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sunyata07
06 November 2009, 11:49 AM
Namaste,

Having given some thought to the nature of rebirth recently, I have been pondering over this quote from Gita when Krishna tells Arjuna that "whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body... that state he will attain without fail" and trying to understand it properly. I am already aware that the mode of the new body will be determined by one's past actions (karma) and, as the text from the Gita I have just referenced, one's state of mind. But it sounds almost as if the text suggests that if a man, dying on his deathbed, considers up until the last moments of his life who and what he is and what may lie in the great beyond after he draws his last breath, will be reborn as a human in the next life. But what if this man has spent much of his life committing the most heinous of crimes, generating bad deeds and karma for himself and others... would his merely contemplating his life as a human and remembering his being human save him from say becoming reborn as a lower form of consciousness, such as an animal? Also, which would be more indicative of the nature of soul's next body - his karma or his bhava, or is it a mixture of both?

yajvan
06 November 2009, 05:42 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté sunyata07


. But what if this man has spent much of his life committing the most heinous of crimes, generating bad deeds and karma for himself and others... would his merely contemplating his life as a human and remembering his being human save him from say becoming reborn as a lower form of consciousness, such as an animal? Also, which would be more indicative of the nature of soul's next body - his karma or his bhava, or is it a mixture of both?

A reasonable assessment. Yet in MHO in the last seconds of ones life , of those that are not at peace with themselves, there is not much contemplation going on, other then struggling to remain alive.

It is the person infused with sattva that will have little problems remembering the name of the Lord, or his iṣṭa-devatā. During the last few minutes ( I am told) the jñānendriya-s ( organs of cognition) start to shut down. This in turn brings havoc, fear and desperation. Not much clear thinking goes on to remember things of choice. Yet to the wise that is seated in the SELF, all the commotion occurs outside of his/her level of peace. S/he remains grounded in peace.

Let me ask you do do this... you are alive and awake, fully capable of making choices of your actions and thoughts. Let me ask you to keep the Lord's name in your mind/presence for a day, or 1/2 day. Is this possible for you to do this? Then compare that to one that is just about to pass away.
What is possible to do and think from one that is fully alive and can make choices to one that is about to pass... the lamp of the will is about to be extinguished. What will that person be thinking ( the one of crimes, mischief, etc)?

praṇām

Eastern Mind
06 November 2009, 06:08 PM
Namaste:

Interesting topic, not just of the Gita, but just in life (or death, as that is the topic) .

Personally I believe the animal birth to be somewhat of a myth,although I have been told it can happen, only in rare circumstances. They are twofold: when severe alcoholism or drug addiction has had a grip, and in tragic sudden accidents. In both cases mental confusion, albeit for different reasons, is the state of mind. In the first case, the addiction has led to unclear thinking. In the second case, it is because of a lack of time for preparation.

This preparation is a key factor. In my personal experience, (not much, really, just observing my own parents and other elderly people) most people dieing of old age, or incurable disease seem at peace with themselves. Even those with atheistic tendencies have a sense of 'I accomplished what I could" and enter pre-death consciousness in a relatively clear frame of mind. There is great relaxation as the minute approaches in a natural way. It is not a fight to the bitter end, as some would say. Now this is just my own view from personal experience and from the tradition I follow.

Aum Namasivaya

devotee
06 November 2009, 08:23 PM
Namaste Sunyata,



Having given some thought to the nature of rebirth recently, I have been pondering over this quote from Gita when Krishna tells Arjuna that "whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body... that state he will attain without fail" and trying to understand it properly. I am already aware that the mode of the new body will be determined by one's past actions (karma) and, as the text from the Gita I have just referenced, one's state of mind. But it sounds almost as if the text suggests that if a man, dying on his deathbed, considers up until the last moments of his life who and what he is and what may lie in the great beyond after he draws his last breath, will be reborn as a human in the next life. But what if this man has spent much of his life committing the most heinous of crimes, generating bad deeds and karma for himself and others... would his merely contemplating his life as a human and remembering his being human save him from say becoming reborn as a lower form of consciousness, such as an animal? Also, which would be more indicative of the nature of soul's next body - his karma or his bhava, or is it a mixture of both?

Quite a valid & thought provoking doubt. :)

I shall offer my opinion here which is not much different from what Yajvan ji has offered.

It is not as easy as it seems. My father used to tell a few real life stories of dying people ... some people cannot utter a simple word like, "RAM" at that time. And at the last moment, I have myself seen people getting more attached to things they loved than anything else. Lord Krishna says, "SadA TadbhAvbhAvitah" in the same verse i.e. at the last moment he will have only those thoughts which he has nursed his whole life.

Now what is this, "BhAv" or "thoughts" ? Does it mean that if he thinks of wealth he will be born as a wealthy person. No, this verse doesn't say so. He will be born with the same BhAv i.e. with attachment to wealth. It also doesn't guarantee that he will be born as a human being. A dog may have his own idea of wealth, say "lots of juicy bones".

On birth in other species (mentioned by EM), it should be much more than what has been expressed. Otherwise, a dog born as dog has hardly any scope to improve & human being however, cruel & selfish will have a guaranteed life as a human being every time. Apart from Hindu scriptures which speak of such births, it is explained in detail in Buddhist's scriptures too. The Tibetan Book of Living & Dying gives a detail picture of what happens after death, as has been told by the masters. According to this book, the JivAtma after death, roams here & there before its time to take birth again ripens. At that time, it gets attracted to thoughts related with a particular species etc. & thus gets attracted to the waiting womb.

OM

rainycity
07 November 2009, 02:03 AM
wouldn't it make sense that people who live like animals are reborn as animals? they may be bad or barbaric people by civilised peoples' standards but they are born into a place where people live like animals so they are basically a product of their environment. Most people in the world probably live like this. Also animals which are domesticated and have a relationship with humans (pets) are probably likely to be reborn as humans. Maybe that accounts for population growth (domestication of animals)?

devotee
07 November 2009, 02:50 AM
wouldn't it make sense that people who live like animals are reborn as animals? they may be bad or barbaric people by civilised peoples' standards but they are born into a place where people live like animals so they are basically a product of their environment. Most people in the world probably live like this. Also animals which are domesticated and have a relationship with humans (pets) are probably likely to be reborn as humans. Maybe that accounts for population growth (domestication of animals)?

Yes, if God thought like you ! :)

God, by definition, is just ( as he is omnipotent, there is no incentive for him to be unjust). If what you say is true, then those who are born rich & born in wealthy countries will always be born like that & those who are born in poverty will always be born poor ! This is no justice. This defies the Karma theory. Your birth is decided by your Karmas i.e. action. In fact, it would be correct to say that your birth in a particular environment is decided by your past actions & not that your present environment decides your next birth !

OM

kd gupta
07 November 2009, 05:15 AM
Namaste,

Having given some thought to the nature of rebirth recently, I have been pondering over this quote from Gita when Krishna tells Arjuna that "whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body... that state he will attain without fail" and trying to understand it properly. I am already aware that the mode of the new body will be determined by one's past actions (karma) and, as the text from the Gita I have just referenced, one's state of mind. But it sounds almost as if the text suggests that if a man, dying on his deathbed, considers up until the last moments of his life who and what he is and what may lie in the great beyond after he draws his last breath, will be reborn as a human in the next life. But what if this man has spent much of his life committing the most heinous of crimes, generating bad deeds and karma for himself and others... would his merely contemplating his life as a human and remembering his being human save him from say becoming reborn as a lower form of consciousness, such as an animal? Also, which would be more indicative of the nature of soul's next body - his karma or his bhava, or is it a mixture of both?

Shruti says….punah pranah punaratma , means there is reincarnation , what the body is taken , that is other matter .
One very interesting scientific proof I tell you . When there is some heavy storm , earthquake etc. some animals specially dogs start barking in a very strange voice and this is due to wavelengths they receive . Now if there is a death case to be happened in vicinity , the dog in adjacent area will start barking in a very strange voice as if he is seeing some special thing usually like seeing another stout dog .

Shruti says that the master of death , Yamraj has two dogs with him see…

Shwanau chaturakshau shabalau , te shwanau yam rakshitarau chaturakshau

Means your four eyed stout dogs , O, Yamraj .

rkpande
07 November 2009, 05:57 AM
A person dies when his brain is dead and the brain works without oxygen for about 3 to 4 minutes, after the heart stops. IMHO, like Lord Buddha who under the bodhi tree saw all of his previous incarnations, during these 3 to 4 minutes, the person sees his entire life and perhaps the veil of maya is removed and could clearly decide what he wants to become in his next life so that he can partially neutralise his bad karma.

Eastern Mind
07 November 2009, 07:42 AM
Shruti says….punah pranah punaratma , means there is reincarnation , what the body is taken , that is other matter .
One very interesting scientific proof I tell you . When there is some heavy storm , earthquake etc. some animals specially dogs start barking in a very strange voice and this is due to wavelengths they receive . Now if there is a death case to be happened in vicinity , the dog in adjacent area will start barking in a very strange voice as if he is seeing some special thing usually like seeing another stout dog .

Shruti says that the master of death , Yamraj has two dogs with him see…

Shwanau chaturakshau shabalau , te shwanau yam rakshitarau chaturakshau

Means your four eyed stout dogs , O, Yamraj .


Perhaps dogs have the ability to see auras. They can certainly sense fear.

Aum Namasivaya

sunyata07
08 November 2009, 10:50 AM
Yet in MHO in the last seconds of ones life , of those that are not at peace with themselves, there is not much contemplation going on, other then struggling to remain alive.



What is possible to do and think from one that is fully alive and can make choices to one that is about to pass... the lamp of the will is about to be extinguished. What will that person be thinking ( the one of crimes, mischief, etc)?

Namaste, Yajvan. That's a good observation. I find that it's actually quite true that people who have led a more wanton or destructive lifestyle will be much "body-conscious" than most other people. Perhaps their impending death may even heighten their sense of body consciousness, so that in the last few minutes of their life they will think of things that relate to how they can be affected on a physical level: "Will I burn in hell?" or "When I die [the body] will I cease to exist?" Depending on the number and severity of transgressions, some individuals will be more prone to thinking back over their lives than others. Some will probably be too rooted in fear for living in the moments before death that they will not think back to what their lives have meant, what kind of choices have led up this to moment. Then again, others as you have pointed out, will most likely be unable to think of anything but the "judgement" they face when they die (if there is such a belief in their minds).

Last of all, and this is a very extremist example I am using, you may have the psychopath who works for his whole life for the benefit of himself. This character honestly has no guilt or regrets about what he has done to himself or to others. He will commit horrific acts of murder on his closest family members without feeling sorrow or regret, and probably has never really had a "friend". Living in this state of no-guilt and focus only for himself, what state of bhava might he have at the time of this death? Perhaps he has atheist views, and has no care whether there is a hereafter or not. It's an extreme example, I am giving, but for hypothetical reasons I am wondering about if when I read about how bhava can determine the next birth.



In my personal experience, (not much, really, just observing my own parents and other elderly people) most people dieing of old age, or incurable disease seem at peace with themselves. Even those with atheistic tendencies have a sense of 'I accomplished what I could" and enter pre-death consciousness in a relatively clear frame of mind.



Now what is this, "BhAv" or "thoughts" ? Does it mean that if he thinks of wealth he will be born as a wealthy person. No, this verse doesn't say so. He will be born with the same BhAv i.e. with attachment to wealth. It also doesn't guarantee that he will be born as a human being. A dog may have his own idea of wealth, say "lots of juicy bones".

On birth in other species (mentioned by EM), it should be much more than what has been expressed. Otherwise, a dog born as dog has hardly any scope to improve & human being however, cruel & selfish will have a guaranteed life as a human being every time. Apart from Hindu scriptures which speak of such births, it is explained in detail in Buddhist's scriptures too. The Tibetan Book of Living & Dying gives a detail picture of what happens after death, as has been told by the masters. According to this book, the JivAtma after death, roams here & there before its time to take birth again ripens. At that time, it gets attracted to thoughts related with a particular species etc. & thus gets attracted to the waiting womb.

Namaste EM and Devotee,

Interesting that you say you think the animal rebirth is more of a myth than anything. I agree with you in that I am inclined to think rebirth into higher and lower planes is not as simple as some people have believed. I don't believe it's as straightforward as being reborn into an animal of slaughter after one has been cruel to animals in the previous human life. If you consider the example in my last sentence of the individual who has been cruel to animals and who unneccesarily commits himsa to creatures he sees as being "below" him, or perhaps killing them for his sport. I would imagine this mentality would not just be confined to his being unkind to animals; let us say he behaves in this manner for his entire childhood without proper instruction or admonishment from parents or guardian figures. If he is allowed to nurture this destructive side, would his bhava eventually lead him to commit himsa against his fellow human beings, and maybe even his family?

Haha... "juicy bones" - well, it's a good analogy, I guess. I have often wondered what will happen to my dog after she dies. Eventually rebirth as a human, I hope. But maybe I will begin another discussion on animal rebirth another day. For now, I think I'd rather focus on human rebirth as humans are capable of (as far as we know) self-questioning. While I have not read the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, I have read somewhere before that Tibetan Buddhists believe that the period of time between death and rebirth lasts for 49 days. Another interesting question might be how much of its past life can a jivatman remember, or well its memories disappear the moment the prana leaves the body entirely?

OM Shanti

Shanti
19 November 2009, 07:45 PM
This is a very interesting topic. My question is what happens when a person dies by an act of violence, murder.
I find it hard to believe that in such a circumstance, where the death is not peaceful, that one can focus on contemplating towards the next life. If their thoughts are fearful, does that mean they will live a fearful next life?

Eastern Mind
19 November 2009, 08:06 PM
Shanti:

From my understanding, the soul would be lost or confused in the in-between state, or astral plane. They would get disorientated, just as we would on the physical plane, if we were in the middle of a gunfight, or something. This disorientated disembodied soul doesn't know what to do. One choice is to hang about in that area and stay confused. (ghosts) Another is to jump into the first living thing that seems logical that comes by, be it human or animal, like dog or cat.

But a lot would depend on that persons seed karmas. (Obviously this method of death itself is their karma.) Eventually, even if it takes an odd birth or two, the soul regains its orientation, and would get to eventually choose another body, not just taking pot luck.

Another very interesting thing I have heard is that there are often physical signs on the next body that is related to the death in some way. A large birth mark might indicate where the person was shot, for example.

I know this isn't much but it is food for thought.

Aum Namasivaya

atanu
20 November 2009, 12:57 AM
Another interesting question might be how much of its past life can a jivatman remember, or well its memories disappear the moment the prana leaves the body entirely?
OM Shanti

Namaste Sunyata07,

Regarding the concept of some fixed time, I would suggest that time is not a fixed thing at different consciousness states. In deep sleep, time becomes a non-entity.

Regarding transmigration etc., I hope the following verses can provide with the ultimate knowledge. The individual self is nothing but Brahman, when identified with Buddhi, Manas, organs of perception etc. and with their attachments. This bag of knowledge (or ill-knowledge) transmigrates. The accumulated results of karma of this knowledge entity is embedded in self, when it departs and takes up another suitable body. Else, the Jnanis would not be omniscient.

Brihadarayanaka


IV-iv-1: When this self becomes weak and senseless, as it were, the organs come to it. Completely withdrawing these particles of light, it comes to the heart. When the presiding deity of the eye turns back from all sides, the man fails to notice colour.


IV-iv-2: (The eye) becomes united (with the subtle body); then people say, ‘He does not see’. (The nose) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not smell’. (The tongue) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not taste’. (The vocal Organ) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not speak’. (The ear) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not hear’. (The Manas) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not think’. (The skin) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not touch’. (The intellect) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not know’. The top of the heart brightens. Through that brightened top the self departs, either through the eye, or through the head, or through any other part of the body. When it departs, the vital force follows; when the vital force departs, all the organs follow. Then the self has particular consciousness, and goes to the body which is related to that consciousness. It is followed by knowledge, work and past experience.


IV-iv-3: Just as a leech supported on a straw goes to the end of it, takes hold of another support and contracts itself, so does the self throw this body aside – make it senseless – take hold of another support, and contract itself.


IV-iv-4: Just as a goldsmith takes apart a little quantity of gold and fashions another – a newer and better – form, so does the self throw this body away, or make it senseless, and make another – a newer and better – form suited to the manes or the celestial minstrels, or the gods, or Viraj, or Hiranyagarbha, or other beings.


IV-iv-5: That self is indeed Brahman, as also identified with the intellect, the Manas and the vital force, with the eyes and ears, with earth, water, air and the ether, with fire, and what is other than fire, with desire and the absence of desire, with anger and the absence of anger, with righteousness and unrighteousness, with everything -–identified, in fact, with this (what is perceived) and with that (what is inferred). As it does and acts, so it becomes; by doing good it becomes good, and by doing evil it becomes evil – it becomes virtuous through good acts and vicious through evil acts. Others, however, say, ‘The self is identified with desire alone. What it desires, it resolves; what it resolves, it works out; and what it works out, it attains.’


IV-iv-6: Regarding this there is the following pithy verse: ‘Being attached he, together with the work, attains that result to which his subtle body or mind is attached. Exhausting the results of whatever work he did in this life, he returns from that world to this for (fresh) work’. Thus does the man who desires (transmigrate). But the man who does not desire (never transmigrates). Of him who is without desires, who is free from desires, the objects of whose desire have been attained, and to whom all objects of desire are but the Self – the organs do not depart. Being but Brahman, he is merged in Brahman.
----------------------------
Not to make it long but to show the role of karma vis-a-vis jnana, the following passage is shown.


IV-iv-22: That great, birthless Self which is identified with the intellect and is in the midst of the organs, lies in the ether that is within the heart. It is the controller of all,------------ (it is but proper) that the sage is never overtaken by these two thoughts, ‘I did an evil act for this’, ‘I did a good act for this’. He conquers both of them. Things done or not done do not trouble him.
--------------------


Till a man ( Brahman identified as of manas-thinker and Budhhi-knower) thinks "I did this so I will get that", he will transmigrate suitably.


Om

devotee
20 November 2009, 07:02 AM
Namaste all,

Thanks Atanu, for a nice insight into this mystery after death. :)

I would like to share what I think :

The verse says, "sadAtadbhAvbhAvitah". So, the thoughts that the dying man has nurtured all his life comes to grip him. When a man dies a violent death does he stop thinking immediately ? Actually, the soul doesn't go immediately leaving the body. It is said that he remains attached with the body, the family & the place he was living in for a few days i.e. he remains bound to this earthly life. Hindus believe that he leaves for the astral world only on the 12th day (as I remember).

During this whole period, he lives among thoughts which he was always attached to. Initially, it is difficult for him to accept the fact that he is dead he has to leave everything behind. This attachment doesn't leave him & the type of attachment causes a hell or heaven for him or a good birth or going to abode of gods. If we take this all into account, Lord Krishna's words become clearer. IMHO, even if the death is violent or otherwise, this period becomes important in deciding the future for the Jiva.

Moreover, this violent death by accident or otherwise, is not really just by chance. This all depends to some extent upon one's own karma.

Regarding remembering past life, as Maharishi Yogananda says in "Divine Romance" :


Memory after death cannot survive under the following conditions :

a) If there is attachment to the body
b) If there is attachment to past possessions, family, or friends
c) If there is strong entanglement in bad Karma & if one has not risen above the effects of both good & bad actions

This is God's grace to the soul for giving him a fresh life without any baggage of attachment of his past life otherwise that would not only result in an unbearable painful life for the being but will also not allow him to grow. All attachments whether good or bad are our fetters which keep us bound. The Yogis who are free from all attachments, after death, can decide to be born or otherwise ... they sometimes keep their memories alive in their next birth too.

OM

yajvan
20 November 2009, 08:07 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

On this notion of death and what comes after, the The kaṭha upaniṣad and the conversation between Yama talking to naciketas may give you some insights.


praṇām

Shanti
23 November 2009, 06:42 PM
Shanti:


Another very interesting thing I have heard is that there are often physical signs on the next body that is related to the death in some way. A large birth mark might indicate where the person was shot, for example.


Yes, I've heard this too. It's very interesting indeed!


Hindus believe that he leaves for the astral world only on the 12th day (as I remember).


This is what I learned too, except I learned until the 13th day. When the special prayer is done for the deceased's soul. Can't remember the name exactly, similar to Shraddha.


Now my questions turn to the yearly and monthly shraddha rituals that many practice for deceased ancestors. Such as the ritual to offer water as they get thirsty on their journey. If the body is eternally in limbo, then I can understand the need for this, but I don't really understand it if the body should reincarnate at least at some point.

devotee
23 November 2009, 08:34 PM
Namaste Shanti,


This is what I learned too, except I learned until the 13th day. When the special prayer is done for the deceased's soul. Can't remember the name exactly, similar to Shraddha.

This is Shraddha only. The whole rituals of Shraddha after the death is spread over 13 days.


Now my questions turn to the yearly and monthly shraddha rituals that many practice for deceased ancestors. Such as the ritual to offer water as they get thirsty on their journey. If the body is eternally in limbo, then I can understand the need for this, but I don't really understand it if the body should reincarnate at least at some point.

Actually, there is no means to verify whether any of our ancestors are still there in Pretloka or otherwise. So, it is safer to follow this practice than not to follow. There is another angle to it too. While offering water, pinda etc. to our ancestors, it is not done only for our parents or grand parents. Every person has a very long lineage & one doesn't know who after death is still stuck in Pretyoni. So, this is for all such ancestors. Again, if you do it properly, these are offered not only to person's own ancestors but for anyone who is there in the Pretloka & he has no one to offer Pinda/water etc.

I think that explains the importance of this ritual.

OM

Shanti
24 November 2009, 12:39 PM
Actually, there is no means to verify whether any of our ancestors are still there in Pretloka or otherwise. So, it is safer to follow this practice than not to follow. There is another angle to it too. While offering water, pinda etc. to our ancestors, it is not done only for our parents or grand parents. Every person has a very long lineage & one doesn't know who after death is still stuck in Pretyoni. So, this is for all such ancestors. Again, if you do it properly, these are offered not only to person's own ancestors but for anyone who is there in the Pretloka & he has no one to offer Pinda/water etc.

I think that explains the importance of this ritual.

OM

Thank you for your explantation, it does make more sense to me now.

sunyata07
26 November 2009, 12:01 PM
Namaste,

Thanks to everyone's contributions. I have finished reading the Katha Upanishad, and there are some interesting points I came across. One passage in particular that struck me was when Yama says:
"Far beyond their eyes, hypnotized by the world of sense, opens the way to immortality. "I am my body; when my body dies, I die." Living in this superstition they fall, life after life, under my sway." (Katha Upanishad, 1:2:6)

I think it is in agreement with what Krishna was telling Arjuna about bhava. In this case, a person who is of the mindset I am whatever my physical body is, a set of neural circuits and nothing more, will naturally be extremely body-conscious. If he believes there is nothing more to himself than what he would believe to be his one life on earth then he well might he be reborn in the next life very much unchanged! I wonder how it is that humans can gradually learn from their past lives and change their way of thinking?

SANT
27 November 2009, 10:08 AM
delet

Satyaban
02 December 2009, 08:10 PM
Sunyata ji

I think, considering my one or two buckets of knowledge, that there are other options.

One being the person who dies with Lord Shiva's name on his lips is liberated. Granted Krishna may have been thinking of another name.

Two, which I think is much more likely, is that the spiritual evolution we attain in this life is not lost in the next.

Merely having pleasant thoughts of what the next life could be can not preclude karma. Indeed there are arrows in the quiver but there are already arrows on the way from previous lives.

I do think the atman started at the lowest life form and progresses through evolution and we became homo sapien sapiens, if that is the current term. I do not think it is a stretch to consider lower life forms as evolving souls. The essence of God is the same in everything don't the Vedas say.

This is what I believe but that I believe the "Gita" to be allegory and an excellent "how to book" and not scripture should be understood.

Om Namah Shivaya