Can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha.

[isavasya]

Namaste members,

Some time back I was talking to a arya samaj member, though I have a tremendous respect for the organization, I dont understand its view completely. One of my arya samaji friend told me that according to philosophy of tretavaad expounded by arya samaj, soul gets liberation after good karma and enlightenment of inner self, but according to him soul has to return from the state of moksha after a definite period of time and come to take birth again. Though I have heard some jain scriptures does supports this view of soul returning to samsara after getting moksha, but I never heard anything like this in any other school of sanatan dharm.

I seek help of learned members, please clear my doubt, can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha ?

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

In this regards I quote what Shree Krishna says in Bhagvat Gita

This unmanifest state is called the imperishable or Brahman. This is said to be the ultimate goal. Those who reach My Supreme abode do not return (or take rebirth). (8.21)

The goal (of nirvana) should be sought reaching which one does not come back; thus thinking: In that very primal spirit I take refuge from which this primal manifestation comes forth. (15.04)

The sun does not illumine there, nor the moon, nor the fire. That is My supreme abode. Having reached there they do not come back. (15.06)

Of course great personalities like Narad, Hanuman come and go as they please.

But if we gain Heaven by good karma

The knowers of the three Vedas and the drinkers of the juice of Soma (or devotion), whose sins are cleansed, worship Me by Yajna for gaining heaven. As a result of their good Karma they go to heaven and enjoy celestial sense pleasures. (9.20)


Having enjoyed the wide world of heavenly sense pleasures they return to the mortal world upon exhaustion of their good Karma (or Punya). Thus following the injunctions of three Vedas, the fruitive workers take repeated birth and death. (See also 8.25) (9.21)

Jai Shree Krishna

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste members,

Some time back I was talking to a arya samaj member, though I have a tremendous respect for the organization, I dont understand its view completely. One of my arya samaji friend told me that according to philosophy of tretavaad expounded by arya samaj, soul gets liberation after good karma and enlightenment of inner self, but according to him soul has to return from the state of moksha after a definite period of time and come to take birth again. Though I have heard some jain scriptures does supports this view of soul returning to samsara after getting moksha, but I never heard anything like this in any other school of sanatan dharm.

I seek help of learned members, please clear my doubt, can soul ever return to samsara after getting moksha ?


The only time I've heard of it is when a realised soul comes back by choice out of love for humanity, and a drawing to teach, to encourage others along the same path.

I do believe, personally that a realised soul can, however, have a fall from grace, and have to do it all over again.

Aum Namasivaya

[sunyata07]

Namaste,

It is an interesting question, one I hadn't ever quite thought about fully right until now. I had always assumed moksha was a finalising state for the soul, and that once it attained a state of perfect Self-realisation, a jivatman would never more be reborn. This might be getting a little out of topic here, but in that case, would this mean that moksha is not a state where all individuality of the soul disappears? I had thought the soul would merge entirely with Brahman so that it cannot even be differentiated from it anymore. If such is the case, how could a soul ever "fall from grace", as you say, EM? Please don't take my tone to be rhetorical; I am genuinely wondering about the nature of this. I could imagine souls reaching an advanced spiritual state and then for some reason reverting back to bad ways, but personally I can't contemplate moksha as being anything other than a state where once you have attained it, you never look back. Moksha always seemed to me something akin to the Buddhist state of Nirvana where Shakyamuni Buddha described: "if you are wrong by so much as the thousandth part of a hair, you will lose (the Way) in a flash".



The only time I've heard of it is when a realised soul comes back by choice out of love for humanity, and a drawing to teach, to encourage others along the same path.


I think that is more or less the same belief of many Mahayana Buddhists, where bodhisattvas out of compassion for human suffering delay their own full enlightenment to assist others. I would believe this to be quite true. I have often wondered if maybe some of the greatest souls and spiritual leaders known in history were perhaps not maybe themselves these guiding forces to help steer mankind back along the path of dharma.

[Eastern Mind]

Sunyata: Gosh, I hate speaking from book knowledge or regurgitation. Wish I had some experience in this, but I don't. I guess I have some questions for people who know more of this than me.

My limited understanding is thus. Moksha means release from birth on this planet, but does not stop the evolution of the soul. The final is total merging, water with water, and our evolution is complete only then. I've been told that moksha is just the beginning. I've also been told that you have to realise the self over and over again. But hey, I'm probably all confused and lacking in any real understanding. I can't even get steady on the muladhara.

Aum Namasivaya

[mukunda20]

Namaste everyone,
Moksha can be defined with various reference points. One such point which would fit here is that Moksha is a state where an an Atma becomes free(Mukti) from Maya.
Once Maya is completely removed, that Atma realises that it is Paramatma(in other words, the Atma merges into Paramatma).
So how can one try to divide the indivisible after this point?(there is no more concept of that Atma anymore, its all only Paramatma).
for example.
from an Atma's point of view, it sees everything else around it(Cosmos\Prakruti).
if the same everything else is seen from a Paramatma's view, can you imagine anything else to be outside the Paramatma?
This is one of the reasons why Paramatma is called as Sarvavyaapi or All encompassing\all pervading.
hope this helps,
please correct me if wrong.
mukunda

[saidevo]

Although an Advaitin at heart, I have always wondered and tried to contemplate on what is in store in the real state of mokSha. Thanks to Isavasya for initiating a discussion in this thread.

In the ultimate state of advaita, the jIva that is liberated realizes that it is already brahman, so there is no question of its becoming or merging with brahman: it's only that the jIva is freed of mAyA that veiled this Self-realization.

But this state of ultimate mokSha is not attainable readily by every sAdhaka--seeker. It is reached only in the stages of what is known as krama-mukti--progressive liberation. It is also dependent on the school of philosophy one is attached to.

It seems to me that sages like Sankara, RAmAnuja and MAdhva had widely different definitions and paths for the mokSha, not because they perceived it differently, but because of the Ishvara Adesha--divine orders, of the necessity to cater to the jIvas--human souls of different capabilities. And in Bhagavad GItA, the Lord himself brings about a union of the three streams of liberation.

According to Hinduism, a departed soul takes one of two paths, depending on its spiritual advancement. Normal souls take the pitRuyANa mArga--path of darkness, and reach the world of ancestors in the heavens. In this path, the soul must return to earth on reincarnation, after spending its karma-phala--fruits of good karma. Souls that have no good karma never reach the heavens; they return to the earth from the astral world soon after the end of their last physical life.

Advanced departed souls take the devayANa--path of light and reach the worlds of Gods. In this path, there is no rebirth until the universe is dissolved at the end of the running kalpa.

Thus the sages describe eight types of krama-mukti: five for the departed soul (mokSha after death) and three for the living (mokSha while living). Let us note that these stages of krama-mukti are open only to the jIvas that are in the stage of advanced spiritual development--with perfect yama, niyama, karma (actions), dharma, vAirAgya, dhyAna and bhakti, with the right although different stages of jnAna, and with the vital necessity of (the capability of acquiring) God's grace.

The five types of mokSha after death are described thus:

1. mukti under an iShTa devata

The mokSha obtained by worship of a personal god has four stages:

• Souls who ardently worship an iShTa devata--personal god, such as ViShNu, reach the world of that devata, stay, serve, adore and worship that devata in its own world. This stage is sAlokya mukti. The soul lives in the world of its personal god and enjoys the divine presence, like a devotee enjoys the presence of his/her preferred guru.

• In sAmIpya mukti, also known as sAnnidhya mukti, the soul lives in the proximity of its personal god, like a shiShya--disciple of a guru. This stage is attained after the soul acquires the capabilities of faith and surrender to its personal god, as in the case of a shiShya with his/her guru.

• The happiness that is attained in the above two stages, however, cannot be compared to the bliss of the personal god itself. So, with the grace of the personal god, a soul graduates to the next stage of sArUpya mukti and acquires the form of the personal god and enjoys the same, intense bliss as its god. This stage is like an actor playing the role of a god and living the scripted divine life.

• Souls who are not satisfied with role-playing and are ready for an intimate union, attain the sAyujya mukti, becoming absorbed in the personal god, but still retaining its individuality. This stage can be compared to a shiShya becoming a guru, endowed with the bliss and knowledge of his teacher.

2. vishiShtadvaita mokSha

A soul practising bhakti yoga with complete faith and surrender to VishNu/KRShNa attain the mukti prescribed in the vishiShtadvaita school (and its variants).

In this type of mukti, the soul reaches the vaikuNTha/gokula and lives blissfully with a spiritual body in the presence of ViShNu/KRShNa. The soul acquires many divine powers such as omniscience, but unlike God it cannot create, sustain or dissolve the world.

3. pUrva mImAMsA mukti

Souls who perform the karma (rituals) prescribed in the Vedas with faith and vigour attain heavenly bliss forever. There are two opinions as to the nature of this bliss: in one opinion, it is the bliss of the heavens subject to rebirth; in the other, it is state free from pain, suffering and rebirth.

4. krama mukti or avantara mukti

A soul that has intensely meditated on saguNa brahman using the sacred symbol of AUM or other prescribed methods, goes to the Brahmaloka after death. There it attains knowledge of the NirguNa Brahman, lives until the dissolution of the universe at the end of the kalpa, and finally meges with Brahman.

5. apavarga mukti

Liberation or apavarga is a separation from all qualities. Liberation is a state beyond pleasure, happiness, pain, or any experience whatsoever. It is achieved by cultivating ethical virtues and acquiring the right knowledge of reality. After liberation there is no rebirth.

The three types of mokSha before death are described thus:

1. jIvan mukti/videha mukti

This type of mokSha is the goal, specially of sages of the school of Advaita. The sage performs constant upAsana--worship and pUja and continuously purifies his mind, making it ready for the realization of NirguNa Brahman. The sage also practises intense meditation and attains a condition known as AtmajnAna--knowledge of the Self, which destroys avidya--ignorance that covers the knowledge of the Reality. Once avidya is annihilated, the sage becomes a jIvanmukta--liberated while living.

The sage lives his life until he exhausts his remaining karma (all of which is brought into the current life--one reason we see many sages suffering physical ailments), all the while immersed in the Self. Finally, when the sage drops his physical body, he attains videha mukti--disembodied liberation. There is no rebirth in this type of mokSha.

2. sadyo mukti

A jIvanmukta who has no leftover karma and lost interest in the illusory life with a physical body, may choose to drop his body within days after he attains jIvanmukti, whereby he attains sadyo mukti--instant liberation, with no rebirth.

3. kaivalya mukti

Suggested by the SAmkhya School of Philosophy, in this type of mukti, the puruSha--spirit, which is bound to prakRiti--body-mind complex, upon attaining viveka-jnAna--knowledge of wisdom, severs the connection with prakRiti and is liberated permanently.

**********

Although one can easily understand and appreciate the krama-mukti forms and stages described above, some questions remain:

• A person like RamaNa Maharshi or KAnchi ParamAcharya, who were jIvanmuktas when they lived, and then attained an eternal mokSha free from rebirth, is reported by some ardent devotees to visit their dreams and do them spiritual favours. Who or what exactly is responsible for such visitations in their earlier human forms? Assuming that the reports are not imagined dreams because of some lasting physical effects (such as cure of an ailment), how do we account for the visitations?

• Hindu Rishis of yore are spoken of as still living in the worlds of jana, maha and tapas, immediately under the satya (brahma) loka. Although jIvanmuktas, they continue to live in these worlds and sometimes visit people astrally, dispensing spiritual wisdom and effecting course corrections. How do the Rishis, who are permanently liberated, retain their identities and do these tasks?

• Our PurANas say that even the TrimUrti--Brahma, VishNu and Shiva are always in meditation. Since they are only SanguNa Brahman projected over the NirguNa Brahman, what do they meditate upon?

A possible answer is that these Gods meditate for the sake of their creation, as well as to keep their ego at bay.

Some links:
krama mukti
http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/1999-September/032497.html

Samadhi and deep sleep
http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2002-September/024885.html

States of mokSha and their meanings:
http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/oppiliappan/archives/nov06/msg00116.html

Moksha or Liberation From Samsara
http://1stholistic.com/prayer/hindu/hol_Hindu-moksha.htm

Progressive Salvation
http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/realis/realis_6a.html

The Flight Of The Subtle Body
http://living.oneindia.in/yoga-spirituality/swami-chinmayananda/2009/subtle-body-rebirth-self-realisation-030209.html

[isavasya]

Namaste everyone.

Thanks all of you for putting in the posts, it was good to get clarified in this filed.

Respected saidevo ji, must say I didnt knew about the kinds of mukti you just mentioned in your last post.So much of thanks to you. Interesting, I had read some where that until prabhakara and kumarailla bhatta took on works on mimamsa, Mimsakas had a strong belief that attainment of heaven was the highest state and their concept of moksha was not like it is mentioned in upanishads.


Namaste,

This might be getting a little out of topic here, but in that case, would this mean that moksha is not a state where all individuality of the soul disappears? I had thought the soul would merge entirely with Brahman so that it cannot even be differentiated from it anymore.

Namaste, I think it depends upon which kind of moksha we get, I think souls lose their individuality completely according to advaita philosophy, though it may correct to say that what ever kind of moksha you get, it is once for ever.

[rajeshpara08]

For this first you should understand moksha itself. Moksha itself are of different types. One form of Moksha is to merge with Brahman; Brahman is the space which is the formless existence of eternity . Bhaktas call it the light from the Lord's body and Jnanis call it Brahman. When one merges in that attributeless Jyoti; individuality of the soul is not destroyed. In that case the soul comes back after lifetimes of millions of Brahma and has to start material life from scratch. The other type of Moksha is to merge within the body of the Lord Himself which is also called sayuja mukti ; the state of what demons achieve after their destruction by the Lord. This is called the annhilation of the soul itself. When one attains such moksha , the living entity never returns. There are other six types of mokshas but these others are the those achieved by a Bhakta and is not open for Karma Yogis and Jnanis.

[atlast]

After winning Grace with Realisation one has finally achieved, Liberation. Liberation is not Moksha, as liberation is achieving 'NO' more rebirth. Moksha is merging back in becoming one with God. When one has no more rebirth, one 'can' volunteer if one wants to come back into samsara for a specific purpose, but still must be given permission from a High. But who wants to come back? The purpose of life in samsara is to realise ones true self, that which is God.

[Dutta]

After winning Grace with Realisation one has finally achieved, Liberation. Liberation is not Moksha, as liberation is achieving 'NO' more rebirth. Moksha is merging back in becoming one with God. When one has no more rebirth, one 'can' volunteer if one wants to come back into samsara for a specific purpose, but still must be given permission from a High. But who wants to come back? The purpose of life in samsara is to realise ones true self, that which is God.
namaste
very wise statement .
moksha may be an imaginary term but I don’t believe it to be philosophical too .
go to shloka 44/11 ch Arjuna talks logical as ..Prasadaye.. for the mercy and therefore in 45/11 says...praseedye.. be graceful O lord .
why because see 58/18 and 62/18 what goes to achieve moksha the peace .. tad prasadat prapyasi Sthanum..
jai Sri Krsna

[timetraveler]

Namaste
There are many different terms which mean similar things. Moskha, Samadhi and so forth.

Many levels of non-retrogression are there. I.e., one never loses them, but also one must be very careful.

Satsang is so very helpful and important. Swamiji speaks about this..

Satsang is described in many places.

Tyagaraja, Sant Tukarama, some others sing about these things.

Those bhajans are very nice.



(Mods can you please reinstate my ability to post without waiting.)

[krishnabhakt123]

Hello and Namaste,

My understanding is that we are all by nature originally eternal beings who served Krishna. If that is the case, that we decided of our own free will to come to the material world from the realm of perfect Bliss and Beatitude, what is to stop us from doing so again, if that is our expression of free will?

Another consideration is, if all conditioned souls get liberated, and that liberation is eternal, how can Krishna sport in his leelas here in this material world, kill the demons and save his devotees, etc. There would be no one to save, in that case, it seems to me.

So I am of the opinion that there is always the possibility of coming down. That is my perspective.

[grames]

Namaste,

Being eternal does not mean "Soul" was serving Krishna. Those who are in the mode/mood of serving Krishna do continue to serve Krishan regardless of where they are - as the Service to Krishna. Such soul, who are already "Serving" Krishna, may take birth again ( again this is my personal understanding that, such soul will only take birth with its marginal portion - that will not go through any karma - as the service of Krishna continues in the birth as well) - this is not coming back or fall but BEING with Krishna and serving Krishna alone.

In general, birth is due to Karma and thus, Serving Krshna and being part of His leela is still considered eternal. The concept of NithyaSooris will explain this philosophical understanding clearly.

Hare Krishna.

[Satyaban]

I have not been here for a while, like a year, but a very welcomed birthday wish was sent to me from these forums.
Many years ago while reading books concerning Sri Ramakrishna and his writings. It was at this time that I first heard "twice born", meaning a person who has returned to this plane after mahasamadhi to continue to serve humanity.

I have seen the words "good" and "karma" together, while I can not cite a chapter and verse but my understanding is there is no "good" and "bad" karma just karma. Good and bad being subjective terms. It is also my understanding from study that "moksha" and "mukti" means freedom from rebirth and samsara.

Being free from rebirth does not mean reunion with Shiva because there are 3 worlds,14 planes 3 spheres and more in the Vedic-Agamic cosmology where an atman may be, remember we are talking about states of consciousness, on a progression. As alluded to I think the "twice born" is applied to those rare persons who appear to have a priori knowledge of spiritual matters. I don't know the answer but I don't think so. Karma is a law like gravity, cause and effect every action has a reaction of equal and it is my understanding that it must be in balance to attain moksha, freedom from rebirth. Perhaps the OP means that if the atman some how fails in Shiva's second world lokas will it return to Bhuloka, the plane we are on. What could that be caused by?

OM namah shivaya OM sante sante I have not been here for a while, like a year, but a very welcomed birthday wish was sent to me from these forums.
Many years ago while reading books concerning Sri Ramakrishna and his writings. It was at this time that I first heard "twice born", meaning a person who has returned to this plane after mahasamadhi to continue to serve humanity.

I have seen the words "good" and "karma" together, while I can not cite a chapter and verse but my understanding is there is no "good" and "bad" karma just karma. Good and bad being subjective terms. It is also my understanding from study that "moksha" and "mukti" means freedom from rebirth and samsara.

Being free from rebirth does not mean reunion with Shiva because there are 3 worlds,14 planes 3 spheres and more in the Vedic-Agamic cosmology where an atman may be, remember we are talking about states of consciousness, on a progression. As alluded to I think the "twice born" is applied to those rare persons who appear to have a priori knowledge of spiritual matters. I don't know the answer but I don't think so.

om namah shivaya om

[Indialover]

Namaste

Chandogya Upanishad talks about Panchagnividya in the 5th Prapathaka. It mentions Uttarayana and Dakshinayana in X.1 – 10, similar does Bhagavad Gita in VIII.23 – 28. In the Mahabharata Bhishma is waiting till Uttarayana to leave the world.

Moksha could be the equivalent of Uttarayana. But I cannot find a term for Dakshinayana as an equivalent.

Some Puranas mention Uttarayana and Dakshinayana as a cosmic event but not as a way of salvation or no salvation. What they say is that the heavenly abode is not forever, one has to come back after punya is used up. They do not use a term for that.

Chandogya Upanishad - 5th Prapathaka Chapter X

1. Those who know this (even though they still be grihasthas, householders) and those who in the forest follow faith and austerities (the vânaprasthas, and of the parivrâgakas those who do not yet know the Highest Brahman) go to light (arkis), from light to day, from day to the light half of the moon, from the light half of the moon to the six months when the sun goes to the north, from the six months when the sun goes to the north to the year, from the year to the sun, from the sun to the moon, from the moon to the lightning. There is a person not human,--

2. 'He leads them to Brahman (the conditioned Brahman). This is the path of the Devas.

3. 'But they who living in a village practise (a life of) sacrifices, works of public utility, and alms, they go to the smoke, from smoke to night, from night to the dark half of the moon, from the dark half of the moon to the six months when the sun goes to the south. But they do not reach the year.

4. 'From the months they go to the world of the fathers, from the world of the fathers to the ether, from the ether to the moon. That is Soma, the king. Here they are loved (eaten) by the Devas, yes, the Devas love (eat) them.

5. 'Having dwelt there, till their (good) works are consumed, they return again that way as they came, to the ether, from the ether to the air. Then the sacrificer, having become air, becomes smoke, having become smoke, he becomes mist,

Bhagavad Gita - Chapter VIII

23. O best of the Bhāratas, I shall now explain to you the different times at which, passing away from this world, the yogi does or does not come back.

24. Those who know the Supreme Brahman attain that Supreme by passing away from the world during the influence of the fiery god, in the light, at an auspicious moment of the day, during the fortnight of the waxing moon, or during the six months when the sun travels in the north.

25. The mystic who passes away from this world during the smoke, the night, the fortnight of the waning moon, or the six months when the sun passes to the south reaches the moon planet but again comes back.

26. According to Vedic opinion, there are two ways of passing from this world – one in light and one in darkness. When one passes in light, he does not come back; but when one passes in darkness, he returns.

Pranam

[ameyAtmA]

Post got duplicated for some reason

[ameyAtmA]

Namaste

Nice answers and while Grames, IndiaLover and others have covered the Leela (pArshads accompanying BhagavAn on earth) and the HOW part,

(IndiaLover, a request - to specify the Bhagvad Geeta chapter number as well).

BhagavAn Shri KRshNa also says :

BG 15.6
na tad bhAsayate sUryo

na shashAnko na pAvakah: |
yad gatvA na nivartante tad dhAma paramam mama ||



"There" neither the Sun (or an illuminating celestial entity - 'a' sun-star), not the moon, nor electricity is found [nor required].
That abode / place , where once reached, one does not return [here to the mortal world] , is My Highest Abode.


BhagavAn is implying that this place is Self-illuminating. There is no trace of darkness (avidyA) there. If there is no trace of avidyA , no desires, no specifically local-egoistic endeavours, no attempt to serve the ego, then there is no need to come back from that state.

Here, at one level, the place (dhAm) can be taken as a state of being - and with that interpretation, the "dhAm" is right here , while living this life.

At the cosmic or videhi level (videhi avasthA = disembodied state - after the mukta has left the mortal body) - it can be a state and place.

The best part is it can be a STATE irrespective of the place.

The prayer should be "He paramAtmA, I surrrender to You. Wherever You place me, I should never forget You (always be in communion with You), never forget my true nature or Who I truly am."

That would be in alignment with the BG18.66 sarva dharma parityajjya mAmekaM sharaNam vraja ... verse, and truly following BhagvAn Shri KRshNa's instructions.

|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

[Indialover]

Namaste ameyAtmA

The verses are specified in the first paragraph.

The terms sun and moon are metaphors. Whoever does not get beyond the sphere of the moon has to make empirical experiences again, has to take a body and come back to earth.

Whoever crosses the sphere of the moon enters the formless, the ultimate, Brahman as described in your verse of Bhagavad Gita XV.6.

There is a similar verse in Tirumantiram - 1853
Worship Nandi Beyond the Spheres of Sun and Moon
When beyond the Spheres of Sun and Moon you ascend
There Bindu and Nada are;
Ascending (through Adharas) thus,
Your Awareness crosses
The frontiers of Waking State;
There when you continuous worship Nandi,
That verily is worship Divine.

Tantra 7 deals with the concept of sun and moon in depth
https://www.himalayanacademy.com/media/books/tirumantiram/web/Tantra_7.html
(https://www.himalayanacademy.com/media/books/tirumantiram/web/Tantra_7.html)
If we see moksha as a state of consciousness, like mukti, samadhi, turiya and who knows how many other terms there may be, it corresponds with the meaning of Moksha – become free of moha, illusion.

In the Puranas, however, moksha is used in the sense of 'Ishvara's mercy'. Ishvara has mercy and takes the devotee to his abode.

See Gajendra Moksha, where Moksha is already given in the title.
A king is cursed to be born as an elephant, a gandharva is cursed to be born as a crocodile. Both meet. The cursed gandharva is killed by Vishnu and becomes a gandharva again, without action on his side. He returns to be what he was.
Gajendra does something, he prays and Vishnu takes him to his abode. He does not return (?).

Is this puranic abode the sphere that Krishna describes in XV.6?

Bhakti poetry is also full of 'Shiva/Vishnu took him to his abode' or 'he became one with Shiva/Vishnu'. To reach it one has to be a good person and a devotee. A state of consciousness is not mentioned.

Seems the term depends on the literary genre and the darshana.

Puranas and Bhakti poetry talk about Moksha/Mukti. The scriptures talking about consciousness use Samadhi/Turiya. Upanishads talk about becoming Brahman.

There is no treatise necessary to teach about the ‚coming back‘. It is so easy.

Pranam

[ameyAtmA]

Namaste IndiaLover

I did not notice that you had mentioned the Chandogya and Gita chapters in the first para -- I just saw the bold titles without chapter numbers. That is all.


The way I see it - dhAm - abode,place and state of consciousness -
a) go hand in hand
b) one can be a mukta irrespective of the place as long as there is grace, and also mumukshatva.

The 3rd thing, and most important = GRACE of BhagavAn / Ishvar - without which you can neither go to a place nor elevate the state of conciousness.

Samadhi is not necessarily one rigid meaning.

So I do not seggregate the language of upanishad , Bhagvad Geeta or the purANs. Because it is all interconnected. Generally to go to a certain abode you have to be in an elevated level of consciousness. Otherwise you will not be able to maintain the status quo there. You may not even like it there.

Gajendra did take a step - and that was "surrender" - prApatti. With leg in Guha's mouth, suddenly he had the wisdom to call Hari, to turn to Hari, and had understood Who matters and Who the ultimate shelter is - and had developed vairAgya -- all in a matter of a few minutes.
He sang a devotional poem. All of this was a drastic leap in consciousness.

A large percentage of Yogis who arrive at the peaceful state are generally theistic and constantly being showered by the Lord's grace. They are in sAnidhya (associate with) their IshTa -- so they are in His abode and simultaneously here.


Thanks for the links.

[ameyAtmA]

Also, regarding the Sun and Moon metaphors - yes they are found all over the Hindu scriptures.

Some shlokas use them for Ida-PingLA , and I think they are also used to represent mind(moon) and AtmA (Sun) perfectly.

However BG15.6 is clearly using them to demonstrate the enlightened state (light) versus ignorance (darkness) - as indicated in my first post. The enlightened state does not require illumination from a 3rd source of light such as Sun, Moon or Fire because in this state, in that dhAm (tad dhAm), the Being is Self-Illuminated/illuminating as there is complete absence of darkness i.e. ignorance - avidyA.


BhagavAn is implying that this place is Self-illuminating. There is no trace of darkness (avidyA) there. If there is no trace of avidyA , no desires, no specifically local-egoistic endeavours, no attempt to serve the ego, then there is no need to come back from that state.

[ameyAtmA]

Namaste,
Speaking of Sun and Moon, a great reference is the Uddhav Geeta - which happens to be a section of Shrimad BhAgvat purAN Canto 11 (Chap 5 onwards)
which is a conversation between Shri KRshNa and Uddhav, where KRshNa spills pearls of Truth.

KRshNa says Moon-Sun represent the pitruyana and devayana marga thru' the IdA-PingaLA , the left and right nADis (referenced in post above) , while sushumna goes thru' the centre to Bramharandra at the top of the skull.

[SuryaVedanta754]

Moksha means liberation. It means that the soul has attained a high state of spiritual development, in which the soul transcends all karmic limitations. At that time, the soul is no longer obligated to reincarnate.

There are states of spirituality that are higher than moksha or liberation. The highest state is that of siddhi, or God-realization. Most souls who attain liberation, continue on the spiritual path in order to attain God-Realization.

If a soul attains moksha, but does not attain God-Realization in that life, the soul will then reincarnate in order to attain the higher state.

this is a kind of summary from the writings of Sri Chinmoy. I believe I have read similar things in the writings of other great saints, but I do not recall exactly right now.

(In 2007, Sri Chinmoy was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by Archbishop Desmond Tutu and former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. Sri Chinmoy conducted meditations at the United Nations for about 30 years and at the US Congress for about 20 years.)

[Viraja]

Moksha means liberation. It means that the soul has attained a high state of spiritual development, in which the soul transcends all karmic limitations. At that time, the soul is no longer obligated to reincarnate.

There are states of spirituality that are higher than moksha or liberation. The highest state is that of siddhi, or God-realization. Most souls who attain liberation, continue on the spiritual path in order to attain God-Realization.

If a soul attains moksha, but does not attain God-Realization in that life, the soul will then reincarnate in order to attain the higher state.

this is a kind of summary from the writings of Sri Chinmoy. I believe I have read similar things in the writings of other great saints, but I do not recall exactly right now.

(In 2007, Sri Chinmoy was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by Archbishop Desmond Tutu and former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. Sri Chinmoy conducted meditations at the United Nations for about 30 years and at the US Congress for about 20 years.)

Namaste,

That was a splendid piece of information!

I have a related question.

Is the 'reality' different for one who attained mukthi via traditional bakthi yoga vs. other means to realize god such as Ashtanga Yoga, etc.?

Which is to ask, whether the capabilities are different between the 2? (One who realizes through bakthi yoga. vs. one who realizes through Ashtanga Yoga).

Thanks.

[SuryaVedanta754]

Paramahansa Yogananda said directly that he did so. Moksha, or liberation is a high state of evolution. But siddhi, God-realization is one step beyond. Once a soul achieves siddhi, they rarely return, or they return for just a lifetime or two, to get an even higher state of God-realization and also serve humanity.

that is taken from the writings of Paramahansa Yogananda, Sri Chinmoy, and perhaps several other Yogis...