Manifestation as "Seed" in Brahman (??)

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste,

In Yoga VasiSTa, it is written that the idea that all of creation as a 'seed' in Brahman is a ridiculous thought and wrong.

The potential state of the universe (or multiverse actually) perennially exists in this seed and manifests when that initial memory (Brahma) arises; or so I thought. This is analogous to the seed of a tree where the potentiality of the full grown tree always exists in the seed and when it sprouts, the tree is 'created'.

VasiSTa states that since creation is non-different than Brahman (according to Advaita Vedanta), "the fundamental cause itself has to be seen as the very nature of the Supreme Being...There is no cause and effect relationship between the Supreme Being and the universe". (ch. 4, v.2,3)

What? Yoga VasiSTa is driving me nuts (or should I say I am driving myself nuts?). It claims the universe can be taken as 'real or unreal'!! o_O

What do you make of the above quote from YV?

Namaskar.

[sanjaya]

Do you know if there is a text of the Yoga VasiSTa online? I would be interested to read more of this chapter before I even attempt to understand this quote.

For what it's worth, modern cosmology tells us that the universe exists in its current state because of quantum fluctuations that were essentially expanded when the universe experienced rapid inflation in its first second of existence. In this way, microscopic, random quantum effects had a very noticable effect on the real world. This, I suppose, might explain how God can create a universe without the use of any cause and effect relationship. But again, I don't claim to have a very good understanding of this text.

[atanu]

Do you know if there is a text of the Yoga VasiSTa online? I would be interested to read more of this chapter before I even attempt to understand this quote.

For what it's worth, modern cosmology tells us that the universe exists in its current state because of quantum fluctuations that were essentially expanded when the universe experienced rapid inflation in its first second of existence. In this way, microscopic, random quantum effects had a very noticable effect on the real world. This, I suppose, might explain how God can create a universe without the use of any cause and effect relationship. But again, I don't claim to have a very good understanding of this text.

namaste Sanjaya.

A link was provided by Znanna sometime back in a thread.

Om

[atanu]

Namaste,

In Yoga VasiSTa, it is written that the idea that all of creation as a 'seed' in Brahman is a ridiculous thought and wrong.

The potential state of the universe (or multiverse actually) perennially exists in this seed and manifests when that initial memory (Brahma) arises; or so I thought. This is analogous to the seed of a tree where the potentiality of the full grown tree always exists in the seed and when it sprouts, the tree is 'created'.

VasiSTa states that since creation is non-different than Brahman (according to Advaita Vedanta), "the fundamental cause itself has to be seen as the very nature of the Supreme Being...There is no cause and effect relationship between the Supreme Being and the universe". (ch. 4, v.2,3)

What? Yoga VasiSTa is driving me nuts (or should I say I am driving myself nuts?). It claims the universe can be taken as 'real or unreal'!! o_O

What do you make of the above quote from YV?

Namaskar.

Namaste TTA,

Turiya-Self Brahman has no seed. Seed is planted in Pragnya Ghana-Shushupti. The seeds sprout as subtle light forms and names in Dream-Hirayangarbha and as less subtle names and forms in waking-agnivaisvanaro.

The folowing is fundamental:

There is no cause and effect relationship between the Supreme Being and the universe". (ch. 4, v.2,3).

An example of Kaktaliya is repeated several times in Yoga Vasista to clarify the idea.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Namaste,

What? Yoga VasiSTa is driving me nuts (or should I say I am driving myself nuts?). It claims the universe can be taken as 'real or unreal'!! o_O

What do you make of the above quote from YV?

Namaskar.

Mandukya Upanishad also teaches the same. The akshara may by seen as one indivisible Om or it can be seen as three states of A, U, and M. It is a choice for the jnanis but Varuna's noose for the ignorant.

Om

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté


There is no cause and effect relationship between the Supreme Being and the universe". (ch. 4, v.2,3).

An example of Kaktaliya is repeated several times in Yoga Vasista to clarify the idea. Om Namah Shivaya

What is this kāka atanu is offering?

In the Yoga Vāsiṣṭa¹ it talks of kākatālīya¹ on many occasions. That kākatālīya is the story of the crow and the palm tree. It goes like this:
A crow alights (lands) on the top of a coconut palm tree. Upon its touch-down at the top, at that very moment, a ripe coconut detaches from its branch and falls to the ground. Two mutually exclusive events ( ~unrelated~) occur. An observer views this event in the same space and time and sees a relationship, yet in truth there was none. That is both events were independent of each other.

praṇām


words

Vāsiṣṭa ( also written vāśiṣṭha) means owning or belong ing to the sage vasiṣṭha
kākatālīya काकतालीय is kāka ( a crow) + tālī ( a tree) +ya (joining) : after the manner of the crow and the palm-fruit

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste Sanjaya,

I am not aware of an online version of Yoga VasiSTa but I'm sure Google Books will have it in the near future.

I picked up an English translation at the local Barnes & Noble a while ago for about $45. I highly recommend purchasing it as it is supposed to represent the pinnacle of Advaita philosophy.

There have been several occasions, while reading YV, where I've felt the total insignificance of life, society, and existence as a whole. It has brought me to tears on a few but I feel that in order to function "normally" in society, it is best to 'ignore' some of these teachings contained within YV. It is stated somewhere that Yoga VasiSTa is NOT recommended for people just learning Vedanta and is only for the experienced and mature mind. Perhaps that is why I felt the despondency I did because I have not had the opportunity to really delve in and study the Vedas in depth; only a few Upanishads and verses here and there.

By the way, are you by any chance in the field of cosmology or astronomy? Astronomy, and Physics in particular, are what originally peeked my interest in Vedanta. It was like a flower that blossomed when I read certain Upanishads that coincide (or should I say have foretold) with what science states regarding the nature of reality!

Namaskar.


Do you know if there is a text of the Yoga VasiSTa online? I would be interested to read more of this chapter before I even attempt to understand this quote.

For what it's worth, modern cosmology tells us that the universe exists in its current state because of quantum fluctuations that were essentially expanded when the universe experienced rapid inflation in its first second of existence. In this way, microscopic, random quantum effects had a very noticable effect on the real world. This, I suppose, might explain how God can create a universe without the use of any cause and effect relationship. But again, I don't claim to have a very good understanding of this text.

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste Atanu,

This concept of NO CAUSE is really confusing me.

I always thought that "creation" was an impulse by Brahman itself; like the first "desire" that brought forth this manifestation. (?) Even in YV, it states that Brahma (Creator) is the first memory from which other thoughts and memories arise thereby giving rise to what we call 'creation' and the universe. Saying there is "NO CAUSE" means that Brahma himself is mithya! When we transcend the 7 lokas I thought we reside in Brahma-loka which is not destroyed in the maha-pralaya (great cosmic dissolution)?

How can this "infinite consciousness" (as VasiSTa calls it) be "reflected" to form creation when there is no reflection to begin with (cause)?

Namaskar.


Namaste TTA,

Turiya-Self Brahman has no seed. Seed is planted in Pragnya Ghana-Shushupti. The seeds sprout as subtle light forms and names in Dream-Hirayangarbha and as less subtle names and forms in waking-agnivaisvanaro.

The folowing is fundamental:

There is no cause and effect relationship between the Supreme Being and the universe". (ch. 4, v.2,3).

An example of Kaktaliya is repeated several times in Yoga Vasista to clarify the idea.

Om Namah Shivaya

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste Yajvan,

Thanks for the explanation of the kAkatAlIya.

One gripe with that analogy VasiSTa uses is, how can there NOT be a relationship between the two? The weight of the bird is the final step required for the coconut to unhinge and fall isn't it?

Perhaps they are unrelated but the probability of them being connected is too strong IMO. Maybe that is why MAYA is so powerful and we cannot perceive the Truth easily! :)

What are your thoughts on this "no cause" business? It is really swirling in my brain like a marble in a glass bowl. LOL..

Namaskar.


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté



What is this kāka atanu is offering?

In the Yoga Vāsiṣṭa¹ it talks of kākatālīya¹ on many occasions. That kākatālīya is the story of the crow and the palm tree. It goes like this:
A crow alights (lands) on the top of a coconut palm tree. Upon its touch-down at the top, at that very moment, a ripe coconut detaches from its branch and falls to the ground. Two mutually exclusive events ( ~unrelated~) occur. An observer views this event in the same space and time and sees a relationship, yet in truth there was none. That is both events were independent of each other.

praṇām


words

Vāsiṣṭa ( also written vāśiṣṭha) means owning or belong ing to the sage vasiṣṭha
kākatālīya काकतालीय is kāka ( a crow) + tālī ( a tree) +ya (joining) : after the manner of the crow and the palm-fruit

[Ekanta]

Hi... I found this a bit useful myself:

Brahma sutra, chapter 2, section 1, topic 11: need of motive
32. (Brahman is) not the cause, owing to the need of some motive (for creation).
33. But (creation for Brahman is) a mere pastime like what is seen in the world.
(Sivananda translation)

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté TTA,


Namaste Yajvan,

One gripe with that analogy VasiSTa uses is, how can there NOT be a relationship between the two? The weight of the bird is the final step required for the coconut to unhinge and fall isn't it?

What are your thoughts on this "no cause" business? It is really swirling in my brain like a marble in a glass bowl. LOL.

I see your point. Let me offer a few ideas. These ideas are not to convince, but to add a perspective for one to think through the concept. This is not to suggest I am usurping Vāsiṣṭa-ji or know his mind.

A clinical view - meaning dispassionately analytical, unvarnished.
In the rules of probability there is the notion of correlation and causation. An event , say A occurs and event B occurs. Over time ( the sample size has to be more then 1) a pattern arises. Some times event B occurs after A happens , sometimes not. What is measured is the correlation. The probability that A has something to do with B, this is the correlation. Yet correlation does not prove causation i.e. cause and effect.

So, what you may perceive with kākatālīya is a high correlation. What Vāsiṣṭa-ji is saying there is no cause-and-effect and he uses this simple kākatālīya approach.

Same view, less critical
It just so happened that from the view point of the observer when the crow landed on the palm tree a coconut was dislodged. What could of happened?
The crow landed on the very top of the tree, not even close to the coconut - no forces were applied directly on the coconut itself, yet it was dislodged. The coconut was just 'ripe', or a gust of wind was enough to dislodge the coconut . Perhaps that is why the crow landed on the palm tree , it was getting too windy to fly. See my point?

More correlation ?
So, lets go for more correlation. Every time a crow lands on a tree it is due the high winds ( I am making this up, so bear with me for a moment) a coconut is dislodged. There is a indirect correlation that occurs.

Why , because it is the wind that correlates with the dislodging, not the crow. But here is the point to be made. For the observer, the only thing he sees is the coconut falling when a crow alights on the tree. At his level of altitude, he does not get the same wind-speed as the top of the coconut tree. Not even a thought of this occurs. So for him , it is cause-and-effect. The correlation is at 100% perfect fit. Yet the fact is, it is false. This is Vāsiṣṭa-ji 's point of consideration - all that you see just may not be true.

Hope this helps… happy to go deeper and wider if you wish.

praṇām

[atanu]

Namaste TTA and Sanjaya,

The Yoga Vasista link is: http://groups.google.com/group/yoga-vasishtha?hl=en
----------------

Regarding kAktAliya: YV breaks the hardened mould of rational mind permanently similar as drugs do, albeit temporarily. There is no weight in the crow just as there is no massive solid mountain. These are sensual perceptions hardened into reality.

For example, if food goes below tongue, it has no taste. If we did not have the sensation of touch in the skin, we would be everywhere. It is the sons of Rudra (the sensual organs and the karmic organs) that have created this solid world called reality.

YV breaks the hardened mould clean. Vasista muni asks rAma, how a subtle thought moves a gross body? What is the contact point? rAma is convinced that whatever is solid to the senses is actually non-bony -- made up of sensations and names given to those sensations.

kAk Bhusunda talks of Universes made of different consciousness levels. Universe which has no time due to absence of sun. Or the Universe which has different direction sense, since the arrangement of the stars are different. Vasista Muni shows universes where the rAma were in different stages themselves.

No science fiction can be better than YV. But YV is rooted in consciousness as the root and the truth, unlike science fictions, which are mere imaginations.

A crow has no weight or reality except that it is a form and name of consciousness alone. The events happen and then we rationalise. Yoga Vasista teaches that the reality/truth is prior to reasons and the reasons are mere sensual rationalisation. Another kAktAliya is 'flower blooming in spring'. That two events have occured nearly together in time does not mean (in truth) that one is the cause for the other. But for the senses and the rational mind based on the sensual perceptions, the interpretation is the only truth. YV breaks this pattern.

These are all rational associations made by the Seer/Thinker. The consciousness being ONE, the meanings and rationalisations are nearly the same for most common folks but not for the yogis, who see night when common folks see day and vice-a-versa.

Wish you best TTA. Enjoy.

Om Namah Shivaya

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste Yajvan & Atanu,

Yes, I understand kAkatAliyA better now.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Regarding YV, I will have to do some more reading before I can understand.

I shall be back with more questions; of that I am sure.

Namaskar.


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté TTA,



I see your point. Let me offer a few ideas. These ideas are not to convince, but to add a perspective for one to think through the concept. This is not to suggest I am usurping Vāsiṣṭa-ji or know his mind.

A clinical view - meaning dispassionately analytical, unvarnished.
In the rules of probability there is the notion of correlation and causation. An event , say A occurs and event B occurs. Over time ( the sample size has to be more then 1) a pattern arises. Some times event B occurs after A happens , sometimes not. What is measured is the correlation. The probability that A has something to do with B, this is the correlation. Yet correlation does not prove causation i.e. cause and effect.

So, what you may perceive with kākatālīya is a high correlation. What Vāsiṣṭa-ji is saying there is no cause-and-effect and he uses this simple kākatālīya approach.

Same view, less critical
It just so happened that from the view point of the observer when the crow landed on the palm tree a coconut was dislodged. What could of happened?
The crow landed on the very top of the tree, not even close to the coconut - no forces were applied directly on the coconut itself, yet it was dislodged. The coconut was just 'ripe', or a gust of wind was enough to dislodge the coconut . Perhaps that is why the crow landed on the palm tree , it was getting too windy to fly. See my point?

More correlation ?
So, lets go for more correlation. Every time a crow lands on a tree it is due the high winds ( I am making this up, so bear with me for a moment) a coconut is dislodged. There is a indirect correlation that occurs.

Why , because it is the wind that correlates with the dislodging, not the crow. But here is the point to be made. For the observer, the only thing he sees is the coconut falling when a crow alights on the tree. At his level of altitude, he does not get the same wind-speed as the top of the coconut tree. Not even a thought of this occurs. So for him , it is cause-and-effect. The correlation is at 100% perfect fit. Yet the fact is, it is false. This is Vāsiṣṭa-ji 's point of consideration - all that you see just may not be true.

Hope this helps… happy to go deeper and wider if you wish.

praṇām