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kumarrsin
28 November 2009, 12:35 AM
Namaste,

I have been reading the Gita regularly. Of late I was wondering what is the purpose of description of the vishwarupa in the Gita. All other chapters prescribes what a man should do in life to attain God Realisation. I fail to understand how this particular chapter is beneficial to man as far as the description of the vishwarupa goes.

Thanks and Regards

kd gupta
28 November 2009, 08:42 AM
To show that spirituality is always ahead to technology .

sambya
28 November 2009, 10:32 PM
vishwa rupa is the virat(huge) rupa of almighty lord . there r numeorus meanings explanations that can be derived out of this wonderful text . vishwarrupa gives as a faint indication as to the actual status of god in the cosmos . everything coming out from him and everything in the end is being devoured by him mercilessly -- the two aspects of the same truth . with unlimited hands eyes and legs he is omnipresent . its also establishes a link between god as the cause and maintainer of the universe and god as the closest person to ur heart . the link between abstraction and definite(krishna) . it is an insight into so many more aspects of god that exists .

kshama
02 December 2009, 11:24 AM
Blessed Members,

A nice question. Vishwarupa.... To me, it indicates whatever knowledge man has, all of that are useless, since it can't describe god. So how to know god is the essence of Gita.

Satyaban
02 December 2009, 07:09 PM
Namaste

I have read the Gita two maybe three times but I do not recall "Vishwarupa". I have a translation by Eknath Easwaran, do you think that makes a difference, I think he may be a Shaivite? I also looked in "Dancing with Siva" by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami and found no mention in the index or lexicon.

So, can someone refer me to the proper chapter?

Satyaban

kshama
02 December 2009, 07:45 PM
Namaste

I have read the Gita two maybe three times but I do not recall "Vishwarupa". I have a translation by Eknath Easwaran, do you think that makes a difference, I think he may be a Shaivite? I also looked in "Dancing with Siva" by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami and found no mention in the index or lexicon.

So, can someone refer me to the proper chapter?

Satyaban

Namaskar Satyaban,

If I am not mistaken, the whole episode of Vishwarupa darshan is narrated in chapter 11 of the Gita. Though I should refrain commenting on the matters of Sanskrit language (I do not know Sanskrit), I think Vishwarupa means universal form. It where Lord Krishna shows Arjuna the universal form of Him.

I hope learned members can shed some light on this matter.

kumarrsin
04 December 2009, 01:13 AM
Namaste,


Thanks for all the above replies to my post. However I would further like to know how I can derive maximum benefit by reading this particular chapter on Vishwarupa Darshana Yoga. Also, just by reading this chapter can I derive benefit as it is only a description of the cosmic form.


Thanks and Regards

Satyaban
05 December 2009, 03:06 AM
Namaskar Satyaban,

If I am not mistaken, the whole episode of Vishwarupa darshan is narrated in chapter 11 of the Gita. Though I should refrain commenting on the matters of Sanskrit language (I do not know Sanskrit), I think Vishwarupa means universal form. It where Lord Krishna shows Arjuna the universal form of Him.

I hope learned members can shed some light on this matter.


I believe you are correct. The story says Arjuna asked Krishna to show himself in all his glory.

Peace

amith vikram
05 December 2009, 03:23 AM
hi,
For someone who starts a spiritual journey,or who reads the gita for the first time or who has no knowledge of the ONE AND ONLY ONE matter,most of the chapters in the gita will be useless.I am stating this based on my own experience.
According to me,everyone who traces the right path of satya,will realise the vishwarupa at some point.In the gita,vishwarupa means:that who is krishna is indra and other gods.that who is the god is also the demon.that who is moving is also stationery.that who is living is also that which has no life.this ONE matter known by different names and identified by different specialities(gunas) is the only thing that there is.
Also,the truth(SAT) is infalliable(it will never perish) and the ASAT is not permanant.Krishna is that SAT.SAT alone is the truth,which should be known.

atanu
05 December 2009, 07:27 AM
hi,
For someone who starts a spiritual journey,or who reads the gita for the first time or who has no knowledge of the ONE AND ONLY ONE matter,most of the chapters in the gita will be useless.I am stating this based on my own experience.

Namaste Amith,

I whole heartedly agree with your experience, which is also a shruti in Rig Veda and in Upanishad. It is said that without knowing the imperishable, the Vedas and the scriptures are not of much use. In fact, scriptures create more confusion, if one attempts to understand the rik etc. from the perspective of a discretized fragmented vision. And then smriti?? Smriti readers do not accept that the Visvarupa (the world soul) is already depicted in Yajur Veda in Rudra Trishati etc. The universality is thus lost, as if Rudra is one and Krishna is another. And interpretations by non-hindus??? :)

Svet. U.


IV-8: Of what avail are the scriptures (vedas) to him who does not know that indestructible, highest Ethereal Being, in whom the gods and the Vedas reside ? Only those who know That are satisfied.
IV-9: The Lord of Maya projects the Vedas, sacrifices, spiritual practices, past and future, religious observances, all that the Vedas declare, and the whole world including ourselves. The other, again, is bound by Maya in this.


For those who know not Mahesvara (visvarupa), the scriptures become source of another kind of bondage.


Also,the truth(SAT) is infalliable(it will never perish) and the ASAT is not permanant. Krishna is that SAT. SAT alone is the truth,which should be known.


Actually, Asat never was, never is, and never can be. Since asat is Asat (Non-Existent). What other is perceived as different from Sat (Brahman/Atman) is merely mithya and not the Asat.

BG 2.16 Naasato vidyate bhaavo naabhaavo vidyate satah;

However, although Shri Krishna says: "I am that unborn", He also says "I am Sat and Asat".

7.25 Naaham prakaashah sarvasya yogamaayaasamaavritah;
Moodho’yam naabhijaanaati loko maamajamavyayam.

7.25. I am not manifest to all (as I am), being veiled by the Yoga Maya. This deluded world does not know Me, the unborn and imperishable.

9.19 Tapaamyahamaham varsham nigrihnaamyutsrijaami cha;
Amritam chaiva mrityushcha sadasacchaahamarjuna.

9.19. (As the sun) I give heat; I withhold and send forth the rain; I am immortality and also death, existence and non-existence, O Arjuna!

So, there is need to know the akshara Sat, stripped of asat. And that I understand and believe is depicted in the Rig Veda:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=32095&postcount=305

Om Namah Shivaya

Ganeshprasad
05 December 2009, 07:32 AM
Pranam


Namaste,


Thanks for all the above replies to my post. However I would further like to know how I can derive maximum benefit by reading this particular chapter on Vishwarupa Darshana Yoga. Also, just by reading this chapter can I derive benefit as it is only a description of the cosmic form.


Thanks and Regards

Yes there would be benefit in reading any chapter of Bhagvat Gita.

Glories or significant of chapter 11 vishwarup darshan yog we may see through Arjun’s eyes.

Like him we hear a lot of good powerful arguments and become in awe momentarily yet we are not fully convinced so we seek assurance. Arjun having accepted Krishna as supreme he wanted to see him in full glories, for that he needed divine vision and without Gods grace that was not possible.

And what did he see? Arjun was awe stuck seeing the lord in his glorious beautiful as well as fierce all devouring form, he was gladden as well as fearful not composed.

Only seeing him back in human like form he said thus;
arjuna uvaca
drstvedam manusam rupam
tava saumyam janardana
idanim asmi samvrttah
sa-cetah prakrtim gatah

When Arjuna thus saw Krsna in His original form, he said: Seeing this humanlike form, so very beautiful, my mind is now pacified and I am restored to my original nature.(11.51)

The lessons I learned from chapter 11,is to be convinced, to see his grace, to see his opulence and greatness but above all his love.

In the comfort of our home we are happy playing with father who is loving, caring and gentle, like Arjun we would also be perplexed if we hear that the same father could be a supreme judge who is dishing out judgement rewarding or punishing.

We would be inclined to see that father at work but we will soon long to see him at home.

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
05 December 2009, 08:30 AM
hi,
According to me,everyone who traces the right path of satya,will realise the vishwarupa at some point.



RV 8.096.12 Perform those rites of yours that Indra may accept them; praise him to whom praise belongs, worship him with your service; O priest, adorn thyself, grieve not (for poverty); let Indra hear your praise, may he speedily give much wealth.

8.096.13 The swift-moving Kr.s.n.a with ten thousand (demons) stood on the Am.s'umati_; by his might Indra caught him snorting (in the water); he, benevolent to man, smote his malicious (bands).

8.096.14 "I have seen the swift-moving (asura) lurking in an inaccessible place, in the depths of the river Am.s'umati_, (I have seen) Kr.s.n.a standing there as (the sun) in a cloud; I appeal to you, showerers; conquer him in battle". Though the Asura thinks he is concealing himself, he is seen as clearly by Indra as the sun is behind a cloud.

8.096.15 Then the swift-moving one (Krishna), shining forth assumed his own body by the Am.s'umati_, and Indra with Br.haspati as his ally smote the godless hosts as they drew near.

8.096.16 As soon as you were born, Indra, you were an enemy to those seven who had no enemy; you recovered the heavens and earth when concealed (in darkness); you cause joy to the mighty worlds.

Of course everyone will experience, since it is Lord Indra, the Mukhya prAna who is both the sustainer and desroyer of the seven that bind awareness (consciousness) within the limits of sensual perception called the BODY. The seven, by the power of their sensual perception cover up the truth, creating the darkness of Shushupti -- which is the fullness without boundary and which is the birth and the death of all. It is Sarvesvara.

Stripped of the covering agents, the dark shushupti is revealed as brightness of thousand suns, called Bhargo-Rudra in the Vedas. Beyond, tamasa is the Lord of tamasa who never slumbers.

Svet. U. 6.7
tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n
ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .
patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-
vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
05 December 2009, 10:51 AM
hari oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté amith vikram,


hi,
For someone who starts a spiritual journey,or who reads the gita for the first time or who has no knowledge of the ONE AND ONLY ONE matter,most of the chapters in the gita will be useless.I am stating this based on my own experience.


I see your point. It is like a child walking into a library with no guidance. Where does s/he begin? Which row to start in? What is best?

Yet there is another point of view too on this matter. Kṛṣṇa tells us ( Bhāgavad gītā, chapt 2, 46th śloka) :
to the enlightened brahmin all the veda-s are of no more
use then is a small well in a place flooded with water
on every side.

So , we have the full spectrum of possibilities for the individual; on one end, no light and in the dark, and on the other full of light. But what is common to both sides? And something that is useless becomes use-full, how does that occur?

Do you have any thoughts or POV on this matter?

praṇām

atanu
05 December 2009, 11:38 AM
hari oṁ
~~~~~
Namasté amith vikram,

I see your point. It is like a child walking into a library with no guidance. Where does s/he begin? Which row to start in? What is best?

Yet there is another point of view too on this matter. Kṛṣṇa tells us ( Bhāgavad gītā, chapt 2, 46th śloka) :
to the enlightened brahmin all the veda-s are of no more
use then is a small well in a place flooded with water
on every side.

praṇām

Pranam, :bowdown:

Guru Ramana says that in a lighted room a candle light is not required. A candle is also not required by a person who has not seen light and does not want to see. A candle is required by one who seeks light yet does not know how and where.

Om Namah Shivaya

TatTvamAsi
05 December 2009, 04:45 PM
Namaste,

Excellent explanations Atanu et. al.

The VishwarUpa darshana granted to Arjuna by Krishna signifies Advaita Vedanta for me. Perhaps it is a crude translation, but I feel that by showing the expanse of creation (all beings animate and otherwise) within that one reality is really the final "proof" of Advaita IMO.

Of course, Vaishnavas might be angry at my interpretation but I do not ask everyone to adopt it for it is merely my level of understanding for this chapter.

Namaskar.

amith vikram
05 December 2009, 08:55 PM
Namaste Amith,

I whole heartedly agree with your experience, which is also a shruti in Rig Veda and in Upanishad. It is said that without knowing the imperishable, the Vedas and the scriptures are not of much use. In fact, scriptures create more confusion, if one attempts to understand the rik etc. from the perspective of a discretized fragmented vision. And then smriti?? Smriti readers do not accept that the Visvarupa (the world soul) is already depicted in Yajur Veda in Rudra Trishati etc. The universality is thus lost, as if Rudra is one and Krishna is another. And interpretations by non-hindus??? :)

Svet. U.


IV-8: Of what avail are the scriptures (vedas) to him who does not know that indestructible, highest Ethereal Being, in whom the gods and the Vedas reside ? Only those who know That are satisfied.
IV-9: The Lord of Maya projects the Vedas, sacrifices, spiritual practices, past and future, religious observances, all that the Vedas declare, and the whole world including ourselves. The other, again, is bound by Maya in this.


For those who know not Mahesvara (visvarupa), the scriptures become source of another kind of bondage.




Actually, Asat never was, never is, and never can be. Since asat is Asat (Non-Existent). What other is perceived as different from Sat (Brahman/Atman) is merely mithya and not the Asat.

BG 2.16 Naasato vidyate bhaavo naabhaavo vidyate satah;

However, although Shri Krishna says: "I am that unborn", He also says "I am Sat and Asat".

7.25 Naaham prakaashah sarvasya yogamaayaasamaavritah;
Moodho’yam naabhijaanaati loko maamajamavyayam.

7.25. I am not manifest to all (as I am), being veiled by the Yoga Maya. This deluded world does not know Me, the unborn and imperishable.

9.19 Tapaamyahamaham varsham nigrihnaamyutsrijaami cha;
Amritam chaiva mrityushcha sadasacchaahamarjuna.

9.19. (As the sun) I give heat; I withhold and send forth the rain; I am immortality and also death, existence and non-existence, O Arjuna!

So, there is need to know the akshara Sat, stripped of asat. And that I understand and believe is depicted in the Rig Veda:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=32095&postcount=305

Om Namah Shivaya
hi atanu,
I didnt say we need to know the akshara sat!i only stated that,there are SAT and ASAT.agreed,ASAT was never there.but from an ignorant point of view(like me),we should first discriminate betwn sat and asat.
sat can never be known,because we all know there can be no sat until there is a knower.
my view was that,all the things which has form and gunas are but non-permanant and with impurities(ahankaara).yajnavalkya has stated in bri.up.that if someone tries to find that SAT,he will go on in an infinite loop.

amith vikram
05 December 2009, 09:05 PM
Of course everyone will experience, since it is Lord Indra, the Mukhya prAna who is both the sustainer and desroyer of the seven that bind awareness (consciousness) within the limits of sensual perception called the BODY. The seven, by the power of their sensual perception cover up the truth, creating the darkness of Shushupti -- which is the fullness without boundary and which is the birth and the death of all. It is Sarvesvara.

Stripped of the covering agents, the dark shushupti is revealed as brightness of thousand suns, called Bhargo-Rudra in the Vedas. Beyond, tamasa is the Lord of tamasa who never slumbers.

Svet. U. 6.7
tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n
ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .
patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-
vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

Om Namah Shivaya
MY IDEA OF VISHWARUP:
we know vishnu is identical with the brahman.i percieved vishnu as my bhagavan.but we know the same vishnu is also shiv shankar and brahma and the prajapati and the deva,asura,manav and all other animals which fly,which sprout,and also that which has no life.so basically i am vishnu.but the only flaw is that,'I' am not vishnu.amith-ahankaar=vishnu.but vishnu as satya narayan should be meditated upon,for it is the purest form of brahman.
i dont know much,please correct if i am wrong

amith vikram
05 December 2009, 09:11 PM
hari oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté amith vikram,



I see your point. It is like a child walking into a library with no guidance. Where does s/he begin? Which row to start in? What is best?

Yet there is another point of view too on this matter. Kṛṣṇa tells us ( Bhāgavad gītā, chapt 2, 46th śloka) :
to the enlightened brahmin all the veda-s are of no more
use then is a small well in a place flooded with water
on every side.

So , we have the full spectrum of possibilities for the individual; on one end, no light and in the dark, and on the other full of light. But what is common to both sides? And something that is useless becomes use-full, how does that occur?

Do you have any thoughts or POV on this matter?

praṇām
namaste yajvan,
you said it.i am not an enlightened brahmin.
all the dharm and karm stated in the vedas should be done without passion for results.only that is the real karm.as for now,the gita/scriptures are the guiding light to me.

atanu
05 December 2009, 10:06 PM
hi atanu,
I didnt say we need to know the akshara sat!i only stated that,there are SAT and ASAT.agreed,ASAT was never there.but from an ignorant point of view(like me),we should first discriminate betwn sat and asat.
sat can never be known,because we all know there can be no sat until there is a knower.
my view was that,all the things which has form and gunas are but non-permanant and with impurities(ahankaara).yajnavalkya has stated in bri.up.that if someone tries to find that SAT,he will go on in an infinite loop.

Namaste vikram,

You bring in valuable points. That 'Sat cannot be known' is itself a knowledge which must be known by various practices etc., starting with subheccha to know the truth, followed by discrimination. Lord Krishna indeed teaches that the Self within must be known. Brihadaraynaka teaches 'Neti-Neti'. Aitereya teaches "Who Am I?"

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
05 December 2009, 10:12 PM
MY IDEA OF VISHWARUP:
we know vishnu is identical with the brahman.-----so basically i am vishnu.but the only flaw is that,'I' am not vishnu.amith-ahankaar=vishnu.-----
i dont know much,please correct if i am wrong

Namaste amith,

You indeed know much. I have only one point. The way you apply "i am vishnu. but the only flaw is that,'I' am not vishnu.amith-ahankaar=vishnu", the same may apply to our (everyones) perception of vishnu (or shiva).

I hope, I am clear.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
05 December 2009, 10:19 PM
hi atanu,
I didnt say we need to know the akshara sat!i only stated that,there are SAT and ASAT.

Namaste amith,

Probably. But I wished to point out:

Svet. U.


IV-8: Of what avail are the scriptures (vedas) to him who does not know that indestructible, highest Ethereal Being, in whom the gods and the Vedas reside ? Only those who know That are satisfied.


IV-9: The Lord of Maya projects the Vedas, sacrifices, spiritual practices, past and future, religious observances, all that the Vedas declare, and the whole world including ourselves. The other, again, is bound by Maya in this.
--------------------


There is value in above two verses. The goal is to know the akshara. If scriptures do not bring this point unto activation, then the job remains unfinished. Of what avail is arguments over which one gets blood pressure and shouts down other fellow passengers, if not for Self knowing, eventually? If not for attaining Parama Shanti?


Om Namah Shivaya

amith vikram
05 December 2009, 11:13 PM
Namaste amith,

You indeed know much. I have only one point. The way you apply "i am vishnu. but the only flaw is that,'I' am not vishnu.amith-ahankaar=vishnu", the same may apply to our (everyones) perception of vishnu (or shiva).

I hope, I am clear.

Om Namah Shivaya
namaste atanu,
i wish to say this again:
"shivaaya vishnu rupaya,shiva rupaya vishnave.
shivashcha hridayam vishnuhu,vishnoshcha hridayam shivaha.
yeta shivamayo vishnuhu,evam vishnumaya shivaha.
yetaantaram na pashyaami,tathame svastirayushi"

let me be clear first.
they say the one matter,brahman is unborn.
but vishnu was definitely born.so vishnu is not brahman.but the vedas say that vishnu is unborn.the problem here is,to know vishnu.to know vishnu as the unborn.to know vishnu not only in the pitaambara or one holding divya astras or one who is married to lakshmi.to know vishnu as all pervading like he demonstrated in his vaamana avatar.

virat vishnu cant be percieved.only for the sake of upasana should a man think of vishnu with gyan that he is without form.brahma sutra suggests to apply the formless,boundless "nature" to imbibe during dhyana and drop everything which has form.
in that case shiv shankar can also be imbibed in dhyana.why, one can say a man next door is god if he has nothing to do with fruits of this world or the other.
i dont know why you persist on shiva every time i quote vishnu;like i ever said vishnu is greater than shiva.i dont adore anyone who says 'i am great,i am the lord'.i dont care if he is the lord of 3 worlds or brahman himself.well in that case,vishnu is not brahman.like yama says in kena.up. whatever men worship on earth is not brahman.

amith vikram
05 December 2009, 11:21 PM
Namaste amith,

Probably. But I wished to point out:

Svet. U.


IV-8: Of what avail are the scriptures (vedas) to him who does not know that indestructible, highest Ethereal Being, in whom the gods and the Vedas reside ? Only those who know That are satisfied.


IV-9: The Lord of Maya projects the Vedas, sacrifices, spiritual practices, past and future, religious observances, all that the Vedas declare, and the whole world including ourselves. The other, again, is bound by Maya in this.
--------------------


There is value in above two verses. The goal is to know the akshara. If scriptures do not bring this point unto activation, then the job remains unfinished. Of what avail is arguments over which one gets blood pressure and shouts down other fellow passengers, if not for Self knowing, eventually? If not for attaining Parama Shanti?



Om Namah Shivaya

namaste atanu,
my view is this:
i can never know about the sat.i can only merge with sat.
like you pointed out 'the goal is to know the akshara',
i assume we started our journey for the sake of that.
bri.up quotes: 'one who does not know brahman knows it.
one who knows brahman never knows it'

amith vikram
06 December 2009, 02:39 AM
Namaste vikram,

That 'Sat cannot be known' is itself a knowledge which must be known

Om Namah Shivaya
yeah thats exactly what i was trying to say.

atanu
06 December 2009, 11:35 PM
namaste atanu,
i wish to say this again:
"shivaaya vishnu rupaya,shiva rupaya vishnave.
shivashcha hridayam vishnuhu,vishnoshcha hridayam shivaha.
yeta shivamayo vishnuhu,evam vishnumaya shivaha.
yetaantaram na pashyaami,tathame svastirayushi"

------in that case shiv shankar can also be imbibed in dhyana.why, one can say a man next door is god if he has nothing to do with fruits of this world or the other.
i dont know why you persist on shiva every time i quote vishnu;like i ever said vishnu is greater than shiva.i dont adore anyone who says 'i am great,i am the lord'.i dont care if he is the lord of 3 worlds or brahman himself.well in that case,vishnu is not brahman.like yama says in kena.up. whatever men worship on earth is not brahman.

Namaste Amith,

If my writing has conveyed the impression as highlighted in blue fonts, I am at fault. I have experienced beyond doubt: "shivaaya vishnu rupaya, shiva rupaya vishnave -----. I fully agree with you.

My point was only to stress the knowledge of imperishable Pragnya Ghana, which is us. When it is Ghana (unparted) it is like tranquil water. But when the Pragnya is no more Ghana (broken by thoughts), the scriptures are comprehended as per superposition of thoughts. In this regard, i cited a verse which i find of great importamce, namely:


IV-8: Of what avail are the scriptures (vedas) to him who does not know that indestructible, highest Ethereal Being, in whom the gods and the Vedas reside ? Only those who know That are satisfied.

Else

IV-9: The Lord of Maya projects the Vedas, sacrifices, spiritual practices, past and future, religious observances, all that the Vedas declare, and the whole world including ourselves. The other, again, is bound by Maya in this.
----------------------

All this was not only to agree to your initial point (cited below) but to take it forward a bit more.


For someone who starts a spiritual journey,or who reads the gita for the first time or who has no knowledge of the ONE AND ONLY ONE matter,most of the chapters in the gita will be useless.I am stating this based on my own experience.

The goal is Parama Shanti (at least for me) and that is available only after knowing the nature of the indestructible, highest Ethereal Being.

Like the Upanishad says "There is no satisfaction in the limited----"

It is a corollary thereof that the highest indestructible cannot be known by remaining a second to it, since that is the very nature of the Universe and all beings -- from brahmA down to a blade of grass.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

devotee
07 December 2009, 01:38 AM
It is a corollary thereof that the highest indestructible cannot be known by remaining a second to it, since that is the very nature of the Universe and all beings -- from brahmA down to a blade of grass. [/COLOR]
[/COLOR]

Excellent Atanu ! It cannot be said in a better way in so few words !! :)

OM

Ganeshprasad
07 December 2009, 10:00 AM
Pranam Atanu and all



It is a corollary thereof that the highest indestructible cannot be known by remaining a second to it, since that is the very nature of the Universe and all beings -- from brahmA down to a blade of grass.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya


a lot has been said in relation to original question, there definitely is a lot to learn from this chapter for that there is no doubt. As to what we learn would depend on what colour glasses we are wearing and see the world (in this case the Vishvarup) in that light.

Some of the question that arises, in my mind, from what had been said thus far,
did he have darsan of the lord as an individual separate from him or merged in unity?

Arjun is definitely seeing the Vishvarup, he being afraid, he is bewildered, he is offering prayers and having conversation with the lord.

No where in this chapter Arjun has suggested that he is merged, as a matter of fact he sees multitude of Devas and demons offering prayers.

To whom would he seek the pardon if he was merged as one?

Therefore, O adorable Lord, I seek Your grace by bowing down and prostrating my body before You. Bear with me as a father to his son, as a friend to a friend, and as a husband to his wife, O Lord. (11.44)

Then the Lord confirms in verse 54 bhaktya alone would be eligible to see him in those form, which led Arjun to ask in chapter 12

arjuna uvaca
evam satata-yukta ye
bhaktas tvam paryupasate
ye capy aksaram avyaktam
tesam ke yoga-vittamah
Arjuna said: Those ever-steadfast devotees (or Bhaktas) who thus worship You (as the manifest or personal God), and those who worship the eternal unmanifest (the formless or impersonal) Brahman (by developing Jnana), which of these has the best knowledge of yoga? (12.01)

Jai Shree Krishna

amith vikram
07 December 2009, 10:13 AM
Namaste Amith,

If my writing has conveyed the impression as highlighted in blue fonts, I am at fault. I have experienced beyond doubt: "shivaaya vishnu rupaya, shiva rupaya vishnave -----. I fully agree with you.

My point was only to stress the knowledge of imperishable Pragnya Ghana, which is us. When it is Ghana (unparted) it is like tranquil water. But when the Pragnya is no more Ghana (broken by thoughts), the scriptures are comprehended as per superposition of thoughts. In this regard, i cited a verse which i find of great importamce, namely:


IV-8: Of what avail are the scriptures (vedas) to him who does not know that indestructible, highest Ethereal Being, in whom the gods and the Vedas reside ? Only those who know That are satisfied.

Else

IV-9: The Lord of Maya projects the Vedas, sacrifices, spiritual practices, past and future, religious observances, all that the Vedas declare, and the whole world including ourselves. The other, again, is bound by Maya in this.
----------------------

All this was not only to agree to your initial point (cited below) but to take it forward a bit more.



The goal is Parama Shanti (at least for me) and that is available only after knowing the nature of the indestructible, highest Ethereal Being.

Like the Upanishad says "There is no satisfaction in the limited----"

It is a corollary thereof that the highest indestructible cannot be known by remaining a second to it, since that is the very nature of the Universe and all beings -- from brahmA down to a blade of grass.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya
thats true,the goal is parama shanti.actually,i was trying to tell the same thing.but like you said,moving a bit forward,you have explained suffeciently.thanks.

atanu
07 December 2009, 10:35 AM
Pranam Atanu and all

a lot has been said in relation to original question, there definitely is a lot to learn from this chapter for that there is no doubt. As to what we learn would depend on what colour glasses we are wearing and see the world (in this case the Vishvarup) in that light.

Some of the question that arises, in my mind, from what had been said thus far,
did he have darsan of the lord as an individual separate from him or merged in unity?

Arjun is definitely seeing the Vishvarup, he being afraid, he is bewildered, he is offering prayers and having conversation with the lord.

No where in this chapter Arjun has suggested that he is merged, as a matter of fact he sees multitude of Devas and demons offering prayers.

To whom would he seek the pardon if he was merged as one?

Therefore, O adorable Lord, I seek Your grace by bowing down and prostrating my body before You. Bear with me as a father to his son, as a friend to a friend, and as a husband to his wife, O Lord. (11.44)

Then the Lord confirms in verse 54 bhaktya alone would be eligible to see him in those form, which led Arjun to ask in chapter 12

arjuna uvaca
evam satata-yukta ye
bhaktas tvam paryupasate
ye capy aksaram avyaktam
tesam ke yoga-vittamah
Arjuna said: Those ever-steadfast devotees (or Bhaktas) who thus worship You (as the manifest or personal God), and those who worship the eternal unmanifest (the formless or impersonal) Brahman (by developing Jnana), which of these has the best knowledge of yoga? (12.01)

Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Ganeshprasadji,

BG 12. 2. Those who, fixing their minds on Me, worship Me, ever steadfast and endowed with supreme faith, these are the best in Yoga in My opinion.
BG 12.5. Greater is their trouble whose minds are set on the Unmanifested; for the goal—the Unmanifested—is very difficult for the embodied to reach.

There is no doubt of this. Isha Upanishad also has the same teaching. There are steps in yoga. My Guru teaches that sadhaka should never apply advaita to Ishwara or Guru, till "I am this body" sense is not erased. Most of us, I believe, do take a mantra or a deity for dhyana. Brahma Sutra states that this is for developing concentration.



Section II

Topic-7: Vaisvanara
24. Vaisvanara (the Cosmic Person) is the supreme Lord, for though the (two) words (Self and Vaisvanara) denote many things, they are used specifically.
25. The form referred to in the Smriti is an indicatory mark (that Vaisvanara means the supreme Lord). Hence Vaisvanara is God.
26. If it be objected that Vaisvanara is not the supreme Self because of the word used as well as other factors, and because of residence inside, then we say: not so, because the instruction is to conceive of Brahman as such, because the specification is inapplicable to others and because they mention Him even as a person (Purusha).
27. For these very reasons (Vaisvanara is) neither the deity nor the element.
28. According to Jaimini, there is no contradiction even in case of direct meditation.
29. According to Asmarathya, it is from the point of view of manifestation (that God is referred to as spatially limited).
30. According to Badari (God is spoken of as spatially limited) on account of being meditated on.
31. According to Jaimini, the spatial limitation is (justifiable) because of the meditation based on superimposition; for this is shown (in another text).
32. And they (the followers of the Jabala branch) remember (ie., read of) this One (ie., God) in this place (ie., in between the head and the chin).


Yet again Shri Krishna does teach that the light of the lights (which surely holds no form) must be known. And Brahma Sutra says:


Section III

Topic-6: Worship with and without Symbols
15. Badarayana says that the superhuman being leads to Brahman only those who do not use symbols (in their meditation), since this twofold division involves no contradiction and one becomes what one resolves to be.
16. And the Upanishad reveals a speciality about the results (of meditations with symbols).

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
07 December 2009, 10:45 AM
Topic-6: Worship with and without Symbols
15. Badarayana says that the superhuman being leads to Brahman only those who do not use symbols (in their meditation), since this twofold division involves no contradiction and one becomes what one resolves to be.
16. And the Upanishad reveals a speciality about the results (of meditations with symbols).

For a change I cite the purport of Shri Ramanuja:

------ In the case of those, on the other hand, who rely on the symbols (in which they meditatively contemplate Brahman), beginning with name and terminating with prâna. ('He who meditates on name as Brahman,' Kh. Up. VII, 1 ff.), the meditation is not proved by texts of the two kinds previously mentioned to lead to Brahman; it rather is contaminated by an element not of the nature of intelligence, and hence--according to the principle that the result of a meditation is the same in nature as the meditation itself--the soul of the inferior devotee practising such meditation does not proceed by the path of light and does not reach Brahman.--That this distinction is declared by Scripture itself, ------

Om

atanu
07 December 2009, 11:01 AM
Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

The point you raised is important and nowhere else it is as simply and lucidly explained as in Isha U.


12. To pitch darkness they go who worship the Unmanifested. To a greater darkness than this go those who are devoted to the Manifested.
13. Different indeed, they say, is the result (attained) by the worship of the Manifested and different indeed, they say, is the result (attained) by the worship of the Unmanifested. Thus have we heard from the wise who had explained it to us.
14. He who knows both the Unmanifested and the manifested together, transcends death by the (worship of) the destructible and attains immortality by the (worship of ) the Unmanifested.

Ganeshprasad
07 December 2009, 04:49 PM
Pranam Atanu ji

This advaita and dwaita refuses to go away and why should it because simply put, it is part of the same coin.

Now this chapter 11 and what benefit one may derive from it, was the question.

However what Arjun saw, the divine darsan, what name shell we give ?

Surely it was not some thing formless(nirakar) un manifested was it?

I hate the idea that, the form of the Lord is only necessary up to a point, after moksa, like a child becomes uninterested in its toy and discard it!

Na, perish the thought.

Lord Krishna says:

The one who truly understands My transcendental birth and activities (of creation, maintenance, and dissolution), is not born again after leaving this body and attains My abode, O Arjuna. (4.09)

He further says all his forms are divine,

There is no end of My divine manifestations, O Arjuna. This is only a brief description by Me of the extent of My divine manifestations. (10.40)

Isha U. is very interesting, how many people understand it? I want pretend to, because I don’t, yet one thing is clear, one has to understand it in conjunction with both.
I do not discount either but my sadhna is Bhakti, well pretending most of the time, but I sure have faith that one day the truth will be revealed, why beat my self over it.

Tulsidas says
No other age can compare with the Kali age provided a man has faith (in its virtue); for in this age one can easily cross the ocean of transmigration simply by singing Sri Ram's holy praises.

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
07 December 2009, 06:33 PM
Pranam Atanu ji
This advaita and dwaita refuses to go away and why should it because simply put, it is part of the same coin.

However what Arjun saw, the divine darsan, what name shell we give ? Surely it was not some thing formless(nirakar) un manifested was it?

Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

This is not exactly advaita - dvaita conflict.


. There is no end of My divine manifestations, O ArjunaThis is only a brief description by Me of the extent of My divine manifestations.

(10.40)

The above in blue fonts is what I am trying to say. Pragnya is chintamani/kalpataru, just limitless. Rest is upto the lover. It is part of the same coin, yet a single form is not what the truth is. "He who sees me everywhere and sees all in me, he never becomes lost to me, nor do I become lost to him." (6.30). "Whatever form any devotee with faith wishes to worship, I make that faith of his steady." (7.21). "In whatever form, at any time, a devotee of mine may reflect on a particular thing with his intellect, concentrating the mind on me as possessed of infallible will, he gets that very form." (Udhava Gita, 10.26).

Regards
Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
07 December 2009, 06:40 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Ganeshprasad offers,


This advaita and dwaita refuses to go away and why should it because simply put, it is part of the same coin.
I do not have much to contribute here, as this string has matured over the last week or two. What I was thinking of is just a slightly different view on this matter. You know I am fond of offering a slightly different way of looking at things :) .

We know dvitīya is second; doubled or accompanied by , furnished with. It suggests there is me the adorer and the Adored. With advitīya. it's defined as without a second , sole, single. Then there only the adored, as I am that also.

I my mind I see dvitīya as ~equal in scope~ to advitīya. How so? With advitīya there is not 2; This says ( from this point of view ) I ( as a dvitīya oriented person ) only see 1 to adore not 2, - there is no 2. It is that simple in my mind.

Yet I must say that the path to advitīya always goes though dvitīya. How can it not? There is no-one I have met that does not reside in diversity, in more then two, the many, when they first begin on the
path (adhavan). Who here HDF, or elsewhere, does not begin as the perceiver, engages the organs of perception on the perceived ( the object of perception) ?


I know what I offer does not resolve the conversations that are in process, but thought it was worthy of your viewing to consider it.

praṇām

atanu
07 December 2009, 11:08 PM
Pranam Atanu ji
However what Arjun saw, the divine darsan, what name shell we give ?
Surely it was not some thing formless(nirakar) un manifested was it?
I hate the idea that, the form of the Lord is only necessary up to a point, after moksa, like a child becomes uninterested in its toy and discard it!
Na, perish the thought.


Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

Arjuna surely saw a form of kAla , which again is World Soul. And Arjuna was fearful. But see the verse below:

"He who sees me everywhere and sees all in me, he never becomes lost to me, nor do I become lost to him." (BG 6.30).

So, what is that form which can be seen in above fashion? All in One and One in All? What would be that form, seeing which the devotee never becomes lost -- not even for a second?

IMO, the following two verses provide the clue.

Mahanarayana U.


XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.]
XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without.
XIII-6: One should meditate upon the Supreme – the limitless, unchanging, all-knowing, cause of the happiness of the world, dwelling in the sea of one’s one heart, as the goal of all striving. The place for His meditation is the ether in the heart – the heart which is comparable to an inverted lotus bud.
----------------------

To me that form is Pragnya Ghana by which everything is known directly or by perception. To which we all return every night and return to this world refreshed. Which is Bliss, wherein the world disappears. Which is called Sarvesvara.

Doing manana on the third pada of the Self, explained in Mandukya Upanishad (below) and the Mahanarayana U. passage cited above, clarifies the faith further.

Mandukya U.

When one sleeps without yearning for any desires,
seeing no dreams, that is deep sleep.
The deep-sleep state unified in wisdom gathered,
consisting of bliss, enjoying bliss,
whose door is conscious wisdom, is the third.

This is the Lord of all (Sarvesvara); this is the omniscient;
this is the inner controller; this is the universal womb,
for this is the origin and end of beings (visvarupa kAla).
----------------------------------

Self, the Prabhu, though undiscernible, is available to every being, without break, as the avvyaya Pragnya. In whatever fashion it is meditated upon that it becomes, though it is formless and ghana (unbroken).

Om Namah Shivaya

kd gupta
08 December 2009, 10:05 AM
Pranam Atanu ji

This advaita and dwaita refuses to go away and why should it because simply put, it is part of the same coin.

Now this chapter 11 and what benefit one may derive from it, was the question.

However what Arjun saw, the divine darsan, what name shell we give ?

Surely it was not some thing formless(nirakar) un manifested was it?

I hate the idea that, the form of the Lord is only necessary up to a point, after moksa, like a child becomes uninterested in its toy and discard it!

Na, perish the thought.

Lord Krishna says:

The one who truly understands My transcendental birth and activities (of creation, maintenance, and dissolution), is not born again after leaving this body and attains My abode, O Arjuna. (4.09)

He further says all his forms are divine,

There is no end of My divine manifestations, O Arjuna. This is only a brief description by Me of the extent of My divine manifestations. (10.40)

Isha U. is very interesting, how many people understand it? I want pretend to, because I don’t, yet one thing is clear, one has to understand it in conjunction with both.
I do not discount either but my sadhna is Bhakti, well pretending most of the time, but I sure have faith that one day the truth will be revealed, why beat my self over it.

Tulsidas says
No other age can compare with the Kali age provided a man has faith (in its virtue); for in this age one can easily cross the ocean of transmigration simply by singing Sri Ram's holy praises.

Jai Shree Krishna

Namaste Ganesh pdji

Really I am too, fed up with this Advaita and Dvaita science . Suppose Aham brahmasmi is advaita , then Tat twamasi means there is second , so becomes dvaita . Now take the case when aham and twam die , still there is Treta..fourta and fifta and after millions die , there is still universe alive , so how does Brahma[n] come in picture ?

atanu
08 December 2009, 10:10 AM
---, so how does Brahma[n] come in picture ?

Namaste KDji,

That is a brilliant question, when inverted.

Om Namah Shivaya

SANT
08 December 2009, 10:19 AM
I want t0 ask a question about these verses.

http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifThe mystic who passes away from this world during the smoke, the night, the moonless fortnight, or in the six months when the sun passes to the south, or who reaches the moon planet, again comes back. Chapter 8, Verse 26. (http://www.asitis.com/8/26.html)
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifAccording to the Vedas, there are two ways of passing from this world--one in the light and one in darkness. When one passes in light, he does not come back; but when one passes in darkness, he returns.




how difficult is yoga and passing through the body through yog.Is this what is required in moksha?
just passing at a particualr time.

kd gupta
08 December 2009, 10:29 AM
Namaste Atanuji

How do you come to know that kd gupta is there , if he is not there , then also you come to know , so there are independent TWO , pl. explain ?:)

atanu
08 December 2009, 10:32 AM
I want t0 ask a question about these verses.

http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifThe mystic who passes away from this world during the smoke, the night, the moonless fortnight, or in the six months when the sun passes to the south, or who reaches the moon planet, again comes back. Chapter 8, Verse 26. (http://www.asitis.com/8/26.html)
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifAccording to the Vedas, there are two ways of passing from this world--one in the light and one in darkness. When one passes in light, he does not come back; but when one passes in darkness, he returns.

how difficult is yoga and passing through the body through yog.Is this what is required in moksha?
just passing at a particualr time.


Namaste Sant,

The answer has to be short now.

The Sun is Atma and nearer. Moon is Mind and farther away (though we conventionally know otherwise). But actually the real Atma is the nearest.

Nearer to oneself the goal is, more permanent the result. Maitraya Brahmaya U. describes Vishnu devotees who do not travel anywhere. Same is told in Brihadarayanaka of another path wherein, the prAna along with organs are absorbed here and now.

How difficult? Shiva teaches that it is as easy as rolling a stone from mountain top. Simply drop the ego and surrender it with Lord. But only Prabhu knows how hard that is..

Om Namah Shivaya

kd gupta
08 December 2009, 10:34 AM
I want t0 ask a question about these verses.

http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifThe mystic who passes away from this world during the smoke, the night, the moonless fortnight, or in the six months when the sun passes to the south, or who reaches the moon planet, again comes back. Chapter 8, Verse 26. (http://www.asitis.com/8/26.html)
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifAccording to the Vedas, there are two ways of passing from this world--one in the light and one in darkness. When one passes in light, he does not come back; but when one passes in darkness, he returns.




how difficult is yoga and passing through the body through yog.Is this what is required in moksha?
just passing at a particualr time.


O.K. I shall tell you , but let me know[ that ] when are you serious ?

SANT
08 December 2009, 10:38 AM
Please go ahead thank you.

Ganeshprasad
08 December 2009, 06:14 PM
Pranam Gupta ji


Namaste Ganesh pdji

Really I am too, fed up with this Advaita and Dvaita science .

Now, now there is no need for that, as long as there is no hate, it does no harm, persevere and only good will result.



Suppose Aham brahmasmi is advaita , then Tat twamasi means there is second , so becomes dvaita . Now take the case when aham and twam die , still there is Treta..fourta and fifta and after millions die ,
 
You and me both know I think, nothing dies, there is transformation only, what to speak of atma?

Wait till Atanu ji tell us that there is noting beyond the fourth, that is the most worthy of them all.



there is still universe alive , so how does Brahma[n] come in picture ?

What makes you think he left the picture, I guess we need that divine eyes, the ones Arjun got.
Now how do I qualify?

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
09 December 2009, 12:01 AM
Pranam Gupta ji

Wait till Atanu ji tell us that there is noting beyond the fourth, that is the most worthy of them all.

Jai Shree Krishna

Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

Whether there is anything beyond the Turyam or not can be known only by being the Turyam and then trying to see above, like this cartoon. :rolleyes:

Why the speculation? Now, I remind what is said of the third pada, the Shushupti pada:

----- this is the universal womb,
for this is the origin and end of beings -----

Why so much doubt? My Guru says that the individual, the ego or the soul, is very tricky and keeps bringing up doubts without end, for its false sustenance, though shruti is as clear as crystal clear water that the Shushupti pada is the beginning and end of all beings.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
09 December 2009, 07:25 AM
Namaste Atanuji

How do you come to know that kd gupta is there , if he is not there , then also you come to know , so there are independent TWO , pl. explain ?:)

Namaste Guptaji,

Sorry that I missed this.

Well, we must start from the shruti: There is no other knower but Him.
----------------------------

When you say "I see atanu", do you have an independent proof of a third person saying "i also see atanu"?

When you say "I see the sun", do you have an independent proof of a second person saying "I also see the sun"?


One can never prove, through an independent source, the seeing of anything. Since, the so-called independent validator of your seeing will also be seen by you only. So, you will only validate your seeing.

That does not mean that you are the Rudra-the sole Seer. It only means that we do not know the Seer.

Om Namah Shivaya