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Shaan
07 December 2009, 03:07 PM
1. You sow a seed and water it, and in some days u see sapling.

2. You dont sow a seed, can u see a sapling in your land? just by saying I surrender or you are my savior.

You do good/bad deeds (karma) and you see results according to your karma. You get an animal yoni or manushya yoni or a plant yoni based on your karma.

You do all the sins and then come surrendor, or say this is now my saviour, and all my sins are free? Is it possible? whatever your deeds are, you will have to bear, no force in the universe can make u extempt of your deeds, this is the way the world is managed.

Purush and Prakriti is a concept of managent, Where Prakriti (mahamaya) is management form of god, and purush form is lord krishna himself.

I really wonder how people get into a fairytale religion and start believing and killing on basis of no rationality? Anybody from other side can give their views?

amra
07 December 2009, 05:53 PM
I believe in fairies.

and tales about them.........


Once upon a time the fairy worshippers said 'sajda kyon nahin kardey fairyian noo!' to the non-believers. They said Hum ko fairyian da vishvaas nahin haan. Hum lok woh Maha Ladoo jis ne sara jagat noo paida kita us noo sajda karday.' The fairy worshippers began to cry and said 'Tum loko ney sada vishvaas tor diya, woh fairyian sada samne pragat neh hotiyaan, tum baatao woh Maha Ladoo tumhare chaksu's keh samne ate hain? Then those sly worshippers of the Maha Ladoo said 'Nahin, be-samaj kuthay, woh Maha Ladoo ghaib hai, woh Alakh hai aakhon samne nahin pragat hota - tum kaalay kuthay, - yeh be-adabi baatein mat karo!

To cut the story short - God then left the Earth because of this fiasco, 99% of humanity was in slavery. And instead of seeing God and his aeviternal truths people believed in words.

Eastern Mind
07 December 2009, 06:59 PM
Namaste amra and Shaan:

Amra: Perhaps you can translate that for me. Its up to you.

Regarding fairytales in religion, rest assured that a Christian or a Muslim would most likely see the Mahabharata or Ramayana as just elaborate fairytales, or myths. They would point out similarities such as royalty, kings and queens, fighting, and rescues common to many fairy tales of all cultures. So it all depends on one's perspective. How will we ever get along as humans with continued bashing? One has the right to think what they want based on logic or powerful intuition, but jump on a bandwagon of bashing, that just reveals one's own lower nature and intolerance.
Aum Namasivaya

atanu
07 December 2009, 07:46 PM
I believe in fairies.

and tales about them.........

--- Hum lok woh Maha Ladoo jis ne sara jagat noo paida kita us noo sajda karday.' ------

Maha Ladoo :)

sanjaya
07 December 2009, 08:04 PM
1. You sow a seed and water it, and in some days u see sapling.

2. You dont sow a seed, can u see a sapling in your land? just by saying I surrender or you are my savior.

You do good/bad deeds (karma) and you see results according to your karma. You get an animal yoni or manushya yoni or a plant yoni based on your karma.

You do all the sins and then come surrendor, or say this is now my saviour, and all my sins are free? Is it possible? whatever your deeds are, you will have to bear, no force in the universe can make u extempt of your deeds, this is the way the world is managed.

Purush and Prakriti is a concept of managent, Where Prakriti (mahamaya) is management form of god, and purush form is lord krishna himself.

I really wonder how people get into a fairytale religion and start believing and killing on basis of no rationality? Anybody from other side can give their views?

I agree with EM that there's nothing to be gained by bashing other religions, so I don't want to ever go on some crusade (if you'll forgive the expression) against Christianity or Islam. At the same time I see your point: there's a problem when the way you live your life has no bearing on how God treats you. Christians tout this doctrine of "salvation by grace through faith" as though it were some sort of virtue, but I'm not sure I understand why. Furthermore by saying that all sins have the same effect of condemning people to hell, they are equalizing all sins. This is a very dangerous thing: when stealing a loaf of bread is no different in God's eyes than mass murder, when "we are all sinners" (thus failing to discern between normal people and those who commit atrocities), then any sense of personal responsibility is lost.

Now, if this didn't hurt anyone, then I wouldn't really care what Christians or Muslims believe. Indeed many Christians are very good people. But many are very bad people, as evidenced by the many high-profile Christians that are caught committing gross sins. And these people claim that they are absolved of all responsibility by simply confessing to Jesus. And even the good Christians keep sending missionaries to India, because "we are all sinners" who need to be converted to Christianity regardless of how well we live our lives. The problem here is that these religious beliefs lead to bad behaviors that affect the rest of us. What should be done about this? I don't really know.

TatTvamAsi
08 December 2009, 01:06 AM
I believe in fairies.

Now it all makes sense!

Aahh.. liberals...:D

ScottMalaysia
08 December 2009, 01:24 AM
1. You sow a seed and water it, and in some days u see sapling.

2. You dont sow a seed, can u see a sapling in your land? just by saying I surrender or you are my savior.

You do good/bad deeds (karma) and you see results according to your karma. You get an animal yoni or manushya yoni or a plant yoni based on your karma.

You do all the sins and then come surrendor, or say this is now my saviour, and all my sins are free? Is it possible? whatever your deeds are, you will have to bear, no force in the universe can make u extempt of your deeds, this is the way the world is managed.

Purush and Prakriti is a concept of managent, Where Prakriti (mahamaya) is management form of god, and purush form is lord krishna himself.

I really wonder how people get into a fairytale religion and start believing and killing on basis of no rationality? Anybody from other side can give their views?

I can see where you're coming from on this.

Protestants believe that you are saved only by belief in Jesus, not by doing good works. This is based on Ephesians 2:8-9:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast."

The Protestants interpret this as meaning that all you have to do to be saved is believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and accept Him and your personal saviour. God's grace comes from this belief alone - it doesn't matter if you do good deeds or not. Once you have accepted Christ, many Protestants believe that you cannot lose your salvation and will go to heaven after you die no matter what you do.

The Catholics and Orthodox, who are much closer to the original Church, believe that good works are important. They believe that they are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit. If you commit mortal sins and do not repent before death, then you can lose your salvation and go to hell.

So it seems that you're mainly referring to the Protestant belief that you are saved by faith alone. The Catholics and Orthodox, who can trace their priesthood back to the Apostles, have a more realistic view that good works do matter and bad works can lose you your salvation.

amra
08 December 2009, 05:40 AM
Now it all makes sense!

Aahh.. liberals...:D


fairy=yaksha

LALKAR
08 December 2009, 06:00 AM
Namaste All,

What is going on here ?

and Amra G, don't use too much Punjabi
aetthe bahut kam hi jande haen;)

amra
08 December 2009, 08:21 AM
Namaste amra and Shaan:

Amra: Perhaps you can translate that for me. Its up to you.


My dear Brother forget that story it was no good i'll do a better one just for you, because I love to read your posts.

I'll try to keep it pertinent to the thread.......

Once upon a time a Devil from the West a Man from the East and a God from the North met up for a chat. There was one from the South but he is invisible and unnameable and he doesn't talk he just hits with his stick. Now they all had brought with them tablets of stone inscribed with certain teachings. The Devil said his tablet had been inscribed with a sword made of fire. The God said his tablet had been inscribed by Lightening from the heavens. The Man said his Tablet had been etched by wind rain and earth. Then the God who was the wisest said let us compare what is written on these tablets. And Lo! the tablets described the very same thing word for word! The three were stunned. They stared at each other for a long time, for each of them secretly thought that they had a superior tablet of teachings than the others. The Devil rose up and said with unfocused smoky eyes my sword of fire is the most powerful Sajda karo tum kuthayon! (Bow down you dogs) The Man laughed and said Vi-arth baatein mat karo Moorakh! (do not talk nonsense fool!) The wind and rain teri talwar ki Aagg noo bujh deinge(will put out the fire of your sword) Then the God raising himself to full stature and with an arrogantly serene placid face said the fire from the heavens will strike you both tum kuthay de putray shish jhuka key apne shishon dey upar dhool sit-o kyon key aasi moorakhta dekha-kai tum salay kuthay daya de pater nahin hain main tum uper thukda hain. (you sons of dogs lower your heads and throw dust on your heads by saying such foolish things you are not worthy of compassion, i spit on you.

This then went on and on the three forgot that the teachings on all three tablets was the same. And the one from the South was laughing licking his lips and rubbing his hands together...........

Eastern Mind
08 December 2009, 08:29 AM
amra.. Thank you for translating this time.

Aum Namasivaya

atanu
08 December 2009, 09:46 AM
My dear Brother forget that story it was no good i'll do a better one just for you, because I love to read your posts.

I'll try to keep it pertinent to the thread.......

Once upon a time a Devil from the West a Man from the East and a God from the North met up for a chat. There was one from the South but he is invisible and unnameable and he doesn't talk he just hits with his stick. Now they all had brought with them tablets of stone inscribed with certain teachings. The Devil said his tablet had been inscribed with a sword made of fire. The God said his tablet had been inscribed by Lightening from the heavens. The Man said his Tablet had been etched by wind rain and earth. Then the God who was the wisest said let us compare what is written on these tablets. And Lo! the tablets described the very same thing word for word! The three were stunned. They stared at each other for a long time, for each of them secretly thought that they had a superior tablet of teachings than the others. The Devil rose up and said with unfocused smoky eyes my sword of fire is the most powerful Sajda karo tum kuthayon! (Bow down you dogs) The Man laughed and said Vi-arth baatein mat karo Moorakh! (do not talk nonsense fool!) The wind and rain teri talwar ki Aagg noo bujh deinge(will put out the fire of your sword) Then the God raising himself to full stature and with an arrogantly serene placid face said the fire from the heavens will strike you both tum kuthay de putray shish jhuka key apne shishon dey upar dhool sit-o kyon key aasi moorakhta dekha-kai tum salay kuthay daya de pater nahin hain main tum uper thukda hain. (you sons of dogs lower your heads and throw dust on your heads by saying such foolish things you are not worthy of compassion, i spit on you.

This then went on and on the three forgot that the teachings on all three tablets was the same. And the one from the South was laughing licking his lips and rubbing his hands together...........


amra saab,

:) But what was that maha Ladoo?

Om

Explorer
22 March 2010, 06:05 AM
The math usually does not add up in the Christian faith, from what I have seen at least:

1 life of sin = endless torture
1 life of sin + some repentance and belief = endless bliss
1 life of sin + being a dedicated monk or saint = same endless bliss

Very disproportionate consequences from what I can see, not too much balance in the system.

Also the Christian God was very bloody and ruthless in the days of old, and would show up in visions, do miracles and send angels to smite armies and cities on many occasions, in plain sight. But then his mood changed, he became less active and more compassionate, turn the other cheek as it were, and also now that we have cameras and satellites to document things, he no longer appears at all like he used to, although any apparition now would have a huge effect and cause millions to convert :)

sanjaya
22 March 2010, 07:36 PM
The math usually does not add up in the Christian faith, from what I have seen at least:

1 life of sin = endless torture
1 life of sin + some repentance and belief = endless bliss
1 life of sin + being a dedicated monk or saint = same endless bliss

Very disproportionate consequences from what I can see, not too much balance in the system.

Also the Christian God was very bloody and ruthless in the days of old, and would show up in visions, do miracles and send angels to smite armies and cities on many occasions, in plain sight. But then his mood changed, he became less active and more compassionate, turn the other cheek as it were, and also now that we have cameras and satellites to document things, he no longer appears at all like he used to, although any apparition now would have a huge effect and cause millions to convert :)

I very much agree with your statement about the math not adding up. I might be able to accept the idea that God vengefully punishes sin. But this equalization of all sin is what makes no sense to me. Christians claim that this is because humans don't understand the terrible magnitude of all sin. They claim that stealing from a candy store is effectively no different from mass murder. The idea is that the candy thief should repent of his ways and recognize that he is as bad as a mass murderer for what he's done. Usually it works the other way. The Christian politican who gets caught in a sex scandal appeases his conscience by telling himself that his adultery is no worse than stealing an office stapler, because of the equality of all sin. This doctrine of salvation by grace through faith, though touted by evangelicals as the core of their faith, is very dangerous, because it makes light of sin instead of having the intended effect. I much prefer the Hindu view of sin, in which each sin results in a commensurate negative effect, as per the law of karma. Christians say that our belief in karma obscures God's grace, because it leaves no room for grace. This also is not true, because karma can be eliminated by wholehearted devotion to God. But if Christians want to accuse Hindus of having no quick fixes to sin (i.e. say a prayer and be free of guilt), then that's a charge I'll happily accept.

As far as the apparent change in the Christian God's behavior, I suppose it can be partly excused by the fact that there are many passages in the Old Testament about God's mercy and love, and even a few New Testament passages about God's wrath. The big problem for them is that God doesn't seem to be doing anything today. As you said, in the age of video technology, God's miracles seem to have toned down. That's the problem when you believe in a God of the gaps, as Christians seem to.

Explorer
22 March 2010, 08:50 PM
As far as the apparent change in the Christian God's behavior, I suppose it can be partly excused by the fact that there are many passages in the Old Testament about God's mercy and love, and even a few New Testament passages about God's wrath. The big problem for them is that God doesn't seem to be doing anything today. As you said, in the age of video technology, God's miracles seem to have toned down. That's the problem when you believe in a God of the gaps, as Christians seem to.

Yeah also with the appearance of Statistics, we now know that the % of people of ANY religion, that are killed / maimed / wounded in earthquakes, hurricanes and other natural disasters, closely matches their % in the general population.

Meaning, in a population with 50% Christians and 50% Hindus, in an earthquake you are likely to see 50% Christian victims and 50% Hindu ones. So much for the gods' direct involvement and intervention, in protecting their own team :)

IMHO, the concept of 'as above so below' can be taken 100% literally: We are a part of God and Creation, exactly how the cells on our fingers are a part of us. We do take care of them, provide protection and nourishment, and if they have it bad we have it bad, but we don't spend any time thinking about, or communicating with cell no. 12312345873485973458923423 or judging it in some specific way.

It's all a self-regulating system, there are laws, causes and effects, but generally the One Source, the Infinite, will not actually 'spend time' to chat with any one human, answer prayers directly or favour one side in a war. That's what I for one believe at least :)

sanjaya
23 March 2010, 01:22 AM
Yeah also with the appearance of Statistics, we now know that the % of people of ANY religion, that are killed / maimed / wounded in earthquakes, hurricanes and other natural disasters, closely matches their % in the general population.

Meaning, in a population with 50% Christians and 50% Hindus, in an earthquake you are likely to see 50% Christian victims and 50% Hindu ones. So much for the gods' direct involvement and intervention, in protecting their own team :)

This is quite true. Granted, a Christian might respond that God allows Christians to suffer in order to give the rest of us an image of what hell will be like if we don't repent and believe in Christianity (see Luke chapter 13, on Jesus' statements concerning the falling of the Tower of Siloam). But the truth is, we don't know what God's purpose is in all of this. That's the problem with Christianity: it makes specific claims about the nature of God, but we don't actually see any correspondance to reality.


IMHO, the concept of 'as above so below' can be taken 100% literally: We are a part of God and Creation, exactly how the cells on our fingers are a part of us. We do take care of them, provide protection and nourishment, and if they have it bad we have it bad, but we don't spend any time thinking about, or communicating with cell no. 12312345873485973458923423 or judging it in some specific way.

It's all a self-regulating system, there are laws, causes and effects, but generally the One Source, the Infinite, will not actually 'spend time' to chat with any one human, answer prayers directly or favour one side in a war. That's what I for one believe at least :)

Personally I believe what Hindu Scriptures teach about God. Just as Sri Krishna favored the Pandevas in the Kurukshetra war, God will also take sides in human affairs. Specifically he will side with the righteous. I also believe what many Hindu saints and avatars have said: that God answers the prayers of his devotees.

But the good thing about Hinduism is that we tolerate a multitude of views on any subject, including deistic and atheistic views. If you believe in a self-regulating universe, and it leads you to live a good life, then that's good enough for me. Of course I'm always up for debate if anyone's interested... ;)

Explorer
23 March 2010, 10:32 AM
Personally I believe what Hindu Scriptures teach about God. Just as Sri Krishna favored the Pandevas in the Kurukshetra war, God will also take sides in human affairs. Specifically he will side with the righteous. I also believe what many Hindu saints and avatars have said: that God answers the prayers of his devotees.

But the good thing about Hinduism is that we tolerate a multitude of views on any subject, including deistic and atheistic views. If you believe in a self-regulating universe, and it leads you to live a good life, then that's good enough for me. Of course I'm always up for debate if anyone's interested... ;)

Can't hurt to share opinions, and though most of what I believe comes from direct vision during trips, I am open to learning about the scriptures, since many people that contributed to their creations were on much higher spiritual levels, so they have much to teach us.

I think most of the misunderstandings in all teachings today stems not so much from the teacher, who may have a real connection, but from the imperfections of the language we use, and methods of communications available to us.

From what I have seen there are indeed systems and beings that take our thoughts, frequencies and intentions, and manifest them into material reality. So our 'prayers' if you want, may well get 'answered'.

What I am saying is that the beings and systems that do the answering and manifesting, are, like us, just another part of creation, and not The One Source of it.

The one vague perception I have had of the source (with some DMT), was a lot like the Sun, but much larger. There was connection to the Big Bang, to all galaxies, all time, all forms of life that have ever lived and will ever live as long as the universe exists, it was shining a bright light of life and vitality on all of us, and sustained this whole universe with its presence.

However the closer one looked to it, the more time and space shifted, the rules changed, the beings on those levels were ever greater and greater, millions of times more powerful and complex than us, and the Source itself was far beyond what I for one could grasp.

When talking about God (or the One Source as I call it) we must remember that this is an entity (?) that deals ABOVE the level of planet, star system, galaxy, galaxy cluster, billions of years, even countless non-material planes that coexist with us. Much above all that, and we are MORE different from it, than bacteria and viruses are from us.

Sure there can be incarnations, manifestations of certain limited aspects of it, reduced so we can access them and learn, but beyond that, at least for myself, I found that only this sort of comparison puts things in perspective: we are like a single cell in God's body.

Now I'm not saying direct communication is impossible, but rather that the distance required to achieve it, the change required within us, is MUCH larger than most people realize.

And to get back on topic, for Christians to promote the idea that putting the head down, palms together and knees on the floor is enough to get ego-driven 'prayers' all the way up to the Source, is to me, nothing short of spectacularly funny :)

Eastern Mind
23 March 2010, 12:45 PM
Vanakkam Explorer: I have been reading your posts in all threads. I am no expert by any means, but this is what I have read or know in regards to several of your questions.

Firstly, I know of no Hindu sage or Guru who recommends hallucinogenics as a means at all. They are seen as temporal gateways to inner worlds only, and hold no purpose. Beyond that, many are seen as dangerous, just as kundalini rising when one is not ready is seen as dangerous to the nervous system. The only religious system that I am aware of that condones this is some native American tribes and their use of peyote.

Having said all that, I also believe in many other worlds we are unaware of. There are countless other beings that both have form and don't. Some do not need physical bodies at all, but can live entirely in astral forms. The universe is vast and at it's core is a sun known as the central sun. It is said to be the chief life-giver of the entire universe, and many millions of times larger than ours.

All this is beyond linear time and linear space. But the problem arises as to what value this knowledge is. What value is it to know this stuff? Does it help in the individual soul's evolution? What is the purpose?

We are here on this fire planet (called a fire planet because the internal core is still hot) to inhabit these bodies for one purpose only. That is to realise the Self - God within. Nothing more nothing less. We migrated here eons ago because the fire planet that we used to live on was cooling, and in order to have the same types of bodies, we needed a new planet. The migration was of souls, not of physical bodies. This happened under the guidance of the great Pleidian master, Lord Muruga.

All this other knowledge is there, and can be reached via the great akashic library where the history books of the universe are written down. Great interplanetary masters can access this library and have.

The only connection to Hinduism I know of that explains this stuff is the book 'Lemurian Scrolls' 'written' by Subramuniyaswami. This book might be of interest.

Certainly there are vortexes on the planet. Energy vortexes where this stuff is more intense. I felt that at an ancient temple in Tamil Nadu, India, called Palani Hills.

Of course, this is all just my opinion and others will vary. I think most of us here would suggest you stop the use of hallucinogenics though.

Aum Namasivaya

ScottMalaysia
23 March 2010, 03:38 PM
The math usually does not add up in the Christian faith, from what I have seen at least:

1 life of sin = endless torture
1 life of sin + some repentance and belief = endless bliss
1 life of sin + being a dedicated monk or saint = same endless bliss

Very disproportionate consequences from what I can see, not too much balance in the system.

Ah, it's the belief in Jesus that balances everything out. As I mentioned in the "Christianity - Another Viewpoint" thread, Christians believe that they are condemned to die for their sins, but Jesus took their place when He died for them on the Cross. Therefore:

1 life of sin + belief in Jesus = endless bliss


Also the Christian God was very bloody and ruthless in the days of old, and would show up in visions, do miracles and send angels to smite armies and cities on many occasions, in plain sight. But then his mood changed, he became less active and more compassionate, turn the other cheek as it were, and also now that we have cameras and satellites to document things, he no longer appears at all like he used to, although any apparition now would have a huge effect and cause millions to convert :)

Yes, in Old Testament times, God was much more violent. He struck down the sons of Aaron for getting drunk and desecrating the Sanctuary. However, after the advent of Jesus, God was much more merciful - the New Testament does not describe God as striking people down or the like.

Ashvati
23 March 2010, 06:57 PM
On the subject of the difference between old testament and new testament God, two catholic friends of mine (brothers, in fact) were talking about a favorite voice actor of theirs, and one of them mentioned that this voice actor played only villains. The other pointed out that this actor had played the voice of God in a work titled (I think) "The bible: part one" to which the other brother replied "Yeah, part one, old testament, he was a villain". :D

Explorer
23 March 2010, 07:13 PM
Vanakkam Explorer: I have been reading your posts in all threads. I am no expert by any means, but this is what I have read or know in regards to several of your questions.

Firstly, I know of no Hindu sage or Guru who recommends hallucinogenics as a means at all. They are seen as temporal gateways to inner worlds only, and hold no purpose. Beyond that, many are seen as dangerous, just as kundalini rising when one is not ready is seen as dangerous to the nervous system. The only religious system that I am aware of that condones this is some native American tribes and their use of peyote.

There are a lot of amazonian tribes that use DMT containing Ayahuasca. DMT is the most potent one we know of, and also the one I've seen the great Sun with. I plan to go there some time when circumstances permit (Peru, most likely) and study under some guidance. I think that this sort of strong interest towards any field in a person, rarely occurs without good reason. Right now I don't know what that reason is, for me, but until I find something that makes more sense or provides clearer results, this is one of the paths I have to follow.



The universe is vast and at it's core is a sun known as the central sun. It is said to be the chief life-giver of the entire universe, and many millions of times larger than ours.

All this is beyond linear time and linear space. But the problem arises as to what value this knowledge is. What value is it to know this stuff? Does it help in the individual soul's evolution? What is the purpose? Might be ignorant of me, but at the moment I tend to identify what people call God, with that central Lifegiver sun. Can you share more about where you found this info ?

About the purpose, you might have seen in other posts that I consider it rather unknowable. We can only see a few meters ahead, like the headlights of a car, we cannot see the end road, or at least I for one do not claim to see it. As for how we can evolve and grow as souls, that's what I'm here to learn about :)

For instance what I've seen felt like that central sun, but it could just as well have been just one of my chakras, seen for the first time with the inner eye. So indeed some meditation and/or yoga practice is needed, in order to make clearer sense of these things.


All this other knowledge is there, and can be reached via the great akashic library where the history books of the universe are written down. Great interplanetary masters can access this library and have.

The only connection to Hinduism I know of that explains this stuff is the book 'Lemurian Scrolls' 'written' by Subramuniyaswami. This book might be of interest.Many thanks for the book title, I will look into it, as the Akashic knowledge has always been a topic of interest to me :)


Of course, this is all just my opinion and others will vary. I think most of us here would suggest you stop the use of hallucinogenics though.

Aum Namasivaya
I can only speak from personal experience here, and right now I feel that a balance can be found between these plants and meditation techniques. Currently I am lacking in the second part, in the sense that I don't have a daily meditation practice in place, but also I don't have a regular plants' practice, and my feeling is that I should.

I'm hoping that spending some time here with people that do meditate regularly and have regular rituals, my approach will also gradually shift more towards that. We will see. Many thanks for your reply, very useful :)

Explorer
23 March 2010, 07:46 PM
Ah, it's the belief in Jesus that balances everything out. As I mentioned in the "Christianity - Another Viewpoint" thread, Christians believe that they are condemned to die for their sins, but Jesus took their place when He died for them on the Cross. Therefore:

1 life of sin + belief in Jesus = endless blissSo does this make sense to you ? In other religions, karma applies equally to all souls, human or not, of one religion or another. Whether savage tribes in the jungle or members of any civilization, the rules apply the same way. They are universal.

Isn't there a strong disconnect, in saying that if you know and have faith in Jesus, the rules applied to your soul will be different ? CAN a tribesman in the jungle, 8000 BC, have ever known Jesus? Or inuits in arctic regions ?

Seems to me the whole system of the Bible makes some sense if you only consider the limited area and time that Jews lived in, but as soon as you expand it to what reality really is (the whole universe and all time) then it rapidly loses coherence.


Yes, in Old Testament times, God was much more violent. He struck down the sons of Aaron for getting drunk and desecrating the Sanctuary. However, after the advent of Jesus, God was much more merciful - the New Testament does not describe God as striking people down or the like.
So God, creator of all the galaxies, spaces seen and unseen of infinite complexity, has 'changed his mind' and way of acting on a planet, based on what the Jews did, and how they reacted. For a moment there, this reminded me of the ignorant way in which medieval humans believed themselves the center of all the universe, but no, I guess it must make sense:

God DOES change the way he interacts with all the galaxies in existance, based on how the Jews on planet Earth behaved. Apparently he tried the direct hands-on approach first, showing up personally, and and then when that didn't get the job done, he sent a human incarnation of himself, and switched to the 100% indirect, unseen approach. By the looks of it, he must be wingin' it and just trying stuff out as he goes, like the rest of us :)

ScottMalaysia
23 March 2010, 08:11 PM
So does this make sense to you ? In other religions, karma applies equally to all souls, human or not, of one religion or another. Whether savage tribes in the jungle or members of any civilization, the rules apply the same way. They are universal.

I'm not saying that I believe this, I'm just saying that this is what Christians believe. If you asked a Christian this, they'd most likely say "God can do anything"


Isn't there a strong disconnect, in saying that if you know and have faith in Jesus, the rules applied to your soul will be different ? CAN a tribesman in the jungle, 8000 BC, have ever known Jesus? Or inuits in arctic regions ?This question has been debated back and forth by Christians. Catholics believe in the "Limbo of the Fathers" where those people living before Jesus who died "in the friendship of God" waited until Jesus came and made it possible for them to enter heaven.

Regarding those who have never heard of Jesus, the Catholic Church teaches that if one dies "invincibly ignorant" of Jesus and the Catholic faith (i.e. they've never once heard about Jesus or the Catholic Church), then they may be saved, but it's ultimately up to God. Those who have heard about the Church but decided not to enter it will go to hell. Some dissident Catholics called Feenyists deny this and believe that all who are not in the Catholic Church, whether they've heard of it or not, will go to hell. Protestants take varying viewpoints on this issue, with some believing that God will have mercy on those who have never heard of Jesus, and others, such as Calvinists, believe that anyone who isn't a Christian and accepted Jesus will be condemned to everlasting torment.

Again, I'm not saying I believe this, but this is what Christians believe.


Seems to me the whole system of the Bible makes some sense if you only consider the limited area and time that Jews lived in, but as soon as you expand it to what reality really is (the whole universe and all time) then it rapidly loses coherence.

I believe that the Old Testament was revealed specifically to the Jews of that time, and the New Testament to the Christians. They have led many to do good works, and many to renounce the world to better serve God (monks and nuns). But it's not applicable to all times or situations, just like a primary school maths book wouldn't be any use to a college student.


So God, creator of all the galaxies, spaces seen and unseen of infinite complexity, has 'changed his mind' and way of acting on a planet, based on what the Jews did, and how they reacted. For a moment there, this reminded me of the ignorant way in which medieval humans believed themselves the center of all the universe, but no, I guess it must make sense:Christians have answered this question. I'll provide you with a couple of links, rather than copy and paste the text here.

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-different.html
http://respondingtoskeptics.wordpress.com/2007/08/20/old-testament-god-vs-new-testament-god/

Scholar and renowned religious reformer Bhaktivinoda Thakur (1838-1914) said the following about Christianity:

“Deliberating on the virtues and faults of this world, some moralistic monotheists concluded that the material world is not a place of pure happiness. Indeed, the sufferings outweigh the pleasures. They claim that the material world is a prison to punish the living entities. If there is punishment, then there must be a crime. If there were no crime, then why would there be any punishment? What crime did the living entities commit? Unable to properly answer this question, some men of small intelligence gave birth to a very wild idea. God created the first man and placed him in a pleasant garden with his wife. Then God forbade the man to taste the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Following the evil counsel of a wicked being, the first man and woman tasted the fruit of the tree of knowledge, thus disobeying God's command. In this way they fell from that garden into the material world filled with sufferings. Because of their offense, all other living entities are offenders from the moment of their birth. Not seeing any other way to remove this offense, God Himself took birth in a humanlike form, took on His own shoulders the sins of His followers, and then died. All who follow Him easily attain liberation, and all who do not follow Him fall into an eternal hell. In this way God assumes a humanlike form, punishes Himself, and thus liberates the living entities. An intelligent person cannot make sense of any of this.”

Ashvati
23 March 2010, 08:29 PM
I always hated the idea of original sin myself. Removing the shame of something your ancestors did is one thing, but original sin is just rediculous. Although I hear it used to refer to both the eating of the fruit and the fact that we're born through sex. Either way, original sin is a rediculous concept.

sanjaya
24 March 2010, 01:55 AM
So does this make sense to you ? In other religions, karma applies equally to all souls, human or not, of one religion or another. Whether savage tribes in the jungle or members of any civilization, the rules apply the same way. They are universal.

Isn't there a strong disconnect, in saying that if you know and have faith in Jesus, the rules applied to your soul will be different ? CAN a tribesman in the jungle, 8000 BC, have ever known Jesus? Or inuits in arctic regions ?

Seems to me the whole system of the Bible makes some sense if you only consider the limited area and time that Jews lived in, but as soon as you expand it to what reality really is (the whole universe and all time) then it rapidly loses coherence.

You bring up a good point. Theologians sometimes refer to this jokingly as the "pigmy in Africa" scenario. Christians have always had difficulty with the idea of people dying in ignorance of Christ going to hell (as any reasonable person should), and sometimes come up with funny ways to deny it. Catholics have constructed this doctrine of "invincible ignorance," which Scott already described. I've known some evangelicals to believe that if you die without hearing about Jesus, you can be saved. But these evangelicals have a hard time defending their view logically. Perhaps the most logical, self-consistent Christians I know of are the Reformed Protestants (i.e. Calvinists). They believe that all people are natural-born sinners destined for hell, and that it is a wonder anyone is saved at all. So all people who haven't heard about Jesus are in hell. This, I think, is just another reason to reject the absurdity that is called Christianity. Again we run into the same problem: an average person who sins at least once in his life is judged by God as equally guilty as someone who commits mass murder. Christianity, I think, encourages immorality by equalizing all sin.



So God, creator of all the galaxies, spaces seen and unseen of infinite complexity, has 'changed his mind' and way of acting on a planet, based on what the Jews did, and how they reacted. For a moment there, this reminded me of the ignorant way in which medieval humans believed themselves the center of all the universe, but no, I guess it must make sense:

God DOES change the way he interacts with all the galaxies in existance, based on how the Jews on planet Earth behaved. Apparently he tried the direct hands-on approach first, showing up personally, and and then when that didn't get the job done, he sent a human incarnation of himself, and switched to the 100% indirect, unseen approach. By the looks of it, he must be wingin' it and just trying stuff out as he goes, like the rest of us :)

Evangelical Christians, and probably Catholics, would respond by saying that God has remained consistent, and that Old Testament prophecies about Jesus prove that God has always had a plan to send Jesus to atone for the sin of the world. Thus, say the Christians, God did not send Jesus as a "plan B," but always meant to send him. I believe this theology breaks down because the Biblical prophecies don't stand up to scrutiny. If you Google some Jewish websites, you can read about how the New Testament mistranslates the Hebrew of the Tanakh (Old Testament), and how Christians have misinterpreted the Jewish Tanakh to support their own theology. While I think that Jesus himself is a great man and avatar of God, his followers have twisted the Jewish religion and misportrayed their religious texts. Don't take my word for it, just do some reading into Hebrew messianic prophecy and you'll see what I mean.


I always hated the idea of original sin myself. Removing the shame of something your ancestors did is one thing, but original sin is just rediculous. Although I hear it used to refer to both the eating of the fruit and the fact that we're born through sex. Either way, original sin is a rediculous concept.

Agreed. Original sin explains quite well why people behave sinfully. But it does nothing to explain human altruism. Christianity would have us regard humanity as some sort of vile scum. It emphasizes our evils without addressing the inherent good that many people display.

ScottMalaysia
24 March 2010, 06:35 AM
Perhaps the most logical, self-consistent Christians I know of are the Reformed Protestants (i.e. Calvinists). They believe that all people are natural-born sinners destined for hell, and that it is a wonder anyone is saved at all.Calvinists believe that God pre-destines some people to go to heaven and pre-destines others to go to hell. Many Christians disagree with this viewpoint, but they accept that God knows who will be saved and who won't. Knowing it and willing it aren't the same thing.


If you Google some Jewish websites, you can read about how the New Testament mistranslates the Hebrew of the Tanakh (Old Testament), and how Christians have misinterpreted the Jewish Tanakh to support their own theology. While I think that Jesus himself is a great man and avatar of God, his followers have twisted the Jewish religion and misportrayed their religious texts. Don't take my word for it, just do some reading into Hebrew messianic prophecy and you'll see what I mean.

The main mistranslation is in Isaiah 7:14. " Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel."

The actual Hebrew word used in the passage was עלמה (almah), which meant 'young woman'. While the vast majority of young women at that time would have been virgins, the Hebrew langauge actually contains a separate word for "virgin" בְּתוּלָה (betulah). When the Greeks translated this passage into their own language, they rendered 'almah' as Παρθένος (parthenos) which means 'virgin'. The earliest manuscripts of the Bible were in Greek and Latin, and we see that the Latin has erroneously translated the Greek: "virgo concipiet et pariet filium".

Christians state that Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies of what the Messiah would do in the Old Testament. However, this isn't true. The Old Testament states that the Messiah will:

Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple, in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt (Michah 4:1 and Ezekiel 40-45)
Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)
Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and Zephaniah 3:9)
Bring about global peace throughout the world (Isaiah 2:4; 11:5-9 and Michah 4:3-4).Jesus did none of these things. Also, the Old Testament said nothing about the Messiah being conceived by the Holy Ghost or being divine.

The Christians have a big list of Messianic Prophecies in the Old Testament that Jesus fulfilled in the New Testament. And the Jews have loads of information refuting these "prophecies".