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ranjeetmore
23 November 2009, 03:44 PM
"Na tatra chakshur gacchhati na bha gacchhati no manah." -1.3 Kenopanishad



Your senses,your mind and your intelligence CANNOT go there.They Can NEVER know Brahm.They are material/jada/prakrt/mayic.


The following mantras are found in the Kenopanishad:

"Yad vacha nav vyudatitam yena vag vyudate tad eva brahm tvam viddinedam yadytam upasate" - 1.4

"jana mana san manute yena hurmano matam tad eva brahm viddinedam yadytam upasate" - 1.5

"ya chakshu cana pashyate yena chakshu 'vam pashyati tad eva brahm tvam viddi " - 1.6

"ya kshotrena na ksrunoti he na kshotra midam ksrutam tad eva brahm tvam viddi nedam yadytam upasate" - 1.7

"yah pranena na praaneti he na praanah praneeyate tad eva brahm tvam viddi nedam yadytam upasate" - 1.8

These verses mean :
Bhagavan PROVIDES the Energies in your senses,your Mind and your Intelligence.
With THAT energy do all these faculties perform work.Without His energy,they are INCAPABLE to perform their respective work.

NOW,the import is :

Bhagavan/His energies are the ones that put life into your senses/mind and intelligence,
exactly how the Sun powers up the solar light.
With that solar energy,the solar lights work.

Lets say the solar light is a torch (our senses/mind/intelligence) powered by the Sun (Bhagavan).

NOW TELL ME,
CAN YOUR TORCH LIGHT THROW LIGHT ON THE SUN ?




I'll answer that for you - NO,The torch light is incapable of throwing light on the Sun.

So How do you propose that we will understand Bhagavan/His Form/His names/His Being with our pathetic intelligence?

It CANNOT THROW LIGHT ON BHAGAVAN.Period.

for Bhagavan Himself is the cause for making your Senses/Intelligence work.

"Prakashak se prakashit vastu apne prakashak ki prakashika NAHI BAN SAKTI. " - Sri Maharaj ji.


This is exactly what happens in the incident narrated in the Kenopanishad.
All the great demigods like Indra,Agni are UNABLE to even Pierce the Transcendental Fiery,Effulgent Form of Sri Krsna.
They're unable to even look upon Him.

"Yadi manyate tu vedeti"- 2.1 Kenopanishad.

If you think that you know/can know/will know Brahm,then there is not a bigger fool than you.
e.g. Kalidas.






"Yato vacho ni vartante apraapya mana sasaha" taitereya upanishad 2.4/ also found in the same upanishad 2.9.

Your senses and Mind and Intelligence Cannot GO there.They CaN NEVER grasp even a hair of Brahm.APRAAPYA. He is Unfathomable.Any and Every Part of Him is Unfathomable.
Even a small part of Him or any Aspect of Him is incomprehensible.

Why ?

Purnasya purna medaya...

He is the Ultimate whole.


"Tadah avyakta maha" - Vedanta Sutra 3.2.22

He is Avyakta....Beyond Everything.


"Ram Swarupa Tumhara
Vachan Agochar Buddhi PARA !"

Sri Tulsidasa says,"That Brahm is Rama Swarup.He is BEYOND the grasp of your intelligence."

"Avigat akath apaar
Ram atarkya buddhi man vaani
mat hamar asa sun hu sayaani
go gochar jaha lagi man jaayi
so sab maaya janhu bhai."

Tarkya- means logic.Tulsidas says,"Don't take your logic there ! Ramacandra is BEYOND your intelligence,mind and speech . Those who are Intelligent Will heed to this advice of mine.Why cannot you understand Him by reasoning ?
I'll tell you why.Wherever your Mind,intelligence and senses go,it is LIMITED only to Mayic region.It CANNOT go Beyond Maya."

Thus Sri Tulsidas explains in such simple language so as to let even the fool understand the vedas.

Okay.We cannot know Him.But what about the great intellectuals ?
Brahma,Saraswati,Brhaspati ?

"Jag pe khan sab dekhan haare
vidhi hari shambhu nachavan haare
Teu na jaanahi Maram Tumhara
aur tumhi ko jaanan haara."

Rama ! Brahma,Vishnu and Mahesvara Do not Know You ! Who else will then Know you !?

"VedaAham samatitani vartamanani caarjuna
bhavishyani ca bhutani Mam TU VEDA NA KASHCHANN" - Bhagavad Gita 7.26

"Arjuna , I know Everyone BUT NO ONE can know Me.NO ONE."

Why ?

"Trbhir guna mayayair bhavair ebhih sarvam idam jagat
Mohitam nabhijanati mam ebhyah param Avyayam." Bhagavd Gita 7.13

No ONE can know Me,Because they are ALL under the three Modes of My Maya.I'm beyond these three Modes,divya.



So the conclusion is : No one can know Bhagavan.No one.No one.No one.

So no use putting forward some logical questions about the nature/aspect/form of Brahm.

ranjeetmore
23 November 2009, 03:45 PM
Continuing from previous post,
Who can Know Bhagavan ?

The simple answer is: Bhagavan.

So He can give this Knowledge to others ?
Yes.

Brhatvat Brinhadhatvat ca. - sruti.

Brahm means One who is the Greatest and Who makes others also Great.



***

"Ano raniyan mahato mahiyan atma guhayam mihitosyajantotamah
kratuh pasyati bhisa shoko dhatuh prasadan mahiman misam"

-Svetasvatara upanishad 3.20
-Kathopanishad 1.2.20

DHATUH PRASADAN MAHIMAN MISAM- With His Krpa(The word Prasada has been used).With His Mercy,ANYONE can know Him.Otherwise it is not possible.
Anyone ?
Yes even cats,dogs,donkeys.Even an Elephant came to the knowledge of that Brahm.

***

Why is veda contradicting itself? It IS NOT.The vedas say NO ONE CAN KNOW BRAHM ON THEIR OWN STRENGTH.And now,


"Nayamatma pravachanena labhya na medhaya na bahuna shrutena yah me vai sh bhrinute...... "
- Kathopanishad 1.2.23
- Mundakopanishad 3.2.3

You cannot Know that Brahm by listening to lectures (Pravachan),

Na medhaya- The greatest of all intellectuals cannot grasp Him.

Na bahuna shrutena- You may listen to the vedas thousands of times but you will never attain Him.

So How ?

Yah me vai sh Bhrnute- Those who recieve His mercy can ALONE Know Him.

***

"Deva prasadat ca" - Svetasvatara Upanishad 6.21

His krpa/Mercy/prasada is a must.Otherwise forget it.

"Atha api te deva padambuja dvaya prasada lesa nugrihit eva hijanati
tattvam bhagavann mahimno na chanya eko viciram vichinman."- Srimad Bhagvatam 10.14.29

Srila Vedavyasa states that even if someone does any type of sadhana/penance/yoga/etc for crores of Kalpas(1 kalpa=511 trillion years ?),it doesn't matter.You won't be able to catch a hair of Bhagavan.

Then how ?
If He bestows some mercy (krpa kataksh/prasada lesa).Only a little mercy,that's it.

***
Arjuna said,"Nasto Mohah smritir labdha tvat prasadan mayacyutasthito 'smi gata sandehah karisye vacanam tava."

-Bhagavad Gita 18.73

Krsna ! By YOUR MERCY I am no longer under illusion.BY YOUR MERCY.Tvat prasadan.

***

"Ram Krpa binu sunu khag rayi
jaani na jaayi Ram Prabhu taayi
Jaane bina na hoye para teeti
Binu Para teeti na hoyi hi preeti
Tumhari krpa tum hi Raghu nandan
Jaanat bhagat bhagat urchandan
Ram Krpa Nasha Hi sab rogah." - Sri Tulsidas.

His Krpa ALONE.You cannot Know Him at all without His Mercy."

So daasi Raghuveer ki
Samujhe Mithya sopy
chutaye na Ram Kripa binu
naath kahu pada roopy."

This Maya is the servant of Sri Rama.I declare that without Ram Kripa This Maya will not Go.


There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that Brahm can be known without His mercy.

Problem solved.

Find a person who has recieved Bhagavan's Mercy and ask him,"What is the form of Brahm ?"

He will then tell you.

This is the importance of Sri HAri bhakti-it is the only way to attain mercy of brahm.

amith vikram
24 November 2009, 03:13 AM
hi,
a man can attain mukti only by grace of narayan.true...
but,how do we make sure that he has noticed our bhakti?i may think-i love hari and hari loves me.but what is the reality?and is there any STANDARD ways to show our bhakti?
in short,what is the proof of this theory?men have attained mukti in so many ways.shishupala attained mukti even though he blamed krishna all his life.even out of hundreds of thousands of brahmins who followed the vedas,only few attained mukti.
lastly,if we say that only hari bhakti is the way out(which i know is true),then what about the people living somewhere near the amazon,people who treat sun,moon,earth as ultimate god?what does the veda say about them?
i have asked these questions out of curiosity.

sambya
24 November 2009, 10:08 AM
hi,
a man can attain mukti only by grace of narayan.true...
but,how do we make sure that he has noticed our bhakti?i may think-i love hari and hari loves me.but what is the reality?and is there any STANDARD ways to show our bhakti?
in short,what is the proof of this theory?men have attained mukti in so many ways.shishupala attained mukti even though he blamed krishna all his life.even out of hundreds of thousands of brahmins who followed the vedas,only few attained mukti.
lastly,if we say that only hari bhakti is the way out(which i know is true),then what about the people living somewhere near the amazon,people who treat sun,moon,earth as ultimate god?what does the veda say about them?
i have asked these questions out of curiosity.


i will give you a short answer from the perspective of ranjeet(im acquainted with that) . followers of other religion can attain mukti somehow , even if they do not subscribe to hari-bhakti . but the situation is doomed for shaktas , shaivas or other sects of the subcontinent . they must rethink their ways if they are to reach enlightment .....

chandu_69
24 November 2009, 10:37 AM
i will give you a short answer from the perspective of ranjeet(im acquainted with that) . followers of other religion can attain mukti somehow , even if they do not subscribe to hari-bhakti . but the situation is doomed for shaktas , shaivas or other sects of the subcontinent . they must rethink their ways if they are to reach enlightment .....

Obviously the perspective is wrong , and you, sambya, pretty well know that.Why make an issue out of a wrong perspective?.if, ranjeet subscribed to that view he might as well has changed it.



men have attained mukti in so many ways
That is correct.And Srikrishna explains so in bhagavadgita.But, the path suitable for many(and perhaps easiest) is Bhakthi(surrender).

sambya
24 November 2009, 11:18 AM
Obviously the perspective is wrong , and you, sambya, pretty well know that.Why make an issue out of a wrong perspective?.if, ranjeet subscribed to that view he might as well has changed it.


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That is correct.And Srikrishna explains so in bhagavadgita.But, the path suitable for many(and perhaps easiest) is Bhakthi(surrender).



nothing is wrong with the prespective . however it might be outdated if he have indeed changed his views , as u are saying !

ranjeetmore
24 November 2009, 12:50 PM
hi,
a man can attain mukti only by grace of narayan.true...
but,how do we make sure that he has noticed our bhakti?i may think-i love hari and hari loves me.but what is the reality?and is there any STANDARD ways to show our bhakti?
in short,what is the proof of this theory?men have attained mukti in so many ways.shishupala attained mukti even though he blamed krishna all his life.even out of hundreds of thousands of brahmins who followed the vedas,only few attained mukti.
lastly,if we say that only hari bhakti is the way out(which i know is true),then what about the people living somewhere near the amazon,people who treat sun,moon,earth as ultimate god?what does the veda say about them?
i have asked these questions out of curiosity.

The svetasvatara upanishad states that paramatma is seated in the mind along with the jeevatma.He notes down each and every karma of the jeeva.
The bhagavatam confirms this.

In the bhagavatam Brahmadeva says to sadashiva,"You are the paramatma seated within evryone's heart."

Countless other instances are there in the bhagavatam where Sri Krsna and Sri Vishnu are said to be the paramtma seated in everyone's heart.

So Bhagavan knows eveything that the Jeevatma does,otherwise,who will give the fruits of karma ?

Secondly,men have not attained mukti in so many ways.The vedas are saying,"you attain His grace.Period."
Svetasvatara muni says,"Oh men,I have realised Brahm and I declare HE can be known only by obtaining His grace."

Read Ramkrishna paramhamsa's words,"Mother's grace..Mother's grace...Mother's grace.." everyhwere.

Sisupala had his mind attached to sri KRsna.He was jealous of Sri Krsna.Everytime,he would be simply thinking of showing Sri Krsna down.His mind was completely immersed in the thought of Sri KRsna.
Sri Krsna is absolute.There is only one mind.However the mind is attached to God,immediately it is detached from maya.It's simple logic actually.
So sisupala had his mind attached to Sri Krsna.
Kamsa would see Krsna everywhere,in his plate,in his cloth.So he went to Goloka.
There is a beautiful statement in the Visnu Purana : "Remember this:There is only one Vidhi and one Nishedh.Vidhi is to always remember Sri Visnu and Nishedha is to never forget Him."
Vidhi means "to do.'"
Nishedh means "not to do"


People living in the amazon are not innocent people who are living their first life.Jeevatma,Paramatma and maya all three are eternal and indestructible : so say the vedas.
Jeevatma does heinous/good/mixture of karma and so he gets a suitable birth.There should be nothing confusing about this.The law of Karma is what sets Hindu religion apart from other religions.Othr religions cannot explain why a beggar's son is suffering and why bill gates' son in not.

radhe radhe.

atanu
24 November 2009, 11:36 PM
The svetasvatara upanishad states that paramatma is seated in the mind along with the jeevatma.He notes down each and every karma of the jeeva.


Namaste Ranjeet,

You are correct.


People living in the amazon are not innocent people who are living their first life.Jeevatma,Paramatma and maya all three are eternal and indestructible : so say the vedas.
Jeevatma does heinous/good/mixture of karma and so he gets a suitable birth.There should be nothing confusing about this.The law of Karma is what sets Hindu religion apart from other religions.Othr religions cannot explain why a beggar's son is suffering and why bill gates' son in not.

radhe radhe.

Correct again but please consider that there may be more to it. I request you to please read the other post also.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=35655&postcount=114

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
25 November 2009, 07:04 AM
As evidence for what has been said above:

Satapatha Brahmana

10:4:3:1. The Year, doubtless, is the same as Death; for he it is who, by means of day and night, destroys the life of mortal beings, and then they die: therefore the Year is the same as Death; and whosoever knows this Year (to be) Death, his life that (year) does not destroy, by day and night, before old age, and he attains his full (extent of) life.

10:5:2:3. And that man in yonder (sun's) orb is no other than Death; and that glowing light is that immortal element: therefore Death does not die, for he is within the immortal; and therefore he is not seen, for he is within the immortal.


10:5:1:4. Now, this speech is yonder sun, and this (Agni, the Fire-altar) is Death: hence whatsoever is on this side of the sun all that is field by Death; and he who builds it (the Fire-altar) on this side thereof, builds it as one held by Death, and he surrenders his own self unto Death; but he who builds it thereabove, conquers recurring Death, for by his knowledge that (altar) of his is built thereabove.
-----------------------

10:5:4:16. Regarding this there is this verse--'By knowledge they ascend that (state) where desires have vanished: sacrificial gifts go not thither, nor the fervid practisers of rites without knowledge;'--for, indeed, he who does not know this does not attain to that world either by sacrificial gifts or by devout practices, but only to those who know does that world belong.

Om Namah Shivaya