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kshama
10 December 2009, 04:45 AM
Namaskar Blessed Members of the Forum,

This is another topic that I was thinking for such a long time. There should be a perfect definition of bhakti and blind faith.

1) What distinguishes bhakti from blind faith?
2) How to know whether we have bhakti or blind faith?
3) How to make sure our bhakti is not tainted by blind faith?

Yours answers, thoughts and opinions are welcomed. Thank you.

Ganeshprasad
10 December 2009, 06:08 AM
Pranam Kshama ji


Namaskar Blessed Members of the Forum,

This is another topic that I was thinking for such a long time. There should be a perfect definition of bhakti and blind faith.

i don't think that is possible because in both case one has to have some amount of faith. one can only be true to one self, it would be impossible to judge others.




1) What distinguishes bhakti from blind faith?

Knowledge



2) How to know whether we have bhakti or blind faith?

see that your friends and relatives are not suddenly disturb by your behavior. one should be calm and composed, our action should be conducive to peace and harmony.one becomes free of anxiety and as the love for God is increasing, one's needs become simple as the bhakti improves.



3) How to make sure our bhakti is not tainted by blind faith?


If there is no karuna (mercy) in your action, if your desires and hate is still very strong have a reality check.
have a look is your bhakti to the sweet loving God or the institute.



Jai Shree Krishna

kshama
10 December 2009, 06:24 AM
Namaskar Ganeshprashad Ji and all,

Thank you for the views.

Eastern Mind
10 December 2009, 07:12 AM
Namaskar Blessed Members of the Forum,

This is another topic that I was thinking for such a long time. There should be a perfect definition of bhakti and blind faith.

1) What distinguishes bhakti from blind faith?
2) How to know whether we have bhakti or blind faith?
3) How to make sure our bhakti is not tainted by blind faith?

Yours answers, thoughts and opinions are welcomed. Thank you.

Namaste: Why do we need 'perfect' definitions? Hinduism isn't like that. We each can have our own definition, or no definition at all. Personally, I feel bhakti cultivates 'not so blind' faith. Some go about doing things others would never understand. Undertaking a long walking yatra might be an example. Many would say, "why not just get on a bus?"

I openly admit to having blind faith.

So in the end, the whole idea is so extremely personal. We're not like a line of ants following in each other's footsteps. Some go here. Some go there. Direct line between you and God, really just between you and your innermost being.

Aum Namasivaya

kshama
10 December 2009, 07:29 AM
Namaskar Eastern Mind Ji,

Pleased to hear your views. Well why do we need perfect definitions you said? In my humble opinion, there are many things in metaphysics, religion or spirituality that are ambiguous in nature. Many terms are often misinterpreted, many things are misunderstood, why? Because nobody has the perfect knowlege. Many people, including me, are not highly evolved like the seers or rishis of yore. So we need some precise definitions on few terms so that we apply the knowledge in ourlives. Lack here and there leads to ignorance, and ignorance is not bliss.

Perhaps people have seen time and again, that there are some people who have immense faith, but they are the ones who end up in depression of some sort. Why is that? Is he/she having a bhakti that is tainted by blind faith?

People say pure bhakti is in a person who is of no expectations. So can we say, people who are with expectations from God, aren't having bhakti? These statements confuses people, so that's is why there is a HUGE NEED in everyone to distinguish between bhakti and blind faith. I believe, if we all set our foot in the right path, eventually we will reach the destination.

Eastern Mind
10 December 2009, 08:02 AM
Vanakkam kshama:

Please have a look. (Satay, if you get time, can you change this to the simpler format, 'here' I don't know how.)

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=otj&defl=en&q=define:bhakti&ei=aPwgS9XuFMiHnQe7nLnmCQ&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAcQkAE

The problem is, as I suggested before, Hinduism's vastness. There is no central authority, and probably never will be, fortunately. The link would have been a start only. You are entitled to the opinion that a definition would be useful, even necessary. My opinion differs. I don't come here to argue.

Of course in metaphysics things are ambiguous. This is preposterous to the rationalist view. But if I stand in front of a deity and see Him wink at me as I pray, its just another act of mystic reality to me. Try telling that to my rationalist friend and he says I was either imagining or hallucinating, and of course he has every right to think that, and its corollary that I'm a bit of a basket case. But he could argue all day long with me until he's blue in the face, and he still won't convince me. We both have the right to think the way we do based on our own experiences, or lack of.

Aum Namasivaya

kshama
10 December 2009, 08:28 AM
Namaskar Eastern Mind Ji,

Thank you for your reply. I feel to channel my questions in this forum because I would like to get the correct perspectives in spirituality and many more. There are people of many walks of life here. So everyone's experiences and views and opinions will make way for aspirants,including myself to further equip ourselves with the right knowledge.

No one comes here to argue, a forum is a place where discussions are held. Sometimes people get too emotional, that's natural. I see only positive things in good or bad things.

Eastern Mind
10 December 2009, 08:42 AM
Namaskar Eastern Mind Ji,

Thank you for your reply. I feel to channel my questions in this forum because I would like to get the correct perspectives in spirituality and many more. There are people of many walks of life here. So everyone's experiences and views and opinions will make way for aspirants,including myself to further equip ourselves with the right knowledge.

No one comes here to argue, a forum is a place where discussions are held. Sometimes people get too emotional, that's natural. I see only positive things in good or bad things.

Vanakkam: Yes I agree. That is why most of us come to this forum. Some do come to argue but they usually get sent packing, or become too emotional and leave on their own.

Regarding 'correct perspective' and 'right knowledge', in my opinion, there is no such thing for everyone. Your correct perspective is the one that makes the most sense to you as is mine to me. Even how people come to these personal correct perspectives varies. Some get it from direct experiences. Some get it from scripture. Some get it from a Guru. Some get it from divine mystical insight. So any looking for a universal 'correct' perspective is folly. You need to look at yourself, and decide what works for you. This is just my opinion.

Aum Namasivaya

kshama
10 December 2009, 08:56 AM
Namaskar Eastern Mind Ji,

Thank you for your reply. In my opinion truth is always there, right there infront of our eyes. But visions of people, including mine, are clouded due to many reasons. So the truth seems not there.

You are right there are many ways to know the correct perspectives. Based on that premise that is why many people come to ask questions or discuss in this forum.

Coming back to the topic, let's us hope that people will see the truth somehow here.

LALKAR
10 December 2009, 10:27 AM
Namaste Kashma G,

Why you made two threads with same name ?

kshama
10 December 2009, 10:39 AM
Namaskar Lalkar Ji,

Actually I was creating one thread, and when I finished writing, I found it doubled somehow, perhaps there was some mistakes in sending information or something wrong in my side. I think the other thread will be deleted soon. Sorry for the inconvenience. I regret that.

yajvan
10 December 2009, 10:46 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Regarding faith, as I see it...
śraddhā श्रद्धा faith, unwavering faith; trust , confidence , trustfulness , faithfulness

If we looked to the Chāndogya Upaniṣad, Nārada is instructed by the great muni Sanatkumāra-ji. Nārada wishes to know Brahman in full, in his own being. Sanatkumāra-ji talks of 26 qualities. The 19th quality is śraddhā श्रद्धा faith. He says the following:
When having śraddhā श्रद्धा faith alone, one contemplates. One of no faith never contemplates. Faith therefore is to be known in detail.
Nārada says, Then revered Sir, I would like to know this śraddhā in detail.
Sanatkumāra-ji says the following:
When having steadfastness alone (niṣṭhā¹) one has faith. One of no steadfastness ( lacking niṣṭhā) never has faith. The steadfast alone is endowed with faith. Steadfastness (niṣṭhā) therefore is to be known.

This quality is held in high regard. Yes, but what do you think yajvan? For me, regarding this niṣṭhā or firmness or fixity or śraddhā, I have the following firm view:

That Brahman is all that I see and do not see.
That the existence of HIM (the Universal Self) permeates everything and is every thing, and I have the opportunity to experience/live that.
That I need to go no further then my SELF to realize this.
That one's owns sādhana, or spiritual practice is the tool to realize the truth of this Brahman. Sādhana at its root, dhana¹ धन or ‘treasure’ , is no further then me.
Even though I make the choice to realize the SELF, it is the SELF that reveals it-SELF to it-SELF ( this can be called HIS grace).
It is my resolve (kratu) & delight, or responsibility to set up the conditions for this to occur.praṇām

words

niṣṭha निष्ठ intent on; grounded in; now we can look at this word niṣṭhā:
niṣṭhā निष्ठा- firmness , steadiness , attachment , devotion , application , skill in , familiarity with , certain knowledge ; decisive.
This is rooted in sthā standing , staying , abiding , being situated in , existing or being in i.e. fixity
dhana धन- any valued object

kshama
10 December 2009, 10:53 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Regarding faith, as I see it...
śraddhā श्रद्धा faith, unwavering faith; trust , confidence , trustfulness , faithfulness

If we looked to the Chāndogya Upaniṣad, Nārada is instructed by the great muni Sanatkumāra-ji. Nārada wishes to know Brahman in full, in his own being. Sanatkumāra-ji talks of 26 qualities. The 19th quality is śraddhā श्रद्धा faith. He says the following:
When having śraddhā श्रद्धा faith alone, one contemplates. One of no faith never contemplates. Faith therefore is to be known in detail.
Nārada says, Then revered Sir, I would like to know this śraddhā in detail.
Sanatkumāra-ji says the following:
When having steadfastness alone (niṣṭhā¹) one has faith. One of no steadfastness ( lacking niṣṭhā) never has faith. The steadfast alone is endowed with faith. Steadfastness (niṣṭhā) therefore is to be known.

This quality is held in high regard. Yes, but what do you think yajvan? For me, regarding this niṣṭhā or firmness or fixity or śraddhā, I have the following firm view:

That Brahman is all that I see and do not see.
That the existence of HIM (the Universal Self) permeates everything and is every thing, and I have the opportunity to experience/live that.
That I need to go no further then my SELF to realize this.
That one's owns sādhana, or spiritual practice is the tool to realize the truth of this Brahman. Sādhana at its root, dhana¹ धन or ‘treasure’ is no further then me.
Even though I make the choice to realize the SELF, it is the SELF that reveals it-SELF to it-SELF ( this can be called HIS grace).
It is my resolve (kratu) & delight, or responsibility to set up the conditions for this to occur.praṇām

words

niṣṭha निष्ठ intent on; grounded in; now we can look at this word niṣṭhā:
niṣṭhā निष्ठा- firmness , steadiness , attachment , devotion , application , skill in , familiarity with , certain knowledge ; decisive.
This is rooted in sthā standing , staying , abiding , being situated in , existing or being in i.e. fixity
dhana धन- any valued object


Namaskar Yajvan Ji,

Thank you for your enlightening post. Now I can see the answers to my questions, thank you again.

Ganeshprasad
10 December 2009, 12:20 PM
Pranam Yajvan, Kshama and all

Faith and knowledge goes hand in hand


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Regarding faith, as I see it...
śraddhā श्रद्धा faith, unwavering faith; trust , confidence , trustfulness , faithfulness

If we looked to the Chāndogya Upaniṣad, Nārada is instructed by the great muni Sanatkumāra-ji. Nārada wishes to know Brahman in full, in his own being. Sanatkumāra-ji talks of 26 qualities. The 19th quality is śraddhā श्रद्धा faith. He says the following:
When having śraddhā श्रद्धा faith alone, one contemplates. One of no faith never contemplates. Faith therefore is to be known in detail.
Nārada says, Then revered Sir, I would like to know this śraddhā in detail.

This quality is held in high regard. Yes, but what do you think yajvan? For me, regarding this niṣṭhā or firmness or fixity or śraddhā, I have the following firm view:---

Lord Krishna confirm this in Gita

sraddhaval labhate jnanam
tat-parah samyatendriyah
jnanam labdhva param santim
acirenadhigacchati

ajnas casraddadhanas ca
samsayatma vinasyati
nayam loko 'sti na paro
na sukham samsayatmanah

The one who has faith, and is sincere, and has mastery over the senses, gains this knowledge. Having gained this, one at once attains the supreme peace. (4.39)


But the ignorant, who has no faith and is full of doubt (about the Self), perishes. There is neither this world nor the world beyond nor happiness for the one who doubts. (4.40)

Jai Shree Krishna

yajvan
10 December 2009, 01:39 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté Ganeshprasad,


Faith and knowledge goes hand in hand
Yes, I agree. Just by nārada's words, Then revered Sir, I would like to know this śraddhā in detail, he demonstrates this.

His desire to know and his desire to apply it as śraddhā is keenly offered.

praṇām

isavasya
11 December 2009, 02:39 AM
Namaste kshama ji,






1) What distinguishes bhakti from blind faith?

It's Karma. I personally think god gives merit to one's karma above all other qualities including bhakti and knowledge, and bhakti associated with righteous karma is only pure bhakti. In last few verses of isha upanishad, we see a man on his deathbed,he remembers the good karma he did all his life, and silently prays to lord aditya to bless him with moksha, his acquired good karma sends him to immortal state forever.we see ravana was very knowledgeable, but ultimately his bhakti failed against the truth of shri ram.



2) How to know whether we have bhakti or blind faith?
Personally I know for myself, every moment I fail in my responsibility and stray from dharma, I do get a feeling I am impure and my bhakti itself is impure originating by taking liberty on the great compassion of God.



3) How to make sure our bhakti is not tainted by blind faith?

Having a feeling of self resurrection if we stray from dharma and constantly seeking the true light of god, can be the way.



Here is a nice story on dharma, bhatkti and karma -


In the region named Jambudvipa, there used to rule a king named Shatanika. He was the best among warriors. But he was also very religious. He donated alms and treated his guests well. Every day, the brahmanas received gold and clothes from Shatanika. When Shatanika died, his son Sahasranika became king.
Sahasranika also ruled well and righteously. But he did not donate as much of alms to the brahmanas as his father used to. They took their complaint to the king and said, You do not give as much of alms to us as your father used to. Many brahmanas have already left your kingdom. So will the others, unless you increase the alms you give us.

I have indeed heard that the donation of alms to brahmanas brings punya, replied Sahasranika. I have also heard that all this punya takes one to heaven after death, until the time one has to be born again. Since my father accumulated all this punya by donating alms to brahmanas, he must be in heaven. You are all learned brahmanas. Why don’t you tell me where my father is right now?
The brahmanas could not reply. They had no idea where Shatanika was. But later on, they met a learned sage named Bhargava. Bhargava was so powerful that the brahmanas were sure that he would be able to tell where Shatinika was. They begged Bhargava to help them. Bharagava was not very interested in helping the brahmanas. He was busy meditating and had no desire to waste his time on idle pursuits like finding out where dead people now were. But the brahmanas kept begging him and Bhargava eventually agreed.

The sun god himself led the way and, following the sun god, Bhargava went all the way to Yama’s abode. It was a long distance away.
The sun god led Bhargava straight to where the twenty-eight crores of narakas (hells) were. The wailings of sinners who were being tortured could be heard. Before they could go any further, their way was barred by a brahmana.
Bhargava, said the brahmana, You owe me a coin for services rendered. You have not paid this and I am dead. Pay me the coin and only then can you proceed further.
I am not carrying any coins on me, replied Bhargava. When I return home, I will collect a coin and bring it back to you. Now let me move forward.
Nonsense, said the brahmana. This is hell. Here payments are strictly on a cash basis. There is no question of paying up later. Pay or you shall not proceed. If you do not have any coins, why then , pay me one-sixth of all the punya that you have earned through your mediations.
Bhargava paid what was asked for and edged forward. He was successively stopped by a cowherd, a washerman, a tailor, a priest and a builder. To each of them Bhargava owed some money and they would not let him go until the debts were cleared. In each case, Bhargava parted with one-sixth of his punya so that he was left with none at all.
When these accounts were settled, the sun god led Bhargava to the hell where Shatanika was. Bhargava was bewildered to find such a righteous king as Shatanika in a hell. The king was hung upside down in a pot and was being boiled in oil.

Bhargava asked Shatanika, What is all this? Why are you in hell? You had accumulated a lot of punya through your righteous deeds.
Not really, replied the king. I did donate a lot of alms, especially to brahmanas. But all the money for the alms came from taxing my subjects severely. So it brought no punya at all. Go and tell my son that punya is best acquired by associating with righteous people

The story is from shiv mahapuran and tells a lot.

kshama
11 December 2009, 04:35 AM
Namaskar Isavasya Ji,

Thank you for your answers. The story made me think deep. Thank you again.

Eastern Mind
11 December 2009, 07:54 AM
Faith and knowledge goes hand in hand




Vanakkam Ganeshprasad:

But what is this knowledge you refer to? I think I understand it as the knowledge of the Divine, the Self, but I am not sure.

A quote that stuck with me: "Wisdom is the application of knowledge."

Hopefully that is what you mean.

Aum Namasivaya

Ganeshprasad
11 December 2009, 10:52 AM
Pranam Eastern Mind


Vanakkam Ganeshprasad:

But what is this knowledge you refer to? I think I understand it as the knowledge of the Divine, the Self, but I am not sure.

Yes
Pretty much.

Lord Krishna say’s verily there nothing more purifying then knowledge but I believe it is faith(bhakti) that would finally take us across.




A quote that stuck with me: "Wisdom is the application of knowledge."

Hopefully that is what you mean.

Aum Namasivaya

I like your quote.

i hope you dont mind me saying, knowledge culminates in Bhakti or devotion or worship.

i also like this
Chapter Ten Chankya Pandit
1. One destitute of wealth is not destitute, he is indeed rich (if he is learned); but the man devoid of learning is destitute in every way.

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
12 December 2009, 02:21 AM
Pranam Eastern Mind
Yes
Pretty much.
Lord Krishna say’s verily there nothing more purifying then knowledge but I believe it is faith(bhakti) that would finally take us across.

Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

The following is for your consideration and not for argument sake.



Satapatha Brahamana
10:5:4:16. Regarding this there is this verse--'By knowledge they ascend that (state) where desires have vanished: sacrificial gifts go not thither, nor the fervid practisers of rites without knowledge;'--for, indeed, he who does not know this does not attain to that world either by sacrificial gifts or by devout practices, but only to those who know does that world belong.


Irrespective of scripture, I will try to put forth a few logical points. It is true that without Bhakti, attaining God is not possible. Yet there may be a strong bhakta who has only a partial view of God.

Suppose, KRSNA is all attractive. Now that cannot mean that KRSNA will be attractive to Hindus but not to Christians. So, KRSNA is that which must be attractive to all. Suppose God is auspicious. So, He cannot be auspicious to my group alone. Suppose God is Vishnu, one who has enetered the world. So, He cannot be the one who has only entered in some places and not others. He is Isha and protector cannot mean that the protector will protect only me and my group etc.

Teaching after teaching in our scriptures state that Devas failed till they comprehended the fullness of Prajapati. Even bhakti will require intelligent discrimination, else bhakti may go towards a wrong goal.

The following episode of Indra will indicate why it is required to understand the significance of 101 years of enquiry into sacred knowledge.




Chandogya U.
VIII-vii-1: The Atman which is free from evil, free from old age, free from death, free from sorrow, free from hunger and thirst, whose desire is of the truth, whose resolve is of the truth, he should be sought, him one should desire to understand. He who has found out and who understands that Atman attains all the worlds and all the desires. Thus spoke Prajapati.
VIII-vii-2: Both the gods and the demons heard this and said, ‘Well, let us seek that Atman by seeking which one attains all the worlds and all the desires.’ Then Indra alone from among the gods went out and so did Virochana from among the demons. Then without communicating with each other, they both came into the presence of Prajapati, fuel in hand.
VIII-vii-3: For thirty-two years they lived there the disciplined life of a celibate student of sacred knowledge. Then Prajapati asked them, ‘Desiring what have you been living ?’ They replied, ‘The Atman which is free from evil, free from old age, free from death, free from sorrow, free from hunger and thirst, whose desire is of the truth, whose resolve is of the truth, he should be sought, him one should desire to understand. He who has found out and who understands that Atman attain all the worlds and all the desires – these are known to be the words of your revered self. Desiring that Atman we have been living.’
VIII-vii-4: Prajapati said to them, ‘The person which is seen in the eye is the Atman’. He added, ‘This is the immortal, the fearless. This is Brahman’. ‘But, revered sir, he who is perceived in water and he who in a mirror, which of these is the Atman ?’ It is he himself that is perceived in all these’, replied Prajapati.


VIII-viii-1: ‘Look at yourself in a pan of water and whatever you do not understand of the Atman, tell me that’. Then they looked in a pan of water. Prajapati asked them, ‘What do you see ?’ They replied, ‘Revered sir, we both see the self entirely as we are, the very image, even to the very hairs and nails.’
VIII-viii-2: Then Prajapati said to them, ‘Having become well adorned, well dressed and well groomed, look into the pan of water.’ They too, having become well adorned, well dressed and well groomed, looked into the pan of water. Then Prajapati asked them, ‘What do you see ?’
VIII-viii-3: They replied, ‘Just as we are ourselves, revered sir, well adorned, well dressed and well groomed, even so are both these, revered sir, well adorned, well dressed and well groomed.’ ‘This is the Atman’, said he, ‘this is the immortal, the fearless. This is Brahman’. They both went away satisfied in their hearts.
VIII-viii-4: Then Prajapati looked at them and said, ‘They are going away without having perceived, without having understood the Atman. Whosoever will follow such a doctrine be they gods or demons, they will be foiled.’ Now, Virochana, satisfied in his heart, went to the demons and declared this doctrine to them. ‘Here the (bodily) self alone is to be worshipped, the self is to be attended upon. Here it is only by worshipping the self and attending upon the self that one obtains both the worlds, this as well as the yonder.’
VIII-viii-5: Therefore, even to this day, here people say of one who is not a giver, who has no faith, who does not perform sacrifices, ‘Oh, he is a demon’; for this is the doctrine of the demons. They adorn the body of the deceased with enjoyable things, clothes and ornaments for, by this, they think, they will win the other world.


VIII-ix-1: But Indra, even before reaching the gods, saw this difficulty: ‘Just as this (reflected self) becomes well adorned when this body is well adorned, well dressed when the body is well dressed, well groomed when the body is well groomed, even so this (reflected self) also becomes blind when the body is blind, one-eyed when the body is one-eyed, crippled when the body is crippled, and it perishes when this body perishes. I see no good in this.’
VIII-ix-2: He came back again, fuel in hand. Prajapati asked him, ‘Desiring what, O Indra, have you come back, since you went away satisfied in your heart, along with Virochana ?’ Indra replied, ‘Revered sir, just as this (reflected self) becomes well adorned when this body is well adorned, well dressed when the body is well dressed, well groomed when the body is well groomed, even so this (reflected self) also becomes blind when the body is blind, one-eyed when the body is one-eyed, crippled when the body is crippled, and it perishes when this body perishes. I see no good in this.
VIII-ix-3: ‘So is it indeed, O Indra’, said Prajapati; ‘However, I shall explain this further to you. Live here for another thirty-two years.’ He lived there for another thirty-two years. Then Prajapati said to him:


VIII-x-1-2: Prajapati said, ‘He who moves about in dreams, he is the Atman. He is the immortal, the fearless. He is Brahman’. Indra went away satisfied in his heart. But even before reaching the gods he saw this difficulty: ‘Even though this (dream-self) is not blind when this body is blind, nor one-eyed when the body is slain, nor has running nose and eyes when the body has running nose and eyes, yet it is as if they kill it, as if they chase it, it becomes conscious of pain, as it were, and even weeps, as it were. I see no good in this’.
VIII-x-3-4: He came back again, fuel in hand. Prajapati asked him, ‘Desiring what, O Indra, have you come back, since you went away satisfied in your heart ?’ He replied, ‘Revered sir, even though this self is not blind when this body is blind, nor one-eyed when the body is one-eyed, nor suffers defects from the defects of the body, nor is slain when the body is slain, nor has running nose and eyes, yet it is as if they kill it, as if they chase it, it becomes conscious of pain as it were, and even weeps, as it were. I see no good in this’. ‘So is it indeed, O Indra’, said Prajapati; ‘However, I shall explain this further to you. Live here for another thirty-two years.’ He lived there for another thirty-two years. Then Prajapati said to him:


VIII-xi-1: Prajapati said, ‘He who is fully asleep, composed, serene and knows no dream, he is the Atman. He is the immortal, the fearless. He is Brahman’. Indra went away satisfied in his heart. But even before reaching the gods he saw this difficulty: ‘In truth this one does not know himself now as "I am he", nor indeed these beings. It seems as if he has gone to annihilation. I see no good in this’.
VIII-xi-2: He came back again, fuel in hand. Prajapati asked him, ‘Desiring what, O Indra, have you come back, since you went away satisfied in your heart ?’ He replied, ‘Revered sir, in truth this one does not know himself as "I am he", nor indeed these beings. It seems as if he has gone to annihilation. I see no good in this’.
VIII-xi-3: ‘So is it indeed, O Indra’, said Prajapati; ‘However, I shall explain this further to you and none other than this. Live here for another five years.’ He lived there for another five years. That makes one hundred and one years and so with regard to that, people say thus, ‘Verily, for one hundred and one years Indra lived with Prajapati the disciplined life of a celibate student of sacred knowledge". Then Prajapati said to him:


VIII-xii-1: ‘O Indra, mortal indeed is this body, held by death. But it is the support of this deathless, bodiless Atman. Verily, the embodied self is held by pleasure and pain. Surely, there is no cessation of pleasure and pain for one who is embodied. But pleasure and pain do not indeed touch one who is bodiless.


Note the insistence of Indra to obtain the knowledge of the imperishable Self. Regarding the 101 years of sacred enquiry, the Satapatha says the following:



13:2:1:6
--- But, verily, he who offers the oblations straight away, is liable to fall (pass) right away. He does not go beyond a hundred and one: were he to go beyond a hundred and one, he would deprive the Sacrificer of his vital power. He offers a hundred and one, for man has a life of a hundred (years), and his own self is the one hundred and first:

But that is not to lower the value of a devotion, as:



Svet. U.
V-14: That Supreme Divinity who created both Life and Matter, who is the source of all arts and sciences, who can be intuited by a pure and devoted mind – realizing Him, the blissful the incorporeal and the nameless, one is freed from further embodiment.



IMO, Fervent devotion without application of Buddhi or application of Buddhi without any devotion to the Goal are both incomplete.


Om Namah Shivaya

sambya
12 December 2009, 08:17 AM
once , when swami vivekananda was criticising ' blind faith ' sri ramakrishna retorted back , "Faith is always blind. Has faith an 'eye' ? Why say `blind faith'? Either simply say `faith' or say `Jnana' [knowledge]. If it is not blind it is not proper faith atall "

kshama
12 December 2009, 08:42 AM
once , when swami vivekananda was criticising ' blind faith ' sri ramakrishna retorted back , "Faith is always blind. Has faith an 'eye' ? Why say `blind faith'? Either simply say `faith' or say `Jnana' [knowledge]. If it is not blind it is not proper faith atall "

Respected Sambya Ji,

Thank you for your reply. Few weeks ago, a lot of pondering abt this topic made me contact few of my spiritual acquaintances. Your reply above was the same answer given to me by a Tamil spiritualist. He said to me, faith is blind, and in bhakti too there is blind faith. As I do not have much wisdom like you or blessed members here, I was a bit stunned by the gentleman's remarks.

Perhaps bhakti is hard to understand, as there is no yardstick to measure it and what to say view it. Thank you again.

yajvan
12 December 2009, 10:27 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

atanu offers,


Satapatha Brahamana
10:5:4:16. Regarding this there is this verse--'By knowledge they ascend that (state) where desires have vanished

ganeshprasad offers,


Lord Krishna say’s verily there nothing more purifying then knowledge

Let me ask you ( and others) what knowledge does one ascend or become purified by? Can I expect algebra to do this or literature or the knowledge of biology to perform this ascent and purification process? Many think 'knowledge' is that of 2+2=4 or the distance from New York to Deli - will this purify us?


praṇām

atanu
12 December 2009, 01:13 PM
hariḥ oṁ
Let me ask you ( and others) what knowledge does one ascend or become purified by? Can I expect algebra to do this or literature or the knowledge of biology to perform this ascent and purification process? Many think 'knowledge' is that of 2+2=4 or the distance from New York to Deli - will this purify us?
praṇām

Namaste Yajvanji,

To me the most precise answer is:

.. kenopanishhadi dvitiiyaH khaNDaH ..
pratibodhaviditaM matamamR^itatvaM hi vindate .
aatmanaa vindate viiryaM vidyayaa vindate.amR^itam.h .. 4..

Atman is true viiryaM. Atman Vidya is amritam. Else:

iha chedavediidatha satyamasti
na chedihaavediinmahatii vinashhTiH .
bhuuteshhu bhuuteshhu vichitya dhiiraaH
pretyaasmaallokaadamR^itaa bhavanti .. 5..


II-5. Here if one has realised, then there is accomplishment. Here if one has not realised, then there is utter ruin. Having realised Brahman in all beings, and having withdrawn from this world, the wise become immortal.

Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
13 December 2009, 12:37 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté


.. kenopanishhadi dvitiiyaH khaNDaH ..
pratibodhaviditaM matamamR^itatvaM hi vindate .
aatmanaa vindate viiryaM vidyayaa vindate.amR^itam.h .. 4..

Atman is true viiryaM. Atman Vidya is amritam. Else:

iha chedavediidatha satyamasti
na chedihaavediinmahatii vinashhTiH .
bhuuteshhu bhuuteshhu vichitya dhiiraaH
pretyaasmaallokaadamR^itaa bhavanti .. 5..

II-5. Here if one has realised, then there is accomplishment. Here if one has not realised, then there is utter ruin. Having realised Brahman in all beings, and having withdrawn from this world, the wise become immortal.
Om Namah Shivaya

atanu quotes from the kena upaniṣad, dvitīya khaṇḍa ( 2nd section);
Kena means 'by what?' ' by whom?' , 'how, why?' . It is the first word that is found in this upaniṣad 'kena' after the invocation (śāntipāthaḥ). The first line of this upaniṣad asks, Who impels the mind to alight on its objects?.

the 4th śloka
Brahman is known well (pratibodha+vidita) when it is known as the witness of every state of consciousness, because ( by this knowledge) he attains immortality. By his Self he attains strength, and by knowledge , imortality.

pratibodha is awakening, knowledge + vidita is learnt , perceived , known as 'let it be known by you' - a key word for this śloka. This imortality is not the notion of the body living forever but of the Self that is 'forever'.

Yet this śloka ( and the greater part of the kena upaniṣad) suggests Brahman Is knowledge itself, pure knowledge.

Hence atanu offers the perfect answer to my question:

Let me ask you ( and others) what knowledge does one ascend or become purified by?
And atanu puts icing on the cake with the 5th śloka: ( I use a slightly different translation so it aligns with the 4th śloka just offered):

If one knows ( that or tad , brahman, sattā or satya the true , real , actual , genuine) here ( in this world ) then the true-end ( of all aspirations) is gained; if one knows not ( That ) here, great is the distruction. The wise, seeing the one ātman is all beings rise from the senses ( body identification¹) and become immortal.

atanu has answered my question fully.

praṇām

1. for those that wish to go deeper into this idea, see HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4033 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4033)

kd gupta
14 December 2009, 04:55 AM
Namaskar Blessed Members of the Forum,

This is another topic that I was thinking for such a long time. There should be a perfect definition of bhakti and blind faith.

1) What distinguishes bhakti from blind faith?
2) How to know whether we have bhakti or blind faith?
3) How to make sure our bhakti is not tainted by blind faith?

Yours answers, thoughts and opinions are welcomed. Thank you.
In 21st century there is nothing to be followed blindly, everybody follows technology which is governed by scientific principles , but the pleasures attained are perishable and above all this body is perishable , therefore the fruit of human life is attaining spiritual knowledge and to know about the almighty is devotion , which only gyani can feel and the source of bhakti is bhajan of the parmatma .Gita says….

Matkarmakrinmatparamo madbhaktah sangavarjitah;
Nirvairah sarvabhooteshu yah sa maameti paandava.
He who does all actions for Me, who looks upon Me as the Supreme, who is devoted to
Me, who is free from attachment, who bears enmity towards no creature, he comes to Me, O
Arjuna!
COMMENTARY: This is the essence of the whole teaching of the Gita. He who practises
this teaching attains supreme bliss and immortality. Such a one realises Him and enters into His
Being, becoming completely one with Him. This verse contains the summary of the entire Gita
philosophy.

Ramcharitmanas says…

The path of wisdom is like the edge of a sword : one is apt to fall from it very soon
. He alone who successfully treads it attains to the supreme state of
final emancipation. But this supreme state of final beatitude is most difficult to attain, so
declare the saints as well as the Puranas, Vedas and agamas and nigamas. By worshipping
parmatma, the almighty the same beatitude comes unsolicited even against our will. Water
cannot stay except on land notwithstanding our best efforts; even so, mark you,
the joy of final beatitude cannot stay apart from Devotion to almighty.
Realizing this, the wise devotees of Har or Hari spurn final emancipation and remain
enamoured of Devotion. By practising Devotion ignorance, which is the root of
metempsychosis, is eradicated without any effort or exertion, in the same way as we eat
for our own gratification but the gastric fire digests the food so eaten (without any effort
on our part). What BLIND is there who does not welcome such Devotion to Har or Hari, which
is so easy and delightful at the same time?
Sooner shall butter be churned out of water or oil be extracted from sand than the
ocean of worldly existence be crossed without adoring PARMATMA : this is a conclusion
which cannot be set aside. The Lord can exalt a mosquito to the position of Brahm
and degrade Brahm. to a position lower than that of a mosquito. Realizing this,
the wise discard all doubt and worship TO ALMIGHTY .

yajvan
14 December 2009, 11:09 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté kd gupta,

Wise words are offered here:



Ramcharitmanas says…

The path of wisdom is like the edge of a sword : one is apt to fall from it very soon
. He alone who successfully treads it attains to the supreme state of
final emancipation. But this supreme state of final beatitude is most difficult to attain, so
declare the saints as well as the Puranas, Vedas and agamas and nigamas..

We also find the same in the kaṭhopaniṣad ( 1.3.14)

Svāmi śivānanda translates it thusly:
Arise, awake, having reached the great (teachers) learn ( realize atman). Like the sharp edge of a razor is that path, difficult to cross and hard to tread - thus the wise say.


Svāmī muni nārāyaṇa prāsad says it slightly differently:
Arise! Awake ! Approach the best of masters, do get enlightened.
Difficult to cross and heard to tread like a razor's sharpened edge, is that path; so the wise proclaim.

praṇām

Ganeshprasad
14 December 2009, 03:26 PM
Pranam Yajvan and all


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

atanu offers,

ganeshprasad offers,



Let me ask you ( and others) what knowledge does one ascend or become purified by? Can I expect algebra to do this or literature or the knowledge of biology to perform this ascent and purification process? Many think 'knowledge' is that of 2+2=4 or the distance from New York to Deli - will this purify us?


praṇām

No knowledge is ever lost on us, weather it will help purify anyone will depend on the lesson learnt and its application, only if someone thought this was the end of knowledge then the answers is emphatic no. knowledge of any kind is a remover of ignorance of a particular field. Let me elaborate a bit more putting 2 and 2 together gives me the ability discern complex subject matter. For instance biggest ignorance I can think off is who am I, where do I come from and where will I go.
Since I am asking question who am I can safely deduct I am not this body because it keeps changing from boyhood to Youngman to old age yet within it I remain the same who is it never mind where it come from where would it go? The journey is long destination unknown , now we know the journey between new York and Deli and if we decide to go, there is lot of arrangements to make, hard work and lots of money. Little wonder when the journey is long, destination is vague or clouded in uncertainty is compared to be walking on double edged sword, any moment we can be pulled back by the promise of material enjoyment which is tangible and here, yet by power of discerning I know it ends in pain and it is temporary, this is the value of 2 and 2.

Having said this Lord Krishna say in Gita

raja-vidya raja-guhyam
pavitram idam uttamam
pratyaksavagamam dharmyam
su-sukham kartum avyayam

This knowledge is the king of all knowledge, is the most secret, is very sacred, it can be perceived by instinct, conforms to Dharma, is very easy to practice, and is imperishable. (9.02)

asraddadhanah purusa
dharmasyasya parantapa
aprapya mam nivartante
mrtyu-samsara-vartmani

O Arjuna, those who have no faith in this knowledge follow the cycle of birth and death without attaining Me. (9.03)

Here lord Krishna is giving us the importance of knowledge and faith, both which is required.

He says why and how people worship in various ways but what is this secret knowledge?

Krishna repeats this in chapter 18 also

Fix your mind on Me, be devoted to Me, worship Me, and bow down to Me. Thus uniting yourself with Me, and setting Me as the supreme goal and sole refuge, you shall certainly realize (or come to) Me. (9.34)

Hear again My supreme word, the most secret of all. You are very dear to Me, therefore, I shall tell this for your benefit. (18.64)

Fix your mind on Me, be devoted to Me, offer service to Me, bow down to Me, and you shall certainly reach Me. I promise you because you are very dear to Me. (18.65)

Jai Shree Krishna

yajvan
14 December 2009, 08:58 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté Ganeshprasad,



No knowledge is ever lost on us, weather it will help purify anyone will depend on the lesson learnt and its application, only if someone thought this was the end of knowledge then the answers is emphatic no. knowledge of any kind is a remover of ignorance of a particular field.

You have offered much to think about - thank you. And this has stimulated some thinking on my part to ask a few ideas ( again to ponder some ideas and implications - not to look for any hole in one's POV or contest any issue or promote one view over another).

Let me ask your opinion on this matter then. What if the information/knowledge a person receives is incorrect? That is, it 'freed' one from some limitation, yet that knowledge was just not right. What then? Does this then qualify as knowledge?

Let me give you an example in science. For years it has been the conviction of science that the universe is slowing down. That at some point it will reach a point of equilibrium, then reverse the process and collapse back onto itself.

We find out that, in fact this is absolutely wrong, and the universe is expanding, and going faster in this expansion day-by-day.

What of all those that died previous to this knowledge ( scientists that is) ? They used this as a axiom of truth, yet it was not so.

It seems to me limited knowledge brings limited action and limited results. Yet full knowledge brings full action and purifies accordingly.
This ( for me) I see as the knowledge of brahman and direct experience of it - it is purifying naturally because it is without limitation. This is what I believe the kena upaniṣad is suggesting.


If one knows ( that or tad , brahman, sattā or satya the true , real , actual , genuine) here ( in this world ) then the true-end ( of all aspirations) is gained; if one knows not ( That ) here, great is the destruction. The wise, seeing the one ātman is all beings rise from the senses ( body identification¹) and become immortal.

The 'true end' of all knowledge is realized - total fullness of brahman. My teacher would say again and again - knowledge is for action, action for achievement and achievement brings fulfillment. But fulfillment of what? Fullness of Being ( sattā ). Anything less is fine, yet not fully satisfying to this mind of ours yearning for expansion (ātata).

Do you have any thoughts on this POV offered or a different perspective?

praṇām

Ganeshprasad
15 December 2009, 10:27 AM
Pranam Yajvan


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté Ganeshprasad,



Let me ask your opinion on this matter then. What if the information/knowledge a person receives is incorrect? That is, it 'freed' one from some limitation, yet that knowledge was just not right. What then? Does this then qualify as knowledge?


Yes because through that knowledge one does not make the same mistake again.

Do we not say neti neti, science in their own way are discovering their neti neti.



Let me give you an example in science. For years it has been the conviction of science that the universe is slowing down. That at some point it will reach a point of equilibrium, then reverse the process and collapse back onto itself.
We find out that, in fact this is absolutely wrong, and the universe is expanding, and going faster in this expansion day-by-day.

Let me state another example, Christopher Columbus set out discover India going west, had he carried on he would have eventually reached India, I think I should stop here before I contradict my self. I am in no way promoting material knowledge but only driving a point, so as not to go down the wrong route, these knowledge is only important to a degree.



This ( for me) I see as the knowledge of brahman and direct experience of it - it is purifying naturally because it is without limitation. This is what I believe the kena upaniṣad is suggesting.
Quote:
If one knows ( that or tad , brahman, sattā or satya the true , real , actual , genuine) here ( in this world ) then the true-end ( of all aspirations) is gained; if one knows not ( That ) here, great is the destruction. The wise, seeing the one ātman is all beings rise from the senses ( body identification¹) and become immortal.

The 'true end' of all knowledge is realized - total fullness of brahman. My teacher would say again and again - knowledge is for action, action for achievement and achievement brings fulfillment. But fulfillment of what? Fullness of Being ( sattā ). Anything less is fine, yet not fully satisfying to this mind of ours yearning for expansion (ātata).
Do you have any thoughts on this POV offered or a different perspective?
 
It would be hard to argue any different, our perspective may only differ on our approach to realise this supreme truth.

What does Lord Krishna says upon realisation of Brahman

Absorbed in Brahman, the serene one neither grieves nor desires; becoming impartial to all beings, one obtains My supreme devotion. (18.54)

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
15 December 2009, 09:28 PM
Pranam Yajvan
Absorbed in Brahman, the serene one neither grieves nor desires; becoming impartial to all beings, one obtains My supreme devotion. (18.54)

Jai Shree Krishna

Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

There is no end to these discussions, if the wish is so. Since the very next verse Shri Krishna (as seen by sanjaya) teaches:

18.55 Bhaktyaa maamabhijaanaati yaavaanyashchaasmi tattwatah;
Tato maam tattwato jnaatwaa vishate tadanantaram.
18. 55. By devotion he knows Me in truth, what and who I am; and knowing Me in truth, he forthwith enters into the Supreme.

That is what some Jnanis say: The goal is knowledge of the Atma Tattwa, knowing which all is gained. Then bhaktas show some other verses. It goes on to futility.

Is anything attainable without devotion? Also, is pure devotion attainable without Jnana? Why should one be a desireless bhakta? The ultimate knowledge of atma tattwa is obtained by one pointed devotion but pure bhakti is attained with jnana which burns away sins and desires. The chandogya U. that Yajvanji cited shows how not a single step is unimportant. Can one go to the to the top stair, without stepping on the very lowest stairs?

IMO, we must also know the following:

Kena U.
II-5. Here if one has realised, then there is accomplishment. Here if one has not realised, then there is utter ruin. Having realised Brahman in all beings, and having withdrawn from this world, the wise become immortal.



It is not about which is the lower step or the higher step. It is about the need to know, the need to realise the Atma Tattwa. Hope we all are successful in attaining nishkam bhakti and perfect knowledge -- because these two are not different.


Om Namah Shivaya

Ganeshprasad
16 December 2009, 08:22 AM
Pranam Atanu


Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

There is no end to these discussions, if the wish is so. Since the very next verse Shri Krishna (as seen by sanjaya) teaches:



Why end the discussion my friend, on a bhakti thread what should I put forward? What, have I tried to negate anything?

 


The chandogya U. that Yajvanji cited shows how not a single step is unimportant. Can one go to the to the top stair, without stepping on the very lowest stairs?

isn’t that what I have been saying all along, that no knowledge is lost on us, and Yajvanji has been prodding me to make some sense of my statements.

Now my turn to ask you can one remain on the top if the lowest stair is removed?
 
 


But why do we avoid this?
Kena U.
iha chedavediidatha satyamasti
na chedihaavediinmahatii vinashhTiH .
bhuuteshhu bhuuteshhu vichitya dhiiraaH
pretyaasmaallokaadamR^itaa bhavanti .. 5..
 
II-5. Here if one has realised, then there is accomplishment. Here if one has not realised, then there is utter ruin. Having realised Brahman in all beings, and having withdrawn from this world, the wise become immortal.

What makes you think I am avoiding this, have a look at the sloke I quoted you will find the similarities
Absorbed in Brahman, the serene(the wise) one neither grieves nor desires; becoming impartial to all beings, one obtains My supreme devotion. (18.54)

I don’t know what your idea of immortal is, but a bhakta would shun the idea of mukti in preference to supreme devotion.



It is not about which is the lower step or the higher step. It is about the need to know, the need to realise the Atma Tattwa. Hope we all are successful.

I drink to that, Soma juice hopefully.

To achieve that we have to endeavour, both faith and knowledge is required

Jai Shree Krishna

kd gupta
16 December 2009, 09:35 AM
Mukti is anti vedic..
Dakshnavanto amratam bhajante….rig 1/125/6
This parampad is same as Krsn describes and it is achieved by bhaktas only . If a gyani wants not to come in life , he praises to escape as an eagle from mothers womb, see what Vamdeo rishi says…

Shyeno javsa nirdiyam…..rig4/27/1

atanu
16 December 2009, 10:34 AM
Mukti is anti vedic..
Dakshnavanto amratam bhajante….rig 1/125/6
This parampad is same as Krsn describes and it is achieved by bhaktas only . If a gyani wants not to come in life , he praises to escape as an eagle from mothers womb, see what Vamdeo rishi says…
Shyeno javsa nirdiyam…..rig4/27/1

namaste guptaji,

Mukti is anti vedic? This is your opinion that exemplifies the title of the thread. By your opinion the Vedanta is anti Vedic. Cited Rig Vedic verses do not say what you say. On the other hand;

Satapatha Brahamana
10:5:4:16. Regarding this there is this verse--'By knowledge they ascend that (state) where desires have vanished: sacrificial gifts go not thither, nor the fervid practisers of rites without knowledge;'--for, indeed, he who does not know this does not attain to that world either by sacrificial gifts or by devout practices, but only to those who know does that world belong.

and

Gita
13.13. I will declare that which has to be known, knowing which one attains to immortality, the beginningless supreme Brahman, called neither being nor non-being.

Om Namah Shivaya

devotee
16 December 2009, 11:07 AM
Mukti is anti vedic..


Namaste Gupta ji,

You have just negated all Upanishads which are part of the Vedas.

OM

smaranam
16 December 2009, 04:22 PM
Namaste

As for the main topic of this thread
Faith is step one, Bhakti step ten

Shraddha (faith) is where the aspirant starts
Climbs each next step , BhaktiLatA's various parts
Step one of shraddha is blind is the sense
Its what scientists call hypothesis , till the experiment ends

I am neither a Bhakta, nor a Gyani (LOL)
Not in this life, and perhaps many more
Not sure if i exist at all [ in this role ]
If and when i do, O Madhusudana , i simply belong to You

Could i be His pen ? Could i be His Flute ?
PAyal, Ghunghru, shark-shaped earring, Parachute ?

It doesn't matter, lets hear what this pen has to say

Can you seperate

wool from yarn ?
sattva from milk ?
hay from barn ?
Bhakti from GyAn ?

Is an infant aware of any existence
Seperate from the Mother ?
Does she know the words "individual" "ego" and "I"
Any more than stars in the sky ?

Who says the Jnanis never see the Lord ?
Who says in the Jnani's heart
Bhakti , Love does not strike a chord ?
Who says the Chataka bird doesn't sing ?
Thank You BhagvAn, for E V E R Y T H I N G

Gratitude expressed will never be enough
He carries bhaktas on shoulders over sand, rocks, rough
Walks by their side all along like a MAdhava vine,
Making "footprints in the sands of time" (this is a title of a famous poem)

But do follow what your Acharyas say
It will make the Lord happy anyway
Do not leave Bhakti alone with GyAn
Lest Bhakti gives GyAn a glance sidelong
Disaster! will be the theme of that song :)

All glories to the devotees who sing
ShyAmSundar's glories , bliss it does bring
It also brings GyAn, by the way
Bhagvad Gita Chapter 10 verse 10, 11
What do they say ?


BG 10.10: To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.
BG 10.11: To show them special mercy, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.

What is this Highest knowledge ? Its the axiom of Truth
accepting or rejecting Mukti is simply an illusiory pursuit
Liberation is just a symptom, a side effect of the knowledge pursuit
Which , once started cannot be stopped
River starts flowing, cannot be mopped

Mukti is not something to be obtained,
It is the realization of the Absolute Truth

The ever compassionate Supreme Lord
Provides various ways that cater to the variety of souls
Makes sure they all go to Him - Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagvAn
Eventually, in one way or ALL.




~ ~

Hari Om

devotee
16 December 2009, 08:50 PM
Namaste Atanu,



Is anything attainable without devotion? Also, is pure devotion attainable without Jnana? Why should one be a desireless bhakta? The ultimate knowledge of atma tattwa is obtained by one pointed devotion but pure bhakti is attained with jnana which burns away sins and desires.

Hope we all are successful in attaining nishkam bhakti and perfect knowledge -- because these two are not different.


Very well said. The devotion and Jnana are never mutually exclusive. The supplement each other. The first step is Bhakti & that leads to Jnana. How many Bhaktaas this world has seen who can be compared to Ramkrishna Paramhansa ? Did he stop at Bhakti ? Why did he choose the path to jnana under the guidance of Totapuri ( from Puri order of Sankarachaaryaa) ? The image of goddess Kaali was everything to him & he never wanted anything more than his devotion to Mother Goddess ..... why was he forced to break that same image into pieces to attain Nirvikalpa Samaadhi ?

OM

kd gupta
16 December 2009, 09:35 PM
Namaste Atanuji and Devoteeji
I know how to extract the gyan from gyanis and this is my habit to negate the question and this thread has actually been started from the negativity adding a word Blind .
I take the shoes of gyanis on my head as my beloved Hanumanji says to Rama…Trahi trahi bhagwant , so how can I say against Vedas ,Vedantas etc. when I am going to know from learned members of this Forum about Bhakti and Mukti ?
Pl. carry on….

kd gupta
16 December 2009, 09:55 PM
[quote=smaranam;36632]Namaste

As for the main topic of this thread
Faith is step one, Bhakti step ten

Shraddha (faith) is where the aspirant starts
Climbs each next step , BhaktiLatA's various parts
Step one of shraddha is blind is the sense
Its what scientists call hypothesis , till the experiment ends

I am neither a Bhakta, nor a Gyani (LOL)
Not in this life, and perhaps many more
Not sure if i exist at all [ in this role ]
If and when i do, O Madhusudana , i simply belong to You

Could i be His pen ? Could i be His Flute ?
PAyal, Ghunghru, shark-shaped earring, Parachute ?

It doesn't matter, lets hear what this pen has to say

Can you seperate

wool from yarn ?
sattva from milk ?
hay from barn ?
Bhakti from GyAn ?

Is an infant aware of any existence
Seperate from the Mother ?
Does she know the words "individual" "ego" and "I"
Any more than stars in the sky ?

Who says the Jnanis never see the Lord ?
Who says in the Jnani's heart
Bhakti , Love does not strike a chord ?
Who says the Chataka bird doesn't sing ?
Thank You BhagvAn, for E V E R Y T H I N G

Gratitude expressed will never be enough
He carries bhaktas on shoulders over sand, rocks, rough
Walks by their side all along like a MAdhava vine,
Making "footprints in the sands of time" (this is a title of a famous poem)

But do follow what your Acharyas say
It will make the Lord happy anyway
Do not leave Bhakti alone with GyAn
Lest Bhakti gives GyAn a glance sidelong
Disaster! will be the theme of that song :)

All glories to the devotees who sing
ShyAmSundar's glories , bliss it does bring
It also brings GyAn, by the way
Bhagvad Gita Chapter 10 verse 10, 11
What do they say ?


BG 10.10: To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.
BG 10.11: To show them special mercy, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.

What is this Highest knowledge ? Its the axiom of Truth
accepting or rejecting Mukti is simply an illusiory pursuit
Liberation is just a symptom, a side effect of the knowledge pursuit
Which , once started cannot be stopped
River starts flowing, cannot be mopped

Mukti is not something to be obtained,
It is the realization of the Absolute Truth

The ever compassionate Supreme Lord
Provides various ways that cater to the variety of souls
Makes sure they all go to Him - Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagvAn
Eventually, in one way or ALL.



My many Pranams to you Smaranamji
Where could I get such a valuable thought as you described , thanks a lot . I know that Mukti is a death to Bhakti and therefore I take Mukti as Imaginary .

atanu
16 December 2009, 11:28 PM
Namaste friends,

Feeling bhakti for mango (taken here as God) is both knowing (experiencing ) and feeling (bhakti). That knowing and that feeling cannot be explained by words to another. Yet, Shri Krishna Himself teaches:

18.55 Bhaktyaa maamabhijaanaati yaavaanyashchaasmi tattwatah; Tato maam tattwato jnaatwaa vishate tadanantaram.
18. 55. By devotion he knows Me in truth, what and who I am; and knowing Me in truth, he forthwith enters into the Supreme.
So, sensually enjoying Mango and knowing Mango as tadanantaram are different. Then about freedom (nirvanam):


BG: 5.26 Kaamakrodhaviyuktaanaam yateenaam yatachetasaam;
Abhito brahma nirvaanam vartate viditaatmanaam.
BG: 5.26 Absolute freedom exists on all sides for those self-controlled ascetics who are free from desire and anger, who have controlled their thoughts and who have known the Self.

Absolute freedom requires knowledge of the Self and absolute freedom means the freedom to taste the mango also. No one bars a Jnani- a knower of the Self, from tasting the mango.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
16 December 2009, 11:38 PM
---- I know that Mukti is a death to Bhakti and therefore I take Mukti as Imaginary

Namaste KDji,

That indeed is wisdom, if you believe it. Yet nirvanam is not anti vedic.

Om

smaranam
17 December 2009, 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kd gupta
---- I know that Mukti is a death to Bhakti and therefore I take Mukti as Imaginary

Namaste KDji,

That indeed is wisdom, if you believe it. Yet nirvanam is not anti vedic.

Om

Thank You AtanuJi. Your posts # 40 and 41, and also the ones before that,
help bring that poem in the correct perspective, and clarifies everything.

Krshna uses the word 'BRAHMAN-BHUTA' for a praiseworthy state of the Yogi, so Nirvana cannot be disapproved. Otherwise why would the Vedas , Vedanta and Gita talk about it ?

So then this post of mine is unnecessary, but just to make sure the poem is not misunderstood -

Pranam Guptaji,
Thank you for your kind words, but i hope that poem was not misleading - not to you, but possibly to other readers who may be new to Sanatan Dharma.

The message was not that Mukti is death of Bhakti.
It was saying that once the pursuit of Jnana begins, Mukti is a result.

Many times , devotees say "I reject Mukti" . I would look at that as a figurative expression, a devotional sentiment - but who is the sadhaka to choose to accept or reject anything , that God gives graciously ?

Technically speaking, is there such a choice ? Unless the devotee is free of vAsanA, icchA, there cannot be pure devotion anyway - as AtanuJi and others have pointed out.

Also, those lines

"Do not leave Bhakti alone with GyAn
Lest Bhakti gives GyAn a glance sidelong
Disaster! will be the theme of that song :) "

were not implying that Bhakti will die, on the contrary she will fall in love with GyAn, and the two will be together - perhaps 'bad news' for some proponents of bhakti :)


I like this -

Then about freedom (nirvanam):

Absolute freedom requires knowledge of the Self and absolute freedom means the freedom to taste the mango also. No one bars a Jnani- a knower of the Self, from tasting the mango.

Om Namah Shivaya


Hari Om

kd gupta
17 December 2009, 08:23 AM
Namaste friends,

Feeling bhakti for mango (taken here as God) is both knowing (experiencing ) and feeling (bhakti). That knowing and that feeling cannot be explained by words to another. Yet, Shri Krishna Himself teaches:

So, sensually enjoying Mango and knowing Mango as tadanantaram are different. Then about freedom (nirvanam):


Absolute freedom requires knowledge of the Self and absolute freedom means the freedom to taste the mango also. No one bars a Jnani- a knower of the Self, from tasting the mango.

Om Namah Shivaya

Thank you Atanuji
That is just very nice , but here the serial is different

Kavim puraanamanushaasitaaram
Anoraneeyaamsam anusmaredyah;
Sarvasya dhaataaram achintyaroopam
Aadityavarnam tamasah parastaat.
Whosoever meditates on the Omniscient, the Ancient, the ruler (of the whole world),
minuter than an atom, the supporter of all, of inconceivable form, effulgent like the sun and beyond
the darkness of ignorance, AND IS gyani
Prayaanakaale manasaachalena
Bhaktyaa yukto yogabalena chaiva;
Bhruvormadhye praanamaaveshya samyak
Sa tam param purusham upaiti divyam.
At the time of death, with unshaken mind, endowed with DEVOTION and by the power of
Yoga, fixing the whole life-breath in the middle of the two eyebrows, he reaches that resplendent
Supreme Person.

Ganeshprasad
17 December 2009, 10:40 AM
Pranam Smaranam

What a nice name followed by Kirtanam



were not implying that Bhakti will die, on the contrary she will fall in love with GyAn, and the two will be together - perhaps 'bad news' for some proponents of bhakti :)
Hari Om

You forget one thing, bhakti is allready in love with his/her beloved,Udhav found that the hard way.

Jai Shree Krishna

smaranam
17 December 2009, 12:33 PM
bhakti is already in love with his/her beloved,Udhav found that the hard way.

Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam GaneshPrasadji,

Yes, one cannot seperate wool from yarn, sattva from milk, Bhakti fron GyAn.

That paragraph in the poem we are refering to, is not my perspective.
It merely presents the perspective of some followers of Bhakti Yoga, where Jnana (GyAn) is defined as knowledge of [nirguna] Brahman' .

It was not meant to be taken literally.

I have heard bhaktas say - keep bhakti free from Jnana.

However, i like what Sant Dnyaneshwar has to say -

[B]Bhagvad Gita 7.16 Chaturvidhaa bhajante maam janaah sukritino'rjuna;
Aarto jijnaasurartharthee jnaanee cha bharatarshabha.

Four kinds of virtuous men worship Me, O Arjuna! They are the distressed, the seeker of knowledge, the seeker of wealth, and the wise(jnani), O lord of the Bharatas!

This is described beautifully in his 'Dnyaneshwari' - commentary on the Gita (Bhavarth Deepika).

Chapter 12 : Acc. to St. Dnyaneshwar, Krshna says :

That Jnani Bhakta is most dear to Me,

1. He is a Jnani because He knows Brahman (Me), and considers the VAsudevmay Universe as his Self. He sees everything as Vasudeva and Vasudevamay.

2. He is a Bhakta because he has 'anuraag' towards Me.

3. He is a Yogi because he is focused on the Self, AtmA.



Jai Sri Krshna


Hari Om

Ganeshprasad
17 December 2009, 03:42 PM
Pranam Smaranam ji

how very wonderful, you are welcome to bask in the glories of gyan.

Accept you are presupposing gyan to be only of one verity and that off advaita.

Udhav ji is a gyani bhakta of Krishna who went to Vraja to pacify the Gopis yet he came back saying thus to them

SB 10.47.27: You have rightfully claimed the privilege of unalloyed love for the transcendental Lord, O most glorious gopīs. Indeed, by exhibiting your love for Kṛṣṇa in separation from Him, you have shown me great mercy.

and he also said,

SB 10.47.58: [Uddhava sang:] Among all persons on earth, these cowherd women alone have actually perfected their embodied lives, for they have achieved the perfection of unalloyed love for Lord Govinda. Their pure love is hankered after by those who fear material existence, by great sages, and by ourselves as well. For one who has tasted the narrations of the infinite Lord, what is the use of taking birth as a high-class brāhmaṇa, or even as Lord Brahmā himself?

Jai Shree Krishna

smaranam
17 December 2009, 05:54 PM
Accept you are presupposing gyan to be only of one verity and that off advaita.

Udhav ji is a gyani bhakta of Krishna who went to Vraja to pacify the Gopis

Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam

Of Course.

Uddhav's Jnana was Advaitic Brahman Jnana, so was Dnyaneshwara's.
Unlike St. Dnyaneshwar, he was very much missing the Bhakti component (or it was dormant), so the Lord sent him to the gopis. (GyAn tiharo adho adhuro)

GOPIS said:
Tan ShyAm, Man ShyAm, ShyAm hi hamaro dhan hai
ShyAm Hiye ShyAm piye ShyAm bin nahi jiye
Yog kaun rakhen ? Yahan to rome rome ShyAm hai

Do you see the hidden Jnana in this one-pointed Bhakti ?

Who were the Gopis ?

- Personified Vedas
- Realized Jnani rshis whom Sri RAm promised, that they can be His Gopis when He comes back as Krshna.
- Dev Kanyas et. all

-----------

I was only clarifying my poem, GaneshPrasadji. My intention is not to influence anyone into anything. I really believe that the Lord has something chalked out for each of us at each point.
He directed Uddhav to the Gopis, then also summed up Jnana in Uddhav Gita (11th Canto of the BhAgvat).

What i may have written is driven partly by personal experience , and not to impose views on others.

This is a wonderful conversation we are having, but i don't want to get into any more discussions on this thread.


Jai Sri Krshna

kd gupta
17 December 2009, 11:47 PM
I have heard bhaktas say - keep bhakti free from [Brahman-]Jnana.

EXACTLY , you are right Smaranamji , I suppose you are PH ji , anyway.
I have travelled 57 yrs. long journey and now I dont want to get down and boarding the same train again .

devotee
18 December 2009, 01:09 AM
Yog kaun rakhen ? Yahan to rome rome ShyAm hai

That is perfect Bhakti ! Is it too different from Advaita ?

OM

smaranam
18 December 2009, 09:44 AM
Pranam


Tan ShyAm, Man ShyAm, ShyAm hi hamaro dhan hai
ShyAm Hiye ShyAm piye ShyAm bin nahi jiye
Yog kaun rakhen ? Yahan to rome rome ShyAm hai

- Gopis of Vrndavan


That is perfect Bhakti ! Is it too different from Advaita ?

OM

I cannot see much difference either. I said hidden Jnana (Advaita), but it is not even hidden.


"Para Bhakti and Jnana are ONE" - Swami Shivananda (Divine Life Society) (By Jnana he means Advaita Jnana)


Hari Om

smaranam
18 December 2009, 09:51 AM
I suppose you are PH ji

Pranam Guptaji,

No i am not PH ji or anyone you may have known. I am also younger in all possible ways - material and spiritual.

Please bless me

smaranam

atanu
18 December 2009, 10:11 AM
Thank you Atanuji
That is just very nice , but here the serial is different

Namaste guptaji

There are many serials but the ending is same. A true bhakta has no questions and a jnani has no questions. I see no bhakta here but only jigyasus. Jigyasa is auspicious, if the intention is to know Brahman.

Om Namah Shivaya

kd gupta
18 December 2009, 10:27 AM
Namaste guptaji

There are many serials but the ending is same. A true bhakta has no questions and a jnani has no questions. I see no bhakta here but only jigyasus. Jigyasa is auspicious, if the intention is to know Brahman.

Om Namah Shivaya
As you have seen above Smaranamji and me both want your blessings , pl.

Ganeshprasad
18 December 2009, 12:48 PM
Pranam Smaranam ji




This is a wonderful conversation we are having, but i don't want to get into any more discussions on this thread.


Fair enough



Who were the Gopis ?

- Personified Vedas
- Realized Jnani rshis whom Sri RAm promised, that they can be His Gopis when He comes back as Krshna.
- Dev Kanyas et. all

only one question to be asked, would the Gopies substitute Lord Krishna for some abstract formless entity.

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad
18 December 2009, 12:54 PM
Pranam Atanu ji


guptaji

There are many serials but the ending is same. A true bhakta has no questions and a jnani has no questions. I see no bhakta here but only jigyasus. Jigyasa is auspicious, if the intention is to know Brahman.

Om Namah Shivaya

and for that there is no loss

nehabhikrama-naso 'sti
pratyavayo na vidyate
svalpam apy asya dharmasya
trayate mahato bhayat

In this endeavor, no effort is ever lost, and there is no harm. Even a little practice of this discipline protects one from great fear (2.40)

Jai Shree Krishna

kd gupta
18 December 2009, 10:59 PM
Pranam Smaranam ji



Fair enough



only one question to be asked, would the Gopies substitute Lord Krishna for some abstract formless entity.

Jai Shree Krishna
Namaste Ganesh pdji
Good jigyasa but I found this solution…
Tadejati tannejati taddure taddwintake , tadantarasya sarvasya tadu sarvasasyasya bahyatah…yaj5/40 . gita explains…
Bahirantashcha bhootaanaam acharam charameva cha;
Sookshmatwaat tadavijneyam doorastham chaantike cha tat.

Without and within (all) beings, the unmoving and also the moving; because of His
subtlety, unknowable; and near and far away is That.

And how to find him…

Naa ham vedairna tapasaa na daanena na chejyayaa;
Shakya evamvidho drashtum drishtavaanasi maam yathaa.
Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor by sacrifice, can I be seen in this
form as thou hast seen Me (so easily).
Bhaktyaa twananyayaa shakyam aham evamvidho’rjuna;
Jnaatum drashtum cha tattwena praveshtum cha parantapa.
. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known and seen in reality and also
entered into, O Arjuna!

atanu
19 December 2009, 02:24 AM
-----
And how to find him…
Naa ham vedairna tapasaa na daanena na chejyayaa;
Shakya evamvidho drashtum drishtavaanasi maam yathaa.
Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor by sacrifice, can I be seen in this
form as thou hast seen Me (so easily).
Bhaktyaa twananyayaa shakyam aham evamvidho’rjuna;
Jnaatum drashtum cha tattwena praveshtum cha parantapa.
. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known and seen in reality and also
entered into, O Arjuna!

Namaste guptaji,

And how do you suppose the single-minded devotion arise in wordly minded like us -- who despite all verbal claims are not single minded? Can single minded concentration-devotion arise without discrimination between sat and asat?

“Noble indeed are all these; but I deem the wise man as My very Self; for, steadfast in mind, he is established in Me alone as the supreme goal”—VII.18.

I hope that people will see the difference between blind faith and true bhakti.

Om Namah Shivaya

kd gupta
19 December 2009, 03:35 AM
Yes Atanuji , you are right , I agree .

kd gupta
19 December 2009, 06:36 AM
Pl. listen to this bhajan...

http://www.youtube.com/v/HLwo0seMalc&hl=en_US&fs=1

smaranam
19 December 2009, 04:42 PM
:) Lovely Bhajan ! for lack of any words. Thank You.

smaranam
20 December 2009, 04:08 PM
only one question to be asked, would the Gopies substitute Lord Krishna for some abstract formless entity.

Jai Shree Krishna

1. Thank You for making me contemplate.

2. Now i know why the Gopis were better off in seperation of Krshna.
This is also explained by Krshna during reunion with the Gopis at Kurukshetra (? solar eclipse) after many yrs, as Dwarkadheesh. "I pervade all, and am always with you". Something they could not appreciate when Krshna was in front of them in Gokul-Vrndavan.

3. The BhAgvat is more esoteric than it seems. Krshna is not just a dark cowherd lad , Gopis are not adolescent girls. They don't physically run into the woods on hearing His flute (of the Anhat sound - Shabda Brahman). Their minds and AtmA do. That is why their parents or husbands think they are home.
Its about the circle of AtmA finding its centre , ParamAtmA. Someone else will shed better light on this.

4. The answer to yr qn is evident in the Bhagavad Gita , if the sanskrt is read carefully.

5. In addition, VishnusahasranAma ( Thousand Names of Vishnu - Padma Purana) gives all clues.
( Guruji points out that the first word in VishnusahasranAma is Vishwam. He is Vishwam (Universe) , and the One who pervades it entirely, hence Vishnu. )

Translation by Swami Krshnanada.
http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/vishnu/vishnu_1.html

Here are only some of His beautiful names.

Vishvam: The all or the Universe. 

Vishnu: He who pervades every thing.

Bhuta-bhavya-bhavat-prabhuh: The one who is the master and beyond the past, present and the future.

Bhutakrud: The creator and destroyer of all existences in the universe.

Bhutabhrud: One who supports or sustains or governs the universe.

Bhava: Pure existence.

Bhutatma: The essence of all beings.
Bhuta-bhavanah: He who originates and develops all Elements.
Putatma: One whose nature is purity/who is purity

Paramatma: He who is the supreme one and the Atman.

Muktanam parama gatih: The highest goal of the liberated ones.

Avyayah: One for whom there is no decay.

Purusha: One who abides in the body or pura.

Sakshi: One who witnesses everything

Kshetraj'na: The knower of the field or body.

Akshara: He who is without destruction.
Yoga: One attainable through Yoga.

Purushottamah: The greatest among all Purushas.
sarvah: The omniscient source of all existence.

Sivah: One pure.

Sthanu: One who is steady, immovable and changeless.

Bhutadi: Source of all elements or existing things.

Brahma: One who creates everything as the creator Brahma.


Brahman: Being big expanding, the Lord who is known from indications like Satya (Truth), is called Brahman. Or Brahma is Truth, Knowledge and Infinity!


Svayambhuh: One who exists by Himself, uncaused by any other.

Shambhu: One who bestows happiness on devotees.

Aditya: The golden-hued person in the sun's orb.

Mahasvanah: One from whom comes the great sound - the Veda.

Anandi-nidhana: The one existence that has neither birth nor death.

Dhata: One who is the support of the universe.

Vidhata: He who generates Karmas and their fruits.

Dhaturuttamah: The ultimate support of every thing.
Aprameya: One who is not measurable or understandable by any of the accepted means of knowledge like sense, perception, inference etc.

Hrishikesah: The master of the senses or He under whose control the senses subsist.

Padma-nabha: He in whose navel (nabhi) the lotus (padma), the source of the universe, stands.

Amara-prabhuh: The master of Amaras or the deathless ones, i.e. the Devas.

Visvakarma: He whose Karma (work) has resulted in all that exists (Vishvam) or He whose power of creation is unique and wonderful.

Manu: He who thinks.

Stvashta: He who makes all beings shrunken (Tanukarana) at the time of cosmic dissolution.

Sthavishtah: He who excels in everything in bulk or substantiality.

Sthaviro-dhruvah: Eternal One, being the most ancient. It is taken as a single phrase, the name along with its qualification.

....... it goes on .........
Its wonderful to meditate on these names.

============

5. Gopis may think -

OF [belong to ] Krshna
made BY Krshna
live FOR Krshna
walk INTO the heart of Krshna
fill the heart WITH Krshna
make Pradakshina (circumbulation) AROUND Krshna
hand self OVER TO Krshna
EAT food = PUrna-Brahman' = KRshna
DRINK dravya (liquid) = Krshna
sleep IN the bed of Supersoul = Krshna (shushupti - deep sleep)
think ABOUT Krshna (jagrat - waking)
dream ABOUT Krshna (swapna - dream state)
meditate in trance ON Krshna (turya - consciousness)

ShyAm VyAkran (grammar)
ShyAm Sangeet (music)
ShyAm KavitA (poetry)
.....


6.


“Noble indeed are all these; but I deem the wise man as My very Self; for, steadfast in mind, he is established in Me alone as the supreme goal”—VII.18.

Ganeshprasad
27 December 2009, 06:56 AM
Pranam Smaranam ji


1. Thank You for making me contemplate.

.

I am glad to be of any help but I cant fail to notice instead of answering the question you have put your advaita glasses and seen everything in that light, that is fine after all we are blinded by our own kind of love for that supreme.



2. Now i know why the Gopis were better off in seperation of Krshna.
This is also explained by Krshna during reunion with the Gopis at Kurukshetra (? solar eclipse) after many yrs, as Dwarkadheesh. "I pervade all, and am always with you". Something they could not appreciate when Krshna was in front of them in Gokul-Vrndavan.

Lets not speculate, we are not capable or at least I am not able comprehend that sweet love they held for their Makhan chor.



3. The BhAgvat is more esoteric than it seems. Krshna is not just a dark cowherd lad , Gopis are not adolescent girls. They don't physically run into the woods on hearing His flute (of the Anhat sound - Shabda Brahman). Their minds and AtmA do. That is why their parents or husbands think they are home.
Its about the circle of AtmA finding its centre , ParamAtmA. Someone else will shed better light on this.

Here I am afraid we part company, I can not reduce the Rasa lila as a mere metaphor.
What was the need of great sages to take birth as Gopis as you quoted
Who were the Gopis ?
- Personified Vedas
- Realized Jnani rshis whom Sri RAm promised, that they can be His Gopis when He comes back as Krshna.
- Dev Kanyas et. All


These were the Brahm Jnanis who chose to take part in Rasa Lial, I rest my case.
 
 
 
 
 


4. The answer to yr qn is evident in the Bhagavad Gita , if the sanskrt is read carefully.

Chapter 15. The Yoga of the Supreme Person
TEXT 3-4
na rupam asyeha tathopalabhyate
nanto na cadir na ca sampratistha
asvattham enam su-virudha-mulam
asanga-sastrena drdhena chittva

tatah padam tat parimargitavyam
yasmin gata na nivartanti bhuyah
tam eva cadyam purusam prapadye
yatah pravrttih prasrta purani

Just contemplate no need to speculate or translation or comentry
Jai Shree Krishna

smaranam
27 December 2009, 05:49 PM
Pranam GaneshPrasad ji



you have put your advaita glasses and seen everything in that light, that is fine after all we are blinded by our own kind of love for that supreme.
Yes, indeed! Blinded by the brightness of knowledge and basking in the warmth of love , that radiate from the heart of that Infinite One. Brightness and warmth cannot be seperated out.
But your kind of love for the Supreme is very nice too :)



Lets not speculate, we are not capable or at least I am not able comprehend that sweet love they held for their Makhan chor.

That is not my speculation, but its given in either the BhAgvat itself or someone's commentary/purport , that Gopis could not appreciate the philosophical side of Krshna when He was present. They loved Him like no other, played with Him, teased Him, called Him names, as a dear childhood friend. Hence, in seperation they were in rapt Samadhi of that Divine. At least Radharani was.
Till recently, i would shudder at the idea of viraha-bhakti but it can be understood in philosophical terms, no less.




Here I am afraid we part company, I can not reduce the Rasa lila as a mere metaphor.
What was the need of great sages to take birth as Gopis as you quoted
Who were the Gopis ?
- Personified Vedas
- Realized Jnani rshis whom Sri RAm promised, that they can be His Gopis when He comes back as Krshna.
- Dev Kanyas et. All

These were the Brahm Jnanis who chose to take part in Rasa Lial, I rest my case.

The RAs Leela is not a metaphor, but its about the Gopis' minds and AtmA.
The RAs went on forever, and one night of RAs was Lord BrahmA's night (thousands or yrs) and not earth-night of 8 hrs. The RAs is eternal.

This can happen with AtmA or subtle bodies not gross.
( Srshti ke kan kan me iska AbhAs hai, yahi MahArAsa hai )
 


Chapter 15. The Yoga of the Supreme Person
TEXT 3-4
na rupam asyeha tathopalabhyate
nanto na cadir na ca sampratistha
asvattham enam su-virudha-mulam
asanga-sastrena drdhena chittva

tatah padam tat parimargitavyam
yasmin gata na nivartanti bhuyah
tam eva cadyam purusam prapadye
yatah pravrttih prasrta purani

Just contemplate no need to speculate or translation or comentry
Jai Shree Krishna

And surrender (sharaNAgati) to that Adya Purusha takes different forms, can mean different things to different people - as prearranged by the Divine.


Our conversation only confirms that there are various ways to the Divine.
It was nice talking to you.
I get the feeling you were trying to warn me against 'being blinded by advaita' and for that I thank you for taking the time and effort, as a friend would do that. :)

Jai Sri Krshna

kd gupta
27 December 2009, 11:40 PM
Namaste guptaji,

And how do you suppose the single-minded devotion arise in wordly minded like us -- who despite all verbal claims are not single minded? Can single minded concentration-devotion arise without discrimination between sat and asat?

“Noble indeed are all these; but I deem the wise man as My very Self; for, steadfast in mind, he is established in Me alone as the supreme goal”—VII.18.

I hope that people will see the difference between blind faith and true bhakti.

Om Namah Shivaya
Namaste Atanuji

Your decent post may not be missed , misunderstood , I am afraid of .

Goswamiji hints….
Ram bhalu kapi katak batora , setu hetu shram kin na thora .
Naam let bhavsindhu sukhanhi …..

How that Rama can be the Parabrahma ?
Vedas say Vishnu has done a great effort to cross three lokas , so how can he be the considered as a super soul ?

Vedas again say …

He who was before everything , created everything incl. Vishnu rudra rama krsn , and
Yashchidapo…..Kasme devay….vidhem . rig.10th mandalam

So who is except him, that almighty , to be worshipped .

Means still Advaita is not well understood .
AUM shantih shantih shantih .

atanu
15 March 2010, 02:34 AM
Namaste Atanuji

Means still Advaita is not well understood .
AUM shantih shantih shantih .


More on this.

There is a story of Indra and Virochana approaching Prajapati for the knowledge of That fearless immortal Self (Chandogya U.). First, Prajapati taught "This, that you see in the mirror is Self. Virochana believed Prajapati and never came back. He believed that the the perceived body alone is self. Indra however, questioned and came back again and again and finally, after 101 years, was taught:


VIII-xii-4: Now, where the sight merges in Akasa (inside the eye, i.e., the black pupil of the eye), (there exists) that which is the person in the eye; and the eye is only for (his) seeing. And he who knows ‘I smell this’, is the Atman; the nose is for smelling. And he who knows ‘I speak this’, is the Atman, the organ of speech is for speaking. And he who knows ‘I hear this’, is the Atman; the ear is for hearing.
VIII-xii-5: And he who knows ‘I think this’, is the Atman, the mind is his divine eye. Through this divine eye of the mind he verily sees these desired objects which are in the Brahman-world, and rejoices.
VIII-xii-6: ‘Verily, this is the Atman whom the gods worship. Therefore all the worlds and all the desired objects are held by them. He obtains all the worlds all the desired objects, who having known that Atman (from the teacher and the scriptures) understands it.’ Thus spoke Prajapati – yea, thus spoke Prajapati.
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What a difference in the teaching. What is seen and heard is not Brahman. The one who knows the seeing and the knowing is the Brahman -- and that power is within the intellect. The above example was shown to demonstrate that virochana had blind faith on Prajapati.



Om Namah Shivaya