of this request) - I kindly request that the information in my baptism records (cf. can. 535, § 2) is updated in order to explicitly mention a "defectio ab Ecclesia catholica actu formali”, and thus fulfill my will to excommunicate from the Roman Catholic Church.

Yours sincerely,

XXX YYY"

I realise apostasy from the Catholic Church is usually a troublesome process, as they don't seem to like it much, so any suggestions as to how to improve my text before sending it off are very much appreciated.

I'm about to send an email to "the church" (got an email address off their Contact section in their Portugal website) asking whom should I send off my letter to. I've read some conflicting information - some sources claim you should send it to your current local parish priest, and some claim you should send it to the priest who baptised you (I don't have a clue who he is...), so I'd like a reply from them so I may also quote it in my letter.

Another fairly sensitive issue is - I want to take this decision, but I don't want my parents to know about it yet. I should be able to actually include some note in my letter requesting that absolute privacy is kept about my decision outside the "paperwork system" of the Church, shouldn't I? I mean, so that the local priest doesn't run off to my parents or grandmother talking to them about it...if there's "doctor-patient" confidentiality, there ought to be "church-involved person" confidentiality too.

Thanks in advance for any comments, help, feedback, etc.

Much love to all! :)

Eastern Mind
08 October 2009, 04:27 PM
Aum.

Big decision.

But a gal's gotta do what a gal's gotta do. If you know you don't believe, my understanding is that they have to release you. It is there duty. Fortunately this isn't the 1500s or you'd be burning at a stake in the near future.

I suspect that the parish priest would feel duty bound to inform your parents. I could be wrong. Depends on him, I'm sure. I mean confession is confidential, so this should be, too. Often I think they pretend it is impossible, but it's not. You can always go to the person above, like a Bishop.

Remember, this is an insult to their sense of teaching. Its always sad to let a member of the flock go. They may very well feel like they failed you, which is logical. Really I think it is the sense they failed themselves, though.

Just know others have been through this for various reasons. Expect some turmoil. That will be when you go, or if you go back, and he refuses communion. Best wishes.

Aum Namasivaya

satay
08 October 2009, 04:55 PM
namaskar,

As a person born in a hindu family and indian culture, I find this apostasy/excommuncation process a little bit strange. I didn't realize that you actually have to do this to make it official.

May I ask, why you want to break ties 'officially'? What's the meaning of breaking the ties if your heart is of a hindu?

From hinduism point of view, I don't think it is necessary.

Just curious.


Namaste :)

Today I have decided to formally start my apostasy/excommunication process from the Roman Catholic Church.

Thanks in advance for any comments, help, feedback, etc.

Much love to all! :)

Star
08 October 2009, 04:56 PM
I personally think it'd be very disrespectful of him to go and "tell the parents" - it's not like I'm a young child, or even under 18 anymore...but yeah, unfortunately they do do that stuff. I've sent off that email so let's see what they say, hopefully they'll reply soon (and spare me from the "Jesus is the only salvation, you can't leave us" bulls...erm, stuff).

:)

Star
08 October 2009, 05:02 PM
Namaste Satay,

@Satay: I do realise it's a "paperwork only" process, but for some reason I can't quite explain, I feel like when I'm 100% sure this path is what I want, it'll set my mind and heart more at rest. Some would say this means I think that the Catholic Church has the power to define who belongs to "them" and who doesn't. This is true. I recognise they can do that...it'd be a similar situation if I requested the political party I'm affiliated it for me to officially leave; or if I belonged to a scientific society...and so on, and so forth. I see them as little more than an Institution, so they may do such things. When quoting their "laws", I'm also implicitly recognising their ability to have internal laws, like other institutions (again, political, scientifical, academical...etc.; their "laws" exist within a space codified as such, and I believe they should be respected; likewise, if I once belonged "in paper" to an Institution such as the Catholic Church, I believe I should also make a formal leave). I hope my point made some sense, from a "Western" point of view perhaps. :P

Spiritualseeker
08 October 2009, 05:47 PM
namaste,

well star I am very proud of you. It seems like you really are devoted to Sanatana Dharma and to Lord Ganesha. I believe if you truely entrust your will into His Will then this process will be made without obstacles. Please do let us know what happens.

-juan

dhruva023
08 October 2009, 07:50 PM
This is big decision, I hope everything works out nicely.

Eastern Mind
08 October 2009, 08:02 PM
namaskar,

As a person born in a hindu family and indian culture, I find this apostasy/excommuncation process a little bit strange. I didn't realize that you actually have to do this to make it official.

May I ask, why you want to break ties 'officially'? What's the meaning of breaking the ties if your heart is of a hindu?

From hinduism point of view, I don't think it is necessary.

Just curious.

Satay: Here's an analogy. Before you remarry, you have to divorce, no?

Aum Namasivaya

sunyata07
09 October 2009, 10:51 AM
I think it's great that you've decided to take a decisive step forward in trying to establish yourself closer to Sanatana Dharma by cutting ties with the Church officially. You're right about the confidentiality rights you have with talking to your local priest about this. I think it might be a wise decision as well, considering how your family might feel about this. I don't think there's anything wrong at all with going through the paperwork and learning about how you can do this without telling them just yet.

Good luck with what you are doing. May Ganesha remove any obstacles that might hinder you from completing this important step.

Star
09 October 2009, 01:07 PM
Namaste!

Thanks everyone for your kind support. :) I haven't received a reply to my email yet but hopefully it should arrive at some point (though I must say I wouldn't be overly surprised if they didn't reply to an email about apostasy :P in which case I'll probably try and aim for the district bishop, or something...). I'll keep you posted!

I'm also hoping that my university timetable for this academical year will allow me to visit the temple every morning, too (it has a somewhat restricted morning opening hours of 8am-10am). That'd be good. :)

rcscwc
12 October 2009, 12:15 AM
I personally think it'd be very disrespectful of him to go and "tell the parents" - it's not like I'm a young child, or even under 18 anymore...but yeah, unfortunately they do do that stuff. I've sent off that email so let's see what they say, hopefully they'll reply soon (and spare me from the "Jesus is the only salvation, you can't leave us" bulls...erm, stuff).

:)
Lols are in order. Even if you were under 18, they have no business to go to parents. They don't when they convert [even frudulently] those under 18!!

Eastern Mind
12 October 2009, 06:59 AM
Lols are in order. Even if you were under 18, they have no business to go to parents. They don't when they convert [even frudulently] those under 18!!

This is so true, and another reason, I feel, that Star is correct in this method.
There are unethical conversions:
1) converting youth who really aren't up to thinking for themselves
2) using food, bribes, promises of jobs
3) deceptions showing the power of praying to Jesus, (or Allah perhaps)
4) use of the sword or threats
5) converting the dieing on their deathbeds
6) converting after death (as far as I know only Mormons do this)
7) using the 'flirt to convert' method
8) community or peer pressure
9) scare mongering about hell
10) brainwashing methods such as sleep deprivation

Then there is ethical conversion. That is being straight forward and honest with all who might care, and letting them know beforehand. Then the people affected have the understanding that the individual who wishes to convert is doing so solely because of their own wishes, with sane mind.

Clearly Star is following the second option. I feel proud to accept someone like this into this great faith.

Aum Namasivaya

Star
12 October 2009, 01:06 PM
Thank you, EM. :)

And yeah rcscwc, it's definitely on the verge of amusing...but I wouldn't put it past them to do so, at all! :/

I've emailed two people so far (used a generic central Church info email address, and my district's) and no one has replied to my emails, and I don't think they will...for some strange reason... *cough* I'll email my local parish tonight (using just my name's initials as I wanna enquire about privacy!), and if they don't reply until the end of the week then I suppose I'll just address my letter to the head of the RC Church in the country...?

OM.

Eastern Mind
12 October 2009, 03:30 PM
Star: I think you are asking for this in a very predominantly Catholic country. Here in America or Canada, although the RC church is strong, it is just one of many. It will be interesting indeed. After the bishop or cardinal, then the pope! You go. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Aum Namasivaya

Star
12 October 2009, 03:37 PM
Yeah, their statistics indicate that they "represent 80% of people in the country", meaning actually that 80% or so have been baptised as children, which isn't anywhere near them being practising Catholics...even if that's what they're attempting (poorly?) to imply. I'll write to whoever it takes, it just a bit frustrating not getting a reply! I wonder if they think not replying to my emails will make me "stay" with them... :S

sunyata07
13 October 2009, 01:17 PM
Haha... frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they just tag all such emails as spam and throw them into the thrash. You can't trust religious statistics in any case. A lot of it is just a bunch of numbers masquerading under the guise of a fact. There's actually very little statistical basis to go by it, so it's essentially religious propaganda.

Keep writing! If they don't answer you a first time, send them a second email, and a third, and a fourth... if that doesn't cut it, go to the Pope. He is the head of the Catholic Church, after all.

Star
13 October 2009, 01:38 PM
*lol* If all else fails - and this sounds like the it's a better idea, actually - I'll just go to where I *think* my parish of baptism is and try to talk directly to someone there. I do suppose baptism books are probably kept in their relevant church, aren't they? Otherwise, there'd have to be a huuuuuge library somewhere... (I just got this mental imagery of me standing outside with a huge "GIEF TEH APOSTASY NOWZ~!!!11!!1!ONE" banner...oh my... :P)

eriko
14 October 2009, 10:34 AM
""I, XXX YYY, bearer of the Identity Card number 12345678 from 00/00/0000, from the Arquivo de Identificação de Lisboa (Lisbon's Identity Archive) (as you can see on the attached document [[attach a photocopy of ID card]]), would like to, in a free and fully conscious manner, request, in conformity with the canonical norms that regulate it (cf. can. 124-126), for an actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica to be processed, having as a consequence a full rupture with the vincula to the Roman Catholic Church, including its faith, sacraments and pastoral community.

Therefore, and in the conjugation of two elements - an internal act and its corresponding external manifestation (the elaboration of this request) - I kindly request that the information in my baptism records (cf. can. 535, § 2) is updated in order to explicitly mention a "defectio ab Ecclesia catholica actu formali”, and thus fulfill my will to excommunicate from the Roman Catholic Church.

Yours sincerely,

XXX YYY"

Wow. Not beacuse it seems wonderful or anything. But this is so strange.



Another fairly sensitive issue is - I want to take this decision, but I don't want my parents to know about it yet. I should be able to actually include some note in my letter requesting that absolute privacy is kept about my decision outside the "paperwork system" of the Church, shouldn't I? I mean, so that the local priest doesn't run off to my parents or grandmother talking to them about it...if there's "doctor-patient" confidentiality, there ought to be "church-involved person" confidentiality too.

Have you told your parents about it as yet? I think you should have told them beforehand. I can understand that they might have obstructed you from this but still. Though this is just a personal opinion but you should tell them as soon as you can. It won't be good keeping this a secret for long.

Star
14 October 2009, 02:11 PM
Have you told your parents about it as yet? I think you should have told them beforehand. I can understand that they might have obstructed you from this but still. Though this is just a personal opinion but you should tell them as soon as you can. It won't be good keeping this a secret for long.

Namaste :)

I haven't told them yet, and to be fair I don't think I will do before I leave for my own place (ie. after university), as there's a significant risk of physical violence being involved (especially with dad)...and while my body is only a temporary means for my soul to be around here, I do think I should care for it the best I can, which also means trying to stay away from physical harm...and if that means keeping my religious thoughts secret for a few more years, then so be it.

And regarding the "letter"...yeah it is pretty weird, but with the sort of people I'll be dealing with in Church I thought it was best to keep it as formal and as "in accordance" to their cannonic laws (or whatever they're called) as possible, so that they don't give me the "ah, but it's not clear enough" excuse...

eriko
15 October 2009, 09:40 AM
I haven't told them yet, and to be fair I don't think I will do before I leave for my own place (ie. after university), as there's a significant risk of physical violence being involved (especially with dad)...and while my body is only a temporary means for my soul to be around here, I do think I should care for it the best I can, which also means trying to stay away from physical harm...and if that means keeping my religious thoughts secret for a few more years, then so be it.

I see. I guess my Dad would just throw me out of the house if I ever decide to turn into muslim. Not that I would but I can very well imagine myself as dead.


And regarding the "letter"...yeah it is pretty weird, but with the sort of people I'll be dealing with in Church I thought it was best to keep it as formal and as "in accordance" to their cannonic laws (or whatever they're called) as possible, so that they don't give me the "ah, but it's not clear enough" excuse...

Is it that you have or had some official relationship with the church or every citizen of your country who is born as a christian has to do it (letter)?

Star
15 October 2009, 01:53 PM
Is it that you have or had some official relationship with the church or every citizen of your country who is born as a christian has to do it (letter)?

I'm not sure I understood what you meant by official relationship...I was never a nun or a "Sunday school" teacher or anything as such, the closest I got to anything as such was singing and reading in mass when I was about 8-10 years old (I think). But I don't think that counts as official... :?

If we are to consider the amount of "Catholics" the Church claim they have in the country (80%...what a laugh), and out of those I'd imagine quite a few would like to not have any formal (or mystical) ties with the Church, but don't actually know they can go through an apostasy process and/or they can't be bothered with it. I've come across a Portuguese atheist website and the three men who run it are siblings, but only one went through with a formal apostasy process from the Church, his siblings didn't find it necessary.

I'm not sure that actually answered your question as it didn't quite understand the question itself but I hope it made some sense... :)

sunyata07
15 October 2009, 03:22 PM
Namaste Eriko,

I think Star is after some closure here, something which may seem strange, but is actually quite reasonable if you consider that it has been her religion her whole life. It's a big step in one's life. A bit like a statement of beliefs and maybe even a dedication of sorts to devote her time to her new religious path. One does not necessarily have to have been employed by the Church or been especially religious, but now that she has been visiting her temple and making offerings at home, I can understand why she'd want to put any Catholic ties she's had in the past properly behind her. It's all relative. In my case, I am still "officially" a member of my Church, although I don't consider myself a practising Catholic any longer. I may eventually follow suit like Star and try and see about cutting ties proper.

eriko
16 October 2009, 02:00 AM
I'm not sure that actually answered your question as it didn't quite understand the question itself but I hope it made some sense... :)

Yes it made sense. I thought that you might be holding some position in the church and that is why you are following such a procedure. But of course you weren't. And yes I do understand now why you feel this to be necceasary.


I think Star is after some closure here, something which may seem strange, but is actually quite reasonable if you consider that it has been her religion her whole life. It's a big step in one's life. A bit like a statement of beliefs and maybe even a dedication of sorts to devote her time to her new religious path. One does not necessarily have to have been employed by the Church or been especially religious, but now that she has been visiting her temple and making offerings at home, I can understand why she'd want to put any Catholic ties she's had in the past properly behind her. It's all relative. In my case, I am still "officially" a member of my Church, although I don't consider myself a practising Catholic any longer. I may eventually follow suit like Star and try and see about cutting ties proper.

I see. I think I got it. Sorry if I caused unnecesary trouble. Thanks to both of you.

Star
16 October 2009, 03:35 AM
Namaste Eriko :) You caused no trouble at all! This is a discussion board after all and your question was perfectly valid. I suppose the whole "formal apostasy letter" just seems a bit weird as a "religious tool" for someone from an Indian background, non? Least I thought it sounded a bit like a "Western thing" to do (albeit necessary, in my point of view)...

ScottMalaysia
21 October 2009, 12:56 PM
Namaste Star,

I am a former Roman Catholic. To be excommunicated from the Catholic Church, all you need to do is stop believing in the Catholic faith.

The Code of Canon Law (1983) states:

(http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P52.HTM)Can. 1364 §1 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P52.HTM). Without prejudice to the prescript of can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.

Latae sententiae literally means "given sentence". It means that the penalty comes into effect automatically as soon as the offence has been commited. By committing the sin of apostasy (rejecting Catholicism altogether), heresy (rejecting a specific Catholic doctrine) or schism (rejecting Church authority), one automatically excommunicates oneself from the Church. The moment you stopped believing that Jesus Christ was the only way to God and started worshipping Lord Ganesha, you excommunicated yourself from the Catholic Church. Congratulations, you are no longer part of the Church.

(By the way, a Catholic mother who gets an abortion also excommunicates herself in the same way.)

However, if you want to give yourself closure, you may wish to go to the parish where you were baptized and ask the priest if he will either remove your name from the parish records or write "Declared Apostate" beside your name. But you do not need to get a priest or any Church official to excommunicate you. You did it yourself by believing in another religion.

I never did this when I left the Catholic Church to join the Eastern Orthodox Church. My name is probably still in the parish records, but I don't really care. I know I'm not a Catholic (although I do still love the Traditional Latin Mass and Catholic devotions like the Rosary).

rcscwc
28 October 2009, 11:02 PM
Yeah, their statistics indicate that they "represent 80% of people in the country", meaning actually that 80% or so have been baptised as children, which isn't anywhere near them being practising Catholics...even if that's what they're attempting (poorly?) to imply. I'll write to whoever it takes, it just a bit frustrating not getting a reply! I wonder if they think not replying to my emails will make me "stay" with them... :S

Agains lols are in order.

If you go by the stats of the church, India became predoninantly xian YESTERDAY. If you believe them, millions of Hindus are already knocking on the church doors for conversion. But the stark fact is that for the last century, xian population in India has stagnated at about 2.5%, inspite of the high birth rates.

But I still think you must take your parents into confidence. They will not like it, but they do deserve to know. It is at least a moral duty for you.

Second, if your convictions are strong, you should not be afraid of any violence, physical or mental.

Gotam
02 November 2009, 05:44 AM
Namaste,

I got a catholic education, but catholicism never really spoke to my heart. I have known many different types of priests and churchgoing laymen, and had affection for some, but I have always been an outsider to their faith, even though as a child, I was expected and often had to practice.

One reason why I felt a stranger to catholicism is the fact that although Jesus was clearly opposed to legalism (the strict application of the word of a law, in his case Jewish law), the church that pretends to replace him, has created a body of law. They even try to make us believe that carrying out their instructions amounts to following Jesus' example! The opposite is true. People believed this when it was still forbidden for catholics to read the Bible, and when the parish priest was the main source of information in the village.

Thirty years ago, I considered leaving the catholic church formally. But several friends of mine who had sent letters to their bishop to that effect had received no reply. That is normal: if they had to spend time writing to all those who leave their church, there would be no time left for anything else. In Europe, they already lack staff and volunteers for their most basic tasks.

I had not seen the point in following their legalistic, obedience/disobedience logics before, but then I was told the church would get more subsidies from the Belgian state if I officially remained a catholic. That was wishful thinking. It is true in Germany, and the result is that fewer Germans leave their church than Belgians do: when you force people to pay taxes for something, they will dislike it more than if they pay for it on a voluntary basis (like in Germany). I ignored the church, did not follow any formal apostasy procedure and simply went my own way. And that is what nowadays 80% of baptised Belgians do. They will never return. Catholicism in Western Europe is doomed.

What is left is sometimes a form of more or less spiritual Christianity without the church and its law, and more often a rejection of Christianity, or even of all forms of religion. The good news is that many more people are open to all sorts of old and new ideas and lifestyles nowadays. Dharmic traditions tend to be respected. The bad news has been excessive materialism, but although it is still very strong, I get the impression that that, too, is on the way out.

Now there is no materialistic church to declare our apostasy to. Apart from the communist party, but their materialism is not the most successful one. If there was a church for every conviction, some people would have to write apostasy letters every second year.

PatrickMB
28 November 2011, 11:46 PM
I personally believe that anyone who sincerely follows the teachings of the Christ will find liberation. Just as sincere followers of Zoroaster, Mohammed and Hinduism will achieve moksha. I am very tired of the prostlitizng of the Abrahamic Faiths. Let every sincere soul find its own path to the Lord.

Adhvagat
29 November 2011, 06:23 AM
Patrick, I, differently from some more radical over here, also believe that once there was an original purely spiritual introspective teaching of spirituality based on Christ's teachings. But the problem is: How to be a sincere follower of Christ guiding oneself through a book tainted by a very dark history? Where are the sincere Christ teachings not amidst a very old moral codex? Can we trust them? Should a Christian believe in reincarnation? (http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm) The problem is not that being a Christian is bad, the problem is HOW to be a sincere follower of Christ. It's been wiped away by those very people who like to call themselves Christians. The other problem is dumb universalism, when we try to mingle (so-called) Christianity and Dharma just because society (or our own sentimental connections) expects us to still be Christian.

As I was reading in a book just yesterday, quoting in a free translation:

Christianity, in certain aspect, has become a historical reminiscence. Like we were rehearsing our historical past, transforming it into an exterior imitation.

If we observe the history of the western world, with its wars and bloody fights, we'll see that Christianization did not hit us. We are Christian in the outside, but when it comes to interior psychological facts, we're barbarian pagans completely. We read the gospel, repeat its verses, but most people are not touched by it.

My experience is exactly this. I was never touched spiritually by Christianity, I never resonated with it. But for those who resonate with, by all means be sincere and try to look beyond all the lies and historical mess.

Some interesting threads for your consideration:

- http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=21821&postcount=81
- http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2954

sm78
29 November 2011, 08:57 AM
I personally believe that anyone who sincerely follows the teachings of the Christ will find liberation. Just as sincere followers of Zoroaster, Mohammed and Hinduism will achieve moksha. I am very tired of the prostlitizng of the Abrahamic Faiths. Let every sincere soul find its own path to the Lord.

Those who try to FOLLOW teachings of dead humans whether Christ, Zoroaster, Mohammed or Buddha or Krishna will NOT achive moksha. By following somebody one can at best become a follower with different degrees of fanatism. Also since neither mohammed nor christ teach anything about moksha - the fanatism will perhaves express in other dimensions like missionary activities or terrorist violence. Followin a terrorist will make you a terrorist follower. Mohammed was prolific terrorist leader of his time.

charitra
29 November 2011, 09:45 AM
Last week I was watching Natgeo documentary on ‘wars’between the English and the Native Americans during 1700s to early 1800s. No distortions can be blamed on here since everyone involved in the production are Americans to the extent I can tell, mostly the ones who wrote the journals those days. (Here I would like to admire and commend west for their commitment in successfully preserving a lot of their untainted history in print form in the libraries.) I was shocked to learn that the English went on a purposeful genocide to physically eliminate several tribes out of existence by sneaking upon the native villages during night times burning down their villages, hunting down killing all men and gifting away the women and kids as slaves to other rival tribes as a bribe for cooperation. Not to leave a singleman to live was the key to success, ‘cause no shathru sesham would be good (something like ‘leave no man alive, who will for sure avenge in future’). The treaties signed were all scrapped unilaterally as success was serving an inspirational driving force. Religion was ‘gifted’ to those subjugated and terrorized left over communities as the only survival option (Naya you said this a few times). And once evangelized the natives had to listen to the pastors, and the pastorsare always wining and dining with thegenerals, you get the point.

Ironically those are the very same years, in far off south asia the English were exposed to the dharmic life of hindus, and sadly nothing did they learn from the pious people of those regions. Apparently as someone said above the dharmic mindset of abrahamics is a window dressing, just very superficial make over. Massive killing rampage was a serious ingrained tenet Europe could not get rid of in all those several hundreds of years their main faith allegedly ‘ruled the minds’ of the adherents.

As Pietro said Historyis a turn off, but present is equally a turn off due to its stiff incompatibility clause essentially proving an existential threat to other faiths. It sits in the company of Islam on both the accounts. No wonder the 2 faiths are turned staple diet for most atheists. Namaste.

Eastern Mind
29 November 2011, 10:25 AM
I personally believe that anyone who sincerely follows the teachings of the Christ will find liberation. Just as sincere followers of Zoroaster, Mohammed and Hinduism will achieve moksha. I am very tired of the prostlitizng of the Abrahamic Faiths. Let every sincere soul find its own path to the Lord.

Vannakkam Patrick: If there is such a thing as the teaching of moksha in Abrahamism (and I personally doubt there is, but for the benefit of this, let's say there is) it is most certainly extremely hidden (within secret monasteries or lonely offshoot sects ... maybe), and covered up by historical alterations to teachings. Why worry about it when Sanatana Dharma has it so totally open and stated, not vague or uncovered or secret at all. It's just a basic tenet. "All souls are guaranteed moksha." it's kind of like searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack, or walking over to a store and buying a needle. The second method just appears so much simpler to me.

Aum Namasivaya

Eastern Mind
29 November 2011, 10:29 AM
I was shocked to learn that the English went on a purposeful genocide to physically eliminate several tribes out of existence by sneaking upon the native villages during night times burning down their villages, hunting down killing all men and gifting away the women and kids as slaves to other rival tribes as a bribe for cooperation.

Vannakkam: I find the purposeful spreading of smallpox even more atrocious. Imagine what the stink would be today if germ warfare was used. Not sure if you knew about that one. Here in Canada, especially the Catholic Church and the government did indeed try to cover a lot of it up. The whole history of the residential schools is something else.

Aum Namasivaya

Jainarayan
29 November 2011, 11:13 AM
I didn't realize that you actually have to do this to make it official.

...

I don't think it is necessary.

Just curious.

You don't, and it's not. I know this is an old thread, but just to add to what ScottMalaysia wrote. There is no need for any formal withdrawal process from any church. You simply stop going and stop believing. I also did what he did... left the RCC, joined the EOC, but then had enough of the whole business and just fell away.

If one belongs to a small parish, the priest may contact the parishioner as to why s/he stopped participating in church. Then one might state the intentions and reasons. But in a large parish (which most are), the priest(s) probably don't know the parishioner "from Adam".

Kismet
29 November 2011, 06:13 PM
I think there are a lot of good reasons for defection from the Catholic Church.

One is that, if you have certain loves around you who ground their affections for you on the basis that your name is included in some ledger, then your right to fly in the face of such a base condition of 'love' is fully justified.

Also, if you are prone to superstitions about hell and the Abrahamic God cursing you (not that you are, but I've noticed we all - or at least I do - have this slightly crazy tendency to lean towards foolish superstitions or lapses of willpower when faced with such imposing authority figures) it is the most upright and honorable thing to do, to disassociate yourself from an institution which can only perpetuate fear and guilt in you. It is breaking a mental bond inside you; nothing more or less.

I can think of many other reasons, but I'll leave it at that.

Eastern Mind
29 November 2011, 06:23 PM
Vannakkam: The choice is yours. You can attend a funeral or not, whether the person is close or distant. The choice is yours to make. But I'm personally with the person who chooses to let the church know you're going. It just seems like the honest honourable thing to do, especially if there was any commitment, by you, them, or anybody. I have many other reasons as well, none of which will make much sense on an intellectual level.

Aum Namasivaya