Renunciation

[elissa]

I have been going to a ISKCON temple with my husband and we really enjoy the kirtans and the classes. We are trying to be more Krishna Conscious and are trying to be less materialistic. We are thinking of raising our kids in this tradition, however I am very confused about renunciation.

I think that it is perfectly fine for a man to feel called to be a priest and to dedicate himself compeletely to serving God. I do not understand why a man with a family whether he is young or old would feel called to renounce and leave his family in order to serve others. His immidiate family should be the priority.

In cases where his children are grown, doesnt that man still have a responsibility towards his wife? This is something that I am really having trouble understanding. If anyone could help clear this up that would be great. Thanks :)

Hare Krishna

[saidevo]

namaste Elissa.

The life of a Hindu has four Ashramas--stages: brahmacharya--bachelorhood, gRhastha--householder, vAnaprastha--dweller in solitude, and sannyAsa--asceticism.

brahmacharya: The parents send the boy when he was seven years old, to a guru to study the Vedas and other Hindu scriptures, residing in the guru's home and serving him. This type of education is known as the gurukulam--guru's tradition, and was practised in India until Macaulay introduced the western education system during the collonial days. The period of bachelorhood education varied from seven to fourteen years.

gRhastha: The boy is married, and lives in a joint family with his parents, both the husband and wife being guided in life by the elders. The boy seeks an udyogam--job and earns; the girls remains at home--cooking, serving and maintaining the family. She has already been given an education designed for women during her spinsterhood. She continues it by devoting her time to reading, fine arts, and bhakti--devotion to God. The dampati--husband and wife enjoy marital life, bring forth kids and rear them in the Hindu family tradition.

vAnaprastha: When a man reaches the age of sixty, he is already a grandfather, his wife has grown old, and the dampati are in a stage to think seriously about the spiritual aspects of their worldly life. It is time now to practice whatever they had learned in the scriptures they studied. So they start the process of vichAraNam--inquiry, and dhyAnam--meditation. Many couples also go on kShetrAdanam--pilgrimages. With such practices, they try to live a pure life, untouched by the worries and woes of the worldly life. The worries and woes are there of course, but they learn not to be affected by them, as they gradually experience that their in-dwelling Atman--Self is only a witness to their physical life in this birth. They accumulate good karma by meritorious acts, so they can spend the maximum time of afterlife in the heavens, and assured of a better and more advanced rebirth.

sannyAsa: Some men are not satisfied with the prospects of blissful life in the heavens. They seek to transcend the cycle of reincarnation. The only way to do this is to renounce the worldly life, and practice yoga and meditation, under the guidance of a guru. Such people are always there in all religious communities--those whose very nature is to do the sAdhana--practice for Atma-jnAnam--Self-Realization.

In the olden days, the vAnaprastha and the sannyAsa stages were practised in the solitude and privacy of woods, in the lap of mother nature. However, the Hindus had always known that it is not necessary to seek the woods for these stages and that the renunciation is not physical life but remaining unaffected by it, by reducing one's needs and desires and practising to be a witness to both good and bad that comes by. Thus, in today's life, a Hindu essentially remains as a householder and practises asceticism with the exception of some people whose very nature is to seek sannyAsa, giving up worldly life. Even such people do it with the full consent of their family and spouse, after providing for the means for their sustenance.

A drop of water always tries to get back to its source. Some ignorant drops just vanish in the earth. Some are wise to merge themselves with the larger sources such as a river--the knowledge of a guru, so they are assured of a safe passage back to the ocean.

[sambya]

things which are priorities to u may not be necessarily priorities to others. it depends on an individuals own perspctive .

the cuase behind this human intelligent existence is self realization or god realization . sooner or later we r all going to ataain enlightment . for some pure sould the process might have already set in and for some not so pure souls it might take many more births . but the end is always in realization . in vedic discipline moksha or enlightment is always kept at a higher place than kama or artha etc . liberation or realization is the last word of vedic civilization .

the target is to see god and experience himself yourself . untill this happens there is no liberation . and in order to make it happen one must devote himself totally to god in mind baody and speech . intitally this is extremely hard , but as one progrsses in sadhanabhakti krishna comes to dominate his mind in every way . this grows untill it becomes unbearable for him to live without krishna . all his activities , prayers , thoughts become directed towards him . at thia stage he cannot tolerate the company of worldly minded men . he cannot spend time in useless gossips . the intense hunger for god drives him crazy . this is the time of renunciation . renunciation is not a denial of material world . it is a temporary withdrawal to devote all of his time to krishna . as this stage he cannot maintain his material side , no matter how hard he tries .

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

I have a slightly different POV on this matter. I do not disagree with what has been offered above, just a different way of looking at it.

This notion of renouncing is not so much of leaving home and all that . Yet I can see why and will explain my opinion in a moment.

Renunciation is all about becoming unstuck . The saṃskṛt word is asaṃga¹. In a word it is to become unfastened. One can easily make the connection of this idea of becoming 'unfastened' to obligations, friends, community, etc. and pursue one's intent in a remote place.
While this notion is typically ~assigned~ to one āśrama ('halting place') in life, the āśrama of the sannyās, it has a deeper significance. How so?

This asaṃga has much to do with becoming unfastened to what you are not. And what is that? The body. Our true SELF is not the body. There are several indications the wise call out on this:

anavayāt
dṛśyatvāt
apayitcāt
āgantugatvāt
annakāryatvāt
anavayāt - The body is not the SELF because it does not persist.
dṛśyatvāt - The body is not-SELF because it is seen (dṛśya);
apāyitvāt - apa अप away, back ; tva त्व thy, your ; apāya अपाय- going away , departure ,destruction , death , annihilation . The body is the not-Self because upon its destruction (apāya) it ceases to be.
āgantugatvāt - it indicates that which adheres to (āgantu) and approaches, goes toward (gatvā) death (gam). This is the body. Hence the body is the not-Self due to this condition of decay and goes towards death.
annakāryatvāt - This indicates that the body, you (tva) is the not-Self because it is made or done (kārya) or is the result of eating food (anna). Food is perishable, hence the body ( made of food) is also perishable and there fore cannot be the Imperishable Self.This is the significance of renunciation. To understand and experience that which you are, and become 'unstuck' from that which you are not. Now does the clutter of every day life get in the way of doing this? That is not for me to decide.

The question one must ask - is it only possible to realize this truth as a sannyāsin? I will leave my views for another post, but thought this knowledge was worthy of posting.

Stuck (sañjayati¹) = ignorance. Unstuck (asasañjat¹) = liberated.

praṇām

words

asaṃga = a + saṃga = a or not + saṃga 'coming together' ( also written saṅga that is rooted in sañj to be attached or fastened , adhere , cling , stick )
sañjayati - to cause to stick or cling to , unite or connect hence asasañjat is to be unstuck

[elissa]

Thanks to everyone who responded. There are probably many ways of looking at it. My husband and I usually watch the lectures at mayapur.tv and there was recently one on renunciation and I am having trouble understanding it.

So one doesnt have to physically leave his family and community to serve others, become unattached and realize that he is not his body?

Thanks again and Hare Krishna

[Eastern Mind]

I have been going to a ISKCON temple with my husband and we really enjoy the kirtans and the classes. We are trying to be more Krishna Conscious and are trying to be less materialistic. We are thinking of raising our kids in this tradition, however I am very confused about renunciation.

I think that it is perfectly fine for a man to feel called to be a priest and to dedicate himself compeletely to serving God. I do not understand why a man with a family whether he is young or old would feel called to renounce and leave his family in order to serve others. His immidiate family should be the priority.

In cases where his children are grown, doesnt that man still have a responsibility towards his wife? This is something that I am really having trouble understanding. If anyone could help clear this up that would be great. Thanks :)

Hare Krishna

Vanakkam Elissa: I am not sure about ISKCON and its teachings. I will offer a different point of view. There are basically only two dharmic paths, that of the renunciate, and householder. Renunciation should happen before any karmic or sexual connections happen at all. Young men becoming monks, (sanyassins) or young women becoming nuns (sanyassinis). The householder who drops his duties would only be able under dharmic law with total support from his wife and family, which would be unusual. In my view, if a man were to 'take off' it would be adharmic, and he would have to suffer the karmic consequences of that action in a future life. Of course, people want to jump ahead, and do what they hear about yet may be incapable of doing because of their maturity soul wise. I believe it is unwise to attempt what you are not ready for. Of course other views will vary.

Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté Ellisa



So one doesnt have to physically leave his family and community to serve others, become unattached and realize that he is not his body?

There are many customs, traditions and dharmic practices that have been reviewed above. What I am going to offer will require some pondering and understanding.

There are few ways one can renounce … the physical attribute we see is the 'action in the flesh' , to remove ones-self from every day activities and pursue a mendicant's way of life. This we 'see' with our eyes as the person leaves and retires to a quiet place to perform his/her tapas ( ~ purification~).

What we do not 'see' is the spiritual, subtler part of this action and that is of one's internal meditation and inward march of the mind. With the proper spiritual practice (upāya) the aspirant experiences samādhi. That is, the inward march of the mind ( pratiprasava¹ some also use the word parivṛtt ) one arrives at a state of pure awareness. This process some like to call transcending others call it by a different name, and this occurs over and over in one's practice. This is the 'tapas' the purification, the grooming of the nervous system to live this unbounded condition at all times ( 7x24x365 days a year).

So please , watch the notion and words offered next so there is no confusion. you mention this,

one doesn't have to physically leave his family and community ... become unattached and realize that he is not his body?

Yes, Ellisa, one DOES have to leave this level of existence all behind, completely 100% for one to arrive at this pure consciousness level of Being. This is what is renounced - all the relative field of existence is 'left behind' when one transcends. Family, friends, even one's personal thoughts and mind are all given up when one arrives at this pure awareness ~samādhi~ level of Being. This can ( and is ) done by gṛhastha (householder) and sannyāsin alike. This can occur in the forest, or in the front-room, location is optional. But there is more to this story.

What you are really asking ( me thinks) does one have to physically pack-up their belongings and physically leave for one to experience annakāryatvāt , that the body is not the SELF ( pure awareness, pure Being)?
I am of the belief that is a personal decision one needs to make on their own… Let me give you a simple ( really simple) example.
How often can children sit in front of a TV set and do their homework? Or keep an iPOD plugged into their ears and listen to music while doing math problems? Some people can do this , of this there is no doubt, yet some cannot.

It is all about distractions. I cannot tell you how many people have asked for help in meditating, then when asked how is your practice? They mention ' Oh, I was on a trip' , 'I had to take the kids to soccer practice' , 'The car needed repairs' , ' The _________ broke ( fill in the blank)' . Human intention is good but follow through many times is lacking.

Many people can make the commitment for upāsana , their meditation time and practice, yet many are too tightly coupled ( upādāna - mental clinging) to activities and the frazzle-frolic-fun of daily life's actions and more actions.

So what does one do ? The gṛhastha (householder) does not pursue a spiritual discipline? - this does not pass my common sense test. Yet to NOT dedicate time for one's spiritual pursuits intently/completely also does not seem to meet dharmic traditions. That is why the wise have suggested age periods to do certain actions. In post 2, Saidevo outlines these times.

I hope this adds a few more logical pieces to the puzzle.


praṇām


words




pratiprasava is a tatpuruṣa ( a compund word) made of prati + prasava meaning returning to the original state.
prati प्रति means back , again , in return + prasava प्रसव means being set in motion. It also means birthplace and procreation.
So when we add this together prati or back, return + prasava or birthplace = returning back, or reversing the birth process , or returning back to the original state.
parivṛtti परिवृत्ति- turning, or returning
withdrawal ( pratiprasava ) & coming back from the withdrawal parivṛtti.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté


One day a sannyāsin was doing his tapas accordingly in a remote cave. Then one day he felt the light (prakāś) had come. He felt it was time to decend down the mountian and bring his wisdom to the village.

Upon his way he crossed paths with a beggar. The begger asked for anything that the sannyāsin could spare in terms of food or funds.

The sannyāsin scolded him and said , ' move aside! I am in route to the village and have some important wisdom to offer them!! Do not stop my forward progress.'

Upon hearing his own words, the sannyāsin turned about and headed back to his cave.

praṇām

[kd gupta]

Hindu dharm scriptures direct all human beings to renunciate unpious activities , they never say to become a hypocritical saint . If some one is not knower about god , let him be a devotee and if he does not have time to devote , let he only remember the name of god , chanting and reciting as and when possible .Gita says..
Api chet suduraachaaro bhajate maamananyabhaak;
Saadhureva sa mantavyah samyagvyavasito hi sah.
Even if the most sinful, remembers Me, without any deviation , he too should indeed be
regarded as righteous, for he has rightly resolved.


Devoteeji pl. may throw some more light on this matter .

[Eastern Mind]

Vanakkam:

There are two kinds of people: those that prostrate, and those that don't. Those that prostrate are renouncing their egos, giving it all up, to God, the higher Self within. This is really the essence of renunciation.

Aum Namasivaya

[ScottMalaysia]

ISKCON is very big on renunciation, and not just leaving home and becoming a sannyasi (which is what their founder did). They teach that one should have no material desires at all and not attachment to sense objects. While this may be fine for sannyasis (Chaitanya started his movement as one for sannyasis), it is very difficult for householders. They teach that sex is only for procreation, and that it is wrong to have sex for pleasure. If you and your husband/wife intend to have sex, you will need to chant 50 rounds of the Maha-Mantra (5400 repetitions of the mantra) first. I don't know if this is inclusive of your daily 16 rounds (1728 repetitions of the mantra) or not.

Are there any other Vaishnava temples in your town? Any under the Ramanuja or Madhva Sampradayas? If there are, I'd recommend going to them instead of ISKCON. While ISKCON has opened many temples in the west, their teachings are a bit off. For example, they claim that Krishna alone is the Supreme Lord, and that Lord Shiva, Goddess Durga, Lord Ganesha etc are Krishna's servants (Prabhupada selectively translates the Sanskrit word deva as "demigod when it refers to any god other than Krishna). Srila Prabhupada specifically told them not to worship Lord Ganesha. They also claim that the Srimad-Bhagavatam (Bhagavata Purana) is the main scripture for this age and that the Vedas are no longer relevant since they were intended for earlier ages. There is no scriptural evidence for this.

If you are really interested in Gaudiya Vaishnavism (the sect of Hinduism that ISKCON practices), then you should check out other Gaudiya organisations. The Gaudiya Math run by Narayana Maharaj has spread to the West as well. From what his followers told me, he is more concerned with your sincerity rather than the "specifics" like how many rounds you chant. I wrote a letter to Narayana Maharaj, and in his reply he stated that he would give the first level of initiation to those who chant only 4 rounds every day (in comparison with ISKCON's 16 rounds every day). He also stated that he is not responsible for devotees' behaviour in grihasta ashram (married life) so it seems like he may not be as strict on the "no sex except for kids" issue. To find out more about his mission visit www.purebhakti.com

[keshava]

I have been going to a ISKCON temple with my husband and we really enjoy the kirtans and the classes. We are trying to be more Krishna Conscious and are trying to be less materialistic. We are thinking of raising our kids in this tradition, however I am very confused about renunciation.

I think that it is perfectly fine for a man to feel called to be a priest and to dedicate himself compeletely to serving God. I do not understand why a man with a family whether he is young or old would feel called to renounce and leave his family in order to serve others. His immidiate family should be the priority.

In cases where his children are grown, doesnt that man still have a responsibility towards his wife? This is something that I am really having trouble understanding. If anyone could help clear this up that would be great. Thanks :)

Hare Krishna

Hare Krishna Ellisa

Nice question.

My wife also had the same question. Like other posters mentioned there are 4 stages in life.

The first thing i think is important to understand is that these stages are secoundary - the first and foremost is devotional service to the lord whether one is married not married etc.

The 4 stages of life used to work like this. As student you would study up until 25ish- then in married life you would engage with your family in the Lords service - as your responsibilities diminish husband and wife enagage more and more in the Lords service roughly at 50 years of age as they are approaching the time of leaving their material bodies they focus more on god rather than each other their kids should have been married off at this age and be independent - the husband and wife are more free to serve. This retired stage is called varnaprashta. 3rd stage.

If at this stage (roughly the age of 70ish) the man feels an inclination to serve the world either because he feels extremely compassionate and wants to help his wider family(Humanity) before ineveitable death he may voluntary renounce (rather than involuntary at the time of death) and completely absorb in service then he can do it usually with the permission of his wife, guru and any other dependants making sure his wife is looked after.

There may be other exceptional cases where from the first stage one may not get married at all and jump to the forth.

However it is imporatnt to remember that these stages are not compulsory - the stages are there to help in a social systematic way to develop love of god throughout life they themselves are not the aim.

In some cases e.g in the time of war if one is married to a soldier he may risk his life for what he may see as a higher cause so in exceptional circumstances there have been instances where someone feels the urgency to help others, however traditionally it was usually done in a systematic way and not encouraged to leave when one has family responsibilities and commitments.

It actually doesnt matter whether one is married or not one can be a lover of god in any situation. Sometimes by immaturity one can think that if i renounce it will be easier to love god but this is usually not the case.

Hope that helps