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yajvan
23 October 2009, 01:56 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

There has been discussions in science about the size of the universe. Some say endless, others say not. But what if you think about it for a moment. Scientists say this universe is expanding - they as of yet cannot tell us the actual expansion rate ( i.e. how fast/velocity is the expansion occurring).
Also there was a time when they said the universe, really its contents, will fold back in on itself and contract back to its original dense state. That theory has fast become archaic.

But that said, let's just for a moment think of a universe that has boundaries - perhaps a sphere in which all things are contained. If you like boxes, then think of a box that contains all the elements (dravya द्रव्य -the ingredients or materials of anything) of this total creation. My questions would then be the following:

Q: what is on the other side of this box or sphere?
A: Well... nothing.
Q: But what is nothing?
A: Hummm , I guess emptiness.
Q: What do we call that emptiness?
A: Space or ākāśa.
Q: And what is ākāśa?
A: More space.
Q: And what then is that space?
A: The continued extension of the universe.

Observation 1: Even if it (the universe) ends and has no more material ( galaxies, gases, etc.) , it still continues as space and that then is the continuation of this universe.

Q: Well, then lets say at the end-edge of this universe it is not space, it is pure hard rock, it is the wall that stops or constrains all the material within the boundaries of the universe.
A: Okay.
Q: What provides that rock a location for it to reside in?
A: Space.
Q: But the rock exists to create this boundary.
A: Yes, and space is right there to allow the rock to exist, and again the continuation of the universe is there.

Observation 2: without space (ākāśa) there is no room for things to exist. Hence - ākāśa akṣaram paramaṃ vyoman - The Supreme, immutable (nature) of ākāśa.

praṇām

words

ākāśa आकाश - free or open space
ākṣaram अक्षर - imperishable
paramaṃ or parama परम - highest, most prominent , supreme
vyoman व्योमन्- heaven , sky , atmosphere

yajvan
23 October 2009, 07:47 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

I wrote in the 1st post above,

ākāśa akṣaram paramaṃ vyoman - The Supreme, immutable (nature) of ākāśa.
What is Supreme about this? Let's get some guidance - chāndogya upaniṣad 1.9.1 offers the following:
śikaka¹ said ' to what original source does this world go back (to)?'
pravahāṇa replied, 'to ākāśa for everything that has come into being origininates verily from this ākāśa and all of them disappear back into it. Therefore it is greater then all these ( other elements and forms they have been discussing in the other sections of this upaniṣad ). Ākāśa, said pravahāṇa, is the final refuge all adhere to i.e. parāyaṇam. ( para + ayaṇam = para पर highest , supreme, final , last + ayaṇa अयन place, way, path )

But what ākāśa are they referring to? is it the tattva (element) ? We must look to the brahma-sūtra-s (sūtra 1.1.22) for assistance.

ākāśastalliṅgat ||
this says,
(the word) ākāśa on account of (the) characteristic mark (liṅga) of That (ta or tad i.e. brahman)

What does this say? ākāśa that is being referred to is brahman on account of the characteristic marks of that (brahman). Now does this help us? Yes. The characteristic mark (liṅga) of brahman is unboundedness, without limitation, without constraint. This is a characteristic mark.

But one may say, brahman is more then this, more then this unboundedness. To this I say absolutely right… this ākāśa is one characteristic, a mark like the mark of tilaka¹ worn on the forehead.

praṇām

references & words

More on śikaka & pravahāṇa the śiṣya-s in this story if there is interest.
tilika तिलक a mark on the forehead usually made with coloured earths , sandal-wood , or unguents , often vibhūtiḥ (sacred ash) ; the ornament of anything. More on this notion at this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=26469&postcount=24 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=26469&postcount=24)

devotee
23 October 2009, 11:46 PM
Namaste Yajvan ji,


Scientists say this universe is expanding

Correct, but here the use of the word, "universe" is not really correct. While stating that it is assumed that Space is different from the Universe & they have only the visible universe in mind. If Universe is expanding ... where will it expand, if there is no space to allow this expansion ? So, as rightly pointed out by you ... the universe is expanding within the expanse of the Universe !

Now let's go deeper into this "matter" which appears so different from space. As we all know :

Any matter is made of a number of very small molecules which have the properties of that matter. However, between these molecules there lies a vast space as compared to the size of the molecules. Then these molecules are made up of very tiny atoms & there are very large spaces between the atoms. We go inside the atoms & we find that the actually matter is hardly even .01 % of the total volume of the atom & that is in the form of three sub-atomic particles, i.e. Protons, Electrons & Neutrons. When we break Protons or Neutrons .. we find that mostly there is space & there are still very very tiny particles quarks & anti quarks. We don't know yet but I am sure by breaking these particles, we will get only space finally & nothing else.

So, what is really expanding & where ? The space is "expanding" within space ! Actually nothing is expanding ... how can anything expand within itself ? Still the illusion is there for all of us to see & measure the expansion & the rate of expansion ! That is MAyA !! :)

OM

rkpande
24 October 2009, 03:29 AM
so its turtle, turtles all the way.
some times I wonder, what a beautiful space-ship-earth, in which all of us are cruising through this vast expanse of akasa (without a weighty space suit, of course) and the sun is taking us to places no man has ever gone before, every moment we are passing a point which we will never visit again, not even on its return journey, if it so happens before pralaya. NASA can never ever make such a vast window for their crew to look out.
Does the increasing rate of expansion has any bearing on the effect of nakshtras on earthling's horoscope, i personally think, it is increasingly increasing tamas and negativity all over.

saidevo
24 October 2009, 10:40 AM
Actually there are two kinds of space: vacuity--hollow space, and plenum--filled space. So the concept of expanding universe might indicate expansion of the plenum within the vacuity it is contained in. The corresponding Sanskrit words are AkAsha--vacuity and pUrNa--for plenum.

• Although AkAsha--space is empty of physical matter, it is not dark but A-kAsha--shining (kAsha) all around (A). How can emptiness shine unless it is filled with the light of chaitanya--consciousness of Brahman?

• The visible form of AkAsha is the sky: "AkAshabhavA sarasvatI"--kumAra saMbhavam 4.39.

• AkAsha is one of the nine dravyas recognized in the nyAya-vaisheShika system: pRthivi--earth, ApaH--water, taijaH--fire, vAyuH--air, AkAshaM--AkAsha, kAlaH--time, dik--space, AtmA--Self, and manas--mind.

It is interesting to note that here, space is distinguished from AkAsha. The dik--space of nyAya-vaisheShika indicates the spatial context that distinguishes objects as distinct from one another (plenum perhaps). While direction is the identifer of the spatial context, sound is the identifier of AkAsha.

Another interesting point is that except kAla--time, AkAsha and AtmA which are mahan--large spherical in structure, the other drayvas are atomic--of small spherical in structure.

yajvan
24 October 2009, 12:33 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Does the increasing rate of expansion has any bearing on the effect of nakshtras on earthling's horoscope, i personally think, it is increasingly increasing tamas and negativity all over.
Here is one post that considers the notion of expansion to jyotish.
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2235

praṇām

yajvan
24 October 2009, 12:59 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté saidevo


Although AkAsha--space is empty of physical matter, it is not dark but A-kAsha--shining (kAsha) all around (A). How can emptiness shine unless it is filled with the light of chaitanya--consciousness of Brahman?


Yes, as you mention there is the notion of this 'filled with light' that is consciousness. I rather am fond of this notion as it makes the mark (liṅga) more compelling to consider and experience. Who does not have this ākāśa around them to ponder the close-ness of brahman even for a minute? To look at the space vs. the objects that are in front of you?

It brings new closeness when one looks-up at a perfectly blue sky with no clouds. This is in fact the 84th kārikā found in the Vijñāna bhairava. What occurs? bhairavaṃ vapur-āpnuyāt , says the kārikā i.e. the svarūpa of bhairava.


And what of Silence? Silence is an expression of ākāśa .This akāśa is expressed by khaṁ खं bīja vibration (from ख kha) and this khaṁ is said to be brahman¹.

What wonderful knowledge to consider.


praṇām
1. Reference: Bṛhadaraṇyaka Upaniṣad - Khila khaṇḍa -Oṁ Kham Brāhma Brāhmaṇa

devotee
24 October 2009, 09:36 PM
Namaste Saidevoji,


Actually there are two kinds of space: vacuity--hollow space, and plenum--filled space. So the concept of expanding universe might indicate expansion of the plenum within the vacuity it is contained in. The corresponding Sanskrit words are AkAsha--vacuity and pUrNa--for plenum.

• Although AkAsha--space is empty of physical matter, it is not dark but A-kAsha--shining (kAsha) all around (A). How can emptiness shine unless it is filled with the light of chaitanya--consciousness of Brahman?


With my scientific background, I have done a lot of thinking on space. Somehow, I am convinced that there is nothing like hollow space but it is all consciousness. It does appear hollow/empty because of our sensory limitations. Till now, we have no scientific instrument to sense the presence of consciousness but if we have sometime in future, I am sure we won't find any place which is devoid of consciousness. Logically, it can be concluded that consciousness is present even in inanimate things.

You have translated "dik" as space in your following paragraph. Though I am not an expert in Sanskrit, but from my understanding, the 'dik' is translated as "direction" .... this is also the root word for "DikpAl" (who safeguard the 10 directions), "Digambar" (whose covering are the directions alone), "Digdigant" (in all directions without end) etc. Please correct me, if I am wrong. Why I wanted to point this out is that if my translation is correct then it obviates the idea of two different types of spaces.

OM

saidevo
24 October 2009, 11:51 PM
namaste Devotee.

I am not proficient in Sanskrit either. The word 'dik', of course, primarily indicates 'direction; it is used in comparison for the word 'dish'. But then 'dishyaM' means 'relating to space' and this is the word used in the vaisheShika sUtra. Here is the explanationL



from the paper titled Space, Time and aNu in vaisheShika
by rUpA nArayan (download: http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/roopa51.pdf )

ita idamiti yatastad-dishyaM linggam ||2.2.10||

ita--from this; idam--this; iti--such; yataH--whence; tat--that; dishyaM--relating to space; linggam--mark.

That which gives rise to such (cognition and usage) as "This (is remote, etc.) from this,"--(the same is) the mark of space 2.2.10.

Commentary:
Space is identified through the fact that it can provide the context to describe objects as being separated spatially.

Spatial separation can only apply to matter since eternal dravyas which are incapable of motion can neither be separated nor brought together. Although mind can move, it is invisible. Therefore all that remains in Kanada’s classification of dravyas is matter. The separation is an identifier and the identification is with reference to the observing mind. It is also significant that the displacement of matter is observed relative to another piece of matter.

The essence of this sutra may be rephrased as: mind recognizes space when matter is displaced relative to another piece of matter.


I think we can visualize the scenario as below:

Our ancient RiShis, of course, were well aware of the presence of the chaitanya--consciousness of AkAsha--space as the Absolute Reality and that physical matter, human senses and mind were only gradations of AkAsha.

But then ordinary humans may not be able to equate the filled space on the earth with the outer space of AkAsha or the immanent inner space of objects; so the sages differentiated space into two types: AkAsha--(seemingly) hollow space and dishyam (or dik)--filled space.

We are always conscious of direction and cardinal points of objects residing in the filled space of the dishyam--plenum; perhaps for this reason the same word is used for direction as well as plenum.

rkpande
25 October 2009, 01:49 AM
In the opinion of swami Vivekananda akasa is described , thus
"according to philosophers of India, the whole universe is composed of two materials, one of which they call akasa. It is the omnipresent, all penetrating existence. Everything that has form, everything that is the result of combination, is evolved out of akasa. It is akasa that becomes the sun, the earth........air, liquid....the human body.......every form that we see, every thing that can be sensed, every thing that exists. It can not be perceived; it is so subtle that it is beyond all ordinary perception; it can only be seen when it becomes gross, has taken form. At the beginning of creation there is only this akasa. At the end of the cycle the solids, the liquids, and the gases all melt into the akasa again and the next creation similarly proceeds out of this akasa.
By what power is this akasa manufactured into this universe? By the power of the prana. Just as akasa, so is this prana the infinite, omnipresent manifesting power of this universe......... .out of this prana is evolved every thing that we call energy........ from thought down to nerve current, gravitation, magnetism... The sum total of all forces in the universe, mental or physical, when resolved back to their original state, is called prana. "

The idea of Shiva and shakti?

yajvan
25 October 2009, 12:24 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

I am somewhat familiar with the terms that are being discussed due to some studies in jyotiṣ - as we are concerned with directions and deal with dikbala and dikpāla …

Let me contribute the following, if one has interest:

dik दिक् is from diś to point out , hence we apply this to mean directional.
The second definition of this diś दिश् means quarter or region pointed at , direction , hence the cardinal points.
And we can use the word diśā - direction , region , quarter or point of the compass .Cardinal points which we know:

prācī , east
dakṣiṇā , south
pratici , west
udīcī , north
An additional 4 i.e. 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th are the 'between' directions i.e. NE, SE, SW, NW
And what of up and down or the 9th & 10th ?
the 9th is adhas which means down, yet it sometimes is considered tiryañc. Why this is used I am not sure because it means 'going horizontally'
the 10th is ūrdhvam - anything placed above or higher, therefore upwards
And devotee mentions


this is also the root word for "DikpAl" (who safeguard the 10 directions),


pāl पाल् is to watch , guard , protect , defend , rule , govern + dik दिक् = diś दिश् = means quarter or region , direction , hence the cardinal points ; so dik+pāl to guard/protect and defend in all directions, as devotee astutely offered.
In jyotiṣ we also use a word dikbala - which is then directional strength i.e. dik + bala power , strength , might , vigour , force. Some write digbala. Yet dig = diś = dik and this allows the definition to hold firm with dik.praṇām

brahman
26 October 2009, 12:33 AM
Good discussion.





Ākāśa is infinite!
That is the space for the entire magic or illusion.

These modern sciences have a history of hardly 1000 years.

When we (ancient Indian sciences) have a history 1,700,000 old sciences, who is going to believe modern sciences?

Modern sciences have derived (some) theories based on annamaya kosha only.
They still need to find out the existence of prranamaya kosha, then manomaya, then vijnana and aananadamaya.(refer aitareya Upanishad, taittiriya Upanishad for more on koshas)

The biggest sin a sanatana worshipper can ever do is to compare vedic knowledge with western knowledge.

Also find this :
http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=ml&q=1,750,000++Year+Old+Man-Made+Bridge&btnG=അന്വേഷിക്കുക&meta=&aq=f&oq=


Some westerners still believe that earth is not of spherical shape but flat! :rolleyes:

But some wise westerners say earth is spherical(that too only after 1400 AD or 1450 AD)





.

yajvan
26 October 2009, 10:29 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté



The biggest sin a sanatana worshipper can ever do is to compare vedic knowledge with western knowledge.

how so?

brahman
31 October 2009, 02:08 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté


how so?

Because,
thoughts and sciences other than the Vedantic teachings have been refuted in Brahma sutras(Shri. Sankara Bhashya) this way.
(I don’t think there is a need for detailed explanation.)





Chapt: 2
AVIRODHA ADHYAYA,
Paada 2
Sutras 1-10
Rachananupapattyadhikaranam

(Refutation of the Sankhyan theory of the Pradhana as the cause of the world.)


Chapt: 2
AVIRODHA ADHYAYA,
Paada 2
Sutras 12-17
Paramanujagadakaranatvadhikaranam

(The objection against the view of Vedanta has been answered in the previous Sutra. Now the Vaiseshika system is refuted.)



Chapt: 2
AVIRODHA ADHYAYA,
Paada 2
Sutras 18-27
Samudayadhikaranam

(After refuting the atomic theory of Vaiseshika, the Buddhistic theories are now refuted.)



Chapt: 2
AVIRODHA ADHYAYA,
Paada 2
Sutras 28-32
Nabhavadhikaranam

(The argument against the Buddhistic theory is continued. From this Sutra begins the refutation of Buddhistic Idealists.)


Chapt: 2
AVIRODHA ADHYAYA,
Paada 2
Sutras 33-36
Ekasminnasambhavadhikaranam

(Refutation of the Jaina Doctrine.)


Chapt: 2
AVIRODHA ADHYAYA,
Paada 2
Sutras 37-41
Patyadhikaranam

(Refutation of the Pasupata System.)

Chapt: 2
AVIRODHA ADHYAYA,
Paada 2
Sutras 42-45
Utpattyasambhavadhikaranam: Topic 8

(Refutation of the Bhagavata or the Pancharatra school.)



Anything other than BrahmaVidya is avidya

Ākāśa was indeed a great topic for discussion, but I see people here are diverting towards modern science.




.

nac
31 October 2009, 03:39 AM
Q: what is on the other side of this box or sphere?
A: Well... nothing.
Q: But what is nothing?
A: Hummm , I guess emptiness.
Q: What do we call that emptiness?
A: Space or ākāśa.
Q: And what is ākāśa?
A: More space.
Q: And what then is that space?
A: The continued extension of the universe.
Um... This smacks of Newtonian physics which doesn't apply to modern science any longer. I think the 3D space we inhabit is metaphorically similar to the surface of a planet. When you reach the edge of the universe, you come out from another side.* I'm not sure about this, so you had better ask in a forum where members have an in-depth knowledge of quantum mechanics. You could try the atheists' Dawkins forum: http://forum.richarddawkins.net/ The General Science Discussion people always glad to teach others about the latest developments in science.

*In fact, you won't even see the "edge of the universe" like you don't see the edge of a planet, you just continue on to another location. But the total volume of space keeps increasing at an accelerating rate, comparable to the surface of a planet that's growing larger like a balloon.

brahman
31 October 2009, 04:19 AM
.






Also please refer to the below sutras to know more about the origin of ākāśa.




BRAHMA SUTRA
CHAPT:2
AVIRODHA ADHYAYA
Paada 3
Sutras 1-7
Viyadadhikaranam




.