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kshama
08 December 2009, 01:09 PM
Namaskar Blessed Members of the forum,

I would like to know, what esteemed members of the forum think about the given scenarios below. I would like to know what Vegetarian Hindus think abt these situations. Thank you.

A) A relative who you haven't seen for a long time paid a surprise visit. He is not vegetarian and not fond of vegetarian food. He asks you to bring him to a restaurant to eat, and you oblige. As you are the host, you feel you ought to pay for his food too, so you paid the bill. Now you are a vegetarian, but is it a sin if you pay for your relative's food?


B) You are in a mall shopping. Suddenly you stumbled upon you old pal. He asks you to meet at a Fast-food outlet that sells chicken. As a vegetarian you feel uncomfortable with the place. But to fit in, you buy a drink from the place, so does it mean you support the meat-industry?


C) Imagine you are living in a multi-racial country. You are now planning to have a wedding reception. So you order non-vegetarian food for your non-vegetarians guests and vegetarian food for the vegetarian guests. But by doing so do you accrue sin because you indirectly pay for the meat?


In the above scenarios, can esteemed members of the forum opine how to deal with the situations. Can you describe which of above actions directly/indirectly makes us accrue sin?

Thank you.

Eastern Mind
08 December 2009, 01:43 PM
kshama: From my point of view, vegetarianism is about what you do, not about what others do. I don't see any problem with A or B scenarios. But for C, I'd have a vegetarian wedding. Surely the guests will survive one meal without meat. But let them know in advance so there are no surprises. They can then choose not to come if they wish, letting you know that their meat eating is more important than your friendship, which I would consider a good thing to know. Since a wedding is a religious occasion, I feel it holds more importance than the other two.

This is just my opinion, others will vary.

Aum Namasivaya

kshama
08 December 2009, 01:58 PM
kshama: From my point of view, vegetarianism is about what you do, not about what others do. I don't see any problem with A or B scenarios. But for C, I'd have a vegetarian wedding. Surely the guests will survive one meal without meat. But let them know in advance so there are no surprises. They can then choose not to come if they wish, letting you know that their meat eating is more important than your friendship, which I would consider a good thing to know. Since a wedding is a religious occasion, I feel it holds more importance than the other two.

This is just my opinion, others will vary.

Aum Namasivaya

Vanakkam Eastern Mind Ji,

Thank you for your reply. A spiritual acquiantance of mine said, that bad karma is gained everyday directly or indirectly. I wonder to what extent the bad karma in above situations.

I have attended many Hindu weddings where they serve non-vegetarian foods (in Malaysia). I wonder whether the newlyweds and their immediate family acrrue bad karma if they do that.

mukunda20
08 December 2009, 04:21 PM
Namaste Kshama and EM,
for an individual, any direct or indirect way of harming animals is a Karma(deed) which leads to paapa(sin).its as simple as that.
A belongs to indirect way of harming animals.
B does not affect directly or indirectly any animals(no paapa).
C also belongs to indirect way of harming animals.
the direct way of course occurs when one consumes the animal himself\herself.
please correct me if wrong.
Best Regards,
mukunda

Eastern Mind
08 December 2009, 05:26 PM
Vanakkam Eastern Mind Ji,

Thank you for your reply. A spiritual acquiantance of mine said, that bad karma is gained everyday directly or indirectly. I wonder to what extent the bad karma in above situations.

I have attended many Hindu weddings where they serve non-vegetarian foods (in Malaysia). I wonder whether the newlyweds and their immediate family acrue bad karma if they do that.

In my opinion, there is no such thing as bad karma. Good and bad are western concepts akin to black and white, good versus evil you find in Abrahamic religions. There is only karma, not good, not bad. I prefer to think of it as 'that which leads you closer, and that which takes you further away. The amount you are aware of something also affects its karmic repercussions. A child unaware of the himsa of eating meat in the west accrues far less karma than the adult Hindu who should know better.

If you take mulunda20s point to the extreme, there is no avoiding it, as when you shop at any store owned by a meateater, you are in some way supporting his habit. We breathe microbes all day long. We hit small animals while we walk, drive, or pedal along. So, in a sense, unless we want to be some yogi in a cave somewhere, we practise some secondary version of non-vegetarianism all the time. Personally, I go with my gut.

Aum Namasivaya

kshama
08 December 2009, 05:39 PM
Namaskar Blessed Members,

Thank you for your posts Eastern Mind Ji and Mukunda Ji, the points are noted.

devotee
09 December 2009, 04:22 AM
EM, you have now become an expert on such dilemmas ! :)

OM

ScottMalaysia
09 December 2009, 07:11 AM
A) A relative who you haven't seen for a long time paid a surprise visit. He is not vegetarian and not fond of vegetarian food. He asks you to bring him to a restaurant to eat, and you oblige. As you are the host, you feel you ought to pay for his food too, so you paid the bill. Now you are a vegetarian, but is it a sin if you pay for your relative's food?

First I'd offer to take them to a vegetarian restaurant that serves fake meat. Otherwise, I'd inform them that I'd pay for everything except meat.



B) You are in a mall shopping. Suddenly you stumbled upon you old pal. He asks you to meet at a Fast-food outlet that sells chicken. As a vegetarian you feel uncomfortable with the place. But to fit in, you buy a drink from the place, so does it mean you support the meat-industry? I wouldn't see a problem with this. I buy McDonald's sundaes, as does my wife. They're vegetarian and we don't eat any of their meat products.



C) Imagine you are living in a multi-racial country. You are now planning to have a wedding reception. So you order non-vegetarian food for your non-vegetarians guests and vegetarian food for the vegetarian guests. But by doing so do you accrue sin because you indirectly pay for the meat? I'd get vegetarian catering which would include fake meat. Fake meat tastes almost the same as real meat, and I think that would satisfy all but the most rabid anti-vegetarian meat-eaters.

Paying for meat is the same as eating meat. If you're a Hindu vegetarian you should not pay for meat, even for someone else. Manu-Smriti states:

"He who permits (the slaughter of an animal), he who cuts it up, he who kills it, he who buys or sells (meat), he who cooks it, he who serves it up, and he who eats it, (must all be considered as) the slayers (of the animal)." (Manu Smriti 5:51)

The South Indian classic work Thirukkural by Saint Thiruvalluvar, states the following:







How can he practice true compassion
who eats the flesh of an animal to fatten his own flesh?


Riches cannot be found in the hands of the thriftless,
nor can compassion be found in the hearts of those who eat meat.


He who feasts on a creature's flesh is like he who wields a weapon.
Goodness is never one with the minds of these two.


If you ask, "What is kindness and what is unkindness?"
It is not-killing and killing. Thus, eating flesh is never virtuous.


Life is perpetuated by not eating meat.
The jaws of Hell close on those who do.


If the world did not purchase and consume meat,
no one would slaughter and offer meat for sale.


When a man realizes that meat is the butchered flesh
of another creature, he will abstain from eating it.


Insightful souls who have abandoned the passion to hurt others
will not feed on flesh that life has abandoned.


Greater than a thousand ghee offerings consumed in sacrificial
fires is to not sacrifice and consume any living creature.


All life will press palms together in prayerful adoration
of those who refuse to slaughter or savor meat.

ScottMalaysia
09 December 2009, 07:31 AM
I have attended many Hindu weddings where they serve non-vegetarian foods (in Malaysia). I wonder whether the newlyweds and their immediate family acrrue bad karma if they do that.

Anyone who pays for meat accrues bad karma according to the Laws of Manu (as I quoted above). Many Malaysian Hindus (such as my wife's family) don't know a lot about Hinduism and don't care about ahimsa or killing animals. They'd see having a good time as more important, which would require lots of meat in their tamasic view.

However, there are some Hindus (such as Shaktas) that don't practice vegetarianism and some even go so far as to offer animal sacrifices to the Gods. The South Indian deities Madurai Veeran and Sanggili Karuppan (also called Karuppu Sami) are worshipped with animal sacrifices, as is the Holy Mother in Her forms as Kali and Mariamman. I vehemently disagree with such a practice.

An acquaintance of mine, a Malaysian, told me that he's even seen animal sacrifice happen in Malaysia, so it's not just something that happens in India. One of my colleagues told me that some people have even offered human sacrifices in Malaysia (headless bodies have been found).

I remember seeing a goat at a cave temple dedicated to Kali on the way from Ipoh to Sungai Siput. (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-I__2TfrPHh8mFNjmzeIwg?feat=directlink) The same person who told me about the animal sacrifices said that the goat was most likely there for sacrifice. I'm not sure about that, though (although the temple did do the puja differently from most temples, so it could be Shakta).

kshama
09 December 2009, 09:39 AM
Namaskar Blessed Members,

Thank you Eastern Mind Ji, and ScottMalaysia Ji, your inputs are appreciated.

PaneerTikka
30 December 2009, 04:42 PM
Hi here is my two pence worth & how I see these situations.


A) A relative who you haven't seen for a long time paid a surprise visit. He is not vegetarian and not fond of vegetarian food. He asks you to bring him to a restaurant to eat, and you oblige. As you are the host, you feel you ought to pay for his food too, so you paid the bill. Now you are a vegetarian, but is it a sin if you pay for your relative's food?

You could make it clear to your relative that you do not feel right purchasing dead animals for him to eat. If he still wants to eat you ask him pay for his own meal. Although it may upset your relative you can be sure he won't ask you again !:D

B
) You are in a mall shopping. Suddenly you stumbled upon you old pal. He asks you to meet at a Fast-food outlet that sells chicken. As a vegetarian you feel uncomfortable with the place. But to fit in, you buy a drink from the place, so does it mean you support the meat-industry?

It all depends. If you go to a Fast food restaurant and order their vegetarian option you are letting that company know that there is a demand for vegetarian foods. This can serve to increase companies desire to cater for vegetarians. If more vegetarian options are available at more restaurants then there is a greater chance of other people becoming vegetarian. So it can lead to a change of behaviour from even large corporations. Every vegetarian meal is one less meat meal.


C) Imagine you are living in a multi-racial country. You are now planning to have a wedding reception. So you order non-vegetarian food for your non-vegetarians guests and vegetarian food for the vegetarian guests. But by doing so do you accrue sin because you indirectly pay for the meat?


Why would a principled person want to serve meat ? Because its more important to hear people sing your praises rather than stand by your principles ? One could use this as an opportunity to educate flesh eaters; that you can live in this world without purposely killing animals; that vegetarian food is the best tasting food in the world ; that its best for humans (& the animals) and the environment.

kshama
31 December 2009, 02:07 PM
@Paneer Tikka Ji,
Thank you for your views.

NetiNeti
01 January 2010, 09:59 PM
My wedding was vegetarian even though my wife and I were the only ones who did not eat meat. My basic rule is that I will not pay for flesh or allow it in my house. This includes leather as well. When I buy food for friends I get pizza or pasta, something we can share but does not contain meat. Buying a soda at a place that serves meat is o.k in my opinion. I try not to falter in my beliefs under the pressure of friends and family. When my aunt tries to get me to eat something that I know might have meat in it I just say no and eat bread or salad.

Always diligent! Always strong! The diet wouldn't have meaning if it were easy.

saidevo
13 January 2010, 06:41 AM
Here is an informative thread on how some products supposed to be vegetarian are not and what we can do to avoid them.

staying a vegeterian
http://www.kanchiforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2607

Eastern Mind
13 January 2010, 09:09 AM
Saidevo: Yes that is a great post. Thanks for placing it here. At our temple, we have a poster saying, "Please do not bring yoghurt that contains gelatin."
Fortunately,with growing rates of vegetarianism, its more available now. Still some people are unaware. As far as rennet goes, I investigated it once and ended up talking with the manager of a large cheese factory. He said that although vegetable rennet was available, the company was bound by a ten year contract to an animal rennet supplier, and animal rennet was far cheaper to obtain.

So for those two, I buy gelatin free yoghurt but still eat cheese with rennet in it. Go figure.

But the posts certainly bring up something people may not have been aware of.

Aum Namasivaya

Jivattatva
13 January 2010, 05:12 PM
Pranam

Great posts from all.

I'd like to add something. I personally prefer not to eat outside of my home, if I can help it, excepting from devotee- friends' homes because I know their standards.

Some of you mentioned about buying supposed to be vegetarian foods in commercial places. Just be aware that for example, sundae in McDonalds , it's ice cream I think has egg. Pizza like in Pizza Hut has cheese that has rennet, enzyme from cow's stomach. Even, vegie delight sandwich in Subway maybe 100 percent vegetables in principle but because the server uses his/her hand to prepare meat based sandwich then surely there is contamination. Even supposed vegetarian asian -Thai/Chinese meal etc, may contain animal based stuff, like oyster sauce for example which is commonly used in Chinese as flavouring.

Of course, I'm also lax in this regard and I can not claim I have not ever eaten food that is contaminated because when I'm out I have no other alternative but to eat somewhere if I dont bring my meal. However intention may have a mitigating effect in the entire situation.

Really the best course of action is to eat only at home and at homes of like minded devotee-friends and to bring your own food if you have to be out.

Regards