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Eastern Mind
23 October 2009, 07:29 AM
You are an immigrant from India or Nepal or Sri Lanka to the US. Your brother is a doctor working in a small town in the midwest. He invites you to come join him there, and somehow you get all the paperwork. Your career is in the restaurant industry, as back home you owned a small roadside restaurant.

Upon arriving, you realise that most of your customers would be meat eaters, and that the likelihood of an Indian vegetarian restaurant being successful is slim to none. You want to stay in the town because for now, you need your brother's moral and financial support. So here is the moral question: Can you serve meat, even though you yourself are a staunch vegetarian?

Aum Namasivaya

devotee
23 October 2009, 11:21 AM
Namaste EM,

I think answer to this dilemma is there in VyAdh Gita where an enlightened person is a butcher & a great saint who had acquired occult powers by his penance, is finally forced to go to learn from him (i.e. the Butcher).

It is there is the Bhagwad Gita too. Arjuna has to decide ... should he fight & kill his own beloved elders & his teacher or accept defeat even though it would be a defeat of righteousness ... what shall he do ? We must do our duty & sometimes the duty may not be what we may otherwise like it to be. All works must be dedicated to Him ... then no karma binds us.

There may be even harder condition. A hard-core vegetarian gets stuck in a place like Tundras where there is no vegetarian food available. Either he eats meat or dies. What shall he do ? What is his Dharma in that situation ? A poor woman who has an hungry & sick child has only two options either earn through prostitution or let the child & herself die ? What is her Dharma in this situation ?

It is our egoism which makes us believe that "I will eat only this & nothing else" ... "I will never do this thing or that" ... etc. The reality is that choices are not always available. I have to live a life that is offered to me & do my best in that.

There is no action which is right or wrong in absolute sense. How we do it makes it right or wrong. Bhagwad Gita gives answer to all dilemmas related with Dharma.

Karmanyakarma yah pashyedakarmani cha karma yah l
sa buddhimAn manushyeshu sa yuktah kritsnakarmakrit ll BG 4.18 ll

He who sees inaction in action and action in inaction, he is wise among men and he is performer of all actions.

Gatasangasya muktasya gyanavasthitchetsah l
yagnyacharatah karma samagram pravilIyate ll BG 4.23 ll

For one who is unattached (to all the things of materialistic nature), who is liberated (no identification with the body and does not claim it as his own) & his mind is fixed in "knowledge", who performs all actions as a sacrifice (Yagnya) (dedicated to God), ; all his actions ( & also its effects) are dissolved.

OM

Ganeshprasad
23 October 2009, 12:22 PM
Pranam EM

Personally I would not, knowing what is involved. I will be hypocrite to say the least.
I personally would try another avenue to make my livelihood, there is no compelling reason for him to serve meat.
This reminds me of a colleague of mine years ago, he was a salvation army man, who as we know are teetotaller and help others in their addiction. Well I used to question his principles, come Christmas he used to get alcohol as gift from suppliers which he would then sell to his mates. Never got an answer.

Jai Shree Krishna

Eastern Mind
23 October 2009, 12:59 PM
There may be even harder condition. A hard-core vegetarian gets stuck in a place like Tundras where there is no vegetarian food available. Either he eats meat or dies. What shall he do ? What is his Dharma in that situation ? A poor woman who has an hungry & sick child has only two options either earn through prostitution or let the child & herself die ? What is her Dharma in this situation ?


Devotee: Your answers that I deleted from this quote were attempting, (probably correctly) to answer ALL moral dilemmas. You're taking away all my ideas, man. lol I'm trying to promote discussion, and there you go answering it all. What would motivate me to continue with the threads? (For those of you who detect any seriousness here, I'm just being sarcastic with Devotee)

The above two are excellent. Personally, I would definitely eat meat. I have no problem with anyone eating meat, (to each his own, who am I to judge?) but especially I have no problem with the Inuit. An even greater one is cannibalism in an airplane crash.

As far as the poor woman goes, the fact she has a child as well makes it a bit different. Personally, although I am in a male body in this lifetime, I obviously cannot easily put those shoes on. But my guess is that I would go into that profession, for the child, but I might try to get 'regs'.

Thanks for the additions.

Aum Namasivaya

Spiritualseeker
23 October 2009, 01:30 PM
Namaste EM,

I think answer to this dilemma is there in VyAdh Gita where an enlightened person is a butcher & a great saint who had acquired occult powers by his penance, is finally forced to go to learn from him (i.e. the Butcher).

It is there is the Bhagwad Gita too. Arjuna has to decide ... should he fight & kill his own beloved elders & his teacher or accept defeat even though it would be a defeat of righteousness ... what shall he do ? We must do our duty & sometimes the duty may not be what we may otherwise like it to be. All works must be dedicated to Him ... then no karma binds us.

There may be even harder condition. A hard-core vegetarian gets stuck in a place like Tundras where there is no vegetarian food available. Either he eats meat or dies. What shall he do ? What is his Dharma in that situation ? A poor woman who has an hungry & sick child has only two options either earn through prostitution or let the child & herself die ? What is her Dharma in this situation ?

It is our egoism which makes us believe that "I will eat only this & nothing else" ... "I will never do this thing or that" ... etc. The reality is that choices are not always available. I have to live a life that is offered to me & do my best in that.

There is no action which is right or wrong in absolute sense. How we do it makes it right or wrong. Bhagwad Gita gives answer to all dilemmas related with Dharma.

Karmanyakarma yah pashyedakarmani cha karma yah l
sa buddhimAn manushyeshu sa yuktah kritsnakarmakrit ll BG 4.18 ll

He who sees inaction in action and action in inaction, he is wise among men and he is performer of all actions.

Gatasangasya muktasya gyanavasthitchetsah l
yagnyacharatah karma samagram pravilIyate ll BG 4.23 ll

For one who is unattached (to all the things of materialistic nature), who is liberated (no identification with the body and does not claim it as his own) & his mind is fixed in "knowledge", who performs all actions as a sacrifice (Yagnya) (dedicated to God), ; all his actions ( & also its effects) are dissolved.

OM

Beautiful response devotee. Your post also shows that all can be enlightened even a butcher. My wife read me an interesting quote in a Tibetan Dream Yoga book in which the lama said that some people say that we should eat only vegetarian, the muslims say we should eat all but pork, and in some parts of india it is said not to eat beef. He said these are all concepts of our mind.

I dont mean that it isnt productive to be vegetarian, but I think this goes along with you speaking about it is our EGO that says "I will always just eat this or that". It is a lot of time self righteous or just aimed because they want enlightenment. So they say I will not eat any sentient being and by doing this great merit I will be liberated. But he or she falls in the trap of their own ego by using their egoic calculations.

OM

devotee
23 October 2009, 11:24 PM
Namaste EM,


For those of you who detect any seriousness here, I'm just being sarcastic with Devotee

I like friendly sarcasms, EM ! :)

OM

sm78
24 October 2009, 05:16 AM
You are an immigrant from India or Nepal or Sri Lanka to the US. Your brother is a doctor working in a small town in the midwest. He invites you to come join him there, and somehow you get all the paperwork. Your career is in the restaurant industry, as back home you owned a small roadside restaurant.

Upon arriving, you realise that most of your customers would be meat eaters, and that the likelihood of an Indian vegetarian restaurant being successful is slim to none. You want to stay in the town because for now, you need your brother's moral and financial support. So here is the moral question: Can you serve meat, even though you yourself are a staunch vegetarian?

Aum Namasivaya

One has to what one has to do in order to survive, that ovious and beyond doubt. However taking this "hypothetical" question a step back ...

You own a road side restaurant in an Indian town. You have taken over the business from your father who faught hard to start and establish the business and was able to provide modern education to your brother and you. Your brother being a brilliant student found an oppertunity in the west for higer education. With passage of time he settled there, while you continued with your father's profession which was enough for your needs. Now your brother gives you this offer to come and stay with him in US and start the business there ... what do you do?

In 99.99% cases the answer is to promptly immigrate. And after one has done this immigration, all this non-sensical pretention of having to maintain one's religion in the alien land comes to picture.

You had sufficient to cover your need here, but what can we do about the unquenching greed? Thought of swa dharma, doing one's duty - what ever it may cost(gita) never came into the picture at that point. Now once you are US for your hunger of $$$, you can so easily see the logic of Gita to get around the dielemma around serving meat!

This is the state of sanatana dharma and its practioners ... lesser said the better. At least have courage to admit your inabilities and stop this pretention around religion.

sm78
24 October 2009, 05:39 AM
This topics brings to mind a similar question being posted in another forum. It was aptly replied by another poster. I quote that correspondence here:-


When we were living abroad, I used be reluctant to offer to ambaa certain
fruits not native to India like Mangostein ( not sure of spelling ), straw
berries,black berries, cherries,snake fruit,Avacados,a fruit looking just like
tomatoes (native of pakistan )which sometimes used to be brought by friends. Can
these fruits be offered or are there any restrictions.

Also I would like to know the sanskrit name for Cashew,pista, badam etc (dry
fruits ) and are there any restrictions for offering certain dry friuts which
are not native to India.



This sort of shaucha niyamas & achara dharma of whether to offer *foreign*
fruits to Mother did not arise when we are earning *foreign* currencies in
dollars; breathing *foreign* oxygen; enjoying *foreign* luxuries etc. Suddenly
we are reminded of our achara dharma when it comes to offer seasonal fruits to
Mother Divine which i would say a sheer hypocricy and a show off of our
*pseudo-brahminism*. Please excuse me for my harsh tone here.

Nityotsava prescribes the *disposable* twiks. One should brush the teeth with
*Vanaspati Sukta* and go to the river, perform sankalpa by chanting
*Aghamarshana Sukta* by offering the Arghya and
perform a ritualistic bath with Mula Vidya.

I am sorry to say that our day of Srividya Upasana starts with Colgate Paste /
Tooth Brush is whose usage is Ucchista. Then a cup of coffee (*kalau coffee
prANah says my gurunatha.....).
Ritual of bath with municipal stale water that too in a couple of seconds;
Sandhya vandana thrown to winds with a maximum gayatri japa of 10. Then all the
mula mantras of dasa mahavidyas
alongwith purva / uttaranga (a min. of 10). Mahapaduka / Guru Traya / Maha
Shodasi / Nirvana Sundari blah blah ......... (a min. of 10). Navavarana
Archana .....20 minutes...
By 9:00 AM entire Srividya Upasana is over, and off to Office. Once we land in
office, we lay our heads at the feet of our boss who could be a drunkard / chain
smoker / a corrupt official.

THIS IS NOT SRIVIDYA UPASANA, I AM SORRY.

C'mon, let us shrug off pseudo-brahminism and be bold enough to confess that we
are *nothing* before the Divine Sport of Mother.

Let us enjoy the divine lilas of Mother thank Her for giving this wonderful
human life filled with the *least traces* of bhakti at her Feet.

Ganeshprasad
24 October 2009, 07:58 AM
Pranam SM


One has to what one has to do in order to survive, that ovious and beyond doubt. However taking this "hypothetical" question a step back ...


This is the state of sanatana dharma and its practioners ... lesser said the better. At least have courage to admit your inabilities and stop this pretention around religion.

thank you could not agree with you more.

enlightened person even a butcher, whatever next the victim's salvation, surely dying in the hands of enlightened must ensure the moksa.

Where do we draw the line in case of butcher, just the animals or can he butcher humans as well?

What about rapist or a muderer can he aslo read Gita verse and claim inaction in action or are we just deluding ourself?

sure to each to their own, but is everything Dharma?

Let us not pretend as SM puts it.

Lord Krishna says
tasmac chastram pramanam te
karyakarya-vyavasthitau
jnatva sastra-vidhanoktam
karma kartum iharhasi

Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what should be done and what should not be done. You should perform your duty following the scriptural injunction. (16.24)

Ghana kamana gati

Jai Shree Krishna

Eastern Mind
24 October 2009, 08:18 AM
One has to what one has to do in order to survive, that ovious and beyond doubt. However taking this "hypothetical" question a step back ...



sm78: Yes, I like your answers and contribution to this discussion. But I need to point out that the above could be misunderstood. Sometimes one has to sacrifice himself for the greater good. If you can protect your family or your country by such sacrifice, then that is the dharma. As a school teacher, it was my duty, in case of a fire, to make sure all the kids got out first. If I were to follow the above quote literally, I'd be the first out the window. (alternate fire escape)

Aum Namasivaya

ScottMalaysia
27 October 2009, 02:00 AM
There is no reason why he would have to start a restaurant. He could go into another career. Or he could open a vegetarian restaurant that serves fake meat (tofu or mushroom that tastes like meat).

I would not serve meat. I would not cut it up or buy it at all. Manu Smriti states that the one who kills the animal, the one who buys it, the one who cuts it up and the one who eats it all commit the same sin.