Darkness of knowledge?

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

the īśāvāsya upaniṣad , 9th śloka informs us of the following:
andhaṁ tamaḥ praviśanti ye avidyām upāsate |
tato bhūya iva te tamo ya u vidyāyṁ ratāḥ ||

The definiton of the words will be helpful for a reasonable discussion...

andhaṁ or andha अन्ध- blind, dark, darkness; as a noun it is also a name for people :(
tamaḥ or tama तम- darkness
praviśanti प्रविशन्ति - moving forth, through, entering ; we can see this in pra+vi+śanti. Note that 'vi' is rooted in 'bhid' to pass through which also means to transgress , violate.
ye or yaka यक- who
avidyām or avidyā अविद्या - ignorance; unlearned , unwise
upāsate or upāsana उपासन - homage, worship; also serving , waiting upon , service , attendance ; as a noun it is 'being intent on or engaged in' .
tato or tata which is tad तद् - meaning that, in that manner, therefore
bhūya भूय - becoming, being, yet bhū means 'to be transformed into' ; it also means 'to fall to the share or become the property of'
iva इव - in the same manner as, as if
te , in my view this is iti इति -which means in this manner , thus ; also used as ' as you know'
tamo tamaḥ or tama तम-is darkness
ya य or yaka यक - who
u उ - or, on the other hand (uta); some say 'but' or 'now'
vidyāyṁ or vidyā विद्या - knowledge - this can be true or false, yet we think of learning , scholarship , philosophy. Some
say there are some there are four vidyā-s or sciences i.e. 1. trayī , the triple veda ; 2. ānvīkṣikī , logic and metaphysics ; 3. daṇḍa-nīti or science of government and 4. vārttā , practical arts , such as agriculture , commerce , medicine .Yet we must add a 5th, ātma-vidyā , knowledge of soul or of spiritual truth. Some say there is 14 divisions of this family of vidyā-s : the four vedas , the six vedāṅgas , the purāṇas , the mīmāṃsā. nyāya , and dharma or law ( 4 + 6 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 =14).
ratāḥ or ratā रता- delighted; pleased , amused , gratified ; this also means intent upon , fond or enamored of , devoted or attached We now have a base of defined words. I have also added 4 translations¹ below so one could compare and contrast how others see this. IMHO this śloka suggests the following,
Those who worship (upāsana) ignorance (avidyā) enter/move forth (praviśanti) into blind darkness (andha-tamaḥ);
yet ( 'u' or on the other hand) those that delight (ratā or are enamored) with knowledge ( vidyā or vidyāyṁ) in the same manner (iva) fall into or are possessed ( r become i.e. bhūya) by darkness (tamas).

How can this be? How can one that pursues vidyā fall into greater darkness? How does one then rationalize this śloka with the offering Kṛṣṇa gives us in chapter 4, 38th śloka of the Bhāgavad gītā:
na hi jñānena sadṛṣaṁ pavitram i.e. certainly ~indeed (hi) there is nothing (na) so purifying (pavitram) or suitable (sadṛṣaṁ) then knowledge (jñānena).

There must be something deeper that is being offered in this īśāvāsya upaniṣad, no? Do you have a POV on this matter and how to make sense of this seemingly apparent contradiction?

praṇām

references

4 translations - Three different views of this śloka + one scholarly for good measure :)


svāmi śivānanda
They who worship avidyā (ignorance) fall into blind(ing) darkness : and they who worship vidyā alone fall into even greater darkness -
svāmī muni nārāyaṇa prāsad
Into a blinding darkness enter those who adore ignorance (avidyā), and more pitch-black as it were is the darkness entered by those who delight in knoweldge vidyā
svāmī prabhupāda
hose who engage in the culture of nescient activities shall enter into the darkest region of ignorance. Worse still are those engaged in the culture of so-called knowledge
Board of Scholars - edited by KL Joshi, O.N. Bimala and Bindia Trivedi
The persons who are mere devotees to material learning (avidyā) surround in the gross ignorance (darkness); and they also in the same way surround ( trapped) with ignornace who are only devotees to learning ( conscience)

[Onkara]

Dear Yajvan
This is an interesting post you offer. I would like to offer my point of view.

I see the knowledge of the scriptures as being progressive. They offer understanding based on the grasp or level of the aspirant. The BG is a good place to begin:


na hi jñānena sadṛṣaṁ pavitram i.e. certainly ~indeed (hi) there is nothing (na) so purifying (pavitram) or suitable (sadṛṣaṁ) then knowledge (jñānena).

Krishna addresses Arjuna at his level of understanding. I believe Arjuna is new to the path and so Arjuna is told to focus on knowledge as the way to purifying his mind. Knowledge will remove ignorance. The removal of ignorance results in knowing Brahman. Some Guru say a clear purified mind is required to reflect the brilliance of Brahman. This I feel is the same point being made; purificaiton comes through knowledge.

The next point is that knowledge must eventually be seen as a tool for purifying the mind, and not the goal itself. The goal is to know Brahman.

Knowledge is picked up and eventually after serving its purpose must be dropped and left behind in light of something new or more valuable. That which is most valuable is Brahman.

Once the knowledge has shown us the Truth, we risk lingering on the scriptures and feeling that knowledge is the saviour and that it should be maintained and loved. This is not necessary and the following paragraph goes on to make that point clear:

In the following:

yet ( 'u' or on the other hand) those that delight (ratā or are enamored) with knowledge ( vidyā or vidyāyṁ) in the same manner (iva) fall into or are possessed ( r become i.e. bhūya) by darkness (tamas).

Brahman is sat-chit-ananda and not limited to books or scriptural knowledge. The scriptures are like a boat, they take us to a wonderful new place, but once we have reached the place of sat-chit-ananda we must leave the boat (knowledge/scriptures) and dwell on land (remain in Brahman).

Clinging on to the boat (scriptures or knowledge) risks us being washed back in to the dark waters of ignorance (due to our mind's habit of conceptualisation and being enamoured of scriptures/knowledge).

I hope that adds some use. I would welcome feedback as always.

I would like to add that I find your translations and terms you explain very useful for my study of Sanskrit. Thank you!

[DavidC]

Yajvan, that is pretty deep, and I do not really know but Snip makes sense. Even excessively left hand path 'esoterists' can be cunning, but that does not mean their knowledge is illuminating--quite the opposite. If one focuses on esoterism (intellectualism) without mysticism (ahimsa and the way to intellectual virtue) then one may not be virtuous and one may not attain enlightenment. Average goodwill and practical smartness can be euphemized enlightenment, but without spiritual practice they lead nowhere and that smartness untempered has historically led to problems and incivility.

Another thing is, as Mahayana Buddhist sutras say 'all dharma is empty.' I guess it says the same about virtue, but virtue is relative to culture and it means one should not be attached to intellectual dogmas about anything: iInspiration is key and involves the Logos (reason; Shabdha; Om; Brahm; causality) more than intellect does. One cannot restrict oneself to the senses--not even the manasic senses.

Shabdha -- word
Om -- creative word
Brahm -- creative Divinity
manas -- mind.

[devotee]

Namaste Yajvan ji,

The quoted verse has troubled me like none else. :)

However, imho, to understand what this Upanishad wants to convey we must have in front of us the complete reference. So, I quote the other related verses too here :


IX
They enter into blind darkness who worship Avidya (ignorance and delusion); they fall, as it were, into greater darkness who worship Vidya (knowledge).
X
By Vidya one end is attained; by Avidya, another. Thus we have heard from the wise men who taught this.
XI
He who knows at the same time both Vidya and Avidya, crosses over death by Avidya and attains immortality through Vidya.

XII
They fall into blind darkness who worship the Unmanifested and they fall into greater darkness who worship the manifested.
XIII
By the worship of the Unmanifested one end is attained; by the worship of the manifested, another. Thus we have heard from the wise men who taught us this.
XIV
He who knows at the same time both the Unmanifested (the cause of manifestation) and the destructible or manifested, he crosses over death through knowledge of the destructible and attains immortality through knowledge of the First Cause (Unmanifested).

This Upanishad uses two terms Vidya & Avidya. It cannot be that by attaining knowledge/jnana one can enter blinding darkness. Moreover, the jnana (enlightenment) is self-illuminated which doesn't a sun or moon to shine that realm. Keeping that in mind, it is apparent that the definition of Vidya & Avidya must be understood carefully in the context of this Upanishad.

Let us remember that this Upanishad gives equal importance to living in this world & indulging in right action in this world :


Verse II. If one should desire to live in this world a hundred years, one should live performing Karma (righteous deeds). Thus thou mayest live; there is no other way. By doing this, Karma (the fruits of thy actions) will not defile thee.

The path of knowledge i.e. Vidya (say pure meditation or contemplation on Shruti) tends to neglect worldly action or it may lead to unconsciously. IMO, this Upanishad warns us not to neglect the worldly knowledge and action which may be seen as Avidya by the seekers of path of knowledge. Now if one neglects the knowledge of this world & related action , he may not even survive or may not be able to lead a life which is required for pursuing the path of knowledge. We must remember that this body is the vehicle for all dharmas (Sharir mAdhyam khalu dharma sAdhanam) and support of this world is also necessary. So, the required knowledge and action is needed to maintain this harmony. If the knowledge of so called Avidya is neglected, then it would be difficult to cross the death even (i.e. the body will perish & meet death) & that will put an end of the path of Vidya too.

IMHO, if we see these verses in this context, the doubts are removed.

OM

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté Snip

Dear Yajvan
The next point is that knowledge must eventually be seen as a tool for purifying the mind, and not the goal itself. The goal is to know Brahman.


What you offer is of key import - and I think goes to the core of the wisdom of this 9th śloka. It suggests not to confuse the vehicle with the goal. Knowledge is wonderful, yet it is a tool. It is like removing a thorn in the hand with another thorn ( as my teacher would say).

Also too, svāmī Lakṣman-jū informs us that ignorance is not so much what you don't know, but what you do know that is just not right.

Davidc writes,

that is pretty deep Yes, we go deep every now and then :) . This part of HDF is for subject matter that is more advanced in nature found within sanātana dharma. The file folder we're in is called uttara उत्तर which means upper, higher, chief, excellent, more powerful.

you mention

One cannot restrict oneself to the senses
Yes, I see your point. There are ways to go beyond the senses, as they tend ( on occasion) to mislead us. It comes down to, do they work for us, or do we work for them?



devotee writes

it is apparent that the definition of Vidya & Avidya must be understood carefully in the context of this Upanishad.
Yes, I think more attention on this is due and we can address it a bit deeper, as 'opposites' exist throughout this īśāvāsya upaniṣad.

you offer the 2nd verse,


one should desire to live in this world a hundred years, one should live performing karma (righteous deeds). With further inspection of this verse, there is a wealth of wisdom within it. You are (IMHO) right with your assessment - allow me to contribute one more view.
One should desire to live one-hundred years - jijīviṣecchataṁ samāḥ. To the casual reader, we accept the well wishes of the ṛṣi offering this sūkta. Yet just as you offer that we must look to these śloka-s (content) within the context they are being offered ( a most wise POV I may add), we need to look at this śloka in the same manner; let me explain if I may.

One could say the īśāvāsya upaniṣad, of only 18 śloka-s ( + śānti pāṭha introduction) has 5 groupings ,we can review this in a future post. The 1st three śloka-s are one group. This 1st group gives a vision of how one may wish to live to enjoy the potential of human life leading to liberation - this is all influenced by the invocation (śānti pāṭha) of pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaṃ - That is full (whole) this is full (whole). It talks of the fullness of life and the fruition of life that one can enjoy this fullness.

Now this 2nd śloka is still within this 1st group of one's full potential offer. So, the ṛṣi suggests we should aspire to live 100 years. This has several implications:

Good health
living with right actions
Living harmoniouslyYet this 100 is key , it is the 'code word' for living in fullness, pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaṃ - if 'That' is full and 'This' is full, then you too are this fullness. This is the notion of 100 , having 2 meanings - that of health and longevity but also the fullness of the relative field of life ( denoted by 1) and the Absolute field of life ( denoted by the 0 or zeros).
Now it says living 100 years one is to be engaged in activities, karma. Action must still occur. Many will say right action and to this I agree. Yet with one living the fullness of '100' ~ mokṣa ~ right actions naturally occur. Why so? Because one is established in yoga and fulfills the instruction of Kṛṣṇa (Chapt 2.48) in the Bhāgavad gītā: yogasthaḥ kuru karmānī- established (or steadfast) in yoga ( union) perform actions (karma).

Then actions do not bind us - they are right actions. Why so? they are performed in every case by the 3 guna-s (traiguṇya). We then are established in the SELF, untouched by actions, actions continue under the authorship of prakṛti ¹ .

The above is one view we can consider. I am sure there are other views, as one can still beg the question of 'higher' knowledge vs. 'lower' knowledge.

I hope to hear your continued insights and others regarding this matter.

praṇām


words
prakṛti = pra प्र excessively , very , much + kṛti कृति doing, action

[kd gupta]

Namaste Yajvanji

I find your every effort useful , one thing pl. tell me , so that I may not proceed to darkness of knowledge.
You use the picture of lord Rama but never discuss about .Is anything from darkness to knowledge which cites using Hanumanji [ rama bhakta ] emblem in Krsn’s chariot flag ?

[srivijaya]

Those who worship (upāsana) ignorance (avidyā) enter/move forth (praviśanti) into blind darkness (andha-tamaḥ);
yet ( 'u' or on the other hand) those that delight (ratā or are enamored) with knowledge ( vidyā or vidyāyṁ) in the same manner (iva) fall into or are possessed ( r become i.e. bhūya) by darkness (tamas).

Upon reading these words, 1.02. of the Siva Sutras was brought to mind:

Knowing differentiatedly is bondage and not knowing undifferentiatedly is bondage.
http://www.universalshaivafellowship.org/usf/teachings_02_first.html

It's a little different in meaning but appears in the first moment to be just as paradoxical and challenging.

The "knowledge" of which one can become enamored is not the supreme knowledge, rather its pale and distorted reflection; accumulated intellectual knowledge which can become a prison and a support for the ego. In this we fall to differentiated knowledge; self, other, right, wrong, mine, yours etc.

To sink into ignorance is to have no thirst for knowledge, to never seek. To be entirely preoccupied and engrossed with the sensory world and also to have no awareness of the undifferentiated state within deep sleep.

The knowledge we need is gnosis, direct and untainted. Awareness illuminating the blind darkness.

At least that is how I interpret it.

Namaste

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté srivijaya




http://www.universalshaivafellowship.org/usf/teachings_02_first.html

It's a little different in meaning but appears in the first moment to be just as paradoxical and challenging.

The "knowledge" of which one can become enamored is not the supreme knowledge, rather its pale and distorted reflection; accumulated intellectual knowledge which can become a prison and a support for the ego. In this we fall to differentiated knowledge; self, other, right, wrong, mine, yours etc.

To sink into ignorance is to have no thirst for knowledge, to never seek. To be entirely preoccupied and engrossed with the sensory world and also to have no awareness of the undifferentiated state within deep sleep.

The knowledge we need is gnosis, direct and untainted. Awareness illuminating the blind darkness. At least that is how I interpret it.


Yes, we have talked of this in the past in the śiva sūtra posts of ~2008. This 2nd sūtra says:
jñānaṁ bandhaḥ
jñāna ज्ञान - knowing, knowledge (is) bandha बन्ध- binding, tying , a bond , tie , chain


This knowledge from the śiva sūtra-s fits nicely with the wisdom offered in the īśāvāsya upaniṣad. The 2nd sūtra says its binding, but what knowledge is binding? That which is limited or aṅgāḥ , the limb or part. It is when this knowledge is not connected to the whole aṅgi ( the whole), this is what makes it bound. It is the limited perception of the individual that binds.


And what is the whole? It is īśā or brahman that is the whole. When we are disconnected , even with knowledge from the whole, then this binds.


So , the question could be (upon exiting this immediate post) how did svāmī Lakṣman-jū get to this translation of the 2nd sūtra ?


Knowing differentiatedly is bondage and not knowing undifferentiatedly is bondage.
...as the wisdom still applies quite nicely to the īśāvāsya upaniṣad

praṇām

[devotee]

Namaste Yajvan ji and Srivijaya,



The "knowledge" of which one can become enamored is not the supreme knowledge, rather its pale and distorted reflection; accumulated intellectual knowledge which can become a prison and a support for the ego. In this we fall to differentiated knowledge; self, other, right, wrong, mine, yours etc.


That is very nicely stated ! :)

Let me add some more here :

Isavasya Upanishad sets the tone with its Shanti Path which deserves a very close examination and deep understanding. Purnam Adah ... that is whole/complete/infinite (here Purnam is used as noun and not adjective, so this Purnam is independent of any limitations & must encompass all by definition) and again it says Purnam Idam .... this is whole/complete/infinite. As having two Purnam simultaneously is an impossibility, there should be no real difference between these two Purnams ... i.e. both must be essentially the same.

But it does talk about two Purnams ... an obvious contradiction. Why ? Because within the mental realm there is perception of the manifested and the unmanifested ... i.e. two. The same Purnam which is can be stated neither unmanifested nor manifested in reality when reflected from mind gives perception of two Purnams where one appears manifested and the other unmanifested. And therefore the need of two Purnams in this verse.

If we examine the verses 2 & 9 to 14 keeping the Shanti Path of this Upanishad in mind, the intention of Rishi becomes very clear. The seeker must not neglect the knowledge of manifested reality (or action in this life or worshipping the manifested) for knowledge of ( or worshipping ) the unmanifested or vice-versa.

------------------------------------------

I would like to hear Yajvan ji's and others' views on verse 15 :

Hiranmyena pAtrena satyasyApihitam mukham,
Tatvam pUshannpAvriNu satyadharmAya dristaye ll

(The face of the truth is covered with a golden disc. Unveil it, O Pushan, for so that I who love/worship the Truth may see it)

What is the golden disc here ?

OM

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté devotee (et.al)


I would like to hear Yajvan ji's and others' views on verse 15 :

Hiranmyena pAtrena satyasyApihitam mukham,
Tatvam pUshannpAvriNu satyadharmAya dristaye ll

(The face of the truth is covered with a golden disc. Unveil it, O Pushan, for so that I who love/worship the Truth may see it) What is the golden disc here ? OM

Yes, this is worthy of addressing - what of this pātra पात्र (a drinking-vessel , goblet , bowl , cup , dish , pot , plate ) ?

Yet I thought you would ask 'why have we gone from īśā to puṣan? ' . Puṣ पुष् is to cause to thrive or prosper , nourish. From this root we can see why īśā may be addressed as such. This puṣan is one of the ādityā-s , He nourishes the earth and the yajamāna. We find Him called out in the ṛg ved. In fact in the ṛg ved 1.42 we find Him as a remover of obstacles and for me fits nicely with the 15th śloka , asking puṣan to uncover it ( or unvail it as you have mentioned) - remove this obstacle.

Yet what of this pātra ? What could it be covering? Reality, truth (satya) as the śloka says. This is the hint... the truth is covered by this golden disc.

Some too take this 15th śloka as a prayer of the dying. This is not my view, yet I have offered it as many suggest this as such.

praṇām

[Onkara]

Namasté

Verse 15 is indeed a puzzling verse. Is the golden disk symbolic of consciousness? The solution is provided partly in verse 16 of the translation I found online:



15. The door of the True is covered with a golden disk. Open that, O Pushan, that we may see the nature of the True.


16. O Pushan, only seer, Yama (judge), Surya (sun), son of Pragapati, spread thy rays and gather them! The light which is thy fairest form, I see it. I am what He is (viz. the person in the sun). Source. (http://www.realization.org/page/namedoc0/isa/isa_2.htm)

From this my sensation is that the inner consciousness is comparable to the light of the sun i.e. “Spread thy rays… the light which is they fairest form, I see it”. We know this could not be sunlight at its most common level because we are then told “I am what He is”. For me this reflects on the sun being an essential life provider, much like consciousness.

I continue to be interested in others interpretations. I also wonder if there is reference to other parts of the Vedas (with which I am not yet acquainted) in this metaphor?

I would also like to offer a following observation on verse 2 and would enjoy your feedback. We have touched lightly on it earlier but it still remains in my mind as it describes where the aspirant finds herself / himself before enlightenment, that is; not wanting to die, but desiring to live for a long time:


Verse II. If one should desire to live in this world a hundred years, one should live performing Karma (righteous deeds). Thus thou mayest live; there is no other way. By doing this, Karma (the fruits of thy actions) will not defile thee.

Here we are being reminded that it is our desires which must be counter-acted by performing karma (righteous deeds). It is a desire to live in this world for one hundred years. So in order to continue as we are, we are being reminded that there is no other way to live with this desire for longevity than to continue on the path of karma.

The Upanishad then goes on to take the aspirant further by telling us that that other considerations which must be seen and surpassed to arrive at the ultimate truth. In my humble opinion it is not necessary to say that the desire to live a long time is wrong as it is all part of wisdom of the Upanishad. None the less when the grace of enlightenment is unveiled there is no longer action (Karma) and no longer desire that requires individual action. There is not even desire to live or to die as it becomes clear that it is all part of Brahman. I feel this verse is a prelude to furthering our awakening and not a final answer to those who wish to go further on into enlightenment.

[devotee]

Namaste Snip,


From this my sensation is that the inner consciousness is comparable to the light of the sun i.e. “Spread thy rays… the light which is they fairest form, I see it”.

I am not able to say anything at this moment on this view. However, as Yajvan ji says, the hint lies in, "This Golden Orb covers the Truth". You have given another excellent hint : "The Purusha within the Sun with the golden orb is none but I alone".

I have done some research on internet since then & I found a good explanation from Swami Nirmalanand Giri. I shall reproduce the excerpt below for further contemplation on this :



The “golden orb” has more than one meaning, all of which are significant.
1) The most obvious meaning of the golden orb is the sun itself. All plant, animal, and human life on this planet depend upon the sun. It is the subtle powers of sunlight which stimulate growth and evolution. Sunlight particularly stimulates the activity of the higher centers in the brain, especially that of the pineal gland. Even in the depths of the earth a sensitive man can tell when the sun rises and sets above him. The sun appears to illuminate
us, but it is a light that covers the Light in order to lead us to the Light. We must use it to go beyond it.

2) All things have an inner and outer life, and that includes the sun. We may say that there is the outer sun of the material universe, and there is also the metaphysical sun of the psychic universe. They operate simultaneously, being the same thing. The sun truly awakens us in the deepest sense. As the germinating seed struggles upward toward the sun and out into its
life-giving rays, so all higher forms of life reach out for the sun, which acts as a metaphysical magnet, drawing them upward and outward toward ever-expanding consciousness. The Chandogya Upanishad discusses it in this way: “Even as a great extending highway runs between two villages, this one and that yonder, even so the rays of the sun go to both these worlds, this one and that yonder. They start from the yonder sun and enter into the nadis.
They start from the nadis and enter into the yonder sun.…When a man departs from this body, then he goes upwards by these very rays or he goes up with the thought of Om. As his mind is sailing, he goes to the sun. That, verily, is the gateway of the world, an entering in for the knowers, a shutting out for the non-knowers.”

The solar rays do not just flow into this world, they also draw upward through the sun and beyond. In the human body the process of exhalation and inhalation is related to solar energy, and much of the solar power on which we subsist is drawn into the body through our breathing. The solar rays do not just strike the surface of our body, but actually penetrate into the physical nerves (nadis). The nadis are also the channels in the astral body that correspond to the physical nerves. Just as the electrical impulses flow through the physical nerves, the subtle life force, or prana, flows through the subtle nadis and keeps us alive and functioning.

The prana, then, is a vehicle for the solar energies that produce evolution.
When the individual comes into manifestation on this earth he passes from the astral world into the material plane by means of the sun, which is a mass of exploding astral energies, not mere flaming gases. And when the individual has completed his course of evolution within this plane, upon the death of his body he rises upward in his subtle body and passes through the sun into the higher worlds, there to evolve even higher or to pass directly into the depths of the transcendent Brahman.

3) The golden orb is also the entire creation, the means by which through experience the individual spirits can evolve to perfect conscious union with God. Without it we would be unable to attain that union. Yet, just as we use a ladder or stair to ascend and then step beyond it, in the same way the creation is meant to be eventually transcended. We must therefore keep both these aspects in mind while living in this world.

4) The golden orb is also our own mind–that which perceives the world around us and the intelligence which comprehends what is going on and directs our lives accordingly. Potential is not enough; there must be actualization. It is our mind alone that can lead us beyond the mind, our intelligence alone that can lead us onward to intuition. At all stages the mind and intelligence are “golden,” but if we allow ourselves to become stagnated at any point they
rapidly “tarnish” and turn from beneficial to harmful. Immersed in this creation, we are like the fish that must keep perpetually moving for they will die of suffocation if they come to a standstill. If we do not move forward we shall move backward–and often mistake it for progress. We must Get On and Get Beyond.
5) Our own self (atman) is also the golden orb. We must come to know our self–our true self–and delight in the self and wonder at its nature. But that is not enough. We must then pass onward to experience the Self of our self, the Paramatman. In a sense we transcend the self–but of course we do not, since the Supreme Self and our individual self are one. This transcendence must ever be kept in mind, for out of ignorance and even laziness a lot of people like the idea that we need only enter into the experience of our self and that is the end. The same wrong-headed view abrogates the need for our evolution and assumes that if we must smash the machine we will get the picture–or even worse, that there is no picture to see or even a seer to see it. However cleverly this view may be worded or how sophisticated it appears, it is nihilism of the deadliest sort, a ruinous pitfall.
6) The golden orb is also the evolutionary impulse within all things which, though life itself to the evolving spirit, yet urges us to continual transcendence of its various stages until we transcend it as well. It is a golden stair that urges us onward to the heights where it cannot
come.

In my opinion, the fourth is the best description of the Golden Orb. The mind is the golden orb which "creates" this universe & obscures the Truth.

I shall get back to 2nd verse again in my next post.

OM

[chandu_69]

The following site gives Somewhat straight forward(less advanced..perhaps) translation and explanation to the Upanishad quoting the preceding succeding verses

(http://www.dvaita.org/sources/shruti/translation.html)

And Advaita explanation for Avidya

(http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/teachers/delusion_subrahmanian.htm)

jIva, brahman Itself deluded as it were

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté
If I may let me offer another way of looking at this 15th śloka. I will need a minute to set the stage on this golden vessel, container, plate or pot.

hiraṇmaya हिरण्मय - golden , gold-coloured
pātra पात्र - a drinking vessel , goblet , bowl , cup , dish , pot , plate Just a friendly note that we are in the file-folder called uttara and hence some new/deeper concepts are discussed here; hence some 'open-ness' to new ideas may be in order as one reads.

Lets consider 2 views: classical ( traditional ) and a deeper view more esoteric , saṃketa (hint) or dravya¹ - substance, the ingredients of anything.

These two views are found in the word upaniṣad and is worth mentioning as it sets up the conversation properly. We know īśāvāsya as a upaniṣad and we are familiar with two naming conventions of upaniṣad.

The Classical view
In and of itself upaniṣad is defined as a esoteric doctrine , secret doctrine - some hidden wisdom.

Saṃketa view
upa + ni + ṣad
upa is to sit near, down, below, by the side of + ni is 'near by' or nikaṭa + sad is to sit down before; yet this 'ṣa' of ṣad is what is of importance. It (ṣa) means wise, learned. It also means eternal happiness , final emancipation.
So we have sit down near, by, the side of the wise and learned. From here we can surmise one gains 'ṣa' eternal happiness , final emancipation.

Note that upaniṣad is rooted (√) in sad, to sit down. This 'sad' is also another way of writing 'sat' and we know this as being , existing. In its masculine use it is a good, wise man.
If upaniṣad ended with śad - then this śad is to destroy, remove, throw down. And what is it destroying? Ignorance.

So we can see how profound this upaniṣad word is - to sit near the wise, which will destroy ignorance, bring eternal happiness via final emancipation.

Like that we can look at this 15th sloka and the notion of this golden disc, hiraṇmaya pātra in two ways.

Classical view
That of āvaraṇa (covering, hiding) śakti (energy) of māyā. That is, the covering of the truth, of reality with the energy of māyā. This which appears to be one thing but is not. Hence the śloka says O' Pūṣan¹ uncover it, remove it so I may be hold it( Reality).

What is reality covered by? Ignorance. And what fuels this ignorance? Māyā - as the Infinite is measured out in 'things' , in finite pieces of the world. Many call this māyā ~illusion~ ( I am not a fan of this, but understand why it is used). That is the illusion of this golden vessel, of its 'value', gold and perceived value! Yet the true treasure is below this gold vessel or plate and that is Reality.

One could even argue the attachment to things, those things that are considered precious 'gold' in the opinion of people, that wish not to give this up (attachment), as they find the value so enticing - this is what holds one back from Reality and what the ṛṣi is asking Pūṣan to remove as he is a remover of obstacles.

Saṃketa view
For this view I offer the words of svāmī muni nārāyaṇa prāsad; He sees this word 'disc' we have talked of as a vessel, a pot, a container in a different light. He is of the opinion the ṛṣi is telling the seeker the following:

If you think what I have just said ( in the past śloka-s) reveals what you expect to realize you are mistaken. What I have shown you through these words is simply a golden vessel in which what you seek is hidden.
The words I have uttered may should very attractive and meaningful just like a golden vessel. Therefore you may mistake the vessel for the priceless treasure you're in search of. Do not be misled. Be prepared in your mind to open this golden vessel-like wording I have used to perceive directly the unsaid Reality preserved ( residing) therein.

This IMHO is a very interesting POV one must consider… is it the only view? Nope. Yet a POV that opens new meaning for the serious inquisitor.

praṇām

words

dravya द्रव्य- elementary substance ; the ingredients or materials of anything ; also another name for gold
Puṣ पुष् is to cause to thrive or prosper , nourish; puṣan is one of the ādityā-s. He nourishes the earth and the yajamāna. We find Him called out in the ṛg ved. 1.42 as a remover of obstacles

[chandu_69]

Namaste


Just a friendly note that we are in the file-folder called uttara and hence some new/deeper concepts are discussed here; hence some 'open-ness' to new ideas may be in order as one reads.

Quite right.I have edited my post to indicate that the links give ordinary explanation(not so advanced).

[chandu_69]

Saṃketa view
For this view I offer the words of svāmī muni nārāyaṇa prāsad; He sees this word 'disc' we have talked of as a vessel, a pot, a container in a different light. He is of the opinion the ṛṣi is telling the seeker the following:

If you think what I have just said ( in the past śloka-s) reveals what you expect to realize you are mistaken. What I have shown you through these words is simply a golden vessel in which what you seek is hidden.
The words I have uttered may should very attractive and meaningful just like a golden vessel. Therefore you may mistake the vessel for the priceless treasure you're in search of. Do not be misled. Be prepared in your mind to open this golden vessel-like wording I have used to perceive directly the unsaid Reality preserved ( residing) therein.

This IMHO is a very interesting POV one must consider…

There appears to be a problem in considering PATRA as VESSEL or POT in this verse because it is talking about mukham = face.

15 hiranmayena patrena satyasyapihitam mukham |
tat tvam pusannapavrnu satyadharmaya drstaye

Face covered with a POT or VESSEL appears, to me atleast, to be quite Unlikely.

That is my somewhat MY less advanced understanding.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté chandu_69



There appears to be a problem in considering PATRA as VESSEL or POT in this verse because it is talking about mukham = face.

15 hiranmayena patrena satyasyapihitam mukham |
tat tvam pusannapavrnu satyadharmaya drstaye

Face covered with a POT or VESSEL appears, to me atleast, to be quite Unlikely.

That is my somewhat MY less advanced understanding.


Yes, what you say of this word mukha मुख the face (& also the mouth) is accurate.
Yet the śloka says the 'face' (mukha) of Truth or satya is covered (apihita) , as it is pointed out in the śloka you were kind enough to provide.

Your answer appears in this word:
satya + sya + apihitam

satya सत्य - true, real; whene used in the femine gender it is speaking the truth , sincerity , veracity; it is a noun of viṣṇu ; also associated with rāmacandra
apihita अपिहित - covered, shut , concealed
sya = sa and we can leave this for another time.I hope this assists you in your understanding.

praṇām

[devotee]

Namaste Yajvan ji,

This thread has been highly satisfying ! Your explanation of "Hiranmayena patrena" is complete & there is nothing left to add, imho.

Your explanation to "Satyasyapihitam mukham" is accurate. Satyasya = of Satya, apihitam = hidden & mukham = face ====> the hidden face of Satya/Truth.

OM

[chandu_69]

Namaste Yajvan,




Yes, what you say of this word mukha मुख the face (& also the mouth) is accurate.
Yet the śloka says the 'face' (mukha) of Truth or satya is covered (apihita) , as it is pointed out in the śloka you were kind enough to provide.

Your answer appears in this word:
satya + sya + apihitam
satya सत्य - true, real; whene used in the femine gender it is speaking the truth , sincerity , veracity; it is a noun of viṣṇu ; also associated with rāmacandra
apihita अपिहित - covered, shut , concealed
sya = sa and we can leave this for another time.I hope this assists you in your understanding.

praṇām

Can you point out the usage of apihitam अपिहित(am)

Is it Apihitam or just apihita ?.For some reason i am unable to locate the exact word Apihitam in dictionary.

Also would appredciate if the word apavrnu can be defined

Also could you please explain Verse 4 anejadekam manaso javiyo nainaddeva apnuvanpurvamarsat |
taddhavato'nyanatyeti tisthattasminnapo matarisva dadhati http://www.dvaita.org/sources/shruti/img1.gif 4 http://www.dvaita.org/sources/shruti/img1.gif

To whom matarisva is dedicating to?.

[devotee]

Namaste Snip,

I hope Yajvanji doesn't mind our discussing other verses here as, imho, all the verses are interlinked & we should see the Upanishad in its entirety to understand the meaning correctly.

I shall quote the Verse 2 here again for ready reference :

Kurvanneveha karmANi jIjivisheta shatam samAh l
Evam tvayi nanyathetosti na karma lipyate nare ll



Here we are being reminded that it is our desires which must be counter-acted by performing karma (righteous deeds). It is a desire to live in this world for one hundred years. So in order to continue as we are, we are being reminded that there is no other way to live with this desire for longevity than to continue on the path of karma.

I see this verse a little differently. "JIjivisheta" ( JIjivishA = desire to live) can also be interpreted as, "One/You should desire to live" i.e. Rishi tells us to have desire to live for 100 years or "fully" i.e. 100 %. So, imo, the emphasis has been given to the importance of living this life fully & for that there is a need to engage in action. I think Yajvanji's explanation of "100" deserves special attention here.

When this living becomes important then it also becomes important to learn the "knowledge" (this knowledge is sometimes termed as Avidya as it engages us in this world, refer verses 9-10-11 wherein the knowledge of Avidya is referred to) required for living in this world "fully". However, the action must be such that it doesn't involve us ... "na karma lipyate nare". That is why though this verse doesn't use the term "skilful action" but it implies that because only action done skilfully, as has been instructed by Lord Krishna in Bhagwad Gita, doesn't involve us.

OM

[chandu_69]

The difficulty with taking pAtreNa as vessel/pot:

Somebody gave a translation

15. The face of the Truth is veiled by a bright vessel. Mayst thou unveil it.


Can a vessel/pot Veil(cover) something? since apihitam only means COVERED/VEILED .

It will be straight forward and simple if pAtreNa is taken as disc/cover and one can say (apavrnu )remove it/Unveil it.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté chandu_69



Namaste Yajvan,

Can you point out the usage of apihitam अपिहित(am)

Is it Apihitam or just apihita ?.For some reason i am unable to locate the exact word Apihitam in dictionary.

Also would appredciate if the word apavrnu can be defined

Also could you please explain Verse 4 anejadekam manaso javiyo nainaddeva apnuvanpurvamarsat |
taddhavato'nyanatyeti tisthattasminnapo matarisva dadhati 4

To whom matarisva is dedicating to?.

Verse 4 offers how this Reality is everywhere at once. Standing still it outstrips those who run - as It ( Reality )is there already - it has no place to go or move, because it is there already. That said, to go deeper and wider, let's wait on verse 4 as to not co-mingle the overall intent of the string, if that is okay.


Regarding satya + sya + apihitam and apihitaṁ. In my last post I left off 'ṁ' . This is called anusvāra. This tells you how to pronounce the word at its ending ; this 'ṁ' says there is a nasal sound ending this word. This is the efficiency of saṃskṛt. You will also see 'ḥ' on occasion . This too is another ending sound called visargha - sometimes this is represented with the symbol ':' . There are many many rules one must consider. It is a continual learning process for me.

Note the dictionary entry for apihita :
apihita अपिहित - covered, shut , concealed
The anusvāra is added for proper grammar structure and syntax. Again many rules ( that I too and still learning). With anusvāra it is written like this अपिहितं - note the dot at the end of the last saṃskṛt letter shown? That same dot/letter = apihitaṁ.

you mention

Can a vessel/pot Veil(cover) something? since apihitam only means COVERED/VEILED
pātra पात्र - is a drinking vessel , goblet , bowl , cup , dish , pot , plate. This is the word at hand we're considering. I find no issue with a pot covering something. How so ? I take a pot and turn it over ( the opening at the bottom) and it can cover say a rock, fork, gem, object with no issue. Some may say take a pot and it has a lid on it. Then something can be covered by putting an item into the vessel/pot.

praṇām

[chandu_69]

Namaste yajvan


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté chandu_69




Verse 4 offers how this Reality is everywhere at once. Standing still it outstrips those who run - as It ( Reality )is there already - it has no place to go or move, because it is there already. That said, to go deeper and wider, let's wait on verse 4 as to not co-mingle the overall intent of the string, if that is okay.


Regarding satya + sya + apihitam and apihitaṁ. In my last post I left off 'ṁ' . This is called anusvāra. This tells you how to pronounce the word at its ending ; this 'ṁ' says there is a nasal sound ending this word. This is the efficiency of saṃskṛt. You will also see 'ḥ' on occasion . This too is another ending sound called visargha - sometimes this is represented with the symbol ':' . There are many many rules one must consider. It is a continual learning process for me.

Note the dictionary entry for apihita :
apihita अपिहित - covered, shut , concealed
The anusvāra is added for proper grammar structure and syntax. Again many rules ( that I too and still learning). With anusvāra it is written like this अपिहितं - note the dot at the end of the last saṃskṛt letter shown? That same dot/letter = apihitaṁ.

you mention

pātra पात्र - is a drinking vessel , goblet , bowl , cup , dish , pot , plate. This is the word at hand we're considering. I find no issue with a pot covering something. How so ? I take a pot and turn it over ( the opening at the bottom) and it can cover say a rock, fork, gem, object with no issue. Some may say take a pot and it has a lid on it. Then something can be covered by putting the pot in the vessel/pot.

praṇām

अपिहितं - = apihitaṁ.
I havent installed hindi/sanskrit fonts and hence the difficulty in pointing it out.


pātra पात्र - is a drinking vessel , goblet , bowl , cup , dish , pot

Ofcourse i knew all possible different meanings of pātra.it is such a common word.


I take a pot and turn it over ( the opening at the bottom) and it can cover say a rock,

Quite an inelegant way of explaining truth.Dont you think?..Make some assumptions and then have to make more assumptions.

The upanishads verses as it is are slightly complex and constructing a sentence in english from sanskrit is not for the people with ordinary sanskrit knowledge.


The reason i am writing this is to highlight the problems the ordinary, confused hindus face with vast scriptures.Adding more confusion is not going to serve any purpose.

Hope you dont take this as personal.

Regards

Chandu

[atanu]

The difficulty with taking pAtreNa as vessel/pot:

Somebody gave a translation

15. The face of the Truth is veiled by a bright vessel. Mayst thou unveil it.


Can a vessel/pot Veil(cover) something? since apihitam only means COVERED/VEILED .

It will be straight forward and simple if pAtreNa is taken as disc/cover and one can say (apavrnu )remove it/Unveil it.

Whoever took pAtreNa as vessel/pot was, it appears, has a very ADVANCED way of looking at things.


Namaste chandu,

Yes, a vessel can hide its contents. The body itself is a vessel that hides Soma.

Any whatever way Isha Upanishad is understood, it is understood as per one's own level and as per one's requirement. I believe that the Dvaita and the Advaita understandings of the Isha verses are both correct. Madhava could not have mis-guided His followers and neither could Shankara do it.

We cannot exist without a moment's karma; yet a yogi is said to be free of all karma. The teachings are for different levels. Inability to see the other perspective is one's own limitation and not of Madhava or of Shankara.

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté


The body itself is a vessel that hides Soma. Om Namah Shivaya

And also houses the Self... (ātman आत्मन्). Yet this vessel, the body (called puri for city) has 9 gates; still this ātman resides within us . Not captured mind you , but in favor of us.

praṇām

[devotee]

Namaste Atanu and Yajvan ji,

For covering anything completely, covering must be from all sides .... i.e. a vessel is a must. A disc cannot hide it unless the disc is too big for the item being hidden. We cannot say that Maya is too big for the Truth.

So, I don't see anything wrong in Patra being interpreted as Vessel here.

OM

[Onkara]

Namasté Devotee

Thank you for your reply on Darkness of Knowledge verse 2.
I am pleased also to read Atanu’s post I quote below as it touches on the topic I have been composing.

After enlightenment action occurs spontaneously (gunas of prakriti) and is not seen to be done by the individual. Before enlightenment man believes himself to be acting, hence why Krishna makes the point in the BG that one should perform actions with the results of their actions should be dedicated to Him.

The Rishi is suggesting that actions (Karma) are a requirement to finding enlightenment but this logically must be targeted at the aspirant who currently believes they are the actor/doer IMHO. One could almost expect a verse later in the Upanishad to supersede this advise. To my eyes there is no verse later to say that it is not the individual who acts but the gunas alone. The lack of such a verse is I feel because once Brahman is known then the question “who is acting” does not need to be answered (the wisdom unveiled the answer) The Rishi does not need to tell us that, the Rishi is showing us how to come to know that.

I think you are correct and make an important observation to say that we should live 100%, we need to embrace life and take it seriously, by doing so the desire to live drives us to find an answer for life itself.

My impression is slightly different. I asked my self why the Rishi would be suggesting that the aspirant should make an effort and embrace life? I imagine the aspirant is sat at his feet and engaged in finding Truth.

I think the reason this verse exists is because the Rishi sees that the aspirant who understands this verse is already embarked on something more serious than the wish to enjoy ones life pursuing pleasures alone but still sees himself as the doer and actor.

The intriguing point Yajvan makes about the number 100 is significant. I understand from your post that the Sanskrit sentence is imperative tense, meaning that we are being ordered to want to live 100 years. That too makes sense as the aspirant wants guidance, he wants to know what to do to achieve enlightenment but it may not mean that it still stands as something which should be obeyed when Brahman is finally known. I would even go as far to say that once Brahman is know then the enlightened man becomes on par to a Rishi (in the sense of realisation) and there remains nothing more to do.

I hope I make myself clear, as I write this not to gain anything or indulge in emotive debate but to try to understand your point of view clearly and humbly hope to add to the discussion.


Peace!
Snip.



Yes, a vessel can hide its contents. The body itself is a vessel that hides Soma.

Any whatever way Isha Upanishad is understood, it is understood as per one's own level and as per one's requirement. I believe that the Dvaita and the Advaita understandings of the Isha verses are both correct. Madhava could not have mis-guided His followers and neither could Shankara do it.

We cannot exist without a moment's karma; yet a yogi is said to be free of all karma. The teachings are for different levels. Inability to see the other perspective is one's own limitation and not of Madhava or of Shankara.

[chandu_69]

Namaste chandu,

Yes, a vessel can hide its contents. The body itself is a vessel that hides Soma.

Any whatever way Isha Upanishad is understood, it is understood as per one's own level and as per one's requirement.

Namaste Atanu,

I am not sure i understand this with respect to the upanishad that was quoted.


I believe that the Dvaita and the Advaita understandings of the Isha verses are both correct. Madhava could not have mis-guided His followers and neither could Shankara do it.

I would not go the extent of challenging the doctrine of Shankaracharya.I didnt find Shankaracharya's treatise on the upanishad in question.The advaita link i quoted is from modern advaitans.

[atanu]

Namaste Atanu,

I would not go the extent of challenging the doctrine of Shankaracharya.I didnt find Shankaracharya's treatise on the upanishad in question.The advaita link i quoted is from modern advaitans.

Namaste Chandu

The following is the translation of Shankara Bhasya of the 2nd verse of Isha Upanishad. (Tr. Mr. M. Hiriyanna).

2.

Always performing karma here,one should desire to live,for a hundred years. So long as thou (seekest to live) a mere man, no other ( path ) exists (where) activity does not taint thee.



Kurvanneva = Sblwa^ys performing. iha = {heve) karnidni = rites such as agnihotra. jijivishet = one should desire to live. satam=one hundred in number. sa7?ia/i= years. For thus much is known to be the maximum age of man- Since (this is) a (mere) iteration (of an empirically known fact) what should be taken as enjoined (here) is that, if one should desire to live a hundred years, he should live only performing karma, evam^m this manner. tva'yi=[iu regard to you), nare i.e. when you live content to be a mere man. itah i.e., from this present course of performing karma like agnihdtra. anyathd—& different course. 7ia asti=does not exist; in which course evil action does not stain; i.e., you do not get tainted by sin. Wherefore if one should desire for life one should live throughout performing karma such as agnihotra prescribed by the ^astra.


How is it to be understood that the former verse assigns to a sannydsin devotion to knowledge and the latter, only devotion to karma to one incapable of it (Self-realisation) ? We reply: Do you not remember the aforesaid antithesis between jnana and karma which remains unshakable as a mountain? Here also the same has been expressly stated in verses 1 and 2,:that he who seeks to live must perform karma and that he who does not,must give up all desire. The same conclusion may be arrived at) from the (following) directions to sannydsins "He should desire neither for life,nor for death ; he should enter a forest". This is the law." "He should not thence return". The difference in result between the two will also be pointed out ater on. (Another statement of the like import is) "These two paths only appeared in the beginning,the path of activity and (the path) of withdrawal." Of these two, renunciation is higher, cf. Taittirlya Aranyaka "Renunciation alone excelled". And Vyasa, the great Vedic teacher, after much reflection, taught his son definitely as follows, " The Vedas aim at inculcating these two paths,one termed the path of activity and the other, of renunciation." We shall indicate ( in the sequel ) the distinction between these two (paths).


And now the (next) verse is begun in dispraise of the ignorant.


--------------------------------

The understanding of Shankara that any wish other than the wish for Moksha is antithetical to Moksha is even today held high by all advaita followers. The logic of Shankara used to seem odd and jerky to me, till I understood that Brahman is That whose desires are all realised. Moreover, Shushupti also eludes in presence of desire.

So, Shankara held, either there is desire or there is knowledge of Self. In presence of any desire, Karma, as per dharmic prescription, is the only way to remain un-attached. This is what Shri Krishna also teaches when He says: Leave all Dharma and submit to me.

Note that karnidni is the doing as per nidhi.


Other understandings of the verse 2 now seem incomplete to me at least. This is the age old conflict between the believers of Karma Kanda and believers of Jnana Kanda.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

There is no point in arguing on something when you avoid the actual contents of Upanishad and rely on opinions of so and so.


Namaste chandu,

I showed Shankara Bhasya not to argue but since you said that you could not find it. However, as always, I agree with you. There is no point. The actual content of the Upanishad is very simple:


6. He who perceives all beings in the Self alone, and the Self in all beings, does not entertain any hatred on account of that perception.


7. When a man realises that all beings are but the Self, what delusion is there, what grief, to that perceiver of oneness?


Nothing can be simpler. Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté






Nothing can be simpler.


what more can be said ...
praṇām

[chandu_69]

Namaste chandu,

I showed Shankara Bhasya not to argue but since you said that you could not find it.

I am talking About the verse 9 of Upanishad.


However, a
s always, I agree with you. There is no point. The actual content of the Upanishad is very simple:


6. He who perceives all beings in the Self alone, and the Self in all beings, does not entertain any hatred on account of that perception.


7. When a man realises that all beings are but the Self, what delusion is there, what grief, to that perceiver of oneness?


Nothing can be simpler. If one fails to understand this simple thing then only one sees evils all around -- starting with Muslims, then Christians, then Gandhi, and then Shankaracharya. Finally, Hinduism itself may be abandoned?



Non Sequitur. The contentious verse in question is 9.


I am asking for shankara bhashya of the verse in question.Please provide it with authentic reference;

[atanu]

I am talking About the verse 9 of Upanishad.
Non Sequitur. The contentious verse in question is 9.

I am asking for shankara bhashya of the verse in question.Please provide it with authentic reference;


Namaste Chandu,



Do you think that you will appreciate even if I did as you want? Can we not be simple? If we disagree we disagree. So what? The dictum remains:

6. He who perceives all beings in the Self alone, and the Self in all beings, does not entertain any hatred on account of that perception.



7. When a man realises that all beings are but the Self, what delusion is there, what grief, to that perceiver of oneness?
-------------------------------The individual's delusion goes only on knowing the Self but we think that we understand more than sages.

So, first you tell me something. As per Vishistadvaita, the Karma is without beginning (you may check it up). So, is Karma binding on Brahman. If not then why?


Shri Krishna clearly says that Arjuna know that you are not the doer. Yet we all are deluded of our accumulated karma. Why?

Once, you are clear about the above two points, your doubts will automatically vanish.

Om Namah Shivaya

[satay]

Admin Note

namaskar,

I have moved some of your posts to this thread http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4814

Thanks,

[atanu]

Friends,

Below is the evidence that Shri Shankara purported the Isha Upanishad in accordance with shashtra. Shankara, beginning from the second verse of the upanishad holds that the way of karma has to culminate in Jnana, which only grants the ultimate freedom.

Isha

2. By performing karma in this world (as enjoined by the scriptures) should one yearn to live a hundred years. Thus action does not bind thee, the doer. There is no other way than this.
----------------------
Most commentator gloss over the fact that only the rare can live upto hundred and still rarer will be the karmik who can do karma as per nidhi throughout the span of hundred years.

It is Shankara alone, who reinstated the Vedic understanding. Satapatha Brahmana verses follow:

10:2:6:8. Those who pass away in the years below twenty are consigned to the days and nights as their worlds; and those who (pass away) in the years above twenty and below forty, to the half-moons; and those who (pass away) in the (years) above forty and below sixty, to the months; and those who (pass away) in the (years) above sixty and below eighty, to the seasons; and those who (pass away) in the (years) above eighty and below a hundred (are consigned) to the year; and he alone who lives a hundred years or more attains to that immortal (life).

10:2:6:9. Only by many sacrifices, indeed, is a single day, or a single night (of life) gained; and only he who builds the one hundred and one-fold (altar), or he who lives a hundred years, is certain of his attaining to that immortal (life). But he, indeed, builds a one hundred and one-fold (altar) who carries him (Ukhya Agni) for a year: hence one should only build (an altar for) such an (Agni) who has been carried for a year. Thus much as to the deity.

13:2:1:6. But, verily, he who offers the oblations straight away, is liable to fall (pass) right away. He does not go beyond a hundred and one: were he to go beyond a hundred and one, he would deprive the Sacrificer of his vital power. He offers a hundred and one, for man has a life of a hundred (years), and his own self is the one hundred and first:

--------------------

The verses say that only by living for hundred years and carrying out sacrifices throughout one is certain to attain immortal life. But it adds that by doing many sacrifices one day or one night is added to life. The 100 years is specified because it is the life span Prajapti designed for himself.

But the verses further say that by building a fire altar (Breath-Mind) of One hundred and one fold, the sacrificer succeeds. Here again 100 years means one's full life. And the extra one year is for the self.

---------------
10:5:4:16. Regarding this there is this verse--'By knowledge they ascend that (state) where desires have vanished: sacrificial gifts go not thither, nor the fervid practisers of rites without knowledge;'--for, indeed, he who does not know this does not attain to that world either by sacrificial gifts or by devout practices, but only to those who know does that world belong.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Friends,
It is Shankara alone, who reinstated the Vedic understanding. Satapatha Brahmana verses follow:

10:2:6:8. ----- and he alone who lives a hundred years or more attains to that immortal (life).
10:2:6:9. Only by many sacrifices, indeed, is a single day, or a single night (of life) gained; and only he who builds the one hundred and one-fold (altar), or he who lives a hundred years, is certain of his attaining to that immortal (life). But he, indeed, builds a one hundred and one-fold (altar) who carries him (Ukhya Agni) for a year: hence one should only build (an altar for) such an (Agni) who has been carried for a year. Thus much as to the deity.

13:2:1:6. But, verily, he who offers the oblations straight away, is liable to fall (pass) right away. He does not go beyond a hundred and one: were he to go beyond a hundred and one, he would deprive the Sacrificer of his vital power. He offers a hundred and one, for man has a life of a hundred (years), and his own self is the one hundred and first:

Om Namah Shivaya

The above three verses were summarised in the Atmhatya thread as below.



Originally posted by Atanu:
Either one lives for 100 years performing karma as per nidhi.
Or, one sets up a sacrificial altar of 101 fold, including 100 years of possible life and one extra for the self.
The destiny of the person of the first path is determined by the laws of nature automatically. If one does work for 100 years as per the law (nidhi) then one gets moksha. Else the ritam controls the distribution of the fruits of all accumulated work, spread over lives. The second person, when the 101 fold sacrifice is full, attains moksha.

In respect of the latter quote from the thread Atmahatya, Shri Yajvan wrote the following:



Originally posted by yajvan

Can you be so kind as to take us deeper-and-wider ( better understanding, implications, etc) into this knowledge? Perhaps a new post may be in order?

The original subject is present in RV 10.14.8, which speaks of uniting with the good works in heaven and gaining a new purified body.

sa'M gachasva pitR'bhiH sa'M yame'neSTApUrte'na parame' vyo`man /
hitvA'yAvadya'm pu'nar a'stam e'hi sa'M gachasva tanvA` suva'rcAH //8//

Unite with the Fathers, with Yama, unite with [that which you] have
offered and other good works in the highest heaven/
having left behind flaws - come home, unite with your [new] vigorous body.,

We look into Prashna Upanishad for further guidance.


Prashna Upanishad:

I.9. SAMVATSARO VAI PRAJAPATIS TASYAYANE
DKSINAN COTTARAM CA. TAD YE HA VAI TAD
ISTAPURTE KRTAM ITY UPASATE TE CANDRAMASAM
EVA LOKAM ABHIJAYANTE. TA EVA PUNAR
AVARTANTE TASMAD ETA RSAYAH PRAJAKAMA
DAKSINAM PRATI-PRADYANTE. ESA HA VAI RAYIR
YAH PITRYANAH.

The year indeed is Prajapati. This has two ayanas (paths), the Southern and the Northern. So those who devote themselves to sacrifices, constructions (of tanks) and doing (gifts) istapurta-krta) win the world of the Moon : and those alone return (to the world of Birth). Therefore those seers desirous of progeny take up the Southern path. Rayi indeed is that which is the path of the fathers.
isapurte krtam : doing actions such as sacrifices, construction of tanks and giving gifts;

1-10. ATHOTTARENA TAPASA BRAHMACARYENA
SRADDHAYA VIDYANA" TMANAM ANVISYAADIYAM
ABHIJAYANTE. ETAD VAI PRANANAM AYATANAM
ETAD AMRTAM ABHAYAM ETAT PARAYANAM
ETASMAN NA PUNARAVARTANTA ITY ESA
NIRODHAH. TAD ESA SLOKAH.

Then by the northern (path) having sought the self by means of tapas, brahmacarya, faith, knowledge, attain the Sun (Āditya). This is the abode of breaths. This is immortality void of fear. This the supreme goal. From this (the souls) never return. This is the prevention (to return). Regarding this is the verse.

The Prasna Upanisad 1. 9 advises istapurta --Vedic sacrifices (ista ) and charitable work (purta )--for it is by istapurta that the soul enjoys cycle of birth and death and purifies itself. But 1.10 advises the northern path comprising, faith, knowledge of Savitar (Sun), Tapas, and Brahmacharya for immortality.

Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 4. 4. 7 also states that one acheives immortality in the timeless Brahman upon the departure of all material desires--sarve pramucyante kamah. Many ascribe total cessation of sexual activity as Brahmacharya, as a requirement spoken of in Prashna Upanishad. But further in Prashna Upanishad:


I.13. AHORATRO VAI PRAJAPATIS TASYAHAR EVA PRANO
PATRIR EVA RAYIH, PRAAM VA ETE.
PRAKASHANDANTI YA DIVA RATYA SAMYUJYANTE.
BRAHAMACARYAM EVA TAD YAD RATRAV RATYA
SAMYUJYANTE.

The day and night indeed are Prajapati. His day time is breath. His night is rayi. Those who enjoy sexually during day time waste their breath : (whereas) sexual enjoyment during night time is Brahmacarya itself.

The point is that 100 years of penance, austerity, and istapurtam karma does not confer Moksha. But building an altar of fire (a mind joined to Savitar) of 101 fold, including 100 for possible 100 years of life and 1 extra for self, surely confers Moksha. '1' extra is sacrifice of the self. And 100 is sacrifice of the life force. One can be sahaja and need not go through various guilts and remorses, by surrending the self once and for all. Brahmacharya is not total sexual abstinence but abidance of mind in Brahman. Those who fail to comprehend the non-existence of self, need to be the doer of all correct lawful karma.

Hope this post will suit the purpose of explaing Ishtapurtam.

Om Namah Shivaya

[grames]

Is this thread still active.
I would request Yajvan to re-read the whole thread and i want to actually share something about the Verse 9 if he is still interested.

Thanks

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté grames,




Is this thread still active.
I would request Yajvan to re-read the whole thread and i want to actually share something about the Verse 9 if he is still interested.

Thanks

Please feel free to offer your thoughts. I will re-read the thread and will be happy to follow along. The īśāvāsya upaniṣad is one of my favorites.

praṇām

[smaranam]

Namaste all

How did I end up on this thread ? The credit goes to the forum software (similar threads)


the īśāvāsya upaniṣad , 9th śloka informs us of the following:
andhaṁ tamaḥ praviśanti ye avidyām upāsate |
tato bhūya iva te tamo ya u vidyāyṁ ratāḥ ||

Those who worship (upāsana) ignorance (avidyā) enter/move forth (praviśanti) into blind darkness (andha-tamaḥ);
yet ( 'u' or on the other hand) those that delight (ratā or are enamored) with knowledge ( vidyā or vidyāyṁ) in the same manner (iva) fall into or are possessed ( r become i.e. bhūya) by darkness (tamas).

How can this be? How can one that pursues vidyā fall into greater darkness?

Although explanations have been given, here is one that I do not see here or missed :

The one who has knowledge is in darkness if they are proud of their knowledge, in ego over it, and think "I have this knowledge." The clue is in the word "ratah" - they are enamored, delighted but it is somewhat similar to darkness of the ignorant who delights in worldly pleasure because they are engrossed in the glory.

The Isha Upanishad is also warning here of the sattva guNa predominance stage - it can be detrimental if one lets false-ego get in between and are proud of their righteousness. BhagvAn Shri KRshNa also says this and Sant DnyAneshwar elaborates on it in his bhAvArta deepikA a.k.a. DnyAneshwari, a poetic commentary on the Bhagvad Gita.

* For those interested - KRshNa disappeared from among the Gopis when each started getting proud and thinking KRshNa was only hers alone. Then they sang the beautiful Gopi geet and KRshNa appeared in front of them in all His beauty and glory.

praNAm

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté smaranam,


Namaste all

is also warning here of the sattva guNa predominance stage - it can be detrimental if one lets false-ego get in between and are proud of their righteousness.

You offer a finer point here. I see it from a slightly different angle. If pride is sneaking in to this sattva guṇa stage, it suggests a blemish. This blemish is that of rago-guṇa if the pride becomes excessive. Hence, sattva guṇa then is not well established ( as I see it) and one may fall in and out of this most pure state.

praṇām

[smaranam]

Namaste yajvanji

I agree that the 'one' referenced in this verse is not fully established in shuddha sattva , but in a mixture with more of sattva (predominant).

The verse seems to say one who "worships vidyA" or misuses the [just acquired ?] knowledge for sva-pratishThA , false-honor, or lets pride get in, is in darkness. i.e. the stage of total abandonment is not reached because they are hanging on to the ego although they "have" the knowledge towards total abandonment. In MarAThi there is a phrase in this context : "kaLta pan vaLat nahi" "I understand but cannot implement"


Purport to Isha Up. verses 9,10,11 by Swami Paramananda

Those who follow or "worship" the path of selfishness and pleasure (avidyA) without knowing anything higher, necessarily falls into darkness;
but those who worship or cherish VidyA (knowledge) for mere intellectual pride and satisfaction, fall into greater darkness, because the opportunity which they missed is greater.
In the subsequent verses (10,11) vidyA and avidyA are used in the same sense as faith and [nishkAm] karma. Neither alone can lead to the ultimate goal, but when taken together they carry one to the Highest. Work done with unselfish motive purifies the mind enables man to perceive his underlying nature.

REF: Isha verse 9 above - being discussed
Isha 10: By vidyA one end is attainedl by avidyA another. Thus we have heard the wise men speak...
Isha 11: He who knows at the same time both vidyA and avidyA crosses over death by avidyA and attains immortality through vidyA.


praNAm

[Mana]

Namaste All (is it correct to say janatA or viz?)

Thank you for wisdom, already posted in this fascinating yet difficult thread.

I do not have a copy of this beautiful script in Sanskrit, my faith is in Eknath Easwaran's interpretation, which I have at home. I have come to notice a certain shade to his imagery, yet I find his interpretations pleasing.

Is this not a reference to the non dualist state of all. If one is in either extreme, when the universe moves the concentration required to maintain ones posture of black or white, will cause blindness, we will be so concentrated on staying put that we won't see the world move.

I also find this directs my thought toward the manipura cAkra, its function in our interaction with the out side world. Turned too far inwards this lotus will receive no light; we become depressed. When open outwards; if the heart is not well balanced this may become either an anchor or chain; I have friends who tire them selves relentlessly, to the point of physical sickness; driven by the angst of this cAkra, and the thought that it will induce in them should they stop acting, even more blinded than the first example. In fact these cases may often cause the closure of this lotus in others the draining consuming of their prANa. There are other visible emotional actions relating to this function.

A fine balance of these energy's; prANa, can lead to a greater ease in ones consumption of time, ones Journey.


In dark night live those for whom the lord is transcendent only...

The factor of time here to my mind is important... whilst living in a Godless time; To realise god and yet not take action for a better commune.

In darker night still, For whom he is immanent only.

It is darker still for those who hold God only as a mental concept or ideal (idol) without having realised or seen him/her/That as a presence and path.

These two types of devotion in times of darkness join to cross the river together.

To my mind this is a concept depicted also by Ida and Pingala. As such, derived from their root.
Within modern science this is depicted by left or right predominance of thought, and use of brain function. (This can even be related to political thought)
It can apply to a couple in matrimony, to sadguru and ziSya, King Queens advisor's and army's; friends. In true darkness live those to whom the only light might come from war fair; It is in these times that Kings and avatAra manifest by the collective SELF. It is the hour that defines men and women.

All different shades of grey, yet the same humanity and cognition.

For me this verse speaks of extremes and their balance.

On many different levels; meditation on the times of change from Darkness to light, and from Light to darkness, is surly revealing.

I hope you don't feel my interpretation rash, and I look forwards to hearing your thoughts on this. I humbly welcome any suggestion you might have as to other interprets to better aid my understanding.


praNAma

mana

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Namaste yajvanji

The verse seems to say one who "worships vidyA" or misuses the [just acquired ?] knowledge for sva-pratishThA , false-honor, or lets pride get in, is in darkness. i.e. the stage of total abandonment is not reached because they are hanging on to the ego although they "have" the knowledge towards total abandonment. In MarAThi there is a phrase in this context : "kaLta pan vaLat nahi" "I understand but cannot implement"
' I am delighted on being the jñānin' ; as long as one enjoys vidyā, one's level of ahaṁkāra ( the doer ship of 'I' or personal ego) predominates. This distances one from the real spirit of wisdom... this idea is under the authorship of svāmī muni nārāyaṇa prāsad and parallels nicely to what you have written.

Yet this IMHO is a path one finds themselves on ie. the infusion of wisdom over time. Yet at some point we remove the thorn with another thorn and this desire for knowledge is that tool that removes this ignoranace. I have found this to be true i.e. humility follows.

praṇām

[smaranam]

Namaste

I had not seen this post.
Thanks for the subtle points. "I am delighted on being a jnani" is darkness.

How about "ParaBrahman is so beautiful" ?

As long as one internally delights in the parabrahman paramAtmA parameshwar and can externally glorify Him, I do not see any individual darkness in that.

praNAm

[Mana]

Namaste smaranam,

I think that you are quite right, darkness is the lack of light in the material world; light comes also from within. As such it can be found.

However if there is no guide or help, no teaching; no empathetic ears...

So much more light is needed in cold empty space than in a warm environment, in a collective light. In a cold competitive world, many are burntout; transcending the darkness.

praNAma

mana

[smaranam]

Namaste Mana

That is true, "light comes from within" because ParamAtmA is within

"if no guide or help" - you are talking about Guru. But if not, at least sAdhu sang in the meanwhile - association of sAdhus, devotees of the One within.

"more light needed in a cold environment" because the cold env. lacks sAdhu-sang, warm env is warm due to the Lord and His devotees. Association of Lord if not directly, then through a pure devotee, opens the heart buried deep in the material.

Last statement - I suppose you mean "they get burned out in the process of trying to transcend the darkness" Yes, that can happen without the proper association, sanga.

1. Lord Himself
2. Lord's representatives, devotees, disciples of representative
3. Books - words from Him or His representatives.

All these are 'sanga' to keep one on track.

praNAm