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kshama
05 December 2009, 03:07 PM
Namaskar Blessed Members of the Forum,

I have been thinking about this for such a long time. How to makes Hindus all over the world, regarless their sampradaya stand united?

In my humble opinion, God created us for a reason. Our sole aim in this world is to reach Him, by whatever paths of yoga we take or by our bhakti through various sampradayas that are avail.

I find it disheartening sometimes when fellow Hindus argue with that too another fellow Hindu. Yes, I am all for academic discussions, discussions for gaining knowledge or understanding, but what saddens me, is when the discussions are full of intolerance, holier-than-thou attitude and hatred. All these will give a bad impression to non-Hindus and to the world at large about Hinduism and its people.

Does anyone know how to cultivate unity among Hindus? I am sure there should be a way, but due to my lack of wisdom, I cannot come up with any. Can anyone give your thoughts. Thank you. Namaste.

Eastern Mind
05 December 2009, 04:03 PM
kshama:

It's close to my heart as well. You are not the first. My own Guru had Hindu Solidarity (see later explanation) as one of two goals within his entire organisation. To that end, he started Hinduism Today, the monthly magazine. Still you see occasionally letters to the editor that lambaste the editors for being Saiva slanted, or others complain why such and such temple or philosophy isn't alloted more pages of print.
Yet, overwhelmingly, the paper gets a wonderful respopnse from all the sects.
Hindu Solidarity is defined as a unity in diversioty, sort of a vow to work together under one banner, not to amalgamate the sects, but to admire and promote the similarities without any criticism at all. Its tough, even on a personal level, but necessary as food for the physical body.

Aum Namasivaya

RamaRaksha
06 December 2009, 07:37 AM
Good idea and obviously very difficult. Hinduism allows freedom of thought, ours is a Teacher faith, a Teacher encourages free flow of thought, discusss an issue from various viewpoints - it's difficult for everyone to agree on one issue.

Just for example I always use the Female term for God, and i don't believe reaching God is my goal in life.

But what will get us united though would be if we can make Hindus more proud of their great faith. A recent member wrote that her sister became an atheist because of the actions of some Hindus - i wonder if she applies the same yardstick towards other religions?

Most Hindus are unaware of the teachings of this great faith. As I posted, this is a Teacher faith. No one is condemned for leaving this religion, unlike some other religions that would immediately condemn you to hell. I describe myself as an Atheist Hindu and to my knowledge except for Buddhism, I don't think there is any other faith that welcomes people like myself.

The British did not teach Democracy to India, if so, how come muslim pakistan seems to have so much trouble with it? Our faith taught us Democracy!

Every Hindu God is pictured with an animal. Inspite of a huge population and small land area, while most other countries have decimated their wild animal populations, India still leaves space for its animals and not small ones either - animals like Elephant, Tiger, Lion, Giraffe, Rhino- need lots of space. That is because we are Hindu.

In this time of global warming, the majority of Hindus remain vegetarians - living in harmony with nature. Again thanks to our faith.

devotee
06 December 2009, 08:55 PM
Namaste Kshama,

Your noble ideas are most welcome. :)

Actually, the "core" (born Indian Hindus) of the Hindu society is not divided in sects/sampradayas as it is felt in foreign lands (i.e. outside India) or on internet. There are two classes here. One class represents the common Hindu who worships various deities observes different rituals but believes in One-ness of all forms of God & also believes in formless God equally. Then there are Saints/Monks who are "normally" not householders & who have have joined some sect taking a Guru from that sect. Now, though the underlying principals remain the same for all Hindus, the differences of opinions are there. It is not that they deny other sects do anything against the scriptures i.e. the Vedas but they for obvious reasons are more oriented towards their tailor-made philosophies, rituals & doctrines. Actually, what I have noticed that this is more because Saints belonging to any one Sampradaya don't have much spare time to study & understand the other Sampradaya correctly & as deeply as is required because they have their hands already full with their daily routine on their own path.

So, the differences that we see are superficial. It is really not there. I think it would be difficult for Hindus born & brought up in foreign lands (like our friend EM here) to believe this but believe me, this is true. If you get a chance to stay in India with any of your Hindu friends, you would be able to notice yourself that your friend worships all forms of God with equal reverence. In fact, most likely you will find that for him Jesus too is another form of God.

This virtual world, the Internet, doesn't represent the Hindu society & nor the sectarian (if they so represent, I am not sure) Hindu organisations in the west. There is major difference between Hinduism & Abrahimic religions. In Abrahimic religions, the religion is interpreted, conserved & propagated by the
religious institutions. The Hinduism is not dependent on any such institution for its sustenance in its form though organisations do help. The core idea of one-ness of various forms of God etc. is in the heart of every born Hindu ... passed on from one generation to the other by parents to their children. The Unity of Hinduism lies in thinking of those common Hindus.

OM

Eastern Mind
06 December 2009, 09:55 PM
So, the differences that we see are superficial. It is really not there. I think it would be difficult for Hindus born & brought up in foreign lands (like our friend EM here) to believe this but believe me, this is true. If you get a chance to stay in India with any of your Hindu friends, you would be able to notice yourself that your friend worships all forms of God with equal reverence. In fact, most likely you will find that for him Jesus too is another form of God.


Devotee: Out of curiousity, I am wondering how well traveled you are, and in which part of India you reside. There are over a billion people there, and I still am not convinced. I wonder what other people here who are from India think. My only visit, as you know was to TN in the south. Next time we plan to go to Varanasi and perhaps Haridwar as well. No finalised plans yet. But in Tamil Nadu, I did meet brother Saivas who were Saiva only, and knew it. They were householders as well. There were Murugan bhaktars who went only to Murugan temples. I have also met those who thought 'vanakkam' was some sort of insult to "Namaskaram". That one I didn't understand. I honestly agree that the common Hindu wouldn't care, but whgether or not that would have him worshipping all Gods is another matter. As you know, some Gods are quite regional. I don't recall seeing many Kali temples in the South, and I know that Murugan is unheard of in most of the North. But to claim there is little real sectarian views, I still believe is naive. This is a belief of one sampradaya in particular. It is too close to 'radical universalism' for me. Google Dr. Frank Morales and his book for that.) Many people I suspect wish not to argue the point, (Me being one of them.) so they just agree and get on their merry way. Certainly many Hindus wouldn't thionk of putting Christ on their shrine, as you claim. I wonder what TTA's view would be on that. (Actually I have a pretty good idea, as do you.)

Aum Namasivaya

satay
06 December 2009, 10:47 PM
Namaskar,

Actually, I have to agree with devotee on this. The common hindu prays to many forms of God. In my opinion, common hindu in India today couldn't care less about the philosophical systems. The common hindu doesn't seem to have any sectarian views and is happily praying to all forms of God and eating parsadam.

However, in the north some forms e.g. Murugan don't seem to be common. E.g. I had not idea what or who murugan is until only a few years back when I first saw a statue in our loca temple here in Canada. Murugan wasn't part of my upbringing. In the North, people pray to ram, krishn, shiv, durga, kali and lakshami. Any other forms in the North are not so common in my opinion.

The common hindu has no time to learn and argue about the different philosophies.

My 2 cents.

devotee
06 December 2009, 11:05 PM
Namaste EM,

I was sort of expecting a post from you & it is there ! :)


Out of curiousity, I am wondering how well traveled you are, and in which part of India you reside.

I was born & brought up in central eastern part of India. However, due to my nature of job, I keep shifting from one part of India to the other quite frequently. In fact, I have lived & stayed in Eastern part of India, Northeastern part of India, Western part of India & central India, extreme North in the Himalayas & South India ( yes, stayed & lived for years & not just travelled). Presently, I am in Tamilnadu where my family resides & I am due to move any time from there after completion of my present special assignment on which I am working. So, I think you can safely rely on my knowledge of various cultures & people in India.


But in Tamil Nadu, I did meet brother Saivas who were Saiva only, and knew it. They were householders as well. There were Murugan bhaktars who went only to Murugan temples.

I don't deny your experience & I don't say that there may not be any of that sort but I personally don't know any family which is strictly Shaivite or Vaishnavite to the extent that they don't respect the other sect or form of God. I am surprised how you found such people in India !

Actually, you hardly know how many worshippable forms & names exist within Hinduism ( that includes me too). You travel from village to village & discover that there are many deities who are unheard of in any other part of India. They can at best be called demi-gods as they don't figure in Hindu scriptures. However, I have found that all main deities are considered just another form of either Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu, Mother Goddess or their family members as stated in the Puranas.

For example, Lord Ayappa is hardly known in in the North India. But who is Lird Ayappa ? He is considered a joint incarnation of both Lord Shiva & Lord Vishnu. So, there it gets connected to the main Gods indicated ibn the Puranas (as Lord Ayappa is not mentioned in the Puranas, as far as I know). Similarly, Lord Venkateshwara is a form of Lord Vishnu. Now, tell me which Hindu would not worship Lord Ayappa once he knows that he is a form of both Lord Shiva & Lord Vishnu or who will not worship Lord Murugan once he knows that Lord Murugan is none but Lord Kartikeya ?

The list of Gods & devatas worshipped within Hinduism goes beyond what is mentioned in Hindu scriptures. However, all are somehow or the other connected to main deities mentioned in the Puranas. The unawareness that you have noticed & the indifference to unknown forms & names of God that you have seen is not untrue but that has a different reason. After all, why go after thousands of names & forms ? What purpose will it solve ? Where is the time & resources to do that ? If I am serving the same God irrespective of name & form, why not concentrate on my chosen form & name ?


I have also met those who thought 'vanakkam' was some sort of insult to "Namaskaram". That one I didn't understand.

That is due to dirty politics played in the past by the North Indian politicians & the South Indian politicians. This very high sensitiveness to language exists only in Tamilnadu, though politicians of some other states too have tried to play this dirty game for the sake of garnering votes. Tamilnadu is the only state where reading Hindi is not compulsory & there is a practical difficulty in Tamilnadu to interact in any one Indian language if you speak some language other than Tamil. This is a long sad story & it has hurt both India as a whole & Tamilnadu as a state. This has nothing to do with Hinduism.


[As you know, some Gods are quite regional. I don't recall seeing many Kali temples in the South, and I know that Murugan is unheard of in most of the North.

That is where I disagree. Who is this Murugan ? He is none other than son of Lord Shiva who is known as Kartikeya in North India. Do you want to say that Hindus in the North don't know who Kartikeya is or they do not worship Kartikeya ? Yes, He is not worshipped as the main deity in any temple there but he is worshipped as part of Lord Shiva's family. Who is Goddess Kaali when all mother Goddesses are accepted essentially the same ? You name any Hindu worth his name who would refuse to worship Mother Kaali as he has never heard her name ! I can't believe it !!


Certainly many Hindus wouldn't thionk of putting Christ on their shrine, as you claim. I wonder what TTA's view would be on that. (Actually I have a pretty good idea, as do you.)


See, keeping Jesus's image in Hindu shrine is quite different from respecting him as another form of God. Here I am talking about the psyche of a common Hindu. He is not taught "tolerance" towards other other religions but treating other religions & their ideas of God "with equal respect".There are people who would not agree with me here but they don't represent the majority of Hindus who I am talking about. Off late, the bitterness has spread due to policies of conversion played by other religious institutions & due to our politicians who always gain whenever they are able to divide us on one issue or the other.

Regards,

OM

rkpande
07 December 2009, 02:42 AM
I couldn't agree more with devotee. i am from north India and during our schooling and collage life, i have seen that almost all worship all forms of god with some particular affinity to some god form, eg some will worship lord Ganesha more than any one else, some lord Rrama, Kkrishana or kali. during distress they will try to please that particular god. Even during my army days where every two years i use to interect with different set of jawans and JCO's, may be 500 or more and i found the same Hindu tolerant spirit.
regards,
rk

atanu
07 December 2009, 04:50 AM
Namaste Everyone,

I also agree with Devotee. In which religion, there are at least not two groups? In eastern religions, there is no violence between sects. And inherently all groups are joined through OM. It is actually a wonder, how such extreme diversity is still cohesive. Some differences exist because Hindu religion teaches questioning. Debates etc. have been part of Vedantic tradition that apparently seem divisive but actually gives rise to better understanding and meeting of paths and minds.

Although, all are born with instinctive feeling of separateness, Hindus, IMO, get over this instinct faster than others. I have seen people of streets in Varanasi speak "We are all joined by Atma". At Puri, a person by the surname of Mishra remarked. on hearing of my surname, that we shared our source from same Rishi.

In which other religion it is taught so prominently that all are like beads on a single garland, joined by one thread? And who has seen any violence among sects in India?

Om Namah Shivaya

kshama
07 December 2009, 05:52 AM
Dear Blessed Members of the Forum,

Namaskar. I am pleased to hear the views from you. I do agree, nowadays, youths do not care much to know about the philosphies in Hinduism. In a way, they become more liberal in their thinking (though it's good), but then too, we must always study our roots, if not, we won't be able to answer our own family members ( our kids) about the significance of some rituals or celebrations pertaining Hinduism. So it leads to ignorance.

As a Hindu born outside India, though it is hard to grasp knowledge of spirituality and religion like you guys, I try my level best to at least know some basic informations. And I am blessed to be in a forum where I can learn directly from esteemed members like you guys.

Namaste.

Eastern Mind
07 December 2009, 06:32 AM
Vannakkam all: Thank you all for the many responses. I wasn't attempting to argue with Devotee, just to express doubt as to his theories. Previous to now, I was only hearing it from one person, which isn't exactly statistically valid. (Not to belittle your observations, Devotee.) So now, with the input of several others such as Atanu, Satay, etc. I feel I have a much better handle on it. I also want to reiterate that I have no ill will to any other rmembers of any other view. Just wishing for clarity and iunderstanding. Devotee, you are so lucky to have travelled and lived in so many parts of India. From that you would have a far better handle on the diversity yet unifying forces of the whole nation. This would stand out in contrast to the chap who has lived in one small village his whole life. Being a western convert, I confess to knowing very little at times.

The magazine 'Hinduism Today" as some of you might know, started out as "the New Saivite World" but was soon changed due to similar ideas as the ones being expressed here.

Aum Namasivaya

Eastern Mind
07 December 2009, 06:49 AM
I don't deny your experience & I don't say that there may not be any of that sort but I personally don't know any family which is strictly Shaivite or Vaishnavite to the extent that they don't respect the other sect or form of God. I am surprised how you found such people in India !


You misunderstood this. I was not saying I met anyone like this either. God forbid, I may have reacted to that sort of narrow-mindedness. I was saying I saw people who worshipped one form of God 99% of the time. Take the residents of Palani or Chidambaram for example. They get up, go to work, try to earn enough to live, and go to temple, which happens to be Muruga or Siva. They can't afford to travel to Sri Rangam. I never talked to anyone hardly because of my not understanding Tamil. That in no way suggests they didn't respect another sect. Just because I don't go regularly to several temples in my city doesn't mean I don't respect what others are doing.

In Mauritius, all the Tamils there thought that there was only Murugan. they didn't know Siva was the Supreme from a Saiva perspective, until Gurudeva got there.

At the Omaha temple, I went to see Ganesha in another city as a pilgrimage, a duty to set aside my worldly stuff for but a moment. There were shrines to Gods and Goddesses I wouldn't have fully recognised except for the names written above. I didn't spit at them, or walk past with head down, or turn my head in disrespect. I paused and did pranams. Obviously. But when it came time to sit down in front of a particular shrine to meditate, I chose the Siva Lingam.

Aum Namasivaya

kshama
16 December 2009, 03:02 PM
Blessed Members of the Forum,

I noticed some pattern of thinking amongst members here that are lack tact. Wheter you are recent-convert to Hinduism or born-Hindu you are still a HINDU. Nobody is high nobody is low. The same atman is in all. This apllies to people of other faith too, they too are creations of God.

All these confusions, hatred, narrow-mindedness and stems from either from lack of knowlege or simply being ignorant.

Let us be respectful to each other and to people of other faiths. That is my humble request.

ScottMalaysia
17 December 2009, 07:24 PM
Namaste Kshama,

Your noble ideas are most welcome. :)

Actually, the "core" (born Indian Hindus) of the Hindu society is not divided in sects/sampradayas as it is felt in foreign lands (i.e. outside India) or on internet. There are two classes here. One class represents the common Hindu who worships various deities observes different rituals but believes in One-ness of all forms of God & also believes in formless God equally. Then there are Saints/Monks who are "normally" not householders & who have have joined some sect taking a Guru from that sect. Now, though the underlying principals remain the same for all Hindus, the differences of opinions are there. It is not that they deny other sects do anything against the scriptures i.e. the Vedas but they for obvious reasons are more oriented towards their tailor-made philosophies, rituals & doctrines. Actually, what I have noticed that this is more because Saints belonging to any one Sampradaya don't have much spare time to study & understand the other Sampradaya correctly & as deeply as is required because they have their hands already full with their daily routine on their own path.

That is true to some extent in Malaysia. The majority of Hindus seem to be Saivite, although a Hindu man did tell me that it's generally half Saivites and half Vaishnavas. Most Hindu rituals are Saivite. Throughout the entire Klang Valley area, I've only seen three Vaishnava temples - Geeta Ashram in Petaling Jaya, Lakshmi-Narayan Mandir in KL and Sri Sundaraja Perumal Temple in Klang (which wasn't open when I went). Most of the other temples are Saivite.

However, most Hindus won't know anything about belonging to a sect of Hinduism. My in-laws, who are born Hindus, probably wouldn't know what a Vaishnava or a Saivite was. My wife's paternal grandmother is a Krishna bhakta, but I don't think she follows any sect of Vaishnavism or knows anything about it. Most Hindus here are simply devoted to a form of God without being sectarian (although most of the temples and rituals are Saivite). Most of them probably wouldn't have any idea about Advaita or Dvaita either.

Also, from what I've seen, many Hindus will know how to perform all the Hindu rituals, but they won't have read the Vedas or the Bhagavad-Gita. My wife's maternal grandfather performs puja every day, but I didn't see a copy of the Bhagavad-Gita or any religious book in his house.



In fact, most likely you will find that for him Jesus too is another form of God.

I have no trouble with this. I'll be going to church on Christmas eve to celebrate and sing Christmas carols. I don't accept their sectarian dogmas but I'll worship Jesus.

sanjaya
17 December 2009, 07:38 PM
However, most Hindus won't know anything about belonging to a sect of Hinduism. My in-laws, who are born Hindus, probably wouldn't know what a Vaishnava or a Saivite was. My wife's paternal grandmother is a Krishna bhakta, but I don't think she follows any sect of Vaishnavism or knows anything about it. Most Hindus here are simply devoted to a form of God without being sectarian (although most of the temples and rituals are Saivite). Most of them probably wouldn't have any idea about Advaita or Dvaita either.

Also, from what I've seen, many Hindus will know how to perform all the Hindu rituals, but they won't have read the Vedas or the Bhagavad-Gita. My wife's maternal grandfather performs puja every day, but I didn't see a copy of the Bhagavad-Gita or any religious book in his house.

Yes, I think this is quite true. I actually didn't know that Hinduism had Vaishnavite or Saivite sects until quite recently, nor had I read the Gita (I still haven't read as much of the Vedas as I would like to). In my experience Western Hindus tend to be much more knowledgable on the Scriptures and the details of Hinduism than I am.

kshama
17 December 2009, 07:46 PM
Dear Blessed Members of the Forum,

As a Malaysian Indian, since child till now, I can see that most Malaysian Indian people have this thought that all Gods are one. So they will have no problems worshipping Mahadeva, Lord Krishna, Lord Ganesha, Devi and even Lord Muniandy (where people offer non-vegetarian food occasionnaly).

Most people here (Malaysians), might not have read the Gita, Vedas or Agamas, but they believe God is one. That's the beauty of it. People say ignorance is bliss, perhaps in this context it is true.

In contrary, I have seen many learned people in many parts of the world, who are sectarians to the core, without even considering whomever they are bashing are creations of the same God too. So, in this case, does knowledge brings wisdom?

Eastern Mind
17 December 2009, 08:11 PM
Yes, I think this is quite true. I actually didn't know that Hinduism had Vaishnavite or Saivite sects until quite recently, nor had I read the Gita (I still haven't read as much of the Vedas as I would like to). In my experience Western Hindus tend to be much more knowledgable on the Scriptures and the details of Hinduism than I am.

Sanjaya: I am a staunch sectarian, and I see no problem with knowing this, and practising it. This does not mean that one cannot respect other's beliefs. Sectarianism works for me because it lessens the scriptural load and keeps practice simpler. And just because one doesn't know of something (in your case, sects) doesn't mean its not there. So much goes back to one's personal experience. Of course mine is very limited.

Aum Namasivaya

devotee
17 December 2009, 10:48 PM
Namaste Scott,



However, most Hindus won't know anything about belonging to a sect of Hinduism. My in-laws, who are born Hindus, probably wouldn't know what a Vaishnava or a Saivite was. My wife's paternal grandmother is a Krishna bhakta, but I don't think she follows any sect of Vaishnavism or knows anything about it. Most Hindus here are simply devoted to a form of God without being sectarian (although most of the temples and rituals are Saivite). Most of them probably wouldn't have any idea about Advaita or Dvaita either.


Exactly ! The born-Hindus don't different between sects. They normally have pictures or images of all pauranic gods/godesses and without any feeling of differences, they worship all of them equally.

I will tell you something here :

In my family : My father was a Vaishnava (he took diksha under a Vaishnava Guru) but he was also an ardent devotee of Lord Bhairava (a form of Lord Shiva) & mother goddess Durgaa. My brother is a staunch Shaivite though he also worships all forms equally. My sister is an ardent devotee of Maa Durgaa. My wife is a strong devotee of Lord Hanumaan. I am an Advaitin with strong affinity to both Lord Krishna & Lord Shiva. We all celebrate Holi, Deepaawali, Mahashivaraatri, Ganesh Chaturthi, Durgaa Pooja, Krishna Janmaashtami, Chhath (worshipping Sun God) etc. with equal fervour. What sect do we belong to ?

Normally, similar story is with most born Hindu-families. Now, you yourself can decide how sectarian the Hindu Society really is.

OM

ScottMalaysia
18 December 2009, 12:36 AM
Dear Blessed Members of the Forum,

As a Malaysian Indian, since child till now, I can see that most Malaysian Indian people have this thought that all Gods are one. So they will have no problems worshipping Mahadeva, Lord Krishna, Lord Ganesha, Devi and even Lord Muniandy (where people offer non-vegetarian food occasionnaly).

Most Hindus believe that all the gods are just different forms of the One Supreme Lord. The main exception is ISKCON who says that Krishna alone is Supreme and the other gods are His servants.

Who is Lord Muniandy? Is he one of these "demigods" that are local to Southern India like Madurai Veeran and Karuppu Sami?


In contrary, I have seen many learned people in many parts of the world, who are sectarians to the core, without even considering whomever they are bashing are creations of the same God too. So, in this case, does knowledge brings wisdom?

When you have beliefs that you state are unequivocally true, then you will find others who don't hold those beliefs. That is where the bashing comes from. Most Hindus accept that there many paths leading to God (ekam sat vipra bahuda vadanti) and so they refrain from this. There are exceptions, though, such as ISKCON devotees who bash Shiva and Saivites.

kshama
18 December 2009, 12:51 AM
Namaste ScottMalaysia Ji,

Lord Muniandy can be classified as one of the many Tamil village gods or guardian spirits.