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satay
27 March 2006, 09:58 AM
I think secularism is a slow poison that is going to kill our generations to come. It is going to destroy our culture, our way of life and our way of worshipping Bhagwan. But I don't believe Hindutva the way it is being portrayed by some organizations is the answer! Their 'militant' way is only going to leave our young generations scared and think of them as some sort of gundas. A gentler more friendly approach has to be adopted.

satay

Eternal Law
27 March 2006, 01:17 PM
What do you think of RSS? Is it militant?

satay
27 March 2006, 01:39 PM
What do you think of RSS? Is it militant?

I think the focus should be on parchar of dharma and not to worry about silly issues like valentine's day or such things.

Don't you agree? While the shiv sena make themselves look like gundas and loose all support of the younger generation...the malecchas are laughing at this all the while buying more converts into their cults.

satay

Eternal Law
27 March 2006, 02:24 PM
Yes i agree but there is very big difference between RSS and Shivsena mentality.

The RSS and the VHP are well-oiled think-tanks, and they have a sophisticated, well-organized machinery reaching right down to the village level and that's what Hindus need today. They are the biggest resistance to Christian aggression in India. Afterall, RSS is biggest organization of it's kind anywhere in this world and now have organizations in many countries which are working under it's recognisation.

devisarada
28 March 2006, 08:29 AM
Namaste Satay,

I agree that secularism is an insidious destroyer of culture. I cannot speak for India, having never been there, but here in Canada, where our population is so diverse, especially in the big cities, it appears to be the only acceptable compromise. (Although not one I am comfortable with)

Do you propose that India become a Hindu country, just as Israel is an Jewish country, and Pakistan is a Muslim country? It might work, considering the broad scope of Hinduism and the innate open mindedeness and tolerance for many different points of view.

I believe there is nothing wrong with Christians joining in Diwali celebrations, Hindus in Christmas services, or in everyone celebrating Eid and Hanukkah.

Perhaps my ideas are naive and Utopian. but I believe inclusion is the only way to go. We should all practice our own religion, but be open to sharing our celebrations with everyone who wishes to do so. As far as I can see, Hindus already do that.

Christians, on the other hand, will only welcome you if they see you as a potential convert, otherwise, you are excluded.

Many Muslims also seem to feel that by including non-believers, they are somehow defiling their sacred practices.

Exclusion, in this global village of ours, can only lead to greater distrust and animosity. The secular approach of not having any public celebrations (unless, of course there is money to be made) will, in my view eventually turn us all into amoral automatons.

"Tat twam asi" as far as I know, has no exceptions or conditions.

The old British doctrine of "Divide and Conquer" has been so assimilated that it will probably take centuries (if we even have that much time) to have a truly inclusive but diverse global society.

Namo Narayana
28 March 2006, 09:23 AM
Yes i agree but there is very big difference between RSS and Shivsena mentality.

The RSS and the VHP are well-oiled think-tanks, and they have a sophisticated, well-organized machinery reaching right down to the village level and that's what Hindus need today. They are the biggest resistance to Christian aggression in India. Afterall, RSS is biggest organization of it's kind anywhere in this world and now have organizations in many countries which are working under it's recognisation.

Quite true. RSS and VHP are no joke. they are very organised and very professional. Shiva sena started with attacking gujaratis in maharashtra. it didnt work and they started attacking south indians in maharashtra but still dint work. i wont give them a thumbs up. it will be shabby to compare them with RSS.

But RSS has not penetrated well in south india. that needs to be done to be more effective. they have to find pockets of support to start with and take visibility in hindu procession. they did a fine job in sankaracharya matter.

satay
28 March 2006, 02:33 PM
namaste devi,
Thank you for the post.
Why is it that your posts make me 'think'? :) It reminds me of one of OSHO's books, in it, someone asks OSHO something along the same lines and he answers, "My answers are like hammers...I will hammer your every thought until you become thoughtless!" or something along those lines....

You devi, are you trying to make me thoughtless?:D



Namaste Satay,

I agree that secularism is an insidious destroyer of culture. I cannot speak for India, having never been there, but here in Canada, where our population is so diverse, especially in the big cities, it appears to be the only acceptable compromise. (Although not one I am comfortable with)


I live in canada and I see what you are saying. I love it that it is a 'melting pot' but at the same time, I feel sometimes that the 'it is my canada' kind of thinking is lacking here. Normally, I see that most people remain in their groups and don't identify themselves as 'canadians' first. Don't you feel the same?




Do you propose that India become a Hindu country, just as Israel is an Jewish country, and Pakistan is a Muslim country?

No! To the contrary, India has 'always' been a country that has been a good host to all religions. From the jews to the buddhists India has been and will remain home to all religions of the world. That is part of India and I certainly don't want to see it changed! What to say of this nation that has a Sikh Prime Minister (backed by an Italian christian!), a Muslim President and hindus in the opposition party? :)

What I want and most Indians want is a stop to the discrimination of hindus and hinduism in the country. The country that identifies itself as "Hindustan" shows nothing but discrimination for its majority. Yes, Hindus have always been good host to minorities and other religions but how are we being paid back? Not with some gratitude which is well deserved and earned but with more discrimination and more propaganda by those who are ready to please some minorities.

Hindus in general have become cowards and pacifists in every sense of the word. This is a 'gift' we inherited from our rulers and our buddhist friends. It is very evident here in the west where hindus in general shy away from all religious matters when it comes to public image. The new generation has been fed this propaganda that hinduism is old and useless, that we are nothing but a bunch of idol worshippers.

I don't understand why we have to put up with the aggression of any religion doesn't matter which piece of land we are talking about on the world map.




I believe there is nothing wrong with Christians joining in Diwali celebrations, Hindus in Christmas services, or in everyone celebrating Eid and Hanukkah.

That's another thing we have in common then! As you may know, my wife is a christian and we celebrate holidays of both religions!



Perhaps my ideas are naive and Utopian. but I believe inclusion is the only way to go. We should all practice our own religion, but be open to sharing our celebrations with everyone who wishes to do so. As far as I can see, Hindus already do that.

That is spoken like a true Hindu. Inclusion, yes, Sanatana Dharma is the only one that answers this call of 'inclusion'.



Christians, on the other hand, will only welcome you if they see you as a potential convert, otherwise, you are excluded.

Many Muslims also seem to feel that by including non-believers, they are somehow defiling their sacred practices.



They have their concepts as we do ours. I just wish that they adopt the "live and let live" mantra of life which is needed right now in this little world of ours, otherwise, it is going to be good for our children.



Exclusion, in this global village of ours, can only lead to greater distrust and animosity. The secular approach of not having any public celebrations (unless, of course there is money to be made) will, in my view eventually turn us all into amoral automatons.

"Tat twam asi" as far as I know, has no exceptions or conditions.

The old British doctrine of "Divide and Conquer" has been so assimilated that it will probably take centuries (if we even have that much time) to have a truly inclusive but diverse global society.

I couldn't have said it better myself!

satay

devisarada
28 March 2006, 10:12 PM
Namaste Satay,


I live in canada and I see what you are saying. I love it that it is a 'melting pot' but at the same time, I feel sometimes that the 'it is my canada' kind of thinking is lacking here. Normally, I see that most people remain in their groups and don't identify themselves as 'canadians' first. Don't you feel the same?

I believe that it is the US of A that is called a melting pot. We in Canada call our society a "Cultural Mosaic" I have even heard it being referred to as a "Crazy Quilt" This demonstrates that most Canadians do remain in their own groups and do not venture outside of them. Which is a damned (am I allowed to use that word?) shame. I live in Toronto where there is such a beautiful rainbow of people. I lived 3 hours drive away from the city for about 10 months in a WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) community. Externally, I fit in really well amongst all of those blue-eyed pale faces. What surprised me was their smug, holier than thou attitude, and their condescending approach to minorities. I was amazed at the relief and joy I felt, when after 10 months, I came back to the city and saw all these wonderful diverse people. So yes, I see Ukrainians sticking with Ukrainians, Italians with Italians, English with English, Scotts with Scotts, etc. However, I do have a sense that the younger generation might be starting to change some of that. We are seeing quite a few inter-racial/religious marriages in our own extended family, including mine, of course.




What I want and most Indians want is a stop to the discrimination of hindus and hinduism in the country.

Then Hindus in India and elswhere should stop this so-called political correctness and develop some backbone. (I hope that I am not sounding glib, but aren't Hindus the majority in India?)


Hindus in general have become cowards and pacifists in every sense of the word. This is a 'gift' we inherited from our rulers and our buddhist friends. It is very evident here in the west where hindus in general shy away from all religious matters when it comes to public image.

There are many Hindus here in the West who seem to be ashamed of their religion. My husband, for example, did not light diyas outside on Diwali, because he did not want the neighbours to know we are Hindu.:o (I eventually convinced him otherwise.)


The new generation has been fed this propaganda that hinduism is old and useless, that we are nothing but a bunch of idol worshippers.

I see this in our own extended family. It's difficult to get the young ones involved, they seem to be embarrassed by the "foreignness" of our culture. But they will eventually see that trying to "blend in" is futile. That, at least has been my experience. But then, I have never shyed away from telling people where I come from and who I am. I quite often wear a sari or a shalwar kameez when I'm out shopping. It get's people thinking! And I haven't heard a negative comment yet!


I don't understand why we have to put up with the aggression of any religion doesn't matter which piece of land we are talking about on the world map.

We shouldn't have to. Laws that have teeth should be implemented and enforced to severely curtail proselytizing. I also believe that a robust campaign to re-instill the pride in their heritage is needed for all Hindus both in India and the Diaspora. Hindus are more self-effacing than Canadians, if that's possible! We need to get away from this engrained colonialism, and stop turning to step-mother Britannia for validation. We must remember that Hindu civilization was far more advanced than any others. The Egyptians were not yet even dreaming about the pyramids when the Vedas were first handed down.


That's another thing we have in common then! As you may know, my wife is a christian and we celebrate holidays of both religions!

So do my husband and I. His father was Hindu, and his mother was brought up as a Catholic/Hindu (does this happen only in the West Indies?) And although I am now Hindu, I have such fond memories of celebrations in my childhood, that I would not give them up.


That is spoken like a true Hindu. Inclusion, yes, Sanatana Dharma is the only one that answers this call of 'inclusion'.

That is one of the main reasons that I became a Hindu.


They have their concepts as we do ours. I just wish that they adopt the "live and let live" mantra of life which is needed right now in this little world of ours, otherwise, it is going to be good for our children.

But then, they would have to put their own house in order first. Would you believe that I once overheard a fundamentalist Christian couple saying about a Catholic priest: "Is he a Christian?" "No, he's Catholic!":confused:

To sum it all up, Satay, I believe that this global village is in great danger.
We as Hindus, if we stopped apologizing for our existence, and instead, took pride in our heritage, and led by firm example, could become the role models that other nations would envy. (Only someone with a Germanic grammatical background, can come up with a sentence so full of subordinate clauses!;) )

In the words of Swami Vivekananda "...if anybody dreams of the exclusive survival of his own religion and the destruction of others, I pity him from the bottom of my heart..."

Well, it seems my verbosity has gotten the better of me once again. I'd better stop here.... for now.

Sudarshan
29 March 2006, 09:29 AM
I think secularism is a slow poison that is going to kill our generations to come. It is going to destroy our culture, our way of life and our way of worshipping Bhagwan. But I don't believe Hindutva the way it is being portrayed by some organizations is the answer! Their 'militant' way is only going to leave our young generations scared and think of them as some sort of gundas. A gentler more friendly approach has to be adopted.

satay

To be honest, both "pseudo secular" Hindus and "non secular" Christians and Muslims have been a big boon to the world. Without them, there is very little entertainment for the rest of the world. Just imagine a world without any fighting, any abusing , no media news etc. The world is a colorful place now, thanks to these people.
:)

Gill Harley
29 March 2006, 12:08 PM
Hi everyone, I'm new to this discussion board. I'm a 50-year-old woman who lives in the UK and I have been doing my best to follow the spiritual path, in one form or another, ever since my 20s.

Where I'm at now is in following the 'sanathana dharma' as laid down in the Vedas. This predates Hinduism or any other religion. In fact, I believe it's where most of the major religions spring from, although in a very much watered down and, in some cases, corrupted form.

To me, the sanathana dharma is a universal path that doesn't call for anyone to change their religion. Being brought up in the West, I was originally a Christian, and now that I know where the religion came from, I can enjoy passages from the Bible because I can see the root of the stories. i can equally enjoy the Bhagavad Gita...

The story of Adam and Eve, for example, imho, is just a watered down version, and altered to fit the local circumstances, of the well known Vedic story of Atma and Jiva, the two birds in the pipalla tree (similar to apple tree, as you can see). It is obviously a story about man becoming trapped into dualistic thinking, and nothing to do with sex and 'original sin' as many Christians, post Augustine, would have us think. The theme of him eating the apple from the tree of good and evil is a symbol for him descending into the lower state of consciousness (in some cultures sacred stories, the underworld) which is ruled by good and evil and other such dualities.

One of the books I've found to be most helpful in decoding the symbolism in the Rig-veda is the Secret of the Veda by Sri Aurobindo. After I studied this brilliant work, it was easy to spot the same pattern and similarities of thought in other religions and realise that they must, at one time, have all come from the same source or stories.

So this is just a long, rambling and round-about way (for which I apologise!) for saying that I don't believe that it's necessary for people to change their religion, or even adopt one. What they do need to change, in my view, is their hearts - and then all the rest will make sense to them.

Namo Narayana
29 March 2006, 02:14 PM
What to say of this nation that has a Sikh Prime Minister (backed by an Italian christian!), a Muslim President and hindus in the opposition party?

Satay, you left onething backed by an italian christian with lot of backboneless MPs ......

I think it is like a brainwash saying " hey you know what , you hindus are so tolerant, so secular, so and so BS " and reduce hindus minority in India.

DeviSarada, India is always land of hindus, buddhists, jains, sikhs no doubt about it. there are also zoraostrians and jews who never caused trouble. they added only glamour and shine. where as christians converted and islamists converted thru war.... they will be hardly welcome in Bharatam

satay
29 March 2006, 04:09 PM
Satay, you left onething backed by an italian christian with lot of backboneless MPs ......

I think it is like a brainwash saying " hey you know what , you hindus are so tolerant, so secular, so and so BS " and reduce hindus minority in India.

DeviSarada, India is always land of hindus, buddhists, jains, sikhs no doubt about it. there are also zoraostrians and jews who never caused trouble. they added only glamour and shine. where as christians converted and islamists converted thru war.... they will be hardly welcome in Bharatam

Everyone including the hindus forget that 'denouncing intolerance is not intolerance!' and in fact, putting up with intolerance is cowardice!

satay

Vajradhara
31 March 2006, 11:07 AM
Namaste all,

interesting discussion.

i suppose that i would have to conclude that my view is very different than what has been espoused thus far for i am in favor of a secular society :)

what i mean by this is that, in my view, a society which contains a broad mix of beings and religious views is more well served by a government which does not promote or endorse a particular religious view point than by a government which promotes one religous view as the "official" view.

any ideology held too strongly can warp the natural goodness which humans exhibit, in my opinion, especially when displays of ones religious conviction results in harm to another.

quite frankly, in my opinion, what is killing society isn't secularism, it is cronyism and favoritism coupled with a righteous zeal which renders the critical mental faculties inoperative and undercuts any sense of human compassion.

metta,

~v

Namo Narayana
01 April 2006, 09:44 PM
Vajra, I would be called unsecular if I did not let a zoroaster or a jew to live in peace. I wouldnt be called unsecular if I check the religious crime and social crime of an evangelist say christian and muslim. as simple as that.

if you recognise Santa dharma, buddha dharma, jain, sikh as different religion. I can very well convince that India is supremely secular not to mention zoraostrians and jews. makes sense ?

willie
02 April 2006, 09:46 PM
It might not be as bad as you make it out. What is the alternative to a secular state? Fighting berween religions and open warfare?

In a society where things are open and several religions exist at the same time an interesting thing happens. They all change some and adopt some of the others ideas. And from this blending something different come about. The only ones that don't like this are the diehard fundamentalists and those who think they are the only path.

In this modern world it is not possible to not have a secular situation, peopke have learned from the past what the other way did to those in the past.

Singhi Kaya
03 April 2006, 01:22 PM
It might not be as bad as you make it out. What is the alternative to a secular state? Fighting berween religions and open warfare?

In a society where things are open and several religions exist at the same time an interesting thing happens. They all change some and adopt some of the others ideas. And from this blending something different come about. The only ones that don't like this are the diehard fundamentalists and those who think they are the only path.

In this modern world it is not possible to not have a secular situation, peopke have learned from the past what the other way did to those in the past.

Let me assure you the weaker will change and adopt the other ideas. Secularism works well in west for variety of reasons and probably for the best. For if west again turns politically christian again they will go back 500 years into place where they were worse than current day muslims.
In India where barbarians have rulled us for a thousand years and we have lost the essence of our own dharma. In India secularism does no good to our culture and self-respect and has become a tool of the oppressors of hindu-dharma. Indian hindus my friend suffers collectively from stockholm syndrome. Secularism makes no sense here, but it will make no sense anywhere where there is an dharmic alternative. If west was buddhist, secularism should be flushed down the drain.

Singhi Kaya
03 April 2006, 01:39 PM
Namaste all,

interesting discussion.

i suppose that i would have to conclude that my view is very different than what has been espoused thus far for i am in favor of a secular society :)

what i mean by this is that, in my view, a society which contains a broad mix of beings and religious views is more well served by a government which does not promote or endorse a particular religious view point than by a government which promotes one religous view as the "official" view.

any ideology held too strongly can warp the natural goodness which humans exhibit, in my opinion, especially when displays of ones religious conviction results in harm to another.

quite frankly, in my opinion, what is killing society isn't secularism, it is cronyism and favoritism coupled with a righteous zeal which renders the critical mental faculties inoperative and undercuts any sense of human compassion.

metta,

~v
Dear buddhist friend,

I understand from your standpoint talk here may sound quite intolerant!
I respect your viewpoint. I can't argue for you. You dharma is upto you.

For hindu's the case is different. Our dharma stresses on what is dharmic-duty far above ahimsa or peace or metta. Depending on the context our duty can be extremely violent to extremely non-violent. Going through gita as is will make things clear for you. And what is dharmic duty? , you may ask. In one word, if it can be said in one word, it is called "asura nidhan" - slaying the asuras. To know what / who are asuras you need to study the "dev-asur sampad bibhag yog" in Gita. In other words fight what is just or true (satya). Talking other's life or loosing one's own is of no importance in this dharmic war. Such rules apply to selfish work aimed at personal benefit. Sri Krishna inspired Arjuna to slay his own people, simply because that was justice. All our avatras are called avatars (including buddha who removed the dominance of the priestly class) because their work is directly related to asur nidhan (may not be physical slaying in all cases).

So not tolerating Islamicists or evangelists is the dharma for a hindu - far above ahimsa, because they display all characteristics of asurik development. Islam is clinic book.

In this post I have made it more clear http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=575#post575

Singhi Kaya
03 April 2006, 04:38 PM
Yes i agree but there is very big difference between RSS and Shivsena mentality.

The RSS and the VHP are well-oiled think-tanks, and they have a sophisticated, well-organized machinery reaching right down to the village level and that's what Hindus need today. They are the biggest resistance to Christian aggression in India. Afterall, RSS is biggest organization of it's kind anywhere in this world and now have organizations in many countries which are working under it's recognisation.

Ahm...RSS is hardly any blocade to any aggreation whatsoever. They are not rooted in dharma after BJP came to power has been corrupted to root. I don't say this out my mind - I have some real experience with the organisation.

Stopping christian missionaries from converting - largely individual effort of few men here and there who for lack of any other organisation are loosely affiliated to the sangha. Soon they take some step dangerous, sangha will disown them.

I have no special contempt for that organisation, but I know people who have destroyed thier youth to do something for the country to find out the path goes nowhere. This hindutva movement wasted a not-so-trivial hindu uprising by not being rooted in dharma. Big tasks cannot be sustained by emotion and spirit of nationalism.

Just my 2 pence.

willie
03 April 2006, 09:27 PM
Strange that even in roman times the romans has a somewhat secular empire. So going backwards to that time would give us the same thing that exists now.
Strange I have not heard this sort of talk before, I have heard a lot of hindu ideas that have been expressed by christian and others. Living in an area where there are hindus, christians, moslems, bahais and a handful of other religions. All existing together with no conflict. Only the socalled leaders of these groups worry about people comming together and putting them out of a job.

Namo Narayana
03 April 2006, 10:26 PM
Willie, India has been secular for many centuries. but we are against only christian missionaries who convert and islamists who use terror.

dont blindly trust anyone. if you want to know how weak muslims are , visit this site (http://www.faithfreedom.org) to find out more about moslem faith.

willie
04 April 2006, 09:54 PM
Since I have heard of no open warfare in india, I don't see what more you could want. I think the problem is that when some people choose to go to some other view of god ,others get nervous. Thinking that the religion is crumbling and that it will collapse and be swept into the dustbin of history.

The problem with islam is that there is not moderate version of it. You have to be a true believer or you are in trouble, go by strange rules or get out and be killed. If here was a branch of islam that did not require this total following of rules that make no sense, I would think that most of the followers would breath a sigh of relief and go over to it.

In the future I see religion as fading away or combining into one religion. The getter communications get and the faster travel is possible something has to give. You have to learn ot live with others and they have to learn to live with you.

satay
06 April 2006, 02:28 PM
In the future I see religion as fading away or combining into one religion.

No, I don't think so. I think that religion has already faded away! In fact, it has faded away to enough degree that now people are feeling the need for spirituality especially here in the west. Don't you think?



You have to learn ot live with others and they have to learn to live with you.

And that is precisely the message of hinduism: Live and let live.

satay

Vajradhara
06 April 2006, 02:51 PM
Namaste Namo,

thank you for the post.


Vajra, I would be called unsecular if I did not let a zoroaster or a jew to live in peace.


is this a statement or a question?

i wouldn't call you "unsecular" if you did not let a Jew live in peace, i would call you a bigot.

those things are not the same.



I wouldnt be called unsecular if I check the religious crime and social crime of an evangelist say christian and muslim. as simple as that.


crime has nothing to do with being secular or not, in my view. crime is crime is crime. i would, of course, agree that what a society may choose to call a crime can and is influenced by the various religous and political groups that exist within its national boundaries.



if you recognise Santa dharma, buddha dharma, jain, sikh as different religion.


indeed, this is my view.



I can very well convince that India is supremely secular not to mention zoraostrians and jews. makes sense ?

it would make sense if that is what secular meant, however, that is not what it means. secular does not mean religious tolerance and pluralism, in my view, it means to indicate the lack thereof.

metta,

~v

Vajradhara
06 April 2006, 03:02 PM
Namaste Singhi Kaya,

thank you for the post.


Dear buddhist friend,

I understand from your standpoint talk here may sound quite intolerant!


perhaps, but that is not my view and it doesn't seem relevant to the topic of the OP.... perhaps i'm missing it...?



I respect your viewpoint. I can't argue for you. You dharma is upto you.


well, indeed, this is so.



For hindu's the case is different.


naturally :) if they weren't different, they would be the same! ;)



Our dharma stresses on what is dharmic-duty far above ahimsa or peace or metta. Depending on the context our duty can be extremely violent to extremely non-violent.


indeed, this is so.



Going through gita as is will make things clear for you. And what is dharmic duty? , you may ask.


i wouldn't ask, actually, but i'm happy to have your view on it.



In one word, if it can be said in one word, it is called "asura nidhan" - slaying the asuras. To know what / who are asuras you need to study the "dev-asur sampad bibhag yog" in Gita.


did you know that Buddha Dharma also teaches about Asuras?



In other words fight what is just or true (satya). Talking other's life or loosing one's own is of no importance in this dharmic war.


indeed, this view would not be supportable through a Buddhist point of view.



Such rules apply to selfish work aimed at personal benefit.


such a notion necessarily requires that one have a self to work for. since Buddhists do not hold that such a thing exists, this isn't much of a concern for us :)



So not tolerating Islamicists or evangelists is the dharma for a hindu - far above ahimsa, because they display all characteristics of asurik development. Islam is clinic book.

in so doing, one makes it clear that there is no difference between them and their oppressors.

whilst it is certainly of value to pass legislation preventing unethical conversions and other manipulative techniques used by the Maleccha religions, that does not mean that we Dharma adherents, must use their methods to refute them.

i would posit, in fact, that we must use other methods, to clearly distinguish the Dharma from the other traditions so as to provide clear and compelling testimony concerning the transformative power of Dharma.

metta,

~v

Singhi Kaya
06 April 2006, 04:12 PM
Hari Om


did you know that Buddha Dharma also teaches about Asuras?
No! But I don't think it is as pivotal as in hinduism (spl Gita and the Chaandi)




indeed, this view would not be supportable through a Buddhist point of view.
I know that:)




such a notion necessarily requires that one have a self to work for. since Buddhists do not hold that such a thing exists, this isn't much of a concern for us ... yes very difficult to argue there. I know from experience, so won't even try!:)




in so doing, one makes it clear that there is no difference between them and their oppressors. That's our moha in mind. You are attaching yourself to an concept in your mind as how ahimsha will appear and talking decesions. On contrary decesions should be solely based on justice and truth - Satya. And one has inherent abhay (fearlessness) and teja(feeling of vengieance that natuarally arises when we see injustice, not to be confused with krodha or anger) if one desires to invoke them. This is crux and hall mark of the Gita. What you just said is where Arjuna had roughly positioned himself before the war. And where he ended was terrible if viewed from such pre-convictions in mind. A hindu has to do what is his duty. And slaying the asuras comes foremost-though we have forgotten this for a long time. But all our epic, all our puranas and our chaandi and our Gita and even the vedas is just about it. As Arjua (in this forum) said in the veg thread, there is no himsha or ahimsha in nature. It's in our mind. Ahimsha is a high virtue for the ego (cleverly avoided the word self :))...before duty it is non-issue.

The only reason why I'm a hindu is perhaves contained in the above paragraph. We strive to develop all the divine qualities inour character (not ahimsha only), but attach to none. In krishna's refuge I'm being assured that if required killing can become the greatest dharma.


whilst it is certainly of value to pass legislation preventing unethical conversions and other manipulative techniques used by the Maleccha religions, that does not mean that we Dharma adherents, must use their methods to refute them.

i would posit, in fact, that we must use other methods, to clearly distinguish the Dharma from the other traditions so as to provide clear and compelling testimony concerning the transformative power of Dharma.

metta,

~v
If you have any idea about India you will know such things don't work here. this is suppossedly hindu majority society but govt every day takes a legislation to destroy our society and coax the islamicists for a few votes. Just yesterday a proposal was passed to saise reservation for SC/ST/OBC to 50% in all govt education institutions. Each day politicians play on caste card and divide our society. Each day for a few petty votes they sell our country to the mlecchas. When faced before the asura no other but only shaktibad works. If you take one policy of weakness (like live and let live), they wil finish you (ofcourse in due time when they have the power). In past 1400 years muslims have only eaten into our society. They haven't ever taken a step back. And why should they before such weakling like us who in order to reflect positively on ahimsha on themselves neglect their duty's. Mahashakti/Devi Maa rides on Lion. It needs lion hearted men to truely resurrect the spirit of our dharma. Till then what ever lofty philosophy we speak or mystic sadhana we talk about, we are actually walking the path of disaster. Bengal is a classic example. The seat of tantrik sadhana is soon to follow the kashmir way (kashmir btw was another seat of lofty tantrik sadhana). All our siddhas have failed to be krisna, inspire us to fight the evil.

what is dharma?
Dharma is truth, dharma is justice, dharma is fearlessness, dharma is fighting the evil, dharma is peace, dharma is non-violence, dharma is many more things .... what dharma isn't is attachement to particular method or a mental conception. One has to act as per time and duty. That's all. Krishna in mahabharata did many things which were not ethical, but he did it, because it's truth that matters most

How we are different from asuras?
Because we are with the dharma and attama, they are not. We are as ruthless as an asura but only to an asura. An asura is ruthless to all who doesn't submit to him. We are ruthless to such man. One is great injustice, the other is a great justice

To end all this rant apply's to a hindu only. If a buddhist agrees - nothing like it. But I know from litttle personal experience, most dharmic men are not ready to take the field of work and those rare souls who have taken the path of work don't believe in dharma. Untill 2 become one, we are doomed.

Please don't take this big rant as a preaching. You follow your dharma. But I have to follow mine - and posting in internet isin't quite it:)

Vajradhara
06 April 2006, 05:35 PM
Namaste Singhi,

Thank you for the post.



No! But I don't think it is as pivotal as in hinduism (spl Gita and the Chaandi)


indeed, it is not as heavily emphasized in our teachings.



That's our moha in mind. You are attaching yourself to an concept in your mind as how ahimsha will appear and talking decesions.


quite curious, i am, to know how you've ascertained this bit of information.



On contrary decesions should be solely based on justice and truth - Satya.


perhaps this is true for my Sanatana Dharma friends. this is not, however, how we Buddha Dharma types would tend to go about it. in our view, our decisions should be based on compassion and recognition of the inherent nature of sentient existence.



A hindu has to do what is his duty.


indeed, this is so.



And slaying the asuras comes foremost-though we have forgotten this for a long time. But all our epic, all our puranas and our chaandi and our Gita and even the vedas is just about it. As Arjua (in this forum) said in the veg thread, there is no himsha or ahimsha in nature. It's in our mind. Ahimsha is a high virtue for the ego (cleverly avoided the word self :))...before duty it is non-issue.

naturally, since the ego doesn't really exist, either, basing views which are predicated upon said ego seems to be fraught with peril, at least in a theological sense. as such, this is not my practice.

through the practice of Ahisma we bestow fearlessness to those around us and inspire hope and joyous undertaking amongst the beings that we interact with.



The only reason why I'm a hindu is perhaves contained in the above paragraph. We strive to develop all the divine qualities inour character (not ahimsha only), but attach to none. In krishna's refuge I'm being assured that if required killing can become the greatest dharma.


indeed, becoming attached to the ideas espoused on the path is no different than being attached to ideas which are not concerned with the path.

our teachings are like bits of tile used to knock on the door, or like a raft used to cross the river. once the door is opened or the river crossed, the tile or the raft is no longer needed. many beings spend a great deal of time building their raft and can become rather attached to it, if they are not careful.



If you have any idea about India you will know such things don't work here.


i have some and it is based on this knowledge that i think what i do in this regard.

it matters not what the society in general does, in my view, our own motivations and actions are what we should keep watch over.



this is suppossedly hindu majority society but govt every day takes a legislation to destroy our society and coax the islamicists for a few votes.


this seems to be the nature of politics and has little to do with India, per se. politicians are very similiar thoughout the world, it seems.



In past 1400 years muslims have only eaten into our society.


herein lies the main difference in our views.

whilst it may well be so that Muslims have invaded and remain in the Indian heartland, the simple truth of the matter is that Islam, even in it's heyday, was never that much of a practice of the people, it was done by local rulers that desired to remain safe from the sword and retain their family holdings and so forth.

naturally, my view of Islam is not well disposed as a Buddhist. it cannot be overstated the irrepairable harm that was done to Buddhism, and the world, by the destruction of the University of Nalanda.

that being said, the Muslim population of India is still quite small, if i recall correctly, it is somewhere between 3-5%. so.. some 1400 years later and there is still virtually no Islam in India. seems like the Dharma is holding its own quite well :)



Please don't take this big rant as a preaching. You follow your dharma. But I have to follow mine - and posting in internet isin't quite it:)

actually, i try to follow the Buddha Dharma though i understand your meaning.

metta,

~v

Singhi Kaya
07 April 2006, 09:33 AM
Hari Om

Thanks for your reply. Your ideas are clear, it seems like given the difference in philosophy we agree more than I expected. So I'll mainly address the issue below:-



herein lies the main difference in our views.

whilst it may well be so that Muslims have invaded and remain in the Indian heartland, the simple truth of the matter is that Islam, even in it's heyday, was never that much of a practice of the people, it was done by local rulers that desired to remain safe from the sword and retain their family holdings and so forth.

naturally, my view of Islam is not well disposed as a Buddhist. it cannot be overstated the irrepairable harm that was done to Buddhism, and the world, by the destruction of the University of Nalanda.

that being said, the Muslim population of India is still quite small, if i recall correctly, it is somewhere between 3-5%. so.. some 1400 years later and there is still virtually no Islam in India. seems like the Dharma is holding its own quite well :)

Very first point. Islam is not 2%-5% of India. It is 14%-15%, if not more. And it is increasing at much faster pace than any other community in India, because oviously our minority licking govt cannot apply same brith control and marriage rules to them-lest they hurt their sentiments! If you think of the undivided India (India + Bangladesh + Pakistha) Muslims are more than 30%. Prediction is in about half a century they will be the majority in this aryavarta. As some know very well fate of hindu's will depend on muslims from outside India as well as inside. And even with 14% (which by far makes india one of the largest muslim country as well after Indonesia) they have started issuing fatwas banning hindu festivals - ofcourse news doesn't reach even outside that cursed village or district when such things happen. I know saraswati puja (goddess of knowledge) was banned in several places of murshidabad district of west bengal. Puja was indeed not carried out in most places. But our marxist hindu politicians keep fanning and oiling muslims and insluting the dharma. New desn;t reach outside, even if it reaches, nobody bothers. This is a win for Dharma? Is it even holding it's ground?
Here is a statistics of muslim growth In Inidan subcontinent:-
1>In roughly 1000 years muslims growth is from 0% to 30%+ of the subcontinent
2>Roughly 80Million Hindus perished during this period.
3>Buddhist population in North India evaporated to zero. In bengal it is common to call muslims as "nere". Now nere I think comes from the word "nera" which indicates a man which shaven head. Buddhist save heads and were a big population of the region.
4>In modern India growth rate of muslims is 1.5 times hindus, due toreasons already metioned.
5>What ever hindu''s that were left in bangladesh (pakisthan was hopeless from the start) ~ 16% are now being systematically driven out. It was same for Pak in during independence. In roughly 60n years Hindu population in Pak dropped from a position muslims hold now in India to 3% or less.

Do any of this indicates dharma is holding it's ground?? From cold hard fact I will say no. India is an unfinished business, Islam as a dogma to conquer and plunder the world for the Arab still percists as a religion. Little study of islam will idicate it's not even close to christianity and nothing to do with dharma as we understand. But people are too afraid to speak out lest their head start to roll or are not bothered as their current state is comfortable. This is exactly the neglect of duty I was talking about. We are with dharma. We are spiritual. Our power when we decide to uproot a social menace is way to much than Islam can amass from their drill of shouting at the sky at peak of their lungs 5 times a day.

Whether or not Islam became a common practice or just rulers follow it will be scolastic argument. Fortunately living in India and among the muslims I don't have to study on this. Personal experiences can be a much better substitute. But I don't want to make "racist" satement aginst muslims. I will only say within a very short span of time - a generation or 2 a converted muslim retains nothing about his sanatana tradition. There is an incredible science behind Islam. How do you think mohhammad was able to wipe off completely any memories of pre-islamic arabia from minds of all arabs?

I'll just request you or anyone for that matter to devote some time on Islam. If you think in all honesty that it is not dharma and indeed it harms others, then what's the use of dharma if we are not able to stop this adharma?

Singhi Kaya
07 April 2006, 09:42 AM
quite curious, i am, to know how you've ascertained this bit of information.

:eek:

Sorry I was talking in general terms. My english is often broken. I wan't trying to say you as in Vajradhara incarnation is bounded by moha in mind.:o

willie
07 April 2006, 09:07 PM
What has happened in the west is that the followers have been lied to too much and now they are like accountants. Always adding up what the words of holymen are and what their actions are and looking for them to balance out. So slowly churches are becomming social organizations , mainly occuppied by the well off and those who want to see and be seen. So the churches have to entertain the followers or see them leave, and this leads to all sorts of promises and emotional sermons.

The spirituality movement is breaking out because people have figured out the brahman cannot be explained by some books and cannot be incarcerated in some building. Brahman is only waiting for people to seek it out in a personal basis.

Hinduism is going down the same paths as other religions have and will get to the same ruin. Endless arguements about which holy books are the best, different paths that only confuse the followers, holymen that are one jump ahead of the law and no ceneral organization to ride herd on it at all.

Just keep the political establishment secular, there can be little worse then a state religion.

sarabhanga
08 April 2006, 01:52 AM
Namaste Willie,

The co-existence of different paths should not disturb the single-pointed devotion of true aspirants, whose chosen path is for them the only way forward. The only people who might be confused are those who as yet have no set path of their own ~ and they are surely without any Guru. The Dharmacakra is confusing (even fearsome) for those who are not already riding on its eternal carriage.

The world would be a much more peaceful place if only more people could understand that apparently quite divergent paths can actually lead straight to the same aim. Not “all paths are one”, but there certainly are many (equally valid) paths to God; and that is the point of a Guru (i.e. to lead you to where you wish to go, by a way that he knows well and which he trusts that you will be able to follow).

All Gurus will naturally have varying approaches, and the trick is to meet the appropriate Guru for you in your own particular life with all of its own particular circumstances and conditions (or more importantly, to recognize that Guru when he/she appears).

There is actually much effort in properly guiding a student, and if they do not live up to their promise then there are repercussions for the Guru, so I find it difficult to understand how some Gurus can properly initiate hundreds, even thousands, of students. In most cases, such Gurus are acting more like a Pujari, and basically just giving a blessing (and perhaps a copy of their new book, and a few sacred items from the ashram shop).

Singhi Kaya
08 April 2006, 04:40 AM
Dear Willie,

Argument is not about which books are more holy, but about which books are not at all holy. You don't seem to pay attention to what's being said by others. Which hindu including me has said that hinduism is the only path? I'll myself love to have buddhism rise again in this land. Point we were making was about islam and xainity. If they are regarded as a path to dharma, then I say why not fascism, why not maoism or pol-potism?

I think enough words have been spent arguing this. To you my suggestion is study Islam first. Bother about hinduism at a later stage. Only then will you realize what risk we are talking about and how essential is this fight to save hinduism.

Regards--
S

Singhi Kaya
08 April 2006, 04:41 AM
To Respected Sarabhanga,

Yes paths which are outwardly divergent can lead to same aim. But the aim has to be same and that is spirituality and knowledge of the self or non-self. My humble understanding is humans are complex beings. We are more animals than God and each of us base ourself on some state of awareness in our conciousness more than others. Some are more loving, some are more rational. Hence various methods are needed by various people to attain that aim. But the gates to realization are same. One has to overcome the same 3 granthi's in mind to break free from the bondage.

I may understand your eagerness to share this information. But I would request you to that when we are arguing various cults within sanatana dharma or arguing about other dharmic paths (buddhism, jainsim, tao, western mysticism, bla bla bla ... ). Also mynderstanding is various spiritual paths within sanatana dharma are not divergent but convergent. Divergent is the wrong way of looking at the outward appearence. Not to be deluded by outward appearence is the key theme of all dharamic traditions. Thus meditating inward.
If we bring dharmachakra into the discussion when the focus is on adharma, things get diluted. This habit of hindu saints has cost the civilization dearly.

Key is spirituality and dharma which is negation of asurik. An asurik doesn't allow anyone else other than it's own cult to survive (Islam). An asurik's spend all their energy in ruthless bhoga of the world (and remember the concept of Islamic heaven with means to satisfy endless lust). They block the path of development of all others. One is forced to do an unsceintific "bend down-stand up" exercise. If one develops an attarction outside the cult, his head will roll.

I say this with all respect to a sannyasin. But our sadhus have paid no real attention to samaj dharma. The few who come back to society seem only interested to build large number of bhaktas and speak for sarba dharma bad.

sarabhanga
08 April 2006, 07:17 AM
Namaste Singhi,

Sanatana Dharma requires an understanding that there is only one ultimate, unborn and eternal God. And any Dharma that provides an effective path to that God-head is one in Sanatana Dharma.


The world would be a much more peaceful place if only more people could understand that apparently quite divergent paths can actually lead straight to the same aim.
Indeed, the divergence is only apparent (i.e. in outward appearance) and the very first spiritual direction that a wise Guru should give is to look within yourself to find the Self.


Not “all paths are one”, but there certainly are many (equally valid) paths to God.
Within Sanatana Dharma there are various Dharmas, but not all religious paths are Sanatana Dharma.

There are many thousands of Sannyasins in India, and thousands more are regularly initiated, and I wonder how much you really know of their individual teachings and their social or political activities?

Singhi Kaya
08 April 2006, 11:35 AM
Thanks for the reply Sharabhanga Ji.



There are many thousands of Sannyasins in India, and thousands more are regularly initiated, and I wonder how much you really know of their individual teachings and their social or political activities?
Sarabhanga Ji,

I may not know much may be very little - but those little has been mostly negative. Courtesy new age astha TV I know most of the well known. Meaning I know what they teach to the masses.

Since I'm still looking for an effective way to serve my dharma, I try to keep my eyes and ears open and soon I hear a sadhu in some part has spoken against communist oppression, or Islamic fundamentalism or against tatical conversion of poor tribals by missionaries I try to meet the person. It is another thing that I rarely hear a sadhu of this country speak out politically or do anything to stop the degradation at social level or even speak out often. I have lived in this country for all my life, my family has kula guru's and had brief association with hindutva movement. If it were that common I would have heard quite a much.

Muslims bomb one of the famous temples of varanasi. How many well known sadhus do we have heard to even condemn it? Forget about truth of Islam.
Last I read an interview of one of the most respected authority on hindu dharma, he was saying whether terrorists understand the true essence of Islam.
And I feel like - "Indeed they do, much more than you understand the essence of your dharma." The sad reality is future of santana dharma and india itself is now in grave doubt. Why then I do I see so many holy man content with their bhaktas, or not concerned or worse spreading the poison we are talking about in this thread?

I respect spirituality, but I try to respect truth even more. Those who can't speak for truth but are believed to be spiritual masters (indeed they may be) - I stay away. My personal dharma ofcourse.

Actually I should not bother what other's do and say, so maybe these words are more about frustration.

sarabhanga
08 April 2006, 07:28 PM
Namaste Singhi,

I don’t see much TV, and I have no idea of which Gurus make regular television appearances or of anything they might be saying there. But any individual Guru (who is not an Acarya with the financial support of an established Sampradaya) is most likely funded by donations from his/her devotees. The Acarya does not need to sell himself or his teachings, and no Dashanami Acarya would suggest that Sanatana Dharma is only Bhakti and donations.

The Dharma of Sannyasins (like that of Shudras) is Service, and (from my own observations) if any true Sannyasins gain devotees or students who give them financial or material support in excess of their basic requirements, their very first idea will be to establish a school (preferably a traditional Sanskrit Vidyalaya), or to take in orphan children, or to regularly feed the poor and destitute, or to build a medical clinic (usually Ayurvedic) or even a full hospital if funds allow.

Over the last decade I have seen the world of Sadhus become more and more politicized, as certain political leaders have gravitated towards different Acaryas and Gurus, and this has led to some unnecessary animosity between different Akhadas due to what are basically political disagreements (between BJP and Congress, for example).

The tension between certain Akhadas, has at times reached such a pitch that government military forces have often been mobilized to keep the disputants apart!

Sadhus should not be concerned with politics as such, but they are rightfully concerned about society and the propagation of Dharma.

Singhi Kaya
09 April 2006, 03:58 AM
Namaste Sarabhanga Ji,

So Sannyasins should participate in Shudra work only?
Is this an old idea - because in puranas we see rishi's regularly give advice to kings on matters of politics. All the revered ones take the side of the Good/Daivi and advice against eradicating the evil/asurik. Indeed some kings are themselves seers and vice-a-versa. So by Sannasins do you mean the das nami sampradaya since Shankara? Because I find it hard to believe that a Guru's job is to do seva. It goes against shaktibad, goes against what little I know about our ancient culture. I thought Guru's job is to teach and advice his students and kings in truth and self-realization.

Without politics society doesn't work. If politics is controlled by mlecchas and asuriks - how much can sudra work help the society and dharma?

I'm not at all questioning your point, only want to know if this concept is ancient or comes from the time when shankara's sannyasins sampradayas came into being?

Thanks for the kind replies.

sarabhanga
09 April 2006, 06:34 PM
Namaste Singhi,

The only duty of Sannyasins is “service” ~ service to God, service to Guru, and service to humanity.

Regularly giving advice to Kings is an onerous service. And remember that all Gurus have Gurus themselves! And their service to shishyas and devotees in teaching, and blessing, and generally providing advice and assistance to others in need, should not be ignored.

If not Seva, then total immersion in Yoga ~ there are no alternatives for one who has renounced all attachment to the world and even the mortal body, and who has renounced the Gayatri and cast the sacred thread into Ganga.

A true Sannyasin does absolutely nothing for himself, so that EVERYTHING that he does is done for another ~ which is the very ideal of Seva.

I have tried to point out that many Sadhus are keenly aware of political issues and often actively involved for the general betterment of society (which you had denied).

sarabhanga
09 April 2006, 07:37 PM
Ekadandi (or Shastradhari) Dashanamis stop wearing the Yajnopavita at their final Samskara, but it is not discarded.
And this includes the Sarasvati, Tirtha, Ashrama, Parvata, Sagara, Aranya, and some Bharati Babas.

Avadhuta and Naga (or Astradhari) Dashanamis actually discard their Yajnopavita along with the vedic Gayatri.
And this includes the Puri, Giri, Vana, and most Bharati Babas.

The highest Shastradharis are Paramahamsas, while the highest Astradharis are Nagas.

willie
09 April 2006, 09:22 PM
Gurus, dime a dozen and a nickle per gross around the holidays , even cheaper if someone is willing to haul them away. The more a peron listens to a guru and watches what they do the more things don't add up.

In the west people have a lot of different religions and some go from one to another looking at them all. Searching for something they can believe in 100% but they never find it . Mainly because the 100 % thing was what broke up the church in the first place. The difference between most of the religions comes down to a real hair splitting match.

Then there is this whole one man teaching a few students idea. Just think if universities were run that way? Wandering professors teaching a few pleople at time. I don't see may doctors or engineers comming out of that. And so a person would have to kiss the modern world good bye. Not a workable idea, as I see it.

willie
09 April 2006, 09:33 PM
I have followed the argurments and they boil down to not likeing anyone elses holy book but yours. Some religions won't allow any other competing ideas to compete with theirs in the area of religion, conversion is a death sentence and when the cannot live with their holybook they write another book to explain what the holybook is really saying. Such as islam and the quran and the hadith problem.

The philosophical argrement in hinduism end up in some holybooks being called bad because they don't support the wrong philosophy. Well if you start throwing out these works you will have nothing left.

Facism and communism were failed by people being all too human, the ideas would probably have worked. But people wanted to be different from each other and live better than others so the whole idea failed.

If islam takes over the earth I don't expect the infighting to do anything but get worse. After all there are the sunnis , shia, wahabais and the sufi, none of whom seen to get along with each other.

Namo Narayana
10 April 2006, 07:18 AM
Gurus, dime a dozen and a nickle per gross around the holidays , even cheaper if someone is willing to haul them away. The more a peron listens to a guru and watches what they do the more things don't add up.

In the west people have a lot of different religions and some go from one to another looking at them all. Searching for something they can believe in 100% but they never find it . Mainly because the 100 % thing was what broke up the church in the first place. The difference between most of the religions comes down to a real hair splitting match.

Then there is this whole one man teaching a few students idea. Just think if universities were run that way? Wandering professors teaching a few pleople at time. I don't see may doctors or engineers comming out of that. And so a person would have to kiss the modern world good bye. Not a workable idea, as I see it.

willie arent we going off topic ? Now I am confused with secularism. The wandering yogi teaching a bunch of students is nothing new. I dont think anyone is prescribing it for the whole world. it is for the few who want to go that way. but you can never say it wont produce doctors and engineers or astronomers. ayurveda is a form of medicine which was formulated by these students many thousand years ago. Siddha medicine is another example of a wandering yogi providing cure.

willie
10 April 2006, 09:53 PM
No need to go off topic. In a secular country there will be a lot of socalled gurus wandering around for all sorts or religions. All giving out a different message and wanting to get some students to follow then, hopefully some with some money.

The interesting part will be when these gurus run into each other. Perhaps it will provide some entertainment for the spectators.

I think the world has changed and the days or the wandering holyman is finally about over. In the secular world those who want to take on a spiritual path will have choices and perhaps recognized schools of instruction, where various ideas and thoughts can be compaired.

That could be a better idea then these wandering holymen of questionable background.

Namo Narayana
10 April 2006, 10:50 PM
perhaps sarabhanga will give you an accurate answer.

sritantra
11 April 2006, 12:49 AM
Megha-mettA greetings to all list members. I am a first time poster here.

Personally I am not at all ready to admit the industrial spiritualism that seems to be mooted in the shadow of a post-industrial world – but in glorious the light of postsannyasin.

From reading a snippet of his recently published Baba: Autobiography of a Blue-Eyed Yogi (http://www.rampuri.com/), I learn that the American author Rampuri also laments the passing of the days when, entering rural villages, Indian children would swarm around him eager to hear fantastic stories of wandering yogis. 'Today that's dead,' the senior sadly grieves. [Note: I have actually not yet read Sitaram/Rampuri's book.]

On my own recent month-long return to India, I became quite puzzled by what I perceived as the terribly diminished social respect that people used to show to one another - let alone show to monks. But then, it also occurred to me after some days later that there was an almost eerie absents of monks – compared, for example, to Southeast Asia. Had I only imagined that people in India once greeted each other with palms pressed together? Is this what is meant by "secularism, as practised in India (http://in.rediff.com/news/shankaracharya04.htm)"?


Still from my own immediate experience I can only affirm that the ancient sampradAya of wandering saints is flowing strong as ever in the world. Neither belonging to, nor heading any formal organization, I am solely 'funded' by small random gifts from friends and strangers. I regularly collect food while walking with alms bowl (http://bauddhamata.blogspot.com/2005/06/joo-chiat-alms-round.html).

sarabhanga
11 April 2006, 04:39 AM
Most of the wandering Sadhus in India actually do come together at least every 12 years ~ but this has only been happening for about 3,000 years now, and at the last gathering at Prayaga only about 70,000,000 people turned up.

sarabhanga
11 April 2006, 04:54 AM
The sage Durvasas, intent on the sight of Lord Indra, visited Amaravati, the immortal citadel of Svarga (Heaven). High-spirited Durvasas offered a garland of never-fading blooms to Indra, who passed it on to his elephant Airavata, who thoughtlessly crushed the priceless garland of the sage's eternal devotion under its feet. Angered by Indra's apparent arrogance, Durvasas (renowned for his quick temper) pronounced a curse on Lord Indra ~ that He would be stripped of all His riches, virtues, and powers.

Bali (the consumer of all tributes) was immediately alerted to the Lord's failing strength; and he stole away all of Indra's riches and virtuous possessions. All of the Gods were now weakened.

Lord Vishnu (the preserver of Creation) advised Indra that, in order to regain His rightful power and position, and to ensure the success of Creation and the endurance of Heaven itself, the salvation of Amrta (the Nectar of Immortality) must be sought and attained.

Amrta was secreted in the depths of cosmic dissolution (the Ocean of the Void), and the Gods conceived a plan for its extraction.

An opposition was established; and the positive and negative forces were ranged at either end of Vasuki, the Nagaraja, the infinite serpent that is the support of Creation. This celestial Naga, the endless thread of Time (Kala) was coiled around Mandaracala (Manthana ~ churning stick), the Meru, the timeless axis of the creative vortex (Mahakala).

The tensions generated by these opposing forces in their endless struggle began to turn the universal axis on itself.

Lord Brahma (the inspiration of Creation ~ the Creator) supervised from above, in the form of Hamsa (the soaring goose); and Lord Vishnu (in the form of Kurma, the sturdy tortoise) held the shaft from below.

Back and forth the battle raged, with neither side able to win, and as Mandara rotated, now one way, now the other, the previously calm sea became agitated. And this primal tempest broke the perfectly calm expanse of the milky Flood, which is Creation in Dissolution.

In the turbulent depths of this now imperfect and limited Reality, an array of particular qualities became defined; and as each was conceived it rose to the surface, where the Gods recognized it as one of the eternal jewels of Creation (now in Manifestation).

Among these principles of existence, the most potent are those of Life (Amrta) and Death (mrta). And between these two extremes, another twelve virtuous Gems (Ratna) emerged in turn from the foam.

Death arose first, as the fearsome poison of Halahala, Hahala, or Garala (found today in the roots of Aconitum ferox, the deadly Indian Aconite), to which even the Gods are not immune ~ all except Lord Shiva, the celestial Yogin who dwells on the still heights of Mandara (the vertical shaft of the motive axis).

The other Gods fled from Death in terror; but Shiva consumed the mortal draught without hesitation, since He is Mahakala, the immortal Lord of Time itself, and Destruction and Death are his own.

Then the Flying Horse, the Magic Moon, the Sky Chariot, the Vibrant Lyre, the nymph Rambha, Lakshmi (good Fortune), Vishvakarma (the divine Architect), Dhanvantari (the divine Healer), Gajaraja (the divine Elephant), the famous Kaustubha Jewel, the divine Conch, the enchanting Varuni, and finally the coveted Vessel of Immortality ~ the Amrta Kumbha.

The essence of Life was desired by all, and both sides of the creative conflict, the forces of Darkness and those of Light, in disorder ran after this fount of immortal nectar. Lord Brihaspati (Jupiter ~ the Guru) thoughtfully rescued the Amrta Kumbha and fled the scene.

As fast as Guru-Da (Garuda, the vehicle of Vishnu) could fly, the celestial forces kept pace; and their riot continued for 12 divine days (or 12 human years), as the Gods and the Demons struggled for possession of the Kumbha. And, before the Kumbha was returned to its original position, some drops of its content, the essential Water of Life, had been spilled.

The Elixir had fallen to the four quarters of Earth, and a living Creation was now inevitable.

This legendary shower of Amrta is recalled at four ancient headquarters of the earthly Naga legions, where the Soma is yet held closely guarded in their Akhara (the lair of a wild animal); and at a time determined by the Guru (i.e. Jupiter, whose cycle of return is about 12 years), the Kumbha overflows and its precious Amrta is released. The four immortal locations are Haridwar, Prayag, Tryambak, and Ujjain; and, at the Guru’s command, millions are drawn into the auspicious field of Kumbha Mela to bathe.

The one day of Christmas celebrated every 12 months in Christianity, is essentially equivalent with the one month of Kumbha Mela celebrated every 12 years in Hinduism.

The arrival of the Guru, and the blessing which that event implies, is certainly something to be celebrated!

OM Tat Sat : Jaya Guru Datta!

Gill Harley
11 April 2006, 04:57 AM
The interesting part will be when these gurus run into each other. Perhaps it will provide some entertainment for the spectators.

I think the world has changed and the days or the wandering holyman is finally about over. In the secular world those who want to take on a spiritual path will have choices and perhaps recognized schools of instruction, where various ideas and thoughts can be compaired.

That could be a better idea then these wandering holymen of questionable background.

I think this is a very Western way of regarding education, which is not that helpful, imho, in this context. The true spiritual teacher, the true guru, arrives in the aspirant's life when they are ready for him. It is already written who our teachers will be - it's not a case of reading an article in a consumer magazine like Which? and then making comparisons. Our egos are not in control of this process - thank goodness!:)

Namo Narayana
11 April 2006, 07:44 AM
Megha-mettA greetings to all list members. I am a first time poster here.

Personally I am not at all ready to admit the industrial spiritualism that seems to be mooted in the shadow of a post-industrial world – but in glorious the light of postsannyasin.

From reading a snippet of his recently published Baba: Autobiography of a Blue-Eyed Yogi (http://www.rampuri.com/), I learn that the American author Rampuri also laments the passing of the days when, entering rural villages, Indian children would swarm around him eager to hear fantastic stories of wandering yogis. 'Today that's dead,' the senior sadly grieves. [Note: I have actually not yet read Sitaram/Rampuri's book.]

On my own recent month-long return to India, I became quite puzzled by what I perceived as the terribly diminished social respect that people used to show to one another - let alone show to monks. But then, it also occurred to me after some days later that there was an almost eerie absents of monks – compared, for example, to Southeast Asia. Had I only imagined that people in India once greeted each other with palms pressed together? Is this what is meant by "secularism, as practised in India (http://in.rediff.com/news/shankaracharya04.htm)"?


Still from my own immediate experience I can only affirm that the ancient sampradAya of wandering saints is flowing strong as ever in the world. Neither belonging to, nor heading any formal organization, I am solely 'funded' by small random gifts from friends and strangers. I regularly collect food while walking with alms bowl (http://bauddhamata.blogspot.com/2005/06/joo-chiat-alms-round.html).

Sritantra, Welcome to the forum. I suggest you give a short introduction about yourself in introductions forum. OK Question. How is flow of wandering sanyasins in India , if you have any idea. Is the number healthy ?

willie
12 April 2006, 09:44 PM
Well let's look at this wandering holyman sort of education. The one problem with it is that you never know if this holyman is real or just a pretender. Maybe there should be some agency the could keep track of these people and give some certification to the ones who could pass muster.

Sure no one what this because it puts an agency on charge of the whole holyman thing, and to be sure there will be those who get credentials for the purpose to take advantage of the gullabile.

When a secular world get to be the norm then there will no doubt be debated between holymen and some to the cherished ideas of the major religions. This could be a good thing , reincarnation and the whole multiple god thing would be good topics. The whole idol thing could be thrashed out and so could the idea of who was the first religion and the worth of holybooks.

I see a new religion growing up and some of the old ones being laid to rest. And this could be a good thing , so I don't see why people are so against the whole secular world. It is only a matter of time til it happens and it will have to be faced sooner rather than later.

Those who are afraid are the one who thing that people will leave their religions and go over to someone eleses, so they have to keep the faithful in line by quoting scripture about worshiping some god before theirs.

satay
12 April 2006, 09:51 PM
Well let's look at this wandering holyman sort of education. The one problem with it is that you never know if this holyman is real or just a pretender. Maybe there should be some agency the could keep track of these people and give some certification to the ones who could pass muster.

Sure no one what this because it puts an agency on charge of the whole holyman thing, and to be sure there will be those who get credentials for the purpose to take advantage of the gullabile.


there are already such 'agencies' in some religions of the world they produce 'holeee men' and call them bishops and saints and such...

do you suggest we do the same for dharma?
satay

Namo Narayana
12 April 2006, 09:58 PM
in dharma the sadhus or holymen happen out of their own wish. thats why they are much stronger and can help you in your spiritual needs. many new religion may come. will they sustain ? nobody knows. but dharma will remain forever , I believe. Dharma has remained all these millenia and inspired and made people awe at it. idolation and adulation cannot be destroyed. destroyed will be the opinions who see idol as an object.

willie
13 April 2006, 09:59 PM
Dharma could certainly use some sort of agency looking over the shoulders of these holymen.

In america some of these bishops and priests are being sued in court for things they did in the past and the churchs are having some problems getting the settlement money together. And some of the socalled holymen are doing some jailtime after being defrocked.

Sure the woods are full of others but I would imagine that those others are not breathing to easy now. Hopefully, they are waiting for the police to knock on the door and hold them accountable for past actions.

There has to be some sort of enforcment of rules for these types of things.

In the US an uppity minister will be not last long before the congregation. In some sence it is like the old testament where punks jump up to be beat back down. Many of loudmouth hellfire and brimstone minister has been shown the door by the congregation. And ministers who bad mouth other religions will be quickly taken to task.

willie
13 April 2006, 10:08 PM
In the comming secular world I see religions melding together to for something new , something that draws from other religions. Maybe sikhs and bahais are in the frount of this movement.

One of the problems that occrued before secular thought broke out was that religions had staked out most of their areas and had a firm grip on them , kicking out the weak and doing some infighting also. But eventually the market share was taken up and to gain more market you had to get followers from some other religion. Well , hello, conversion so for defense there was the death threat for those who converted. Look at what that got us!

Secular thought came along and slowly the walls of the empire's wall began to crumble.

Namo Narayana
13 April 2006, 11:49 PM
willie, when you say you see, you see, do you have any backing for your foresight ?

sarabhanga
14 April 2006, 02:02 AM
Once again Willie, you speak of things you do not understand.
An elaborate system of certification has long been in place to identify authentic Sannyasins ~ especially in the Akhadas, where the unorthodox (but extremely traditional) practices of many (e.g. the nakedness of Digambara Nagas) may require some kind of Government certification to avoid possible arrest under modern laws ~ not to mention the understanding that no certified "wandering holyman" will be troubled by the authorities for travelling by rail (2nd class unreserved) without a paid ticket.

willie
14 April 2006, 09:19 PM
Look at how religion has progressed over time. Little by little, it has abandoned ideas of the past and even the practive of most religions has changed over time. Christianity has changed its worship practices over the centuries and continues to change in the present. And other religions have followed suite.

The bahias started in an islamic country and while most of the leaders were killed or imprisioned it spread out across the world. It wanted to use ideas of other religions that work for its worshipers in its practice. Well this did not sit too well with those who thought that islam was the final workd in religions.

Shiks too part of islam, in the one diety idea and the idea that it was not be be represented by a picture or statue, and brought in reincarnation. A combination of ideas of other religions.

I see no reason that this has died out and in america ideas of other religions are being discussed in churches all over. The priest, preachers , imans and other religions are talking at services of other religions.

I see no reason to stop now and perhaps the real unification of religion will be the birth of a religion where everyone will have some part they can believe in and hold sacred.

Secular thought is out here and is wearing down the old ways, as we speak, it is destroying old ideas. I was surprised to learn the in montreal they sell communion wafers as snack food at stop and shops. People have realized the they are only a flat piece of bread.

willie
14 April 2006, 09:29 PM
In america there were also laws in place and certification programs. However, the bad slipped in any way but then people grew tired of it and stood up and went to court to use the laws. And they have dragged down many a holyman who thougt they were above the justice of the law. Slowly the bad are being weeded out and defrocked and I have no doubt that the same thing happens in other religions but the people have not stood up and brought down the culprits.

Secular thought is making people use the tools they have to get the bad apples out. In the netherlands the government is passing laws for those who immigrant and making it clear that it is a secular society and that wormen have an equal say under the law and the practices of the home country will not be tolerated .

If any of you are in india then look around and listen to what people say. I think you will find plenty to be concerned about.

elijah115
28 April 2006, 10:39 AM
I don't know what churches you are talking about but at my church we spend like 0 % time speaking about other religions - we're more concerned about taking the plank out of our own eyes than criticising other religions, but when we do criticise we are not meant to lie for the sake of political correctness

satay
28 April 2006, 10:57 AM
I don't know what churches you are talking about but at my church we spend like 0 % time speaking about other religions - we're more concerned about taking the plank out of our own eyes than criticising other religions, but when we do criticise we are not meant to lie for the sake of political correctness

This is true in the church my wife goes to as well. They rarely mention any other religions let alone discuss them in detail.

willie
28 April 2006, 10:45 PM
Most churches done dicuss other religions by name but if you listen to new ideas that are put forth you can see ideas of other religions comming in the discussion. For a considerable amount of time no one discussed what god was really like. Now I hear people discussing what god might be like. And I have hears people refer to people as spirits in human bodies and that these spirits were luck the have these human bodies. Additonally, I have heard conversation about people action having some influence on how their life turns out. All of these would , in the past , got a person thrown out of church in the past.

People seem to thing that some change is going to happend that will leave a mark, like dark and light contrast. Well not really, it will be more like a gradual change.

There have been incidents there mullahs have spoken at chruches and rabbis. Hindus have also come in to give talks.

The world is changing all the time and the past if being left behind. The secular world is here and those who adept will survive others will not.

Singhi Kaya
17 May 2006, 08:33 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4986616.stm



The new government in India's Tamil Nadu state has decided to end the monopoly of Brahmins and high-caste Hindus in the state's temples.

It has decided that priests in Hindu temples all over the state will be drawn from every caste. Until now, the priesthood in Tamil Nadu had been the exclusive preserve of high-caste Hindus, especially Brahmins.

A secular state poking it's nose into religious affair of hindu's.:rolleyes:
How about trying participation of hindus and secuarists in determining the jehadi curriculum of the deobandi madrasa?

willie
17 May 2006, 09:46 PM
Slowly but sure the forces of equality move against the stonewalls of what has always been. The world is changing and people are tired of being beat down.

Around the world the changes are happening, in Saudi Arabia women are voting and holding political office, plus soon they will be allowed to work and own businesses. The religious hardliners are fighting it tooth and nail because they can see the writting on the wall and it says that their days are numbered. So can the hindus bad mouth the muslims and still repress part of the population like them? I don't think so!

saidevo
10 May 2007, 10:52 PM
Games Media plays in India
8/4/2006 7:41:45 AM HK
http://www.haindavakeralam.org/PageModule.aspx?PageID=1571&SKIN=B

Pseudo secular Media is the curse of Indian Society. Media barons who act on behalf Christians, Jehadis and Communists are in the payroll of these anti national forces. Most of the Indian media presents fabricated and distorted news to serve the anti Hindu propaganda. Several instances clearly indicate the fabricated and distorted news. Here are some examples:

Ø News Headlines / Flash News used to says - 20 people of a ‘particular community’ shot dead in Doda Kashmir- how many of you know that they were all Hindus?.

When the recent unrest took place in Vadodara, the headline flashed as - 'Muslim boy shot to death in vadodara, unrest deepens'. Please compare the deliberate psychological game and mind manipulation in these two reports..

Ø Ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus will be reported as "death of minority". But if it is the death of a Kashmiri Muslim, Media headlines goes like this - "Militants begin targeting Kashmiri Muslims"!.

Ø More than two lakhs Kashmiri Hindus have been exterminated, yet no media or politicians are aware about it nor finds time to shed a single tear for them. When 2000 Gujarati Muslims were died in riots, Media and Politicians wake up from their self imposed denial and make huge hue and cry. For them, 2000 Muslim lives are more valuable than 200,000 Hindus!.

Ø When Muslim riots took place in Gujarat, every Media wanted to chop off the head of Sangh Parivar leaders, but when Jihadi Terrorists attacked Akshardam Temple, Varanasi, New Delhi, Bangalore, Coimbatore, Marad, & Mumbai, Media and pseudo secularists appealed for peace and communal harmony!

Ø Television channel, especially Communist control NDTV showcase the plight of Muslims in Gujarat every now and then. But why no single media in India is concerned about the plight of Kashmiri Hindus?

Ø Photograph of a Muslim crying in front of the police with his hands folded is widely circulated after Gujarat riots. But how many of us saw the photographs of the burnt bodies of 20 Hindu children in the Godhra attack?. Media were never interested in showing any reports or photographs of the Parents / Widows / Children of the innocent Hindus being killed by the Islamic terrorists in Godhra, Kashmir, New Delhi, Bangalore, Kerala, Hyderabad and Coimbatore etc..

Ø 30,000 temples were destroyed during the Mughal regimes and it is not an issue for biased Indian media, but when Hindus wanted to reconstruct temples in Ayodhya, Kashi and Mathura, the media twists it is an attempt to communalize Indian society!

Ø About the recent Vadodara unrest. 14 temples blocking the road were demolished, no objection from any Hindus. One similar Dargah was demolished became a national problem!. All the prominent medias called for Narendra Modi to resign following this incident and became the headlines in all the national Medias.

Ø Finally, the recent Mumbai blasts. Communist sponsored English
newspaper THE HINDU was busy in highlighting the rescue operations carried out by the Muslims and the number of Muslims attended in blood donation camps after terrorist attack. But THE HINDU journalist who reported this news deliberately ignored selfless services of Hindu Organizations in Mumbai.

It must be that the media take pleasure in spreading persistent, pervasive lies about Hindus. What else could explain the credulous acceptance of lies, half-truths and distortion of news about Hindus and selfless services of nationalist Hindu organizations?.

The inconsistencies, deceptions, and outright falsehoods about the reports are obvious. It is profoundly disturbing to note that the picture that continues to emerge from the media about Hindus, in which passive, peace loving, tolerant, nationalist Hindus come out as aggressive, militant, fundamentalists, and the violent, non compromising Muslim and Christian gangs come out as victims.

The hysteria emanating from the journalists is so persistent that the innocent readers may get a negative image of Hindus. This psycho-linguistic programming of the media and deliberate false reporting is not only patently false but also encourage Muslim, Christian and Communist terrorists to continue their deadly, terrorist, and irrational anti national activities.

Hindus must wake up from complacency, and denial, take affairs into their own hands and shape their own destinies. Hindus must unite, reassess themselves, address the media bias and voice their feelings forcefully and assertively with the hostile media.

Hindus must tell the media in strong words and actions that they should not be trifled with.

A Reader's Comment
Re: Games Media plays in India
H.Balakrishnan 8/5/2006 12:04:49 AM

DEAR SIR,
1.Compliments for an excellent analysis.Yes,the 'secular' English media in India is ANTI-HINDU.Lets have no doubts on this score.And the reason for this,as I have understood from numerous analyses,is that the media has been penetrated deep by the 'commies',from the days of Nehru onwards.

2.To a few practical examples of media deceit in their reportings.

3. (A)MEDIA LIE- Rape of four nuns in Jhabua,Madhya Pradesh
(B)TRUTH- The M.P Government (at that time it was a Congress(I) govt!! It arrests as many CHRISTIANS as non-Christians involved in the act.IT WAS LOCAL ANIMOSITIES,INTRA-CHURCH THAT WAS THE CAUSE OF THE INCIDENT.

4. (A)MEDIA LIE- "JHABUA RE-ENACTED IN JHAJJAR" screamed the HINDUSTAN TIMES headlines.
(B) TRUTH- Investigations found the incident to be a COMPLETE FABRICATION.NO ONE WAS MOLESTED.

5. (A)MEDIA LIE- Story in Associated Press. An American doctor John Sylvester,working in Allahabad had been attacked by Hindu fundamentalists and his CLINIC HAD BEEN BROKEN UP.
(B)TRUTH- John Sylvester IS NOT AN AMERICAN.HIS WIFE IS.HE IS NOT A MEDICAL PRACTIONER.HE HAS A DOCTRATE IN ECONOMICS.HE HAD NO MEDICAL CLINIC!!

6. (A) MEDIA LIE- In Baripada,Orissa, a nun allegedly raped.
(B) TRUTH- Medical examination of the 'raped nun' showed no signs of rape.Justice Wadhwa,who inquired into the Graham Staines murder case,also inquired into this 'alleged atrocity'.He concluded: 'IT WAS A MADE UP STORY'.

7. The foregoing,while not exhaustive,is illustrative of the depths of depravity of our 'secular' media!!As the Belgian scholar,Dr. Koenraad Elst puts it, "Distortive or even totally FALSE reporting on communally sensitive issues is a well entrenched feture of INDIAN JOURNALISM.Ther is no self-corrective mechnism in place to remedy this endemic culture of DISINFORMATION.No reporter or columnist or editor ever gets fired or formally reprimanded or even just criticised by his peers for smearing HINDU NATIONALISTS.This way,a partisan ECONOMY WITH THE TRUTH HAS BECOME A HABIT HARD TO RELINQUISH. And foreign correspondents used to trusting their INDIAN SECULARIST SOURCES have likewise developed a habit of swallowing and relaying HIGHLY DISTORTED NEWS STORIES."

8. WHAT CAN WE DO? My experience indicates that to call the 'bluff' of these 'secular' journalists is to join issue with them by writing letters to the Eitor.Arun Shourie has recommended this course of action in his 'THESE LETHAL INEXORABLE LAWS-RAJIV,HIS MEN & REGIME'.Its a perfectly decent manner of protest.Believe me,it has its positive effects.Thats what a friend of mine,a journalist has said.Post 7/11,a spate of 'dhimmi' and 'apologists' Articles appeared in the columns of THE NEW INDIAN EXPRESS (CHENNAI).I was kept busy,that whole week,giving my counter point of view to the Articles.Beleieve me,these 'dhimmi' Articles have disappeared,as suddenly as they appeared!!So much so,the very same paper had an Article by its Chennai Editor on 04 AUG,titled "NO SOFT OPTIONS:TACKLE TERROR WITH IRON HAND"!! What a change of stand!!I did pay a 'left-handed' compliment to the Chennai editor in a letter sent yesterday.My plea,therefore,dear members,do please spare a few minutes of your valuable time and write to the EDITOR,VOICING YOUR COUNTER POINT.It does have an effect,over a period of time.THATS THE LEAST WE CAN DO FOR THE HINDU CAUSE,IN A DECENT MANNER-HITTING THEM INTELLECTUALLY.

NAMASKARAMS
WARM REGARDS
H.BALAKRISHNAN