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TatTvamAsi
04 November 2009, 08:53 PM
Namaste,

Well, what more proof does one need to see the slow but sure degradation of Bharat at the hands of the muslims and other adharmic forces in India including the impotent Congress govt.?

The Jamat-e-Ulema, a muslim herd in India has issued a fatwa (source: http://www.hindustantimes.com/Fatwa-issued-against-Vande-Mataram/H1-Article1-472091.aspx) on the national song Vande Mataram, composed by Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay (source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj1Iy4nRMkc&feature=related).

Of course, the great "secular" Congress govt. didn't utter a word condemning the fatwa!

As a student here in the US, I had to utter the pledge of allegiance; I did not protest even though it included "one nation under GOD" (christian god). Oh, that's right! I am Hindu!

It won't be long before "secular" Indians claim it is okay for Indians, especially students, not singing the national anthem (Jana Gana), let alone Vande Mataram!

Namaskar.

isavasya
04 November 2009, 11:34 PM
This comes as no surprise to me, the greater thing was, as the fatwa was being issued in the presence of the home minister of india, he lavished praises on Islam and Muslims. Alas! our media doesnt makes this as any great issue ,nor condemns this sick and narrow minded fatwa. The only one i pity is mind sets of we Indians who lack self respect to the point that fatwa is launched against national song in presence of home minster and he in turn licks the bottom of those mullahs.


Namaste,





It won't be long before "secular" Indians claim it is okay for Indians, especially students, not singing the national anthem (Jana Gana), let alone Vande Mataram!

Namaskar.

And it wont be long before shariya will be welcomed by we great indians in full force.

sanjaya
05 November 2009, 01:17 AM
As a student here in the US, I had to utter the pledge of allegiance; I did not protest even though it included "one nation under GOD" (christian god). Oh, that's right! I am Hindu!

This ethic seems to underly the problem. As Hindus, we tend not to oppose other peoples' customs and religions. Many Hindus believe that all religions are equally valid. And about the most extremist position you'll ever find is a Hindu who believes that other religions, while not strictly true, can be paths by which one can come closer to Moksha (as Krishna says, those who worship via other religions are really offering worship to him). Islam, on the other hand, asserts that there is one direct way to God (Islam), two circuitous ways to God (Christianity and Judaism), and then a whole bunch of ways that don't lead to God at all (we Hindus fall under this category). Our value system requires us to tolerate beliefs that we do not subscribe to, that's why we can pledge allegiance to one nation under the Christian God, and even worship God in a Christian church, though we don't believe in many of the things taught by Christianity. Islam, on the other hand, requires its adherants to suppress other belief systems. What you have here is a tolerant religion competing with a restrictive religion. Add to that the fact that very many Indian Muslims are tolerant and peaceful despite some of the harsher teachings of their faith. We can't just declare all Muslims to be enemies, since we'd then be sweeping away the good with the bad.

I would hate to see Hinduism turn into a fundamentalist faith the way much of Islam has. It's always disheartening to see Hindus in India attacking Muslims in riots. This isn't what Hinduism teaches. I guess I'm not proposing any particular solution. But while we must certainly take a stand against Islamic extremism, I hope that we won't have to give up our ethic of tolerance in the process.

TatTvamAsi
07 November 2009, 07:04 PM
What


This ethic seems to underly the problem. As Hindus, we tend not to oppose other peoples' customs and religions. Many Hindus believe that all religions are equally valid. And about the most extremist position you'll ever find is a Hindu who believes that other religions, while not strictly true, can be paths by which one can come closer to Moksha (as Krishna says, those who worship via other religions are really offering worship to him). Islam, on the other hand, asserts that there is one direct way to God (Islam), two circuitous ways to God (Christianity and Judaism), and then a whole bunch of ways that don't lead to God at all (we Hindus fall under this category). Our value system requires us to tolerate beliefs that we do not subscribe to, that's why we can pledge allegiance to one nation under the Christian God, and even worship God in a Christian church, though we don't believe in many of the things taught by Christianity. Islam, on the other hand, requires its adherants to suppress other belief systems. What you have here is a tolerant religion competing with a restrictive religion. Add to that the fact that very many Indian Muslims are tolerant and peaceful despite some of the harsher teachings of their faith. We can't just declare all Muslims to be enemies, since we'd then be sweeping away the good with the bad.


What does any of what you have written above have to do with the fatwa issued by the pedophile worshipers (muslims) on singing Vande Mataram?


It's always disheartening to see Hindus in India attacking Muslims in riots. This isn't what Hinduism teaches. I guess I'm not proposing any particular solution. But while we must certainly take a stand against Islamic extremism, I hope that we won't have to give up our ethic of tolerance in the process.

Oh my GOD! Are you serious? Either you a muslim, christian, or a pseudo-secular "Hindu" or not Indian at all! Since when have "Hindus attacked muslim in riots" you moron? Hindus have DEFENDED themselves by fighting muslim aggressors in all the situations that the rat-bastard western and Indian media talk about.

Tell me, if someone broke into your house and attacked your wife or children, and you fought with the intruder, would you consider yourself an extremist or fundamentalist or intolerant? That is the exact analogy of what is going on in India with Hindus! Instead of lambasting the anti-Indian PUSSlims and telling them to get out of Bharat, you are rambling about some nonsense.

This yet again proves what a danger these pseudo-secular Indians/Hindus pose to India! :rolleyes:

sanjaya
07 November 2009, 08:39 PM
What does any of what you have written above have to do with the fatwa issued by the pedophile worshipers (muslims) on singing Vande Mataram?

I'm trying to illustrate the problem of a tolerant religion (Hinduism) with a religion that rejects coexistence (Islam). It's analogous to the problem of democracies which protect free speech even for the local fascist party. It's difficult to tolerate those who don't reciprocate your tolerance. Would you not agree?




Oh my GOD! Are you serious? Either you a muslim, christian, or a pseudo-secular "Hindu" or not Indian at all! Since when have "Hindus attacked muslim in riots" you moron? Hindus have DEFENDED themselves by fighting muslim aggressors in all the situations that the rat-bastard western and Indian media talk about.

Tell me, if someone broke into your house and attacked your wife or children, and you fought with the intruder, would you consider yourself an extremist or fundamentalist or intolerant? That is the exact analogy of what is going on in India with Hindus! Instead of lambasting the anti-Indian PUSSlims and telling them to get out of Bharat, you are rambling about some nonsense.

This yet again proves what a danger these pseudo-secular Indians/Hindus pose to India! :rolleyes:

No, I assure you that I am both Indian and Hindu (though I was born in America, if this makes any difference to you). I am no Christian or Muslim. I'll admit that for most of my life I haven't been terribly religious, but this is something that I've changed recently. I perceive from your usage of profanity and suggestios of militancy that you've been pretty deeply offended by Muslims. Given the poor history that India has had with Muslims for over half a century, this is quite understandable. But might I suggest that perpetuating the cycle of retaliation isn't going to serve the interests of Hindus in India. Let's say the Indian Hindus continue to defend themselves via counter-riots. These people will at some point need to return home, and then they will live in fear of further retaliation from the Muslims. Ultimately, we have nothing to gain. We have all seen the effects of Islamic violence throughout the world. Fanatical Muslims have made it clear that they are willing to die for their religion. Our religion, on the other hand, contains no injunction for us to engage in holy war, and I would prefer not to have to die for Hinduism. It seems like a very bad idea to fight a war with fanatics, especially if we fight according to their guerilla tactics.

As far as getting Muslims out of India goes, I'd be as happy as the next person if Indian Muslims would all return to their ancestral religion. However, we can't simply kick these people out, anymore than America can expell, say, it's black population. These people are Indian citizens. And most of them aren't all that bad. Based on the Indian Muslims that I know, the fanatics represent a relatively small proportion of Indian Muslims. How can one expel Indian citizens from India? Where would they go? This doesn't seem like a viable or humane option.

Forgive me if I've misunderstood you here.

TatTvamAsi
08 November 2009, 01:13 PM
I'm trying to illustrate the problem of a tolerant religion (Hinduism) with a religion that rejects coexistence (Islam). It's analogous to the problem of democracies which protect free speech even for the local fascist party. It's difficult to tolerate those who don't reciprocate your tolerance. Would you not agree?

I agree with that and that is what I'm saying. When one ideology is of the mindset of domination of all other ideologies and peoples, it is simply foolish to expect to peacefully coexist with them. And, this begs the point that India is a land only for Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs, and even atheists; pretty much anyone who is not insistent on imposing their ideology on others and trying to convert others through coercion or subterfuge as the muslims and christians are doing in India currently.






No, I assure you that I am both Indian and Hindu (though I was born in America, if this makes any difference to you). I am no Christian or Muslim. I'll admit that for most of my life I haven't been terribly religious, but this is something that I've changed recently. I perceive from your usage of profanity and suggestios of militancy that you've been pretty deeply offended by Muslims. Given the poor history that India has had with Muslims for over half a century, this is quite understandable. But might I suggest that perpetuating the cycle of retaliation isn't going to serve the interests of Hindus in India. Let's say the Indian Hindus continue to defend themselves via counter-riots. These people will at some point need to return home, and then they will live in fear of further retaliation from the Muslims. Ultimately, we have nothing to gain. We have all seen the effects of Islamic violence throughout the world. Fanatical Muslims have made it clear that they are willing to die for their religion. Our religion, on the other hand, contains no injunction for us to engage in holy war, and I would prefer not to have to die for Hinduism. It seems like a very bad idea to fight a war with fanatics, especially if we fight according to their guerilla tactics.

As far as getting Muslims out of India goes, I'd be as happy as the next person if Indian Muslims would all return to their ancestral religion. However, we can't simply kick these people out, anymore than America can expell, say, it's black population. These people are Indian citizens. And most of them aren't all that bad. Based on the Indian Muslims that I know, the fanatics represent a relatively small proportion of Indian Muslims. How can one expel Indian citizens from India? Where would they go? This doesn't seem like a viable or humane option.

Forgive me if I've misunderstood you here.

The fact that you are born in America and presumably have lived there for most of your life (?) makes your understanding of the predicament with the muslims/christians in India superfluous at best. I too live in the States and have so for quite a while. It is only after coming here that the dangers these two rotten ideologies (islam/christianity) pose to India and Hinduism have become so apparent, at least to me.

Yes, I too have "muslim" friends. However, they see the dangers that fanaticism poses not only to non-muslims, but the so-called 'moderate' muslims themselves! Take this analogy; if you have a bowl of rice and you add two drops of poison, would you still eat from that bowl of rice claiming that only a 'very small part (minority) of that bowl has poison'? This is the same thing, and in India, it is not such a small minority! There are about 170 MILLION muslims along with some 40 MILLION christians! That is 1 out of 6 people either muslim or christian. Even if 1% of that population is militant, and that's extremely low, it is still 2 MILLION people who possess a great threat to India, Indians, and Hinduism. It is literally impossible to sequester these militants so the best bet is to declare India a Hindu country where only Hindus (and other Dharmic faith followers) can vote, own land, and own businesses! This will be a start to a 'non-violent' catharsis of India however I guarantee that the sub-human muslims/christians will start rioting and murdering Hindus. This is when the Indian Army should be sent in to shoot at sight and clear India of this toxic garbage called islam/christianity/communism and their followers.

Educating Hindus of the imminent threat is the first step!

JAI HIND!

sanjaya
08 November 2009, 08:58 PM
The fact that you are born in America and presumably have lived there for most of your life (?) makes your understanding of the predicament with the muslims/christians in India superfluous at best. I too live in the States and have so for quite a while. It is only after coming here that the dangers these two rotten ideologies (islam/christianity) pose to India and Hinduism have become so apparent, at least to me.

Living in America retards one's understanding of the problem of Abrahamic religions in India, but coming here heightened your awareness. I don't mean any offense, but I'm having trouble following your reasoning. Pehaps you could elaborate.


Yes, I too have "muslim" friends. However, they see the dangers that fanaticism poses not only to non-muslims, but the so-called 'moderate' muslims themselves! Take this analogy; if you have a bowl of rice and you add two drops of poison, would you still eat from that bowl of rice claiming that only a 'very small part (minority) of that bowl has poison'? This is the same thing, and in India, it is not such a small minority!

You may want to be careful with analogies like this. Take this observation for whatever it's worth, but Christians use precisely the same reasoning to support their eternal condemnation doctrine (they use a drop of dirt in water instead of poison in a bowl of rice). That's where they get the idea that "one sin is enough to send you to hell." Doesn't this seem a bit absolutist to you?

Having said all that, I don't think anyone would object to purging the poison from the food supply, so to speak. By all means get rid of militants by putting them in prison. But what do you do with the rest of the Muslims? Most of them aren't militant, at least not in India. And very few of the Christians are militants, especially the ones in the South who've been there for over a thousand years.


There are about 170 MILLION muslims along with some 40 MILLION christians! That is 1 out of 6 people either muslim or christian. Even if 1% of that population is militant, and that's extremely low, it is still 2 MILLION people who possess a great threat to India, Indians, and Hinduism. It is literally impossible to sequester these militants so the best bet is to declare India a Hindu country where only Hindus (and other Dharmic faith followers) can vote, own land, and own businesses! This will be a start to a 'non-violent' catharsis of India however I guarantee that the sub-human muslims/christians will start rioting and murdering Hindus. This is when the Indian Army should be sent in to shoot at sight and clear India of this toxic garbage called islam/christianity/communism and their followers.

Europeans in America used to do the same things to blacks: no suffrage, no right to own property, and limited freedom to do business. Europeans in the middle ages also did this to Jews. This lead to such atrocities as the inquisitions, ghettos, and pogroms. I don't think God approves of this kind of policy whether it's done in America or India. Surely you're not suggesting pogroms against Indian Muslim and Christians, but the policy that you've described above will result in such things. Hinduism is widely known throughout the world as a peaceful religion. Whereas Christians have acquired many of their converts through economic oppression and physical violence, India has withstood the onslaught of over a thousand years of missionaries, and yet only 2.3% of the population is Christian. Muslims have occupied the nation, and only 13.4% of Indians are Muslim. Hindus don't need a government goon squad to protect us from conversion, don't you agree? And as far as violence goes, purging India of non-Hindus would be a greater violence than whatever we accuse the terrorists of committing. Not to mention that it would be a major human rights violation which would provoke a strong response from other countries.

You live in the United States. Imagine that America decides to solve the terrorism problem by getting rid of all American Muslims. Only problem is that most Americans can't differentiate between Indian Muslims and Indian Hindus. Would you appreciate being swept away along with the Muslims? Most certainly not! I imagine this is how peaceful Indian Muslims would feel if we decided to take away their basic human rights because others in their population are violent.

TatTvamAsi
11 November 2009, 03:09 PM
Living in America retards one's understanding of the problem of Abrahamic religions in India, but coming here heightened your awareness. I don't mean any offense, but I'm having trouble following your reasoning. Pehaps you could elaborate.

Yes, my wording was a bit obtuse so I apologize. What I meant is that while living in India and having muslim, christian, and Hindu friends, it is quite difficult for one to analyze the situation objectively or dispassionately if you will. That is why after coming to the US and being detached to the goings on in India to some extent, at least politically speaking, one can, for myself anyway, understand the imminent threat and danger of christian missionaries, muslim fanaticism, and separatists along with their communist counterparts.

In a nutshell, after witnessing the events and actions of such people, albeit from a far off land, the threats they pose to India's stability as well as Hinduism's is quite startling to say the least.




You may want to be careful with analogies like this. Take this observation for whatever it's worth, but Christians use precisely the same reasoning to support their eternal condemnation doctrine (they use a drop of dirt in water instead of poison in a bowl of rice). That's where they get the idea that "one sin is enough to send you to hell." Doesn't this seem a bit absolutist to you?

Your analogy holds no water for the following reason: christians base their ideology on theory and fluff whereas my assumption, along with millions of other Hindus', is based on the ACTIONS/EVENTS of the PUSSlims and dead-jew worshipers (christians). It is quite hilarious how pseudo-secular Hindus (not you) try to preach to concerned Hindus that WE Hindus must learn to coexist peacefully with others! What temerity! It is the exact opposite that is actually going on so we have had it up to our necks! If muslims, christians, and communists cannot and will not coexist peacefully with us, then chuck them out of India! It is that simple. You are trying to twist my statement to look as if I want anyone non-Hindu to be driven out of India; that is simply not the case. The simple truth is that the probability of those three ideologies (islam/christianity/communism and their followers) cannot coexist even with each other, let alone peacefully with other ideologies such as Hinduism etc.!


Having said all that, I don't think anyone would object to purging the poison from the food supply, so to speak. By all means get rid of militants by putting them in prison. But what do you do with the rest of the Muslims? Most of them aren't militant, at least not in India. And very few of the Christians are militants, especially the ones in the South who've been there for over a thousand years.

Yes, not all the muslims/christians/communists are militant, yet. The state, or country, owes its citizens, that is the majority, in this case the Hindus, fundamental rights such as safety and rights of property/business ownership. When any of these rights are in jeopardy or the general well-being of a society is in any way threatened, by a person or otherwise (ideology), the latter must be purged (aka dealt with accordingly). We must NOT sideline the majority, the backbone of any country, to appease the minority, in this case the ungrateful, treacherous, and barbaric muslims, christians, and communists. Therefore, the duty of any country must be to protect its majority citizens and their fundamental (unalienable if you will) rights!

Having said that, obviously, if India declares itself a Hindu country for Hindus, by Hindus, and of Hindus, there will be widespread riots; this is where the army will have to step in. Yes, people will be killed. Yes, women will be raped. However, the misfortune of a few is negligible in comparison to the safety and satisfaction of many.


Europeans in America used to do the same things to blacks: no suffrage, no right to own property, and limited freedom to do business. Europeans in the middle ages also did this to Jews. This lead to such atrocities as the inquisitions, ghettos, and pogroms.

The comparison of muslims/christians in India to the blacks in the US doesn't hold water again. This is because the blacks were literally enslaved and brought here by the colonizers, the whites. Indians (Hindus) were forced with the occupation of the muslims and the christians. Hindus never asked them to come nor did they bring them to India. There is a tremendous difference and that simply renders the comparison you have made invalid.

Hindus were murdered, over 80 MILLION over a period of 1000 years and India as a country was robbed blind of its riches by the untouchables (muslims/christians). Now they have audacity to label India a 'poor country'. haha.

We are not harassing the minorities in India. It is the other way around. Hence, we just want to be rid of them. In other words, we want ALL the christians, muslims, and communists to leave India and never return. We wish no bloodshed. They actually wish bloodshed of Hindus and are trying to demolish her culture daily. What surprises me is that you and others like you can't seem to grasp that fact and keep saying that Hindus shouldn't target muslims etc.?!? LOL..


I don't think God approves of this kind of policy whether it's done in America or India. Surely you're not suggesting pogroms against Indian Muslim and Christians, but the policy that you've described above will result in such things. Hinduism is widely known throughout the world as a peaceful religion. Whereas Christians have acquired many of their converts through economic oppression and physical violence, India has withstood the onslaught of over a thousand years of missionaries, and yet only 2.3% of the population is Christian. Muslims have occupied the nation, and only 13.4% of Indians are Muslim. Hindus don't need a government goon squad to protect us from conversion, don't you agree? And as far as violence goes, purging India of non-Hindus would be a greater violence than whatever we accuse the terrorists of committing. Not to mention that it would be a major human rights violation which would provoke a strong response from other countries.

First, as mentioned before, I don't wish for such pogroms. If India and Hindus have to RETALIATE, then by all means do so. Don't stop us from retaliating.

The numbers you provided are thoroughly incorrect. There are far more muslims and in certain states, they are majority or close to majority. It is highly dangerous and christians with their insidious tactics pose an even greater threat due to their colossal monetary support from churches around the world and brain-dead zombie workforce (the missionaries).

Response from other countries? So what? Should India be afraid of that? Can't India make the best decision for her people in the long run and face whatever criticism from whomever? We have an immensely strong military and no country would dare attack India outright. It would be the end of the world as a nuclear winter would set in and well, you know the rest.


You live in the United States. Imagine that America decides to solve the terrorism problem by getting rid of all American Muslims. Only problem is that most Americans can't differentiate between Indian Muslims and Indian Hindus. Would you appreciate being swept away along with the Muslims? Most certainly not! I imagine this is how peaceful Indian Muslims would feel if we decided to take away their basic human rights because others in their population are violent.

This is another silly analogy because it won't be the common bible-thumping, beer drinking American who actually kicks the muslims out; it would be law enforcement and/or the national guard. Thank goodness for IDs and oh yes, the 2nd amendment. ;) It is easy to differentiate muslims and Hindus, one is human, the other is not!

JAI HIND!

Namaskar.

eriko
17 November 2009, 02:14 AM
TatTvamAsi,

I can understand you feelings. But it is not good to jump onto retaliation. What ever that you have said can also be through peaceful policies and a bit of manipulation. If you are so keen on driving the muslim out. though I can't agree with you since the possibility seems so less, use the law.

1. First, form and RTI group, that challenges the so called secular policies favouring Muslims.

2. Second, integrate Kashmir into India, which means that the income of the Kashmirians as the national income and not there self income. Allow the Indians (non-kashmirians to buy propersty and live there.)

3. Educate Hindus that asserting their faith is not being associated with saffron. Join politics, change the perception of Hindu ideology. Lay emphasis on the greatest Hindu virtue of tolerance.

4. There are many places in the elections where the only the seats for Muslim/Christian candidates are reserved. File court application and challenge it.

5. Next, end the Haj grant given by the govt. to muslim pilgrims. And if they don't oblige then Hindus should be given funds to visit Kailash.

6. Then, we have to integerate our own people together that means the bringing untouchables into the mainstream.

7. End the OBC, and other such reservations. Because most of them have the term Hindu attached to it.

Do you know why Muslims are fighting for reservations? It is because in the constitution it has been underlined that that a dalit would get reservation conditioned that he is a Hindu.

The point is everything is connected. You cannot allienate Hindu expression of speech from the constitution. Use the law. That is what the Hindus don't do. The law is there in front of you. There are just too many loopholes.

I am not saying that all this is possible but at least if we start thinking on the on the lines that I have stated above, we might be able to something substantial. Bloodshed would only result in killing of our own people. And then only a minority of Hindus like yourself (this is not an accusation but a fact) stick to the ancient Hindu glory. Many Hindu youngsters are not too keen on it.

Tolerance is something that is emmbedded in the Hindu blood. We should retaliate but only after the Muslims are in arms against us and war has been declared but before that let just concentrate on asserting our right the legal way. RTI, RTI that is what I keep on shouting all the time. RTI is a gift to Hindus.

Don't fight the ideology but work on nullifying or equating the preferential treatement given to the muslims on the basis of so called secularism. Their dominance over India would automatically decrease and we would be able to co-exist peacefully in India.

I bet there are many groups are doing this but they need support.

sanjaya
17 November 2009, 04:37 AM
Eriko, you bring up some excellent points. There are ways to stop Muslim aggression in India that don't involve resorting to the same tactics as Muslims. You seem to have some insights into the finer points of Indian law that I do not.

eriko
18 November 2009, 07:13 AM
Eriko, you bring up some excellent points. There are ways to stop Muslim aggression in India that don't involve resorting to the same tactics as Muslims. You seem to have some insights into the finer points of Indian law that I do not.

Actually there are many other things that need to de done. The problem is not Muslim/Christian ideology or their unethical conversions but the reluctance of the Hindus residing in India to bring Hindu Dharma in the mainstream and make it their priority. Hindus just don't exert their right to freedom of expression of healthy religion. Either you get those extremist or the people who tag you as saffron.

Use the law. But it needs patience, money and good lawyers. But atleast perception about the Hindus would surely start to change. If you really want to do something, this is the right way. RTI (Right to Information Act) is the best thing in the world.

Hindus need to connect their religion to nationality not in an extremist way but as fact and their human right. The need is the right approach. Many Hindus treat nation and religion as completely nothing to do with each other thing, which is not the case with Muslims and Christians and that is why they get away with their extremist policies.

It has to be realized that after water, food and cloth the right to express religion should also be given priority. The thing is, people think that religious needs are not essential but this thought has to be changed.

SANT
19 November 2009, 05:48 AM
he thing is, people think that religious needs are not essential but this thought has to be changed.


Religious needs??
Can you list these religious needs.
Does it involve having more astrologers, more vaastu people, more pandits or religious tour guides telling you -'100 ka darshan 500 ki pooja',
or does it involve something good as not eating beef, telling the truth,being more honest to you country,thinking rationally,charity,integrity.
Please tell me.

eriko
20 November 2009, 12:26 AM
Religious needs??
Can you list these religious needs.
Does it involve having more astrologers, more vaastu people, more pandits or religious tour guides telling you -'100 ka darshan 500 ki pooja',
or does it involve something good as not eating beef, telling the truth,being more honest to you country,thinking rationally,charity,integrity.
Please tell me.

Emotional religious needs. The right to assert one's religion. It is a neccesity for a free mind to think independently. Things like that. Look it depends on how you interpret this. This is a very individual thing.

TatTvamAsi
20 November 2009, 10:37 PM
Eriko,

Although your approach seems plausible, it will simply not work. Here is why:

1.) Forming an RTI group is like going to a muslim gathering and preaching about SD or some other religion. Either they will completely ignore you or worse, will attack you physically threatening violence.

2.) Integrate Kashmir? And how do we do that? Spread our arms wide and ask them to hug us? Give me a break! Of course we want ALL of Kashmir to be integrated properly, and by that we mean through force, the only language those animals (muslims) understand.

3.) I agree about education and especially making Hindus themselves aware of the crisis. However, there is just one hitch! 80% of so-called Hindus themselves will take arms against us under the guise of secularism and 'equal-rights' etc. They are far too myopic to see the inherent threat and danger of keeping these mlecchas (christians/muslims/communists) in India.

4.) File an 'application with the court'? Have you ever been to India? Do you know how court cases are handled there? If I filed a case such as this, I would either be lambasted by the secularists or it would take about 10 years for the first hearing to come up; perhaps even both! Going to courts in India will accomplish nothing unless the MAJORITY of the people see eye-to-eye on this matter. And that simply is NOT the case, at least currently.

5.) And what would happen when Hindus protest against the Hajj grants by the government? There will widespread riots by those subhuman animals (muslims) causing murder, havoc, and mayhem. In the end, there will be billions of dollars in damage while things regarding the grants remain at square one. In India, with the mindset of people there currently, the only form of government that can plausibly accomplish anything regarding these matters has to be a "TOP-DOWN" bureaucracy. The people themselves are far too apathetic, impotent, powerless, and ultimately phlegmatic in matters such as these. Therefore, only a very dedicated and strong leadership can accomplish anything; keeping force as a last resort.

6.) "Untouchables into the mainstream"? Since when were 'untouchables' kept "OUT" of the mainstream? Oh, you mean pedophiles, murderers, dacoits, and rapists? Well, tell me one society that integrates these kind of sociopaths and then we can talk about integration of untouchables. Currently, the only 'discrimination' (if it can even be called that) comes into importance during marriage and alliances. Just as an aristocratic son of a senator will not marry a daughter of the senate office janitor, people whose occupations vary widely will unlikely comingle. That is the fact of nature.

7.) I agree completely with you on abolishing the reservation system! It is a scourge and is taking its toll on the country. Hopefully IITs will still maintain their rigor in regards to education.

Look, I agree with your approach. It is just that I am highly skeptical of its success, especially in the short term: to rid India of these treacherous vermin (muslims/christians/communists).

I am all for settling this amicably. Let us see how far that will get us! However, it is foolish not to be prepared!

SATYAMEVA JAYATE!

JAI HIND!

Namaskar.


TatTvamAsi,

I can understand you feelings. But it is not good to jump onto retaliation. What ever that you have said can also be through peaceful policies and a bit of manipulation. If you are so keen on driving the muslim out. though I can't agree with you since the possibility seems so less, use the law.

1. First, form and RTI group, that challenges the so called secular policies favouring Muslims.

2. Second, integrate Kashmir into India, which means that the income of the Kashmirians as the national income and not there self income. Allow the Indians (non-kashmirians to buy propersty and live there.)

3. Educate Hindus that asserting their faith is not being associated with saffron. Join politics, change the perception of Hindu ideology. Lay emphasis on the greatest Hindu virtue of tolerance.

4. There are many places in the elections where the only the seats for Muslim/Christian candidates are reserved. File court application and challenge it.

5. Next, end the Haj grant given by the govt. to muslim pilgrims. And if they don't oblige then Hindus should be given funds to visit Kailash.

6. Then, we have to integerate our own people together that means the bringing untouchables into the mainstream.

7. End the OBC, and other such reservations. Because most of them have the term Hindu attached to it.

Do you know why Muslims are fighting for reservations? It is because in the constitution it has been underlined that that a dalit would get reservation conditioned that he is a Hindu.

The point is everything is connected. You cannot allienate Hindu expression of speech from the constitution. Use the law. That is what the Hindus don't do. The law is there in front of you. There are just too many loopholes.

I am not saying that all this is possible but at least if we start thinking on the on the lines that I have stated above, we might be able to something substantial. Bloodshed would only result in killing of our own people. And then only a minority of Hindus like yourself (this is not an accusation but a fact) stick to the ancient Hindu glory. Many Hindu youngsters are not too keen on it.

Tolerance is something that is emmbedded in the Hindu blood. We should retaliate but only after the Muslims are in arms against us and war has been declared but before that let just concentrate on asserting our right the legal way. RTI, RTI that is what I keep on shouting all the time. RTI is a gift to Hindus.

Don't fight the ideology but work on nullifying or equating the preferential treatement given to the muslims on the basis of so called secularism. Their dominance over India would automatically decrease and we would be able to co-exist peacefully in India.

I bet there are many groups are doing this but they need support.

eriko
04 December 2009, 11:17 PM
1.) Forming an RTI group is like going to a muslim gathering and preaching about SD or some other religion. Either they will completely ignore you or worse, will attack you physically threatening violence.

Why? I don't think we should be concerned about what they feel. The whole point is that we should have the law behind us. I don't think anybody woudl be in teh power to oppose teh judgement by Supreme court, that is if teh matters become too worse.


2.) Integrate Kashmir? And how do we do that? Spread our arms wide and ask them to hug us? Give me a break! Of course we want ALL of Kashmir to be integrated properly, and by that we mean through force, the only language those animals (muslims) understand.

There are actually many things that need to be done. The point is step by step approach. I am sure their would be many restrictions like trade and other such thing. Look I don't know the what all is there. But we can start with letting non-Kashmirians have property there. Small small things. I don't know. I think we can only know what to do by asking someone who knows what all the non-kashmirians are not supposed to do.


3.) I agree about education and especially making Hindus themselves aware of the crisis. However, there is just one hitch! 80% of so-called Hindus themselves will take arms against us under the guise of secularism and 'equal-rights' etc. They are far too myopic to see the inherent threat and danger of keeping these mlecchas (christians/muslims/communists) in India.

But that is what we will be doing as well. I don't find anything wrong with empowering the muslims with western education. At least we shoould aim at empowering the muslim women (especially). So that they will bring more tranparency in Islam. Why are so adamnat at driving the non-hindus out when you know that it is not practically possible?



4.) File an 'application with the court'? Have you ever been to India? Do you know how court cases are handled there? If I filed a case such as this, I would either be lambasted by the secularists or it would take about 10 years for the first hearing to come up; perhaps even both! Going to courts in India will accomplish nothing unless the MAJORITY of the people see eye-to-eye on this matter. And that simply is NOT the case, at least currently.
But we can start with simple things. Example: according to the constitutions of India only Hindus are required to register their marriage while Muslims and Christians are not subjected to this rule.


5.) And what would happen when Hindus protest against the Hajj grants by the government? There will widespread riots by those subhuman animals (muslims) causing murder, havoc, and mayhem. In the end, there will be billions of dollars in damage while things regarding the grants remain at square one. In India, with the mindset of people there currently, the only form of government that can plausibly accomplish anything regarding these matters has to be a "TOP-DOWN" bureaucracy. The people themselves are far too apathetic, impotent, powerless, and ultimately phlegmatic in matters such as these. Therefore, only a very dedicated and strong leadership can accomplish anything; keeping force as a last resort.


That is what it is. Hindus have to show some intersest in politics. Do you really think that Sangh Parivar is doing anything? All they are doing is deterioting our chances of an equall footing in the law. With its stupid and unpractical ideologogy the BJP is loosing votes. What more they are not even enrolling young blood into their army. We need to shift and find practical and affordable solution to the present crisis. We need innovative ideas. We need youth and a better ideology.


6.) "Untouchables into the mainstream"? Since when were 'untouchables' kept "OUT" of the mainstream? Oh, you mean pedophiles, murderers, dacoits, and rapists? Well, tell me one society that integrates these kind of sociopaths and then we can talk about integration of untouchables. Currently, the only 'discrimination' (if it can even be called that) comes into importance during marriage and alliances. Just as an aristocratic son of a senator will not marry a daughter of the senate office janitor, people whose occupations vary widely will unlikely comingle. That is the fact of nature.

No I did not mean that. Of course untouchability is very much abolished. But yesterday I was reading this newspaper where this pro-muslim Hindu was talking about how there is crisis among the Hindus. And that the dalits will fight back. Either they will convert to other religions. You and I both know that there is no such problem but we need to tell this people. Especially people like the guy who was interviewed. People with such idelogy form a good proprtion of our population, you do agree with me on this?


Look, I agree with your approach. It is just that I am highly skeptical of its success, especially in the short term: to rid India of these treacherous vermin (muslims/christians/communists).

I know that this won't really work in the short term. But we want long term stability in the country. We should be aware of every factor that affects are autonomy as Hindus and we should do everything in our power lawfully to get rid of it.


I am all for settling this amicably. Let us see how far that will get us! However, it is foolish not to be prepared!

Of course, we can always lift arms.

Sorry I couldn't reply sooner. I was busy with school.

LALKAR
08 December 2009, 05:46 AM
Namaste All,

Why fight within us

ofcourse Sanjaya and Eriko are youngsters even Tatv G needs support of Youngsters, But experience is also important .

This is Kaliyug, Dharm will not Rule, I think Tats Tuvm Asi G, will admit that.
But we must fallow the path of Dharm for Moksh.
Dharm Prachar. I think Eriko hinted at it.

Bhakti and Karm both are equally important