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sunyata07
26 November 2009, 01:06 PM
Namaste,

I was initially going to post this as part of the thread I started over in the Scriptures forum on being reborn (http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=35688#post35688), but I feel the issue of suicide too much of a topic in its own right to be included in with how one might normally be reborn after a natural death, or even in an accident/murder which would stem moreso from the actions of others in the latter case and maybe in circumstances beyond your control in the case of dying in a road accident.

I know this topic may be quite sensitive for some people, not least for me, as I am personally acquainted with someone who took their own life just last year. In fact, it was the reminder of this person's anniversary which induced me to go write something about this. It was quite a shock to me at the time, because I saw this person nearly everyday of the week. The fact that I have never spoken to her would seem to some like it should not have affected me so much, but that was precisely the reason why I felt so shaken about it. We ran in different crowds, but I sometimes wonder if maybe she would still be here today if I had spoken to her more often or had got to know her better. I know I have nothing real to regret, but I'm sometimes troubled by the "what if's" that come into my mind. At the time I prayed for a good rebirth, but now I'm looking back on it I find myself wondering where this person might be.

I have a few questions about what the view is of suicide from the Sanatana Dharma perspective. In Christianity suicide constitutes as very serious sin and I think it's one of the main reasons why the issue remains such a taboo within Western societies (I'm not sure if this is equally true over in the East?). In Catholicism, the belief is that such people will go to purgatory - a sort of limbo world where they get a second chance in getting into heaven. It seems like very few people are willing to talk about it openly - maybe to avoid the painful idea that the deceased will not be destined for heaven as the family would like to think? The way in which these things are handled over where I live (I'm not sure about the rest of the western world) is sometimes going on the ridiculous. Support and suicide prevention programmes for today's youth is underfunded and almost ignored sometimes. It seems to me that people like to adopt that "out of sight, out of mind" stance with suicide but with the number of cases of depression rising in the modern world, it's going to become an even bigger issue in the near future than it is now.

What is the general belief in Hinduism of people who engage in atmahatya? And I'm not talking about suicide bombers who have it mind that they are on their way to paradise, or people who have decided to end their lives because they have been battling a terminal illness for a long time and without much avail. While these are also cases of suicide, the real intention behind these acts cannot be classed as the same as a depressed individual seeking to end his life if he sees it as being not worth living. I mean people who hate themselves or are in such mental anguish that they think death would be better than to live a moment longer. An individual's bhava at the time of his taking his own life must really be one that is as bad as it can get. Accidental death and murders are indeed terrible for a soul - the mind must be in such a flux of emotions like confusion, bitterness or regret that they must leave this life behind. But suicide would entail a lot of loathing for oneself or complete hopelessness in the face of the world. What will happen to a person who thinks in this manner in his last few moments of life and who has committed a murder? Because surely this must be quite a big spiritual devolution for the soul.

OM Shanti

sm78
26 November 2009, 11:17 PM
In hinduism too it is a sin, however taking one's life in certain situations is not only considered right but is infact preferred.

Hinduism teaches any decision must be taken with due thought on the action, the desire driving the action and the consiquences of it. In this process emotional haste has no place and rational thought and shastra vakya are the only guidance. A person does this thinking for all his tasks to be done for the day, the moment he gets up from bed.

Process of suicide is somewhat exact opposite to this, when in the spur of the moment driven by one overpowering emotion we take a life (which itself is sin, unless there are very strong reasons). So in itself it is contrary to dharmic action.

However, in situations when one's duty for the family and the society has been done (i.e he cannot do anything more) and the person has no more desire to live, one is allowed to take one's life by slowly starving/fasting himself over a period spanning months. Notice, that only persons who really don't have any desire to live can take up such a method. If the decision to die was an emotional haste, pangs of hunger will soon put some sense in the person in 2 days.

This method is most common among jain monks, but is accepted in hinduism as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santhara

atanu
26 November 2009, 11:44 PM
Namaste

prayopavesha and sati (to some extent) were two approved forms of atmahatya. Those are pre-meditated and Guru approved ways.

No understanding goes beyond the understanding of gunas. And only the Muktas are beyond the noose of gunas, which are put in place by the lawmaker Lord Varuna. From individual viewpoint, suicide under extreme depression (at being not able to cope with the world) in general arises from the feeling 'I am being hurt' or 'This world is cruel'. So, this has ignorance as its basis but I suppose that the mind of such depressed people are not cruel and not demonic.

It is commonly said that such do not enter unto Moon (Mind) or unto Sun (Self) but remain in the intermediate regions without body. It is a problem to work out karma, if one is bodiless, yet has a mind. So they come back soon, to start again. From my understanding and experience, I find that the souls with extreme anguish but without malice for others soon find refuge in God.

Om Namah Shivaya

TatTvamAsi
28 November 2009, 01:58 PM
Suicide is detrimental to the progression of the Atma towards its goal of SamAdhI. on a Karmic note, it can be looked upon as copping out of lifes tribulations by cutting one's life short; this however, in the grand scheme of things, does nothing. The soul will be reborn and will go through the EXACT events it was supposed to go through to burn through its Sanchita/PrArabdha Karma. So trying to escape the consequences by knocking the instrument through which we experience manifestation (aka body) out does nothing as the jIvA enters another one.

There are exceptions where suicide may not have any adverse effect but it is considered adharmic to engage in. Of course, the glaring contradiction between the East & West regarding this is the latter's obsession with the physical body! It is anti-thetical to Sanatana Dharma to become so attached even to one's body and consequently 99.9% of people are cremated.




Namaste,

I was initially going to post this as part of the thread I started over in the Scriptures forum on being reborn (http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=35688#post35688), but I feel the issue of suicide too much of a topic in its own right to be included in with how one might normally be reborn after a natural death, or even in an accident/murder which would stem moreso from the actions of others in the latter case and maybe in circumstances beyond your control in the case of dying in a road accident.

I know this topic may be quite sensitive for some people, not least for me, as I am personally acquainted with someone who took their own life just last year. In fact, it was the reminder of this person's anniversary which induced me to go write something about this. It was quite a shock to me at the time, because I saw this person nearly everyday of the week. The fact that I have never spoken to her would seem to some like it should not have affected me so much, but that was precisely the reason why I felt so shaken about it. We ran in different crowds, but I sometimes wonder if maybe she would still be here today if I had spoken to her more often or had got to know her better. I know I have nothing real to regret, but I'm sometimes troubled by the "what if's" that come into my mind. At the time I prayed for a good rebirth, but now I'm looking back on it I find myself wondering where this person might be.

I have a few questions about what the view is of suicide from the Sanatana Dharma perspective. In Christianity suicide constitutes as very serious sin and I think it's one of the main reasons why the issue remains such a taboo within Western societies (I'm not sure if this is equally true over in the East?). In Catholicism, the belief is that such people will go to purgatory - a sort of limbo world where they get a second chance in getting into heaven. It seems like very few people are willing to talk about it openly - maybe to avoid the painful idea that the deceased will not be destined for heaven as the family would like to think? The way in which these things are handled over where I live (I'm not sure about the rest of the western world) is sometimes going on the ridiculous. Support and suicide prevention programmes for today's youth is underfunded and almost ignored sometimes. It seems to me that people like to adopt that "out of sight, out of mind" stance with suicide but with the number of cases of depression rising in the modern world, it's going to become an even bigger issue in the near future than it is now.

What is the general belief in Hinduism of people who engage in atmahatya? And I'm not talking about suicide bombers who have it mind that they are on their way to paradise, or people who have decided to end their lives because they have been battling a terminal illness for a long time and without much avail. While these are also cases of suicide, the real intention behind these acts cannot be classed as the same as a depressed individual seeking to end his life if he sees it as being not worth living. I mean people who hate themselves or are in such mental anguish that they think death would be better than to live a moment longer. An individual's bhava at the time of his taking his own life must really be one that is as bad as it can get. Accidental death and murders are indeed terrible for a soul - the mind must be in such a flux of emotions like confusion, bitterness or regret that they must leave this life behind. But suicide would entail a lot of loathing for oneself or complete hopelessness in the face of the world. What will happen to a person who thinks in this manner in his last few moments of life and who has committed a murder? Because surely this must be quite a big spiritual devolution for the soul.

OM Shanti

yajvan
28 November 2009, 02:18 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté


Suicide is detrimental to the progression of the Atma towards its goal of SamAdhI. .

Well said TTA.

I offer the following just for contemplation on this matter. How many were consumed by fire in the Mahābhārata by choice?

King dhṛtarāṣṭra (eldest son of vyāsa ) and his queen gāndhāri.
And what of madri , wife of king pāṇḍu. Joining her husband in the funeral pyre. Some call this act sāti i.e. ending, destruction - also known as 'oblation' - as 'oblations' are offered in fire. There are more who took to this choice, yet they do not come to mind.

This ātma-hatha is a serious matter. My teacher said often , 'save the breath' . I would assume taking away the breath ( ātma = breath + hatha = killing ) would apply here.

praṇām

isavasya
28 November 2009, 03:04 PM
Namaste,

.



I have a few questions about what the view is of suicide from the Sanatana Dharma perspective.

What is the general belief in Hinduism of people who engage in atmahatya?
OM Shanti

Namaste Sunyata,

The view is very simple and clear, in Sanatan dharm, the objective of human birth is to find moksha or at least acquire enough good karma to get even better birth next time.By doing suicide and evading responsibility, people acquire bad karma and will sink further in darkness and not get human birth for long long time.During stage of grihasta one has many responsibilities towards family and society , so suicide is a paap, and after that during sanyas, one has to get closer to brahm, so still suicide is despicable.


Of very few times suicide may be permitted is if one has no responsibility towards anyone and one is repenting or atoning for a very serious crime.The great MimsAka kumarilla bhata, did gave his life ,because he had cheated upon his buddhist teacher ,by learning the core teachings of buddhism in disguise as a buddhist and then defeating his buddhist teacher, and winning the debate in favour of sanatan dharm.

Though kumarilla was one of the greatest sanatani, he did commited suicide, because he had done one wrong thing according to sanatan dharm's values.Here is short video you can see about that incidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9Iw8uu8HHs

ScottMalaysia
30 November 2009, 04:09 AM
I read somewhere that according to Hinduism, if you commit suicide, you will become a ghost and have to remain on earth until you would have died naturally. As a ghost you will still have the same desires as you did when alive, but no way to fulfill them.


In Christianity suicide constitutes as very serious sin and I think it's one of the main reasons why the issue remains such a taboo within Western societies (I'm not sure if this is equally true over in the East?). In Catholicism, the belief is that such people will go to purgatory - a sort of limbo world where they get a second chance in getting into heaven.

According to Catholic teaching, suicide is a mortal sin. A person who commits suicide, according to the Church, will go to hell unless there were mitigating circumstances such as mental illness. A suicide victim is refused a Christian burial by the Catholic Church.

Purgatory is a place where those who weren't good enough to go directly to heaven (which is most people) are "purged" of their sins. Those who die with venial sins on their soul, or the temporal guilt of mortal sin on their soul will go to Purgatory. I've heard that the fires of Purgatory are as intense as those of hell, but those who are there know that they will get to heaven one day. Those still living can pray for the departed in Purgatory and have Masses offered for them; such acts will shorten the time that the person has to spend in Purgatory. Purgatory is only for Catholics, according to traditional Catholic belief - those who are outside the Church will go to hell, since extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the Church there is no salvation).

Limbo is different again - Catholics teach that unbaptized babies to go Limbo. Catholics believe that everyone is born with "original sin" - the sin of
Adam and Eve, mankind's first parents. This sin is washed away by baptism. Since unbaptized babies still have this sin, it is debated, they cannot enter heaven, yet they have done nothing wrong themselves to deserve hell. There is no condemnation or suffering in Limbo like there is in hell, yet those in Limbo are deprived of the vision of God in heaven. It is not a dogma of the Catholic Church - it is a theory proposed by various theologians which Catholics are free to believe in or not believe in.

sunyata07
30 November 2009, 04:06 PM
Namaste everyone,

Thank you for your answers and your input. I've also been of the opinion that suicide is merely a delay in the fulfillment of a soul's destiny, whether that be in a living or non-living state.



According to Catholic teaching, suicide is a mortal sin. A person who commits suicide, according to the Church, will go to hell unless there were mitigating circumstances such as mental illness. A suicide victim is refused a Christian burial by the Catholic Church.



Namaste Scott. I'm not too sure where you got that last bit of information, because the girl (from a Catholic family) was buried with traditional Mass and a priest presiding. She even had a memorial service held for her in my college chapel where prayers were said asking God to grant her mercy and see her soul resting in peace. My parents would have known a few people with sisters, brothers or children who have also committed suicide and as far as I know they have all been buried in their respective parishes. The current RC Catechism does not state that those who have committed suicide go to hell. I remember hearing that a few hundred years ago the RC Church did say people would go to hell for killing themselves, but apparently this was to stop the sudden surge in suicides for people thinking they could receive one of the Blessed Sacraments (I'm not sure which one) and go straight to heaven after any death. Besides, it can be argued that anyone who commits suicide is essentially not in a healthy state of mind, and therefore are suffering from some mental or psychological illness.

Anyway, I think this is veering away from the topic. All I have to say on the Catholic Church's stance on suicide is that it has never been a finite view - over the course of the centuries it has changed, but I don't think their final belief in suicide is hell for the offender. As you have said on the topic of limbo, just as hell as a temporary/eternal place of damnation is seen differently by different Christian denominations, there also is personal belief amongst people about what happens to someone after they have killed themselves.

As for suicide being an act of atonement or a way to end the life of one who is totally at peace with himself, I can see the difference and I understand now what sets two individuals who have committed suicide apart is the mentality behind the intention of ending their lives.

Ganeshprasad
30 November 2009, 04:32 PM
Pranam Yajvan


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


I offer the following just for contemplation on this matter. How many were consumed by fire in the Mahābhārata by choice?

King dhṛtarāṣṭra (eldest son of vyāsa ) and his queen gāndhāri.
And what of madri , wife of king pāṇḍu. Joining her husband in the funeral pyre. Some call this act sāti i.e. ending, destruction - also known as 'oblation' - as 'oblations' are offered in fire. There are more who took to this choice, yet they do not come to mind.



Another one that comes to mind is Amba, who later was born as Srikhandi.

I must admit these were act of extreme tapas and in full knowledge.

Mharaj Vidur ji advised his brother to proceed to jungle and in due course of time they with the aid of Yoga Agni finished their life on earth. this i believe in no way be construed as suicide.

Jai Shree Krishna

rkpande
01 December 2009, 02:49 AM
Sati who jumped in fire??

is suicide predestined? literature on palmistry say abut the type of hands with suicidal tendencies.
does jotish predict suicide or type of death?

Eastern Mind
01 December 2009, 06:09 PM
Vanakkam Sunyata:

For the record, I agree totally with TTA on this.

Regarding the survivors, of the friends and family, does anyone offer a viewpoint on a dharmic philosophical stance? Certainly it would seem one should not feel guilt for another's actions.

Fasting to death in cases of terminal illness or awhen you are a burden to family and friends, in my view would be dharmic. In fact, I've written it in my living will. I think everyone should have one, by the way. Gosh, itf you don't have one, your family could choose to bury you.

Aum Namasivaya

kshama
02 December 2009, 01:31 PM
Namaste,

I was initially going to post this as part of the thread I started over in the Scriptures forum on being reborn (http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=35688#post35688), but I feel the issue of suicide too much of a topic in its own right to be included in with how one might normally be reborn after a natural death, or even in an accident/murder which would stem moreso from the actions of others in the latter case and maybe in circumstances beyond your control in the case of dying in a road accident.

I know this topic may be quite sensitive for some people, not least for me, as I am personally acquainted with someone who took their own life just last year. In fact, it was the reminder of this person's anniversary which induced me to go write something about this. It was quite a shock to me at the time, because I saw this person nearly everyday of the week. The fact that I have never spoken to her would seem to some like it should not have affected me so much, but that was precisely the reason why I felt so shaken about it. We ran in different crowds, but I sometimes wonder if maybe she would still be here today if I had spoken to her more often or had got to know her better. I know I have nothing real to regret, but I'm sometimes troubled by the "what if's" that come into my mind. At the time I prayed for a good rebirth, but now I'm looking back on it I find myself wondering where this person might be.

I have a few questions about what the view is of suicide from the Sanatana Dharma perspective. In Christianity suicide constitutes as very serious sin and I think it's one of the main reasons why the issue remains such a taboo within Western societies (I'm not sure if this is equally true over in the East?). In Catholicism, the belief is that such people will go to purgatory - a sort of limbo world where they get a second chance in getting into heaven. It seems like very few people are willing to talk about it openly - maybe to avoid the painful idea that the deceased will not be destined for heaven as the family would like to think? The way in which these things are handled over where I live (I'm not sure about the rest of the western world) is sometimes going on the ridiculous. Support and suicide prevention programmes for today's youth is underfunded and almost ignored sometimes. It seems to me that people like to adopt that "out of sight, out of mind" stance with suicide but with the number of cases of depression rising in the modern world, it's going to become an even bigger issue in the near future than it is now.

What is the general belief in Hinduism of people who engage in atmahatya? And I'm not talking about suicide bombers who have it mind that they are on their way to paradise, or people who have decided to end their lives because they have been battling a terminal illness for a long time and without much avail. While these are also cases of suicide, the real intention behind these acts cannot be classed as the same as a depressed individual seeking to end his life if he sees it as being not worth living. I mean people who hate themselves or are in such mental anguish that they think death would be better than to live a moment longer. An individual's bhava at the time of his taking his own life must really be one that is as bad as it can get. Accidental death and murders are indeed terrible for a soul - the mind must be in such a flux of emotions like confusion, bitterness or regret that they must leave this life behind. But suicide would entail a lot of loathing for oneself or complete hopelessness in the face of the world. What will happen to a person who thinks in this manner in his last few moments of life and who has committed a murder? Because surely this must be quite a big spiritual devolution for the soul.

OM Shanti

Namaskar sunyata07 Ji,

I am glad to know that you managed to write something soul-stirring about suicide. First of all, I am sorry for the loss of your acquaintance. In my opinion, life and death are predetermined. Nothing can be done by anyone to halt death even for a second.

In Hinduism, God created this world for a reason. God created us for a reason too. He created us to know ourselves. How? By adhering to good life practices and paying our debts of karma with acceptance and perseverence.

Though the death is predetermined in fate, it is wrong for us to commit suicide. Why? We wasted our present birth to realize God. What happens next? The soul of the suicider will suffer according to his/her karma balance book. It is said that the soul will undertake lower forms of life. So why do we need to suffer in lower forms of life in the next incarnation? Isn't it a form of stupidity? Stupidity might be harsh to be heard, but that's the word that I can think of now. I am sorry if my choice of words offended anyone.

I am glad to know that you care about others. Well if there are more caring persons in this world like you, the world will be a better place indeed. So if anyone detect something is wrong with a person you know, do check up their well-being, who knows, they might get better talking to you. Namaste.

yajvan
02 December 2009, 02:28 PM
hari oṁ
~~~~~

Namaste kshama,




Though the death is predetermined in fate...
Can you talk to us a bit about this predetermined POV? What is your opinion on this? How does it work? Do we have any 'pointers' from the śāstra-s regarding this matter?

Is predetermination a function of karma - that is, your 'fate' is based upon your choices and hence you are 'predetermined' to reap what actions you seed today, in a future time ( that time being the next minute or the next life).

I would be interested in your POV ( and others ) on this matter.

praṇām

kshama
02 December 2009, 03:06 PM
hari oṁ
~~~~~

Namaste kshama,


Can you talk to us a bit about this predetermined POV? What is your opinion on this? How does it work? Do we have any 'pointers' from the śāstra-s regarding this matter?

Is predetermination a function of karma - that is, your 'fate' is based upon your choices and hence you are 'predetermined' to reap what actions you seed today, in a future time ( that time being the next minute or the next life).

I would be interested in your POV ( and others ) on this matter.

praṇām

Namaste Yajvan Ji,

I can't point the exact lines from shastras. Many of what I learned regarding metaphysics and spirituality are by hearing and reading talks by renowned swamijis of India. I am sorry for the inconvinience. Perhaps knowledgeable members here can help us both here.

Karma, is often misunderstood. I may say it overrated in usage now. Why, karma is so complex and we know only the basics how karma operates. Generally, what we sow today, is what we would reap, if not in this life, the next life. Every action we do in this present life does contribute to the events that we have to face in our next birth.

That is why one must always do good in action, speech, and thoughts. People always forget that we are here now, to pay our karma. If we are in good position today, that is because our good deeds in the past. If we are in a bad position today, it is also caused by our bad deeds in this past. One may say, I did nothing wrong in this birth, why I am suffering then? Can they be certain they did nothing wrong in their previous birth or many births prior that?

In the same way, death operates. We are destined to face death at anytime God has fated us to face. So, we must use this present moment, to do many things that will benefit us if not in our future, in our next birth.

I hope I did manage to answer your questions up to your satisfaction. I am still a student when it comes to life, religion and spirituality. I gladly welcome anyone to add in anything missing if, if I overlooked the point. Namaste.

Eastern Mind
02 December 2009, 03:20 PM
Namaste kshama:

Yes to a certain degree, it was all determined long ago. But fate, as you describe it, I for one would not buy into even for a minute. Just as you claimed some don't understand karma, so too with fate, or destiny. If it is your fate, then why bother with anything?

"It was my fate to be poor." is simply a self-defeating thought.

My response would be that you should get off your whining sympathy chair and attempt to do something about it. We have free will. So we can avoid situations that are dangerous. Have you heard the saying, "That guy is tempting fate"? This is when he crosses a busy Indian highway because he's hungry for a rice and curry on the other side, but doesn't need to.

So death, from the big picture, the mountaintop perspective, the Advaitin perspective might be predetermined. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go jump off a building hoping to land on a soft cushion of hay any time soon.

Aum Namasivaya

kshama
02 December 2009, 03:39 PM
Namaste kshama:

Yes to a certain degree, it was all determined long ago. But fate, as you describe it, I for one would not buy into even for a minute. Just as you claimed some don't understand karma, so too with fate, or destiny. If it is your fate, then why bother with anything?

"It was my fate to be poor." is simply a self-defeating thought.

My response would be that you should get off your whining sympathy chair and attempt to do something about it. We have free will. So we can avoid situations that are dangerous. Have you heard the saying, "That guy is tempting fate"? This is when he crosses a busy Indian highway because he's hungry for a rice and curry on the other side, but doesn't need to.

So death, from the big picture, the mountaintop perspective, the Advaitin perspective might be predetermined. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go jump off a building hoping to land on a soft cushion of hay any time soon.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste Eastern Mind Ji,

Thank you for the feedback. I am always glad to read and see perspectives of others.

I wish to add in something. When conditions are bad, it is ok to try and find way to make life easier. If one is poor, he/she are free to look ways to have a stable life. But who determines their succcess? Themselves or God? If that is God's will, lo and behold, they will be rich.

What causes miseries in life? Desires. Desires to accumulate wealth, desire to have a joyful life, desires to have more than one should. Desires can motivate people to go up in ladder of life, but at the same time, it can make one fall down so low in life. So we must find balance in our desires.

In my opinion, this life is to seek enlightenment. One might not be liberated this birth, but he or she might have a better social position in their next life, all due to what they do in this life. So it is better, to be content with what we have now. One should always seek ways to make things better. I believe in the power of prayer. Do turn to God and pray in moments of despair. He knows best what to grant you. Namaste.

Eastern Mind
02 December 2009, 04:40 PM
Vanakkam kshama:

There is a story about the power of prayer that goes like this: A man prays to God a few times to win the lottery. It fails time and time again. Finally through some kind of divine communication God asks the man, "Why didn't you buy a ticket?"

So we have to help God out. We can't just sit back on our laurels and think God is going to do it all for us. Liberation's short cut is hard work, not God's intervention.

Don't get me wrong, I am a bhaktar as well. But we can't even have His grace at a temple if we don't go to the temple. I have met too many people in my life who have relied on God far too much. You'd thing God could come down and drive the car for them. Its a misconception, as is the Christian misconception that they can do anything as Jesus has saved them.

In my way of thinking, God can ease suffering or strengthen love, but it is not all up to Him.

The other point is that there are many well-behaved moral living atheists who do well as human beings on this planet with no belief in God at all.

Aum Namasivaya

kshama
02 December 2009, 05:29 PM
Vanakkam kshama:

There is a story about the power of prayer that goes like this: A man prays to God a few times to win the lottery. It fails time and time again. Finally through some kind of divine communication God asks the man, "Why didn't you buy a ticket?"

So we have to help God out. We can't just sit back on our laurels and think God is going to do it all for us. Liberation's short cut is hard work, not God's intervention.

Don't get me wrong, I am a bhaktar as well. But we can't even have His grace at a temple if we don't go to the temple. I have met too many people in my life who have relied on God far too much. You'd thing God could come down and drive the car for them. Its a misconception, as is the Christian misconception that they can do anything as Jesus has saved them.

In my way of thinking, God can ease suffering or strengthen love, but it is not all up to Him.

The other point is that there are many well-behaved moral living atheists who do well as human beings on this planet with no belief in God at all.

Aum Namasivaya

Vanakkam Eastern Mind Ji,

Thank you for your feedback. I am pleased to know you are a bhakta as well.

I agree with you that God helps people who help themselves. For me, failure or success are fruits of our karma. If we gain, it is good. If we lose,we should not despair, we should try again to succeed. Then also, it is up to God to give the fruits of our labour.

Our atheist brothers and sisters though, do not believe in God, they too are God created beings. They too accrue good and bad karma. We do not know for sure, what made them be an atheist in this birth, or what they did in previous births that enables them to lead a good life.

God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. But why God is silent to most people. God showers grace without an iota of partiality, but then, why can't we benefit much from His grace? This is because we are not perfect to receive the grace. How to perfect ourselves? We must follow the yoga prescribed in the Gita. Follow any that suits your temperament. If one perfects oneself, the greater the benefit one accrues. It is like this. Radio stations transmits the channels through certain wavelength. So we must tune our radio to that frequency. So when the frequency is not correct we hear blurr sounds. Similarly, God's grace can be put as the radio station's frequency, and the radio as ourself. So we must tunethe dial on the radio to the precise frequency to get the best sound.

I hope I have not gone beyond my limits explaining. I am sure you are a very experienced man. Everyone learns from their experience. Your points in your reply had been noted. Thank you for your input. May god bless you always.

Ganeshprasad
02 December 2009, 05:42 PM
Pranam Kshama ji and all


In my opinion, life and death are predetermined. Nothing can be done by anyone to halt death even for a second.



Death and birth if they are pre determined or not, I don’t know, may be we have a set time allotted as a result of our previous karma but I don’t think every thing is set in stone or else there is no value of free will, even suicide could be construed as predetermined if that was the case.

To a large extent we complete our life seeking our desires which is never extinguished , no sooner we full fill one another springs up, so the time ebbs by this vehicle becomes old, unable to carry the task and thus it longs for a new one. A bhajan sung by Mukesh comes to mind

Pankhida Ne Aa Pinjru Junu Junu Laage.

Or this one By Meerabai
Junu.n to thayu.n re devaL, juunu.n to thayu.n
maaro ha.nsalo naano ne devaL juunu.n to thayu.n

Some great personalities in the past have defied death, Sati Savitri, Markand Rishi, Kaushiki etc

According to the Markandeya Purana, there was once a sage named Mandasya who cursed a brahmana named Kaushika to die the next morning at sunrise. When Kaushiki, Kaushika’s wife, heard the news, she vowed that by the power of her chastity the sun would never rise. When the sun did not rise for many days, everyone started to become alarmed. Brahma then told the other devas to go to Anasuya and she could assist them to continue the sunrise by the force of her moral power. Anasuya then entreated Kaushiki to allow the sunrise to resume. Kaushiki then allowed the sunrise to take place, but her husband immediately expired because of the curse. Yet, Anasuya brought the husband back to life by the power of her own austerity and devotion to her husband.

What I am trying to say is with great determination and resolve one can move mountain and rewrite a script.

Suicide is a coward way of dealing with life which can never be ended and thus the suffering continues in some form or the other.

Jai Shree Krishna

yajvan
02 December 2009, 09:22 PM
hari oṁ
~~~~~

Namaste kshama,

Thank you for your balanced post and what you offer.
You mention,


I can't point the exact lines from shastras. Many of what I learned regarding metaphysics and spirituality are by hearing and reading talks by renowned swamijis of India. I am sorry for the inconvinience. Perhaps knowledgeable members here can help us both here....We are destined to face death at anytime God has fated us to face

Kṛṣṇa informs us (Bhāgavad gītā 2, 47th śloka ) that we have a claim or privilege to select our actions¹. This gives us a hint I think that we have the propensity to chose our course of action. This is hinted by Ganesprsad in his post above.

But that aside, let me ask you and our astute HDF members, lets say just for a moment that one's life is predestined. But towards what? To getting that job, or marrying a specific person? Is that fate or predestination? Is thatall the finality predestination has? That of a choice that comes to fruition?

We are here for a moment, even 100 years let alone 1,000 years is not even a fraction of a wink of an eye when taking of billions of years of existence, let alone eternity.

So, in a more meaningful setting what is the final predestined place one is to arrive at ? Fullness of Being ? ; mokṣa is a very attractive final destination IMHO .

So, one could deduce the following: You have choices for all your life (or lives if you wish to think on a more cosmic scale), yet in the end, mokṣa awaits, reuniting with the Divine awaits. That could the be ultimate predestination that is implied on a grand scale. That I could buy into. Kind of like a chess game, you know the end will occur and you are free to chose your moves , yet in the end, the King is captured.

What are your ( and others) thoughts on this POV?

praṇām

references
Bhāgavad gītā (chapter 2, 47th śloka)
karmaṇi evādhikāras te
mā phalesu kadācana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr
mā te saṅgo'stv akarmaṇi
This says, you certainly (eva) have ādhikāra (claim , right , privilege, control) of your (te or ti) karmaṇi (of your actions) , but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu) .

Just so there is no confusion - 'but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu)' clearly points that the individual cannot control the outcome. You do not have a choice on the level of success or failure that may result from that action that is initiated.

kshama
02 December 2009, 10:08 PM
hari oṁ
~~~~~

Namaste kshama,

Thank you for your balanced post and what you offer.
You mention,

Kṛṣṇa informs us (Bhāgavad gītā 2, 47th śloka ) that we have a claim or privilege to select our actions¹. This gives us a hint I think that we have the propensity to chose our course of action. This is hinted by Ganesprsad in his post above.

But that aside, let me ask you and our astute HDF members, lets say just for a moment that one's life is predestined. But towards what? To getting that job, or marrying a specific person? Is that fate or predestination? Is thatall the finality predestination has? That of a choice that comes to fruition?

We are here for a moment, even 100 years let alone 1,000 years is not even a fraction of a wink of an eye when taking of billions of years of existence, let alone eternity.

So, in a more meaningful setting what is the final predestined place one is to arrive at ? Fullness of Being ? ; mokṣa is a very attractive final destination IMHO .

So, one could deduce the following: You have choices for all your live (or lives if you wish to think on a more cosmic scale), yet in the end, mokṣa awaits, reuniting with the Divine awaits. That could the be ultimate predestination that is implied on a grand scale. That I could buy into. Kind of like a chess game, you know the end will occur and you are free to chose your moves , yet in the end, the King is captured.

What are your ( and others) thoughts on this POV?

praṇām

references
Bhāgavad gītā (chapter 2, 47th śloka)
karmaṇi evādhikāras te
mā phalesu kadācana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr
mā te saṅgo'stv akarmaṇi
This says, you certainly (eva) have ādhikāra (claim , right , privilege, control) of your (te or ti) karmaṇi (of your actions) , but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu) .

Just so there is no confusion - 'but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu)' clearly points that the individual cannot control the outcome. You do not have a choice on the level of success or failure that may result from that action that is initiated.


Namaste Yajvan Ji,

Thank you for the above post. It made me ponder a lot. Now I find it hard to put my thoughts into sentences, for the matters you have raised. I will get back to you as soon as possible. I need some time to ponder about it. Hope you won't mind. I welcome any members to channel their opinions on this matter.

And before I forget, pranams to you too, Ganeshprasad Ji.

atanu
03 December 2009, 01:36 AM
hari oṁ

So, one could deduce the following: You have choices for all your live (or lives if you wish to think on a more cosmic scale), yet in the end, mokṣa awaits, reuniting with the Divine awaits. That could the be ultimate predestination that is implied on a grand scale. That I could buy into. Kind of like a chess game, you know the end will occur and you are free to chose your moves , yet in the end, the King is captured.

What are your ( and others) thoughts on this POV?


Namaste yajvanji,

Integrating teachings from scriptures and more importantly the teaching of Shri Ramana Maharshi, the understanding here is as below.

It is a big misunderstanding that an embodied has full freedom of choice, since embodiment is caused upon by certain conditionalities and desires. Lord Death ensures adherence to the rules. There are however, two basic choices available:

Either one lives for 100 years performing karma as per nidhi.
Or, one sets up a sacrificial altar of 101 fold, including 100 years of possible life and one extra for the self.The destiny of the person of the first path is determined by the laws of nature automatically. If one does work for 100 years as per the law (nidhi) then one gets moksha. Else the ritam controls the distribution of the fruits of all accumulated work, spread over lives.

The second person, when the 101 fold sacrifice is full, attains moksha.

Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
03 December 2009, 12:48 PM
hari oṁ
~~~~~

Namaste atanu (et.al)

What you say is true atanu. We must scratch our heads and say, If we had 100% freedom of choice would ādhibautika duḥkha ( self-caused suffering) exist? Would suffering caused by others ( ādhidaivika duḥkha) be a choice one makes? We 'wish' it often to go away, yet it does not occur at the course and speed of our wishes or will power.

So , something less then 100% is in play , don't you think? I read (some years back) it's 1/3rd , a 1/3rd and 1/3rd.
One-third is this freedom of choice, the other 1/3rd is from vāsaṇa-s or saṃskāra¹ i.e. past impressions, and the remaining 1/3rd is social, environmental, cosmic (grāha + devatā + … + …. other). Now is it exactly one-third, for this I do not know, and have no conjecture on this matter.


Atanu, you were kind enough to bring up iṣtāpūrta¹ i.e.

Either one lives for 100 years performing karma as per nidhi.
Or, one sets up a sacrificial altar of 101 fold, including 100 years of possible life and one extra for the self.
The destiny of the person of the first path is determined by the laws of nature automatically. If one does work for 100 years as per the law (nidhi) then one gets moksha. Else the ritam controls the distribution of the fruits of all accumulated work, spread over lives. The second person, when the 101 fold sacrifice is full, attains moksha.
Can you be so kind as to take us deeper-and-wider ( better understanding, implications, etc) into this knowledge? Perhaps a new post may be in order?

dhanyavāda,


praṇām

words

saṃskāra - impressions on the mind of acts done in a former state of existence; the faculty of memory; mental impression or recollection
iṣṭāpūrta - 'filled up or stored up sacrificial rites ' ; the merit of sacred rites ; consider iṣṭa as ~personal piety~ + pūrta as works for the benefit of others

atanu
04 December 2009, 10:42 AM
hari oṁ
Namaste atanu (et.al)
---
So , something less then 100% is in play , don't you think? I read (some years back) it's 1/3rd , a 1/3rd and 1/3rd.
One-third is this freedom of choice, the other 1/3rd is from vāsaṇa-s or saṃskāra¹ i.e. past impressions, and the remaining 1/3rd is social, environmental, cosmic (grāha + devatā + … + …. other). Now is it exactly one-third, for this I do not know, and have no conjecture on this matter.


Namaste Yajvanji,

But 1/3rd for whom? I do not know whether Emerson will suit the occassion or not?

Fate

Ralph Waldo Emerson

DEEP in the man sits fast his fate
To mould his fortunes, mean or great:
Unknown to Cromwell as to me
Was Cromwell's measure or degree;
Unknown to him as to his horse,
If he than his groom be better or worse.
He works, plots, fights, in rude affairs,
With squires, lords, kings, his craft compares,
Till late he learned, through doubt and fear,
Broad England harbored not his peer:

Obeying time, the last to own
The Genius from its cloudy throne.
For the prevision is allied
Unto the thing so signified;
Or say, the foresight that awaits
Is the same Genius that creates.

Om Namah Shivaya

kshama
04 December 2009, 12:29 PM
hari oṁ
~~~~~

Namaste kshama,

Thank you for your balanced post and what you offer.
You mention,

Kṛṣṇa informs us (Bhāgavad gītā 2, 47th śloka ) that we have a claim or privilege to select our actions¹. This gives us a hint I think that we have the propensity to chose our course of action. This is hinted by Ganesprsad in his post above.

But that aside, let me ask you and our astute HDF members, lets say just for a moment that one's life is predestined. But towards what? To getting that job, or marrying a specific person? Is that fate or predestination? Is thatall the finality predestination has? That of a choice that comes to fruition?

We are here for a moment, even 100 years let alone 1,000 years is not even a fraction of a wink of an eye when taking of billions of years of existence, let alone eternity.

So, in a more meaningful setting what is the final predestined place one is to arrive at ? Fullness of Being ? ; mokṣa is a very attractive final destination IMHO .

So, one could deduce the following: You have choices for all your life (or lives if you wish to think on a more cosmic scale), yet in the end, mokṣa awaits, reuniting with the Divine awaits. That could the be ultimate predestination that is implied on a grand scale. That I could buy into. Kind of like a chess game, you know the end will occur and you are free to chose your moves , yet in the end, the King is captured.

What are your ( and others) thoughts on this POV?

praṇām

references
Bhāgavad gītā (chapter 2, 47th śloka)
karmaṇi evādhikāras te
mā phalesu kadācana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr
mā te saṅgo'stv akarmaṇi
This says, you certainly (eva) have ādhikāra (claim , right , privilege, control) of your (te or ti) karmaṇi (of your actions) , but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu) .

Just so there is no confusion - 'but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu)' clearly points that the individual cannot control the outcome. You do not have a choice on the level of success or failure that may result from that action that is initiated.

Namaste Yajvan Ji,

Sorry for the late reply. After much thought, contemplation, discussions with my spiritual acquaintances that I respect most, I finally manage to come up with answers to your questions.

From my discussions, some things are predestined, such as death, marriage, how will one pay karma in this birth etc.

But humans can change their karma by using their viveka, that is discering which is bad and which is good. So it paves way to a better living if not in the near future, in next birth.

My spiritualist friends say that God knows how we would act in each second of ourlives, but it He won't interfere, because, we shape our fate, through our actions at present. So God is only an observer. A friend give me an anology, let say, A know sun will rise tomorrow, but, A doesn't make the sun rise, it rises according to a specific time. So A though He knows sun will rise, he has nothing to do with the action sun rising. Similarly, God knows how we will act, but He is observing us minutely, not participating in the actions.

Another spiritual friend told me that, we shape our destiny, fate and when we have moksha by doing our karma in this birth, so good karma brings good future and subsequently, if one is good enough, all debts of karma are paid in this life there will be Moksha.

I thank Yajvan Ji, Ganesh Prasad Ji, and my spiritual friends, it is because of them, I stand corrected today.

I welcome anyone to give feedback on this matter. Thank you. May god bless us all.

yajvan
04 December 2009, 01:55 PM
hari oṁ
~~~~~

Namaste kshama



Sorry for the late reply. After much thought, contemplation, discussions with my spiritual acquaintances that I respect most, I finally manage to come up with answers to your questions.

From my discussions, some things are predestined, such as death, marriage, how will one pay karma in this birth etc.

But humans can change their karma by using their viveka, that is discering which is bad and which is good. So it paves way to a better living if not in the near future, in next birth.

Another spiritual friend told me that, we shape our destiny, fate and when we have moksha by doing our karma in this birth, so good karma brings good future and subsequently, if one is good enough, all debts of karma are paid in this life there will be Moksha.

I thank Yajvan Ji, Ganesh Prasad Ji, and my spiritual friends, it is because of them, I stand corrected today. .

I am of the opinion you are 99.9999% amongst friends here on HDF - hence no late replies, no late fees ... only longer times needed to ponder the knowledge. We are happy you took time to consider the conversation. You (IMHO) may find this happening often here.

One other item we need to talk about (perhaps not this instant) that will help round out the discussion is that of action, some like to call karma, and that is fine ( and accurate). Action is action - some is good, some not so good; I always would prefer ~good~ but that is relative to one's customs , traditions, life style, station in life, etc. I can give many examples.

That said, action is action - it is binding. Even if it is 'good' it brings another life; if 'bad' it brings another life, albeit the quality of it will be challenging.

What we need to discuss is 'skill in action' to stop the cycle of birth and rebirth. What is the challange ? The Bhāgavad gītā, chapter 3, 5th śloka assists us here:

na hi kaṣcit kṣaṇam api
jātu tiṣthaty akarmakṛt |
kāryate hy avasaḥ karma
sarvaḥ prakṛti-jair guṇaiḥ ||

This says,
no one indeed can exist for an instant without performing action;
for every one is helplessly driven to activity by the guna-s born of prakṛti (~nature~)

We see the connection in kriyā + prakṛti or the parent of the 3 guna-s , always in motion. Hence Kṛṣṇa is telling us that no one can exist even for an instant, a kṣaṇa , an instantaneous point of time , a twinkling of an eye i.e. a muhūrta or a moment , without action. This occurs throughout the universe - from sub-atomic particles to galaxies .

Hence we need some 'skill' some wisdom to function within these laws but to be rid of the binding influence of action. Such are some of the discussions here on HDF that occur from time to time.

This ( IMHO) is the value of HDF's offer. Yes, we talk of all different things here , yet we offer some profound insights for one to ponder.

I hope you will find these by poking around, deeper into the HDF posts , some pages back into the strings that are from earlier 2009, 2008 ( and further if you wish ).

praṇām


references
Actions
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=34990&postcount=38

selection/choice of actions : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=34618&postcount=8

kshama
04 December 2009, 02:45 PM
Namaskar Yajvan Ji,

Thank you for your insightful reply. I am learning each day about Hinduism as what I know equals to a drop of water in of the ocean Hinduism.

I wish to add, life is not fatalistic, we change the course of ourlives by the usage of freewill that we have.

Yes, I will scour around this forum and see the links you have mentioned. Thank you again.

atanu
04 December 2009, 10:10 PM
Namaste Yajvan Ji,
My spiritualist friends say that God knows how we would act in each second of ourlives, but it He won't interfere, ---
I welcome anyone to give feedback on this matter. Thank you. May god bless us all.

namaste kshama,

God is known at two levels. At knowledge level, God is Brahman. But at ignorance level, God is Ishwara-the controller.

BG
18.61 Eeshwarah sarvabhootaanaam hriddeshe’rjuna tishthati;
Bhraamayan sarvabhootaani yantraaroodhaani maayayaa.
18.61. The Lord dwells in the hearts of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings, by His illusive power, to revolve as if mounted on a machine!

18.62Tameva sharanam gaccha sarvabhaavena bhaarata;
Tatprasaadaatparaam shaantim sthaanam praapsyasi shaashwatam.
18.62. Fly unto Him for refuge with all thy being, O Arjuna! By His Grace thou shalt obtain supreme peace and the eternal abode.
---------------------

At knowledge level: :Brahman is All. There is no individual who is destined this way or that way. (Though it is hard to digest but some sadhakas will agree). And for some others, this may be an eye opener.

Om Namah Shivaya