Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

[heartfully]

Namaste! Is it possible to be both Sufi and Hindu? From what I am learning, Sufism seems easier to blend with Sufism than perhaps even with Islam.

I have recently read that the Mujuaddidi (sp) Naqshbandi has been influenced a lot by Hinduism. I'd love to know more about that.

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste,

I think from a perspective of Sanatana Dharma it would be okay. however if you take the islamic position it would not be so much okay. It depends on what Sufis you mean. Even the Naqshbandi Mujadidi sufis differ. You have some that are very lax and open, then you have others who are very strict Muslims who hold fast the Quran and way of Muhammad. Sufism of Shaykh Zulfiqar Ahmad would be very strict to the Quran and Sunnah and if you believed in God in a way that expresses Kufr (disbelief) such as believing God is everywhere and in everything and we are God then such a belief would not be acceptable to Sufis of that Naqshbandi Mujadidi Order.

Now you may be able to get away with Naqshbandi Haqqanis (those who follow Nazim al-haqqani). They seem to accept the old sufis sayings of there are many paths to Allah. However, even amongst them you may have disagreements. Perhaps Nazim al-haqqani wouldnt mind but sufis of a less calibre might take offense to "paganistic" views of Hindus as they would put it frankly.

it is hard to make them compatable since some Sufis are strict adherence to the close minded Quran and way of Muhammad. Those who are more about direct experience might not care because they have experienced God in all things and sees God everywhere and has perfected their vision of Wahdat al-wujud (Oneness of Being)

OM
-juan

[DavidC]

You could find out in the (Sri) Guru Granth Sahib.

[Abominable Snowman]

Interesting question, as another member said from a strictly Islamic standpoint no, you are to be a Muslim, period. From a Hindu standpoint, I think there would be no problem. I personally love Rumi and have always loved Sufi teacings and figures. I do find it interesting that certain sects of Islam particularly Shi'a Ismaili seems to borrow certain ideas from the dharma. If you were going to be a Sufi first and a serious one at that, then you would be Muslim and a Muslim sticks to Islam and only Islam.

[Onkara]

You could find out in the (Sri) Guru Granth Sahib.
The SGGS represents Sikhism rather than Sufism. Although the SGGS and Sikhism could offer a bhakti path to non-dual moksha, which is similar but not the same thing that is attractive about Sufism. :)

Heartfully.
As others say. A Muslim or Sufi can only recognise Allah and the Prophet. You could probably read Hindu philsophy to support your knowledge but not recognise it as the truth.

[DavidC]

The SGGS represents Sikhism rather than Sufism. Although the SGGS and Sikhism could offer a bhakti path to non-dual moksha, which is similar but not the same thing that is attractive about Sufism. :)

Nevertheless, it is the integration of Sanatana Dharma and Islam. Surely there were some more intellectual Sikhs. I can think of some: the Sant Mat gurus, who did not just teach bhakti, but meditation.

[Onkara]

Nevertheless, it is the integration of Sanatana Dharma and Islam. Surely there were some more intellectual Sikhs. I can think of some: the Sant Mat gurus, who did not just teach bhakti, but meditation.
Hi DavidC
That is very true and a good point. Thanks for clarifying.
I find the blend of Sanatana Dharma and Islam quite beautiful; there appears to me to be something good dualists and non-dualists alike.

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste all: IMHO, this only works on a mystical level, not on the outer level. Sufis are mystics, and not exactly encouraged by the general Islamic population. Every religion has a mystical side to it, Sanatana Dharma to a greater degree than most.

So within that inner side there are more commonalities. Same with the fundamentalist side. A fundamentalist Moslem has a lot more in common with a fundamentalist Christian than he does with a Sufi mystic.

On the outer level it is nonsense. Of course an individual can give himself any label he wants like Vedantic spiritualist, Hindu-Christian, Sufi-Hindu. But do the leaders of faith subscribe to this. No, for the most part, unless they are those universalists who wash everything down so much there`s not much left. Just my opinion.

Aum Namasivaya

[Abominable Snowman]

Namaste all: IMHO, this only works on a mystical level, not on the outer level. Sufis are mystics, and not exactly encouraged by the general Islamic population. Every religion has a mystical side to it, Sanatana Dharma to a greater degree than most.

This is true however if you will permit me, let me make this illustration. Qabbalah is the mystic heart of Judaism however traditionally only those who have studied the Torah and the Tanakh for a great number of years are able to begin to study Qabbalah. Those who practice it, also are very frum and Orthodox. My ex-girlfriend whom was Sufi and from Iran told me something similar, that while they practice a mystical side of X, they also are observant X. I am not saying I am right but I think Qabbalists and Sufis probably hold the same view. So, if you are Sufi then you are Muslim and are to be "all you can be." Realistically lay people probably can't meet up to the perfect model or the level of observance of religious leaders but that is the hole you're shooting for.

[Eastern Mind]

AS: I'll withdraw from the discussion for lack of knowledge. Probably shouldn't have gotten into it in the beginning. Just conjecturing on about nstuff I know nothing about.

Aum Namasivaya

[Harjas Kaur]

Nevertheless, it is the integration of Sanatana Dharma and Islam. Not really. All the "Sikh" Gurus were descended from Hindu families. Even the term "Sikh" Gurus is a misnomer because the word "Sikh" comes from Sanskrit "shisya" which means disciple. So it is like calling the Guru's as disciples which makes no sense. There can't possibly be a "Sikh" Guru although to differentiate the Sikh sampradaya that is what occurs. What is misunderstood is that Sikhism developed during the Mughal oppression, during a time of forced conversions of Hindus.

http://www.nriinternet.com/NRIsikhs/Ten_Guru/5th_Guru_Arjan_Dev/Guru_Arjan_dev_1.JPG
Guru Arjan Dev Ji's martyrdom


Saikh Ahmad, the head of the Naqashbandt order (Sufi) at Sirhind and a leader of the revivalist movement of Islam in India, got upset at the influence of the Guru among men of both the communities. He had access to the court of Jahangir. But, probably the chief reason that upset the Emperor was that the Guru had blessed Khusro and helped him monetarily while the latter had rebelled against Jahangir. The local administration was naturally aware of the growing Sociopolitical strength and influence of the Guru. Chat this incident rankled in the mind of emperor Jahangir, is evident from his own statement recorded in his autobiography. He wrote that he had ordered the execution by torture of Guru Arjun unless he embraced Islam, because the Guru had raised aloft the standard of holiness and many Hindus and Muslims had foolishly become his followers.http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/gurus/nanak5.html
Guru Ji was brought to Chandu's house where he was given no food or water all night. In the morning, Chandu told Guru Arjun Saheb Ji that if he would accept his marriage proposal he would convince Jahangir to let him live. The Guru refused the offer. Guru Arjun Saheb Ji was brought to the court where he was given three choices:
1) Accept Islam (Convert to Islam)
2) Add some of Muhammed's hymns to the Aad Granth Saheb Ji
3) Be killed
The Guru refused the first two options and chose to die. Guru Arjun Saheb Ji was then tortured. http://www.gurmatstudies.com/articles/5guru1.htmSo we see from the history the "TRUE" relationship between Sikhs and Islam. Sikhism represents a form of militant Hinduism that survived by waging war on the Mughals/Muslims to stop the oppression of the Hindu population.

What happened was the Guru's saw the true spirituality in the Bhagats primarily Vaishnav and some Sufi. Bhagat bani is included in Shri Guru Granth Sahib. People don't understand that those Sufi bhagats whose bani appears in Guru Granth Sahib were themselves chela of Vaishnav bhaktis whose ideal of attaining liberation was to jap the Name of Lord Ram. There is literally no teaching of Islam or even mention of their Prophet Mohamed anywhere in the Sikh scripture. It teaches that a Muslim should be a good Muslim and a Hindu should be a good Hindu because the Gurus were TOTALLY AGAINST the need for conversion. The Sikh Gurmantr Naam of God is Waheguru/Vahiguru. Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas tells us the V = Vishnu/Vasudeyv, the H = Har Krishna, the G = Gobinda, the R = Ram. So the Sikh Naam of God as Waheguru is purely Vaishnav in origin although as true Hindus Gurbani says the name of Allah is also another Naam of God as is Shiva.

Because of the time period, many Arabic and Farsi words became part of the Punjabi language and hence are part of the Guru Granth Sahib which was literally an explanation of the Vedas, Shastras and Puranas from the Sanskrit and Bhagat bani from Braj Bhasha to common dialect of Punjabi which the common and even illiterate people could understand. The Gurus are credited with development of Gurmukhi script to print Punjabi language and for teaching literacy to the Sikhs. That degree of education was clear attempt to keep Sikhs distinct from Islamic conversion.

When the British Raj came to power in India, the last kingdom they defeated was the Sikhs. They managed to enlist the Sikh Army into British Sepoys and began by dividing the community. First began mischief to divide the communities along religious lines. The British influenced Singh Sabha movement was behind mass conversions of Dalits and Muslims into Sikh religion during late 1800's to early 1900's. This coincided with rejection of Hinduism, beginning of purge of Hindu concepts out of Sikh "religion," banning historical documents which expressed obvious Hindu teachings such as Janam Sakhis, Sau Sakhis, Gur Bilas, Prem Sumarag, and Panthic contentions over Shri Dasm Granth; questionable alterations such as mention of head shaving ceremony for Guru mentioned in Guru Arjun's Ramkali hymn in debate between authenticity between Banno bir or Kartarpur bir; removal of Murthis of Krishna, Vishnu and Durga from Golden Temple in 1906, etc.

So for these reasons Sikhism is modernly equated as a synthesis of Hinduism and Islam. It is not. Sikhism is a sect of Hindu religion by it's very origin and teachings and has some superficial resemblance with Islam only due to cultural and linguistic context of the time co-existing as oppressed religion under Mughal Raj. Even alleged strict "Abrahamic" monotheism of Sikhs can be proved as false from Gurmat itself, the teachings of the Gurus. I would like to know what sect of Islam, including Sufis would agree to the ideology below.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
jae ho jaanaa aakhaa naahee kehanaa kathhan n jaaee ||
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.
~SGGS Ji ang 2

[Harjas Kaur]

I have recently read that the Mujuaddidi (sp) Naqshbandi has been influenced a lot by Hinduism. I'd love to know more about that.Yes, this is true, however not just the Naqshbandi sect but all of Sufism, and even perhaps to some smaller degree Islam itself. Does this seem amazing? Allow me to prove such a radical interpretation.

http://www.ethnicnewz.org/files/imagecache/Display_Secondary/files/photos/Afghanistan%20film%20-%20Buddha%20Collapsed%20Out%20of%20Shame%20-%20by%20Hana%20Makhmalbaf.jpg
Muslim Mughals are descendents of the Mongols who were originally Buddhist and hence sanatan.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QfVWU-2pVL4/R4I-xl25wuI/AAAAAAAAAYY/KbqxuWiKd08/s400/An+Afghan+local+stands+next+to+a+rock+effigy+of+the+Buddha+partly+destroyed+by+militant+Islamists.jp g
Ancient Buddha images are all over Afghanistan although they are being destroyed in a deliberate suppression by Taliban.


In 630, Muhammad and his followers returned to Mecca as conquerors, and he destroyed the 360 idols in and around the Kaaba. While destroying each idol, Muhammad recited [Qur'an (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an) 17:81 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/017.qmt.html#017.081)] which says "Truth has arrived and falsehood has perished for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaabaAll Muslims face towards Mecca to say their obligatory prayers. And the focal point they face to in Mecca is the Kaaba. Inside the Kaaba are broken fragments of the black stone called Al-hajar Al-aswad. Anyone can clearly see the fragments are housed in a yoni.

http://www4.worldisround.com/photos/0/339/468.jpg
Muslims adoring Al-hajar Al-aswad fragments in the Kaaba.

http://facesofmohammed.freehostia.com/muhammad/black-stone.jpg
Mohammed with the Black Stone, clearly a linga.

http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/tours/datta_kshetra_yatra/eluru/vishveshvara_shiva_linga.jpg
Shiva Linga and yoni.

[Abominable Snowman]

I wouldn't link the ka'aba to the yoni simply because they share a similar shade of stone. During the 'jahiliyyah' it did house "Pagan," statues and so on but past that everything was smashed and discarded once Islam was embraced by the people of Arabia. Also, those pictures are not very revealing, it's like saying people who live in Britain are influenced by Paganism because the stone and woodhenge still stand there. Also, you can't say that Islam generally has been influenced by the dharma, it's only within Shi'a Islam and Ismaili Islam specifically do you find influences of the dharma within their teachings. Aside from this there is essentially no influence from my understanding.

[Harjas Kaur]

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/files/2007/12/haj-kaaba.jpg http://www.bbc.co.uk/dorset/content/images/2006/11/29/haj_eid2_203x152.jpg
During Hajj pilgrimage to the Kaaba, Muslims purify and wear seamless white cloth. This is a clear Vedic remnant

http://www.puja.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/vastradanam.jpg
Brahmin priests wearing White cloth for Vedic worship.

As a form of worship, Muslims circumambulate/tawaf the Kaaba seven times in counterclockwise direction. This kind of circumambulation is also ancient Vedic practice. Taking seven steps around a fire is marriage practice.


Saptapadi (Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit): सप्तपदी, saptapadī, pronounced /ˌsəptəˈpəðiː/Hindi: सात फेरे, sāt phéré, lit. seven circumambulations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumambulation)) is an important rite (Sanskrit, Hindi: rītī) of a Hindu marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_wedding) ceremony. In the seven steps, the bride and groom circumambulate a consecrated fire seven times, reciting specific vows with each circuit (Sanskrit: parikrama). Vows made in the presence of the sacred fire (Sanskrit: agni) are considered unbreakable, with Agnideva (lit. God/Lord of Fire; c.f. Latin cognates: ignis+deus) held as both witnessing and blessing the couple's union. lit. seven steps; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SaptapadiSo the question has long arisen, is the Kaaba a Hindu temple? There is an inscription said to be found which lists Hindu King Vikramaditya as founder of religion which was found in vicinity of the Kaaba in Mecca.

Was the Kabah thus the “house of the Moon-god”? Yes.
Did the name “Allah” eventually replace that of Hubul as the name of the Moon god?Yes.
Did they call the Kabah the “house of Allah”? Yes.
Were al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat called “the daughters of Allah”? Yes.
Yusuf Ali explains in fn. 5096, pg. 1445, that Lat, Uzza and Manat were known as “the daughters of God [Allah]”
Did the Qur’an at one point tell Muslims to worship al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat? Yes. In Surah 53:19-20.
Have those verses been “abrogated” out of the present Qur’an? Yes.
What were they called? “The Satanic Verses.” http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-24443.0.html
We give below translations of some of the āpri mantrās.
May Iļā, Sarasvatī, Mahī, the three Goddesses of delight come to the seat, unharmed (1.13.9). May Sarasvatī affecting our thought dhiyam and Goddesses Iļā and Bhāratīsvadhaya. (2.3.8) who carry all to their goal sit on our altar seat and guard our house of refuge by the self-law of things
In unison may Bhāratī with her muses of invocation bhāratibhih, Iļā with gods, men and Agni, Sarasvatī with her powers of inspiration sārasvatebhirvāk, come down to us; may the three goddesses be seated, (7.2.8) and (3.4.8). http://www.vedah.com/org2/literature/rig_veda/gods_of_veda/bharati_mahi_ila.htmlThree goddesses of delight, one named Ila. Ila, Ala, Amba Bhavani. Three goddesses Allah commanded men to worship, Bis millah. Ila. Allah. Ancient female gods who are represented by moon whose symbol is crescent and who is goddess of war.



Basmala (or Bismillah,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmala#cite_note-W1-0) Arabic بسملة) is an Arabic language noun which is used as the collective name of the whole of the recurring Islamic bismi-llāhi ar-raḥmāni ar-raḥīmi. This phrase constitutes the first verse of every "sura" (or chapter) of the Qur'an (except for the ninth sura), and is used in a number of contexts by Muslims. It is recited several times as part of Muslim daily prayers, and it is usually the first phrase in the preamble of the constitutions of Islamic countries. phrase بسم الله الرحمن الرحيمbismi-llāhi ar-raḥmāni ar-raḥīmi"In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmala
The crescent and disk were used frequently for Allat and Allah. The disk represented the sun, and the crescent was the moon, so Allat was the moon goddess, which was the pagan theology all over the Middle East. This is why it is impossible to claim that Allah was the moon god. He represents the sun, or the central phallic "point of light," to compliment the receiving moon. The crescent moon is vaginal in context...

In one inscription, Allat is associated with "rhm," which is Rahman, after vowels are supplied. This shows that Allat was at times the consort of Rahman, who migrated to India as Brahman, and to Mecca, to end up in Muhammed's Koran as an alternate name for Allah. Allat is called "lover of Baal," and in a Ras Shamrs inscription Allat is identified as the goddess of war.http://www.balaams-ass.com/ALHAJ/page15.htmThe pre-Islamic religion of Arabia had 360 gods, the central of which were the Sun and the Moon. The goddess of the moon was a war god, ie, Durga. Her consort therefore must be Lord Shiva. If this is the ancient religion of Arabia, then yes, Kaaba is an ancient Hindu temple.

[Harjas Kaur]

I wouldn't link the ka'aba to the yoni simply because they share a similar shade of stone.You are entitled to your opinion. Kaaba means "square."

This is the Kaaba.
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/saudi-arabia/images/mecca/resized/kaba-cc-m-soli.jpg

Inside the Kaaba is the Al-hajar Al-aswad, fragments of the black stone kept in a vaginal shaped structure resembling a yoni.The black stone would represent a linga, not a yoni. And yes, Shiv Ji's linga is traditionally depicted as black. It is not by color alone but by the clear linga shape of the Al-hajar Al-aswad in conjunction with it's representation in a yoni shaped container, the question of historical and pre-Islamic religious traditions which are behind it as the black stone of Mohamed was ancient in Mohamed's time. The Kaaba was already a "pagan" temple in Mohamed's time. The only question is whether a case can be made through sufficient linkages that the pre-Islamic religion of Arabia was influenced by Hindu religion.

It is the eastern cornerstone of the Kaaba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba), the ancient sacred stone building towards which Muslims pray, in the center of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia.[2] The Stone is roughly 30 cm (12 in.) in diameter, and 1.5 meters (5 ft.) above the ground.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone#cite_note-SaudiCities-disrupted-2) When pilgrims circle the Kaaba as part of the Tawaf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawaf) ritual of the Hajj, many of them try, if possible, to stop and kiss the Black Stone, emulating the kiss that it, according to Islamic lore, received from the Islamic prophet.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone#cite_note-3) If they cannot reach it, they point to it on each of their seven circuits around the Kaaba. The Stone was broken into a number of pieces from damage inflicted during the Middle Ages. The pieces are held together by a silver frame, which is fastened by silver nails to the Stone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_StoneWithout doubt the pre-Islamic religion of Arabia was considered "pagan" and Hindu's are not the only people pointing to remnants of those non-Abrahamic traditions and linkages still existing in Islam such as literal worship of the black stone in the Kaaba, something that doesn't fit in with Muslims breaking other religions murthis and forbidding images of any kind.

It's hard to know much about pre-Islamic Arabia because the feature of Islam has been to destroy and suppress what it disbelieves. But elements of Hinduism and Buddhism are all over the middle east. So the influence is undeniable.

Also, you can't say that Islam generally has been influenced by the dharma, it's only within Shi'a Islam and Ismaili Islam specifically do you find influences of the dharma within their teachings. Aside from this there is essentially no influence from my understanding.
I am making clear references to pre-Islamic religion of the Arabian peninsula having influence on the cultural beliefs and remnants of that still somewhat existing in modified and muted form in Islam. I never said Islam was a Dharmic religion. It clearly has suppressed and intolerantly destroyed what it disagrees with. Influences in Shia Islam and Sufism in particular have a lot to do with forced conversions and overlapping of Kashimiri Shaivism as well as bhakti influences of Vaishnava Ram-Naamis, particularly in Sufi Dhikr, pranayama repetition of Naam of Allah.

http://www.essential-architecture.com/ASIA/CAMBODIA/ANGKOR/Angkor_wat_temple.jpg
Ancient pre-Buddhist Vedic temples of Angkor Wat, Cambodia shows just how widespread was Hindu influence in the ancient world.

Digging up the Saudi past: some would rather not
That's because it's in Saudi Arabia, where conservatives are deeply hostile to pagan, Jewish and Christian sites that predate the founding of Islam in the 7th century. But now, in a quiet but notable change of course, the kingdom has opened up an archaeology boom by allowing Saudi and foreign archaeologists to explore cities and trade routes long lost in the desert.

The sensitivities run deep. Archaeologists are cautioned not to talk about pre-Islamic finds outside scholarly literature. Few ancient treasures are on display, and no Christian or Jewish relics. A 4th or 5th century church in eastern Saudi Arabia has been fenced off ever since its accidental discovery 20 years ago and its exact whereabouts kept secret... The Arabian Peninsula is rich, nearly untouched territory for archaeologists. In pre-Islamic times it was dotted with small kingdoms and crisscrossed by caravan routes to the Mediterranean. Ancient Arab peoples — Nabateans, Lihyans, Thamud — interacted with Assyrians and Babylonians, Romans and Greeks. Much about them is unknown...


At nearby Jurash, a previously untouched site in the mountains overlooking the Red Sea, a team led by David Graf of the University of Miami is uncovering a city that dates at least to 500 B.C. The dig could fill out knowledge of the incense routes running through the area and the interactions of the region's kingdoms over a 1,000-year span...

But the call to keep the land purged of other religions runs deep among many Saudis. Even though Madain Saleh site is open for tourism, many Saudis refuse to visit on religious grounds because the Quran says God destroyed it for its sins.


Excavations sometimes meet opposition from local residents who fear their region will become known as "Christian" or "Jewish." And Islam being an iconoclastic religion, hard-liners have been known to raze even ancient Islamic sites to ensure that they do not become objects of veneration. Saudi museums display few non-Islamic artifacts. Riyadh's National Museum shows small pre-Islamic statues, a golden mask and a large model of a pagan temple. In some display cases, female figurines are listed, but not present — likely a nod to the kingdom's ban on depictions of the female form. http://www.newsday.com/digging-up-the-saudi-past-some-would-rather-not-1.1396398

[Abominable Snowman]

This response will be brief and I respond more later but for now I will say that cleansing rituals and the color white to symbolize purity is quite common both within the East and the world over. Jews also wear white and have a ritual which is performed each morning which involves washing and bathing to purify the body and soul, is this a remanent of Vedic culture?

[Harjas Kaur]

Jews also wear white and have a ritual which is performed each morning which involves washing and bathing to purify the body and soul, is this a remanent of Vedic culture?Who knows? If Sruti was revealed to the Rishi's in ancient times and comes from Primordial Truth, then the basis of all world religions would have to be related in some way.

In this context we're looking at the pre-Islamic religious traditions which may have survived in Islam. Would Jews be considered in this context of ritual worship associated with an ancient pagan temple involving kissing of a black stone? And if not, then by analogy the similarity to Vedic religion as per the King Vikramaditya inscription in the vicinity of the Kaaba itself being refers to a Hindu King and thus a Hindu temple. So I'm not analyzing every religion's purification rituals and white robes, but those specifically related to rituals conducted in the Kaaba which is acknowledged as an ancient "pagan" temple. I'm surprised you said you practiced Hinduism for ten years but don't know the difference between a linga and a yoni. "I wouldn't link the ka'aba to the yoni simply because they share a similar shade of stone."


According to the hadith, the Ka'aba in Mecca was a center of idol-worship, with the Ka'aba housing 360 idols: Narrated 'Abdullah bin Masud: The Prophet entered Mecca and (at that time) there were three hundred-and-sixty idols around the Ka’aba. He started stabbing the idols with a stick he had in his hand and reciting: "Truth (Islam) has come and Falsehood (disbelief) has vanished." Sahih Bukhari 3:43:658 http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/The_Pagan_Origins_of_IslamSo if there was an inscription of a ancient Hindu king near that ancient pagan temple, you think the analysis would be better served to compare with Jewish rituals?


Don't look for meaning there is none.
Okay. Conversely don't ignore meaning where there may be meaning.

[DavidC]

There is literally no teaching of Islam or even mention of their Prophet Mohamed anywhere in the Sikh scripture.

Perhaps I was being too simplistic, but I suspect you are too, though your post was informative.

'Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.'--SGGS p141


it's like saying people who live in Britain are influenced by Paganism because the stone and woodhenge still stand there.

That is not all, and since it is true, what is your point?

[Harjas Kaur]

'Ihram' is a state a Muslim enters into for his pilgrimage to Mecca. 'Ihram' involves a series of procedures like ritual washing, wearing 'Ihram garments', etc. 'Ihram' was originally a pagan requirement for worshipping idols during pre-Islamic times. Muhammad retained this practice for Islam. Muslims assume Ihram to perform the Hajj or Umrah. Here is proof from the Hadith regarding its pagan heritage:
Narrated 'Urwa: I asked 'Aisha : ...But in fact, this divine inspiration was revealed concerning the Ansar who used to assume “Ihram” for worshipping an idol called “Manat” which they used to worship at a place called Al-Mushallal before they embraced Islam, and whoever assumed Ihram (for the idol), would consider it not right to perform Tawaf (circumambulation) between Safa and Marwa. Sahih Bukhari 2:26:706 (http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/026.sbt.html#002.026.706) http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/The_Pagan_Origins_of_IslamThe question isn't whether this was retained from "pagan" religion in Islam, clearly it was. The question and analysis is whether that "paganism" was influenced by Hindu/Vedic religion. Since the Muslim countries, especially Arabia are under strict suppression as to antiquity of pre-Islamic religious artifacts, it can only be conjecture. We are prevented to having direct proof. But that should not be misconstrued to believe all the religious denials of the Muslims.
is this a remanent of Vedic culture?It is entirely possible.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QfVWU-2pVL4/SJyo-vQFRHI/AAAAAAAADR0/IBqvQ3EZNVo/S187/Allat-Saudi-pendant.jpg http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a253/tbirdofparadise/crescent_moon1.jpg
Goddess Al-iLat of the moon symbol - Arabia

Before Muhammad was born, when Arabia was pagan, the chief idol, who some sources claim was the moon god, named Hubal, had three daughters named al-Lat (simply "the goddess"), al-Uzza and Manat, who carried the shears of fate, and thus was a counterpart in Arabia of Atropos. Each daughter had a separate shrine near Mecca (Makkah), where the chief god Hubal (for the pagan Meccans al-ilah or "the God") had his shrine, the Kaaba. The most prominent shrine of al-'Uzza was at a place called Nakhlah near Qudayd, east of Mecca towards Taif. http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Uzza.htmlhttp://visav.phys.uvic.ca/%7Ebabul/AstroCourses/P303/Images/parpola7.gif http://realmagick.com/images/articles/1493/Pasupati_Lotus_1.gif
Rudra/Shiva of the Sun with bull horns representing moon, from Harappan seals - ancient India

The Pleiades hold a prominent place as the mothers or wet nurses of the newborn infant in one of the most ancient and central Hindu myths, that of the birth of the war-god Rudra/Skanda, who evidently represents, among other things, the victorious rising sun (and as vernal sun the new year). http://www.harappa.com/script/parpola12.html
Today in India the God Shiva, of whom Pashupati is considered to be the prototype , is offered worship through the linga (the phallus). In Shiavite temples what is more common than a statue of Shiva is a stone linga, usually with a yoni (the vulva)... Pashupati's horns also share moon symbolism and in the later form of Shiva, Goddess symbolism can still be found on the head. However in Shiva it is not horns to be found but a crescent moon. http://www.realmagick.com/articles/93/1493.html

[Harjas Kaur]

Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur
There is literally no teaching of Islam or even mention of their Prophet Mohamed anywhere in the Sikh scripture.

Perhaps I was being too simplistic, but I suspect you are too, though your post was informative.

'Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.'--SGGS p141 My original quote, if you read it said there is no Islamic teaching found in Shri Guru Granth Sahib. And I also added that it teaches a Muslim should be a good Muslim. Why is that simplistic?

There is literally no teaching of Islam or even mention of their Prophet Mohamed anywhere in the Sikh scripture. It teaches that a Muslim should be a good Muslim and a Hindu should be a good Hindu because the Gurus were TOTALLY AGAINST the need for conversion. The Sikh Gurmantr Naam of God is Waheguru/Vahiguru. Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas tells us the V = Vishnu/Vasudeyv, the H = Har Krishna, the G = Gobinda, the R = Ram. So the Sikh Naam of God as Waheguru is purely Vaishnav in origin although as true Hindus Gurbani says the name of Allah is also another Naam of God as is Shiva.
ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵਣੁ ਮੁਸਕਲੁ ਜਾ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥
musalamaan kehaavan musakal jaa hoe thaa musalamaan kehaavai ||
It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one.

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਉਲਿ ਦੀਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਮਸਕਲ ਮਾਨਾ ਮਾਲੁ ਮੁਸਾਵੈ ॥
aval aoul dheen kar mithaa masakal maanaa maal musaavai ||
First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away.

ਹੋਇ ਮੁਸਲਿਮੁ ਦੀਨ ਮੁਹਾਣੈ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈ ॥
hoe musalim dheen muhaanai maran jeevan kaa bharam chukaavai ||
Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.
The name Mohammed does not appear in Guru Granth Sahib. The English translation has put that there for clarification. It is not what the Gurbani says. Below is a better English translation. (You must understand that Sikhism has been tampered with over the last 100 years literally trying to place a wedge between Hindus and unite with Muslims.)

hoe musalim dheen muhaanai maran jeevan kaa bharam chukaavai
"Become a true Muslim by following the truth path only. Only then one can be free from the cycle of death and birth."

ਰਬ ਕੀ ਰਜਾਇ ਮੰਨੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਮੰਨੇ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਵੈ ॥
rab kee rajaae mannae sir oupar karathaa mannae aap gavaavai ||
As he submits to God's Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit.

ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਮਿਹਰੰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
tho naanak sarab jeeaa miharanmath hoe th musalamaan kehaavai ||1||
And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. ||1||
~SGGS Ji ang 141
The pauri is in context of Mughal oppression. It is discussing that a Muslim should be a good Muslim, that he shouldn't harm people. It is not saying Guru's Sikhs should become Muslims or that Muslims are equal to the Guru's Sikhs. What it is saying is that Muslims don't have to convert, they can find God in their own religion.

More on context:

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਆਵੈ ॥
hindhoo kai ghar hindhoo aavai ||
The Hindu comes to the house of a Hindu.

ਸੂਤੁ ਜਨੇਊ ਪੜਿ ਗਲਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
sooth janaeoo parr gal paavai ||
He puts the sacred thread around his neck and reads the scriptures.

ਸੂਤੁ ਪਾਇ ਕਰੇ ਬੁਰਿਆਈ ॥
sooth paae karae buriaaee ||
He puts on the thread, but does evil deeds.

ਨਾਤਾ ਧੋਤਾ ਥਾਇ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
naathaa dhhothaa thhaae n paaee ||
His cleansings and washings will not be approved.

ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
musalamaan karae vaddiaaee ||
The Muslim glorifies his own faith.
~SGGS Ji ang 951

ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਰ ਪੀਰੈ ਕੋ ਥਾਇ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
vin gur peerai ko thhaae n paaee ||
Without the Guru or a spiritual teacher, no one is accepted.

ਰਾਹੁ ਦਸਾਇ ਓਥੈ ਕੋ ਜਾਇ ॥
raahu dhasaae outhhai ko jaae ||
They may be shown the way, but only a few go there.

ਕਰਣੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਇ ॥
karanee baajhahu bhisath n paae ||
Without the karma of good actions, heaven is not attained.

ਜੋਗੀ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਦਸਾਈ ॥
jogee kai ghar jugath dhasaaee ||
The Way of Yoga is demonstrated in the Yogi's monastery.

ਤਿਤੁ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਕਨਿ ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਪਾਈ ॥
thith kaaran kan mundhraa paaee ||
They wear ear-rings to show the way.

ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਪਾਇ ਫਿਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥
mundhraa paae firai sansaar ||
Wearing ear-rings, they wander around the world.

ਜਿਥੈ ਕਿਥੈ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
jithhai kithhai sirajanehaar ||
The Creator Lord is everywhere.

ਜੇਤੇ ਜੀਅ ਤੇਤੇ ਵਾਟਾਊ ॥
jaethae jeea thaethae vaattaaoo ||
There are as many travellers as there are beings.

ਚੀਰੀ ਆਈ ਢਿਲ ਨ ਕਾਊ ॥
cheeree aaee dtil n kaaoo ||
When one's death warrant is issued, there is no delay.

ਏਥੈ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਸਿਞਾਣੈ ॥
eaethhai jaanai s jaae sinjaanai ||
One who knows the Lord here, realizes Him there as well.

ਹੋਰੁ ਫਕੜੁ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੈ ॥
hor fakarr hindhoo musalamaanai ||
Others, whether Hindu or Muslim, are just babbling.

ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਦਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
sabhanaa kaa dhar laekhaa hoe ||
Everyone's account is read in the Court of the Lord;

ਕਰਣੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਤਰੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
karanee baajhahu tharai n koe ||
without the karma of good actions, no one crosses over.

ਸਚੋ ਸਚੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
sacho sach vakhaanai koe ||
One who speaks the True Name of the True Lord,

ਨਾਨਕ ਅਗੈ ਪੁਛ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥
naanak agai pushh n hoe ||2||
O Nanak, is not called to account hereafter. ||2||

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
pourree ||
Pauree:
5
ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਕਾਇਆ ਕੋਟੁ ਗੜੁ ॥
har kaa mandhar aakheeai kaaeiaa kott garr ||
The fortress of the body is called the Mansion of the Lord.

ਅੰਦਰਿ ਲਾਲ ਜਵੇਹਰੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਪੜੁ ॥
andhar laal javaeharee guramukh har naam parr ||
The rubies and gems are found within it; the Gurmukh chants the Name of the Lord.

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਅਤਿ ਸੋਹਣਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਿੜੁ ॥
har kaa mandhar sareer ath sohanaa har har naam dhirr ||
The body, the Mansion of the Lord, is very beautiful, when the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, is implanted deep within.
~SGGS Ji ang 952

Gurbani is very clear. It is not by observing superficial religious practices either of Hindu or Muslim that one obtains mukti, which is not the same as finding God/being authentically spiritual, but by:

1. Following a True Guru
2. One gets freed from the cycle of birth and death -reincarnation
3. Practicing Naam Jap, naam of God in this pauri is given as Har, Har which means Vishnu.
4. Having the good actions which lead to positive karma.

Tell me, are those things the same as "Islamic teachings?"

[Harjas Kaur]

Just to be fair to those equating Sikhism as a variant of Islam, I offer anyone to please post the relevant Gurbani here where Islamic teachings are discussed regarding Abrahamic monothism, God sending prophets/messengers, or any kind of Muslim practices given as means of salvation/mukti.

And then I would ask anyone who tries to equate Sikhi with Islam to explain the shabad posted below in context of how any Muslim of any sect would view it as not being Hindu. It will be an interesting discussion, please. :)

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You.

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed.

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints.

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji ang 1082

[Harjas Kaur]

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

Now who in this shabad is being described as Supreme Swami with the description given as Parabrahm, beyond even Brahma, and Parameshwar, the highest Ishwara?

Consider the original source:


* īśvarah paramah krsnah,
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahah
anādir ādir govindah, sarva-kārana-kāranam

Which translates to:

* Krishna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes. ~Śrī Brahma-samhitā, Sloka 5.1 "Parameshwar Krishna"

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

Who is being called as the very God, one who lifts up Govardhan mountain and joyfully plays flute? Bhagavan Krishna. Can anyone imagine such to be Islamic teaching?


ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/Harjas/0005-3.jpg
And who is Narasingh Narayan if not one of Das Avataras of Maha Vishnu?

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

http://www.dollsofindia.com/dollsofindiaimages/paintings3/vishnu_avatar_QJ96.jpg
Who is the dwarf? He is Vamana the Vishnu Avatar.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20031012/spectrum/ram.jpg
Who is the great warrior? Vishnu avatar Ramachandra Ji!

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor.

Who can this be, Mukunda, Vasudeva Niranjana who is Lord of Lakshmi? Who saved Dropadi's honor? Bhagavan Krishna, purna avatar of Maha Vishnu, Supreme Lord Himself.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/Harjas/1328LakshmiVishnu-1.jpg
Lord Vishnu and Mata Lakshmi

[Harjas Kaur]

Now as to the original question, "Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

Of all Islamic sects, Sufism has been the most influenced by Sanatana Dharma. It is as if I say that I accept Judaism as a rich spiritual tradition. But, can I say that I'm a Jew? Would any Jews recognize me as a practicing Hindu Sikh never born from them, never converted to them? It flies in the face of the very definition. And although it may be a noble gesture of unity, the fact is, I am not a Jew.

The problem lies with what is the definition of a Sufi?

Snip Ji has given a perfect answer:

"A Muslim or Sufi can only recognise Allah and the Prophet. You could probably read Hindu philsophy to support your knowledge but not recognise it as the truth."And so did Abominable Snowman Ji:

So, if you are Sufi then you are Muslim and are to be "all you can be." Realistically lay people probably can't meet up to the perfect model or the level of observance of religious leaders but that is the hole you're shooting for.And so did Eastern Mind Ji:

Of course an individual can give himself any label he wants like Vedantic spiritualist, Hindu-Christian, Sufi-Hindu. But do the leaders of faith subscribe to this. No, for the most part, unless they are those universalists who wash everything down so much there`s not much left. Just my opinion.These answers are true. Unless you are a true Muslim, you cannot be a true Sufi. Unfortunately it is in the very definition of Islam to reject as false all other religions. This doesn't mean there aren't some linkages common to ALL religions. Truth is truth and it is all-pervading. But you can't walk several paths at once and get anywhere. You would have to stick a path and keep with it to arrive at any destination. With respect there are certain sects which unite different faiths, and I suppose you could follow a path like that. But in general, there remain vast differences between Dharmic and Abrahamic faiths.

[Harjas Kaur]

Nevertheless, it is the integration of Sanatana Dharma and Islam. Surely there were some more intellectual Sikhs. I can think of some: the Sant Mat gurus, who did not just teach bhakti, but meditation.

Hi DavidC

That is very true and a good point. Thanks for clarifying.
I find the blend of Sanatana Dharma and Islam quite beautiful; there appears to me to be something good dualists and non-dualists alike.With respect Jios, I believe this is based on a misunderstanding of actual Sikh teaching. Gurmat agrees with entire sanatan world-view and philosophy.

Concepts like Mukti, Guru-Chela, reincarnation and transmigration, Devatay, Avataras, four states of consciousness, four varnas, four Yugas, four Vedas, Naam jap, chakras, the 10 gates, yoga, samadhi, vikaars, an All-pervading God who we merge with who is our true Nature, Darshan, spiritual power of Guru's feet/charan, power of the sound current Primal Naad OM, power of Gurmantra, salvation/mukti attained by reciting Guru's Mantra, God as nirgun and sargun, God as philosophically best described by the Vaishnav concept Achintya Bheda Abheda, which is that God is both Object and Subject. God is Divine Beloved and also the innermost Self which is a concept both Dvaitic and Advaitic.


Caitanya's philosophy of acintya-bhedābheda-tattva completed the progression to devotional theism. Rāmānuja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C4%81m%C4%81nuja) had agreed with Śaṅkara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Aa%E1%B9%85kara) that the Absolute is one only, but he had disagreed by affirming individual variety within that oneness. Madhva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhvacharya) had underscored the eternal duality of the Supreme and the Jīva: he had maintained that this duality endures even after liberation. Caitanya, in turn, specified that the Supreme and the jīvas are "inconceivably, simultaneously one and different" (acintya-bheda-abheda). He strongly opposed Śaṅkara's philosophy for its defiance of Vyāsadeva's siddhānta. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achintya_Bheda_AbhedaI just fail to really see what Sufi teaching in Sikhi even exists that Sikhism could be considered any kind of "beautiful blend" of Sanatana Dharma and Islam. What is misunderstood is that the Sikh's Guru's were trying to bring about peaceful resolution to a hundreds years old conflict due to Mughal aggression. Sikhism stood in the middle and tried to emphasize those unifying features which did not condemn any religion as the Islamics were doing. And this was successful in spreading spiritual message to people who were open to that.

But in general the Mughals were not open to that. This open-hearted Sanatana Dharma teaching of the Gurus wound up resorting to bitter wars with devastating attrition and personal losses. It had to raise the sword simply to survive. And the open-hearted nature of Sikhi endured murders of Gurus and massacres and genocidal pogroms against Sikhs. The survival of Sikhi itself is a miracle. But it was never any kind of merger with Islam, despite the political mischievous intent of the British and Singh Sabha reform to recreate Sikh teaching and unite Muslim and Sikh in order to weaken the National unity of Hindu's at the turn of the century, and which resulted in Partition of the Punjab.

Message to God: Words of a Guru - Amazing Must Watch!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1Uw2FHZawA

[Harjas Kaur]

ਜਹਾ ਕਹਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਤੂੰ ਵਰਤੰਤਾ ॥੨॥
jehaa kehaan prabh thoon varathanthaa ||2||
You, O God, are pervading everywhere. ||2||

ਘਰਿ ਸੁਖਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
ghar sukh vasiaa baahar sukh paaeiaa ||
I dwell in peace in my home, and I am at peace outside.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ॥੩॥੨॥
kahu naanak gur manthra dhrirraaeiaa ||3||2||
Says Nanak, the Guru has implanted His Mantra within me. ||3||2||

ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
bhairo mehalaa 5 ||
Bhairao, Fifth Mehl:
9
ਵਰਤ ਨ ਰਹਉ ਨ ਮਹ ਰਮਦਾਨਾ ॥
varath n reho n meh ramadhaanaa ||
I do not keep fasts, nor do I observe the month of Ramadaan.

ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵੀ ਜੋ ਰਖੈ ਨਿਦਾਨਾ ॥੧॥
this saevee jo rakhai nidhaanaa ||1||
I serve only the One, who will protect me in the end. ||1||

ਏਕੁ ਗੁਸਾਈ ਅਲਹੁ ਮੇਰਾ ॥
eaek gusaaee alahu maeraa ||
The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਨੇਬੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
hindhoo thurak dhuhaan naebaeraa ||1|| rehaao ||
He adminsters justice to both Hindus and Muslims. ||1||Pause||

ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਉ ਨ ਤੀਰਥ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
haj kaabai jaao n theerathh poojaa ||
I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines.

ਏਕੋ ਸੇਵੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨॥
eaeko saevee avar n dhoojaa ||2||
I serve the One Lord, and not any other. ||2||

ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਉ ਨ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਉ ॥
poojaa karo n nivaaj gujaaro ||
I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers.

ਏਕ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ ॥੩॥
eaek nirankaar lae ridhai namasakaaro ||3||
I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there. ||3||

ਨਾ ਹਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ॥
naa ham hindhoo n musalamaan ||
I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.

ਅਲਹ ਰਾਮ ਕੇ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪਰਾਨ ॥੪॥
aleh raam kae pindd paraan ||4||
My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both. ||4||

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਇਹੁ ਕੀਆ ਵਖਾਨਾ ॥
kahu kabeer eihu keeaa vakhaanaa ||
Says Kabeer, this is what I say:

ਗੁਰ ਪੀਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਖੁਦਿ ਖਸਮੁ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੫॥੩॥
gur peer mil khudh khasam pashhaanaa ||5||3||
meeting with the Guru, my Spiritual Teacher, I realize God, my Lord and Master. ||5||3||
~SGGS Ji ang 1136

This pauri has been used to divide Sikhs and Hindus since the Tat Khalsa reformers first wrote the pamphlet, "Hum Hindu Nahin Hain" (We are not Hindus). But if you look at the whole pauri, the Guru is not saying, I am not a Muslim, I am not a Hindu, I am a SIKH! And this is the Gurbani used to prove independence of Sikh religion! Can the Guru ever be his own chela/shishya/sikh? So how can the Guru be creating another religion. Some Sikhs claim Guruji made a third Panth. And translate Panth/path as religion. Well, Nirmalay are a Panth. Udasis are a Panth. Vaishnavas are a Panth. But those are sects. They are not separate religions.
(Continued)

[Harjas Kaur]

ਨਾ ਹਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ॥
naa ham hindhoo n musalamaan ||
I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.
So what is the meaning of the pauri which is saying Guruji is "independent of religion" if he is not establishing a new one?

And here is the key:

ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ॥
prathhamae thiaagee houmai preeth ||
First, I renounced my egotistical love of myself.

ਦੁਤੀਆ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਲੋਗਾ ਰੀਤਿ ॥
dhutheeaa thiaagee logaa reeth ||
Second, I renounced the ways of the world.

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਦੁਰਜਨ ਮੀਤ ਸਮਾਨੇ ॥
thrai gun thiaag dhurajan meeth samaanae ||
Renouncing the three qualities, I look alike upon friend and enemy.

ਤੁਰੀਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧ ਪਛਾਨੇ ॥੨॥
thureeaagun mil saadhh pashhaanae ||2||
And then, the fourth state of bliss was revealed to me by the Holy One. ||2||

ਸਹਜ ਗੁਫਾ ਮਹਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਬਾਧਿਆ ॥
sehaj gufaa mehi aasan baadhhiaa ||
In the cave of celestial bliss, I have obtained a seat.

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜਿਆ ॥
joth saroop anaahadh vaajiaa ||
The Lord of Light plays the unstruck melody of bliss.

ਮਹਾ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
mehaa anandh gur sabadh veechaar ||
I am in ecstasy, contemplating the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਸਿਉ ਰਾਤੀ ਧਨ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੩॥
pria sio raathee dhhan sohaagan naar ||3||
Imbued with my Beloved Husband Lord, I am the blessed, happy soul-bride. ||3|
~SGGS Ji ang 370

What is Turiya?


In Hindu philosophy, turiya (or chaturtha) is a state of pure consciousness. It is a fourth state of consciousness that underlies and transcends the three common states of consciousness: the state of waking consciousness (jagrata (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jagrata&action=edit&redlink=1)), the state of dreaming (svapna (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Svapna&action=edit&redlink=1)), and dreamless sleep (susupti (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Susupti&action=edit&redlink=1))...

The Mandukya Upanishad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandukya_Upanishad) defines turiya as:
"The fourth state is not that which is conscious of the subjective, nor that which is conscious of the objective, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is simple consciousness, nor that which is all-sentient mass, nor that which is all darkness. It is unseen, transcendent, the sole essence of the consciousness of self, the completion of the world..."

The Bhagavata Purana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavata_Purana), verse 11.15.16 describes Bhagavan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavan) as (the fourth), defined in the turiyakhye Bhagavad Gita, verse 7.3 as:
"Within the material world the Lord appears as the three Visnus (gunas). The original form of the Lord is another form still. He is beyond material nature and thus known as the fourth..."

"The fourth dimension, turiya, is the ground of our existence and the goal of all transcendentalists. For the Vedanta philosophers it is perceived variously, either as undifferentiated consciousness or a relationship with the divine. Regarding the latter, Gaudiya Vedanta concludes that love is greater than ourselves, and it is the greatest aspect of God, one that he himself is motivated by. For them, the nondual consciousness of Vedanta philosophy is realized when we know that we do not belong to ourselves, what to speak of anything belonging to us. If there is any time at which we can accurately say that something belongs to us, it is when, having given ourselves in love to God, we can say that 'he is ours'."

"This is the Krsna (Krishna) conception of Godhead, one in which God appears not as God, nor finite souls as finite souls. Both interrelate intimately as lover and beloved, Krsna and his gopis, beyond any sense of each others' ontological reality, yet beyond the material illusion as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TuriyaThe Guru Jyoth was speaking from the enlightenment of a higher understanding which did not perceive distinctions of duality such as "friend or foe" or "Muslim or Hindu." And from that state of brahmgyan where Guruji's consciousness was merged with the God, Guru spoke as a God-conscious being. This is not the same thing as "rejecting Hindu religion and inventing a new one." Guruji is above religion. And that does not divorce Him from the eternal truths of Sanatana Dharma or the same Vedic concepts like "Turiya" He uses in Gurbani to describe His own enlightenment/"jivan-mukti." In non-dual consciousness, how can Guru Ji have established a third religion?

And so the truth remains that Sikhi is an obvious part of Sanatana Dharma. Philosophically according to Gurmat theological teachings, all of these concepts originate in what is termed "Hinduism." There is no Islamic cosmology at all. The goal and end result of any enlightenment is Turiya consciousness which no longer perceives duality distinctions. And this is the correct meaning of the Shabad, not a rejection of the underlying core Vedantic belief structure.

~bhul chak maaf

[Abominable Snowman]

I'm surprised you said you practiced Hinduism for ten years but don't know the difference between a linga and a yoni.

Uh, excuse me sir or madame? Who said I didn't? I think you're reading to much into things and I am not entirely sure that there is black stone shards in there shaped like a yoni though I have never been inside the ka'aba perhaps you can provide a picture? The post in which I think you ma have been trying to post said pictures, two pictures did not come up and only the third picture of the lingam should up, past that, I am withdrawing from this discussion due to lack of research and knowledge on the subject. You have presented a lot of information and I thank you, I will look into this further, I think perhaps I may have misunderstood what exactly your main argument was.

[Harjas Kaur]

Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur
I'm surprised you said you practiced Hinduism for ten years but don't know the difference between a linga and a yoni.
Uh, excuse me sir or madame? Who said I didn't? I think you're reading to much into things and I am not entirely sure that there is black stone shards in there shaped like a yoni though I have never been inside the ka'aba perhaps you can provide a picture? Past that, I am withdrawing from this discussion due to lack of research and knowledge on the subject.You just did it again ji! The black stone cannot be shaped like a yoni because it represents the linga! So when you keep talking about the kaaba or the black stone as being the yoni it's all mixed up. These are pretty basic concepts so I was just surprised you would be mixing them up. No offense intended.

The linga is the representation of many mystical powers far beyond physical, but simplist analogy, it is MALE. The yoni also represents many things but simplest analogy, it is female. (I too am female, the Sikh surname Kaur is the giveaway).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/Harjas/lingam_dual.jpg
The protruding phallic part is the Shiva Linga, and the vaginal shaped base is the yoni.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/Harjas/black-stone-hajar-aswad-kaaba-ma-3.jpg
The black stone is broken. And only fragments of it remain. They are embedded in the yoni shaped frame.

http://asqfish.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/hajre-aswad-1.jpeg

http://www.synthstuff.com/mt/archives/mohammed-Kaaba.jpg
Here is a painting of Mohamed placing the al Hajar al Aswad onto a cloth before it was broken into fragments. As you see it was decidedly "linga" shaped as you can compare with the Shiva linga in the photo below.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/Harjas/vishveshvara_shiva_linga-1.jpg

[Abominable Snowman]

You just did it again ji! The black stone cannot be shaped like a yoni because it represents the linga! So when you keep talking about the kaaba or the black stone as being the yoni it's all mixed up.

I see, my confusion was I thought you were talking about inside the ka'aba where idols used to stored and I thought you were saying that it contained black stones shaped like a yoni, my apologies. I see what you're getting at now, interesting, again as I said previously you have given me a lot to research.

[Harjas Kaur]

The kaaba is the black rectangular building. And inside it were originally 360 idols the center of which were the three daughter goddesses of the Moon and their father the Sun which Mohamed smashed. But he kept the al hajar al aswad, which you can see from the diagram below (bottom center of picture) it's attached to one of the outer walls. There are some interesting stories that link Sanskrit names to some of the 360 gods, but I haven't been able to verify it. Also there are some references to Mohamed in Bhavishya Purana calling him the incarnation of an evil demon who is fighting with Lord Shiva. Shri Guru Granth Sahib says the Muslims are sign of Kali Yuga.

ਤਿਹੁ ਜੁਗ ਕੇਰਾ ਰਹਿਆ ਤਪਾਵਸੁ ਜੇ ਗੁਣ ਦੇਹਿ ਤ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
thihu jug kaeraa rehiaa thapaavas jae gun dhaehi th paaeeai ||1|| rehaao ||
The justice of the previous three ages is gone. One obtains virtue, only if the Lord bestows it. ||1||Pause||

ਕਲਿ ਕਲਵਾਲੀ ਸਰਾ ਨਿਬੇੜੀ ਕਾਜੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਹੋਆ ॥
kal kalavaalee saraa nibaerree kaajee kirasanaa hoaa ||
In this turbulent age of Kali Yuga, Muslim law decides the cases, and the blue-robed Qazi is the judge.

ਬਾਣੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬੇਦੁ ਅਥਰਬਣੁ ਕਰਣੀ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਲਹਿਆ ॥੫॥
baanee brehamaa baedh athharaban karanee keerath lehiaa ||5||
The Guru's Bani has taken the place of Brahma's Veda, and the singing of the Lord's Praises are good deeds. ||5||

ਪਤਿ ਵਿਣੁ ਪੂਜਾ ਸਤ ਵਿਣੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਜਤ ਵਿਣੁ ਕਾਹੇ ਜਨੇਊ ॥
path vin poojaa sath vin sanjam jath vin kaahae janaeoo ||
Worship without faith; self-discipline without truthfulness; the ritual of the sacred thread without chastity - what good are these?

ਨਾਵਹੁ ਧੋਵਹੁ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਚੜਾਵਹੁ ਸੁਚ ਵਿਣੁ ਸੋਚ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੬॥
naavahu dhhovahu thilak charraavahu such vin soch n hoee ||6||
You may bathe and wash, and apply a tilak mark to your forehead, but without inner purity, there is no understanding. ||6||

ਕਲਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਕਤੇਬ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥
kal paravaan kathaeb kuraan ||
In Kali Yuga, the Koran and the Bible have become famous.

ਪੋਥੀ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਰਹੇ ਪੁਰਾਣ ॥
pothhee panddith rehae puraan ||
The Pandit's scriptures and the Puraanas are not respected.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਭਇਆ ਰਹਮਾਣੁ ॥
naanak naao bhaeiaa rehamaan ||
O Nanak, the Lord's Name now is Rehmaan, the Merciful.

ਕਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਤੂ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣੁ ॥੭॥
kar karathaa thoo eaeko jaan ||7||
Know that there is only One Creator of the creation. ||7||
~SGGS Ji ang 903

http://www.tohir.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/drawing.jpg

Hajar Aswad or the black stone really doesn't exist anymore except as small fragments. It's interesting the way they embedded it in a yoni shape, especially when it used to be a linga shape.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Y8f1DLv7lXY/SZMRJVOuR-I/AAAAAAAAA7E/remAZud-VKE/s400/Kaaba.jpg
Kaaba temple building

http://www4.worldisround.com/photos/0/339/468.jpg
It begs the question who is calling who an "idol" worshipper and a kaffir. They are showing reverence for broken pieces of a rock only because their Prophet once kissed and adored it, not because they believe it is representation of their God even.

[Abominable Snowman]

Very interesting, I knew almost all of this already but within in this context it's interesting, I've never heard of this line drawing I don't think.

[DavidC]

[...]The name Mohammed does not appear in Guru Granth Sahib. The English translation has put that there for clarification. It is not what the Gurbani says. Below is a better English translation. (You must understand that Sikhism has been tampered with over the last 100 years literally trying to place a wedge between Hindus and unite with Muslims.)

hoe musalim dheen muhaanai maran jeevan kaa bharam chukaavai
"Become a true Muslim by following the truth path only. Only then one can be free from the cycle of death and birth."

That must have been a pretty bad translation I had got that quote from. Thank you for clearing this up.

[DavidC]

These answers are true. Unless you are a true Muslim, you cannot be a true Sufi. Unfortunately it is in the very definition of Islam to reject as false all other religions.

Idries Shah, a Sufi descended from Mohammed, seemed to have completely disagreed. I do not really like that definition of 'religion' that it is sectarian: that is what should be defined as 'not religion.' Religion is mystical/esoteric and ecumenical. If it is worldly/exoteric and intolerant it is a dangerous sect--not a religion, even though many people use the word that way. Then they often also start to ignore/dislike their and other religions and react negatively to religious people because they do not like the word 'religion.'

[Harjas Kaur]

That must have been a pretty bad translation I had got that quote from. Thank you for clearing this up.There is a literal war going on with Sikh translations and ideological meanings. Earliest was the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha movement which sought to remove any association with Hinduism. That is pretty much the current mainstream Sikhi now. Needless to say the sanatan (pro-Hindu) Sikhs are actively persecuted and dera heads threatened with assassination for being a "danger" to Sikh identity and Sikh religion.


The source of Sikh Rehat Maryada - believe it or not - is Gurbilas Patshahi 6.
Gurbilas Patshahi 6, a book released under the SGPC seal, was banned in October 2000. What does a book ban mean for the Sikhs? My understanding is that a book ban should also apply to the reading, listening and implementing of what is written in the book. In other words, we as Sikhs should stop all practices based on a banned book. But this is not the case for Gurbilas Patshahi 6. The maryada at the Darbar Sahib is practiced based on the writings in this book.

Why is the maryada at the Darbar Sahib based on a book which is banned by the SGPC? Some may say that this is Sikh tradition, but the question is: Is this Sikh tradition or is this biparan tradition? http://www.sikhsentinel.com/sikhsentinel0307/oped_practicingthewrongmaryada.htmBipran refers to the phrase "bipran ki reet" which refers to those fake ritualistic and nonspiritual religious ideologies of Hindus. So this commentary is referring to the prevailing Tat Khalsa mentality which has condemned Hinduism and is pointing out the illogic of banning historical reference sources like Gurbilas when it is the basis for the code of the Sikhs, Reyat Maryada. This is just a small example of the erosion of Sikhi to conform to political movement rejecting Hinduism which has huge implications involving separation of affections and loyalties to the Indian state and supporting secession and militancy movements.

The Translation of Shri Dasam Granth has had the largest uproar. For one thing an official copy was just released last year, amid fanfare of traveling exhibition and scholars from SGPC to assuage doubts and toe the party line. Now we are given a granth which contains entire sections of the Markandeya Upanishad in praise of Devi and a verse which reads (In Zafernama) that Guru Gobind Singh is the "idol breaker." Whose own father laid down his life to protect Hindus from forced conversions, now SGPC has translation that makes Guru into a form of Mughal oppression against Hindus. And in same Granth which includes praise of Devi!

So this is the degree of translational mischief. For the 100 years of Singh Sabha reform, contention existed over Shri Dasm Granth. Scholars on both sides, pro and con are threatened with excommunication. They can't ban it because three of the panj banis an amritdhari Sikh recites daily are in it. Originally there were 32 birs. Now, there are only 3 extant with no trace of the others. No independant scholars can access whatever original versions of the Granth are left. And moreover an Udasi scholar who assisted the SGPC on translation because it's written largely in Braj Bhasha and Sanskrit, has released his own translation and it differs markedly and is of course shunned by official Sikh community as, "bipran ki reet."


Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur
These answers are true. Unless you are a true Muslim, you cannot be a true Sufi. Unfortunately it is in the very definition of Islam to reject as false all other religions.
Idries Shah, a Sufi descended from Mohammed, seemed to have completely disagreed. I do not really like that definition of 'religion' that it is sectarian: that is what should be defined as 'not religion.' Religion is mystical/esoteric and ecumenical. If it is worldly/exoteric and intolerant it is a dangerous sect--not a religion, even though many people use the word that way. Then they often also start to ignore/dislike their and other religions and react negatively to religious people because they do not like the word 'religion.' ~DavidCIf a person has higher consciousness, then he's not going to perceive impediments and separation. The question is not, "What did Indries Shah say," But what do Muslims authorities say? For one thing he was from Afghanistan. And a virtual war is going on there. No non-Muslim western Sufi is going to be accepted who is not converted to Islam. Now, if, like Paramahansa Yogananda, he came to the west and started his own group, then wonderful. BTW, descent from Mohamed is like 10-20% of the Muslim population. It has no authority. Saddam Hussein of Iraq was a descendant of Mohamed.

We aren't talking about reading wise words and getting spiritual uplift. The conversation was in context of being considered a Sufi AND a Hindu. And this is quite independant of the many instances in which holy Sufis have been executed for apostasy by Muslim authorities simply for being Sufis. Can you imagine someone calling themselves a Christian bhakta, for example, who doesn't even believe you have to believe in Christ? Can you imagine a Hare Krishna who doesn't have to be devoted to Krishna? Sufi's are Islamic bhaktas. Muslims who already regard Sufism with suspicion or as herestical can never accept that a non-Muslim kaffir is even a Sufi.

Now, in the 1960's a lot of spiritual movements and teachers were cropping up in the West, including Indries Shah. But that doesn't legitimate their claims. If you went to Indries Shah's Order in Afghanistan, would it even be thinkable that Western, non-Muslim disciples would be accepted as Sufis? Are any of his western disciples affiliated in any way with traditional Sufi groups? I doubt it. At best the non-Muslim Sufi movements of Indries Shah and Meher Baba are illegitimate step-children. Meaning, their non-Muslim Sufi movements are not accepted by traditional Sufis.

Now add to that a Hindu Sufi. Is it logical? I think what was being asked was are there enough sanatan elements in Sufism for it to be considered Sanatana Dharma? And that would depend on the sect. Modernly, due to persecutions, the old open-minded Sant Mat of the Vaishnav and Sufi bhagats who influenced Sikhism has given way to a strict Islamic self-definition. I doubt you will find it alive and well in Pakistan or Afghanistan or Iran any longer. A muted version, yes. But accepting of a Hindu? Not even. Saints and holy souls don't have duality consciousness, but the rest of the world does.

[atanu]

Idries Shah, a Sufi descended from Mohammed, seemed to have completely disagreed. I do not really like that definition of 'religion' that it is sectarian: that is what should be defined as 'not religion.' Religion is mystical/esoteric and ecumenical. If it is worldly/exoteric and intolerant it is a dangerous sect--not a religion, even though many people use the word that way. Then they often also start to ignore/dislike their and other religions and react negatively to religious people because they do not like the word 'religion.'

Namaste DavidC,

Indeed. On surface the Mahavakya, "You are That" apparently says that there are two entitities: 'You' and 'That', but the meaning is different.

Om Namah Shivaya

[sm78]

Namaste! Is it possible to be both Sufi and Hindu?


Certainly, if you have no problem with hypocracy (like most hindu's) AND you live quite a few thousand miles away from Taliban or similar true Islamic influences (preferably separated by ocean).

Hindu's will love you for this, and in India you will get lot of respect. But India is not safe from Taliban, not for long now.

[Onkara]

Dear Harjas Kaur

I am pleased you raised the topic because I have recently been wondering if there is any way to stop or reduce the overlap of abrahamic concepts into dharmic definitions (or if overlap is even an issue). We have picked up on a sensitive topic for some people.

I am here to learn. With this statement in mind I must bow to your better knowledge and accept that there are no words in the SGGS which convince me that Sikhism is a variant of Islam.

Sikhism is not Islam, I have not doubted that. If it were possible to debate this I would be limited to searches on the SGGS and internet for words i.e. nothing new. I would also like to add that I would be surprised to see blatant references in Sikhi Gurbani to the worthiness of other religions over Sikhism itself. The 10 Gurus were undoubtedly wise, to make references to the Prophet/messengers or Muslim practices would be misleading

To make references of the teaching of the Prophet (pbuh) and Islam in any depth would be similar to me going to a job interview and praising another person as the best when asked why they should hire me for the job. It makes little sense to refer to others when you know the Truth.

Sikhism is beyond the need of any others because as you correctly say because for the Guru, He saw the truth:

ਤੁਰੀਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧ ਪਛਾਨੇ ॥੨॥
thureeaagun mil saadhh pashhaanae ||2||
And then, the fourth state of bliss was revealed to me by the Holy One. ||2||

Returning to the post, does it not strike the reader remarkable that both DavidC Ji and myself came to these thoughts without any debate, nor any long discussion, nor in my case, any extensive practice of Sikhism?

Why do you think that happened? How can this conclusion be drawn so easily by me? Perhaps other people have made decisions based on similar assumption but this is the first time they have been questioned.

I will try to provide some ideas in my next post, but I wished to acknowledge your posts now and sincerely hope no offence was taken from my previous hasty post.

PS: perhaps we should consider moving this topic/posts to Sikhism HDF area?

[Harjas Kaur]

but I wished to acknowledge your posts now and sincerely hope no offence was taken from my previous hasty post.I'm not offended at all. It's a very important topic to discuss and explore. I enjoy this topic of conversation. Clearly it belongs just as well in Islam section as Sikhim section, perhaps more so in Islam section because it discusses encroachment of Abrahamic ideologies into Sikhi. The reason I jumped in here was to correct what I feel is a serious problem in misconstruing Sikh religion as a form of Islam. You must understand the underlying political interests which seeks to unite Sikhs with Muslims against Hindus.


Sikhism is beyond the need of any others because as you correctly say because for the Guru, He saw the truth:Again, not to nitpick, but Sikhs are fighting hard to establish independence of the religion. I'm not doing that. I'm a Sanatan Sikh, and believe firmly that original Sikhism belongs to Sanatana Dharma as a sect of Hinduism. And I am prepared to prove that in any debate. The Guru saw Truth because He was a realized Master, not because "Sikhism" is superior to any other, least of all Hinduism because all of the major concepts in Guru's bani come from Hindu scriptures.


I would be surprised to see blatant references in Sikhi Gurbani to the worthiness of other religions over Sikhism itself.Sikhism has nowhere established itself in any Gurbani as a separate religion except in the minds of political separatists seeking to disunite the harmony of Bharat Mata Ji. Sikhi teaching sought to confront hypocrisies of outward show of religious practices and extol authentic devotion instead. It is non-missionary so you will find Gurbani explaining that a Muslim should be a good Muslim and a Hindu should be a good Hindu, that by living up to the highest teachings in own religions people would come close to God. This is classic Sanatana Dharma. You will also find a sprinkling of Arabic and Farsi words in the Guru Granth Sahib. But you will not find Islamic teachings or beliefs.

To make references of the teaching of the Prophet (pbuh) and Islam in any depth would be similar to me going to a job interview and praising another person as the best when asked why they should hire me for the job. It makes little sense to refer to others when you know the Truth.Why are you writing "praise be upon him" for "Prophet?" Are you a Muslim that you praise Mohamed? There is a powerful reason the Sikh Guru's did not praise Mohamed specifically as that alone would be acknowledging him as a Prophet, and hence submitting to his religious authority as Divine.

It was Mohamed's teaching that Muslims had supreme religion and right by God to persecute and destroy Hindu kaffirs. When you find Gurbani tuuks talking about Muslims it is in context of urging them to not harm others and to be good and sincere followers of Rachman, the God who is mercy.


ਜੈਸੀ ਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਖਸਮ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤੈਸੜਾ ਕਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
jaisee mai aavai khasam kee baanee thaisarraa karee giaan vae laalo ||
As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo.

ਪਾਪ ਕੀ ਜੰਞ ਲੈ ਕਾਬਲਹੁ ਧਾਇਆ ਜੋਰੀ ਮੰਗੈ ਦਾਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
paap kee jannj lai kaabalahu dhhaaeiaa joree mangai dhaan vae laalo ||
Bringing the marriage party of sin, Babar has invaded from Kaabul, demanding our
land as his wedding gift, O Lalo.

ਸਰਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਇ ਛਪਿ ਖਲੋਏ ਕੂੜੁ ਫਿਰੈ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
saram dhharam dhue shhap khaloeae koorr firai paradhhaan vae laalo ||
Modesty and righteousness both have vanished, and falsehood struts around like
a leader, O Lalo.

ਕਾਜੀਆ ਬਾਮਣਾ ਕੀ ਗਲ ਥਕੀ ਅਗਦੁ ਪੜੈ ਸੈਤਾਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
kaajeeaa baamanaa kee gal thhakee agadh parrai saithaan vae laalo ||
The Qazis and the Brahmins have lost their roles, and Satan now conducts
the marriage rites, O Lalo.

ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨੀਆ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਕਸਟ ਮਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
musalamaaneeaa parrehi kathaebaa kasatt mehi karehi khudhaae vae laalo
The Muslim women read the Koran, and in their misery, they call upon God, O Lalo.

ਜਾਤਿ ਸਨਾਤੀ ਹੋਰਿ ਹਿਦਵਾਣੀਆ ਏਹਿ ਭੀ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
jaath sanaathee hor hidhavaaneeaa eaehi bhee laekhai laae vae laalo ||
The Hindu women of high social status, and others of lowly status as well, are put
into the same category, O Lalo.
~SGGS Ji ang 722


ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥
sakath sanaehu kar sunnath kareeai mai n badhougaa bhaaee ||
Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done;
I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥
jo rae khudhaae mohi thurak karaigaa aapan hee katt jaaee ||2||
If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2||

ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥
sunnath keeeae thurak jae hoeigaa aourath kaa kiaa kareeai ||
If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥
aradhh sareeree naar n shhoddai thaa thae hindhoo hee reheeai ||3||
She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him,
so he remains a Hindu. ||3||

ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
shhaadd kathaeb raam bhaj bourae julam karath hai bhaaree ||
Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool,
and stop oppressing others so badly.
~Bhagat Kabir Ji, SGGS JI ang 477

[Harjas Kaur]

Returning to the post, does it not strike the reader remarkable that both DavidC Ji and myself came to these thoughts without any debate, nor any long discussion, nor in my case, any extensive practice of Sikhism?

Why do you think that happened? How can this conclusion be drawn so easily by me? Perhaps other people have made decisions based on similar assumption but this is the first time they have been questioned.It comes from the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha reform movement in Sikhism. This movement had express goal to remove Hinduism from Sikhism and began huge mischief with altering and mistranslating scriptures, banning others, illegitimizing others and making sweeping generalizations before the public. They started mass conversions of thousands of Muslims into Sikh religion. Then they removed Hindu murthis/gods from the Sikh Golden Temple and other Gurdwaras in 1906. I know how you come to the wrong conclusion, but if I say nothing you will continue to blindly believe it.

Sweeping generalizations include that Sikhism is a synthesis of Hinduism and Islam. That Sikhism includes bhagat bani from Vaishnav Hindu saints as well as Sufi saints. And here is the mischief. Let's look at the Bhagats whose writings are in Sikh Gurbani.


"There are 15 Bhagats who are given respect in the Guru Granth Sahib as the Bani of the Ten Sikh Gurus. They evolved a belief in one God that preceded Guru Nanak. Guru Arjan Dev selected the writings of The Great Hindu Bhaktis and Sufi saints." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BhagatSounds like a synthesis to me too. And listen to the Sikh site:


A Bhagat is an Eastern equivalent to a Christian Saint, a Sant. The word Bhagat comes from the Sanskrit word Bhakti, which means devotion, love etc. Throughout the history of India there have been saints and thinkers who were dissatisfied with the superstitions and the religious vagaries of the Hindus. They gradually evolved a belief in one God and preceded Guru Nanak as does the dawn before sunrise. The teachings of these Bhagats are given the same prominence in the SGGS, the Sikh Holy Book as the teaching of the Ten Sikh Gurus. Guru Arjan Dev Ji selected the writings of both Hindus and Muslims with equal impartiality, according to their suitability of his purpose and religious reformation that was Sikhism. http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sikh_BhagatsBear with my wordiness please. There are a number of errors and false assumptions in the Tat Khalsa Sikh reformist mentality. First is that a Sanskrit Vedic word means anything like an Eastern version of a Christian saint. Second is the sweeping denunciation of Hindu religion as "superstitions" who improved spiritually by evolving into a belief in One God. And Third that Gurus gave impartial equality to bani of both Hindus and Muslims.


In one recension of Bhai Banno's Granth, preserved at Mangat in the Gujarat district of the Punjab, there is included a hymn composed by Mira Bai (http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?title=Mira_Bai&action=edit&redlink=1), Queen of Chitaur. It is believed that Guru Arjan did not give it a place in his collection because the lady lived and died an idolater. http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sikh_BhagatsThere is a huge controversy between the Banno bir and the Kartarpur bir as the original document on which Shri Guru Granth is based. The Kartarpur bir is the accepted legitimate original, and it is filled with deletions, white-outs, cut and pasted Guru signature, etc. Obviously there is a revisionism ongoing. Why would Guru have bani of Vaishnav sant Mirabai in one Granth but not another? Because she was an idolator?


ਰੇ ਜਨ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਧਉ ਸਿਉ ਲਾਈਐ ॥
rae jan man maadhho sio laaeeai ||
O humble people, link your mind to the Lord.

ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਨ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
chathuraaee n chathurabhuj paaeeai || rehaao ||
Through cleverness, the four-armed Lord is not obtained. ||Pause||
~SGGS Ji ang 324


ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints.

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji ang 1082

What God is being described here having four arms carrying conch, chakr, war mace? Who is this four-armed god?

http://www.pitt.edu/%7Esorc/hindu/Religion/3.jpg
It is describing the symbolic representation of Vishnu. (to be continued, sorry for wordiness)

[Harjas Kaur]

So why would a Vaishnav sant like Mirabai be rejected for being an idolator? Or Tat Khalsas in rejecting Hinduism felt they had to reject an obviously famous Hindu saint and manipulated the scriptures to remove her. But they couldn't remove all the bani. So they made sweeping generalizations that all these words for God, Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna, Brahma, Ram, only mean the nirgun Parabrahm. Krishna doesn't really mean Krishna they say, even as the Gurbani describes him as blue skinned, playing a flute with gopis in Vrindavan. Try swallowing that one.

So lets analyze those Sufi Muslim bhagats in Gurbani. Out of 15 bhagats, 4 are "Muslims." One is Bhagat Baini written as Beni to make it look Semitic.
Bhagat Beni/Baini:
Bhagat Beni makes a severe denunciation of the Hindu (http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Hindu) rituals and austerities of "Hath Yoga" so that common man learns of the real motive of true religion i.e. the remembrance of the True Lord and the cultivation of the Divine Name. http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Bhagat_BeniThis is one interpretation. Here's another:

ਇੜਾ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਅਉਰ ਸੁਖਮਨਾ ਤੀਨਿ ਬਸਹਿ ਇਕ ਠਾਈ ॥
eirraa pingulaa aour sukhamanaa theen basehi eik thaaee ||
The energy channels of the Ida, Pingala and Shushmanaa: these three dwell in one place.

ਬੇਣੀ ਸੰਗਮੁ ਤਹ ਪਿਰਾਗੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਜਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਥਾਈ ॥੧॥
baenee sangam theh piraag man majan karae thithhaaee ||1||
This is the true place of confluence of the three sacred rivers: this is where my mind takes its cleansing bath. ||1||

ਸੰਤਹੁ ਤਹਾ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਰਾਮੁ ਹੈ ॥
santhahu thehaa niranjan raam hai ||
O Saints, the Immaculate Lord dwells there;
~Bhagat Baini, SGGS Ji ang 974


ਉਪਜੈ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਛੀਜੈ ॥
oupajai giaan dhuramath shheejai ||
Spiritual wisdom wells up, and evil-mindedness departs;

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਰਸਿ ਗਗਨੰਤਰਿ ਭੀਜੈ ॥
anmrith ras gagananthar bheejai ||
the nucleus of the mind sky is drenched with Ambrosial Nectar.

ਏਸੁ ਕਲਾ ਜੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥
eaes kalaa jo jaanai bhaeo ||
One who knows the secret of this device,

ਭੇਟੈ ਤਾਸੁ ਪਰਮ ਗੁਰਦੇਉ ॥੩॥
bhaettai thaas param guradhaeo ||3||
meets the Supreme Divine Guru. ||3||

ਦਸਮ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰਾ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੀ ਘਾਟੀ ॥
dhasam dhuaaraa agam apaaraa param purakh kee ghaattee ||
The Tenth Gate is the home of the inaccessible, infinite Supreme Lord.
~Bhagat Baini, SGGS JI ang 974

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Bhagat Baini was 1. praising the Supreme Lord as Niranjan/immaculate Ram/Avatar Ramachandra of Avodya. This makes the "Muslim" bhagat a Vaishnav bhakta. Moreover, instead of severely denouncing yoga, he is actually preaching it. Ida, pingala and Shushmana are the main nadis the shakti rises through the chakra in Kundalini yoga system. The Tenth Gate where the practitioner meets the Supreme Divine Guru, is called sahasranama Chakra. It is located on the top of the head, where yogis and Sikhs tie their jura, top knots.

http://ic2.pbase.com/u11/bmcmorrow/small/37969773.DSC_1818.jpg http://homepage.ntlworld.com/adsingh/images/Sikhs/5k_kes.gif
Shaivite Sadhu and Sikh man wearing hair in top knot over the crown chakra
The purpose of chanting the Divine name of God, which in Gurbani over 8,000 is given as Raam, is to put the beej syllables of mantra sound current which vibrates on the hairs and forms a yogic seal/mudra over the Crown chakra so the Name of God washes the thoughts, mind and heart and lifts through the chakras to unlock the tenth gate and give Samadhi.

ਜਾਗਤੁ ਰਹੈ ਸੁ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਸੋਵੈ ॥
jaagath rehai s kabahu n sovai ||
One who remains awake, never sleeps.

ਤੀਨਿ ਤਿਲੋਕ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਪਲੋਵੈ ॥
theen thilok samaadhh palovai ||
The three qualities and the three worlds vanish, in the state of Samaadhi.

ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਲੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਰਹੈ ॥
beej manthra lai hiradhai rehai ||
He takes the Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra, and keeps it in his heart.
~Bhagat Baini, SGGS Ji ang 974

Now we can clearly see the degree of mischief and mistranslation occuring to the general public by the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha and Bhasauria anti-Hindu mentalities. They are literally inventing a new Sikhism. And this is why people have the wrong understanding. I can continue indefinitely, but suffice to say all the bhagats were Vaishnavs with exception of Baba Farid. He is the only Sufi whose bani appears in Guru granth Sahib. And even his bani says nothing about Islamic religious teachings, only praise the Divine Love of God and that disciple should be attached to his Guru, which makes it clear he too was influenced by Vaishnav bhakti sect.

[Onkara]

Harjas Kaur Ji
You have added more so my reply will be appear limited. I hope to read what you have since added.


I'm not offended at all. It's a very important topic to discuss and explore. I enjoy this topic of conversation. Clearly it belongs just as well in Islam section as Sikhim section, perhaps more so in Islam section because it discusses encroachment of Abrahamic ideologies into Sikhi. The reason I jumped in here was to correct what I feel is a serious problem in misconstruing Sikh religion as a form of Islam. You must understand the underlying political interests which seeks to unite Sikhs with Muslims against Hindus.

It is important topic I agree, as it can make or define a person's identity or their understanding. I am suggesting that we acknowledge that the OP on Sufism is not under discussion any more by us and step out of Heartfully’s thread.

Sikhism is not a form of Islam imho. There are however certain things which I think influenced my early post and hope to share those in the future for thought. Perhaps you are aware of them and have captured them above. I will go on to read the new posts.



Again, not to nitpick, but Sikhs are fighting hard to establish independence of the religion. I'm not doing that. I'm a Sanatan Sikh, and believe firmly that original Sikhism belongs to Sanatana Dharma as a sect of Hinduism. And I am prepared to prove that in any debate. The Guru saw Truth because He was a realized Master, not because "Sikhism" is superior to any other, least of all Hinduism because all of the major concepts in Guru's bani.

That is interesting, you introduce me to Sanatan Sikhism. Does that imply you would recognise the Upanishads? I assume not if you as you have been baptized. So does that limit it to historic ties only? I would be interested to understand more about Sanatan Sikhs please.

Sikhism is not superior or inferior to any religion.



Why are you writing "praise be upon him" for "Prophet?" Are you a Muslim that you praise Mohamed? There is a powerful reason the Sikh Guru's did not praise Mohamed specifically as that alone would be acknowledging him as a Prophet, and hence submitting to his religious authority as Divine.

No, I am not a Muslim, I understand pbuh to mean, “peace be upon him” as a term of respect, nothing more. To my knowledge I would have to make much stronger declarations to recognise Islam and the Prophet as the only way to God. As we are on the topic I am yet to find evidence that any person or religion exists outside of the non-dual absolute (Akal Purakh or call it what you will). I am confident to respect all religions before creating dualism in the mind and falling again to Maya and Ego. :)

[atanu]

Namaste All,

This is not exactly on the subject.

Hinduism sees the truth at three phenomenal levels and also at the transcendental. There is dictum to know the Agnivaisvanaro, the Tajjasso, the Shushupti-Sarvesvara -- and then the Turyam. But scriptures also warn us not to worship three Lords of three phenomenal stations of waking, dreaming, and sleeping as three different Yamas (Deaths). Scripture say that the Death is One. It is said that who see many Lords die many times.:)

Hinduism is very specific that the manifested creation is divine Purusha, its base being shantam shivam Narayana. The teaching is to worship the manifested creation and the unmanifested-undifferentiated primormordial prakriti, together. But the goal is only the immortal Turiyam Self -- which is not worshippable, since it does not admit of a second. Shri Krishna in fact speaks on this in Gita, lightly warning us of many difficulties of only worshipping the formless.

Possibly, except Hinduism, no other 'ism' recognises this. Most other religions harp only on the formless. Scriptural injunction against idol worshipping, IMO, is actually warning against worshipping of the fleshy body, which is lifeless and non-intelligent of its own. But the meaning of idol worship, IMO, has got distorted to massive extent. There are indeed huge problems, if one cannot see the world as divine purusha-agnivaisvanara, as the FULL (Yajvanji will say Bhuma) --- else Iswara, Allah, Yawvey, Elohim, and God remain warring entitities in the consciousness.

Visvarupa Darshana is necessary (as my good friend kd gupta ji advised once). Else, the love, the compassion, required for entering into Devi is simply not available. If someone is my opponent then such some one is only driven by Ishwara's maya power. The hater is helpless. He is driven like an automatic machine. Compassion can only get us out of our own bitterness and grudges.

Durga is difficult to attain. Indra Got it, only after His conceit of doership was killed. It is only in Veda that the warring God Indra (the mind) is admonished "It is all lies that you killed opponents. All is you".

Sorry. My main point is: Possibly, except Hinduism, no other 'ism' recognises the danger of sticking only to formless as the worshippable. I may be wrong.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Harjas Kaur]

Scriptural injunction against idol worshipping, IMO, is actually warning against worshipping of the fleshy body, which is lifeless and non-intelligent of its own. But the meaning of idol worship, IMO, has got distorted to massive extent. There are indeed huge problems, if one cannot see the world as divine purusha-agnivaisvanara, as the FULL (Yajvanji will say Bhuma) --- else Iswara, Allah, Yawvey, Elohim, and God remain warring entitities in the consciousness.For the most part I agree with your points in relation to snatana dharma and perhaps explains some of the teachings of Sikh Gurbani philosophically. But even that would be a mistake to overgeneralize, despite protestations to the contrary by Tat Khalsas reformists, since murthi pooja existed in Sikhism, even in Golden Temple as late as 1906. It cannot be said that Sikhs were Advaitins or they were any sect of Islam, but were clearly sanatan and this would be the proper perspective in interpreting Gurmat. The philosophical underpinnings of Gurmat are achinya bheda abheda and not a strict non-dualism. This is a Vaishnav bhakti oriented Dvaita philosophy as well as accepting of non-dualism.

Now, analyzing how that insight plays into actual Abrahamic faiths as a legitimate "interpretation" of their scriptures which has only "become distorted" is another matter.


Elohim is the common name for God. It is a plural form, but "The usage of the language gives no support to the supposition that we have in the plural form Elohim, applied to the God of Israel, the remains of an early polytheism (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12223b.htm), or at least a combination with the higher spiritual beings" (Kautzsch). Grammarians call it a plural of majesty or rank, or of abstraction, or of magnitude (Gesenius, Grammatik, 27th ed...) http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05393a.htmIn the oldest Abrahamic scripture in the oldest monotheistic faith, the name for God is given as plural coinciding with spurious and illegitimate texts within the tradition, much like the later Gnostics, who recognized that a range of deities not unlike devatay existed. Rather I support that it's due to proclamation of strict monotheism that hostility to "idol worship" is based rather than any philosophical insight against worship of the ego-identity in the flesh.


In its essential form, the story reports that Muhammad longed to convert his kinsmen and neighbors of Mecca to Islam. As he was reciting Sūra an-Najm[2], considered a revelation by the angel Gabriel, Satan tempted him to utter the following lines after verses 19 and 20 ("Have you considered Allāt and al-'Uzzā / and Manāt, the other third?" These are the exalted gharāniq, whose intercession is hoped for.)
Allāt, al-'Uzzā and Manāt were three goddesses worshipped by the Meccans...The subtext to the event is that Muhammad was backing away from his otherwise uncompromising monotheism by saying that these goddesses were real and their intercession effective. The Meccans were overjoyed to hear this and joined Muhammad in ritual prostration at the end of the sūrah... Islamic tradition holds that Gabriel chastised Muhammad for adulterating the revelation, at which point [Qur'an 22:52] is revealed to comfort him,
We have sent no messenger or apostle before youwith whose recitations Satan did not tamper.Yet God abrogates what Satan interpolates;then He confirms His revelations,for God is all-knowing and all-wise. Muhammad took back his words and the persecution by the Meccans resumed. Verses [Qur'an 53:21] were given, in which the goddesses are belittled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_VersesSo even in Islam exists an incident in which their final Prophet admits the reality of goddesses contrary to monotheism. On what scriptural basis can we impose our own interpretations of Advaita? If monotheism is the basis of opposition to idolatry and even the earliest texts leave remnants of belief in multiple divinities, Abrahamic monotheism by it's own scriptural sources is the corruption. The resulting persecutions against other polytheistic faiths is hypocritical and unwarranted rather than any expression of Advaitic insight.

Now you say:

"Iswara, Allah, Yawvey, Elohim, and God remain warring entitities in the consciousness."Are you equating Allah, Yahweh and Elohim with Iswara and God and then claiming these are warring entities within our consciousness? Isn't that a corruption of the Vedic definition of Ishwara/Paramatman and God/Parabrahm? Because "Allah, Elohim, Yahweh" in these cosmologies are figurative equivalents of the Supreme Absolute Reality. How can they be "warring within us" unless there are fundamental misconceptions in Abrahamic religions? And if you acknowledge there is a war within, are you reducing Advaita to a Zoroastrian division of God versus the Devil as posited in the Abrahamic construction?
if one cannot see the world as divine purusha-agnivaisvanara, as the FULL (Yajvanji will say Bhuma)This is the pivotal question. Can it honestly be said this is Abrahamic theology intended by their scriptures?
4. naaraayaNa paro jyotir-aatmaa naarayaNa: para: |
naarayaNam param brahma tatvam naarayaNam para: |
naarayaNa paro dhyaata dhyaanam naaraayaNa: para: ||
naarayaNa (Naarayana) para: jyoti (is the greatest of lights), para: aatmaa (greatest of souls),
param brahma (is the greatest Brahman), para: tatvam (is the best of essences)
para: dhyaataa (greatest of those who meditate), para: dhyaanam (best of meditations).
"Verily is Sriman Narayana the "Paramaatma."
~Narayana Suktam, verses 4-6

I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies
on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. ~Leviticus 26:30 Bible
This is Abrahamic scriptural injunction, not corruption or misinterpretation. Does this reflect philosophical belief in Bhuma? We interpolate wise sanatan beliefs onto theirs, and honor what we interpret as our own beliefs "in the name of their religions" as a form of self-deceived "unity."

[heartfully]

Namaste! Thanks! Are you a Sufi? I see Hinduism as embracing however unique a person's path is and I love that. Some tariqas are very open to the wisdom of other traditions; others think Islam is the only way. I would have assumed the Naqshbandi-Haqqani would not be too keen on a dervish practicing Hinduism.

Llewelyn Vaughn (a Naqshbandi from the west) just wrote a book about the Feminine Divine I look forward to reading. Irina Tweedie (who brought the lineage Llewellyn Vaughn comes through had a lot of experiences with Hinduism in India. One of the first things her guru/sheikh told her was there are Hindu Sufis, Christian Sufis, Muslim Sufis.

Om Shanti!
heartfully


Namaste,

I think from a perspective of Sanatana Dharma it would be okay. however if you take the islamic position it would not be so much okay. It depends on what Sufis you mean. Even the Naqshbandi Mujadidi sufis differ. You have some that are very lax and open, then you have others who are very strict Muslims who hold fast the Quran and way of Muhammad. Sufism of Shaykh Zulfiqar Ahmad would be very strict to the Quran and Sunnah and if you believed in God in a way that expresses Kufr (disbelief) such as believing God is everywhere and in everything and we are God then such a belief would not be acceptable to Sufis of that Naqshbandi Mujadidi Order.

Now you may be able to get away with Naqshbandi Haqqanis (those who follow Nazim al-haqqani). They seem to accept the old sufis sayings of there are many paths to Allah. However, even amongst them you may have disagreements. Perhaps Nazim al-haqqani wouldnt mind but sufis of a less calibre might take offense to "paganistic" views of Hindus as they would put it frankly.

it is hard to make them compatable since some Sufis are strict adherence to the close minded Quran and way of Muhammad. Those who are more about direct experience might not care because they have experienced God in all things and sees God everywhere and has perfected their vision of Wahdat al-wujud (Oneness of Being)

OM
-juan

[KaliBhakta]

It is very late here, and I will elaborate on this later but I was very much into Sufism before I became a Hindu; the Panentheism *the en is important, making into the god is in the universe AND transcendent, and not just the universe* of Sufism made me understanding to what Hinduism says about Brahma; the karma system *as properly believed and not just what we think in the west* made inherent sense and then Ma Kali burst into my life and took control as she tends to do in her devotees lives in her typical, beautiful way.

[internationalhindu]

I believe you can find an appropriate answer through a better understanding of the basic concepts of Hinduism. I hope the following article will be helpful to you. Hinduism - Everyone Is A Hindu (http://www.squidoo.com/hinduism-everyone-is-a-hindu)

I am really delighted to find such people who are ready to accept the good from different religions and establish a wholesome 'way of life' which will help towards the welfare of the whole world.

[ohhcuppycakee]

I think a person can be both Hindu and Sufi, though most Sufis are Muslim, of course. To be a sufi is just a person who seeks to meet God in this life, as opposed to the next. And yeah, the Naqshbandi order I think has definitely been influenced a lot by Hinduism and Buddhism. They are definitely an interesting group. If you would like to know more about the beliefs of the Naqshbandi, here is a great site: http://www.goldensufi.org/beliefs_ethics.html

[charitra]

[quote=ohhcuppycakee;74880]I think a person can be both Hindu and Sufi, though most Sufis are Muslim, of course. To be a sufi is just a person who seeks to meet God in this life, as opposed to the next http/quote]

Iam not familiar with sufi ideology other than that they are very tolerant people. Do they expect to meet god in this life, does it mean after death after one ends journey and breaths his last? The second assertion 'meeting in next life' if that is directed at hindu thinking, I am going to clarify it and explain a bit about rebirth. Hindus take rebirth with only atma transcending the life, the previous body is dropped and it promptly disintegrates rejoining the elements (pancha bhootas) it is made from. One can rarely join Brahman (The God or supreme being) after one janma, but usually majority cant accomplish that goal as most of us cant be so dharmic and sathvic to fulfill all our karma related obligations, but is doable though. Most take more than one attempt. In either case it is merely atman merging with paramatma. No physical body merging happeneing, at least body wont go anywhere other than into the earth. So the hindus cremate without any attachment to the dead bodies, for its job is done at death. namaste.

[devotee]

I think a person can be both Hindu and Sufi, though most Sufis are Muslim, of course. To be a sufi is just a person who seeks to meet God in this life, as opposed to the next. And yeah, the Naqshbandi order I think has definitely been influenced a lot by Hinduism and Buddhism. They are definitely an interesting group. If you would like to know more about the beliefs of the Naqshbandi, here is a great site: http://www.goldensufi.org/beliefs_ethics.html

Dear OCC, a Sufi is a Muslim first. They accept Q'uran as the holy scripture and Muhammad as their prophet. How can a Hindu become a Sufi without becoming a Muslim first ?

OM

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: Although individuals can certainly claim to be two religions at once, I really don't see any authorities in any religion authorising or accepting it. Basically, by making that claim, you become apostate to both religions. Not only that, but it has to be confusing for the individual. Dual citizenship may work in political arenas, but not so well in religious affairs. If you go to your imam or the Pope and tell them, "By the way, I'm also a Hindu," I doubt that he's going to say, "Oh, isn't that nice!"

Aum Namasivaya

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste,



Dear OCC, a Sufi is a Muslim first. They accept Q'uran as the holy scripture and Muhammad as their prophet. How can a Hindu become a Sufi without becoming a Muslim first ?

OM


It would be very difficult for a Sufi to claim to be both Sufi and Hindu as we know just the history of Sufism alone has caused many Sufis to die, because of experiences they have of the divine that did not go according to the Dogma of the muslims. This reminds me of al-Hallaj who was executed for saying, "Ana al-Haq" (I am the Truth). Al-Haq (the Truth) was reserved for Allah according to the majority of the Muslims, whereas al-Hallaj had an experience of seeing himself merged with the divine. Unfortunately, this caused him to be killed. Later on down the line of many Sufis, there have been much respect that they have given to al-Hallaj, but they had to keep this on the low as well as their other sufi teachings for fear of being murdered by the populace. I can't imagine one in Iran or Saudi Arabia claiming to be a Sufi and a Hindu without some threats, or as a worse case scenario be attacked.

Om Namah Shivaya

[ohhcuppycakee]

Dear OCC, a Sufi is a Muslim first. They accept Q'uran as the holy scripture and Muhammad as their prophet. How can a Hindu become a Sufi without becoming a Muslim first ?

OM


It all just depends on your definition of a sufi!

[sankar]

It all just depends on your definition of a sufi!
interested to know your definition of a sufi, cakee ..... :)

[UniversalLove]

I think you should just be you, without any labels.
Worship the Divine however you want. :)